Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Is CrossFit a Good Way to Lose Weight and Get In Shape?
Episode Date: September 11, 2019“CrossFit won’t just transform your body,” an acquaintance once told me, “it will change everything—who you are, how you view the world, what you think is possible.” I’m a big believer i...n the life-changing power of being fit, but . . . really? I felt like I was being pitched on an MLM, not a workout program. This type of talk is common in the CrossFit universe, which has enjoyed tremendous success in the last decade. There are over 13,000 CrossFit affiliates (gyms) around the world, and CrossFitters are some of the most passionate fitness folk you’ll ever meet. But is it everything the true believers claim it to be? Is it really the best way to get fit? Does it really transform mere “working out” into something transcendent? Or is it just another fad with nothing particularly special to offer other an increased risk of injury and overtraining, as many of its detractors claim? Well, the long story short is this: CrossFit can absolutely help you get in great shape, and depending on the coach you work with, it’s not as dangerous as some people would have you believe. That said, CrossFit is not the best way to gain muscle and strength and lose fat, which is why many people get into it in the first place. Let’s find out why . . . 3:49 - What is CrossFit? 6:55 - What are the positives of CrossFit? 13:11 - What are the negatives of CrossFit? 17:57 - How does CrossFit measure up with gaining muscle and strength? 22:04 - What’s the best way to improve cardio and gain muscle and strength? 23:27 - Is CrossFit good for fat loss? 30:28 - Should I do CrossFit? Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.legionathletics.com/signup/
Transcript
Discussion (0)
Hey, Mike here. And if you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, and if you want to help me help more people get into the best shape of their lives, please do consider supporting my sports nutrition company, Legion Athletics, which produces 100% natural evidence-based health and fitness supplements, including protein powders and protein bars, pre-workout and
post-workout supplements, fat burners, multivitamins, joint support, and more.
Head over to www.LegionAthletics.com now to check it out.
And just to show how much I appreciate my podcast peeps, use the coupon code MFL at checkout and you will
save 10% on your entire order and it'll ship free if you are anywhere in the United States.
And if you're not, it'll ship free if your order is over $100. So again, if you appreciate my work
and if you want to see more of it, please do consider supporting
me so I can keep doing what I love, like producing podcasts like this.
Hello, boys and ghouls.
Mike Matthews here.
Welcome to another episode of the Muscle for Life podcast.
This is an episode that I probably should have recorded some time ago when CrossFit was more popular than it is now back in its heyday, but it is still a
big part of the fitness zeitgeist and is still something I get asked about fairly often. So
better late than never, right? Now, I remember years ago when an acquaintance of mine told me
that CrossFit doesn't just transform your body,
it changes everything. It changes who you are and how you view the world and what you think
is possible. And I'm a big believer in stuff like that, actually, in the life-changing power of
getting and being fit. But really, I mean, I kind of felt like I was being pitched on MLM or something,
not a workout program. And that type of talk is still common in the CrossFit universe, which,
although is downtrending, according to Google Trends, still has enjoyed a tremendous amount
of success and popularity over the last decade or so.
As of this recording, there are over 13,000 CrossFit gyms around the world,
and CrossFitters are still some of the most passionate fitness people you'll ever meet.
But is CrossFit everything the true believers claim it to be? Is it really the best way to get fit? Does it really
transform mere working out into something transcendent? Or is it just another fad with
nothing particularly special to offer other than maybe an increased risk of injury and overtraining
as many of its detractors claim? Well, we're going to get into all that in this
podcast, but the long story short is this. Yes, CrossFit can absolutely help you get in shape,
and depending on the gym that you go to and the coach you work with, it's not as dangerous as
some people would have you believe. That said, CrossFit is not the best way to gain
muscle and strength and lose fat as quickly and efficiently as possible, which is why many people
get into it in the first place. Therefore, many people who get into CrossFit would be better served by doing other things with their workout. So to help you
understand why this is my position, let's start at the top with a quick summary of CrossFit for
anyone who is not familiar with what it entails. So at bottom, CrossFit is a high-intensity
exercise program that focuses on performing a variety of strength and aerobic
exercises ranging from push-ups to sprints and clean and jerks. Now, the exercises are normally
combined into a workout of the day or a WOD, as the initiated like to call them, which typically
last 5 to 15 minutes. Performance is tracked and ranked to encourage friendly competition
and to measure progress. And in most WODs, you are going to do one exercise after another
with no rest in between for a number of rounds. And you're going to do those rounds as quickly
as possible. Now, in other types of WODs, you are going to do as many rounds as possible
while racing against the clock. So for example,
here's a CrossFit workout called the Helen. You do three rounds of the following as quickly as
possible. 400 meter run, 21 kettlebell swings, 12 pull-ups. And here's the Fran. Do the following
as quickly as possible. Three rounds of 21, 15, and nine reps of 95 pound thruster pull-ups.
