Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Jason McCarthy on Transforming Our Body and Life with Rucking

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

In this podcast, I chat with Jason McCarthy, the CEO and founder of GORUCK, a company that creates rucking gear and hosts events to build communities and empower people. This interview isn’t about how to get started with rucking (I already have one about that). Instead it’s about Jason’s story, including why he started GORUCK and how it developed and grew over time. While GORUCK sells loads of high-quality rucking gear now (rucksacks, footwear, and apparel tested by Special Forces combat veterans), and has hosted over 1,000 events worldwide, things weren’t always so peachy for the company, or for Jason personally. In this episode, we discuss . . . Jason’s Special Forces training and serving in Iraq Being a team player being part of something bigger than yourself The importance of investing in relationships and how he worked through marriage issues How he got started with designing rucksacks and turned GORUCK from a hobby into a business How he faced certain death in the business and figured out how to build it The origin of the rucking and tactical events he hosts And more . . . So, if you want to hear an inspiring, all-American story of turning an aspirational dream into a community-building business, check out this episode! Timestamps: 12:48 - Why did you decide to go with the name Go Ruck? 26:40 - How did you go from an idea to a product? 50:29 - What do you do at these events? 54:15 - Did it surprise you how much attention you got after holding events? 57:40 - What are some insights that led you to getting back with your ex-wife and starting a family? Mentioned on the Show: Books by Mike Matthews: https://legionathletics.com/products/books/ Jason McCarthy’s Website: https://www.goruck.com/ GORUCK Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/goruck/ Want free workout and meal plans? Download my science-based diet and training templates for men and women: https://legionathletics.com/text-sign-up/

Hey there, and welcome to Muscle for Life. I'm Mike Matthews, your host. Thanks for joining me today, where I chat with Jason McCarthy, who is the CEO and the founder of GoRuck, which is a company that creates rucking gear. And if you're not sure what rucking is, well, I'll leave you in the mystery. You're going to learn in the podcast, of course. And Jason's company hosts events, the podcast, of course. And Jason's company hosts events, rucking events, to build communities and to help people improve their fitness and to empower them to improve other areas of their lives. It's a pretty cool story of how he came to form this company and how he went from basically failing. It was not going well in the beginning to figuring out a formula for making it work. And it had everything to do with connecting to people on a very personal level. And this

interview is not about how to ruck, how to get started rucking. I actually recorded one on that. I think it came out several months ago. If you just search my YouTube channel or podcast feed for ruck, you will find it. And that episode actually led to this one because somebody from Jason's team came across the podcast or maybe is a regular listener. And then he heard my Rucking episode and reached out and asked if I wanted to have Jason on the show. And I said, sure. And in this interview, Jason and I talk about his experience in Iraq as a special forces soldier, a bit of his origin story that led to GORUCK. We talk about the importance

of investing heavily into relationships and how that helped Jason not only build his business, but also fix his marriage. And he has a very unique story there that he shares. Him and his wife got a divorce and then they got remarried and now they are doing well with the family. Interesting story. I've never known anybody that remarried the person they divorced. And so I thought that was interesting. Jason talks about how he started the business

and many of the obstacles he had to overcome and how he successfully turned it from a hobby side hustle at best to a successful business that provides a great lifestyle for him and his family. Also, if you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my health and fitness books, including the number one bestselling weightlifting books for men and women in the world, Bigger Leaner Stronger and Thinner Leaner Stronger, as well as the leading flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now, these books have sold well over 1 million copies and have helped thousands of people build their best body ever. And you can find them on all major

online retailers like Audible, Amazon, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play, as well as in select Barnes & Noble stores. And I should also mention that you can get any of the audiobooks 100% free when you sign up for an Audible account. And this is a great way to make those pockets of downtime, like commuting, meal prepping, and cleaning more interesting, entertaining, and productive. And so if you want to take Audible up on this offer, and if you want to get one of my audio books for free, just go to www.buylegion.com slash audible and sign up for your account. So again, if you appreciate my work, and if you want to see more of it, and if you want to learn time-proven and evidence-based strategies for losing fat,

building muscle, and getting healthy, and strategies that work for anyone and everyone, regardless of age or circumstances, please do consider picking up one of my best-selling books, Bigger Leaner Stronger for Men, Thinner Leaner Stronger for Women, and The Shredded Chef for my favorite fitness-friendly recipes. Hey, Jason, thanks for taking the the shredded chef for my favorite fitness friendly recipes. Hey, Jason, thanks for taking the time to talk with me today. Awesome. Glad to be here, man. Yeah. Yeah. So this was kind of, I guess, a serendipitous connection because several, I think it's a couple of months ago now, actually, I released an episode, just a monologue episode,

I released an episode, just a monologue episode, me talking about rucking. And I thought it was interesting and useful. And I wasn't sure how well it was going to be received. I thought it would do fine, like most episodes do fine. But it did a lot better than fine. And I got a lot of good feedback on it. And looking back, I understand because a lot of the people in my orbit are looking for not hacks or shortcuts per se, but they are looking for ways to get more out of the time that they put into their fitness. And that's how I was presenting rucking from a cardiovascular exercise, light intensity,

maybe you could get up to a moderate intensity endurance exercise standpoint. Yeah. We'll talk about that. You can get pretty high up there, but yeah, it's like ruck the kids, ruck the dog, ruck to work, ruck to the grocery store. It's great. Yeah. I mean, it's like if you're going to be walking and I've talked about walking as I think one of the most underrated forms of just simple exercise, particularly simple cardio, that's very useful if you are in a calorie deficit, for example, because it's not hard to do. It doesn't require anything in the way of recovery. So it doesn't cut into your weightlifting or strength training and it burns more calories than most people think. So I was kind of piggybacking on

that with rucking and saying, Hey, if you're going to go for walks and I would recommend that you might as well throw some weight on your back basically, and make it more physically challenging and dramatically increase the calorie burning and increase the cardiovascular demand, but not so much that it is now counterproductive. Like if, for example, you are multitasking your walk with work calls, right? So I do have an upright bike and I just hop on the bike for 30 minutes a day to do like moderate intensity. But I almost always, if I can, I save whatever calls I have to do for the day. I usually always have to do at least one or two. I'll save them for that. So I'll hop on the bike and do my calls. I have to do it anyway, but many people listening, they go out for a walk instead. And so rucking resonated because it's an easy way to make that walk more productive, so to speak. So a lot of people, they just hadn't occurred to them. They're like, oh, that's cool. Yeah,

that's a great idea. And somebody who works with you then reached out to me. And I think I mentioned your equipment on the podcast. I think that's why. So here we are. And instead of talking more about rucking, I'm sure that this conversation will inevitably go to some more specifics in terms of techniques and ways to get into it even further or get more out of it. I thought what we would do is make this discussion more about your story. How did you get into this? Why did you decide to start the company? And then see where that takes us because I do those kinds of conversations here and there. Often, actually, it's just me talking about, hey, here's some interesting business advice that I

