My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 162 - Prom Queen City

Episode Date: February 28, 2019

Karen and Georgia cover murderer Mark "Gator" Rogowski and the murder of Jane Bashara.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. This week's episode, we'll focus mostly on the positive. Why, really? What? You didn't tell me that was the rule. We did not have a meeting about this beforehand. I hate it. I think it's the worst. We're off to a great start. Here we go. That's Karen Kilkera. That's Georgia Hartstark. The positiivist, positive person in Positville. I am the positiivist and always have been. I'm a positive activist. Oh, a pactivist?

A positivist. A positivist. Yes. What do you do? Do you mostly march or...? I take a nap because there's no way to be positive when you're conscious. So you just... Right. Right. Conscience. Conscious. Conscious. So my conscience goes right down. Escapes from this hideous reality. And then it's just neutral, Bill. Nice. That's great. How are you? I like to make signs. Like sign language or like gang signs? No. Just, you know, I glue a piece of paper on a piece of wood and then it'll say a positive activism. I bet it's... Is it a funny pun? You know,

I love puns. So usually I will go with a pun first. Good. So it's like eggs... Excuse me. Right. What, like, eggs? Always egg-based pun. Don't touch my... Uh, yeah. Lego my egg. Lego my egg. That would actually be funny. For like a Planned Parenthood. Pro-Pan Planned Parenthood. But the waffles are breast-shaped and featured. I love it. Sunny-side-up eggs on it. Yeah. Oh my god. Lego my eggs. Oh. Oh, no. Lego my... Oh, no. Is it 2019? And we still don't have rights. What? Is it 2019 and we still don't know how to intro podcasts? I feel, personally, like now I resist logic when we do this. I resist ever having it be clean and clear. I want to drive new listeners

away. This isn't the podcast, uh, the dropout. Intro. This isn't the dropout. This isn't NPR. This isn't fucking the podcast of news time. Yeah, because, and you know why, it's because you don't hear light typing in the background, which is how you know you're on NPR. We have no music budget. No. We have no journalism skills to speak of. I feel like Stephen would be happy to bust out that keyboard and play some more of his electronica. Some tones in the background. Yeah. His, uh, what is it called, Thrash Garage? What's Stephen's brand of music? It's Mustache Thrash. Must. Must. Thrash. No. That sounds like a, that sounds like a mold problem, a bacteria problem. It is. Mustache Thrash. Oh, have you heard about Stephen's thrash? I'm coming to work. Head to toe thrash.

But it's heaviest on his mustache. It turned his mustache red. Um, guys, we're back in the studio. Yeah, that's right. We're in the midst of our fucking insane winter fall tour. We're having so much fun. Oh, it's the fucking best. I think our next one is in Vegas. Yes. Which is really exciting. Marty is going to be there for some reason. My dad wants to come. My sister, Nadine, are coming. Oh, like, I think everybody wants to come. Sure, it's Vegas. It's fucking Vegas, baby. Buffalo. Everyone's going to be playing those buffalo machines. Georgia's already talked about what buffalo machine she would like to have reserved for her. Double down. Can you do that? Double down on a machine. I'm doing it. I'm going to be the one who sits between

two machines and I'm playing both of them. Feed it. Give your money away. Chain smoking. Just make sure you always feel lucky. Let's see, what, what is my game? Wheel of Fortune? No. Best. Willy Wonka. That's my game. Okay. I like Wheel of Fortune, too. Anything that you can win a spin on a game thing? Yes. Great. And it's anything where you, it feels like you're actually interplaying with the machine, even though that thing's spinning and whatever comes up is going to come up. You don't know where it's going to stop. Yes, you do. And you're like, bing, bing, bing. Yeah, you're stupid. Yeah. Get rid of all your money. Give us your money. That's why you, yeah. It's going to be fine, everyone. Yeah. Ultimately, and later on,

it's going to be fine. Sure. You're going to learn a lesson. Oh, in the meantime, gamble your money away. Get drunk and gamble. Get as many free drinks as you can on the floor. Marty, what's Marty going to do in Vegas? Oh, I don't know. Maybe camp outside. Oh, I took a 320s out of the bank and I will, he'll use them throughout the night. He's going to camp in the garage. There's a nice bathroom where you can take a shower. Does Marty smoke a cigar like it's celebratory? Does he drink? How does Marty party? You know, a drink once in a while. Oh, we did. So the night before, we left for this last weekend tour and he was going to stay the weekend and watch the cats. So he came over the night before because dads can't drive at certain hours. Right. That's right. That yeah.

So he was supposed to, you know, we were leaving at night blind. He's blind. No, he just, he's color blind. Okay. He's just, they just, he's very OCD like literally and what's figuratively literally. Yeah. And so whatever, he just came over early and we got drunk together. Oh, nice. That's the end of the story. We just drank a bunch of rosé and yelled about Israel and watched a Vietnam documentary by Ken Burns, which I highly recommend. We just haven't kept, keep pausing it to yell about shit and then we'd watch it again. Yeah. And Vince was just watching us being like, oh no, what did I marry into? That was great. So that's how Marty Partey is a documentary. A little vino. So nice rosé. Yeah. I like it. That's right. Oh, I have a correction. Good. Let's

hear it. That's more of a, yeah, it's a correction from a couple of weeks ago. I just want to make everyone know that the to-da list that I talked about, instead of making a to-do list or including a to-do list, you should make a to-da list of positive things that have, you know, just so you have it, not just like things I need to do, but like things I fucking accomplished. Sure. An accomplishment list. Yeah, like an angry accomplishment list. Yeah, a fuck you accomplishment list. A fuck you to your to-do list. Yeah. This is essentially what it is. Always. And I wanted to say that it was created by Gretchen Rubin, who's this incredible author. She wrote The Happiness Project. We all part of it. And The Four Tendencies. Lizzie Cooberman loves her. She also has a podcast

called Happier, which I now need to listen to. But that was her idea and I couldn't, I maybe said it was Gail. But it wasn't. Gail from Gail and Oprah? Yeah. Oh. But it wasn't. Maybe it was. Good. Oh, you're just sourcing. Yeah, I just want to make sure that I give her credit. So that's who that, the to-da list. The to-da list was written by Gretchen Rubin. Rubin. Yes. Awesome. Thank you, Gretchen. Thank you, Gretchen, for your great ideas. Yeah. Because that is a really smart way to fit that around. Because it is like, I have so many to-do lists around my house. Yeah. And I never do any of the things on them. And then I get, then I, when I do do things on them, I, then I'm like, oh, I'm not crossing that off. Yeah. Like it's not all the way. Yeah. I'll do like,

I'll have a shitty thing that's like, make an appointment and then go get this thing. And it's like, well, I made the appointment. Yeah. I don't really want to go get the thing. It all gets really depressing. Oh, why is life hard? So instead of that negative being a, a ten, attenuated. Yes. I don't even know what that word means. Here we go. Stephen, could you please look up what attenuated mean? You just made it up, I think. I don't know. But instead of being acclimated, that's probably not it either. There it is, too. Start with an A and be really aligned. Aligned with negativity. Dossile or. Or just being negative. Oh, it does mean something. Attenuated. Having been reduced in force, effect or value. In a sentence, it appears likely that

the courts will be given an attenuated role. That's right. To enforce one of these decisions. It's totally incorrect. It's correct. It's not. Oh, are you trying to be positive? I disagree. I was going to say Corrections Corner and heard from a lot of Scots about this one. I, in talking about headbutts. Guys named Scott? Or just texting, you know? Luckily, no. Just Scottish people letting, letting me know that my little riff, because I couldn't think of the real nickname for headbutts. So I called it a Belfast Good Morning. And, and just acted like that was the real name. But it actually, what I was really thinking of and what everyone knew I was thinking of without me knowing it was, it's called a Glasgow kiss. Oh, what's a Belfast Good

