My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 10 - Murderous TENdencies

Episode Date: April 1, 2016

This week's topic is "weird murders," featuring Who Put Bella In the Witch Elm and Richard Chase (The Vampire of Sacramento). Plus murder books and personal stories galore!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Microphone check. Check one. One, two. One, two. Check the thing. Check it out. Y'all stay in the podcast. Okay. So a kind of a wrap beginning the night Karen and Georgia lost their minds. I have to say this would be it. Is this episode 10? Oh my God. Hi. Happy 10th anniversary. What a gorgeous day for the two of us. This is what? Wood? Is this a wood anniversary? This is the wood anniversary. I got you a sign that says would you murder me? Yeah, they carved it at the fair

for you. So, um, God, did you ever think we'd get when we were recording the first one that we would record nine more? I never thought we'd get this far. I mean, it is special. It's a special thing. It was a thing that we talked about a couple times and then we actually did. Then we just did it without ever talking about it again. We're just like, let's just fucking do it. Which I think is like, that's how you do things. I think so. Don't overthink it. No. Don't be afraid to fail. Don't overplan. Don't plan. Floss. And floss and wear SPF 30 or higher. You heard the song. You know what you're supposed to wear. I mean, listen. Look. Look and listen. Look and listen. Wear your mother. Watch. Watch. Wear your coat. Listen to your mothers. Karen and Georgia. Listen to your

mother. Listen to your mother. I'm Georgia. I'm Karen and this is my favorite murder. Welcome to my favorite murder. X. Right? That's 10. Oh, yeah. X. Yeah. Little sexy thrown the sex in always. Always gotta be sexy when you're getting murdered. Got to. Have to. Stay. Stay so. What? Stay so. Stay so sexy. Stay so sexy. As a favor to us. Welcome back. We are highly trained professionals. We have radio backgrounds. We have NPR background. We have PhDs. We both have PhDs in podcasts. We both have PhDs in podcasting. You don't even know what you guys. What if we went to Yale for podcasting? We just haven't bragged about it yet. We could be teachers there. We could. The first teachers. Where we're like, here's what you got to do with podcasting.

You got to record it. Listen, I almost graduated community college. I feel like I am ready for this. Yeah, you're ready. And I flunked out of state college. I think you're supposed to do that, aren't you? I hope so, because I sure did with flying colors. I think I got like a point one, two grade point average. I mean, you know what is really boring? Math. School. School and math. Listen, kids, drop that. No, don't do that. Listen. We have insane influence over kids. I like the idea like the kids that are listening. It's like this eight year old being like, I'm not going to school because Karen and Georgia were like, don't do it. Then they told me about terrible murder. I'm going to be a podcaster one day. Oh, Jesus. But there is someone on our podcast, Facebook group,

who's going back to school to become a forensic scientist because of us. No. Legit said, listening to this has inspired her. Yay, because she wanted to do it before. And then like, yeah, she's always been in love with true crime. And she said that you guys helped inspire me. So we don't take all the credit, but there's fucking credit there. Sounds like we get 75% credit. I feel like we're going to her graduation. I would completely go. I really would. I absolutely would. Oh my God. I will. That's so exciting to me. It's the thing that we both would love to do. God bless your education. Do it. Help people. Yeah, saw some fucking crimes. You're probably not going to make a lot of money, but fuck money. Listen, money is for suckers. Look, look and listen.

No, do it. You know, you'll make a decent amount of money. Yeah, I think so. I mean, listen, I've learned, listen, I've learned, look, look, listen and learn. You only need a certain amount and it's more than you're going to probably make. But do it anyway. I have made no brag, but this is true in times of my life. I've been so in debt that my father has told me to move home and I've also made so much money that I could have anything I wanted. And I was absolutely miserable when I had all the money and I had the best time in the world when my dad was like, seriously, pack it in, give up the dream. I do think back about that because I've been the same place where like I had to borrow money from my mom for rent who also has no money. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, that's the worst. Yeah. And I've had a shit ton of money and listen, life is easier when you have a little money. Of course. But it's just as fun when you don't. And it's something freeing. Yes. You don't have as much weighing you down. And also it's good to have, it's good to be challenged. It's good to have hardship. And I'm obviously, we know, we're saying that with a grain of salt of like, think life can be hard and then we're not saying. And we're both talking about in the past five years. It's not like when we were in our fucking 20s. I'm talking about the last five years I've been like, yeah, I've had this experience recently where I was money did not make me happier. All I could figure out to do with myself was order cashmere sweaters off of J

crew. And then and I just ended up giving them to my cousins because yeah, they ended up being this weird symbol of like, I don't I'm not about that. I don't really give a shit about that. I wish I could give all the millions of meals I've eaten that I've paid so much money for. Oh, that's worth it. Well, yeah, I guess the the first thing that made me think of was like amazing French bread. Oh, like, I've eaten, I've eaten millions of dollars in carbs. There's no way that's not true. Well, because you do it professionally, I do it professionally, and I love carbs. And then yeah, you do it voluntarily. I do it voluntarily. You have very good taste. Thank you. The thing is, to instead of wanting money, you want to be doing

for a living what you actually really love. That's why it's great. She's going back to school. I didn't know that was a thing. Like, I really didn't think that would be a thing for me in my life, that you'd be able to figure out what you loved. And I didn't think I could do it for a living. So I would never state what I loved, because it felt too cocky. Yep. To be like, I want to be a writer or I yeah, I want to be a little I want to be on camera or whatever the fuck it is. It just felt stupid to say that I wanted it. Yep. So you can just tell yourself, you don't have to tell anyone else. Right. But also you get it just as much as anyone else should get it. Like you're as deserving as anybody. My grandma saying was bigger dummies than you.

Yeah. And that applies to fucking everything. Yeah. I promise you someone way more stupid than this girl has become a forensic scientist. A bigger dummy. 100%. Right. Yes. So she can do it too. She can not only do it, she can improve the field. Absolutely. Fucking to believe because she likes it. Speaking of, I'm reading a new book. Okay, let's hear that. I mean, I'm listening to a new book because I'm obsessed with audiobooks. Okay. I am listening to a book called No Stone Unturned. It's the true story of the world's premier forensic investigators. Remember, like I think episode one, we talked about NecroSearch. Yes. It's a book about how the how NecroSearch came to be, which started with them burying pigs to study decomposition and what

happened to bodies. But what's so cool about it that I didn't realize is they all come from a wide range of backgrounds from, I'm reading this, geophysicists to cadaver dog specialists, to chemists, rank-and-file cops. And no one is allowed to address anyone as other than their first name. They can't say doctor or so. No one's a. There's no elitism. None. Nice. And everyone is just as important. And everyone's, it's the book, the book is like a testament to socialism. I don't know. It's really good. Well, because like we've talked about a bunch of the times where like when cops, when the culture of policing gets in the way of solving crimes, because people are like, oh, we're going to keep that. I was going to say our district, our, you know, department gets

that, you know, case or you, you see it all the time in law and order, whatever. Sure. And you don't want someone's help and you don't want, you don't, you don't share information. It's the whole thing that happened during the Sodiak killing and he killed in all these different counties in the Bay Area. There should have been sharing information. Yeah. Well, this is really cool because, uh, I mean, all their only goal is to find buried bodies. That's what the Necro search is, is buried bodies or, I mean, so corpus indelecti. That's not delicious bodies. Indelecti. It's such a rat. It's a rad book. If you're really into forensic science and all these fields and how, you know, for just forensic detectives, it's a good fucking book.

