Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Kasey Orvidas on Optimizing Your Fitness Mindset

Episode Date: January 17, 2024

Hitting a fitness plateau can be frustrating, but often the battle is not just physical—it's mental.  In this episode, Kasey Orvidas joins us to unravel the psychological elements that contribute to fitness stagnation. Specifically, we delve into the importance of understanding your own behavioral patterns and thought processes, and discuss the importance of being a "researcher in your own life" to get to the root causes behind your fitness plateaus. In case you're not familiar with her, Kasey Orvidas holds a Ph.D. in Psychology and is a certified health and fitness coach, renowned for her expertise in mindset and health behavior change.  With numerous publications in peer-reviewed journals, Kasey combines academic rigor with practical coaching, making complex scientific concepts accessible to a wider audience. In this podcast, Kasey and I discuss . . . - Recognizing and addressing the psychological factors contributing to fitness plateaus - Practical strategies for developing a growth mindset and enhancing motivation, including effectively responding to feedback, setbacks, and others' success - Understanding the power of negative emotions and how to reframe challenges positively - The role of acceptance and commitment therapy in managing difficult thoughts and feelings -The influence of your social circle on motivation and ongoing success - Avoiding rash decisions during emotional turmoil by creating space for rational thinking - And much more . . . So, listen to this podcast to learn how to break through mental fitness barriers with a robust, growth-oriented mindset. Timestamps: (0:00) - Please leave a review of the show wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to subscribe! (13:12) - What signs indicate a lack of motivation in fitness? (21:33) - How can one improve at seeking and accepting feedback? (32:04) - Legion One-on-One Coaching: https://www.muscleforlife.show/vip (34:51) - What are effective ways to handle setbacks in fitness? (52:32) - How should we respond to the success of others? (01:03:28) - Why is it important to consider emotional states when making decisions? (01:09:14) - Where can people find more about Kasey Orvidas and her work? Mentioned on the Show: Legion One-on-One Coaching: https://www.muscleforlife.show/vip Kasey’s Website: https://www.kaseyorvidas.com/ Kasey’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coachkaseyjo/

Hey there, and welcome to Muscle for Life. I'm your host, Mike Matthews. Thank you for joining me today for a new episode on the inner game of fitness, how to win at the inner game rather than the outer game, which of course refers to your mindset, refers to the psychology of fitness rather than the physiology of fitness. And specifically, today's episode is going to deal with preventing and overcoming psychological plateaus, mental stagnation, motivational stagnation, I guess you could put it that way as well. And this is something that everyone has to deal with. You're not the only one. Every influencer you follow, every competitive athlete, every physique athlete, every strength athlete, every single person who works out regularly runs into periods of psychological plateau, mental stagnation, motivational stagnation. And often when people experience this,

they turn to the outer game to try to fix it. They figure maybe they just need a new diet, or they need a new training program, or they need a new supplement program or they need a new supplement or maybe a new drug. And sometimes those types of strategies can work to a degree. But if the problem is more related to inner game stuff, the outer game fixes, the outer game solutions might alleviate symptoms for a short period of time, but because they are not addressing the root cause, the plateau, the stagnation returns. And once somebody has run out of outer game strategies and they are still feeling stuck, psychologically, emotionally, motivationally stuck, then the problem gets even worse because despair sets in, hopelessness sets in.

Is this ever going to get better? Well, I don't want that to happen to you. And so in today's episode, you are going to learn about some of the psychological elements that contribute to fitness stagnation and what you can do to prevent that from happening. Or if you are in a rut right now, if you feel like you are in a psychological plateau, then maybe some of the information and some of these strategies shared in today's episode are going to help you get out of that. And in today's episode, you are going to be learning mostly from my guest, Casey Uravidez, who holds a PhD in psychology and is a certified health and fitness

coach who has built her brand specifically around her expertise in mindset and health behavior change. And as with many of my guests, Casey combines academic rigor with practical experience, practical coaching. She has numerous publications in peer reviewed journals, and she has worked with hundreds, if not thousands of people of all ages and all circumstances. And so she not only understands the theoretical concepts that she is talking about in today's episode, she also understands how to use them, how to make them work, how to get people to understand them and apply them and get results. Hello, Casey. Good afternoon. Thank you for taking the time to come and talk to me and my listeners.

Absolutely. I'm super excited to be here. Yeah. Yeah. As we were just talking about before we start to record, I thought this would be an interesting discussion because it's something that I've written and spoken about a little bit here and there, but I haven't had an in-depth discussion on it, especially with somebody who I would say probably has more good ideas to share than I do on the topic. And that is fitness plateaus, dealing with stagnation, but coming at it from the psychological angle rather than the physiological angle. So the first type of plateaus that people generally experience in their fitness journey is they are no longer losing fat as quickly as they once were, or as quickly as they want to, or maybe they're no longer gaining muscle and strength as

they were or want to. And there are simple, straightforward things that they can do, especially when you're new and maybe you're just making a couple common mistakes, and you address those mistakes. And like that, now you're losing fat again, or you're gaining muscle and strength. Yeah, and it's pretty easy, pretty straightforward. And that also renews your motivation, if that was sagging, because your results weren't there, and then you just fix that and everything is fine. But eventually, progress slows down, especially in terms of gaining muscle and strength, you can lose so much fat, and eventually you are done cutting and then maybe you want to focus on gaining muscle and strength and

eventually that slows down and then and then people, everyone inevitably experiences another type of stagnation. And it is more psychological. Even if you understand progress is progress and you are no longer going to, your newbie gains have been exhausted and you're not going to see the results that you were once seeing, you understand that. But nonetheless, motivation can wane and you can feel like you have hit a plateau and it's more maybe in your interest and in your motivation and you're no longer enjoying your fitness the way that you once did and so forth. And so that's what for everybody listening, that's what we're going to

be talking about. And I think it's going to be a great discussion because it happens to everyone and I don't think it's as often discussed as the other stuff, which is easier. If you're not losing fat as quickly as you'd like, or if your fat loss has stalled, you're not consistently in a calorie deficit, go figure it out. That's what it comes down to, right? Or if you're not gaining muscle and strength as quickly as maybe you could, then there probably are a couple simple things in your programming that you need to change and there you go, it's fixed.

But if it's more of a psychological plateau, it's not so simple. Yeah, for sure. And I do think to some degree, as you were explaining, maybe some more like nutrition and exercise focused variables, if those things are off and

you do figure those things out, you do get, as you said, a renewed sense of motivation. So these things are for sure intertwined, right? And I would definitely like implore you to consider all the different facets and all the different variables and don't automatically think like, oh, it's definitely something that I'm doing incorrectly from a psychological perspective, or it's definitely something that I'm doing incorrectly from an exercise perspective or nutrition perspective, but really like run the gamut and something that I think from a mindset perspective, and just in general, as you go into life, be it in your health and fitness journey or otherwise, is to be a researcher on your own life and get really clinical with this stuff, right? So we're going

to talk a lot about the psychological mechanisms of your motivation and or lack thereof, right? But it's important to really consider all of the variables at play and to instead of getting down on yourself or just assuming that you're not cut out for this kind of stuff, which is the direction that a lot of people go from like a fixed mindset perspective is to really start to think, okay, so why am I feeling this way? Why is that different than how I was feeling before? What has changed? You know, what have I introduced? Like, what's the difference here? And really just try to take a step back and zoom out and almost like remove yourself from that process. And the more that you can do that, the more clear everything's going to be.

