Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Stephen Guise on Using “Elastic Habits” to Create Positive Changes That Stick

Episode Date: December 13, 2019

If you’ve been in the fitness game for any amount of time, you know that consistency is the key. It takes months of work to see any major changes in the mirror, and it takes years to see how fit you can really get. This is why developing good habits is a major element of long-term fitness success. Motivation comes and goes, and often without rhyme or reason, but habits can endure. You're far more likely to stick to your diet and training plans when they're as ingrained into your everyday routine as taking a shower or going to work rather than something that may or may not happen depending on how you feel day to day. Developing good habits is only half the battle, though. You then have to protect them against the vicissitudes of life. That’s why it pays to have “elastic habits” as opposed to rigid ones—habits that can “flex” according to your ever-changing circumstances as opposed to shatter. That’s the premise of Stephen Guise’s new book, Elastic Habits, and what today’s discussion is all about. I’ve had Stephen on the podcast before to discuss his previous bestselling book Mini Habits, and this time around, he talks about why he wrote this new book, how it differs from his first, and why his elastic habits system is a natural “next step” for people who are ready for a more robust and rewarding approach to habit building and optimization. So, if you want to learn some simple and highly practical ideas for using Stephen’s unique elastic habits model to create positive changes in your life that stick, hit that play button! 5:35- What are elastic habits? What is your take away on habits? 8:58 - How does elasticity and resilience apply to habits? 12:55 - How do you use elastic habits in your life and what are some examples? 19:13 - How do you track your habits? 19:38 - Do you share your template on your website? 23:05 - Do you do any myth busting in your book? 29:54- How long does it take to establish a habit? 30:22 - What do you recommend for people to start making good habits? 33:46 - How can you eliminate bad habits? Mentioned on The Show: Elastic Habits by Stephen Guise Stephen’s Website Mini Habits Website --- Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.legionathletics.com/signup/

Hey, Mike here. And if you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, and if you want to help me help more people get into the best shape of their lives, please do consider supporting my sports nutrition company, Legion Athletics, which produces 100% natural evidence-based health and fitness supplements, including protein powders and protein bars, pre-workout and post-workout supplements, fat burners, multivitamins, joint support, and more. Head over to www.LegionAthletics.com now to check it out. And just to show how much I appreciate my podcast peeps, use the coupon code MFL at checkout and you will

save 10% on your entire order and it'll ship free if you are anywhere in the United States. And if you're not, it'll ship free if your order is over $100. So again, if you appreciate my work and if you want to see more of it, please do consider supporting me so I can keep doing what I love, like producing podcasts like this. Hey there, and welcome to another episode of Muscle for Life. I'm your host, Michael Matthews. And if you have been in the fitness game for a while, you know that consistency is key. for a while, you know that consistency is key. It takes months of work and discipline to see major changes in the mirror and on the scale. And it takes years and years to ultimately see what kind of body you are really capable of building. And this is why developing good

habits is a major element of long-term fitness success. Motivation goes, but once they are established, habits endure. You are far more likely to stick to your diet and training plans when they are as ingrained in your routine as taking a shower or going to work rather than something that may or may not happen depending on how you feel in the moment and developing good habits as important as it is it's actually only half the battle because then you have to protect those habits that you've established against the vicissitudes of life. Life always finds ways to get in the way and to throw us curveballs and

prevent us or try to prevent us from doing what we want to do. And that's why it pays to have elastic habits as opposed to rigid ones. Habits that can flex according to our ever-changing circumstances as opposed to shatter. And that is the premise of Steven Geis' new book, Elastic Habits, and that's what today's discussion is all about. Now, I've had Steven on the podcast before to discuss his previous book, which has done very well. It's called Mini Habits. And this time around, Stephen is going to talk about why he wrote this new book and how it differs from his first and why this elastic habits system is a natural next step for people who are ready for a more robust and rewarding approach to habit building and optimization. So if you would like

to learn some simple and highly practical ideas for using Steven's unique elastic habits model to create positive changes in your life that stick, this episode's for you. Here's the interview. Hey Steven, welcome to my podcast, man. Thanks for taking the time to do this. Thanks, Mike. It's good to be here. Yeah. Is this the first time?