Morning? I made it up. Okay. Cause that's great. Because I didn't know what the fuck you were talking about. Thought you made it up and it's like, that was beautiful and incredible. Totally made up. Okay. All right. But I mean, I knew it was, I knew it was called something like that. That's, I like, listen, sorry, Scottish people and people named Scott. I like yours better. Careful, careful. They will fucking headbutt you so quickly. Okay. So my favorite thing when I, I lived in Scotland for a short amount of time, when I was on the television show, the book group, and my friend, Michelle Gomez, who is from Glasgow, told me all about the kind of culture there. And one of my favorite things was when,

on the weekends, when people go out, oftentimes women don't wear coats, even though it's freezing fucking cold and they're wearing like a tube dress, because they want to seem hard. They want to seem tough. So you don't wear a coat. Okay. And that like is such a great example of what Scottish people are like. What if I want to seem soft and tender and I wear six coats? You'll be beaten within an inch of your life in Glasgow Scotland. By a 12 year old girl. It's just my favorite because people party really hard there. And they also were just like, and then you walk home in the cold and you like keep on partying, like you never, you never quit. So it's like your 20s all the time there. Yeah. Well, I think mostly when you're in your 20s though. Okay, great. It wasn't like,

the old people weren't really doing. Okay. It wasn't like a lady in a tube, a lady in a tube talk. No, it was all the youngs. I want to give a shout out to the new animated MFM episode. It's MFM underscore animated on Instagram by Nick Terry. Yeah. And it's on YouTube as well. He made a animation of the 400 year old sharp conversation that we had that is just so clever. I want to punch people in the neck. Do you want to punch Nick? I want to punch people named Scott. Bring him back. I want to punch Scott's. My friend Patty Riley texted me the other day because she had the Nick Terry shirt. And she said that she walking down the street. She said when her arm was in a sling, no one ever said a word to her, but walking down the

street with the Nick Terry sweatshirt, people constantly stopping her and saying, Oh my God, are you a murderer? No one recognizing it. What I love about him is that he, so he's now selling merch with his characters from our conversations on it. And he messaged me. That he has put into the conversations. But he messaged me and was like, Hey, I just want to make sure this is okay. Like this, you know, it is still your thing. And I just want your blessing. And if you're not okay with it, that's fine. Whatever the fuck. And I was like, make that fucking money. God bless. It's like, that's how you do it. And we're like so happy for you. I should have said no and bought all the rights to it. But that's just me being a

merchandiser. A little aggressive, a little hard stark. Yeah, that would have ruined the fun, I think. But I'm so happy for him. And I know how much he's just doing such good work. I mean, incredible. He nails it every single time. But I can't tell if that's because I'm in it. And so I just love it. Of course it is. Also another person who's nailed it lately. Truly my favorite is Taft in the bathtub. Oh, yeah. Someone named Adrian Kelt, I think, CELT retweeted it. And it was their drawing of Taft in the bathtub. President Taft in the bathtub from the Lincoln story you did in Washington DC. I mean, I've no, that's the also the funniest thing is these things come up and you're like, when did I fucking say that? When did we say it? Remember when you

said this? No. Yeah. But apparently what I said was ooh Taft. Yeah. And then it was Taft. It's a beautiful art piece. Yes. Also, when we were in Toronto, you say Toronto or Toronto? I say Toronto. Toronto I think is correct. Okay. Well, so this gal came through the line with these perfectly packaged for the meet and greet. These like packages wrapped in brown paper and fucking string and it was like adorable. Oh, yes. And she's like, I made you guys dresses. I'm a designer. And we looked open them later and they're gorgeous. And so last night I went to a fucking fancy Hollywood movie and I wore it. Her name's Sarah Duke and it fit me so perfectly. I felt like a ballerina from the waist down and then it was like slit in the back. So my whole

back was showing all sexy. You could turn it around but I have no cleavage. So what's the point? It was just this gorgeous fucking dress that fit me perfectly and like I just want to buy everything from her. So her name on Instagram is Sarah and it's S-A-R-A-N-O-H Sarah Sarah Duke. And she's a Canadian fucking clothing designer and she's incredible. Yeah, that's so awesome. I like it's the perfect fit. Everything about it. I love. And she really did. Go ahead. Sorry. No, no. It has pockets. Both our dresses have pockets. She made sure to tell us that. I apologize. No, no. I was only going back over your thing because the packages were wrapped. Gorgeous. It looked like it was from Victorian England. Yeah. Like it was black wrapping paper and

then there was gold and then there was like little threads. See, I remember at a speed. Is it brown wrapping paper with black? I could be a hundred percent wrong. Well, the color, the color combo is black and brown. Very intense. Listen, those nights. Don't worry. Listen, look, don't. Look. There's a, I have a photo of my, not to fucking, I have a photo of myself up on my Instagram of me wearing it. Oh, good. Because it's a red carpet and I get, it's terrifying. And so I didn't put my hands in the pockets, which I totally did in front of the mirror. That's what happens. You don't know where to put your hands. That's why we have pockets. That's right. And, which I will then mention, God bless Broad Church's Olivia

Coleman, who won Best Actress at the Oscars. Her dress had pockets. Amazing. And that was tweeted to us. That Michelin web look. Is that the show called? No, it's peep show was what she was on, but same guys. Peep show. She was on peep show. She's so good in it. It's so fun to see her win a shit. She's awesome. Because also she has been consistently killing it in England for like 20 years. And she's been on a ton of great shit. I first got to know her on look around you, which is one of my favorite things that's ever existed. I don't know it. You have to watch it. It's like a fake seventies in studio, like, um, PBS type of show. Amazing. But, but it's, everything's fake. So there's one where she introduces a thing that's a computer for women

called the Betty Cotify. Sorry. It's a pink and white laptop. It's a ladies computer. And then there's when they show like the keyboard, there's a nail file on the keyboard. You have to see the show. It's what's it called again? It's called look around you. Okay, maybe we can find it on YouTube. Uh, I'm not sure the first season is all, um, it's like seventies, uh, tapes that they would put in at school and the teacher needed to go like smoke smoke in the alley, basically. But then the second season is this in studio where they have, um, uh, Robert Popper and Olivia Coleman and, uh, Peter Serafinowitz and they all host it. But it's, and it's taken very seriously, but everything is like, like the Betty Cotify. I love it. It's amazing. But we're, I'm so proud

of Olivia Coleman. I'm so, and it's the favorite is girl. And she has pockets in her dress and she's just represented. Okay. But more so, not more so, but closer to home and in addition to and as well as Scott, stop fucking trying to put words at our mouth. Don't actually me right now. Yeah. I'll say what this is. Don't Scott's blame me is, um, our, uh, friend of the, uh, podcast friend of the network, friend of the universe that we live in. Billy Jensen has his book coming out. Hell yeah. So you can pre-order it today. The book is called chase darkness with me. I wrote the foreword. Yeah. Yeah. It's about four paragraphs long. Um, but it is, I've read the book and it's, what's it about?

All right. Which one's it about? What's it about? It's basically about everything he's done. Like how into true crime is in life. Yes. And where, how you got to start and what it's from. And then also then these cases that he has come up against and it's just, it gives you everything that a murderer would want in a book. It's really, really bad. I mean, I still, I still, and I must have listened to it 12 times through, listen to all the gum in the dark while falling asleep at night, which is so twisted and fucked up, but that's just like the most comforting thing to me. Yes. And which he helped write or helped finish. That's right. Billy Jensen, um, basically came in after Michelle McNamara died and helped Patton, um, finish her book using all of her notes and all of

her writing. Along with. Along with Paul Haines. Right. Um, maybe it was her researcher. So yeah, it's, uh, it's now this is his book and please go, uh, get it. You will be so happy that you did. I'm so excited. He looks, he looks like a goth fucking anime character. I don't, that's nothing to do with anything, but it just make it helps. You know what's funny in the foreword, I mentioned the first time we met him when he came up to us at, um, that restaurant next to the UCB on Franklin. Oh yeah. And he came up like just talking already. He was like, we're friends and here we go. Here we go. But with this journalist intensity where I was like, he's mad. Like we did something wrong. And I was so nervous to, to like, when he started talking, because I was like, I don't know whatever

date or time you're about to mention. Yeah. I don't know what the correct one is. We don't, we don't know facts. Yeah, no, that's your area. You get the facts right. We treat your facts like gossip and talk about it. Um, we have to give it, speaking of gossip and talking about it, we have to give a quick shout out, not have to, but want to, because simply safe, which we do ads for all the time and everything. This is not like an overt ad. This is us thanking them because we have this brand new office. We're going to be recording here all the time. We're going to make it our fucking podcast home and a lot of other podcasts that we're eventually going to announce on our network. Exactly right. And simply say fucking sent us a whole bundle

of everything for fucking free just to, to, of security shit for the office. Yeah. So we have a security system now for our office because of simply safe. So we want to thank them and thank them for being, um, like with our show for so long. They've been advertising on the show for a long time. I mean, honestly, like those, those, those ones that you've been hearing forever on those ads for podcasts, I kind of like love them because like nobody fucking knows and no one believes in podcasts except for these fucking companies that have been advertising with them for so long. Thank you, Casper. Thank you. Uh, you know what I will say, and I don't know, this is really funny because I was really touched. I opened a box at my house the other day and I

got a new quip toothbrush because remember I said I left my quip toothbrush in DC and I was like, so touched, like they heard it and they sent it. But then I remembered you're on automatic renewal for those things. Nobody listened. Nobody cares. It's either, it's either, and this is how it always goes with me, either quip is in love with me or quips doesn't give a shit. But I'm going to choose because it's the positivity train. Yeah. I'm going to choose that quip loves me. This episode is all about positive sharding. Sharding? What'd you say? Nothing. I just didn't want to say thinking. I refuse. Okay. Because there's no power behind it. It's, this isn't the secret. Just do, don't be a dick and do good things. Yeah, that's right. And listen. There's, there's no secret.