And here's the Murph. Do the following as fast as possible.
One-mile run, 100 pull-ups, 200 push-ups, 300 squats, followed by another one-mile run. And
in the MRF, you can split up these strength exercises however you like, but you have to start
and finish with one-mile run. Now, people pay buku bucks to do these types of workouts in CrossFit gyms. And the
average CrossFit gym or box, as it's often called, costs anywhere from $100 to $300 per month. And
they're normally pretty well equipped with squat racks, dumbbells, medicine balls, kettlebells,
gymnastic bars, Olympic weightlifting platforms, ropes, rowing machines, and other goodies for
all kinds of exercises like weighted sled pushes, glute ham raises, and more.
And that is one of the great things about CrossFit. Most of the gyms have everything
you need to do proper strength training or at least resistance training workouts. Now,
proper strength training, or at least resistance training workouts. Now, what you do with all that stuff is vitally important, but step one is having the right hardware and enough of it. And most
CrossFit gyms are standouts in this regard. Now, cutesy named workouts and well-stocked
gyms are not why CrossFit has become so popular. Its meteoric rise can be attributed to its culture.
CrossFit is sold as a lifestyle and a transformative experience where you learn to
prioritize your health and your well-being, and you push yourself to do many different things at
a high level of intensity, and where you become a member of a group of like-minded people who are also
trying to become their best selves and who want to see you succeed in doing the same.
And it's great marketing, of course, and is a good segue actually into talking about what is good
about CrossFit. So although it gets a lot of grief for being an expensive way to just
learn how to do Olympic lifts with bad form, get hurt and lose all your gains, and those are things
that we will discuss in this podcast, there are plenty of positives as well. So for example,
CrossFit tells you exactly what to do every day. Now, why is this important? Well, here's how most people work out. They don't
have any real workout plan or at least an overarching well-designed one. And instead,
they just show up at the gym a few, usually different days per week to train whatever
is most interesting or least painful that day. And they do that by just doing a number of randomly chosen exercises for a number
of randomly chosen sets and reps until they run out of time or get bored, and then they leave.
And while that may qualify as exercise and is definitely better than nothing, it is not training,
which requires logical structure and orderly progression toward a specific goal. And exercise
doesn't produce much in the way of long-term results. If you really want to transform your
body composition and your health, you are going to have to do a lot of training. And so when you
show up to a CrossFit class, the instructor will tell you exactly what to do, how to do it, and
when to stop. And if the instructor also knows a thing or two about programming, this means that every major
muscle group in your body will get its fair share of punishment and you will progress over time.
Now, CrossFit instructors can also customize workouts to fit your personal abilities and
needs. So for example, if your upper body strength sucks,
they can help you swap out, let's say the barbell bench press for something that you can do or do
better, like maybe pushups or dumbbell presses. And if you suck at running, then you can do a
walk-run combo or maybe some other type of cardio that you are better at, like biking or rowing.
Now, most CrossFit gyms also keep track of how
you are progressing in your workouts, which of course is essential for avoiding plateaus in
strength and muscle gain. If you are not tracking what you are doing in the gym, you will get stuck,
guaranteed. And if you haven't been tracking for some time, you probably are stuck.