And they're just trying to help solve cases. It's like a new way, right? It's in the beginning, they're looking for one of 10, but Ted Bundy's victims based on what he told them where he hid the body. And so they're like a bunch of them get together to go try to find this girl's body. And there's somebody there that's like, that kind of tulip only grows if that kind of tulip only grows if this, if you take a photo when the sun is rising or the sun is setting, you'll see indentations in the grass that you won't see. Otherwise that means that the, the soil has been disturbed. The part of the book. It's so good. The part about the bloodhounds who find bodies is like adorable and incredible. They're like such good fucking dogs. They're very stupid. It's also

apparently, but you know, they do these little things like they furrow their brows when they're sniffing and that's to store the scent in their brows. And when they need it, they unfurl their brow and they get the scent again. They do all these little weird things. I mean, this is the kind of shit that the book tells you about. And it's written really well. And there's also updates because it was written like 90 something 91. So that's amazing. My dog is half hound. And she is hilarious because they, yeah, they look different. Their faces change so much. Like when she is excited, her face looks one way. And then when she's like concentrating, she looks totally different. That's really funny. I just heard that their lip flaps are long and they go

over the bottom lip because it collects the scent in their mouth. Like it gets it all up in their nose. Oh, when they're here, because their ears flap, it, it kicks up dust so they can smell the dust, the dirt and the dust. Wow. What the fuck, right? Yeah. So it's called no stone unturned. It's on audible. I highly recommend it. That's amazing. What's your book that you're listening to or reading reading? Do you know how to read? I can read. And I just bought it's the book called lost girls. And it's about that fucking serial killer on Long Island. That baffles me. Okay. So somebody on our Facebook page, I joined the Facebook page, by the way, everybody. Oh yeah, Carrie. No, no, no, you didn't join the Facebook page. You joined Facebook. I went, thank you.

I went back to Facebook. This was, I made a very dramatic exit on Facebook in 2011. Everyone liked one of those. Well, nothing had actually happened, but everybody, it was, I was in a writer's room and everybody was talking about how irritating Facebook was, but they were also talking about how they were addicted to it. And you wanted to one up everyone. And well, I'm so, such an addictive personality that like, I can't not look at things and I get really, you know, you want to know, did somebody try to get ahold of me and it's all that craziness. I completely understand that. And it makes me live in a world that doesn't exist. Totally. So as everyone was talking about it, I was recognizing every single thing everybody in the room was

saying. And I just really fast and without overthinking it, just went and deleted my account. I did that with Twitter in like 2009. Oh, you did? Do you know how many fucking followers I'd have at this point if I hadn't done that? I know. A shit ton. Shit ton. But you wouldn't be any happier because followers are like money. I like, I said, I like money. Oh, that's right. So yes, I rejoined Twitter, but don't tell anyone I was fucking camp with. They're the other reason I quit. Someone with your last name joined the My Favorite Murder podcast. Really? Facebook. Susan? No, Sarah. Susan S. Anyway, I was scared it was your niece because I was like, she's too young for this. Nora. No, Norik. Nora's last name's gonna,

well, I won't say her last name, but she wouldn't. My sister doesn't let her on social media yet. You know, as of this very moment, we are about 50 people away from 2000 followers. Holy shit. No, I'm not gonna say followers because that sounds kind of sending group members. Yes. And they are the fucking, it's the best group. It is so fun to go on there. I have, so my book, somebody recommended it on that page. And then I listened to, I think it's, it's a podcast called, I think it's called Crime Garage. Have you heard that one? It's two guys and they were talking about the, they had updates on this murder, which I had heard about, but I wanted to hear the updates. Are there updates? There were updates of just like new things that they had found,

but I realized as they were talking about it that I needed to know what they were talking, I needed to know more details. And then somebody posted, whoever posted on the discussion page about this book, when I read the reviews, it was like, this is an amazingly written book. It's funny because I've never wanted to, there's something about that case that I, I can't wrap my head around the fact that that person is still out there. And that one of, one of, one of the murders of the woman who ran away from that guy's house, there's a woman who went to, to dance quote unquote at a party house and freaked out and ran away and was then found dead. And like the host, the answer is in there somewhere. That's what

bothers me about that so much is the answer is so obviously in from when she died to when she got to that guy's house. Yes. And that's exactly what the crime garage guys are saying. I hope that's the name of that podcast because that's what they were, I listened to it as I was in the grocery store one day. I'm almost positive is, but that basically the cops haven't interrogated the person who had that party because he's crazy rich. They were just like, no, he has nothing to do with it. But didn't she also go to some guy's house who like takes in wayward female, like one of the doors she knocked on with some dude who takes in wayward females. Well, I've only read at this point, I heard their podcast and I've read like the first 10 pages. But this book is written.

It's written. It's giving you the backstory of each of the bodies found. So they're not bodies found. They're these young women who have these rough upbringings, but like these mothers who busted their ass all their life to get their girl to get her to one better place. And then she was like, but I'm really pretty few bucks. Yeah. That's what kind of bother in the book. I'm no stone unturned. It was like about the Denver serial killer. He was like, they were like prostitute started started showing up dead. And it's like, can't you just say women? Right? You can't just say women started showing up. There's such an, there's such an innuendo when you're, when you specifically say that prostitute started showing up. Well, that's exactly right.

And you can feel yourself care less than if they were like a 16 year old cheerleader from this high school, some blonde, like we really do have a caste system. They live a more, they live a more, what's the lifestyle we were talking about last week? Oh, high risk. They live a bit higher risk lifestyle. So it's more like, like you get into some random dude's car wants to pay you for sex. There's a much higher chance you're going to get raped and murder, but that doesn't mean you deserve it. That's exactly right. And that doesn't mean that they shouldn't look for you. I mean, listen, I'm going to be honest, like there have been times in my poor life where I was like, I wish I could just be a stripper. Yes, I could just go to job both clown room and dance a couple of fucking dances

and make money. It would be nice. But that's also the imagination of thinking that's an easier life. It's not an easier life. It's actually a really, really hard life. Totally. And it's that it's young women always. And it's that idea of like, it was when Craigslist first came out and they were like, I can make some money this easy way. I don't have to stand on the street, which is very risky. I can just go to rich people's and in your mind, as a young girl in your young 20s, you're thinking, I'm a hot girl, some rich guy's going to come and pay me. I'm willing to do that to get ahead. So I can like, and if you think any, any woman wants to be a prostitute and want not even the word prostitute, like we need a new, we need someone who's like a part-time lover,

you know what I'm saying? Like a word. Well, because no one wants to do that unless they're mentally ill. Or yeah, it's it the thing that it should bring to mind and people is desperation. Yeah. Like trying to get above a poverty line. All those things, like it's yeah, there should be more empathy than we shouldn't turn off because we hear that it should be like, oh no. Like what they don't say, like, you know, a 20 year old grocery store clerk was murdered. Right. That doesn't why would that I know. And also I really love those crime garage guys because they were just one of the guys was saying, we should be protecting women. The idea that like, they say prostitute and suddenly that's like everyone's puts their hands up and goes too

bad for her. It should be the opposite. I think cops do that too a little bit on some level. Right. Unfortunately. So we need to train cops not to, you know, I feel like sit down with that cops should be able to have to sit down with five fucking brought the ex prostitutes who who are just trying to explain how, you know, why they're doing it and what they're doing and how they don't want to do it. And yeah, but, but at the same time, like some cops do spend a lot of time with probably like it's almost like they're out there seeing the life they're leading. And then it's like, well, they're not. Yeah. It's a moral judgment that shouldn't be taking place in trouble with cops for saying that because I know there's some really good cops who who