There is no secret. Just don't be a fucking asshole. Yeah. Whereas my hilarious comedian, Bill Dwyer used to say, if it feels wrong, don't do it. It's that simple. If you'd be mad, that someone else did it to you. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. It's very simple. Now, here's what you can do. Okay. Mackenzie sent us a picture of her grandpa sleeping in his onion field that I retweeted it. She had tweeted it and then she was on our Instagram. It's on our Instagram. My favorite murder. I think it went, it went across all social media. I got tagged in that more than I've been tagged in anything. And thank you. I love it. It's the best. It's the best. And the second picture of her grandpa laying in the field is high art. I want someone to paint

that. It is a gorgeous thing. Yeah. And it's an old man sleeping in his own. It's amazing. It's his own onion field. As a champion napper, I still can't wrap my head around how he did that. Why you pick a place to lay down and go to sleep it. I can tell you, as a farm person, I'll call myself a farm girl. He got shitfaced and passed out. Could be that. That's always possible. But also when you're kind of out in the middle of anywhere and you have something to do and you're going to be doing it all day long, it's like repetitive work. And you, you realize you can just kind of do whatever you want. No one's out there with you. You don't have to, you're not under the lash of society. The concept is foreign to me. It's, and the earth is very warm when you

lay on it often. As someone from literally from Southern California, except for a three-year stint in San Francisco, open space and not being near people is, I don't even get it. I know. So congratulations. That's when we have, we have to go to like Montana. We have to go to like a horse. Don't promise that. Let's go to therapy horse ranch. That'd be fun. Let's do it. I want to meet a horse. I know. They're the best. I want to meet an elephant. Excuse me, that sounded stupid. You were just taking that. You were taking my idea and being like, but actually, I'm rolling on animals I want to meet. We're going to meet huge animals. I just want to meet animals. I'm going to be honest and that got me really excited. I want to meet horses and elephants.

Those are my two friends. Those are two good ones. Yeah. Um, yeah, I support both of those. I, yeah, I'm good with just horses and then going home and watching TV. I want to bathe an elephant. You know, you're not supposed to ride them anymore. Don't make sense. You're not. This is our new thing. There's like elephant ours. I don't know who the fuck I am. I don't know who I am. There's like elephant sanctuaries in Thailand and should I follow them on Instagram and like the thing now is like they, you don't ride elephants. That's like, that's fucking cruel and shit. And now you just, they let you bathe them. Oh, great. And they're in the fucking water and they're like, yeah, bitch, fucking bathe me. You bathe me for once. That's right. I'm sick of spraying stuff on

you. Stomp the shit out of you. That's pretty great. Go on Instagram and find them. It's like, I love watching elephant videos. That's the best. If I could have anything in my like ideal elephant world, it would be that like Aquaman, I could breathe underwater and then just look at fish all day. Because that's my blue planet too came out. We were talking about it the other night and it's so good. And it's so amazing like to be able to watch those animals so closely. Those mother fucker aliens. They're crazed. They're fucking a like, what is even happening? If you don't believe in aliens, put your face underwater. Get out of here because I mean, no, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it won't help. I mean, I don't mean kill yourself. I mean, go look at fish.

What do you get? Would you ever get, would you ever be a fish tank person? A fish tank person? Yeah. Like a big fucking saltwater built into the wall. That one, what's that TV show where they build fish tanks? I mean, it's called fish tanks. It's called tank. I swear to God. Oh, I believe you. It's the best. I was about to say it's some terrible pun. And I was like, well, we're real quick. Right here. I would never fish tank because mine would immediately have like the green mold on the glass. This is why you hire someone to come take care of it. Just so I can look at the thing. How about a poster? What about a great,

one of those magic eye posters of three dolphins coming out of the ocean? I'm going to get you for your next birthday, an annual pass to some kind of aquarium. Great. Okay. I'll go there. Great. There's the aquarium that's, I think it's Long Beach. Long Beach has like the best one. There is a little fish there that has arms and it holds itself between rocks and it looks all like, like a punk, like it's like this mean little fish that just sits in there and I look at it for so long because it's like basically evolving. It's this next level where it's like fins are now arms. Your brain was just like goodbye. Yeah. Sometimes I do that with seals and fucking pit bulls.

Oh, yeah. It's the same creature. I think cats and seals are very similar. Huh. I think you're wrong, but I love you. But I'm being positive about it. But I love you. But what about the whiskers? Fucking, dogs have whiskers? Am I wrong? Yes. Yeah. I'm fucking right. You know I'm right. You know it. I am drinking neat, warm tequila. Yes, you are. Not on purpose, but because this office is not equipped with anything yet. We're very bare bones here. I think it's cool. It's very like a college. It feels college-y. It feels like we need to put the boys don't cry cure poster on one of these walls.

It's very bright. If any lamp companies want to sponsor us, any light bulb companies. Any forgiving lamp companies. That'd be great. And any ice cube companies. Yeah. No fluorescent lights, like middle-aged lady lighting company. Come on, come at me. And ice cubes and mixers. And mixers. Yeah. Hey, Sprite, what's up? Who's first? I think it's you, right? Who was first? I don't know, you're first. Last night of Toronto was Toronto. Yeah, Toronto. Was me? Yeah. Oh, no, no.

Was her. Okay, so first. Great, because this fucking tequila neat ain't gonna drink himself. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping, and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal, and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy Hello Fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes, and amazing desserts.

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As a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and criminal profiler, on Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton Serial Killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia, and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey, Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast, Killer Psyche Daily, in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. Did you sign that fish I was talking about? Oh, oh, you have to post him.

So it's, it was it the ax, axotol? Is that, is it that thing? There's a gift of one of those playing a keyboard. Shit, it's a keyboard fish. That's, that's, that's hilarious. Can you please send me that? Put that on Instagram. He'll put it on the Instagram tomorrow when we post our visuals. The one I'm talking about is not so salamandri. It actually looks more like a fish, but it's really got, it's got a bunch of bumps all over it. Huh. Oh, we're creepy. So creepy. It is very creepy. Can I start now? Oh, look, positivity, positivity.

Can I start now? Sure. All right. So my story is a bit, okay, this is a harsh one, but it's a bit of a corrections corner. Okay. Because at one time in our podcast life, I don't know when we said that like, date skateboarders, they don't kill people. Oh, do you remember saying that? I don't. I don't either. I bet I did. But we, not you, but one of us did. So this is the fucking correction of that. Oh, no. This is the murder of Jessica Bergston by Mark Gator-Rigowski. Mm-hmm. Uh-oh. Yeah. I know. So I got a lot of info from this fucking documentary I saw a couple years ago and was

so affected by, had no idea about any of this called Stoked, The Rise and Fall of Gator, and it's by this woman, Helen Stickler, who spent six fucking years making this documentary. Wow. And also an article called Free Fallen by Corey Johnson that was originally in the Village Voice. So to really understand the rise and fall of Gator, that's the skateboarder, I'm going to call him that now. Okay. You have to understand the skateboarding industry in the 1980s, which you and I maybe witnessed a little bit. I definitely did. California. But from a distance nervously and breathlessly. Sure. Because all the boys that skated in my town, it seemed like they didn't have parents at all. They didn't. They could do whatever they wanted.

They could. And they were so beautiful. They were gorgeous and beautiful and didn't give a shit about you. You were not part. And there were no women. It was like the girls were a side piece. Yeah. The one time I tried to learn how to skateboard in high school and I had a friend of mine try to teach me. Within two weeks, I had fallen so hard and scratched my face up that I just quit. Yeah. It just wasn't for me. No. I have hips. Okay. So skateboarding in the 1980s, and this is when Gator was at the top of his career. So skateboarding in the early 80s wasn't a popular thing. And no one was really doing it. Towards the end of the 70s, those who were skateboarding had started to skate vertical walls, like in swimming pools that had been

drained because of the 1976 California drought. And as we saw in Dogtown and Z Boys, which are also a fucking great documentary. So they were doing that instead of the usual street skating that had been going on before. And they were also skating these ramps that, you know, the ramps we know, and that's called a vert skating. Okay. For vertical skating. That's what I call it. I didn't know. Yeah. I didn't know that. That's what me and my Z Boys call it. Oh, you and your Z Boy friends. Yeah. Yeah. So they had this crazy control. They could skate faster and they could do these more dangerous aerial tricks and shit. And since most people, you know, around the country couldn't build or afford these ramps and didn't have access to empty pools, there were very few

people who were really fucking good at it because they could practice all the time. And that was people in California, especially Southern California and San Diego. So those people got really fucking popular really fast because no one else was doing it. The other thing to remember that will put this, that you need to remember while I'm telling you the story about Gator, is that he is later diagnosed as severely bipolar. And that's not to say this has nothing, I'm telling you this from before when he commits this horrendous crime, but the amount of power and authority he has and the shit that goes to his head, you need to remember that that's based on him being having being undiagnosed and untreated mentally ill. So okay, so while he's

becoming rich and famous at a young age, his mental illness is unchecked in a lot of ways, which is actually really fucking helpful to his career. So let's go. Mark Rogowski is born August 10th, 1966 in Brooklyn, New York, moves to Escondido, California, which is a middle class suburb of northern fucking San Diego at the age of three after his parents divorced, his dad fucking had rage issues and later did and got the fuck out of there. Mark, who went by Gator, started to skateboard at seven years old. He took it seriously even as at a young age and he couldn't afford the boards that everyone else had. So he made his own, which actually made him have a more unique style because he could do shit that other people couldn't do. Yeah. A skate park opened in Escondido,

which is one of the first two skate parks in the nation to open. And just after two years of skating in the park in 1978, he was picked up by a local skate team at just 12 years old. So it's insane. So by 1980 at 14, he's already sponsored by skate brands and making money from endorsement deals for 14 years old. That's not good. So he never had to, you know, work on his education. He never had to be, you know, told by his mom what to do. He never had to do any of that shit. He never learned the basic stuff where you and I are getting fucking made fun of and life sucks and you have to do what your parents tell you. Yeah. By from 12 years old on, he didn't have that. Yeah. I'm not fucking making excuses for him. He's fucking horrible and a total piece of shit. But like...