have to share that's worked well for me and my businesses. And those episodes, I always get good feedback because although obviously this is primarily a health and fitness podcast, I have a lot of people following me who are entrepreneurial or who are executives in businesses or just ambitious people who want to accomplish more in their career. So if you're American, being an entrepreneur is in your blood. I mean, go West, paradise is there, right? Get in your wagons and head out there. I mean, it's just a certain mindset of risk-taking and just going for it. I was a super, super accidental entrepreneur. This was not in a business title sense. Enlisted into the Army after 9-11 because of 9-11 because I was really, really mad at

what happened to us. I had a contract to go through special forces training, which is great as long as you keep passing, which is easier said than done. But I made it through, thankfully, and became a Green Beret and then went to war in Iraq and then did some time in Africa. And I guess go ruck as a thing. I mean, part of the thing on special forces training, I didn't really know what it was. I thought it was pushing logs over your head and flutter kicks

in the middle of the night and rolling around in the dirt and stuff and them screaming at you to quit. And frankly, it's nothing like that at all. It's a rucksack on your back and you're moving through the woods in North Carolina. At first as an individual, because to be a great teammate, first you got to be an individual, which is kind of entrepreneurial in nature as well. You've got to have something to do or something to say to start anything out. My wife at the time, because we're going through the company story, my wife at the time was in the CIA. So she was a case officer and she was posted to West Africa. And after my tour in Iraq, I went and vacationed over on Christmas leave over to a war-torn West Africa. And I got over there and it was kind of, it was odd for its familiarity.

Like it felt like a war zone kind of, but there weren't gun trucks and there was a lot more color over there. And so it was just kind of, I was still in that mindset. And so I made some base fortifications, quote, quote, to her house and I made her a go bag, right? So a go bag is what we would use in war. We put it in the trunk of the Humvee and it would just had extra supplies, right? So bombs, guns, batteries, food, water, ammunition, whatever, take your pick, right? And in case your vehicle's disabled and you have to fight, so you have extra supplies. I made that for her because she was driving around all day, every day by herself over there. And I'm like, hey, if your vehicle's disabled, here's a pair of running shoes.

Here's a solar-powered radio. Here's some water. Leave it in the thing. And there's a different set of needs that you have, especially when you're a white female in Africa. And so there's just some other stuff that was relevant for where she was. We were trying to figure out... My plan was to transition over to the paramilitary side of the agency. And through her, I'd met those people and that process had already started. But I was trying to figure out what I was going to do when I got out of the army, but moved to live with her.

And while I was on that nice vacation down to visit her, she's like, oh, you should do the go-ruck thing. And so with a simple, innocent sentence like that, and my wife's name's Emily, that kind of launched the idea. And really, I just kind of needed a hobby of sorts. So I went back and I was still training and doing special forces stuff, but I didn't have a family over there. I was a single geographic bachelor, I should say. And so just kind of started along the train of, okay, well, what would a rucksack look like and what would it do and what's the brand? And we always liked the name Go Ruck. And so that just kind of became the thing to build around. And kind of what she

meant in West Africa was that I should train people up on the security posture or the special forces way of life. Because it's kind of an odd thing to people who haven't been a part of that or something as impactful. But once you go through something like special forces training and you join that community, it's in your blood until the day you die. It's impossible to divorce yourself from it. It's like your hometown or your family or your best friend growing up or whatever, no matter how far you get from it, it's still just a part of who you are everywhere you go. And so those became kind of, they were challenges as a hobby at first because I didn't have to,

I had a job, Emily had a job and all that stuff, you know, which is oftentimes, well, I'll give people the advice that if you really want to start a company, then keep your existing job and work two jobs and just take one paycheck, right. The one that's actually paying and see if something will actually work in the market. And, you know, so I had all these plans for the bag and how that was all going to go. And it just kind of didn't work because when I came back to move in with Emily, life got a little bit harder. We'd been married for almost five years and never lived together. So our marriage started to come crashing down. And so everything kind of got put on hold. And

I'm going through that stereotypical veteran transition, Murphy strikes, if it can go wrong, it will go wrong. But the idea for Go Rucks survived on that, the plane trip back home, if you will. And I'm crashing on my buddy's couch in the East Village in Manhattan and stuff like that. It remained a hobby. I'll interject with a couple of questions. First is the name. Why the name? Well, you know, a go bag or a bug out bag or a go ruck, it's just kind of slang for what we would put in the trunk of the Humvee. I mean, it takes on different names and it just kind of go ruck sounds better than go bag. The other part of it is to ruck. It's a verb. It's a ruck is a rucksack, right? A backpack to ruck is to move with a rucksack on. It's

rucking. So it's just, that is just common. It's how you describe things in the army. Like you don't camp in the army, you bivouac, right? You don't backpack, you ruck, right? And so these things were second nature to me at that point. I mean, that's the language that we use. And, you know, it's not something that had ever really been introduced into the that point. And that's the language that we use. And it's not something that had ever really been introduced into the civilian universe. And so there's a bit of an education that comes along with that, which is kind of good and bad. But I liked the sort of play on words, like a noun, a verb. It's really common in the military and it sounds pretty cool. Yeah. It's the imperative mood, right? It's go rock telling people go do this.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's also kind of a command without being a prick about it. No, it's like go rock, man. Right. Go do it. It's not just a thing. It's not just an abstract concept. We kind of live our lives like that. We want to run a company that inspires and without being pricks about it says, man, go rock. It'll be awesome. Yeah. That's how I understood it when I saw it. I actually didn't know the noun meaning at first. And then when I looked into it more, I was like, oh, okay. But when I first saw the name, I liked it because, and I understood it in that sense. And I thought that that's, it's the right mood for fitness. Yeah. For people to go do something. And something

else you mentioned is that I totally agree with and is something that I maybe have commented on just randomly, but that is if you're going to be a great teammate, you have to be a great individual. And I think that that concept applies to any team in life. And I'd be curious to hear your thoughts and just let you expound on that. Like for example, take a marriage, that's a team. A family is a little team. Take if you are working in a company,

you're part of a team there, that's a group. Any group activity, I mean, I think you could actually expand that out and say society, a high functioning society would comprise a team or would work like a team in certain ways. And I mean, I don't want to go too far off into tangent land, but I've talked about one of the downfalls of democracy, for example, and especially our current situation is

how are you supposed to have a high functioning society with so many dysfunctional people? Like if you have people who can't even make the right decisions in their own life and they are experiencing mostly negative outcomes in their own life, how are you supposed to make a great society with those types of people? And why would you even want them to have a say in how the society functions if they can't even make their own shit function where their interests are at stake, their ox is gored, and they still can't make it work. And then you expect them to be able to extend themselves out to the social level and make decisions that are good for the greater group of people. It just doesn't work. the greater group of people. It just doesn't work. Well, I think we partially have to show a more viable alternative, right? I mean, it's kind of like, I know for a fact that operating

as part of something bigger than myself is a more worthwhile existence. And it's very tempting and frankly, very easy to kind of point out all the negatives that are out there. I mean, they're everywhere, right? I mean, I think the way that modern society has promoted the me culture, I mean, everything is I. Think about the way that language is used. iPhone, iPad, I, everything, me, me, me, right?