Have we done an interview before? We have done an interview about many habits, my first book. I thought so. That's right. So now we're here to talk about your newest book. And then of course, we'll get into some practical takeaways that people listening can use to improve their habit hygiene, so to speak. And this is something that I wanted to have you on the show because I'm a big believer in developing good habits and maintaining good habits. And I definitely practice that, but it's not something that I've

written much about or spoken much about just because I guess I just, I get lost in all of the health and fitness stuff that I'm doing more of the mechanics of, you know, losing fat, gaining muscle, getting healthy and so forth. But this is a major part of the overall process of the bigger picture. If someone is going to ultimately have success in their fitness, it is going to involve good habits. Now, whether they explicitly set out to establish those habits and maintain those habits, or if it just kind of happens organically, either way, they're going to be doing certain things right. And that is what is needed to reach the goal because it just takes too long for anybody who's getting into fitness, whatever their end goal is, it's not something that can be done in

a few weeks or even necessarily a few months. For most people, it takes a few years. And to be able to stick to a system that can produce results over several years, habits are a huge part of that. So yeah, I think this will be a great discussion. Maybe to start, I think we should just start with your newest book. The title is interesting, Elastic Habits. And of course, that raises the question, what does that mean? And what's your kind of unique take on habits, which is a very popular topic these days. And a number of books have been published over the years that have done very well. So I'm curious as to how your book, what's different about your book? Why do you call it elastic habits and what does that mean? And how do we use that? Yeah, that's a great question. When people hear the word elastic, they think of things like yoga pants and rubber bands.

But the word resilient is actually a direct synonym of elastic. And if you think about elastic materials, they're more resilient than rigid and brittle materials. In physics, there's what's called the elastic limit of a material or the amount of material can stretch until it is permanently deformed. So if you look at a rubber band, it can stretch a good amount before it's permanently deformed, before it loosens or breaks. And then there's also the elastic modulus of a material, which is a material's resistance to temporary deformation. The modulus is low for the rubber band because obviously it's easy to temporarily deform it, but it takes quite a bit of pressure to permanently. Yeah. So a diamond would have a very high elastic modulus. So this is an interesting way to think

about elasticity because it actually makes things stronger. And that's something I talk about in the book. Flexibility is strength because it allows you to improvise, allows you to overcome whatever obstacles are in your way. And that's a popular, also a popular idea these days. It makes me think of the pop stoicism that has been probably primarily pushed and promoted by Ryan Holiday, right? This idea of resilience and being able to bounce back from hardship or anti-fragility, nascentileb, or to leave that concept where not only do you come back from hardship, but you come back stronger. And that's really what you need to be able to thrive in the world and so forth. Yeah. And I think that's great. I love those books. I read them. But

one thing I've noticed is those are typically mental tools. They basically try to talk you into being that way and that can work to some extent. But I think what sets this book apart is that it's rooted in habits and action. Which is a more effective way to change the subjective, just change the objective. And I wrote about this in a book of mine called The Little Black Book of Workout Motivation. into a new mindset at the snap of finger or at the turn of a page, change fundamental ideas and beliefs that are often rooted in your sense of identity. It can be done, but it is very hard. In most cases, none of us can do it very well, period. It is actually much easier to just change your actions and allow that to naturally change your attitudes and your

beliefs and your ideas. Yeah. And until a behavior is habit, you are basically having to fight yourself to do it. It's a very important threshold to breach if you want to have success. Yeah, I agree. So then what you just explained about elasticity and resilience, how does that apply to habits? And I guess that kind of gets into the premise of the book. So put simply, an elastic habit, as I have defined it, has nine win conditions as opposed to the typical one win condition of a habit. What's the one win condition versus the nine that you're proposing? So one popular challenge I'm sure you've heard of is like the 100 push-up challenge where you try to do 100 push-ups every single day. That's just one win

condition. If you hit 100, you win. If you don't, you lose. So an elastic habit has what I call lateral and vertical flexibility, three by three. For an exercise habit, you would have three lateral options. Say you can do yoga, you can go for a walk, or you can lift weights. And then each of those options would also have three vertical levels of success, which could be stated as easy, medium, hard. So then the idea is it allows you to not have an extreme, just kind of binary, you know, the only way to feel like you did well is to do a very intense weightlifting workouts five days a week with your model. Then it could be, well, okay, you might do an intense weightlifting workout on Monday and that's a win. And you might just go for a walk and 20 minute