But there's reasons. Yes. Yes. This is a problem. Yeah. So he's already being paid between four and $8,000 a month for clothing and skateboarding equipment endorsements. He is becoming famous immediately. Everyone loves him because he has a super super super aggressive skate style and these crazy aerial moves and he quickly becomes one of the biggest names in the sport in the sports wins a ton of awards. Personally, he's charismatic and he's lamboyant and everyone loves his personality. By 17, he's earning over a hundred grand annually as a fucking 17 year old. So exciting. Yeah. He pays off his mom's house. He buys himself a house. And he's doing it with this thing that comes naturally to him that is like his... It's basically his go-to to get away

from things being screwed up. Right. And suddenly that's rewarding him. Right. Like that's kind of... He's living the dream at such a young age. Totally. Like you shouldn't be allowed to. Yeah. No one should allow to be successful. Yeah. Some like guru that's right there going easy, go like go do your chores. Right. Exactly. So he's performing around the globe. He's being flowed to Japan just to sign autographs, not even to fucking skate, like shit's bananas. What? Eventually he's fucking... He punches a cop in the face at one point. So like he's just... In Japan? No. Here in the States, not Japanese cops. Could you imagine? And so of course he gets... And that makes him even more famous. All the photos are in thrasher and shit. Sure. He gets

cocky and arrogant and just doesn't give a fuck. And also the reason I mentioned the issues with being bipolar is that some of the symptoms of that is... Oh god. Oh my god. Are you okay? Sorry. I'm fine. What if Steven died on record? It's okay. Take your time. Take your time. I got really excited. Sorry. I'm okay. I just... You're right. You were right a minute ago, a second ago. I'm so sorry. So some of the characteristics of being bipolar are things that ended up making him more famous and a better skater, like impulsivity, not aware of hurting himself. He thinks he's superior.

All that shit. So it actually helped him, but it also made it so he didn't have to have it taken care of. Yeah. It's that thing. You see a lot in stand-up comedy as well. Where your deep personality flaws, and oftentimes because if you're an addict or an alcoholic or something, you have these personality flaws that actually completely serve you and benefit you. And so you spend a lot of time kind of misbehaving and getting rewarded for it. Wow. It's very common. Wow. I did it for so long. I was like, are we good? That's really hard. It's really hard. Oh, that sucks.

Because you... It's basically like when there's a child that learns to show off and everyone's like, isn't that the best or whatever, but then it doesn't end. Then that child is 38 and borrowing money from you. I'm picturing this 38-year-old toddler borrowing money from me and gosh, she's cute. Come on, just $2,000. What? Well, this is him, 100%. So by 1987, he's 21 years old and he's earning $2 per skate deck from the company Vision, which is a new skateboarding company, which we all fucking know nowadays. But back then, it had just started and they were like, let's fucking do this. And they loved him. So they're selling 7,000 of Gator's decks with his specific logo on it.

It's almost like this Alfred Hitchcock, like Vertigo black and white spiral. So they're selling almost 7,000 decks on a monthly basis. Back fucking then. Can I remind everyone there's no fucking internet? Yeah. Like there's nothing. This is purely from Thrasher magazine. Yeah, Thrasher magazine fill out this coupon. That's right. So resulting in royalties, totaling $14,000 a month for him. Nice.

So he's making a fucking shit ton of money. And back then, since there weren't a ton of pro skaters, it was easy for a company just to focus on one person and put everything into that person and for Vision, that was Gator. And he blew up and so did fucking Vision Skatewear. So then of course, after the magazines come out, they start making skate videos, which I remember watching once in a while. My brother was not into skating, so I didn't get that experience. But yeah, there was a nerd who I, there was several people in my life along the lines that have been in skating and skate videos are some of the funniest, coolest and dumbest things you have ever seen in your life.

That can be all in none of it. Like you're watching somebody like take it in the nuts, four times in a row, then landing the most insane trick and then stealing milk from a 7-Eleven. And they're having so much fun and all you want to do is like be there with them. But they don't want you there. They don't want you there. I know it's so frustrating. It makes me really mad.

It's totally like this boys club, these dudes who are like, yeah, you want this lifestyle and you can't fucking have it. But it also to me, from some of the skaters that I've known, it's not as boys club as much as it is like a little survival team. These are people who like get, leave their house because they can't be in their house and they go skate all day because no one's telling them to come home at night. Right. And they're really good at it.

It's, it's the fucking latchkey kid of the 80s and 90s that you and I experienced. You're like, go do something creative and like, what's the word? Go do something constructive or go do drugs. Like it's, you know, and I couldn't skateboard. They make, okay, so skate videos start coming out, which means that people all over the, like kids all over the country can actually see what is happening instead of just photos and they lose their shit. Then they would watch it and then of course they'd have their favorites and Gator was

the top of the fucking heap. It made them all skate stars, including in this group from San Diego is our friend Tony Hawk. He's not our friend and we don't know him. So close friend of mine personally. But he's the face of it now. But the thing is, he was on a plane that we were on recently. No, you're thinking of the ice skater. Aren't you?

Who was it? Oh, Sean White was on the plane. Sean White was on the plane. That's right. Wait, but we were also on the plane with an ice skate. Johnny Weir was on the plane. Johnny Weir. Wow.

Just like cold weather sports guys. You and I would be really good at taboo together as a team. People would not want to fuck with us. No, they wouldn't. We'd be champions, we'd be on thrasher for taboo. And the gestures would be huge. And we'd get everything wrong. But Tony Hawk, like, okay, so if you think of Tony Hawk too,

he was like baby face little kid, skinny little nerd. But Gator was fucking hot. That's the other thing about him is he looked like a man. He had muscles. He took his shirt off. He was fucking in your face. He was like the punk rock skater and he was like hard ass and mean and like didn't give a shit and threw himself into skating in a way that looked like he would break

his fucking teeth off and he did and like didn't give a shit. Yeah, he was street. He was like a street skater. And so there was something about him that made everyone just in awe of him. And so he he was the skater that everyone tried to emulate. He was the top fucking guy, like the rebel punk skate star. And everyone lost their minds. So there were these adolescent kids whose irresponsible behavior was fucking good for

business. The more they punched a cop, the more fucking press they got and they knew it. In an interview in Thrasher magazine, Gator said that skating is quote, a real productive way of venting some harsh aggressions instead of breaking a bottle and slashing someone's face. You're throwing yourself at a wall with sweat dripping in your eyes. And he did have a rage issue that he got from his dad and everyone in the documentary would say that he on a dime would fucking just become a rageful angry person out of nowhere.

Yeah. So he was just this combination of style and edginess and being fucking hot and all, you know, being charismatic as a lot of fucking crazy people are. And it made him a star. And he changed everything, including making vision, create a streetwear clothing for like that. The reason they have vision streetwear is so that Gator could fucking sell his shirts and berets and fucking stickers.

And they say hip hacks in the article, but it's a fucking fanny pack. It's a fanny pack. I'll get on board. Yeah. It's fine. Just be upfront about it. Yeah, it's okay. It's kind of like my favorite murder.

How we saw how we saw hip hacks and berets and hip hacks, you know. So here we go. In 1987, this skate show in Scottsdale, Arizona, Gator is introduced to a 15 year old and he's like, I think he's like 21 at this point, a 15 year old girl named Brandy McClain. And she's there. So they live in Arizona with her best friend, Jessica Bergson. Brandy is the fucking epitome of the California girl, like skate style mid 80s. She's got the bleach blonde hair.

She's fucking cute as shit. She's really outgoing and competent. Brandy and Gator, they fall in love immediately and they start a long term relationship or a long distance relationship. So by the time Brandy 17 Gator had had moves to California, which like if I were her parents, I would lose my fucking shit over that to his house that he fucking owns. And they are there like the it couple and they're together in all these vision advertisements you can see from them, like the two of them together.

They're in that, like the reason that article is called free fallen is because they're in the fucking Tom Petty free fallen video together. Oh, right. Because there's this slow motion skateboarding. Yeah, there's the skateboarding. So there's a lady skateboarding. It's not, that's not her. That's the main girl in the fucking video.