aren't judging women for doing that and are trying to help them. And I it's human error both ways. But I think it's that the thing we say all the time where it's just like, stay sexy. Ultimately, we're, we are talking. We're talking so much about these victims and are the question mark above their head. How much have we talked about this fucking serial killer who has gotten away with killing over 10 women? These bodies are just like dumped next to this highway. Children, isn't there like someone's daughter or something like that? I don't know. Because I've only started this book, but I mean, it's fascinating. And it's like this, this killer is just behind a wall somewhere, just totally protected knows who he it's so weird to

know that like, I mean, I wonder if there's this part of him that's like, I know the secret to this and no one else does. And yeah, that's exciting somehow. Well, and if it's like the jinx where if they're paid off or they're so rich because they're out, you know, it's out by Jones Beach. It's out like way upstate New York. Yeah, it's Long Island. It's like way up Long Island. Really nice area. Crazy. Everything's gated. You know, it's all that. It's all it's in a bag. I don't know. It's fascinating. So anyway, I'm excited about that book and whoever recommended it on the discussion page. High five. I can't wait till we find out who he is. I know. And this is gonna we're gonna have an emergency episode that we will have to like in the at 3am get the

call and be like, get your podcast or out because we got a record. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wunderies podcast against the odds. In our next season, three mask men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chautchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort. But the trail quickly runs dry. As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wundery app. Okay, you're gonna go first this week. Yeah, go versus week. So we're ready for our favorite

murder. Are you ready? All right. So this week we're doing I picked it up. I picked a topic and then I hated it. So I made I said Karen, what's your dream topic? Do you remember what the topic was before? It was vintage unsolved. Oh, right. Then I got really angry and was like, I can't do this. Yeah. And I said, Karen, have you pictures yet? And you said, no, which is a dream topic. And then I just didn't answer you. Because I was like, Myob. Mind your own business. No, no, not at all. You said, you said weird murders. Yes, which like basically is we've done so many already. I mean, we've also done like kids killing kids. We've done so many things that like, we're the category idea. Yeah, we're just trying to organize our thoughts. So it's trying to help us like, go down a path that's

not an infinite path. Yes. Okay. So but also like what murder isn't weird. Ultimately, it's kind of an aberration just in it. But you know, well, I thought there was a couple that I wanted to do. And I also don't want to do one that everyone like there's something about the, maybe it's just the podcast, the Facebook group that like, everyone in that fucking group knows every murder. Yes. Like they know everything, which is like so fun, but I don't want to disappoint them. Yes, same. You know what I mean? So, so I picked one, I was going to do the Tom and shoot case. Yeah, you know, I mean, where it's an unsolved case of an unidentified man found dead in 1948 in Australia. And in his pot, he watched up on the beach and in his pocket was a piece of paper with the phrase

Tom and shoot, which means meaning ended or finished in Persian printed on a little scrap of paper. And they don't know who he is or it came from what his deal is. It's fucking, it's a fascinating case if you don't know it, which you probably, everyone probably knows it. And it's still unsolved, right? Yeah. Okay. And so is this one, the one that I picked as my favorite word murder called who put Bella in the witch Elm? Is that yours? No, no, no, but I just listened to, I just listened to a different podcast about this. It's great. It's also called the Hagley Woods mystery sometimes. This is a good one. So in April 1943, which is obviously in the middle of World War Two, four boys from Stourbridge, in the UK, were poaching when they came up.

Can you say that one more time? Stourbridge, UK. They were poaching, they came across a large witch Elm. It's spelled W-I-T-C-H or W-Y-C-H in different, different postings. I can't really tell. I think it's W-I-T-C-H. And the, they found a witch Elm on an estate belonging to a Lord. They thought it was a good place to hunt birds nest. And so they tried to climb into the tree to investigate and they found a skull. And they thought it was an animal. And then they saw human teeth and hair attached to this. And they had found a human skull. So they went, they were like, here's a great idea. Let's not tell anyone because we'll get in trouble for being on the Lord's land. Like you guys, if you ever find something, say something or you look fucking

suspicious. Your parents won't be mad at you for being on someone's land if you find a skull. Everyone knows Lords are dicks. Look, we've all dealt with asshole Lords before. We've all trespassed on land that belongs to Lords. And if you find a body, you should tell someone. So the youngest kid, it was like, of course it's the youngest kid. He was like, I'm here, mommy. Mommy. Mommy. And he told his parents and the police checked the trunk of the tree. They found an almost complete human skeleton, a shoe, a gold wedding ring, and some fragments of clothing. And then on further investigation, a severed hand was found buried in the ground near the tree. The body was examined by Professor James Webster. And he established that the skeleton was a female who had been

done for at least 18 months. And the time of death must have been around October 1941. He discovered, this is the best, a section of taffeta lodged in her mouth, suggesting she had died from asphyxiation. And I wrote, or from fashion. In my notes, she did. She died from the 80s. Oh, Georgia. Oh, Georgia, go for it. Go do it. Do it. The measurement of the trunk, which the body was placed in, made him think that she must have been placed there still warm after the killing as she could not have fit in once rigor mortis had taken hold. Rigor mortis is, I'm fascinated by it. It's just, oh my God. Because it sets in, but then it goes away, right? I think it goes away after like 10 days. But you could, I feel like you can also break it. Oh, with enough force. Listen, everyone

put on the Facebook group whether or not this is true or not. Yeah, what do you know about rigor mortis? Clearly someone knows something. That's a good podcast too, by the way. So it's our offshoot podcast. Someone knows something about rigor mortis. Okay. So the woman's murder was in the midst of World War Two in the UK, which clearly had a lot of action going on. So it hampered the investigation. Police could tell from the items found what the woman looked like. What was so many people reported missing during the war, they really couldn't tell, like find out who it was. They did a nationwide search of dental practices, which came up with nothing, which I feel like in 1941, the nationwide search of dental practices was not very thorough.

Yeah, you're like calling up on one of those like crank wall phones of like, you know, yeah, hey, age three, nine, four, seven, eight. Have you seen a cap on, on insides or three? You know, we don't do those here. Yeah. Bye. And it's also a barber shop. I love our, I love our dental. Hey, we are. They're British people that talk like they're from the Bronx. From the, from a movie, from the wrong. This is good radio. But again, all the, just the facts here, you guys, that's all you got. The facts and only the facts. This is a real boring podcast. So people eventually kind of forgot about the woman in the tree until the graffiti started with an ominous fucking line. This is the beginning of Banksy. So someone wrote who put Lulebel down the witch Elm

and graffiti. And then someone wrote the Hagley wood Bella. Then someone wrote who put Bella in the witch Elm and the graffiti appeared on walls throughout the West Midlands, which is near where it happened, seemingly by the same hand, which is a fucking, I love handwriting analysis so much. Me too. It was last painted on the graffiti was last painted onto the side of a 200 year old obelisk, which is like spooky as fuck. Yeah. On the 18th of August, 1999, in white paint, that's some, uh, that's some, uh, what was the, the, that's some toy and be tile shit. Yes, that's right. It just continues on. What the fuck. So let's see. Okay. A couple theories that the hand buried close by could have been a hand of glory, which I actually talked about recently on

Summer Party. Uh, it's a dried and pickled hand of a man who has been hanged, often specified as being the left hand, or if the man was hanged for murder, the hand that did the deed. And they, at old European beliefs, attributed the great powers to the hand of glory combined with a, they made it, the fuck, basically they made a fucking hand of someone who was hanged into a candle. And so when people would break into someone's house, they would bring it with them for good luck. Oh, that's pretty much what it was. So it was a, uh, occultist type of thing, which is like, look, there's a hand buried nearby. What does that mean? I feel like the glory part is a bit of a misnomer. It's horrifying. It's a, it's a disembodied hand. Horrifying. Like they put the wicks on the

tip of the fingers. Like if someone broke into my house with that, I would run. So of course, it would get away with it. Take all of my jewels. Bye. I'd be like, bye. Okay. Bye. You got me. Later days. So, um, so I read this part from, this is all from like Wikipedia and random like websites. This is from the unredacted. It wasn't until 1953 when journalist Wilford Jones started to write about the old case. Um, that interest was revived. Um, and he would soon receive the first solid lead in nearly a decade. This is a 1953. There was a letter signed only Anna offered new details of what had happened to Bella. According to the letter, Bella, I love this, had been murdered because of her involvement with a Nazi spiring operating in the Midlands in the early 1940s.