kind of casual walk on Tuesday. And that's a win. It's different kind of win. Maybe it's not as great of a win. Even we don't have to pretend like it's the same physiologically, at least, but Hey, it's a win. And then the next day, maybe a medium intensity yoga session. That's a win. And then maybe you get back to the intense weightlifting. You can kind of build that chain of successes internally as opposed to it's either all or nothing. Exactly. And that's something I've talked about a lot in my previous books that all amounts of progress are success because every success is made up of smaller bits of progress and success. So with an elastic habit, you have that flexibility to get these small, medium, and large wins

in whatever quantity fits your life that day, that time. And you don't need to feel bad about it because you're making progress every single day. And it helps with the... I think there's actually a, there's a, isn't there a technical term for this is activation cost, or it's just that initial hump you have to get over to start doing something. Cause that's usually with at least what I've experienced with any activity, that's where the resistance is greatest is before you start. But once you start doing something within 10 minutes or so, you often want to just keep doing it. Where people often fall down though is they just never get started. They can't get over that. They can't muster enough will or energy

or whatever it is to get going. Yeah. And one really critical thing for me is I came to Elastic Habits from Mini Habits. I was one of the pioneers of the small habits movement because I've kind of got a lazy nature to me. So, I was like, all right, I can't do amazing things every single day, but I can at least do this one small thing and maybe more every single day. And to me, that changed my life. But eventually, as I progressed and got stronger in every sense of the word, because I applied it to fitness, I started asking myself why my goal had to be the same every day, because some days I wanted to do more than that little mini goal of say one push-up. So at that point, it was more of a detriment to me than a help. And that's where

the idea for Elastic Habits came. And so how does that play out? Like how do you use this model in your life and what are some examples? So you gave one specific fitness example. I'm just curious to hear now some of the more kind of practical elements of how do you use this model to get more of what you want out of life, right? That's really anybody listening right now. That's probably why they're listening. That's probably why they care about getting better with habits. It's not just an abstract, like, oh, it'd be cool to be just, you know, good at habits. It's more about a means to an end, right? Yeah. So, something I talk about in the book are motivational sweet spots. And there's actually some science to support this too. There was a study they did on what motivates us

best at certain stages of goal pursuit. And they found that in the beginning of a goal, say your goal is to do 100 push-ups. In the beginning, it's more effective to set smaller sub-goals of say 10 push-ups at a time that motivated people more and they had more success at that stage. In the latter stages, say when you had already done 70 push-ups, then the smaller sub-goals were actually, I wouldn't say a detriment, but they were less effective than pursuing the bigger picture goal of just finishing 70 to 100 push-ups. That kind of paints a picture of what motivation is. We have how attainable is the goal. That's something that motivates us. If it's one push-up, I can do it in between these two sentences. That's really easy to do.

And albeit a very small win, it's still a win. So there's some value there. And then you have goal value, which is the overall, what's the return on my invested time and energy? So you have goal attainability, goal value, and a spot in between, which I call goal respectability, which is not a great amount, just a decent amount. And it's respectable. And it kind of combines the two extreme points. It's very relevant to writing a book. I mean, I've written about this concept in a little bit different way where there's research that shows that in the

beginning, you might be talking about the same research, but it's the same concepts. It's just worded a little bit differently that in the beginning, what you don't want to do. And, and I've even experienced this myself. And I would say I'm generally someone who doesn't struggle with discipline or motivation or habits. I just do the things I need to do for the most part. I mean, nobody's perfect, but is don't think about all that you have in front of you, especially when you're beginning, because this is the first step of, let's say, a thousand steps that you're going to have to take. Even if it's not demotivating, because maybe you're a person who's not easily demotivated,

it's not motivating. It's not motivating. Take writing a book. It's not motivating when you think of you just started on the first page and you're like, cool, word one of, you know, 100,000 that I'm going to have to write and edit and blah, blah, blah. It's more motivating to just look at the progress that you're making and that you have made. So looking back, so, okay, you wrote 2000 words your first day. Great. You've started. And then on the next day, you've written another, let's say it's 1000 words. Okay. You've written 3000 words and purposely ignoring the bigger picture of you still got a lot, a lot of words to go. And, but then research showed that as people moved toward the completion

of the goal, it was more of motivating to think about how much is left because it's more palatable. So when you've now, let's say that you've written 60, 70,000 words and Hey, you only have 30,000 words to go. Then that can provide more motivation than just thinking about, well, I've already written 60,000. I wrote another 2000 yesterday. Now I've experienced that myself. It's like a little, I don't like to use the word hack, but I think it's a useful little lens to view work projects through. And I've found it makes the process more enjoyable. It may not affect productivity so much for me, at least it does make it more enjoyable. And I do intentionally do that in the beginning, just focus on that. I'm making progress and looking back on