But then when gate, when there's a guy skateboarding up on the ramp, that's Gator. And the girl sitting next to him clapping is Brandy. Like they were fucking it. Yeah. And so they are in promotional videos for Vision and that vision had become the top selling skateboarding brand of the 80s. And by 87, it's fucking huge. They're live touring, bringing in like five to 8,000 audience members, a show doing these

like crazy, what do they call them? Like a demonstration. Yes. And like he has photos with Cindy Crawford. And he's on MTV with fucking downtown Julie Brown and shit. Like he's a fucking celebrity. Remember her. And Dr. Brutes over here.

And let's like just like tour through the 80s. Let's do it. Let's do it. That's right. He plays a saxophone while he under any skateboards over him. It's great. Yeah. So that's, and so they're living the life and gleaming the cube, et cetera, which was

filmed at my high school, the only good thing that ever happened in my high school. Oh, Christian Slater came. Yeah. Yeah. Irvine, what's up? Okay. They travel the world, they live it up. But of course, not shockingly, the relationship is tumultuous.

Gator is often breaking up with Brandy when he had what she calls, and this is not me saying this, a quote manic freak out and would break up with her. And then two weeks later be like, I love you. What did I do? I need you back for, you know, I'm far, I fucked up. He was really possessive of her. He didn't want her even looking at anyone else. It was just really tumultuous relationship.

The kind that is super fucking romantic when you're a teenager. Yes. And then you get older and you're like, that was really problematic. Oh, that was not healthy. Well, as a teenager, though, it's when you get consistently served up some nice drama. Yeah. It feels, it makes you feel important. It makes it feel important.

Totally. It's like that's, you begin to think that's what love is. Yeah. The problems. Prove it to me by this and, you know, cry on my front lawn if you like me so much. That's right. It's a lot of that kind of stuff. Yeah.

It's very lovely. And hopefully we all get over that someday. So Gator becomes more and more arrogant. He alienates himself from his buddies. He's, of course, drinking and they're doing drugs all the time. And in the nine, but then in the nineties, the Gator's popularity starts to wane as vert skating is overtaken by street skateboarding, which is more the Z boys, Dogtown Z boys thing, where you skate off curbs and you make, you do tricks on fucking

flat surfaces and park benches. So it's more accessible to everyone and people kind of like it a little better. And the vert people couldn't fucking do that except for Tony Hawk, which is why we know who he is. So like they weren't like, like Gator wasn't able to learn those tricks. Well, neither was I. When you watch those skate videos, though, it's insane that anyone can do those tricks. Like, especially that one where they go flying and then they skate down the handrail of long stairs.

Everything about that is like, how did you do that the first time? Right. Because that's the scariest thing and there's no way you're not about that. You don't. And you just keep doing it, which I'd be like, ow, that hurt. I did. I said, ow, that hurt. I'm never doing that again.

Right. And they're just like, I kind of can't feel my arms. I'm just going to keep doing it. There's a dog. Can I, can I pause real quick? A dog skateboarder? No. No.

What's that dog skateboarder's name? Question mark. Well, you put that on the, well, you leave that in. I just text Edmunds. Okay. I figured it out after a brief break. His name is Mertie the dog. M-U-R-D-Y the D-A-W-G.

Nope. D-A-W-G. You were thinking D-A-W-G? D-A-W-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N. He's the best fucking dog. He's called the smoothest skater on Four Paws. What was my point of this? You remember?

Were you going to not show me? Oh, I don't. I didn't know. He was like, oh, okay. He just puts her phone away. Yep. I just wanted to know his name and the spelling of his. No.

Dude, he's so into it. He loves it. He loves it. He's like such a good pup. How's that going to cut together? I don't know. It's going to be fun. Okay.

Steven, good luck with that. Okay, so unable to make the transition into fucking street skating. By 1990, he's washed up already. He's like 23, and people are laughing at him. Kids who are skating at the skate park are laughing at him. No. Yeah. So, of course, he's got this issue.

I'm sure he has an ego fucking problem. Yes. Well, and also because it's a thing of the people that go through that, go through it and never think. They never think they're going to not be popular. Plus, if you become rich later in life, you like maybe have some, you understand what not to fucking waste your money on and save some of it.

But like if you're not, not when you're 14. No. I don't think so. No, absolutely not. So, he's washed up as his vision, who files for chapter 11 bankruptcy. Oh. Two, but they come back. Don't worry about it.

Oh, good, good, good. Yeah. So, he's in Australia for some skate thing. This fucking little kid, I don't know how old he is, is bugging him and bugging him to get a fucking autograph. And he's like, leave me alone, whatever. He wouldn't leave me alone. Gator punches the kid in the face.

Which is like, Australia is like, fuck you. Oh, my gosh. Like, so people start to hate him. Yeah. He's got major fucking issues, obviously. He's a fucking dick. You can't punch a child. You can't punch a child.

Australia bans him. So, of course, sales there plummet. And everyone knows you need to be on Australia's good side, because they're the fucking best. That's right. We love you. Shut up. Hey, Melvin.

Perth, we swear we'll come someday. Sydney, what's up? What a bridge. OK, and then things, this is where things like, you can see they make a fucking hard ollie and turn around. Nice. Thank you. Yeah.

So, he's in Germany for a tournament, gets blackout drunk on our best friend, Jager Meister. Jager Meister. God damn it. Which we know is just a gateway to stupid shit. To the worst behavior. Also, it starts so smooth. Like, when you have your first shot of Jager,

it tastes like medicine. And it warms you. Yeah, it warms you, but it also burns. So, you're like, OK, I'm only going to do that once. And then 19 of those later, you're punching a mailbox or whatever. No, you're not. You're falling out of a fucking hotel window and landing on a wrought iron fence.

That's what Gator fucking did. And this whole thing, like, did he jump out of it because he thought he could fly? Did he fall out of it? Did he put it? It seems like he just fucking fell out of it. But him jumping out to think he could fly because he was blackout drunk, which he always did.

Like, doesn't seem out of character either. No, no. For me, you mean? Because you're right. Well, it's one of those things where like, it's the guy who has to be bigger than everyone else. Like, there's a video of him running around naked in the fucking hotel hallway.

And he always has to like, he has to be the one. And so I think, like, of all these, like, rebellious skater dudes, he's the one that, like, scared them a little even. Yeah, which is really saying something because I remember we had a friend who had skateboard friends that would come to comedy parties. And there was one time we were all drunk and, like, people are dancing in a circle.

And then one of the comics jumped in the middle of the circle and pretended he was going to take a shit in the middle of the circle. And then, of course, jumped back out. Who? And Nick Schwarzen. And the skateboard guy, I remember going, yeah, the difference is this was a skateboard party. They really would have shit.

Well, then I don't want to go to a skateboard party. Yeah, I turned to the guy and I go, then there would be shit in the living room. Like, that seems to be the disconnect. But it really is a who will go the furthest. Totally. It's just boys who are left upstairs and no one's paying enough attention.

They never had to mature. And, of course, there's, like, I hate this and I didn't want to call them, like, skateboard beddies. But there's these skateboard grippies who, like, will love them no matter what. They can get away with it. And they'll have to be fucking mature in a relationship. They can do whatever they want, you know.

And why would they change? And they don't think they have to. Everyone's working. It's, uh, yeah. It's almost like they were forced rich kids. It's, like, unnaturally rich, rich kids. Yeah, exactly. No one handles any of that shit well.

Then you put some Yeagermeister in there. Except Tony Hawk. Tony Hawk who, oh my god, is he one? I know nothing about Tony Hawk. He seems nice. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

He seems like, I think he does charity things. I just saw a thing where he posted a video of his daughter dropping in for the first time and watching, she stood there for so long and couldn't do it, couldn't do it, and then she finally does it. And it's the best video. He's a great guy.

Our friend Michelle Balloon, her daughter, who's, like, eight, is learning to fucking skate. I'm following them on Instagram. I think she's younger than eight. I think she's, like, more like six. She's, like, two and a half pipes and shit. I bet she is. She's badass.

Like, really badass. Okay. So he falls on this fucking rod-iron fence, impales the shit at himself, maybe hits his head. I don't know. So, like, whatever. He impales his neck, face, and thumb. Oh, God.

And he wakes up the next morning. He's like, what happened? He doesn't even remember. We had to pull you off of a fence. And you then started trying to fight the fucking ambulance workers. Of course. He's out of control.

So he goes home to Carlsbad to recover where he now lives with Brandi in their condo, but he starts acting super fucking weird. First, he says, first he wants to reinvent himself and changes his name from Mark Gator-Rigowski to Gator-Mark Anthony, saying that his last name, Rigowski, was the name of his dad, who we fucking never knew, so fuck him.

Which is like, all right, fair enough. Still. But again, like, again, with the nicknames or whatever, it's the name isn't going to do it. That's not. No. If only it were that simple. And it was weird because, like, everyone would be like,

I was looking through Thrasher and suddenly there's this guy named Mark, named Gator-Mark Anthony. Who the fuck is that? This guy's like, like, he, you know, I think a lot of people probably were distancing themselves from him at this point already. And then that happened.

Then he becomes friends with an ex-surfer and skateboarder named Augie Constantino, who also had been badly injured in a dumb drinking incident. But Augie had found God from the incident. Okay. He was like this, I need to learn. He couldn't fucking skateboard and surf anymore.