Yes. No, I'm obsessed with World War II and Nazis. Love them. Uh, hundreds of German spies were captured in Britain during the war and, and the Midlands would have been a valuable source of intelligence because of its prevalence of munitions factories. Wow. Really fucking cool. So the journalist never think of England is having spies like that. It's like, yeah, because it's an island over by itself. Yeah. How did they get there? Well, this is what was our theory. No, no, no, I didn't write this down, but this is one of the theories that she parachuted in and somehow ended up in the trunk of the tree, which I call bullshit on that theory. Maybe someone, maybe she parachuted in and they found her and killed her and put her in the tree.

The idea that you would parachute in to be a spy and you would parachute down into into the forest, the trunk of a tree. Yes. You're the dumbest, unluckiest by the worst at parachuting. Listen, she's in a plane. She grabs, she gets scared. So she grabs a handful of her taffeta stuffs it in her mouth. She doesn't scream too loud on her way down, hits her arm. Her hand comes off. The force buries it in the, in the ground. This is all absolutely feasible. Do it's doable. It's doable. Wait a second. What material taffeta is like prom dress as taffeta isn't parachutes, right? No, taffeta, I feel like it's an underskirt material or maybe it's a lacy collar. Okay. Like a high, like Victorian lacy collar. It's not like Nile line. We're not talking,

it's a different thing. Yeah, that would be cool. I thought I had a theory, but you know, at the same time though, these stories are passed down so long that it, someone could have said it's taffeta and that stuck. True. Which is the problem with these old crimes is like, they just get told so many times that these things would come back. So I'm going to say that she had parachute Nile unstuffed in her mouth. Let's change the story to work for us. We're flipping the script. Okay. So then the journalist got a letter from this woman, Anna claiming Bella had died after getting involved in a World War II Nazi spiring. And she said, finish your articles on the witch elm crime by all means. They're interesting to your readers, but you will never solve the mystery.

The one person who could give the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of the earthly courts. That's a great way to say someone's dead. We're now called my favorite beyond the jurisdiction of the earthly courts. The affairs. I know the affairs closed and involves no witches, black magic, or moonlit rights. Basically, this which is like, I know what's fucking happened. Oh, shit. So you think that which did you say which or bitch? That bitch knows what. No, no, which is black magic or moonlight rights. Like she's saying it wasn't witchcraft. Because it is in the forest. I know. Creepy. Yeah. And she's found in a fucking trunk of a tree. Like that's that's some some what was the the show recently with?

Mary Harrelson. No, Woody Harrelson. Oh, true detective. That's some true detective shit right there. Season one, baby. Season one, fuck season two. Season two is slop. Although we did see Colin Farrell at the movie theater the other night. I almost told him your performance in true detective season two was masterful. The only saving grace of that that season. And my girl Rachel, Rachel McAdams, I do love her. No, she just bores me. She just talks like this all the time and she bores me. I know, but she has perfect like she always has a good bob. Yeah, she's a great bob. She has a nice tall forehead. I'm jealous of her face. She has a tall forehead. I really do because mine is like a three head. It is the shortest.

All my bangs are an atrocity. Nothing works. Nothing works. You should shave the front part of your your forehead like like an Edwardian. Yeah, just get it waxed and it'll look like. I know God, I want a bar like how Bart how you used to cut your Barbie's hair off in the front for me. I think here's bang is still growing. You know, I used to do baby bangs like in the early 90s when I was a big drunk like little foofies. I can't tell you how my face looked like a straight up full moon. I looked like the blood moon walking around working at the gap. You talk about your photos from when you were younger so much and I've never seen them. I'm dying to see them. I've I've scrubbed the internet of them. Please don't scrub my brain of them.

Okay. Sorry. No, this is the best part. After subsequent correspondence, Anna revealed herself to be a woman named Oona Mossup and told the full the full story. She said her husband Jack worked on a local munitions factory again the munitions factory in the early 1940s and come into some money after meeting a mysterious Dutchman. He later admitted to Oona that the Dutchman was a Nazi agent and Jack had been passing him information about the local industry industrial sites. Listen, you asshole. Yeah, this is why we fucking lost the word. No, I mean kidding. We actually won the word. I'm totally kidding. Um, let's see. So which in turn was passed to another agent posing as a cabaret performer at local theaters. The Midlands had been bombarded by the

Luftwaffe in the early 40s and such information would have been invaluable to the Nazis to target their raids when they would have done the most damage to Britain's war effort. One day Jack met his contact at a pub close to Hagley Wood. He was arguing with the Dutch with a Dutch woman. This Dutchman was arguing with the Dutch one. He ordered Jack to drive them both out to the the Clint Hills, but the argument had grown extremely violent and the Dutch agent strangled the woman in the car. Fearing for his own life, Jack helped carry the body into the nearby Hagley Woods where the pair buried it in the hollow of an old tree. That sounds reasonable. Yeah, that sounds like a reasonable explanation. Also, sorry to say, but it's kind of a good idea to

bury a body inside of a tree. Totally. It's like, uh, it's like now how they're doing, uh, they're doing burials when you can be like, I want to be a pod and you can get buried in the woods now. Oh, right. Um, but it's against your will. But it's only the only difference. Listen, stick with me. It's an eco burial, but you don't have a choice in the matter. Um, this totally makes sense to me. And I was going to say something else and I forgot. So yeah. Oh, oh, I feel like there's so many murders that are solved because an ex-girlfriend, a jilted ex-love or ex-girlfriend is like, Hey, FYI, here's what happened. Totally. I didn't say because I was scared from it, which I totally believe like you eventually tell. Yeah. I mean, because that guy had a lot to lose.

If he was like passing info, treason, if she said anything, yeah, he, he probably told her, I'll kill you. If you, I mean, like, yeah, she thought he would die. She didn't want him to die either. She loved him. Yeah. And then he slept with her sister and she was like, listen, fuck this dude. Is that the reason why she said, Oh, okay. So Eunice husband was apparently so traumatized by the brutal murder, murder, murder of Bella that he had a nervous breakdown tormented by horrific visions of a woman's skull in a tree. And he was institutionalized in 1941 and apparently died later that year. So that sounds totally plausible and feasible. And it sounds like it happened immediately. Like it, he went through the trauma and then just freaked out. It turns out,

nobody knew this, but Nazis are assholes. Oh, yeah. They should have mentioned that in the 40s. So that America could have got involved in that war earlier. Get it. And I said it. You heard me. And I said it. It's like everyone from there. That air is dead. And I don't care that you said it. It's true. There's like one 90 year old veteran that's like, how dare you? I came here to listen to a motor pod guest. Not a rant against the Luftwaffe. Yeah. So that sounds, I like that theory. Again, I like it and it fits very well. And it could have changed a lot. And who knows if it's true, but it's a good one. Yeah. There was a second possible victim, but being a prostitute, some prostitute, again, prostitute, some woman who sold her body