And the easier you are going to be able to start to understand these things. And once you can better understand them, you can have a better grasp on them and actually continue to move forward and be successful despite of them, right? Yeah, that point of self-experimentation, I think, is a great mindset to have. And that also helps you reframe failure as something that you can learn from. And so if you're going into an experiment, you have some kind of hypothesis. And if you have that clearly worked out for yourself, like, okay, here's what I think is going on. Here's the cause and effect relationship that I think is in play. Here's what I should do cause create this effect. All right, let's go and try it. Oh, it didn't work out like that.

That is a failure. But it's also an opportunity to learn if it's if it's approached in that way. And if it's viewed in that way, and it's not viewed as a reflection on your identity, it's just a reflection on the hypothesis. Okay, there was something about this idea that was off. Let's go figure it out. What is that? Yeah, exactly. And like I said, the more that you can do that and just kind of like remove yourself from it. And we may get into this conversation a little bit more later, but a lot of it does just come down to your language that you're using and the labels that you're using to prescribe to yourself, right? So saying like, I'm not the type of person or this just isn't for me. I'm not an exerciser, whatever that may be like those things are going to make a big difference too. And so you paying attention not only to

the variables at play, but how you're actually a variable yourself, right? But the specific words that you're using, because it's very rarely just semantics in this case, right? Actually, not to like totally sidetrack us, but we were talking about New Year's resolutions with one of my coaching groups yesterday, and how there's a difference between the word resolution and goal, and how resolutions have kind of started to feel a little bit like icky, and people think that's not something you can ever stick to, or it feels so like such a hard and fast rule compared to something like a goal feels maybe a little bit softer and a little bit better in some capacities, which is so crazy, because really, really, we're talking about kind of the same thing here, right? I mean, they're synonyms, but yeah.

Exactly, exactly. But how it actually really does make a difference. But but I mean, there there are explicit meanings, but then there are implicit elements to to words. I mean, there are connotations and some people, in my experience, it seems are more and some people are less influenced by the connotive. Some people, they wouldn't care whether you call it a goal or a resolution, it doesn't mean anything to them. But then with other people, goals, like you said, might just make them feel better. Their emotional response to that is just better than resolution, which has some sort of negative reaction or produces a negative reaction, some sort of

baggage or whatever. And so you don't even have to necessarily know why. If that's the case, then fine, then call it a goal. Exactly. And I think that's not something that a lot of people spend time thinking about is like, how do these words and phrases and like what I am specifically going after? How does that affect me from a psychological perspective? Right? They may feel like, oh, I don't really want to do that, but everyone's setting resolutions. So I have to do it too. But in reality, you could just call it a goal. And maybe that leads to, it seems silly, right? Just like calling it something different, like whatever. But the truth is, if that word is making you feel a certain way, it's going to lead to certain behaviors and actions or lack of behaviors or actions to actually get to that thing. And it all really does boil down to mindset at that point. a goal that is expressed in a way that doesn't inspire any sort of, let's say, enthusiasm,

doesn't get you excited. It sounds good. It's objectively good. It's something that you do want to do technically, blah, blah, blah. But you phrase it in a way that maybe just evokes indifference. But you could take that same meaning of that goal and you could phrase it in a different way that for whatever reason, and this maybe plays into elements of our personality, you phrase it differently and it's inspiring and it excites you and it fills you with an urge to go do it. It's, I mean, I've experienced that myself. It's kind of, it's, it's odd. And I couldn't even explain why that is exactly. But I've just observed it again in myself and in others. And so it's something that I think about when I'm

articulating goals. If it's, if it is something that I really care about, I do try to get it worded correctly, worded in a way that is inspiring to me. And I think something that listeners should take away from this is that this is all really just opportunity, right? Like, I don't want anyone to get hung up and like, I'm using the wrong words. It's going to turn into me doing the wrong things and I'm never going to be successful in all these things. But actually, the flip side of this is like, wow, these tiny little tweaks that you would

think wouldn't actually make a difference probably can help you a lot, right? So rather than seeing this as something like, okay, well, I'm doomed because I use a lot of these words and we can talk about fixed mindset language and things like that, that's not the case. It's just like, we can now see where this is showing up for you very clearly because of these words.

And then it gives you an opportunity to actually rewire and really start to change that, which can make a true impact in your success, ultimately. So definitely want to make sure that everyone's like hearing that in the best way. Yeah, that's a good point. I would say that part of the 20% that gives you the 80% is having a goal, actually knowing what you're trying to do and being able to express it clearly. And then how you word it, I would say is part of the polishing. It's part of the optimization.

It's not nearly as important as understanding what you're trying to do and knowing why you care. Yeah, that makes sense. Let's quickly shift over to what I wanted to mostly talk about in this episode. And we've mentioned motivation a couple of times in the context of a plateau, a fitness plateau, a psychological plateau

or psychological stagnation. But what are some other signs and symptoms of this state? I'm sure there's more than just feeling not very motivated to train. Unless that is really the biggest one. train. Unless that is really the biggest one. I mean, I would say it's up there for sure. But I think for me, and this is me being very biased as a mindset researcher, I think it still very much so stems ultimately from your mindset and your belief system, right? And that actually is going to impact your motivation. So there is a little bit of like a chicken or the egg type situation going on here. But ultimately, if you do have a fixed mindset, which put plainly, like you don't actually believe that you can change and like do this specific thing, chances are your motivation is not going to be very high to do it, right? So that's kind of my perspective is that it all kind of boils

down to the beliefs that you currently hold and your mindset about the thing in yourself. So that's where I would start yourself. So that's where I would start first. And that's where kind of what I was talking about before is like just starting to pay attention to where some of that fixed mindset stuff does show up. And that could be very well just in the tiny little different words that you're using that other people maybe aren't who do have a more of a growth mindset about fitness or whatever goal it is that they're working towards, right? So some things that I like to mention for this too, to start to pinpoint where your fixed mindset might be showing up, which then is downstream effects affecting your motivation and therefore your fitness plateau, is to think about how you respond to feedback, setbacks,

and success. And when I say feedback, I mean feedback from other people in your life, whether it's friends, family members, your coach, co-workers, etc. How do you typically respond to feedback? So if we're talking from a fitness perspective specifically, maybe you are working with a coach or you have a personal trainer or you're just working out with a friend and they're giving you feedback on maybe how you should adjust things because you are complaining about your plateau or something else.