Another positive aspect of CrossFit is
it revolves around barbell training. Now, if you are familiar with my teachings, you know that I'm
a big fan of barbell training and compound exercises in general. As I often say, your
number one goal as a natural weightlifter should be increasing your whole body strength. And the
best way to do that is to focus the majority of your efforts on barbell exercises and other compound exercises that involve multiple joints and muscle groups,
like the squat bench press, overhead press, and deadlift. Now, if you look around your local gym,
you will notice that many people do not prioritize or even do those types of exercises very much.
not prioritize or even do those types of exercises very much. And that is one of the major reasons why so many of them don't seem to make any progress, why they seem to look exactly the
same month after month, and in some cases, year after year. Now, if you go join a CrossFit gym,
one of the first things you are going to learn how to do is squat with a barbell on your back, bench press a barbell, overhead press a barbell, and deadlift. And hopefully, you're going to learn how to do is squat with a barbell on your back, bench press a barbell,
overhead press a barbell, and deadlift. And hopefully you're going to learn how to do these
things with proper form. And that is the right way to introduce yourself to weightlifting. And I would
say resistance training in general. Another good thing about CrossFit is it pushes you to work
harder than you might on your own. And this is important because
most people hate being uncomfortable. And the more uncomfortable they are, the more they want to
immediately stop doing whatever is causing them discomfort. And that type of mentality is not fly
in CrossFit. Although it can be taken to extremes and it is not necessarily a good default attitude to have toward your
training. The no pain, no gain attitude of CrossFit is one of the reasons it works. When
you do a CrossFit workout, you can be expected to be pushed to go heavier, harder, faster,
or longer. And when you know your name is going up on a scoreboard, you're probably
going to want to give it everything you've got. Now, not everyone needs or wants that kind of
hyper-competitive environment, but for those who tend to struggle to stay motivated to show up
every day or every other day and work out, it definitely can help them stay on track.
Another positive aspect of CrossFit is it encourages you to take your fitness seriously
because when you join a CrossFit gym, you are going to be surrounded by a lot of people
who genuinely love fitness.
They are not only going to put a lot more time into exercise than the average person,
they're also going to generally eat better, supplement better, and have fewer unhealthy habits like smoking, drinking, and under sleeping. And as the old
cliche goes, you are the average of the five people you spend the most time around. So when
you spend enough time around ultra fit and ultra healthy types of people, some of their drive and dedication will inevitably wear off on you,
making it easier to achieve your health and fitness goals.
Hey, quickly, before we carry on, if you are liking my podcast, would you please help spread
the word about it? Because no amount of marketing or advertising gimmicks can match
the power of word of mouth. So if you are enjoying this episode and you think of someone else who
might enjoy it as well, please do tell them about it. It really helps me. And if you are going to
post about it on social media, definitely tag me so I can say thank you. You can find me on Instagram at MuscleForLifeFitness,
Twitter at MuscleForLife, and Facebook at MuscleForLifeFitness.
All right, so now let's talk about the negatives. Let's talk about what's bad about CrossFit.
So let's start by saying that compared to the overwhelming number of nonsensical workout programs out there,
you can certainly do far worse than CrossFit. If you want to be kind of strong and kind of good,
maybe not so good at Olympic lifts with decent endurance and flexibility, and if a class
environment is important to you, then CrossFit may be perfect for you. However,
if you want to lose fat, build muscle, gain strength, and get healthy as quickly and
efficiently, and I would say for most people as enjoyably as possible, CrossFit is not the best
way to go. Why? Well, first, CrossFit simply isn't the most efficient way to get fit. I know its marketing
is laden with buzzwords like functional fitness and general fitness training, full body workouts,
metabolic conditioning, Metcon, general physical preparedness, GPP. When you really look at what
you are doing in CrossFit and what fitness means, like I'll get to a dictionary
definition in a second, it becomes clear that there are better ways of going about it. Now,
understand the idea with CrossFit is that by performing a wide variety of exercises,
you are going to maximize your overall fitness. And doing that is the best way to have not just a fit and healthy physique,
but an aesthetic one as well, a muscular, lean, defined one. Well, let's unpack that, shall we?
Let's start with the dictionary definition of fitness. So the Oxford English Dictionary defines
fitness as the condition of being physically fit and healthy. And fit is defined as in good health
because of regular physical exercise. So using those simple definitions, let's look at how we
could go about measuring our fitness level. Well, we could test our muscular strength, we could test
our cardiovascular conditioning, we could test our body composition. We could test our flexibility.
We could test our metabolic health. Additionally, as we got fitter, we would expect to get stronger.