It's a mirror. They're moving in sync. And when you look at even guys in special forces, it's like you've got a bunch of guys that have done incredible things as individuals, but who submit. They submit to something that's bigger than themselves. And you've got a lot of guys that could be lone wolves, but there's a lot more power. in America as the stars and stripes, red, white, and blue, just as a concept, free, all this stuff, right? It still inspires across the entire country this sense of allegiance, this sense of I

belong to something bigger than myself. And so there is a way to kind of inspire more people to say, well, what does that actually mean, right? of inspire more people to say, well, what does that actually mean? Right. And so that's part of our goal and our mission at GoRuck is to show what real world communities look like and to show what it looks like. Yes, to train ourselves harder, to read a book, to think critically, to be physically fit, to go outside, to be a part of a family, a community, a team, and be a positive member,

to provide value to the tribe, if you will. And so I like what you were saying earlier about everything is a team, right? There's a lot more value in that if we really try to give more to whatever team we're talking about. A marriage is absolutely a team. Now, you can be single by yourself, a lone wolf, until the end of time. For me personally, and I don't want to cast judgment, for me personally, though, that

would not be as fulfilling as being married to Emily and having three great kids. And yeah, it's like a lot of times it's, hey, you want to be right or you want to be married? And it's like, well, I want to be married because it's worth it. And that's really fulfilling to be a part of something bigger than myself. And then it's really fulfilling to have neighbors that, and we kind of support each other. And the pandemic has been great for that, right? I mean, you know, it's coming together outside at Thanksgiving or it's, hey, I've got an extra roll of toilet paper. Here you go. The historical definition of a tribe was you would

share food and defense, right? And that's kind of, you know, there's elements of that that we think we're so modernized and we think that we can just ignore the laws of antiquity, but they're embedded into our DNA. We get a lot of fulfillment out of being a part of a tribe. It's who we are. It's how we survived and thrived as a species. And so it's really hard

to put that phone down. It's all about how many likes I got, me, me, me, or all of that kind of stuff and kind of shut your brain off to that and take some deep breaths and submit to something that doesn't really operate like that, but it's really rewarding. And so what we want to do is just kind of not say, hey, burn down your phone forever. We're not anti all of that that, but it's really rewarding. And so what we want to do is just kind of not say, hey, burn down your phone forever. We're not anti all of that stuff, but there is an element of balance. And it's just, to me, it's just gone a little bit too far. You're not the next Ted Kaczynski. It's just gone too far. It's just way out of whack, right?

If you go and read some of the stuff that he had to say about technology, I think he had some good points. He was a very intelligent guy and well-spoken guy. He just had the wrong solution. But anyway. Yeah, I mean, you can go back in all of these. I mean, you can pull out quotes from anybody, none of which I will do because I don't want to be associated with them.

But these really smart, not democratic leaders that for a flash in time seem like they're the next great thing. And then all of a sudden, they turn out to be a total tyrant. And so I believe in democracy. I think there is a check to it, but I also think that we get the leaders we deserve and we need to essentially not view ourselves at this time, this place, this exact moment as the only time, place, and moment. I think we're still riding on the wave of the greatest

generation and subsequent generations. And what we do will really echo into the future through the children that we raise. And so I just view it as very generational. And I really want our generation to start doing even more for what we can for the values that we hold dear in America. Yeah, I totally agree. I think that take it further and say, we don't just get the government we deserve, but we ultimately get the world that we deserve, I think. And I also agree that we will see, I guess, over the course of our lifetimes, how all of this plays out. I think there are positive things happening. There are negative things happening. I guess that's always the case. So we'll see whichever wins out. Ultimately, I'd say I'm a long-term optimist simply because, not so much because that's what I want to believe, but I think it's

historically literate. I think if we look at the general trajectory of our species, it is upward. I think it's hard to argue against that, but we have these periods where things dip heavily, precipitously, and then we somehow figure out how to kind of loop back around and then turn that into a higher level of prosperity or... We're going to have to figure out a way to make peace with technology being humans. That's not going to be solved in one generation. And by peace, I mean, how do I live a fulfilling life and still have something that's more addictive than heroin in my pocket everywhere that I go. And how does that evolve over time? I don't know. We didn't get to Blade Runner unless you really want to, or Johnny Mnemonic, or Total Recall, but these have been predicted for-

I think Brave New World is more where we're going. I think it's 80% Brave New World with maybe some 1984 and Animal Farm and Handmaid's Tale and a few other dystopian. Now you kind of mix those all together. That's the remaining 20%. Yeah. Clockwork orange thrown in for good measure. Yeah. But again, well, I guess we'll have to see. And ultimately I do think that I agree with you that the solution, if there is a solution, although I'm not a very utopian person, so I believe there are certain problems, especially deep problems related to human nature that probably don't have a solution, at least available maybe in the future. I don't know.

I think people who absolutely implicitly believe that every problem can be solved are actually probably dangerous people who would be the ones to implement the brave new world. But I think that if there is a solution to many of these problems, and if we are going to live in a better world 20, 30, 50 years from now, it has to result from improving people as individuals. I do not think it's going to come from a top-down hierarchical. I do not think, for example, that a political ideology is going to solve it. I do not think that trying communism again is going to work. I do not think that going for an all-out, no-holds-barred democracy is going to work. I do not think that going for an all-out,

no-holds-barred democracy is going to work. That's never worked in history. And people now, I would say, fundamentally are probably not in much better shape for talking in, again, the deep roots of our nature than they were a long time ago. And if we go in that direction of full, no checks and balances, no holds barred democracy, then I think Plato will be vindicated again. It's just going to end in chaos. But what we can do, and this is something that resonates with me personally, because it's something I'm trying to do in my work, is just help people individually become better. And I've chosen to do it through fitness.