How do you respond to that? You know, a lot of people initially, maybe in the back of their mind are like, well, she doesn't really know what she's talking about because she's never like been successful either or something may come up like that. And to be honest, even just like those tiny little thoughts

in the back of your head, even if explicitly you're like, yeah, thank you for the feedback. Sounds great. If that's what's going on in the back of your head, you have more of a fixed mindset than you likely realize. So people with a growth mindset are going to take that feedback as an opportunity to learn, to develop, to get better and actually seek the feedback, right? Like someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong because that's how I know I'm going to get

better. So paying attention to how you respond to feedback is really important. The next one is setbacks. So how you respond to your own setbacks, because setbacks, my friends, are always going to be inevitable. It's truly, truly, truly part of the process. But it's also truly, truly, truly frustrating a lot of the time, right? So if you are experiencing a setback, what happens in that moment? And I'd love for you guys to just pause this and reflect for a second and think the last time you had some sort of setback, and this could be fitness related or otherwise, what was your initial response? If that was any sort of form of self-talk that was negative, like I'm just not cut out for this, I'm not the type of person to do this, I always do this. I can never do that. That type of language is very, very indicative of having a fixed mindset.

Someone with a growth mindset in their situations would say like, all right, well, that didn't work. So I guess we got to go back to the drawing board, see what else we can do. But you know what, this is great, because now we can cross this off is like not an option for me. Now we can go find some more, right? So you can really see how that difference in like energy and belief system can make a big difference in your motivation to continue forward. Person A with the fixed mindset is essentially about ready to throw in the towel and be done altogether. Person B with the growth mindset is thinking to themselves like, okay, this is good. Like, what else do we need in order to propel forward? And clearly, who's going to have more motivation in that situation, right?

And the last one is success. So how you respond to the success of other people is what we're talking about here. Not your own success, but when you see other people being successful, specifically in the realm of the thing that you are trying to progress in. So you're on social media and you're scrolling through, you see Susie from high school, she's lost 100 pounds, has this great big beautiful family, they have this house, there's massive land, everything's going well for Susie. What do you think to yourself in that regard? You're like, I'm really trying to lose weight like Susie and I would like to have a family and be successful in all these areas. What is your first thought? If your first thought is What do you think to yourself in that regard? You're like, I'm really trying to lose weight like Susie. And like, I would like to have a family

and like be successful in all of these areas. What is your first thought? If your first thought is not, oh my God, if Susie can do it, I can fricking do it. And I should perhaps reach out to Susie and see if she has any like tips or can support me. Maybe we can reconnect. Like she might be a really good resource for me.

Wow, I have like, I have this renewed sense of motivation, right? If you're not thinking that way, then you likely have more of a fixed mindset than you realize. And it could be, you know, oh, she's just lucky. She always did have pretty good genetics or man, she has so much money. She must be able to pay for like a personal chef. You know, you're essentially justifying why that person was successful and why you cannot be successful. And that is very indicative of the fixed mindset. And again, you can see where if

you're kind of sitting in, I guess what some people would call like victim mode, and I'm just like, it's just fixed mindset rebranded. If you're sitting in victim mode of like, all of these things are not possible for me, And they are possible for Susie because of XYZ reason that I do not have access to. You're not going to be motivated to do the thing because it seems like it's a thing that Susie gets and not a thing that you get, right? So again, coming back to this idea of motivation and working through plateaus, I really, really, truly believe for all of these reasons and so many more that your mindset plays the biggest role here because you're not going to stay motivated all the time, no matter what. But you're most definitely not going to stay motivated if your fixed mindset is kind of on loudspeaker.

All very good points that you bring up. And I want to go back to the first one, which is something that we all struggle with as humans. It's very much just a, it seems like a fault or a weakness that is just kind of baked into the cake. And that is, you were talking about feedback and being open to feedback. And really, we should be seeking out feedback on how we can do things better. But I have to say that it's very rare for anyone to actually live like that, just generally speaking, so much so that as I've gotten older, I've learned to stop giving people advice because I've realized that people generally don't want advice. Even if I have great advice to give, objectively great advice, like here's a person, they're trying to accomplish something that I've already accomplished. And I've read a ton of books about this.

I've tried a bunch of things. I could be helpful. Generally speaking, they don't want to hear it. They have made up their mind. They've worked out what they believe. And they've worked out what they're going to do or not do or what they're doing or not doing. And they really just don't care what I have to say. And so as a rule, I've actually stopped offering advice, even when people unless they explicitly ask me for advice, I don't give advice. And I'm the kind of person who likes to give advice. I'm, I would like to think that I'm not too prying or meddling, but I like to solve problems. And so when other people talk to me about their problems,

instinctively, I just kind of try to go into problem solving mode. Again, I've just learned that that seems to be mostly a waste of time. And so with these, well, again, starting with this first point of accepting feedback, being open to feedback, seeking out feedback and accepting feedback, especially when that feedback means that they have to accept that they were wrong? fundamental psychological obstacles in play here is the insistence of being right. And that means believing that you are right in whatever you are thinking and whatever you are doing. And if you take somebody's feedback and you accept their idea, and it might be completely contrary to your idea, then you're wrong. And being wrong is bad. Don't ever be wrong. And therefore, don't seek out feedback, or don't accept feedback. What are your thoughts on on all that? Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts, and a lot of different directions. I think some of it too, is not just working on yourself to be better, be more receptive when it comes to feedback,

but to also think about when you are offering feedback to other people, kind of like you were saying how you're, you've gotten to the point where like, I'm just going to sit on my hands because what's the point, right? And that's really unfortunate because when we're sitting here realizing, and I think everybody understands, getting feedback from other people is how we do grow and develop and get better at what we're doing. And so if it is this like crucial piece of the puzzle, and yet everyone's afraid to give it, and then people are pushing it away when it's given to them, like, what are we doing here? Right. So I do think that there are, there's two sides to this, right? Being right. I think that's, that's first and foremost, insisting, insisting that we were not wrong. We completely lost and our life is in tatters, but, but we were not wrong. Right. But it's also like, okay, so to what degree are you willing to be right if it means you're never going to like excel in all of these different areas of your life that you're looking to? And I don't think enough people see it that way. You know, how worth it is it to

you to be right? And I think spending some time thinking more about that in that situation, and this goes in a lot of different capacities. Really, we're just talking about like feeling uncomfortable, right? So to what degree are you willing to feel uncomfortable if it means you actually get to achieve the goals that you say you want to achieve and you could actually see success in all these different areas of your life? Chances are you're probably willing to be a little bit uncomfortable. And this is a situation where you have to be uncomfortable and face the fact that you very well may be wrong.