So he comes a born-again Christian and he becomes Gator's spiritual advisor. Okay. And converts Gator to strict evangelical Christianity. Whatever it'll take to get Gator off that fence is good. No. It's not. It's bad.

Okay. We don't like it. He becomes fanatical about it. And like in the documentary, one of his friends is like, he became fanatical about anything he did. So this is not like this was new. He said, Jesus Christ spoke to me

through that incident with the fence. I was a blind dude, but now I can see. So he's born again. He starts covering his boards with religious symbols, preaching to fucking skaters and surfers and anyone else who listened to him about his friend Jesus. He tells Brandy, who's now been there for four fucking years of his bullshit.

So that means she's not in her teens anymore. That because of his newfound religion, they can't fuck anymore unless they get married. Oh. And she takes that chance to be like, great, goodbye. Like, okay, great. I'm going to fucking take this as my exit.

Aside from also Jesus has been talking to me a little bit too and told me to break up with you. Exactly. She's like, awesome. She's sick of his bullshit, including bouts of violence and unprovoked jealousy. And she takes it as her opportunity to get the fuck out of there. She goes home to her parents' house in San Diego,

her mom and stepdad. But the end of this relationship sends Gator fucking over the edge. He's already crazy. It has, it's not her fault. It has nothing to do with her. He's not treated and he's mentally ill. And he, and this is his fucking turn breaking point.

So he starts drinking heavily again using cocaine. Then Brandy starts dating a surfer pretty quickly after the breakup and which she's fucking around to do. Yeah. And Gator becomes obsessively jealous, starts stalking her fucking breaks into her house and steals back all the shit he gave her, including a car steals her car.

Wow. And then making threatening calls to her house, to her fucking new boyfriend's family's house. Somehow he got the number, he's stalking the shit out of her. So he's again, he's a fanatic about making their lives hell. Exactly. And finally, she tries to have a conversation with him and hang out with him and he's like,

I should fucking take you to the desert and kill you and leave you there. And she's just like, my mom knows where I am, take me home right now. And that's where she's like, I need to leave town. So she doesn't want him to be able to track her because clearly he can right now. So she doesn't tell anyone that she's leaving town

except her parents. And she doesn't tell anyone where she's going or why. She just is like, I need to just leave so no one can track me. Yeah. Unfortunately, this is the fatal move because her best friend from way back in Arizona, Jessica, doesn't know that and doesn't know what's been going on

because of course Gator isolated Brandi and was like, you can't have friends, you can't go out with your friends. So they weren't talking as much anymore. And so Jessica didn't really know what was going on in their relationship. So Jessica had been living in Arizona and she moved to San Diego.

She was like this gorgeous girl. She was going to be a model. She was going to open a flower store. So it's March, 1991. She's 22 years old and she had just been in San Diego for like 10 days. She gets ahold of Gator and she's like the only person, this is the only person I know here.

He's 24 years old and she was like, can you show me around and introduce me to people? And like Brandi, she's this tall, blonde, beautiful girl. Her friends described her as tough and savvy and incredibly intelligent and free spirited. So on March, 21st, 1991, they spend the day together. They go to lunch, they fucking hang out all day. There's no undertone of hooking up.

And I get this too where it's like, you know what your friends, boyfriends or ex-boyfriends, you're like, I'm safe because you dated my friend. We're never going to hook up. Right. They go back to Gator's condo to watch movies and drink wine. And around 2.30 AM, she's like, I'm ready to go home.

He insists on taking her home. He's like, let me make sure my driver's license is in my car. He goes out to the car and instead of his driver's license, he grabs his club, which we remember as, I don't think people know what it is anymore. It's a metal auto anti-theft device. My dad still uses it because it's a dad thing. He bought me one when I got my first car.

It's the thing where you put it around, like it's a locking mechanism for the steering wheel that's like a metal thing that you can't steal the car when it's on. Yeah, you can't drive because it blocks the steering wheel. Right. It blocks the steering wheel from moving. So, and it's also like, if you look in the car,

you'll see it, you'll go to another car. Right. My dad still uses it. Except for the people that are good at stealing cars break in and then cut that little part of the steering wheel and take it off. Oh. Yeah.

Shit. Because it only works if there's two sides of the steering wheel. Oh, I'm stealing cars from now on. I didn't even know that. Ask me about these things. I'll tell you. Shit, Karen's a little life of positivity. So positive.

So for some reason, and it was, so it was like this metal bar. Yeah. He brings it in to the house. No. I know. And he, she's on the floor getting her step together, getting ready to leave.

And he strikes her over the head with it multiple times, knocking her unconscious. Just out of nowhere. They've been spending the fucking day together, like hanging out. And then he just snaps. And he snaps. Fuck. We don't know if he maybe put the moves on her and she was like, no, this isn't happening.

But later he says that, that in his mind somewhere during the day, she just turned into Brandi in his mind. Like she was, he wanted to do this to Brandi. And instead he did it to her best friend. So he knocks her unconscious. He ties her up in his bedroom, rapes her for a long period of time. And then he, he smothers her when he puts her in a surfboarding bag.

And he takes all the evidence and drives a couple hours out to the desert and buries her in a shallow grave. So literally exactly what he threatened to do to Brandi. That's exactly right. Unbelievable. It's crazy. It's so fucking heartbreaking. The next day, Jessica's dad back in Arizona is like,

why hasn't I, why haven't I heard from her immediately? Files a missing persons report ends up flying out because he doesn't think San Diego PD is doing enough. Of course. I'm sure no dad ever thinks the fucking PD is doing enough. Of course. Um, and so for the next two months, friends are putting up missing flyer, missing persons flyers.

Even the dad even goats like sees Gator and was like, do you know where she is? They had like shaken hands and Gator was like, I don't know where she is to her dad's fucking face. Um, and so, so Jessica Bergson's body is found by campers or like, it sounds like it was like a kid fucking mountain biking out there on April 10th, 1991. But I think it was so far away and the body is so decomposed

that there's, they can't identify her. So I don't think they knew that she was, it was her yet. Right. But the next day, apparently filled with fucking guilt, maybe Gator confesses to his friend, the surfer dude, Constantine, oh, who told him that he needs to confess, takes him to the fucking cops and is like, go in there and confess.

Oh, good. Yeah. So, and I mean, maybe he would have never been caught. It's, it's very possible if he hadn't confessed, he would have never been caught, which is so fucking awful. So, uh, Gator turns himself in on April 11th, 1991, and he just took prove that he did it. He has to lead them to where he buried her.

They were like, I don't know. They buried her. They were like, what murder are you talking about? They didn't even know about it. Um, and then police search his home. They find evidence of the blood. He had bought like a fucking steam cleaner for his rug, but they pulled it up and the blood had gone all the way down

to the floorboards and, uh, he says that he killed her in a misplaced act of revenge toward his ex, Brandi. He said that she was the mold of Brandi, the mold that Brandi was made out of. So this, this fucking asshole is so problematic. Certain parts where he seems to take full responsibility for it, there's other times where he's like, he says it was because of porn that he watches a kid.

He says that, you know, it's because of fucking, um, having unmarried sex before corrupted him. And it's Satan. Like he won't, he's a fucking dick. Um, and obviously he hasn't come to terms. Right. So then it's just, here's the reason and here's the excuse. Here's the reason and excuse.

So I don't feel terrible about myself. And so I don't have to take any responsibility for this. Yeah. So upon entering prison, he's diagnosed with severe bipolar. And so, but of course he also said that he had thought about getting psychiatric help, but, uh, his religion, his new found religion didn't frown upon that. Go, there's no Satan.

Go get help. Yeah. Everyone. Well, and also I don't understand how a religion could frown upon you getting better if you are suffering. 100%. That, I, yeah, that doesn't seem to track that. Well, what the thing is that is the point is that it's your fault.

And if you are a better person and pray more, it'll go away. And because it's not gone away, that means you're a piece of shit. Like that's not, that's not science. That's not science. That's not how it actually works. If your religion is trying to teach you that, it's because they're trying to keep you down. Yeah.

And you need to question that. Yeah. So of course the story blows the fuck up. It's this perfect story for the media. Hard copy does a dramatic reenactment. And I'm sure the actress quit acting immediately after that. Reenactments from the 80s and 90s. I mean, may they all die a quiet death.

That's right. Because there have been some awful ones. Horrible. He changes the story, makes a bunch of bullshit, says it was kinky sex gone wrong, fuck you. He tells his friends to believe in him. They don't, they do and then don't. He eventually pleads guilty to first degree murder and rape,

avoiding the death penalty or life without parole. So in January 1992, at the plea hearing, he submits a four page written statement, accepting responsibility, but also blames himself for having sex outside of marriage, for being promiscuous, all this other bullshit. Who fucking cares? He sentenced on March 6, 1992.

So that day that he sentenced five extra uniform bailiffs have to be there with mental detectors as guards, because Jessica's dad says, I have nothing to lose. I'm going to fucking kill that motherfucker. Oh no. Yeah, Rogowski apologizes to Mr. Bergstein, who shouts back in a 20 minute fucking monologue

of what a piece of shit this guy is. Everyone's crying while he does it. He says that he's a coward and he should die a thousand deaths. So Rogowski received six years for forcible rape, then 25 years for the first degree murder charges, and he's eligible for parole after 31 years. So February 7, 2011, he's denied parole. Thank God.