And I like that because it has so many other effects, positive effects in people's lives. And I respect anybody else who's doing something to help people on a one-to-one basis, improve their circumstances and their abilities and their self-confidence and so forth. Because I think that ultimately, again, if we are going to live in a better world, that's the only way we're going to get there. We can't just sit back and hope that our favorite politicians are going to figure it all out for us or our favorite think tank elitists are going to figure it all out. But that's how it should work, right? I mean, you've got these... The good news is when you train one person up, those people have people in their life as well, right? And we're mostly like

children. We view the examples that people set by what they do and all this talk, talk, talk, talk, and hate, hate, hate on social media and stuff. I mean, it's just really off-putting. But if you have someone who's influential in your life and you see that they get a lot of value out of... America loves the turnaround stories, right? I used to weigh this, now I weigh this, now I have a lot more confidence and all that stuff and I can go do the things that I want to do that make me happier. And so you train up one person is my point. Well, that person has friends. It's called force multipliers in the military, but this is kind of an ideological example-based force multiplier, where if you go and you train up one person and then they impact others to also make positive

changes in your life, it doesn't just stop with the one person. And so part of me is like, man, this is how we don't have to know all of the second, third order effects of the good that we do in this world, but it's worth considering just for a second that it goes beyond just, well, I have this training session or this one event or whatever. It's the gift that keeps on giving. So it's a really fulfilling way to lead a life. And I very much commend you and I'm right there with you shoulder to shoulder in that mindset. right there with you shoulder to shoulder in that mindset. If you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my health and fitness books, including the number one bestselling weightlifting books for men and

women in the world, Bigger Leaner Stronger and Thinner Leaner Stronger, as well as the leading flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Let's go back now and talk about, let's go back to this point. You have come back and you're trying to figure out your marriage and you have this idea for a business. It sounds like you had commented earlier, which I totally agree is when you do have an idea for a business. If you have a job, keep that job for as long as you can let let that job pay your bills, and then put all of your extra time into trying to establish the other thing. Can you walk us through what happened next and how you got from there to where you're at now? And I'm also curious in your marriage as well, feel free to comment on

how you worked through that. Yeah, sure. So when I got back, I mean, realized the idea for GoRuck existed because we like the name and it was kind of like, oh, okay, well, a rucksack and put some stuff in it. And I'm like, oh, well, I'd rather just build our own rucksacks. How hard can that be? Because instead of just pre-populating stuff and kind of selling that as here's your home security backpack, whatever, however it would have been marketed. And so kind of famous last words, right? I mean, I didn't know anything about manufacturing, no idea, right?

Zero. And so I kept trying to find Googling backpack designer and pretending like watching YouTube videos was really helping. It wasn't. And so I ended up putting an ad in Craigslist, New York City for literally a backpack designer. And I heard back from some people. I mean, this was 2009, say, and realized the financial crisis is roaring. And it's a really tough time economically in the country, just uncertainty, right? It impacted different people differently, but there was a

lot of uncertainty. And I heard back from this great couple. This is like one of those lucks in the universe. The more you fish, the more fish you'll catch, right? You've got to get out there and put yourself out there in order to find anything. But this great couple design team that was operating out of Bozeman, Montana, they were a cut above just in the application. I mean, they had a real website and everything, and they had actually done this before. And they showed me that they could actually build something, right? As opposed to someone, there's lots of people who would just do sketches for you. And then that's the inspiration that you're supposed to then take to someone who can actually build it. I learned that one the hard way, right? So this team then signed on, I think I paid them four grand for three, no, it was three, it became three different

rocks that sort of became four because there was an in-between size. And I think there were something like six version one samples. And so it was just a series of testing and they would send one and like, oh, this sucks. But it was better than the other stuff. And so that took months and months for that to kind of work itself out. And there was back and forth and back and forth. And I was grateful because they really gave me an education in the R&D trade-offs and manufacturing stuff. Because I did know what I wanted in terms of what it should feel like, but I didn't know any of the problems associated with how to make something like that. I don't know how to sew or anything like that. So they were very gracious and taught me a lot in that process. And so in that time, I had started applying to business school because I still wanted

to go join the agency. And it's like, okay, well, I need a little bit of time. I don't know what's going to happen with this whole marriage thing. So Emily then eventually moved back to Washington, D.C. And I was up in New York and I applied to business school. I got into Georgetown and they gave me a scholarship. So I'm like, all right, well, that's going to be tough to turn down no matter what's going on. I was then 2009, I was matriculating as a first year MBA candidate at Georgetown. And that's right around the time when M and I were like the plane had

already hit the ground and was crashing and burning. So that's just where we were in that part of the story. But this idea of GoRUCK as a hobby kind of continued and it kept costing more money and more money because at that point, I had half the money that we'd earned and she had the other half. And it was like our deployment money. She had been posted overseas for three years. I'd been on a couple deployments or a few deployments, I should say. And so had saved up some, we were both, we were geographic bachelors or whatever, both of us, right? What does that term mean? Like-

It just means that you're technically married, but you're living apart. Oh, I got it. So it's like, you're living as if you're a bachelor, but you're married. Yeah, I got it. Yeah, it's a technical government term, right? You're living in different places, so you can't be together the way you'd normally be together, but you're also not out there screwing a bunch of people. Correct. Got it. Correct. So yeah, so that's what we were doing there. And so while I'm at

business school, I enjoyed having more to do than just business school. It was just, it was a hard time in my life. The transition was hard. I'd lost my job by choice, but I'd lost my job, my team, my mission, the sense of purpose. And now kind of against my will or, you know, however, the fate of the universe was dictating that I was losing this support structure from being married as well. And it was just a lot. Em and I were fighting over the dog. It was passive aggressive and it was really, really uncomfortable. And, you know, we both just wanted the damn

dog. And so these were big stressors in my life. And so the time that it took to start GoRock officially started in late 2007 in our brain and then came back and filed the paperwork and said, start being an entrepreneur by title. It was really easy. You can go to LegalZoom or whatever and just fill out the form and boom, you got it, right? You're a CEO now and a founder. Yeah, I can put that on all my cards and stuff. It'll be awesome, right? And so the thing is, I did not have the mental headspace to actually sit down and focus and concentrate on very much that time. It was just, like I said, a difficult time. So the time that it took, the years that it took to kind of get working prototypes of the gear and then to find a

domestic manufacturer who could scale the gear, because that was the next hurdle. I finally had some working prototypes, but I'd expended all the cash and all of their time on those prototypes. And so they're like, all right, well, this is how far we got. Now, you're gonna have to solve a couple things at the factory. And I'm like, man, that doesn't sound perfect to me. But all right, it is what it is. So then found a factory, just cold calling and stuff like that, and went through that whole process, and they have to learn it. And then there's it just look, if people are ever thinking that something's going to be easy, it's never going to be easy. Just when one thing gets

easier, something else emerges. That's just the nature of it. It's just, if it's passing through your desk, so to say, all you do is triage problems all day long, right? That's been my experience. I liken it to firefighting. Everything's on fire and you just have to choose which fires you're going to put out and which ones you're just going to let burn longer, maybe indefinitely. Exactly. And you're not sort of stationary. And that also is true in my experience, having interacted with a lot of successful business people over the years. I mean, I've yet to have one of them disagree with that analogy. And in some cases, these are people who, disagree with that analogy. And in some cases, these are people who, I mean, I think of one guy,

he recently took his business public and it's, I think, $2.4 billion market cap. Another guy cashed out for $30 to $50 million, like people who have made a lot of money. And that just seems to be an axiom of business. Maybe I would think the exception could be an obvious exception, could be a business that's not trying to grow anymore, really. I can think of a few people who have set up, maybe you would call them quote unquote lifestyle businesses and their annual growth is negligible, but they don't care. It just provides them income and they've- You still have to get to that point. For sure. For sure. What I'm saying though is to grow, to take more ground, you also have to metabolize chaos always. And I was just saying, I could think of people in business who did that. They kind of staked out their territory and they built their little systems that work and it provides them with this

amount of income. And then they just don't really care to go further than that. And that is less, you have fewer fires to fight. But if you are trying to grow something, and especially if you're trying to grow something fairly quickly, then that seems to just be the law, regardless of how big. Or if your goals are sort of what yours are, you want to impact societal change, change of consciousness. Sure. But I mean, you're going to have to do that through growing your, whatever you're doing, right? I mean, if it stays small, you're not going to impact many people.