the progress that I've made so far. And then as I move toward the end, focusing on, hey, I'm almost done. I just have to get through, you know, this is the last bit. And then I find that it just makes it more exciting. Yeah, I think that was the same study. They actually did four separate experiments and they all confirmed this hypothesis that sub goals were better in the beginning., goal value was better in the end. Yeah, exactly. It's probably is the same research. What are some other practical examples or uses of this elastic habits model that you either talk about in the book or you use personally? So I personally use writing, reading and fitness. My reading elastic habit actually only has one lateral option because there's only one way to read a book. So I just have three levels of success there.

And what are those specifically for you? The mini level, as I call it, is two pages. I call them mini plus and elite for small, medium, large. Plus level is 15 pages and elite is 50 pages. I'm not much of a reader. And that's the great thing about this system is it adapts to wherever you are. I started at one push-up a day, then I went to three push-ups a day, and then 10 push-ups a day for the bottom mini level. That's just because that's where my baseline went. Whether you're elite in an area or you're just starting out, an elastic habit can go along with you the whole way. And I guess the idea, the game, right, is to move your average over time upwards. So move it to

where you're generally in the plus and elite levels. And maybe you have a low day here and there, but the low days become more and more infrequent, right? Yeah. And I definitely recommend tracking so you can see and feel this progression the whole way. How do you track? I've actually created custom tracking for the system because it required it. You can't really, you could maybe use a generic habit tracker, but it wouldn't be as nice as the ones I've created because I use color coded stickers. So if I reach the elite level, I just put a red sticker there. If it's mini, I put a green sticker there. It's just really easy and satisfying. Do you share your template for this on your website or?

satisfying. Do you share your template for this on your website or? Yeah, I actually sell the products on my website, minihabits.com. And a few readers have actually created spreadsheets. Yeah, that's what I would think that you could also assign numeric values, just one, two, three. And if you see that your average number is going up over time, for example, then that's a good sign. So in the book, I don't recommend the one, two, three. How come? Just because it implies that, which is correct, it implies that elite is much better than mini. So, psychologically, you could get into that all or nothing mindset with that. I recommend symbol iteration. And what I use, what I say in the book is draw an empty triangle for many, fill in the triangle for plus, and then make the triangle filled in square for elite.

It gives you the same information, but it doesn't necessarily say that elite is so much better than many, because that's kind of the problem this addresses is the all or nothing thinking that says, oh, I can't work out for 45 minutes today, so I'm just going to sit on the couch. Yeah, I could see that. I guess it takes away some of the psychological impact, even if it is subconscious of numbers. In general, our culture is very obsessed with numbers and quantifying things. So I could see that. I will say that there is a scorecard attached where you do then after the fact, calculate your score for the 15 day period or the month. So you can quantify it later. But I think when you're in the midst of it, you need to have kind of an open mind

to all three levels. I see. And so when you're quantifying later, then it is like a one, two, three, you're just adding up basically. And there's your score. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That makes sense. Hey, if you like what I am doing here on the podcast and elsewhere. And if you want to help me help more people get into the best shape of their lives, please do consider supporting my sports nutrition company, Legion Athletics, which produces 100% natural evidence-based health and fitness supplements, including protein powders and bars, pre-workout and post-workout supplements, fat burners, multivitamins, joint support, and more. Every ingredient and every dose in every product is backed by

peer-reviewed scientific research. Every formulation is 100% transparent. There are no proprietary blends and everything is naturally sweetened and flavored. To check everything out, just head over to legionathletics.com. And just to show how much I appreciate my podcast peeps, use the coupon code MFL at checkout and you will save 20% on your entire order if it is your first purchase with us. And if it is not your first purchase with us, you will get double reward points on your entire order. That's essentially 10% cash back in rewards points. So again, the URL is legionathletics.com. And if you appreciate my work and want to see more of it, please do consider supporting me so I can keep doing what I love, like producing podcasts like this.