But being wrong is great because now it means there's other opportunities and other things where you can actually be correct and do things the right way, right? I'd rather be proved wrong if it means it's going to shed light on the things that's actually going to help me. And so I think like seeing it from that perspective, obviously really important, easier said than done. But the more you can just catch yourself in those instances, and just try to reframe and try to rewire the direction that your brain is going with these things, the easier it's going to get over time. And it will start to become more of a habitual

response, the more you put the reps in to do it, right. But I will start to become more of a habitual response the more you put the reps in to do it, right? But I do think the other side of this too is that you need to also embody the type of person who is willing to give feedback in the best way possible. Because if we're sitting here like, yeah, I'm just going to keep taking feedback, but you don't really know how to be the person to give, like dole out the feedback in the best way either, then that's a problem. Like it really is like energy exchange here. Like we need to be the people

who are willing to give feedback and do so in a progressive manner. And we also need to be the people who are willing to receive it as well. And so this is something I talk a lot about with the coaches that go through my certification when it comes to communicating with our clients. Because just like you were saying, Mike, you want to help people, right? You want to be the problem solver. So if someone comes to you

and says, I'm struggling with this thing, you want to be like, okay, let me in there. I'm going to tell you all the things that I know how I can help you because it's going to be really great. And we're going to find the solution and it's awesome. And then they're just like, they shut down or they push it away or they feel like you're being condescending in some regard. You're like, okay, I'm just not going to do this anymore. Right. But regardless, like it is really good stuff. And that's kind of what we're getting at here.

So there's different ways also to deliver feedback. Right. And again, this is what I'm talking to coaches who are coaching other clients. When it comes to giving feedback, we don't want to just immediately jump on trying to correct them and tell them this is the solution or this is how you're feeling and this is what you're doing and here's how we should do it differently. Because that really takes away autonomy from the client. And this can be the same thing with like your friends and family if you're giving fitness

advice or whatever. It takes away autonomy from them and makes it seem like you are the expert on their lives, which you are definitely not. And that's the feeling that they often feel. And that's the feeling we often feel when someone does give us just like random unsolicited feedback or advice. We're kind of like, you don't know me. What are you doing? And it doesn't feel good. And so we're much, much less receptive because of it. So I do think as much as, yes, we should all try to be more receptive to feedback in general. There's also a big part here that comes from the person who's actually delivering the feedback. So asking permission is really, really important in these situations. Like, hey, like I hear that you're struggling with these

things. I have, you know, a decade worth of experience in the health and fitness space. I've seen this happen a handful of times with different clients over the years. I can give you some ideas if you're up for it. It may not work for you. It may not fit. It may be something you've already tried. But if you're here for it, I would love to share it with you because I do think it could help. That is so much more likely to be received than saying like, oh, I know what you need to do. It's this, right? So I do think that there's a little bit of both sides here. And ultimately kind of coming back to like plateaus and motivation, people that are in these circumstances and are receiving feedback that way or are receptive to feedback are obviously going to be more motivated to do it because they see these things as opportunities and they are more receptive to them.

I hear what you're saying. I mean, I'm going to say that I'm right and you're wrong. No, I'm kidding. It's actually a very good point. I think about that is certainly on me and that's a mistake that I've absolutely and not intentionally, if I think back to some of the experiences I've had, it's actually just because I guess I was going about it in a way that I want people to go about it with me. I don't care for the preamble. I don't care if somebody needs, they don't need to check with me. If they have good ideas, I just want to hear them. And a lot of my interactions of these type have been in the realm of business. And there are several people over the years who have been great resources for me, very successful business people who've done a lot more than I've done and seen a lot more than I've seen. And very nice people,

but very to the point, very straightforward. And I appreciate that. So, you know, if I, if I go to them, Hey, here's what I'm thinking about. Let me explain this to you. Here are the circumstances here. Here's how I'm thinking about it. I mean, that discussion might start with, I don't agree with that at all. I would think about it totally differently. And let me explain why. And that to me is interesting. I don't shut down. I mean, that draws me in where I'm like, really, I got to hear this because I really thought I figured this out, but maybe not. And so I'm not saying that to say that I'm special in any way. It's just maybe a quirk of my personality. That's just inherently how I've

gone about giving advice is just hear it, think about it, and say what I think. Whereas I actually totally agree with you that if I were trying to deliver advice in a way that is most likely to be helpful and succeed, then I would go about it differently. And I would say maybe I've been better in that regard in my more public facing advice in my health and fitness advice and all the stuff I've written and said over the years.

I don't think it comes across as condescending or like I'm an expert on people's individual circumstances. And people generally have been very receptive to my advice in that realm. But when it comes to personal relationships, again, I wouldn't say I've been rude, but just reflecting on what you were saying, I very much have been that person where I'll hear the statement of the problem and I'll just get right to the point. Like, well, I think you should just do this. This is the simplest way to solve it and here's why. And then be a little bit confused when they don't want to hear it or don't do anything with it or whatever. So it's a good point. I do think that's like a really strong testament to where your mindset is at, right? Because you're at the point where you don't need don't sugarcoat anything. Just tell it to me

straight. Yeah, I mean, I actually have to say that sometimes, like, I'm going to tell you something. And if it's stupid, I want you to tell me it's stupid. You're not going to hurt my feelings. I really need to know your honest opinion. So let's just get right to it. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's a beautiful place to be in where you can be like, you don't need all of the fluff beforehand. Give it to me straight. I'm not going to take any offense to it. And actually, it's going to help me get I'm not going to take any offense to it. And actually, it's going to help me like get through this quicker so I can go and implement whatever it is you have to say. And I think that I mean, that would be the goals for all of us to get to

this place where we can just like shell out the feedback and receive the feedback in that manner saves a lot of time, gets to the point quicker. But the issue at hand is that most people aren't in that spot yet, right? They have some work to do likely on their mindset before they can get to a place where they can receive raw feedback like that and take it really positively. And that's not where the majority of people are, unfortunately. I've worked with tens of thousands of people over the years, and the biggest thing I see with the people I have helped the most is they're often missing just one crucial piece of the puzzle. And if you are having trouble reaching your fitness goals as quickly as you'd like, I'm going to guess it is the same thing

with you. You are probably doing a lot of things right, but dollars to donuts, there's something you're not doing right. And that is what is giving you most of the grief. Maybe it's your calories. Maybe it's your macros. Maybe it's your exercise selection. Maybe it's food choices. Maybe you are not progressively overloading your muscles and whatever it is. Here's what's important. Maybe you are not progressively overloading your muscles. And whatever it is, here's what's important. Once you identify that one thing, once you figure it out, that's when everything finally clicks. That's when you start making serious progress. It's kind of like typing in your password to log into your computer. You can have all the letters, numbers, and symbols right, except just one. And what happens? You can't log in, right? But as soon as you get that

last remaining character right, voila, you're in business. And I bet the same can be said about the body you really want. You are probably just one major shift, one important insight, one powerful new behavior away from easy street. And that's why I offer VIP one-on-one coaching where my team and I can help you do exactly that. This is high level coaching where we look at everything you're doing and we help you figure out that one thing that is missing for you. And it can be a couple of things too. That's fine. There's no extra charge for that. But once we figure it out, that's when you start making real progress. That's when you start looking better and feeling better. the next three months than maybe you did in the last three years. And yes, that has happened for many of our clients. Head on over to muscleforlife.show slash VIP. That's muscleforlife.show slash VIP and schedule your free consultation call, which by the way, is not a high pressure sales call. It's just a friendly chat where we get to learn about you and your goals and your