It's hard. Yeah. You have to actually build a good business as well. And that's one of those things where it's somehow in some corners, it's cool to not make money. It's cool to sort of brag about how you don't make any money or I'm just in this for the cause. Really? I never understood that. I was never a money motivated person, but I also never really understood the appeal of not making money, especially with artists, but it never quite resonated with me. Yeah. I mean, you just see it's kind of corrupted by the Gordon Gekko types where greed is good and it's all about money and you'll do anything you want to for money. And I think the idea of nuance

is lost in our society. And so you need to build a great business. And if you don't, it's like if you owe the man a rent check and you don't pay your rent check, it's not the man's fault when he has to kick you out, right? I mean, that's just the laws that we're playing by. And when you're trying to build a movement, whatever your goals or your intentions are, if you can't pay your rent checks, then you've got problems. So those companies out there and those brands and those movements that you support, right? I mean, you need to support them, not just by liking or whatever, but you need to actually support them if you want them to continue to grow and to thrive. And that's an American concept as well. And people are smart, right? We are able to see

which places are gouging or don't represent our values or all of that. At the same time, or don't represent our values or all of that. At the same time, there's a little bit too much emphasis placed on like, well, I don't make any money, so I must be in this for the right reason. I think that's just a false narrative that needs a little bit of correction. I've never had anybody tell me that, but I'm sure that's out there. And a reframe of that is, okay, yes, you have a lot of greedy people, a lot of mercenaries out there who are willing to do anything for a dollar. And if you look at a marketplace and you're trying to participate in a marketplace, you have those people and you often have those people making a lot of money and being very successful. And then if you're trying to do things ethically by staying small, you're kind of doing the market a disservice because if you were doing a better job making money, that means you would be doing a better job acquiring customers, quote unquote, saving them.

You're kind of the deliverance from the fraudsters that are out there. This is the balance, right? This is the balance. It's like, look, I've got a lot of really good buddies that just hate social media, right? And they're literally just living their lives in happiness. They're kind of off the grid or they're, you know, they just don't do it at all. Yeah. Yeah. I'm on board. I do it begrudgingly for my work. And that's really the only reason that I do it. Otherwise I, I mean, I don't have, for example, quote unquote, personal accounts outside of my public accounts that I use to mostly just share, share my educational material.

My point is, is I can relate. My point is, is you've made a choice to say, I can impact more people positively. If I share my message through these delivery systems that the world is operating under, because if everybody that is living the good life, so to say, is just not doing or saying anything, the void will get filled. And so you do actually need people to step up and present viable alternatives. It's similar to the sense of if politics is such a terrible place, but nobody that's a good person is ever willing to enter that arena, we're in a really bad state. You still need people to enter these arenas that are not that great. And to me,

Facebook is not that great. I don't always enjoy it. We have a couple of good groups that I do enjoy almost all of the time. And I tolerate the fact that I know it's not going to be a perfect existence. So these are not real communities. Those are forums. And the second that you stop letting the machine kind of tell you that those are communities and that those people are, quote, friends, don't buy that. Friends and communities and stuff like that, they need real world interactions or else they're not communities and they're not friends. They're forums and they're online acquaintances, if you will. And so you have to kind of make your peace with certain things. And those are the choices that I'm willing to make. Ultimately, I feel like I was given and

afforded a lot, the opportunity to serve America and to serve with the people that I got to serve with and to experience that way of life. And I left my service a better person than when I joined. You know, I went to war. I'm a better person because I went to war. Not worse, better. And so to me, I owe the guys that aren't with us anymore. I owe the guys that got a little more or a lot more banged up than I did in a lot of different ways.

And so my goal is to kind of help spread that message of that way of life, because I think that America, the world, people cut through all the BS, people need more of that way of life. And I sort of choose to be the messenger of sorts, but there's a balance that I have to strike that I just can sense you strike as well. And there needs to be more of that. Have you read the book Starship Troopers, Heinlein? I have not read it. Oh, you may like it. I mean, I didn't particularly like his writing and the story is basically non-existent, but the message would probably resonate with you.

I'll check it out. I mean,'ve read several books i mean brave new world isn't the best written book i don't know i mean it's a terrible book if we're judging it on its merits as a story for example it's a joke i mean character is a joke dialogue a joke but it's more the it's a warning that's a cautionary tale and i would say it's probably more like a blueprint given who huxley was who his brother was and the circles they ran in. But I guess that's another discussion. But yeah, Starship Troopers, I think it remains popular because of the message. Again, don't expect the writing is very flowery and the story is more or less non-existent. You don't care about any of the characters. There's a term for it. It's a book that basically, again, I'm not going to remember the term. It's basically an essay. It's like a political, long political essay dressed up and made to appear like it's a novel, basically. Yeah. I mean, so was 1984. Yeah, completely. An Animal Farm, exactly. And Atlas Shrugged, another book that should have been like 300 pages, but I liked some of what she had to say. I don't agree with her philosophy on

the whole, but the- Yeah, I mean, John Galt's speech at the end was like 100 pages. 100 pages, literally. I mean, come on. I mean, Howard Rourke's before that was too short, I guess, in The Fountainhead. Yeah, I didn't read The Fountainhead. After Atlas Shrugged, I was like, okay, I think I've had enough Ayn Rand for a bit. Again, I do like some of her ideas, for sure. And like Danconia's, Danconia's, how are you supposed to pronounce it? The money talk was fantastic. And the long 100-page monologue, I did enjoy. And again, I agreed with some of the message, but the extreme individualism doesn't quite make sense to me. It actually relates to some of the stuff we're talking about. I do think that a high-functioning individual feels a sort of a sense of responsibility. And that's not a

repugnant thing, not that they feel forced into it, but they are drawn to maybe accepting the responsibility or some sector of responsibility for society, for example. And you don't know your country, nothing, right? Yeah. I mean, you could say your country or just even your, even start local for anybody who wants to get involved in something more than just their own existence. And for me, over the years, my time basically has exclusively gone into my work. And fortunately, my work is making a meaningful impact in many people's lives. So that is a source of satisfaction that would not be there if I were just like making trinkets, little, I don't know, goo guys and selling them on Amazon.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. I actually have more of an appreciation for the art and science of building a successful business now that I've done it to the degree that I've done it. But for me, it would have to have a bit more to it to really be fulfilling. But something that I have done is I've given a fair amount of money, probably on average, 10% of my income to charities and causes and even individual content creators whose work I want to support. And so that's another way to... That represents work. I mean, the money is... It helps, like you were saying, I mean, let's take a business, right? And it's one thing to like something on Instagram. It's another thing to buy something from the business as a sign of support.