Do you do any myth busting in this book? Anything that people generally believe about habits that are either not true or just don't really work in practice for most people? Yes. One myth, which the book attacks head on, I think is, I called it the Goldilocks lie, which is the idea that there is a perfect spot, one goal spot that will meet all of your needs every day. People are always searching for the right spot. Where should my goal be at? Should I put it up high so I'm amped up to reach it? Should I put it right in the middle where it's attainable but still has value? The truth is that spot changes every day because we have bad days because life happens. We need to have some amount

of flexibility to be able to continue without feeling like we've failed. And is that a flexibility of the goal though, or the process? It's, I would say both. Because, okay, let's say practically speaking, let's relate it to fitness. Let's say somebody's getting into fitness. They say, you know, if I could have it my way, if I could get my ideal physique, it would require losing about 30 pounds of fat, let's say, and 20 or 30 pounds. And I picked that number because I hear from a lot of people who that's what they tell me. And I understand where they're guys, let's say, and they go, you know, I'd love to be, I don't need to be seven, 8% body fat, but I'd love to be maybe 10, 11, 12% where I just look fit and I'm lean and

athletic. And for women, the female equivalent is 20%, 21%, 22%. And so they're starting quite a bit higher than that. And they have a lot of fat to lose. How might that play out in the context of what you just said? Well, I think you would work backwards and say, what do I need to do to make this happen? You would have an ideal process of how exactly that would work. And then if you made it elastic, you would allow some flexibility or give yourself some leniency as far as following that plan exactly. So you might say the ideal for me is to work out for an hour every day. But realistically, you might not want or need to do that keeps you out of the gym a couple of days. And if you have a busy life, then inevitably something else is going to get in the way of workouts and even deloading, right? So intentionally reducing training intensity for a week to allow the body to catch up in terms of recovery. A lot of people don't want to do that because they feel like they are, if not necessarily moving backward when they deload, but it just doesn't feel as productive and they feel like they're losing ground by deloading. So yeah, there's definitely

a psychological aspect to once you set your mind to something. And I understand I'm that kind of person. When I set my mind to something, oftentimes that is all I want to do until it's done. And in the past, I haven't been great about, I kind of put on blinders and just go and not be too concerned about maybe other negative kind of consequences in other areas of my life. Like in my marriage with my wife. We've always had a good relationship, but there have been periods where I've gotten so obsessed with my work that I'm not really around that much. And when I am around, I'm kind of not really there.

You know what I mean? And so it's that, again, that all or nothing kind of mentality where where my natural instinct is to want to just go all cylinders all day, every day until I have arrived. And if there were days where I wasn't able to do that for whatever reason, it would actually bother me. It wouldn't derail me to where I'd be like, oh, fuck it and just give up. Definitely not. But it would just create more, I would just get annoyed. It would just annoy me. So that's something that I wouldn't say I've worked on it. I don't know if that's the right word, but I've definitely improved in that way. And that I've seen now that, Hey, what you're saying is right. There are some days where everything is just the way you want it. And you're able to do exactly what you want. You make a lot of progress and the things that are most

important. And then there are days where that's just not the case for one reason or another. And it's okay because if I look back and look at what I have achieved in the things I've been working on, I go, well, I've got a lot done. A lot of good things have happened. And this is the way that I've gone about it. So maybe on those days when I have to come home or I have to leave work early because my wife needs help with something or maybe she's not feeling good and I have to pick up my son. I don't need to be annoyed about it, even if I'm not going to turn into a raging dickhead, but it doesn't have to necessarily bother me. It's okay. I still made some progress. Maybe it was only a mini day, but hey, that's okay because tomorrow can be better. Or maybe it's going to be several mini days and that's okay, because tomorrow can be better. Or maybe I need to, it's going to be several mini days.

And that's okay, too, as long as I can get back to, as long as I keep my average where it needs to be to do what I want to do. And that also means then being flexible with timeframes, which I think is relevant to weight loss, too, where you can go, ideally, I would get there by this period or by this point. And that might be based on some solid reasoning and you might work it backward in terms of calorie deficit. But instead of just saying, well, by this date, I need to be here. It probably should be more like a period, a range of time that's going to shift probably in both directions and more likely in the direction of taking a bit longer than you

want to take, but that's okay. That's just how things go. likely in the direction of taking a bit longer than you want to take, but that's okay. That's just how things go. That's all awesome. And I think it points to one of the issues, if not both of the issues of all or nothing thinking. One reason it's problem is because it can just burn you out. If you're choosing the all side of the all or nothing, you're probably going to burn out eventually. The other side is the nothing where you're not doing anything. So, you're either burning yourself out or not making progress. So, I think there does need to be some flexibility there. Yeah, I agree. Are there any other myths that you debunk in the book? I'm sure there are. None are coming to mind at the moment.