for sex, which was forced to write stated that another prostitute called Bella, who worked in the hack on the Hagley Road disappeared about three years previously. So, you know, there's a, that could have been the same woman too. True. I like that one. So yeah, you guys want to, there's, you can actually, there's actually a good photo of the skull. If you go online, it's called the, so this is the who put Bella in the witch Elm or the Hagley Woods mystery. You can see some cool photos from back then. Every time I watch like British TV, I want to go there because it's such a rich and storied past, but stuff like that, like you don't even think about it. Aside from the fact that they got the shit bombed out of them during World War Two,

and it was like total chaos and insanity every day. Can you imagine these like, these proper British people got the shit bombed out of them? And they didn't react like that. What I love is that it's so British to that whole keep calm, carry on where it was just like, nobody was allowed to be like, can you believe this shit or freak out or anything? They're all like, all right, are you ready for tea? Well, even the, even the army, the British army was like, there are these, here are these rules that we have to follow. And I think that's why we had to step in is that we're like, there, there are these rules of war, but these Nazis are not following them. No. And you think that the combat is this like old tradition. It's not anymore. But you know,

these proper British people, God bless them. I know. And just, just the fucking amount of civilians that were just game is awful. It's crazy. It's on both sides. World, I mean, yeah. Yeah. World War Two. I will fall into any World War Two black hole, that whole thing. Anytime it's a people going back, what I really like is when people go back and try to talk to German people, citizens today, from that era, and how defensive and freaked out they get. Yeah. What, what an incredible scar on the history of German people and how terrible they feel and how it would, it's just a strange thing. Well, if you ask them, it's not, it wasn't their fault. They weren't, you know, they weren't part of it. They weren't supporting it. I mean, I totally understand why

someone like Adolf Hitler would have looked so appealing in the beginning. Yep. And that was a country that was like on its knees for years and years and years. But because we, we made them do that after World War One, we spanked them. Yeah. Not that they didn't deserve it. But it's just that thing of like, keep an eye out for somebody lit that likes a scapegoat. It's usually scapegoats are usually a minority person. Yeah. Can't speak up for themselves. I'm going to say it. What you are not saying. Donald Trump. Let's not get into it. That motherfucker. Yeah. Oh no, we just lost thousands and thousands of listeners. Good. Oh, those, I don't want them. Look, those are the people who come after us. Those are not our 2000 Facebook group followers.

Please, are you kidding me? That would be unbelievable. So I just love that one's weird to me because I just love that she was found in a tree and it's just so fascinating to me. It also feels like that's the kind that you feel like in maybe five years they'll have that solved somehow. I feel like it's one of those ones that it's solved in that there's some obvious explanation that one. That one I just read, but it's too late. It'll never be. And then isn't it weird when you hear about vintage murders and you're like, he's 67 now and he got arrested. You're like, oh my God, I thought he'd be dead. Yes. He's 67 or whatever. But that guy, I mean, it's such a, that's a tough arrow pointing straight to the guy that immediately has a nervous

breakdown and basically dies. I mean, I kind of feel badly for that guy because yeah, what is it going to be like? No, Nazi who just killed your like counterpart. Yeah. I'm not going to help you. Right. Of course he is. Of course he is. And now he's stuck. He can't tell anyone because he's being treasonous. He's treasonous. Bitch. Guys, do not sell your government secrets. Should I do my note? I cannot wait to hear yours. You're excited about it. Listen, excited is a word we could use. Also, I freaked the fuck out of myself because I've been, I've known about this one for a while and I've been trying to jam this one in like when Georgia said, which what do you want to do? And I was like, weird murder. It's like the first thing I thought of for this.

But once I started really reading details, I remembered, oh, that's right. About 10 years ago, I watched a documentary about this and boned myself out so hard that I just kind of put it out of my mind and never thought of it again. I'm already having nightmares from the Facebook group. So this is going to be fun. This is right. This is going to be right. And I'm sure most of the people on our Facebook group know this guy too because he's, he's, he's not in the like, you know, he's not a top tenor, I don't think, but he's up there. It's Richard Chase, the vampire of Sacramento. And I know that once again, I'm talking about Sacramento. No, there's so many murders that happen in the, in Northern California. Yeah, there really are. There's a lot of country.

There's a lot of space, wild space. It's almost like hillbilly-ish in some areas, shockingly. I, I hear what you're saying about my upbringing, but fine. I don't care. No, I just mean like there's, there's farmland. Yes. There's a lot of space for people to really do what they feel at night. Making meth. We're just making meth, tons of drugs. Yeah, there was a lot of acid up there. I mean, like, that's where the, I'm also listening to right now. Have you ever heard that you must remember this podcast? Yes. I'm listening to the Manson murders one because so many people, there's, there's a woman on our Facebook page who mentioned it and was like, is anybody else listening to this? I'm going crazy. And people all talked about it. But I had already heard,

I think Patton was talking about it on Twitter because Michelle McNamara talked about it on, no, maybe she didn't, but she talked about a murder in like Laurel Kenya that might have been related to Manson murders. And maybe she mentioned it. I'm not really sure. Okay. It's a great podcast. And it's like, talk about like a fucking high end music cues, all that. So it's like our podcast. It's just like this one. Brilliantly written, concise, effective. And like, they don't, they take it seriously. They don't make fun of murder. We're not making fun. I know we're not. Okay. I can't wait. Your notes look. I'm not because I almost barfed in my car. I was sitting, I got here a little early outside Georgia's apartment and there's never parking on her street.

So I was like, basically, bring your knives over to. So I was like a block and a half away sitting in my car in the dark. It's okay. Next time pick me up and I'll walk with you. Oh, okay. I never thought about that. Yeah. But you were like, once I got up here, you're like in your slippers. Yeah, but I come to choose on so fast. Okay, good. I'm glad we worked this out on the air. I will. Cause I'm gonna next time. But normally I never have that feeling. I've lived in this major city by myself for fucking 25 years. And tonight, in writing about this, this serial killer in the dark in my car with my iPhone light on, sitting there and then a guy walked right by my car and he was talking either on the,

I'm sure he's on the phone. It scared me so bad that I was like, Oh, this I got to get out of this car and walk up the street. You might have just had a fucking intuition about him. Let's say you did. Let's say you're super intuitive and you're like this and he's a murderer. Oh, I'm definitely intuitive. I think we all, we all know that you and I are very intuitive. I think I just found the Zodiac killer and he takes the bus near your house. I just hear Karen on the street yelling Santa Santa Ross. There he is. So the vampire of Sacramento is a man named Richard Chase and he did all of his killings in one month, but his whole life led up to that month. He he was, he had a terrible abuse of mother. By the age of 10, he had the McDonald triad,

which is as we all know, arson, bed, wedding and cruelty to animals. That's called what? The McDonald triad. And that's a theory. Now people, yeah, there's no each of those, but when they are combined, a lot of people look at that and some people say that is a direct link to serial killers, but actually that's been disproven. What it is a direct link to oftentimes or more often, I should say, is abuse, brutal abuse of parents. And that's what Richard Chase, what are they? Bed, wedding, bed, wedding, arson and cruelty to animals. So it's like, if you have a proclivity to this, usually it's the bed, wedding is the first. Yeah. If you're being controlled because it's uncontrollable. And then the rage is arson and cruelty to animals. So it builds if it, if it

doesn't stop or if, you know, the kid hurts me in my heart. I know it's terrible. So he, this, I was telling, I was eating lunch with April, April Richardson, our friend and telling her about this. And she basically goes, Oh, this guy had no choice. This guy was going to be a serial killer no matter what, because this, all of these things in his early life do add up to it. And when he was in high school, he had girlfriends and stuff, but, but nothing ever lasted because he couldn't maintain an erection because it turns out he was only sexually aroused by the killing of animals or the stabbing of people. How did, okay. So the killing of animal erection probably started first, obviously. He accidentally got an erection one time while he was killing a mouse.