I'm saying that he's an unreasonable risk to society. In 2016, he's again denied parole for seven years. So he's not going to be eligible for parole until March of 2023, which marks the minimum of his sentence when he'll be in his mid fifties. So yeah, it's horrible, awful. Jessica's buried in a family plot in Georgia. On the day of her burial,

her father compared her to a butterfly that had just landed on his arm and said, like a butterfly, she was only on this earth a short time but brought so much beauty and happiness. And that is the murder of Jessica Bergstein by Mark Gator Rogowski. Wow. Fucking crazy.

So the fact that something that dark and awful happened in that kind of like, you know, there's a little innocence to that. Like a playful world. Yes. It's like, it's a hobby. It's people getting great at a pastime and then being cool at a pastime. And then succeeding.

Yeah. And here's my line of shoes. And I'm Tony Alva. Yeah. Where it's all very like, hooray for the little guy. So the idea that then the little guy, it turns that hard. Well, that's why I think you don't hear about it a lot is a lot of skaters don't want to fucking talk about it.

Yeah, I bet. Because it just marred their whole career, like it marred their whole, what's the word, job. It's the whole scene. The whole scene. It made everyone look bad. Yeah. It was like the whole, I was also in the 80s of the Satanic Panic

and everyone wanted to make these guys look like, you know, the bad boys and shit. But so they don't know what talks about it. Yeah. But there's this thing that happened and it really happened. Yeah. Wow. Unbelievable.

Really. Well, so while we were on the road, when we did our weekend that was Baltimore, Philly, DC, I kept finding a show on TV called Deadly Rich. I think it was on HLN and I was, it was so satisfying. It was just like all these stories of rich people murdering each other because and every single time it was, you know, there's, there's some like son that is a nair duel.

Right. And then someone finds out that there's a life insurance for $2 million on his mother. There's all those stories. It's just greed, greed, greed. It's insane greed. And also really just no ability to kind of big picture it where it's like this absolutely.

You're going to get caught. You're going to get caught. It's almost like it's the murders and shit that in the crimes that wouldn't happen if you were just average person. Yes. But suddenly it's like I got cut out of the will and I thought I was going to live off this $3 million for the rest of my life. I've been acting like it.

Yeah. And now I get nothing and it's because of this old bat. So, you know, here we go. People not living positively. So there's a ton of negativity, but please watch Deadly Rich. Oh, my God. It sounds awful and amazing. Yeah.

And so satisfying like us coming home from a night of doing shows. And then you're just like, oh, yes. People being pushed down long flights of stairs. Grand flights of stairs. Just the grandest, the grandest doms. Come on, doms. So this one came up in one of those episodes. And it's so funny because I pulled it

because knowing that we had a Detroit show coming up because it was near Detroit. And then began my long journey in did we do this one already or not. Okay. And me, Steven, Jay, like a bunch of us looking into it couldn't figure it out for the longest time. I thought you couldn't have asked me. Well, I know.

I couldn't have asked you. And when Steven and I were looking into it, it was a thing where I had basically said I was going to do it and had research for it and then changed my mind day of. And the funny thing is, Steven goes, yeah, no, in that Detroit show. And he's mentioning stories where I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah, 100%.

I have no memory of it. Yeah, it was very like email records. It was like, you know, the whole thing. Yes. We had to like, we had to go onto the motherboard and get the mainframe up. It's kind of funny when you like ask people who listen. Have we done this?

I know. Because it's been three years of insanity, and we haven't caught up with our brains yet. Yes. So week by week for the past three years, we don't fucking know what we've been doing. Well, and also those live shows, we change our mind day of constantly.

There's something that goes, it's like the part of the panic of this is going to be a live show story. And suddenly it's like it isn't good or is good or whatever. But I've been, but also the reason that I couldn't figure it out is because this story has been on Dateline. It's been on every single one of them has featured this story. So it's like, how have we not done that? It's a city confidential.

I love it. You've seen it a million times. And because it's incredibly lurid. It's the murder of Jane Bechara. Which one is she? She, her, it's okay. You know what? How about you tell me?

How about I don't tell you and then I tell you. Okay, I'll be just tell me, tell me. Um, okay. So yeah, Dudley Rich is the main source. And then obviously all the, um, Wikipedia style, um, and murderpedia. Again, murderpedia, please donate to please keep murderpedia live for us. Okay. So we'll talk, first we'll talk about Jane Bechara.

She, um, is a 56 year old woman who lives in the very affluent Detroit suburb of Gross Point Park. With her husband of 26 years, Bob and their two children. She has a bachelor's and a master's in business administration. Damn girl. And yeah. And she has this really, um, high level job senior market, marketing manager for an energy consulting company in Detroit.

That sounds fancy as fuck. Yeah. She's got so many blouses with ties and ruffle neck. Real silk too. Her nails were perfect. Tennis bracelets. Just every day she was wearing those Eileen Fisher separates. Oh my God.

And like walkable heels. Yes, but still very fashionable. I love her. Yeah. And she's well respected at work, but she's also active in her kids' lives. She's basically doing that suburban mom thing where she's doing it all. She was, um, actually the president of the Gross Point South High School Mother's Club. Jesus.

They have a mother's club? I mean, I, apparently, and that's the kind of thing that if I even put like the flyer in front of my mom, she'd be like, get it away from me. The rich people have so many clubs. They have clubs and they, they basically know how to manage their time. Like, I think it's like they don't eat carbs, so they have a lot of energy. Oh, I was not tired all the time. And they have nannies and house cleaners and shit.

So they're like, well, I didn't spend four hours doing up here. But they were also raised by like surgeons and shit. So they're like, this is not important. Right. This is important. I, my new favorite phrase is generational wealth. Yes. Because like that's what some people are used to.

Yeah. It's like they haven't, there hasn't been a poor person around here for twenty-five years. In gross point blank. So, right. Okay. So, but she's just basically doing it all and killing him. Her husband, Bob, is a 54-year-old businessman who owns and manages about 50 rental properties in the area.

And his father, he's from a like on a wealthy and successful family because his father was a state appellate court judge. Shit. So, I'm on my laptop and I do the thing where I scroll down with the button. And then it flips me back up. Oh, no. Bob also is a lot, very much into philanthropy. And he is the president of gross, the gross point rotary club.

Okay. Where he is known for and lauded for collecting a million pounds of non-perishable food, a million pounds of books and a million pounds of clothing for families. And then lighting it all on fire. Oh, okay. You'll get it when you stop doing drugs. No. All right.

That's nice. He basically is all about giving back. Okay. Great. And obviously, yeah, that's what this family is all about. They're basically an all-American Midwest family that's on the upper range of doing great. Okay. So, it's very surprising when on January 24th, 2012, Jane Bashar leaves for work.

Sorry. It's very surprising that on January 24th, 2012, Jane Bashar leaves work around four o'clock from her downtown Detroit office building. She talks to her daughter on her cell phone and she drives home. And then that night at around eight o'clock, her husband, Bob, comes home from work. And he had been doing maintenance repairs on one of his rental properties. He sees Jane's not home. He tries her cell.

She doesn't answer. And he just figures she's out running errands. They're both busy people. That's pretty standard fare. So, then he just basically goes about his business and relaxes. But around 9.30, when there's still no sign of Jane, he calls some friends and family members. He calls his own kids basically saying, have you talked to mom? Where is she?

What's going on? Then he notices her work ideas in the house, which means she came home after work and then went out after, but her car isn't in the driveway. So, by 11.30 at night, Bob decides it's time to call the police and basically file a missing persons report. So, on Deadly Rich, my favorite new show, they had a 911 call that I didn't get to the clicker in time for, so I had to listen to it. And this is another, we've talked about this a lot. So, I'm the person I don't want to hear 911 calls.

I don't want to see crime scene photos. But on this one, I think I let it... Well, it's not like a panic, I found a body call. So, it's not like the same thing. It's not someone pretending to be upset, which for some reason upsets me 10 times more than how they're faking it. But what is funny is he's trying to sound casual, which is just that thing where it's like... You can't sound casual.

You know, you can't and it's acting is very hard. I think people don't understand that. You're being recorded and basically you're auditioning as you're the husband that's mildly concerned but knows there's nothing really to worry about. And it's kind of like, are there couples who don't know each other's whereabouts for hours? I mean, well, this is back then, I guess not. No, it's 2012. As a f***ing very, not codependent in therapy, we call it interdependent. As a very, as part of a very interdependent couplehood, we know each where the other's

at all the time, constantly. It would make sense. Now, these people are like well into middle age. They're rich. They have children. It might get old. You guys both might be like enough of this checking up. I don't care where you are. You're at the bar still. I don't know. I know where you are. Yeah, exactly. But at the same time, it is weird that just to have no idea. And then it's almost midnight. No, thanks. I would hope to someday be in an interdependent relationship where someone

would give a s*** if I didn't come home by 11.30. It's me. Yeah. Hi. Hi. Oh, is it going to be you? God damn it. Karen, weren't you home? And then I start rebelling against you. I can do what I f***ing want. Yeah, you can.