And similarly, if there are groups or movements or individuals who could use financial support to do work that doesn't directly make that much money, but has an impact, then giving money to those groups counts, I think, a lot. And there are a lot of people who do that. And there are a lot of people who do that. And there are a lot of people who don't. And in some cases, I've had surprised to learn that this person had given zero dollars to anyone or anything related to the party. And I was like, what? So you don't care then? You can't. I mean, politics runs on money. I don't think that's a good thing, but it does.

Like if, for example, if you thought Bernie Sanders was great and you wanted him to become president, that requires a lot of money. That requires hundreds of millions of dollars, minimally. And where's that money going to come from? The party will give him some, but he has to raise it from people like you. So if you say that you care, but you're not even willing to give him $20, do you really care? Again, I would say that applies generally, I think, to if somebody says they care about helping make the world a little bit better and then it's like, okay, so what time and money are you giving toward that?

Show me your calendar and your bank account. I'll tell you what you really care about. Where do you put your time and your money? Because that's actually what you care about. And if you don't care about making the world a better place, if you're just in it for you, then I think that there's... I at least respect somebody who could tell me that without any qualifications. If that's really the reality, if they're like, look, I put none of my time or none of my money into anything that doesn't directly benefit me. I do not care about anybody else's circumstances or the world around me. I know I live in this world. I interact with this world. If the world gets worse, that's worse for me. But I have a plan. And my plan is to accumulate enough resources myself

so I can disappear to South America and live my own little existence. I would say, okay, I'm glad the world isn't full of people like you, but I still would respect that at least there's no self-delusion there. You know what I mean? Here's the thing though. I joined the army out of revenge. That's what I wanted. And what I did not foresee was that I would unlock this world of service and service takes on all different forms. I think that's kind of what we're getting at as well. And so I win as a human being, I win by serving more things that I choose to be a part of. And there is something out there for everyone to be a part of. It does exist. And so I think the first step is to find that thing that you're passionate about and then to be a part of it and not to be apologetically a part of it, but to

really be a part of it and to provide value to others who are also a part of it. That's a really rewarding life. That's like the secret of my universe kind of unlocked right there. And sometimes it's home life and sometimes it's various communities that go ruck. And sometimes it's other stuff that we're passionate, our neighborhood, stuff like that. And it's actually really rewarding. I totally agree. I have to hear the next phase of the story before we wrap this up. So things are not so hot and you've been working for a couple of years, if I remember correctly, to get Go Ruck started. And then how did you go from that situation to now your current situation where my understanding is, I mean, obviously you're still with your wife and you have a family, I'm sure you've sorted things out and everybody has no relationships. Perfect. And you always are working on it. I understand. Yeah. We got divorced. Oh, wow. We got divorced and then got remarried along years later. So it was legitimately messy. That's interesting. That's rare. I don't,

you might be the first person I've met who can say that actually. I've told that more than once. Yeah. You know, And it's just, it's like, look, people have these ideas about, oh, this is meant to be, or this is not meant to be. And in our case, it was, look, if you put enough strain on a person, a relationship, something, right, it will break. Nothing is unbreakable. There's a lot of humility that I learned in that process. There's a lot of grace that's easier to kind of pass on to others, compassion and all of those things just by virtue of thinking that I could solve everything, you know, this special forces guy, blah, blah, blah, right? But I can't solve my own happiness. And the most frustrating thing in life is to sort of have the front row seat of your life burning down and feel powerless to stop it.

And that's very much where I was. And so, yeah, we took a little permanent, semi-permanent break while I was at business school. And she moved to South America for a few years. And I kind of kept plugging along with Go Ruck a little bit. And once I figured out the manufacturing side of it, which was its own challenge, nobody really wanted to buy the gear. I drove to 48 states trying to talk to people, get into adventures and deal with retail shops or anything I could do to try to sell some rucks. And none of that worked at all. And so what did work was I came up with an event patterned after special forces training called the Go Ruck Challenge. And it was basically me at that point,

a green beret that would give people a day in the life. And the first class was, you know, September 26th, 2010 in San Francisco. And it was by just me following, you know, what I knew of course it was a rucking event because that's what all our training was in special forces. You always had a ruck on basically. And so, you know, it was a rucking event there and we did some team-based PT. And at the end, you know, we drank about a 30 rack or two of Budweiser, Bud Light, whatever it was, and ate some PB&Js and some peanut M&Ms and like sitting there in that parking lot. I was like,

I can get behind this, you know, because the idea of a backpack company, I mean, the world doesn't need another backpack company. And so there was this idea of, well, the choice between the agency and where I absolutely still get to serve America in a time of war versus a backpack company, it was a bridge too far, right? Like it felt too much to me, that mindset of, oh, I'm going to get out and make money selling backpacks now. Stupid. Don't want to do it. But it was a hobby for a while. So I kind of like, oh, it's just a hobby, whatever.

We'll see where it goes. But this idea of giving back to people and showing them how to over punch their own demons in the throat or overcome their obstacles, how to push themselves, how to be a part of a team and to see that. their obstacles, how to push themselves, how to be a part of a team and to see that. And then to watch the change that happens in their lives, that was now this new sense of kind of a reward for me to be able to serve in that capacity. So that first year we ran seven events and the next year it was probably a hundred. And then, you know, it got up to where we're running like a thousand events a year.

And that was just grassroots word of mouth because it was some fight club shit, man. And people that showed up for it and then still showed up for it. Like, that's what they want. They want something that will be, that it's worth showing up for dedicating their time and money to do. And so. And so what do you do in these events for people wondering? Well, they're rucking events.

So we have all different times and distances. Now, the Go Ruck Challenge has three basic distances. Like there's a five-hour version, a 12-hour version, and a 24-hour version. But you'll start out with a couple of workouts, right? And then you've got a rucksack on, you've got sandbags. And then there's some movements with mission-based scenarios. And there's a Green Beret or a SEAL or a Delta guy or an Air Force PJ or a recon Marine or someone that's been through this kind of training who's building the team, right?