lifestyle, and then determine whether our program is right for you. Because sometimes we do speak with people who just aren't a good fit for our service, but we almost always have other experts and other resources to refer those people to. So if you are still listening to me and you are even slightly interested, go schedule your free consultation call now at muscleforlife.show slash VIP. Let's talk about setbacks. That was the second point you mentioned and dealing with setbacks better. That's a major part of, if we're just kind of sticking to the context of fitness, uh, sticking with it and

being consistent over the longterm. But of course, everything we're talking about in this episode, really, it applies at least so far to really any, any endeavor that we set out on. Um, we can, we can stick to fitness for the, for the purpose of examples and so forth, but the discussion is more universal than that. Yeah, for sure. Obviously, yeah, setbacks are a universal thing beyond health and fitness. And what's really interesting about, like you said, everything that we're talking about here, I'm sure everybody who's listening, you can see how this does apply to relationships, to your job, to friendships, you know, other aspects of your life too. So I really encourage you to continue to do that. But also, of course,

yeah, from the context of fitness and fitness plateaus, if we're talking about a setback, right? And you are going through a diet phase, you're really like focusing on fat loss, you're wanting to retain muscle retention during that time as you should. And you're working through this process and seeing consistent results. And then you start to notice, oh, you know, the scale hasn't moved in two weeks, three weeks, four weeks situation. So where your mindset is at when you're starting to notice this plateau and what could be maybe considered a setback, although we know plateaus are somewhat part of the process, right? But it can feel like a setback when you're noticing the weight loss slowdown and your progress kind of maybe start to feel like it's coming to a halt after so many weeks of seeing something totally different. So in that moment, someone with a fixed

mindset is going to probably start to spiral at least a little bit and start to think like, okay, here it goes again. I've tried XYZ diet. I've done this so many times. It never works for me. I always hit a wall. I always slow down. I can never get past, you know, these last 15 pounds that I need to lose. That is someone with a fixed mindset. And once you start to sit in that space, the actions that you take after that are not going to help you continue to be successful, right? It starts to become like, oh, well, then I just like probably don't need to make it to the gym five times a week because nothing's working anyway. Or, oh, what the hell? What's another few drinks? Because, you know, what I'm doing right now doesn't really seem to be working regardless.

You know, that's where it starts to go and how we can really see your thoughts turning into certain actions and behaviors. And someone with a growth mindset on the flip side would see this as, okay, progress is slowing down. Things aren't working the way that they were before. So what gives? What's different? What did I do differently? What do I maybe need to start doing differently? What's going on here? And again, kind of like run the gamut of the different variables that could be at play. And instead of getting discouraged, like actually leaning in and seeing this as a welcomed challenge, something like, oh, okay, it's getting juicy now. Like it's going to get a little bit more difficult. I may have to like

throw out some different strategies and try to do things differently. And I can't just rely on like the status quo that was working well for the past few months and like almost getting excited that it's going to get more difficult. That type of growth mindset will take you so far and just think that like, okay, so instead of a setback leaving you less motivated, like now I'm no longer motivated to do this because I'm not seeing the progress that I was seeing before. Instead, this setback is actually making me more motivated because I'm like, ooh, okay, let's something to figure out. This is exciting, right? And that can actually propel you forward versus like, actually like taking you multiple steps back. So yeah, how you respond to setbacks can make a very large difference in your motivation and your ability to get through fitness plateaus or

anything. Two thoughts I'm curious to hear your take on. So one, something that I may have picked this up from a book or somewhere, but it's just something kind of stuck with me that there are times when the setbacks are of a large enough magnitude, or maybe they're less severe, but you feel like you just can't get a break. It's just one thing after another. And inevitably, you get a bit down. And so when that has happened to me, I've thought, okay, I'll give myself a short period to maybe wallow in it a little bit. I give myself a day or something to just feel the way that I feel about it. But then after that, I'm going to do exactly what you just said.

I'm going to change my mindset about it. And I guess if I think about this over time, maybe that wallow period has, I guess, gotten shorter rather than longer. And it's not something that happens that often, but it has happened over the years. Again, big enough setbacks or enough cumulative setbackery from a number of setbacks can just trigger a certain type of emotional response. Does that approach make any sense to you? Or is that just something weird that I do? No, I think that makes a ton of sense. You might be a little weird, but I'm just kidding. I'm definitely a little weird. I'm okay with that. I'm like that we

already know. No, I, I do think that there's a lot of merit to that. Because what I love is that you're not just like pushing away negative emotions. And this is something that I see a lot. In fact, I just, I just made a reel on Instagram featuring David Goggins and some stuff that he said. And essentially the idea was that, oh, if you have these like negative thoughts that come up that tell you, you can't do it, just ignore them, just ignore them, just push it away type of situation. And like, while that seems to work fine for him in a lot of cases, that's not really the best way to go about it, especially from like an evidence-based psychological perspective. If you are just having these hard times, these setbacks and the negative thoughts that then come with them, which inevitably is things like, oh, well, you're just not cut out for this. Oh, well, you just obviously can't do this because you've seen the setback now. We have evidence to show that you're not capable of doing this. Like those are kind of the thoughts that could be going on in your head during that time. And that's probably what you're saying. Like I allow those thoughts to happen to me. I sit with them for a little bit and then I say, all right, enough of that. I felt that. Let's see what we can do going forward because I'm not going to

stay here, right? And I think it's really important to actually have that process at the beginning because if you're just shoving away those negative thoughts, you're never learning anything and they're most likely just going to continue to boil back up again and larger and larger every single time you have a setback, right? So instead of maybe taking some time, and I don't know, Mike, if this is something that you do during that kind of like period before you go back into like growth mindset attack mode. During that time, if you really start to think to yourself, where is this negative thought coming from? And obviously, this is a setback, right? So I'm going to feel like not so great about it, because I'm not

making progress in the way that I want to. But why am I feeling like whatever, like thinking about the particular emotion and like actually labeling what that emotion is and where is that coming from? Because you could be feeling very differently about that sepak than someone else might be. So you might be feeling like some form of shame and sadness. Someone else might be feeling like frustration and anger. So you both had different life experiences in past situations that led you to respond in that certain way. And the more you can get clear on where that's actually coming from, the more likely you're going to be able to keep it from boiling up so much next time. Likely never going to make it go away, right? And that's the issue that I had with like the David Goggin situation is that we can't just get rid of these negative emotions. We're human. It's part of the

human experience. Let's, you know, just the way it is in some regard, but we can learn to manage those negative emotions better. And so taking some time to like unpack, okay, why am I feeling so worked up about this? Like, where is this really, really actually coming from? And also making sure and this kind of comes from cognitive behavioral therapy, making sure you're spending some time thinking like, okay, what evidence do I have for the negative thoughts that are creeping up with this situation? And what evidence do I have against those thoughts? So really like weighing the evidence for and evidence against those negative thoughts that are coming along with this setback. And when you do so, you should be able to sit down and go,

okay, so what's the most accurate depiction of what's going on here? Chances are, you can think to yourself, I'm not actually like worthless or I'm not actually totally incapable of making this happen. I've just had some experiences in the past that look very similar to this.