You know, it's nothing with like a like a foot fetish where it's like your foot, your genitals get rubbed by a foot. It's like a beautiful woman with like a, you know, whatever. And then you associate boners with. Yeah, it gets imprinted on your brain or whatever. But I think they say with stuff like this, this is like crossed wires. This is bad. This is bad wiring. I'm already seeing someone writing you associate boners with like, you know, the pot, the people on the Facebook are from writing this beautiful quote, like the hilarious quote, like with a peach photo in the background, he associates boners with feet, with feet. It happens all the time. So, okay, so, so of course, then he's gets in, it's the 70s when he's in a teenager and older. So he's super

into acid. And then he starts and they so they're never really sure if it's drug induced psychosis or if it's paranoid schizophrenia. Later on, they're like, he definitely a paranoid schizophrenia. But if you do enough LSD, you can actually induce trigger your skin. If you were going to have schizophrenia 5050 and you do a bunch of drugs, it's going to happen more likely, right? Or or there's also, I don't know, I don't know about that. Maybe somebody just keep doing that. Maybe someone else can be a part of this research. But they they were talking about drug induced psychosis is is basically a parallel thing. And it would happen the same time because people who were starting to experience paranoid schizophrenia were would try to self medicate. They weren't

on medicine and they would drink, they would get high on pot and they would they would do acid. And this was the 70s where like, nobody thought it was that bad. Yeah, it wasn't that big of a deal. Yeah. So so to kind of quickly synopsis, he basically he started going to the doctor all the time and telling the doctor that somebody was stole his pulmonary artery, because his heart was stopping. Yeah. And that also his cranial bones were moving around and coming out of the back of his head and he ended up shaving his head because he was so positive that this was happening. Terrifying thing to be sure of. Yes. And if you're having that organically in your brain, but then you're doing acid. Oh, dude. I mean, horrible. Not like Karen and I have ever done

acid multiple times, but no, not in the least. It does that. I just stared at my friend's hand until it was my hand because it's fucking fat is the most fascinating thing you've ever seen in your life. Yeah, it's crazy. But that I did it one time and I was like, I'm never doing that again. No, it's you should. It's just chemicals. Don't do it. It's not good. Anyway, he also was sure that his blood was turning to powder. So he had a lot of medical issues that he was going to bring into the doctors a lot of the time. The doctors pretty sure that he was because that's actually the age in men like late teens is when the signs of schizophrenia start showing. So he was kind of going through that his he ended up he was started accusing his mom of poisoning

him. And so his father got him an apartment and moved him out of the house. Basically said, you can't be here alone. Yeah, do whatever you want. Yeah, exactly. So even so he was alone. And it turned out he gave himself blood poisoning because and this is where things are going to become a serious bummer. So let's do it. He was injecting himself with rabbit blood. He was injecting rabbit blood into his own veins. This was he was these are all ways he thought he was going to help his powdery blood or his his skull bones moving around or whatever the fuck thing he thought was wrong with him. So he was they don't know how if he was buying rabbits or catching them or whatever. But he was drinking rabbit blood, mutilating rabbits, and then he

started injecting blood and do so he involuntarily was committed to psychiatric hospital. And I want to go to psychiatric high school. Everyone just keeps asking you how you are all the time. Now, here's the weird thing though. Not that there are very many psychiatric hospitals around anymore. But at this place, the staff was scared of him. That's how fucking freaky this guy was. And at one point, they told a story of the nurse going into his room and there was blood all over his face. And she was like, what's going on? And he said, Oh, no, no, I just cut myself. But it turned out they found some dead birds on the outside his window. He had been catching birds and drinking their blood. The scary fuck. Yeah. So they started calling him Dracula. And they were

all freaked out. Well, the doctors legit had like, power. No, thanks. You know, he was list at mine melt. He's list stat. I feel like you'd hold out for human blood, wouldn't you? Bird blood. You get whatever you can get bird blood, though. I mean, it's pure, man. They're so dirty. So they get him on they start to they balance him out on psychotropic drugs, right? And they finally after a year are like, you're free, you're not going to be a danger to yourself or others. See you later. And they release him from the hospital. His mother, they upon his parents, I think the word they use in the article is recognizance. I don't think that's the correct word, but it's basically under their supervision. His mother immediately wins him off the medicine. She does

because she's smart lady. So she gets him off the medicine, gets him his own apartment again. Now, this time he has the woman, she's the person who abused him. Yes, begin with. Yeah, she's not smart. She's probably a bit crazy yourself. She cares a little about his well being. Yeah, she's probably just wants him to get away from her. And this was also the person that was like, did I say that part already where he was accusing her of poisoning him? Right. So he's just like, she knows she's in danger. Yeah. The idea of her weaning him off the medicine though, God knows what that was about. But I can, I can kind of imagine and it's idiotic. It's frightening. So he's out on his own again. So he ends up being sharing an apartment

with three roommates. And he is so fucking weird that they demand he moves out. Apparently he was drunk, high and on acid all the time. He do would do stuff like nail himself into his own room and accuse them of like trying to get into his room and invade him and all this stuff. So finally there and he also was always naked or just walk through the room naked. So no, no one can have anybody over. Yeah. So finally they're like, you have to move out and he refused. So everybody else moved out. That's how creepy it was. Okay. So he's in this house by himself. And that's when he went into full vampire mode. So he started, they don't know buying, catching whatever, but he was constantly getting animals mutilating them drinking their blood. He had

a thing he would do where he'd put the animal blood in a blender with some coke and blend it up and drink it. Soda? Like Coke soda? Yes. Coca-Cola. Yeah. Like a little smoothie. Um, pre-jamba juice. This was late 70s. So otherwise he would have been fine. He would have been a millionaire. And so these were all the ways he, um, he thought it was going to keep his heart from shrinking, which was his main fear at this point. I mean, to be honest, blood is good for you. Like eating blood is you get a lot of iron. Iron. Yeah. If you have iron poor blood, but it's not going to help your craniol bones from moving out of the back of your head. You're a pregnant woman. Fine. If you're a psychopathic fucking. And, and if you are a pregnant woman,

you feel like you might have iron poor blood. Instead of mutilating a rabbit, you can just have a Guinness. Drink one Guinness and you're done. It's permanent iron, chew an iron tablet. Yeah. You could do that too. Don't drink iron. A bunch of shirts. Go on. I've never heard of this one. So I'm passing it on. Oh, okay. So, um, da, da, da. So basically he's, he, sorry, I'm out of order. So he's, so the killings begin on December 29th, 1977. And right the month before the killing start, he has found, uh, there's a place called pyramid lake that's kind of by Lake Tahoe. And it's this weird kind of salty lake and it has these weird rock formations that are pyramid shaped. And, um, apparently this guy drives out there

and there's just Richard Chase standing out there naked covered in blood. And they're like, what the fuck? So they call the sheriff or whoever and they find Richard's truck has a bucket of blood in it and the whole inside is covered in blood. So they arrest him, but then they test the blood and they find out it's just cows blood. So they let him go. Goodbye. No charges or no charges. Cause apparently that's you're allowed to just cover yourself in cow blood. If you so choose, all that's fine. Yeah. And just be standing. Imagine if you were like, let's go out to pyramid lake and take some pictures. What a gorgeous day. And you get out there and that fucking apparently he was like 511 and weighed 145 pounds. Oh, so he's like emaciated and

he's a ghoul. He looks like a ghoul or what if I was like, Karen, do you want to go into the pyramid link and put our cow blood all over ourselves? And I'd be like, yeah, and then we'd be like, oh my God, Richard, what are you doing here? I knew it was meant to be. So, so a month later, he, uh, was basically walking around and driving around his neighborhood and he's just start shooting people. So he does a drive by and ends up killing 51 year old Ambrose Griffin, who was out in his driveway. Um, he was helping his wife bring groceries into the house. She thought he dropped and she thought he had a massive heart attack because it was such a strange thing. Um, and then she only found out when he got to the hospital and was pronounced

dead that he had actually been shot twice later. I know. And he, you know, later that, and he was a father of two, very sad. Later that day, a 12 year old boy riding his bike reports the police that a guy drove by in a brown trans am and shot at him and missed. Jesus. So he's, he's wilding. He's Richard is doing some crazy shit. He's wilding. Uh, okay. So you won't get professionalism like this in any other podcast. That's right. Where we're just like, whoa. Oh my God. Okay. So then, uh, January 23rd, about a month later, this one's rough. It's a bummer. So this is where it turned for me where I was like, look how weird this guy is with eating rabbits and drinking their blood. Right.