And it's not like a boot camp so much. It's more kind of a more positive vibe than that because, you know, it's paying people. We're not degrading people or telling what they can't do. It's about pushing them to what they can do together. And so it's a lot of physical stress with some mental challenges thrown in as well. And by that, I just mean, okay, well, go get that log and we're going to carry that log through the middle of the city. And you have to figure out a way to work through that with rotations and all that stuff. Or you lost shoulder strap privileges, or you've taken

casualties, or there's more weight, more sandbags, more awkward stuff to carry. You've got to meet certain time hacks. So there's no published route. There's no quote, quote, obstacles that are built. It's the obstacles that are built in your mind are, oh, that's too hard. I can't do that and stuff like that. But you can if you just work together and you find out that the task will be accomplished. And that's rewarding. And then we have rucking only events. So 5Ks to 50 milers that have no pushups or anything. It's just sort of covering ground in a city and it's a neat way to see the city. But we've gotten up to the point where we run a thousand events a year. They're led by current former special operations guys. That's kind of built the brand of GoRuck is getting out there and doing stuff, go-ruck. And in that process, what's been really, I love this part of whatever you want to describe as our success. This is how I'll describe it is that we have over 500 community led go-ruck clubs in the world. And these are volunteers,

members of their community who lead fitness classes, right? They show up and they pick, right? So sometimes it's 30 minutes in a field. Sometimes it's a, you go for a couple of miles after work, they pick the date, time, place, location, whatever in their community. And they get their friends and their friends get their friends to show up and to work out with them in that kind of a setting. So turn the parks, turn the trails, do that outside. And, you know, that's really rewarding. That's kind of the force multiplier concept of these folks want to take an active leadership role in their communities.

And they do it by organizing people, which takes time and energy. And they show up and they kind of bring people together. And it's very much an alternative to living a life just online. You show up with other people. That's how you form strong relationships. That's how you get a stronger body, a more confident mind, and you feel like you're part of something bigger than yourself. And that's where people meet people. And then you say, okay, well, what else are we going to do? It doesn't always have to just be, hey, an hour in the park with rucks on our backs. What trip are we going to take this year? Where are you going to dinner on Friday night? What are we doing with the kids on Saturday? These kinds of things. I mean, this is how I think more of us need to spend our time. And so we're really happy to kind of be at the forefront of that.

Yeah, that's fantastic. It's a good business lesson too. That was a smart move. When you originally came up with that idea of holding events, did you see the potential? Obviously, I understand business. We have a lot of ideas and a lot of them, even the ones we think are good, often aren't as good as we hope. But sometimes, at least I can speak myself, sometimes over the years, I have happened onto things where I'm like, oh no, that's a good idea. I think nothing's guaranteed, that's life, but I'm willing to bet often real money on this and a fair amount of money and a fair amount of time. When you first came up with that idea and you started doing it, did it surprise you how it played out or did that make sense to you? Was it like an epiphany like, oh, this is so instead of just trying to sell backpacks, I'm going to sell community.

I'm going to sell basically self-transformation. And the backpack is simply a tool to make it more fun and make it more challenging and incorporate some fitness. It's both, right? So my original goal was to show, I'm like, man, I got to figure out how to play this Facebook game. So organize something cool, turn it into some special forces thrasher stuff and take pictures. I'm like, all right, I'll basically free it everything. I'll take pictures and put it on Facebook and see what happens. And I got to do something. There was certain depth of the business. If I didn't figure something out, that's just the laws of economics. There was no cash. I had all my cash in the, in the rucks that had already been built.

And I had to figure out a way to do something. And so that became the go ruck challenge. And I'm thinking, all right, I'll play the Facebook game with cool pictures. And where it changed was after the event in that parking lot along the, right next to the beach where we started right by Golden Gate Park out there. I'm like, all right, this is now about people. Like this is how we'll build Go Ruck. And at that point, it was really no looking back. I mean, it was just sort of all of a sudden I'm on a bullet train and trying to figure out how to run more events and more and more and then find friends to help run more and more.

And that was really fun and exciting. So I knew quickly that the idea had been a good one and it didn't require a lot of overhead or investment or any of that stuff. We could just sort of do it. And so there was not that much friction to it. And so some ideas are great, but they just, it's going to require enormous spend on PR or on anything. Take your pick and it's like, okay, well, how much do you believe in this, right? If it's a billion dollar idea, then go raise a billion dollars. Good luck, right? But this was

one of those things that I could just sort of walk forward. And I didn't really know that this would lead to so many events or the local communities, but some of that stuff just sort of happens. And when you have a good idea or something just kind of works, you can feel it in your bones. It's like a relationship. inside of a relationship and it doesn't feel that great, that's oftentimes abusive, right? I mean, on some level, or it's like not meant to be, or it's just, it doesn't have to be easy. Everyone's looking for a silver bullet. None of the best things in life are ever easy, right? But at the same time, this is one of those things where you can just feel the energy and it's positive and it's moving forward and it felt rewarding and it was still really hard, but I felt really good about following and riding that wave. And so that rewarding and it was still really hard, but I felt really good about following and riding that wave. And so that's what we kept doing. And we've had to build a business essentially around that, right? I mean, how to build rucking gear and how to stay relevant

as events have had to evolve and how to greater support the community leaders and stuff like that to where it's not just us. Because at some point, you start to believe all your own ideas are great and you're living in your castle and that's awesome. But the world votes every day with time and energy and money. And so it's conversation. And over time, that conversation evolves. So it's been incredible. And the community building side has been really, really just the most rewarding level of success. That's a green flag. Yeah, we're doing great. We're doing great. And I don't mean that to imply anything. I'm just being very objective in saying,

sure, there are plenty of people out there who have kids who don't have a good relationship, but given your story, it sounds like you were able to figure out what was not working previously and make it work a lot better. I mean, to back up a little bit, just so there's some context. I mean, we met before sophomore year in high school, right? I mean, she ended up, I would leave every summer because my dad lived in Ohio and we lived in Florida and she babysat my siblings who were younger, same mom, different dad. So they were nine and 12 years younger. She was always around. My mom loved her. Our families knew each other. We went to high school together. And we lost touch a little bit in college, but still saw each other when we were

back in Florida. Never dated at all in high school or anything. And then right before I left for basic training is when I'm like, I love you, this is what we're meant to be together, which is just, you know, it's one of those forcing functions in life. Like I didn't want to go off to war and die and not tell this girl that I'd loved forever that I loved her, you know? And so we were friends for a really long time first and we had that.

And that became kind of confusing for a little bit of time when life got harder between us. So, you know, because you start these questions of, should we just have stayed friends and all this stuff? And I think the lesson is, is kind of, look, the world put a lot of stress on us and, you know, life's not fair like that, man. Like sometimes girl gets away and sometimes things don't go. Sometimes your buddy dies. Sometimes there's just terrible things happen and it's really hard. And sometimes things don't go. Sometimes your buddy dies. Sometimes there's just terrible things happen and it's really hard. And you're kind of left with, how can I pick the pieces up? And in my case, it's one of those things where we weren't really in touch and then we kind of were

a little bit, she was moving back to Florida. Both of us had to kind of put whatever grievances and basically pride, right? I mean, do you feel fear of the world's judgment so much that if you're still meant to be together, are you going to say, oh, well, this isn't like we had our shot and we blew it and it's best to just try to start new? Well, guess what? I got news for you. You never get to start new ever. It will never happen.