Okay. I'm just curious because people always like that when there are things that, you know, we've all heard. What about, and this might be something actually you addressed in your mini habits. What about the idea that, oh, a habit takes people throw on different numbers. How long does it take to establish a habit? So it no longer feels like effort and it's feels then natural how long does it take to get to a point where you know that i guess really what it is right is where doing the thing is easier than not doing it and that's the point where you just know it's going to get done like i know that tomorrow i'm going to be in the gym unless Unless there's some weird extenuating circumstance, there's no question. I'm going to be in the gym working out.

It's such an ingrained habit, you know? Yeah, I think there's only one study that's been done on this and they found 66 days was the average. But that's possibly one myth that needs to be debunked is that there's a magical day number that we need to reach and then bam, we have a habit. It's much more like a spectrum because the brain takes time to learn and process and there are actual neural pathways that are getting stronger. it's the same type of process where you're getting stronger slowly day by day. And in the same way, your habit is getting stronger day by day. And you will notice things like, oh, well, I don't really resist going to the gym. And then, oh, I would prefer going to the gym as opposed to

not going to the gym. Right. And how does that fit into the elastic habits model? Like, how do you recommend that people start? Because if they have several different, let's say, activities that they can choose from to reflect whatever it is, whatever the habit is, and to help them progress toward the goal and then different levels of intensity, do you still just generally say, hey, start with the mini habit approach, start with something so simple that you can't say no to it. And then once that is, you know, BJ Fogg, I know he has a book coming out as well on habits. And I think one of his things is that it's that concept of it's got to be so simple that you can't say no to it. And you're not allowed to

do more than that. So if it's flossing, for example, is the habit, then it is, you start with flossing one tooth per day and you're not allowed to do more than one tooth until flossing one tooth per day is on automatic. Then you can increase the intensity. What are your thoughts on that and how it would fit into the model that you have shared in the book? I do not agree with that at all. I think one of the frustrating things about these small habit systems, including many habits, is that on some days you do want to do more and on some days you can do more. And why wouldn't you do more if you're able to do so? You shouldn't feel like a system is ever holding you back because that will make you

resent the system and then the system is not going to work for you. I've had so much success personally with Elastic Habits because I have that freedom to get the huge win on any day. I can also get a small win. And one really powerful aspect about this is you can combat whatever negative thought you're having about your goal progress. If you're feeling burnt out because you've been just going crazy, hitting the big target every time, then you can go for a mini win and take a little break. If you're frustrated because you're only getting these tiny wins, well, the big win is right there for the taking if you want it. So, I really think the flexibility of this system sets it apart and

helps us to basically make our goals fit into our lives instead of the other way around where we're trying to force this rigid goal into our life, which is dynamic and fluid. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. How might this apply to wanting to eliminate bad habits? So, everything that we've discussed so far is establishing good habits. What about stopping things that are getting in our way? So, basically, this book does not address bad habits. I think that's a whole other topic. So, I did not attempt to apply this model to bad habits. Though it possibly could, I haven't really thought about it yet because I don't want to half-ass it, you know? thoughts or even personal experiences with it because it's just the other side of the same coin. And oftentimes some of the biggest obstacles that people need to overcome to establish a good habit is the elimination of a bad habit. That's probably more often the case

than not. It's rarer, at least with the things that are more important in life to find someone who is kind of a clean slate and they just need to get going. You know what I mean? Like oftentimes, for example, people have tried things in the past and then they failed and then that happens often enough. They eventually just go in the other direction and say, well, fuck it, whatever. And so now they're in a place where they first have to dig themselves out of or climb out of the hole that they've dug themselves into before they can even start really progressing, you know? Yeah. I think it depends on the bad habit too, because if it's something where you're trying to wean off of it, like some sort of substance

addiction, then I could see this flexible model being helpful where you're saying, if I only have one cigarette today, it's a plus win. If I have none, it's an elite win. So that could possibly be helpful for a bad habit like that. Yeah. And that's a lot of bad habits though these days, whether it's a true addiction or not, like a physiological addiction. Okay. Nicotine is addicting period. There's no question. Is sugar addicting in the same way? No, almost certainly not research shows, but yes, it can have certain effects in the brain, but then you get into a weird place where it's like, yeah, but anything pleasurable has those same kind of effects. So what we can say though, is that whether it's smoking cigarettes or eating sugar or watching TV where it gets excessive or