We would expect to develop better cardiovascular endurance. We would expect to become more muscular
and less fat, up to a point, of course, and we would become more flexible and we would improve
our body's ability to use food for fueling and regenerating itself. Well, in CrossFit lingo,
fitness, the word, has a different definition and a short-sighted one that the founder or co-founder of CrossFit invented, and this is Greg Glassman,
by the way, and that he claims is the first meaningful, measurable way to define the word.
So his definition for fitness is increased work capacity across broad time and modal domains.
So basically, according to Glassman, you're as fit as you can do CrossFit. Yeah,
clever and convenient, but also silly because you are not as fit as you can do CrossFit.
And if you want a simple case in point here, go watch some CrossFit videos online or head into a
local CrossFit gym, and you're going to see a lot of weak, overweight, inflexible people
role-playing as Spartans as they do kipping, which are these fake, easy, cheating pull-ups,
and finishing their wads with a quick visit to Uncle Pukies, as they like to say. My point is,
many of these people are not fit, and I'm not saying that to rag on them for not being
in great shape. Again, they're in there, they're putting in the work, they are trying to improve
their fitness, and I respect that regardless of their current circumstances. However, I am ragging
on the unfit CrossFit snobs who think that because we're not part of their WOD squad,
we are physically inferior in some way. I mean,
it's kind of silly. In many cases, it's like, well, wait a minute here. I can outlift, outrun,
and outstretch you. I'm bigger and leaner than you, but you're a member of the fitness elite
because you can bumble your way through spasms that kind of resemble Olympic lifts and do air
squats until you toss your paleo cookies. Therefore, I would like to
make a simple proposition here in this podcast. An activity is as beneficial to your fitness as
it builds strength and aerobic endurance and improves your body composition, flexibility,
and metabolic health. Now, how does CrossFit measure up against that definition? Well,
How does CrossFit measure up against that definition? Well, let's take a look first at CrossFit and muscle and strength gain and cardiovascular endurance. Now, it's often claimed
that CrossFit workouts are the best way to simultaneously gain muscle and strength and
increase your endurance. And this theory seems plausible at first glance because of the nature
of the training, right? It's essentially high intensity interval weightlifting and cardiovascular training,
but that claim quickly unravels when you consult the scientific literature. Unfortunately,
by trying to do everything at the same time, you end up with subpar results across the board. And
this has been demonstrated in a number of studies. For example,
researchers from RMIT University worked with well-trained athletes in 2009 and found that,
combining resistance, exercise, and cardio in the same session may disrupt genes for anabolism.
They also found that doing cardio before resistance training suppressed anabolic hormones such as IGF the muscles and impairs their ability to adapt
to either. And that, of course, is suboptimal for maximizing muscle and strength gains and
aerobic fitness. This is generally referred to in the literature as the interference effect.
You might have heard that before. And it has been demonstrated in a number of studies that have
come to the same conclusion that training for both cardiovascular endurance and muscle strength
simultaneously impairs your gains on both fronts. And this seems to be especially true with running,
by the way. If you want to maximally interfere with your muscle and strength gains, in particular
your lower body muscle and strength gains, you want to do a lot of running. Now, does that mean that CrossFit will not help you get
stronger or will not improve your endurance? No, of course not. But if you want to get big and
strong or improve your aerobic capacity as quickly and efficiently as possible, science says that
CrossFit is not the best way to do either of those things.
Therefore, it is not surprising that your average CrossFitters are not particularly big, strong,
or cardiovascularly fit. In fact, the only CrossFitters I've personally known who had
exceptional strength size or cardio were doing quite a bit of traditional weightlifting and
strength training in particular,
and cardio training in addition to their CrossFit workouts. I remember one guy who used to train in a gym that I worked out in in Florida, and he would come early. I would get there 6.30 or 7,
and he would be doing heavy weightlifting workouts and then would later go do his CrossFit workouts.
He was on a lot of drugs and he was jacked and strong.
It was impressive.
But that's what you will often find when you see super fit people who are into CrossFit.
And you'll see stuff like that in the CrossFit games, of course, which is kind of like their Super Bowl.
Quite a few of those guys and gals have very impressive physiques, and that would at least imply that CrossFit can
deliver the goods, right? Well, keep in mind that CrossFit is a professional sport. There is money
on the line, and it requires a very high level of physicality and physical performance. And that means then,
of course, that vitamin S will be in abundant supply. And that might sound cynical to you,
but do not think for a second that you or I or anyone we know could naturally achieve the
combined levels of strength, muscularity, and leanness that we see in the CrossFit games.