But that of course just was the beginning for him to go on and do that to people. So if you didn't like the rabbit part, you're really not going to like this part. Um, everyone like the rabbit part doesn't love a good rabbit killing. Um, so he, and this is, this is the part that's a super bummer. What he would do is just walk around a neighborhood and try doors. So yeah. And he told the, um, the FBI agent who interviewed him after he was arrested from jail that he would walk around and then if a door was locked, he interpreted that as that he was not welcome and he would move along. But then if he would get to a door that was open, he would go into the house and just see what would happen. So there's a story of him is he on this same day

was trying doors and he walked up a woman tells a story of seeing this young man who looked super crazy and creepy walk up and try her back patio door and it's locked and she's watching him do it. He walks over to the window and tries it. It's locked. And then he walks to her front door and she walks up to the front door like, what the fuck are you doing? He just stares at her and then walks away. That is the, if I saw someone trying my back door and my window, you shoulda breath. I would scream. Yeah. That's terrifying. It's horrifying. So then he went on his way. I'm, I think I'm pretty sure she called the cops because obviously she told that story. Yeah. But he went on and the next house he found the front door was open. Oh no lock your doors guys.

Yeah, always. So he goes in and a pregnant 22 year old woman named Teresa Wallen. Teresa, run. Her body was found disemboweled, drained of blood and there was a yogurt cup sitting next to it that had been filled as if he was drinking out of it. And she was raped and mutilated and her organs had been taken out of her body. What a sick fuck. Yeah. It was super crazy like Jack the Ripper style insanity. Wow. And the worst part is that her husband came home from work and their dog was on the front porch and the lights were out, but the stereo was on. So he goes in like what the hell's going on and he think, oh it didn't say. Oh, probably the doors. That's what I'm picturing. Something hideous.

He thinks there's oil in the front room. Like he doesn't understand what's happening and then he finds his wife's body. It's horrifying. How the fuck is he for the rest of his fucking life? It's over. It's over. It reminds me. It makes me think of like the end of the Zodiac. Remember the movie and the Zodiac when they interview the guy in the airport who had been in the car with the girl who got shot? Yeah. That actor is a great actor. His name's Jimmy. I can't remember his last name, but he, you know, the girl from, um, view, uh, Heavenly Creatures who was, it was Kate Winslet and then, um, the girl with the brown hair. I'd heard that he was someone before. So that makes that reminds me that I can't remember. He's a great actor and he was on all of this is meaningless.

I can't, I can't say the right names. Um, and before the cops later found that he had put a bullet in her mailbox as he was walking up to that door. That was significant to him. Yeah. Somehow. In his crazy fucking, I mean, the, the idea of seeing that gore and guts and blood and not being, and being effect, being not affected enough to stick around and keep doing it. Yeah. There's kind of some crazy like dissociative shit going on. Yeah. He's out. He's gone, gone, gone. Like most people see someone get cut and see blood and are like, I can't deal with this or like a broken bone or like, I can't deal with most of us. Yes. Can't handle it, but he's not even, it's like that thing of like, you know, sociopaths don't have like consciences, but he's

psychotic. Like this is, he's not there. Yeah. Um, so, uh, he leaves that house and apparently he had gone into another house. The cops find out later. He'd gone into another house and, um, had, had gone in because the door was open and had ransacked it and peed into a drawer of freshly laundered baby clothes and then defecated on the little boy's bed, on their child's bed. They walk in, he runs out the back door, the husband chases him and he can't catch up to them. So that was just like a fucking near miss that they weren't in the house. They were just coming home. Yeah. Thank God no one was there. Um, and same day as he did that murder. So he was just, he was just walking around doing, doing what he wanted and doing that. He wasn't even aware of

that he needed to go hide. Right. You know what I mean? Right. Exactly. No, no, no, not at all. Like he knew once the guy was chasing him, but no, he didn't, he was walking around with like bloody clothes and didn't try to hide it. That's not mentally competent to stand trial if I ever heard it. Yeah. No, he's, he's out of his mind. He was totally fried. So once this, this murder and this horrible scene is found, they call the FBI in and the FBI makes a profile and it's like young, unemployed, mentally ill. And it's like they undernourished, like they had him. Has been, it has been in lockup before, like they know specific shit. Yes. The way that the way the FBI does. Um, so then the next murder is 36 year old and this one's rough Evelyn Maroff

and her six year old son and his friend Daniel. And now the good news is that that in my mind, they were all shot. So he, he didn't torture them or make them suffer. But I'm, you know, I see what you're saying. I totally see what you're saying. I mean, as compared to some hideous ones that we talk about. I know. How many times have I said Oive and Jesus this whole, like I can't stop saying that because this is hideous, but it's basically he, uh, she was, she was upstairs taking a bath while her friend Daniel, who was 51, was in the house like watching the kids while she was up there. He shoots that guy. He goes upstairs and shoots her in the bathtub, mutilates her, rapes her body, eviscerates her, does weird

shit with her in trails, all that creepy stuff. Um, then he, the little kids each just got shot in the head. And then there was a baby that when the cops got there, it, they found a pillow with a bullet hole through it. The, the playpen had blood in it and the baby was missing. So yeah. So now the cops and FBI and everybody are like, this is, we've got like a serious serial kill. I mean, obviously they already knew that, but this one was, it was, I mean, the, you can go online and read the details, but the details are just a bummer. And it's just more of what I'm saying. It's awful. It's really awful. Um, but here's what I kind of find fascinating. And this is when, I think this is the part I freaked myself out on is, so they get a call, the cops get a call from

a girl, we'll find her name here. It's her name is Nancy Holden. And Nancy Holden tells the cops on the same day as all this other shit happened, she was in the town and country shopping center, which I know where it is in Sacramento, off Watt Avenue. It's this area and it's like, Sacramento is just this big, I said it before, but it's just like this big wide spread out. It's like all these suburbs smashed together shopping centers and shopping centers and shell stations and Taco Bells. That's all I remember. So culture everywhere. It just cultures far as I can see. It's like New York, but flat. Um, so they're in the town and country shopping center, which is one of those full on seventies, like a shopping center that looks kind of adobe-ish

and there's a lot of, yes, like what there's a lot of Irvine, like in Orange County, that's, you know, arch, archway, walkway type of thing. Yeah. All the signs for the stores have the same, right? It's like wood cut signs with like, there were like dark wood and white paint. Yes. Oh, my Irvine. That's, that's town and country shopping. So this girl, Nancy Holden is in a store and this freaky guy walks up to her and says, were you on the motorcycle when Kurt was killed? And 10 years before her boyfriend, Kurt was killed in a motorcycle accident in high school. And so she's looking at this person and she goes, who are you? And he's like, it's me, Rick Chase. And then she's like, she remembers Richard Chase from high school as being this like