watching porn or any of the kind of instant gratification, social media, video games, all there's just so many, there's so many things that we can quote unquote get addicted to, or just get, it's very easy to get fall into the habit of over consuming these things, or in some cases, just consuming them at all drinking alcohol, for example, that idea that you just shared, again, it's not something I've looked into in terms of research or even real world practicality. But at first glance, it seems to pass the sniff test. It seems to be something that could certainly be useful. Oh, I think it could. Again, I just haven't really thought about it. I just wanted to focus on this one side and kind of what you were saying about bad habits and good

habits. It's also true that if you increase your amount of good habits, it can naturally decrease your amount of bad habits. For example, if you're being more productive and being fit, that simply leaves less time for the bad habits such as social media and watching TV. So they can kind of crowd out some of the weaker bad habits that aren't, you know, a serious psychological, physiological addiction. I totally agree. And I would say that you'll probably need to do that to really have the best chances of success at eliminating bad habits. Sure, there's a replacement of the time in that. So let's say getting up early, right? That's a popular thing these days. Wake up early and it's going to change your life.

let's say getting up early, right? That's a popular thing these days, wake up early, and it's going to change your life. And what that is getting at, though, I think the main reason why that has helped many people is, it does just force you to use your time more productively. That means you have to go to bed earlier, which means you're probably going to be watching less TV and spending less time on social media and just dirtling around on the internet. And if you're waking up early, and if you're sleeping well enough, you're going to wake up with energy. You're going to wake up awake and you're naturally not going to want to go sit down on the couch and watch Netflix at 5 a.m.

It's just you're going to be naturally drawn toward when your willpower and your energy and your motivation is at its highest towards something productive. You're going to be like, well, shit, it's 5am and I have hours now before I have to even be at work. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to read and I'm going to work on my little side project because shit, why not? Because I have the time. And then as the day goes on and your energy levels wane and everything just kind of winds down, it's just, I think, more in line with our biology and our psychology. And then there's, so there's that point of it. And then there's also the point of that you are changing your identity by doing those things. And you start to become the person that does spend more time on productive activities than non

productive activities. And whether you consciously realize it or not, it happens. And certain things now just aren't appealing anymore. You don't want to go and go binge Netflix for hours on a Wednesday night. It's just that you get to a point where you're like, it would be so uncharacteristic of you. There's really no chance it even happens. Yeah, exactly. Along those lines, I think something

that's not talked about enough is momentum. We're very sensitive to momentum, whether we're doing good things for ourselves or bad things for ourselves, you're most likely to do what you have just done. And that's regardless of whether that's a good or bad thing. So yeah, when you get up at 5am and you're like, oh yeah, I'll go to the gym, that's most likely going to lead to more good decisions later in the day and on a broader scale later in your life. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree.

Well, hey, this was a great discussion, Stephen. I really appreciate you taking the time to come and do it and sharing some information from your newest book, which is Elastic Habits. And where can people find the book? Obviously, on Amazon, but elsewhere as well, or is it an Amazon exclusive? If you want paperback, that's only Amazon, but the ebook is available on all major stores. All major, yeah. Like, so what, Barnes & Noble, Google Play. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Particularly for people,

I get asked fairly often by people who can't get an ebook through Amazon. So then they're, and they don't, they don't know that like Google Play, for example, has stores in, I think pretty much every country, iBooks also you can. And Kobo also. Yeah, yeah. True Kobo. All right, cool. Well, Elastic Habits. And then where can people find the rest of your work? And where's your online hub if they want to check out your other stuff? My website is stephenguise.com, S-T-E-P-H-E-N-G-U-I-S-E. That's my main blog. And then all the book-related stuff, Elastic Habits, Mini Habits is at minihabits.com. Great. And I'm assuming elastic habits.com was taken. That's why you don't have it. I do have it. It redirects to many habits.com.

I just wanted it all under one roof. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. All right. Well, thanks again, Steven. I appreciate it and good luck on the book release. Yeah. Thanks Mike. I enjoyed it. Hey, Mike here I enjoyed it. natural evidence-based health and fitness supplements, including protein powders and protein bars, pre-workout and post-workout supplements, fat burners, multivitamins, joint support, and more. Head over to www.legionathletics.com now to check it out. And just to show how much I appreciate my podcast peeps, use the coupon code MFL at checkout and you will save 10% on your entire order. And it'll ship free if you

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