And so I'm using that to compare when the reality is like, I really probably can't. And so I'm using that to compare when the reality is like, I really probably can't. And so the more you can sit down there and have that conversation sort of with yourself and be the researcher on your thoughts, again, the more clear that becomes, and then it becomes less just all of this stuff in your head that's making you feel like junky, and now you're just going to push it away and move on to the next thing. You can actually feel more in control and empowered based on what you just learned about yourself and the thoughts that you're having so long story short i actually really like that lull period before you go into

attack mode and i think that there can be a lot learned and also a lot lost if you're not doing that and just to speak to to that and how i have gone about it is, so for me, in many cases, if I think back to different experiences I've had, I would say that a negative emotional response was appropriate. It would have been irrational to respond to certain things in an enthusiastic way. These are not things you get enthusiastic about. Again, let's say major setbacks. I think of some major setbacks in business or personal life or relationship with my wife or friends that I've experienced that the appropriate emotional response is something negative. If you were feeling good, that actually would be more of a cause for concern.

That's how I think about it because Because, well, for obvious reasons. And so if that's the case, then that already, I guess, just gives me a framework in which I can accept that, yeah, this doesn't feel good. But this is probably how I should be feeling, considering what has happened. And if I want to feel good, then I probably should figure out how to correct this or improve the situation or whatever's going on. And then in cases where I respond negatively to something that I really shouldn't be responding negatively to, or just kind of feeling some sort of negative emotional response to nothing in

particular, uh, where, where I can't point to something and say, this is, yes, this is why I'm feeling this way. And this makes sense. Then I accept that as well. And it doesn't, it hasn't happened to me. It's just not something that happens often, but every so often, um, yeah, just feel less motivated, feel a little bit, uh, I mean, anywhere from maybe like a little bit sad or a little bit angry or irritated for no good reason in particular, ultimately why I can't say, but acknowledging that I am feeling this way and I don't know why, and I'm just going to keep going anyway, has seemed to work for me. And so that's one thing. And then just to this other point of

looking at evidence for and against conclusions and ideas that we might come to about ourselves, that's also something that I've done maybe just kind of instinctively for, I guess, for a long time is like take a situation where I'm trying to do something, and it's not going well. Yes, that I accept that that's evidence that I may not be able to do this well. That is possible. I'm not going to run away from that because I think that in general, I think we do better in life when we are willing to face things that maybe are uncomfortable, whether it's about ourselves or about others or about really any aspect of our life. I think I would be hard pressed to think of a situation where I would say,

yes, I think we're going to get a better outcome if we are unwilling to confront or face something that is uncomfortable. If we're be able to get good at this thing. That's true. But that doesn't mean that I can't get good at this thing. It just means that so far, I have not gotten good at this thing. And then I can look at evidence that would suggest that I can get good at this thing. So, well, have I succeeded at something like this in the past? Have I succeeded at things generally? Nobody succeeds at everything, but generally, have I succeeded at things that I've really

wanted to achieve, maybe as much as this thing that I want to achieve? So I just weigh those things. It's almost like a little, I don't know, Socratic dialogue with myself, I guess. But I've always found that helpful. little, I don't know, Socratic dialogue with myself, I guess. But I've always found that helpful. And I've found that motivating because inevitably, it just leads me in a productive direction where either I'm looking at, all right, what do I need to change? This is how I've been going about this thing. It doesn't seem to be working very well. What do I need to change? And I don't know what to change. Okay. Well then I need to go find out.

Maybe it's, I don't know enough. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe I actually need to go get feedback or I need to go read books or speak with people who have done this and look at how my approach compares to best practices or compares to the winning formulas that other people have used. Or maybe it's in the direction of assessing how much this thing really matters to me. I mean, I can think of examples of that where things that I've, directions I've gone in with kind of an asterisk of, I'm only willing to work this hard at this, whatever that level is, this only means so much to me. And if I can't get to a certain level of outcome, the constraints of what I'm willing to put into it, then I'm moving on. And that's okay with me. I'm okay. I'm going to fail at that because I may be able to succeed at it, but it's going to take a lot more than I'm willing to put into it. So I'm kind of just rambling. But if any of that is of any interest or use, it is now in the podcast. No, I think that there's definitely, I love conversations like this because I hear you

speaking and I'm like, oh, well, that's an evidence-based practice. So I know a lot of people are already doing things that are working for them and cultivating more motivation and cultivating a growth mindset. They may not even realize that it's actually backed by science. So some of the stuff that you were saying here really brings me back to acceptance commitment therapy. So there's a piece in there, it's three N's. I think it's notice, name, and normalize. So essentially what you're doing is noticing like, oh, yeah, that doesn't feel very good.

I'm feeling X, Y, Z specific way, give it the name. I'm feeling guilty or I'm feeling upset or whatever. Use your feelings wheel, figure it out. And then you normalize after that. This is actually a very appropriate response given what's happening to me. And the more you can just handle your difficult interstates that way, the better able you are to move on and move forward and actually continue to see success in whatever it is that you're doing. So I picked up on that a lot. And just generally as an overall overarching view of acceptance, right? Understanding that this stuff

is part of being human and it's most likely going to come up in any time you try to pursue anything in your life ever. So to normalize that and validate that that is a normal experience, but it also doesn't have to mean that you're stuck in that spot. And I think that's a really important point. And I share this with my students a lot too when we are helping our clients get to this place of normalizing any negative feelings that they have or if they're upset about the scale not going down, they're hitting fitness plateaus to say,

oh, this is a normal part of the process. It happens to most of my clients. It happens all the time, like no big deal. But when we do that, we have to be really careful and cautious because we don't want to normalize them into a fixed mindset. Or a fixed behavior pattern either. Yes. And just keep doing the same thing, right? Like, okay, well, if this is normal, then I guess I'll just continue on as I was. When the reality is, we should normalize to the point that someone feels

like they belong, which is a basic psychological need from a motivation perspective, belongingness, make them feel like they're a part of whatever everyone else is experiencing. But make sure that caveat is there, that just because this is a normal experience, and you're going to see a plateau, and you're going to see setbacks, and it's going to see a plateau and you're going to see setbacks and it's going to suck and you're not going to feel good about it, that doesn't mean that we're going to stay there. There's actually just as many people

who have experienced those things have also seen success after those things and have continued to grow and see progress. So now it's just a matter of like, hey, it's okay where you're at. This is kind of to be expected. Let's accept that and carry on, right? And so that's kind of like the message

that we want to share with our clients, share with ourselves in order to be successful and stay motivated long-term. Let's now shift to the final point that you mentioned previously. And that was a response to other people's success, particularly in the area that you are most interested in. And again, we can, we can stick to fitness as the general context, but of course it applies to anything.