studious, cute guy. And now she's looking at this fucking, again, ghoul. And he has, he's wearing a sweatshirt with blood on the front of it. And I think, I think barefoot is what she said. But apparently he's trying to talk to her and she's just standing there like getting the worst vibes from this guy. So at one point he turns around and buys something and she just gets the fuck out of the store. Good for her. He follows her out because he wants to get a ride from her and he's trying, still trying to talk to her. She gets in her car, locks the door and drives away like peels out. This girl's smart. She's super fucking smart. And then she calls the cops and says, here's the experience I just had, the guy's names Richard Chase. And that's what leads

the cops to his apartment. When the cops get to his apartment, they stake it out for a little while, they go up and knock, they know they can tell he's in there, he won't come out. So they just go back and sit in their car and watch. Finally after hours, he comes out holding a box. He's got that same bloody sweatshirt on. He's got no shoes on bloody feet. The babies in the box. They arrest him. No, there's weird random shit. And I think the gun was in the box. But they go into this apartment and it is covered in blood, the walls, the ceiling, it's putrid. Like the smell was apparently horrible. He's got three blenders going like not going but three blenders with all of his crazy shit on on the counter. And they said it was just it was a horror show inside inside the

refrigerator. There's body parts. It's like Dahmer style pre Dahmer Dahmer. What a sick fuck crazed. And it was basically this person who's in full psychosis left alone to just go just go as crazy as he needs to go. Schizophrenia doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go fucking murder. No, it doesn't. No, I don't mean necessary. It doesn't mean that's going to happen that this person that was his predilection is to fucking go after it. This is like the you know, the perfect storm of an abusive childhood paranoid schizophrenia, untreated drug use worse. It's he he went down the worst possible road and then drove himself 20 times further down that road. Did they did they find that he had killed anyone before this murder spree? Or was this it? No, but there were stories

of him like walking through people's backyards. There were lots of the creepy story of I saw that guy he tried my door or just somebody like there was one of just him standing in someone's backyard lighting a cigarette like the creepy creepy factor is all in there. So of course he goes he goes to trial and ultimately he get I didn't I didn't really write down the details because I just started getting so bummed out about this. It doesn't matter that you're talking about the murders. It's yeah right and but here's what I like that FBI the FBI agent that created the the profile of him went afterwards and interviewed him at San Quentin love this and he explained that it wasn't his fault because Nazis and UFOs were trying to kill him and he needed to kill

and he needed to drink the blood and he needed to eat the organs and do all this stuff to stay alive himself. He's so mentally ill and then in one of the articles I read there was two different kind of versions of the story but I love this version then after explaining all of this which is just batshit psycho bullshit. He reaches into his pockets and pulls out a whole bunch of macaron and cheese and gives it to the FBI agent and goes they're trying to poison me I need you to go test this. Oh my god. And so apparently the story at jail was that the guards and everybody said that all the other inmates were so freaked out by him that they were constantly telling him to kill himself and so in 1980 he had stockpiled all the antidepressants he was supposed to be taking

and he just took them all one night and killed himself. Fair enough ma'am. Yeah I appreciate that he did that but most important question was the macaroni and cheese spiked. It was totally poisoned by alien Nazi blood and a little rabbit. I hate macaroni and cheese today do you think that it was shit. Be careful how do you feel crazy. No like I love macaroni and cheese. I love Nancy Holden. She is the key element in the town and country shopping center. She's the one yeah I know we had the Woodbridge Woodbridge Village shopping center. It's a bad one. Karen how are we gonna how are we gonna rid you of this. I feel like you need like a like a palette cleanser. I feel like I should start drinking again tonight after 25 years. I don't you think that's the key.

Yeah but not on my watch man. Yeah just watch me drink four beers. No it's literally on my watch because I'm watching. I demand that you watch me drink 29 beers because I can do it. I just want to prove to you I can do it. And then you turn into him and that's the night. Also and I'm sure everybody's seen it but the pictures of him there's part of me and this is the sick part of me where you look at pictures of him and go he could have been so cute. It's kind of like Nancy Holden being like this guy he was cute in high school. He was a kitty. And now he's super scary. Yeah but it's kind of sexy. I mean blood on the ceiling blood on the walls. Blood on the ceiling blood on the walls. There's a song here. Oh hey okay I thought of something we're gonna do we're

gonna start doing live shows. Yes every month. Can you do the theme song live every time we do a live show. You know it's funny. I think I can but I made that up just in the excitement of you and me recording that first podcast. I went home and just like started playing that. I would have to really take some time to figure out what I was playing. How about it can be different. You can just fucking freelance and do whatever the fuck you want every time. Okay that's awful. It's pretty terrible. It's not charming like finding a woman dead the skeleton and a witch out. It is not and I apologize for that. No I feel so bad for you. I've been wanting to talk about him for so long and then once I got into it I was like oh that's right I don't like this at all. I didn't

know that one. I was gonna do uh is it Richard Fish. Albert. Albert Fish. Yes that guy is Google his photo. Here's okay can I tell you this I was one of the articles or it was like a Reddit page where someone was talking about Richard Chase and then someone else got in there goes I mean he's alright but he's not as weird as Albert Fish. He is no Albert Fish. And somebody else goes yeah I think when you when you kill people because you think your blood's turning to powder it's pretty fucking weird. No I think he's it's almost like is he worse because he he didn't have a choice it feels like or is it you know like Albert Fish chose and and took pleasure and enjoyed killing people and knew what he was doing and knew what he was doing and manipulated people. Yes like and tortured

people afterwards. Right. Yeah follow-up letters. It was manipulated and so but but the vampire it's almost like you know it was one day of murder. Couple days. Couple days of murder. The one big one. Yes. Right you were saying it was like a month that he. But yeah you're right like Richard Chase is the example of if this happened in the 1500s they'd be like it's the devil. Totally. Yeah. They yes you're right. Because he would have the crazy eyes and the way Nancy Holden described him was like super creepy. You know. Yeah. And also can you just imagine somebody walking up to you were like hey did you do and blood on the sweatshirt. Like I used to work in those in a shop and basically that shopping center and the thought of

and alone all the time. And you think you're safe because you're at work and then some fucking dude who was like a hot senior when you were in high school comes in with blood. Who's rabbit blood ravaged. Yeah just don't let those you know what let the hair on the back of your neck dictate what you do not polite mess. Yeah I agree that woman was not polite and she didn't stick around because her job depended on it. She got the fuck out of there. Yeah she didn't she didn't give him a ride because she was trying to be nice and didn't want him to be mad and all that weird bullshit people do. She just was like a bye. Bye. Goodbye Richard. Tell us your favorite weird murder at our Facebook page. My favorite murder group. And if you know other

details like anything the yeah about that we want to hear him or anything. You can email us at my favorite murder at Gmail and you can we're at my fave murder on Twitter. Yes. Should we read. I think I think we should. Well we're doing mini episodes now. Oh yeah yeah that's right. So let's because we get so many emails and we want everybody to have their story be heard. Yeah you guys deserve it a lot. I think we're good time wise. Oh okay. Let's do a mini episode and but first silkwood shower. Say what do you silkwood shower because my lord that was it was raw. Let's end let's this is another episode that needs to be and ended on a positive note. Yeah good idea Elvis. I wish you could see Georgia walking around her apartment like share with the

do you want a cookie. That's a yes. That's a yes. Do you guys want a cookie. Yeah you do. Be our friend. Yay. Thanks for listening. Okay bye.