All right, so if CrossFit is not necessarily the most efficient or effective way to get fit,
what is? What is the best way to gain muscle and strength and improve your cardio as quickly as
possible? Well, research shows that the best way to build muscle and strength and improve your aerobic endurance is to train them separately, meaning in separate training sessions,
ideally on separate days. And, you know, ideally it would mean focusing exclusively on just one
for an extended period of time, you know, no cardio while you are lean bulking, for example, and then maybe a
maintenance level of resistance training, just a couple workouts per week to maintain muscle and
at least a bit of your strength while you focus on improving your cardiovascular endurance.
Now, there's nothing special to that approach, of course. That's just basic periodization,
where you are focusing on one primary goal or objective for a period of time
followed by another. So when you're lean bulking, you're focusing on just maximizing your muscle and
strength gain. And then when you are reducing your resistance training volume to a maintenance level,
so you can put a lot more time into, let's say it's your sprinting, you're focusing primarily on
just getting better at sprinting while staving off muscle and strength loss. All right, let's say it's your sprinting, you're focusing primarily on just getting better at sprinting while staving off muscle and strength loss. All right, let's talk about fat loss now.
Let's talk about CrossFit and fat loss. And many people think that because CrossFit workouts are
so challenging, they must be a great way to burn a ton of calories or burn a ton of fat.
And yeah, not so much. CrossFit workouts are high intensity, but most
of them are also short. And that's why research shows that women can expect to burn 60 to 120
calories per CrossFit workout, and men can expect to burn about 110 to 170 calories per session.
And while that is actually impressive, given the duration of most of the workouts, let's
remember that you can burn the same amount of calories with like 30 to 40 minutes of
walking, the easiest thing you could possibly do.
And those numbers that I just shared with you are also rather negligible in the greater
context of weight loss because a pound of fat contains about 3,500 calories. And you may need
to burn a bit more than that to lose a pound of fat, but you can start with just the assumption
of 3,500 calories of energy. That's the size of the calorie deficit that you're going to need
to achieve over whatever period of time to lose a pound of fat. Another downside of CrossFit is it
makes it easier to overtrain. Now, many CrossFitters pride themselves on how hardcore they are and how
hardcore their workouts are and how much they can punish themselves before puking their guts out and
collapsing from exhaustion. And that might sound cool in theory. And yes, it definitely
requires above average levels of physical and mental toughness, but it's also the fast track
to overtraining, which then can lead to serious health problems, including general fatigue,
depression, restlessness, loss of appetite, and more. Now, just to make the point with some hyperbole,
a rather extreme example of this is a man named McKimba Mims, who was awarded $300,000 in damages from a local CrossFit gym and his trainer for injuries he sustained during a CrossFit workout
back in 2005. And those injuries included rhabdomyolysis, which is often just referred to as rhabdo. And
that's a condition where severely and rapidly damaged muscle tissue is then released into the
bloodstream and it can lead to kidney failure. It's serious. The workout of the day or the wad
that almost killed that dude Mims was renamed the McKimba and categorized as a children's workout. Ha ha ha,
sick burn, bro. And Rabdo doesn't just happen to wimpy, unfit people either. For example,
in January, 2011, 13 football players at the university of Iowa were hospitalized with Rabdo
after doing a workout that included 100 squats with 50 of their one
rep max that does not sound fun it wasn't a crossfit workout but it was similar in that it
had these guys performing compound lifts for high reps under extreme fatigue so here's the bottom
line if you are training to the point of complete physical exhaustion multiple times per week,
and especially if you're doing this with resistance training workouts, you will end up
overtraining. It is only a matter of time. It's not a question of if, but when. Yet another downside
to CrossFit is it makes it easier to get hurt. And this is one of the first things I
noticed about people I knew personally who started doing CrossFit years ago when everyone was doing
it. See, many of these people I knew started getting hurt. Sprains, joint injuries, pulled
muscles, and even torn ligaments were pretty common. And this is not surprising. Research shows that for every
1,000 hours of CrossFit, there are around two to four injuries. And that is similar to Olympic
weightlifting and powerlifting, but still about two to four times higher than bodybuilding,
which produces on average one injury per 1,000 hours. Now, your risk of injury can actually be much higher than
those numbers depending on your coach and your programming. So for example, if you are told to
do compound exercises like the deadlift squat or snatch, you'd better know what you're doing.