And for most people, I mean, the most common areas probably are health, fitness, family, finances. Those are probably the big ones. And particularly, I actually don't know. I mean, this is a question I'd ask you, is it common for, for people who are struggling to do something to feel envy or feel jealousy when they see other people who have already done the thing? I guess that's the first question. And I might sound like a stupid question. It's just not, I haven't, I feel like I haven't experienced enough of these types of interactions to have an opinion one way or another of what is, of course, I've known many people who felt that way, but I don't know how common that really is. Yeah. And like, obviously I don't have a pulse on like general society when it comes to

these things either, but we have my coaching team. We have clients who hundreds of clients who come through that every single year, coaches who work with hundreds and hundreds of clients. So I do hear a lot of things. I think again, Mike, just a testament to your mindset and probably the people that you are putting yourself around that this isn't something that normally comes up, you are putting yourself around, that this isn't something that normally comes up, right? Because same for me, I have a great group of close friends that if at any time one of us were, multiple of us were working towards the same goal, and one person just like super, got super ahead and was very successful before the others, it would be like, oh my god,

you're so amazing. This is so great. Like, what can you share with us? This is, it would just be like, you're so amazing. This is so great. Like, what can you share with us? This is, it would just be like bowed down basically. Like that, I mean, that's a non-negotiable for me in terms of people I have in my inner circle for obvious reasons. And I also strive to be that way and probably naturally inclined to be that way. And that's not to say, and I'm sure you've experienced envy or jealousy before,

and I have as well, but it's just not my inclination. I am more inclined, as you said, to want to know if somebody has done something that I really want to do, I would love to know how. How do they go about it? Everything I can learn from that person. And often that means that I'm trying to find interviews or read articles from them or listen to podcasts or read books because most people who have done really cool things, you can't just record a podcast with them or you can't just call them up and ask for their unfiltered blunt advice. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, again, like you've clearly, carefully curated the group of people that is around you and who you are interacting with the most, right? Like you're at this point, your life is by design, right? And I say the same for myself. And a lot of that is because of all

this mindset, motivation stuff that we're talking about, because like your social circle is obviously such a big part of that. And as much as you want to like be your own person, the people that you are constantly surrounded by are still going to find their way to like, eat and like seek into your into your pores and find their way to burrow in there, whether you want them to or not. So with that said, seeing the success of other people, I would agree, or I guess disagree with you, that I do see it frequently, especially in the health and fitness space, especially when it comes to weight loss specifically. So we have clients often who are upset because they're seeing the transformation photos that we share on our Instagram account for my company. And they're upset because they're not the transformation photos that we share like on our Instagram account for my company. And they're upset because they're not seeing that like same type of result. They're like, oh, I've been doing this for six months too.

Why don't I look like that? Or why haven't I lost that type of weight? So it becomes just a, what does she have? What is she doing differently or whatever? Not necessarily from a, I know I can do that too based on seeing that before and after photo. It's coming from a place of like, what does she have that I do not have?

And that is very much a fixed mindset. And that is what, big surprise, we do work with our clients on very heavily at KJO Coaching. So in those situations, that's where you really need to start to pay attention to when you're doing those things. And that's why I brought it up to begin with

because you can't change what you don't know needs changing. You can't improve what you don't know needs improving. So in this case, we really need to kind of take stock of where our fixed mindset is showing up. And in this case, if you are extremely jealous, very envious of other people who are doing the thing that you want to do, and you can see where that is potentially getting in the way from you actually aspiring

to be like them and to do the things that they did and seeing them as true inspiration and as a exhibit A of what is possible, then yeah, we probably have some mindset stuff to work on there. And I do, I see it, like I said, granted, I am very much immersed in the health and fitness space, but I do see it a lot there, especially when it comes to weight loss. I mean, where, where my thoughts immediately go, and this would be with me if I were to, if I were to feel that way about somebody who's doing something or they've already done something that I want to do or wish I could do is, and that

makes me feel bad in some way, I would view that as irrational. There's something that doesn't quite make sense about that. And then I would immediately jump to, well, maybe I feel bad about it because I know that I'm not giving it my all. I'm not working as hard as I should on this, or I'm just making excuses, or there's something that I'm doing that I don't want to face, so to speak, maybe that I would be a little bit ashamed about. And that person's success is subconsciously, I guess, in a way, reminding me of something that is wrong with me, really, that I have not addressed. And I guess that also is just a comment on not to go backward, but on setbacks, something that has been useful for me, just a framework is when I experience

setbacks that... And I do this even with things that seem to be out of my control, where it's hard to point to how I contributed to the situation. But I always do try to look at how did I contribute to this setback? What did I do that maybe helped bring this about? And what can I learn from this? And how can I maybe experience less of this going forward? Again, from the perspective of my own actions, what's the lesson I can take away from this? And again, I don't want to go backward per se, but it just makes me think of that because again, in this case of seeing other people doing well, that would just be my initial thought would be, this doesn't make sense. I shouldn't be.

Now, it would maybe make sense if somebody knew that this is something I really wanted to do. And then maybe they had done it. And then they are like dumping on me and criticizing me about how I'll never be able to do it or something where then, and then maybe I get a little bit angry or a little bit annoyed. I would look at that as a rational response. That's probably how anybody would respond to that. But if I just see somebody who's done well,

and this is also, again, I don't want, I feel like I'm making this all about me. Hopefully these examples are instructive to some degree for people listening. But for me, even if I see somebody who has done a thing that I really want to do, and they are very arrogant about it, that doesn't bother me. I don't care. For whatever reason, I still am like, oh, that's cool. And if I did not respond that way, and if I did not respond,

like you said, with curiosity, maybe I can learn something from this person. I wonder how they did this. If I don't respond in that way, my immediate instinct is to assume that, oh, there's something going on with me. And I should probably look at that because maybe I can learn something from that. Yeah. And I don't think your response is the norm, unfortunately. Again, not that I'm just going to like hype up your mindset this entire podcast, too. But that I think everyone, please listen to what Mike is saying, because he's basically exemplifying the most like a perfect growth mindset, right in these instances. So you're like, perfect. Yes, my plan is working.

Yes. Yes. My plan is working. Yes. Yes. But truly, though, like if you like the even in the small moments that Mike, you may not even you're kind of like, this is just like what I do. I don't know. Like, I feel like it works well for me.