You are the choice of everything that you've done and the things that you haven't done. And, you know, we have to just kind of make peace and show some compassion to ourselves and to others. And so, you know, it was not like, oh, day one, it was just perfect. But it's like, you know, a lot of times what will happen is people get divorced or they'll separate or they'll make some drastic change and they'll actually do the things that they should have done in their first part that would have prevented them from breaking up in the first case. Well, it's emotionally can be harder to do if you've got to go back and dig up the exact old wounds and solve them.

But, you know, both of us,, we just really loved each other. And so time played that out a little bit more. And I think we had done certain things in our lives that made it... We were just more compatible, not the least of which was we could live together. And so we had that opportunity to 2.0 of, okay, well, what's it like to actually live together? And we didn't get married right away or anything like that. And I learned like, look, if you love someone, you need to tell them, even though they know, you need to tell them. And it's no skin off your back. You probably actually feel great doing it. If you feel like you're a sap or whatever, guess what? All your successful buddies that are, by ones, I mean, that are successfully married,

guess what? They're also saps, right? The ones that aren't, that are like, they're right. They're running around doing whatever they're not. And yeah, you have to judge for yourself what you want in life. And I get that. Right. But there are certain things that you have to do. And Emily had to kind of better understand me a little bit, right? Like there's just, everyone's got their quirks and it doesn't mean that I don't feel this way or don't do that. It's just like, I don't care what we have for dinner tonight. I literally do not care. Like I have no interest in making that decision ever. I'm probably not even hungry. And like, how about you just take that one until the end of time? And that used to be a real thing, you know? And now it's sort of not. That's kind of our, she knows that. And even last night, she's like, well, what do you want for dinner? And I'm like, well, what do you want for dinner?

And like, we play that game a little bit, right? Something calories, some protein, you know? Yeah, whatever. But the other really big lesson learned was when I went to war, there was these first generation laptops that had cameras built in. And you had to get speakers along the sides. It was a total pain in the ass. Skype was kind of a thing back then. And I was like, screw this, man.

It's too much money. We don't need to buy those. And she was in Africa and I was in Iraq. And it's one of those things where it's not like that would have been the silver bullet that would have saved us. But a couple of guys had them that were on the team. And every once in a while, it wasn't like now where you can just, anytime you want, there's Wi-Fi and you can be FaceTiming someone. It just wasn't like that at all.

Our internet was terrible. But it's more of the mindset that I had that was the problem, right? Like you have to spend these things that we've talked a lot about time, energy, money. You have to spend those things on the things that matter to you and doing something as simple as buying the thousand dollar 50. I forget what it was. We had plenty of money back then. We didn't have enough bonding time for us, right? The best we could have done back then would have been to be able to look at each other every other week, every week, who knew, right? We'll never know. But the point is, is the mindset of,

hey, spend all, especially when you're first starting out with somebody, spend all the money that you have on really investing in that team, right? That relationship and really get to know the other person. Don't just sit around and wait to talk. Actually really listen to them and learn them just because being in love, it evolves over time and you really do get to learn each other, but you have to put yourself through the hard things together. You need to do that kind of stuff and

spend as much time as you possibly can. And then you figure out how to build a life on top of that. And then every once in a while, you still got to take some crazy trip or do something awesome and blow some stupid plane flight to wherever and go hike some awesome mountain together and kind of get off the grid a little bit and check back in. It's kind of like you're cloverleafing back in on your relationship that's just you. So kids introduce more stress onto whatever foundation you have. So you have to block off the time just for you. And those are the things that we learned the hard way. We suffered because of it. But I mean, I will say, I don't know that we would have survived without going through that suffering. We tried to ignore it for a while to

spare ourselves from it. And it came back to really bite us in the ass. And once we kind of put that hard work in on the second go round, we found out that, yeah, we are actually really compatible. Also, we're friends, you know, we love each other and we're really compatible. And that was a, that's a pretty good combination. So we're, it's not perfect. It's not easy. Nothing worth doing is, but it's really rewarding. That's a great story. I like it.

I'll add, and this is a, there's actually research on this. Not that you need science to tell you this, but I'll add that making time for sex helps too. There's actually the research specifically is that I believe it's a, it was looking at people who are divorced versus who stayed together over the long period. And one of the conclusions of the research was that if you can have sex regularly, it just helps a lot. That was the key takeaway, basically. And so science commands it. Does anybody actually think that that's not true, right? Well, I mean, I would say, I mean, we've all known people who, especially when kids get into the picture, who get very busy and very stressed.

And also then physically things are not quite what they were. And so. Make the time, man. Do whatever you got to do. And make it important. Shameless. Be shameless. I understand.

I've been there. I've been there myself where I'll just get into a work mode and that's all I want to do. And I'm working all the time and I'm not really around for anything else. And, you know, it might go for, I don't know, a couple of weeks, for example, and it'll occur to me. And I'm better with this now. This was, I would say something more in the past, but I've experienced that. I know. And I don't have any excuse. I don't have any physical excuse. My wife and I have a good relationship. Every relationship has its things that you just have to, I guess, or maybe compromises, like you had mentioned the dinner thing. There are things that my wife would prefer I just were different about, but I don't know. There are certain things that seem just to be baked into the cake. And so you have to learn to accept there are things that where compromises are appropriate. And then there are things where continually kind of needling the person is just not appropriate. It's just let it be and let them just kind of be who they are.

Stop trying to change who they are to fit your conception kind of thing. And so I can just say again, say I understand how that goes when you get very busy and you get your attention wrapped up in all the things that you have to do. You got to you got to prioritize it, man. I agree. Well, hey, man, this was a great talk. I had a lot of fun. And let's wrap up with where people can find you and find GoRuck. And if they want to attend an event, where can they check out the schedule and see if there's something in their area or nearby? Yeah. Thanks, man. We're at goruck.com and at goruck on basically all the platforms, you know, a lot of Instagram and basically Instagram. And then on our website, there's a bunch of stuff. Like if you Google what is rucking, goruck stuff will come up as well.

And goruck events are on a separate website. There's a lot of them on there. There's a map with all sorts of stuff and there's ruck clubs that are on there. So there's community-led groups that are close to almost everybody. And then my personal stuff, I'm on Instagram, some, is Jason J. McCarthy. So try to respond to DMs if they ever come through as well. And yeah, man, I've really appreciated the time and, you know, dug up some good memories. Yeah. Yeah. Again, thanks for taking the time. This was fun. Yeah, man. Really appreciate it. All right. Well, that's it for this episode. I hope you enjoyed it and found it interesting

and helpful. And if you did, and you don't mind doing me a favor, please do leave a quick review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to me from in whichever app you're listening to me in because that not only convinces people that they should check out the show, it also increases search visibility and thus it helps more people find their way to me and learn how to get fitter, leaner, stronger,

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And that's it. Thanks again for listening to this episode. And I hope to hear from you soon.