And especially if you're going to be doing them under high levels of fatigue or
going to be doing AMRAP as many reps as possible sets. You see, if your coach hasn't taught you
or doesn't insist on proper form or pushes you to go heavier or further than you're comfortable with
or pushes you to go to absolute muscle failure, which is pretty common in many CrossFit workouts, whether it's
intended to be that way or not, it's common in practice, then the likelihood of injury goes
way up. And even if you have a good coach, there's only so much he or she can do because
performing compound exercises and especially heavy compound exercises when you are already tired is just a fantastic way to get hurt
as is doing them to absolute muscle failure. So when you are doing an AMRAP set of, let's say,
a deadlift, if you go to the point where the bar no longer moves and you got to drop it,
your risk of injury goes up. Similarly, as fatigue sets in, research shows that form starts to go
out. It just does. And one of the main reasons for this is our awareness of what we're doing
with our bodies and the position of our bodies suffers. That of course sets us up for an injury
because we don't exactly realize that our technique is breaking down and we try to just
power through it. And that is one of the reasons why the American College of Sports Medicine
recommends at least three minutes of rest in between heavy weightlifting sets, which would
generally be in the rep range of one to maybe eight reps. And this is something that Dr. Stuart
McGill has commented on as well. And in
case you are not familiar with him, he is generally considered one of the foremost experts on spine
biomechanics. And I actually had him on the podcast some time ago to talk about back pain.
It was a great interview, but here's what he had to say. He said, the problem has to do with fatigue
and going to failure. Some exercises are conducive to this and others are
not. And he puts Olympic lifts in the not category. Further, he said repeating movements where form is
compromised with fatigue really does not fit the philosophy of Olympic lifting to reduce injury
risk and enhance performance. So while you are not guaranteed to get hurt doing CrossFit, you are definitely at a higher risk
of injury if you follow the regular protocols and practices. And that brings us to the simple
question of, should you do CrossFit? And the answer is, it depends, of course, the famous
ambivalent answer, right? It actually does though. It depends on your goals. If you're looking to get
fitter and have some fun with a group of like-minded people, and if you have a good coach, and if you know how to avoid
overtraining and injury, then CrossFit is not a bad choice. In fact, it might be the best choice
for you. But if you are looking to gain muscle and strength, lose fat, and increase your aerobic
fitness as quickly and efficiently and as safely as possible,
then CrossFit probably is not for you. You would be better served by a more traditional approach
of strength and or cardiovascular training programmed intelligently and periodized properly.
So my final thoughts here. On the whole, I think CrossFit has done a lot of
good. It's done a lot more good than bad. It has motivated millions of people to start working out.
It has introduced them to barbell training and pushed them to lift some heavier weights than
they normally would. And it has helped these people lose fat and build muscle and get stronger
and get healthier. But on the other hand, it definitely has significant drawbacks, and it is not the safest or most effective way to do any of those
things that I just mentioned. I think it is best for people who are looking for something more
akin to a sport than a well-designed, optimized training regimen and people who like competition and want to just see
how hard they can push themselves in their workouts. However, I wouldn't recommend it to
people who are more interested in gaining some muscle, getting strong, getting lean, staying lean,
improving their aerobic fitness, and doing all that without having to kill themselves in the gym. For those people,
I'd recommend a more traditional approach to strength and cardio training.
Hey, Mike here. And if you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, and if you want to help me help more people get into the best shape of their lives,
please do consider supporting my sports nutrition company,
Legion Athletics, which produces 100% natural evidence-based health and fitness supplements,
including protein powders and protein bars, pre-workout and post-workout supplements,
fat burners, multivitamins, joint support, and more. Head over to www.legionathletics.com now to check it out.
And just to show how much I appreciate my podcast peeps, use the coupon code MFL at checkout and
you will save 10% on your entire order. And it'll ship free if you are anywhere in the United States. And if you're not,
it'll ship free if your order is over a hundred dollars. So again, if you appreciate my work and
if you want to see more of it, please do consider supporting me so I can keep doing what I love,
like producing podcasts like this.