And I'm like, yes, like that's what everybody needs to be doing. There's small moments in between where instead of just immediately responding or immediately reacting, you're thinking to yourself, well, wait a second, why, why am I thinking this way? Or why did this feeling bubble up? Like, what's going on here? Where's this stemming from? And like trying to get a little bit more curious and be the researcher once again, on what is going on instead of just like automatically what most people do is like, if I have a thought, then I believe it and I act on it, the end, and that's not necessarily ever going to be the case. And would rather you take a second to say like, okay, I had this thought. Do I want to

entertain this thought? Does this thought make sense? Where did this thought come from? What core belief is it buried in? Obviously, you don't need to ask yourself all of these questions every single time you think about something. But actually taking some time to take a step back and review where this is coming from, rather than just like, oh, I thought it must be true. Or maybe maybe even worse, I felt it must be true, gonna act on it. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So the more you can essentially remove you from your thoughts and be the like onlooker, the observer of those thoughts, the better. Because then you get to decide, does this thought have any merit? Is it something that I actually want to take into account before I make my next action decision? I lash out at this person or not, or whatever it is, you can actually that

moment in between is the most important is also that is your growth mindset at play thinking like, okay, what is the best reaction here? Let's think about this a little bit more. Let's get the whole story before we just like my fixed mindset takes over my fixed mindset doesn't want to be wrong or has seen it done this way over and over again. And this is the way it has to be. So I'm just going to say this because that's what my fixed mindset is saying. What are your thoughts on paying attention to your emotional state in the context of making decisions?

Something, again, I'll just speak for myself that I found helpful is basically not making any, certainly not any important, like irreversible decisions, but trying to avoid making, let's just say, let's just say important decisions. I mean, if it's a decision what to eat for dinner, no, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about stuff that maybe is a little bit more consequential when I'm in a negative emotional

state, when I'm angry, when I'm annoyed, when I'm not very fearful person, but if I were to be fearful or sad or whatever, I intentionally can think whatever I want to think and I'll feel the way I want to feel. But I wait until and maybe that means I have to even do something. Maybe it's the next day or whatever to bring myself into a better emotional state. Minimally, I mean, ideally, maybe I'm like enthusiastic about something or I'm feeling particularly good. At least I have to be no worse than bored, but I don't think that's even a great state to make decisions in. So try to get into a better emotional place before making decisions. I've just found it interesting

that the decisions that seemed most appealing when I was in a bad emotional state would basically universally have just been bad decisions. They would have only made things worse. Whereas the same situation, I waited a day or two, okay, I'm feeling better. And then the decisions that were most emotionally appealing, which are the easiest decisions to make, the ones that you're just naturally drawn to are much more constructive in character. Yeah. And I think that's kind of placed to what I was just speaking about before, like the space in between, you know, taking some time to process before making the decision, taking the action, what have you. And yeah, for sure, under emotional circumstances,

everyone who's listening to this podcast has been in a situation where they were emotional in some capacity and made a decision, said a thing, did something that they later were like, if I wasn't feeling that way, I wouldn't have done it that way, right? So creating space is always going to be a good thing, assuming you can afford to create that space. And everyone's gonna be different on like what amount of space is always going to be a good thing, assuming you can afford to create that space.

And everyone's going to be different on like what amount of space is needed. It might just be like, I just need to close my laptop and go for a five minute walk and come back and I will feel better. Or some people may be like, maybe it's a larger decision or something like that.

I really just like, I need to back away from this conversation. I need to leave myself in this room for the evening. I'll see you in the morning. And then we'll have a more constructive conversation. And I think it's really, really important and really cool once you can get to that point of understanding what your capacity is in those situations and knowing like, okay, I know how I'm feeling right now. Anything I say going forward is not going to be something I actually want to say. So please give me five to 10 minutes and we'll come back to this. And like, that is

emotional regulation at its finest and is really, truly the best way to go about making decisions and moving forward with things. You had mentioned the importance of the people that you surround yourself with. I think that there's an emotional component to that as well. I've said before that I think it's wise to exclude people from your inner circle who are perpetually angry, fearful, sad, sneaky, conniving. We all are those ways. We all feel those ways now and then. But if somebody is consistently in a negative emotional state like that, this is just speaking for myself, then they're not going to be really a part of my life unless circumstances are such that if it were my kid or something, fine. But if I can just move them out of the circle, then that's what I'm going to do. Does that make sense to you?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Just because there's so many types of behaviors that seem to go along with those different types of emotional states. And if somebody is consistently an angry person, I mean, think about when you're angry, what's the type of, what are the types of things that sound great when to do when you're angry, not very good things. And do you tend to be an honest person when you're angry? Do you tend to say things that are completely true? No, you don't. And so forth. And so that's kind of the logic. Yeah, no. And I think definitely makes sense that if you are around someone who is consistently angry or consistently like, I have had people in my life for sure. They're just like consistently negative and complaining about things all the time.

Chances are like those people, let's talk about the negative complainers, right? They're likely not very motivated to do things because they're like so upset with their current situation. So kind of like looping this back to the conversation of motivation and also how your motivation does find its way to you from other people in your life, whether we want it to or not, they are going to influence it. So if you're surrounding yourself by these people who are like in these like negative emotional states of some sort, and that's also impacting their motivation, most likely, that's going to impact you. So being kind of choosy about who you put yourself around is going to be always, always, for every reason, very important, but also from a mindset

and motivation perspective, extremely important for sure. Totally agree. And I know we're coming up on time. And I could go on and on. Maybe we should maybe shoot another one if you're if you're up for it. Because this was this was a great discussion. I really enjoyed it. I hope you did. And I hope everybody listening did. And why don't we wrap up here with where people can find you can find your work if there's anything in particular that you want them to know about? Yeah, for sure. So as far as where to find me social media wise, I am Coach Casey Jo on Instagram. You'll also find me on TikTok and YouTube, but I'm doing my best. I probably don't go there first. So definitely Instagram is the place that I like to play in. If you're looking for more free content

around some of the topics that we talked about today, I talk all about mindset, self-sabotage, habit formation, motivation. This is kind of like my bread and butter in the psychology blended with fitness space. So you can find me there. You can also find me at my website, which is my first and last name, caseyorvitas.com.

And that will take you out to various other websites to my health mindset coaching certification for other coaches or KJO coaching for one-on-one coaching. Awesome. Well, thanks again, Casey, for doing this. And seriously, it'd be fun. It'd be fun to do another one if you're up for it. Yeah, let's do it. Well, I hope you liked this episode. I hope you found it helpful. And if you did, subscribe to the show because it makes sure that you don't miss new episodes. And it also helps me because it increases the rankings of the show a little bit, which of course then makes it a little bit more easily found by other people who may like

it just as much as you. And if you didn't like something about this episode or about the show in general, or if you have ideas or suggestions or just feedback to share, shoot me an email, mike at muscleforlife.com, muscleforlife.com, and let me know what I could do better or just what your thoughts are about maybe what you'd like to see me do in the future. I read everything myself. I'm always looking for new ideas and constructive feedback. So thanks again for listening to this episode.

And I hope to hear from you soon.