Oh, oh, I can. No, I don't know what to do. Okay. So the next morning around 9.30 in the morning, a toe-tuck diver comes upon Jane's Mercedes-Benz SUV because it's parked in an alleyway in East Detroit. I don't know this one at all. You don't? No. Okay, hold on because the details might start to come to you.

This alley is six miles away from where they live, and it's clearly not in, like it's the totally different part of town. The driver notifies the authorities. When the police come to look at the vehicle, they find the dead body of Jane Bashara in the back seat of her own car. Honey. Yeah. They take the body to Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office, and there they determine that her cause of death is strangulation.

Okay, so two days later, Gross Point Park Police issue a statement saying that Bob Bashara is currently their only person of interest. Who? Obviously, as it all goes, and we know the husband did it, you look at the husband first. Bob is cooperating with the authorities. He comes in for questioning. He also takes a polygraph test. So they're kind of like, did he not do it? Well, tell me more.

I will. I'd love to. I'm being positive. I want to know. Yeah, it's really open-minded of you to say did he not do it. I know. So both Bob's side of the family and Jane's side of the family comes forward immediately to say there is no way he did this.

I would never say that. I'm sorry, Yolanda and Andy, my in-law, my brother-in-law, and my sister-in-law. I will always say he definitely, or she definitely did it. I did it. Even if you did it. Well, isn't that the worst thing in the world, though? And I think it's also one of my worst fears is the discovery that you, there are people that you would know where you'd be like, of course,

even would never murder anybody. Defending a murderer. Yes. And then you're wrong. Well, that's what a bunch of the skateboarders did, like free fucking, free gator. Of course. But it turns out you're just a piece of shitty as a murderer. Yeah.

That's, it's a big fear. It's a big fear. And also it's like, it's, what is the, what is the extent of friendship? Yeah. How well does anybody know anybody? You don't know anyone. No one knows anybody. No.

And as we've talked about a billion times, the sociopaths and the psychopaths are the most convincing. We know, if Steven got, I would say, Steven did it. There's like a murder that didn't even happen yet. I know Steven did it. Look, look. Listen. Steven is the last person we'd accuse. So Steven's the first person we're going to accuse.

Exactly. That's how, that's how I think he does. So, but both families assert that he's incapable of this horrific act. That's a quote. They also are quick to defend one of the neighbors named, unfortunately, Alex Jones said, said, blue wobbly blah, said they were just a great couple. There's no doubt in my mind that it was not him. So, and so after the questioning, then the police do reveal,

and this is what's interesting is I feel like this is one of those things where local news had caught on to that kind of OJCNN minute by minute reporting where it's such, in that neighborhood, it was such a shock that this woman, this white, rich woman, was found dead in a car that then the basically everything that happens in this case happens on the news. I mean, those people love nothing. The news people know nothing more than fucking cops coming out of a mansion with yellows. Like that's their favorite fucking thing and they'll sit on that for hours.

That's media birthday party. That's right. That's just like we all go to the skating rink and eat cupcakes together because this is, and it gets even more so. Okay, good. Which is not good. Crazy, but yeah, I mean, it's how it is. So, so the thing is that the police reveal that Bob was found to be lying on his polygraph

test. They won't disclose what he's lying about, but they basically are like, we're still looking at him. Would you ever take a polygraph test? It doesn't seem like a good idea. If you were innocent and you were like, I didn't do this, it doesn't seem like it's going to help you either way. I don't trust my own self-conscious.

What is the problem with that word today? That's like, that's your subconscious. That's my subconscious saying, don't fucking talk about me. Don't trust yourself. How dare you talk about me in front of these people. I just don't, I don't know what I would do. Like, I feel like all of a sudden my hands would get sweating in a way that would be like. The thing of like, I'm not stealing anything.

When you're not stealing anything. I'm totally innocent. Right. It's like, yeah, you are. Yeah, right. But then you look guilty if you don't take one. I am so, I paid too close attention to things to not seem suspicious. Right, me too.

Ask for a lawyer. That's, I always ask for a lawyer. And just kind of put your hands up. Just be like, I don't know. Look, Karen. I don't know what to tell you. My lawyer's Karen and Georgia told me to ask for another lawyer. Because, because my, I have such a guilty conscience.

It would be all be coming up and it wouldn't be related to the crime. Totally. Arrested before. Like, yeah, my name is Karen, but they, my parents wanted to name me Gloria. So you're lying about it. So I am kind of lying, I guess in a way. Ma'am, please just answer the question. Well, actually, I have a couple of questions about the question.

Okay, so. For real, seriously. For real now. So, um, on January 28th, this is, so this is about four days later, the police searched the Bashar's home for potential evidence. And they are seen and, you know, it's all on the local news cameras. They're seen leaving the home with several items. Let me guess.

It's like a fucking brick. What a toot or toot or toot or a toot or with some fucking columns. Yes. Shit and fucking clapboard bullshit. You've seen this. You've seen it. I've seen it. You know it.

Okay. In your subconscious. Okay. So, um, a few days later on January 31st, investigators announced that Jane had been murdered somewhere else and her body was placed in her car after death. So, um, now the, it goes on for a while where they're, they're, um, they're watching Bob Bushara. He's, um, you know, he's like basically saying I was gone that day.

These are my, and this is my favorite part. Well, I'll come to this later because Bob, the, um, buildings that he owns. Yeah. I was just going to say, can I make a guess? Anyone who works in like a construction industry or some kind of thing where they have, they have workers. Yes.

Who they can hire to kill the wife and make it look like a random act of violence. So, you know this one. Yeah. So stop ruining my story. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, but this is literally the next paragraph is the same day that they announced that all of a sudden out of the fucking blue, a guy walks into the police station on January 31st.

His name is Joe Gents. He is Bob Bushara's handyman who has worked on different, um, jobs, odd jobs for Bob Bushara over the years, um, comes forward to the police confessing he killed Jane Bushara. Uh, so, uh, he tells, he tells police in the, um, uh, when they interrogate him or whatever that Bob Bushara had promised to pay him $2,000 and give him an old Cadillac in exchange for killing Jane Bushara. It's disgusting.

It's disgusting. Um, not that any amount of money is okay to kill someone, but it's like, that's so sad. It's terrible. Like she is such an important person to so many people and for fucking two grand. It's just all the dirtiest, grossest. It's just like what you don't want to know about other human beings. Yeah, it's like a human being's life is nothing to you. Yeah.

So Joe states that he agreed to the terms. He strangled Jane in the Bushara's garage and then he helped Bob, Bob dispose of her body by placing it in the back of the SUV and driving it to the alley in Detroit, um, city where it was found. Joe chose to confess out of the fear that if, um, any of that information got, got out that all the blame would lay on him and Bob would get away with no consequences. So he basically was saying, I'm coming forward and admitting to this because I want to make sure this guy goes down because it was his idea. And Joe Gens is, uh, they call him, it's, they use different phrases, mentally challenged

his one, like just has a low IQ is another. Yeah. But he seems to be the kind of person that would be easily manipulated and, and is basically kind of saying, please make sure that I'm not the only person that goes down for this. The problem is that Joe Gens' story is inconsistent. In one account, he says that Bob Bushara struck a deal with him to kill Jane. Another one, he says that Bushara forced him to kill Jane at gunpoint, um, saying that if he didn't kill her, that then he would kill Gens.

So if Gens didn't kill Jane, that Bushara would kill Gens. So, um, immediately then Bob Bushara's attorney, um, a guy named David Grime, um, he claims that Bushara had actually owed Gens the two grand and that Gens murdered Jane Bushara out of anger for not being, for not repaying him, which doesn't really track. Bob maintains that he was in no way involved with Jane's murder and that, um, his team leans on Gens' mental disability to call the confession into question. So it's basically like this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. He also says that he doesn't, that Bob doesn't even own a gun.

So the version of Gens' story couldn't be true. And the authorities hold Gens for three days to question him, but then they basically say, you're right, this is a false confession, and they dismiss the confession and they release Joe Gens. What? Yes. Okay. What is that?

I don't know what's true anymore. I know, right? So, and neither do the police. So then, okay, but the thing is the media already has their teeth in this story and it's the classic, like then there's a confession, but the confession doesn't stick. It's almost like good that the media is involved because they're like, wait a fucking goddamn minute. Yes.

Yeah. And they're, and they're like, well, there's gotta be other stuff and there's gotta be people willing to talk. And we need more video footage of tutors. That's right. Being rated. We need houses being, uh, rated.

Fully, fully rated. Yeah. And men in blazers walking out and looking concerned. That's right. We all need that. So, uh, okay. So then on February 2nd, 2012, the story breaks that Bob Bechara has been leading a double life. Of course he has.

And is this the part, this might be the part that clicks it over into true familiarity for you. Okay. Because not only has Bob Bechara been having an affair with a woman and keeping, basically keeping a woman. Of course. He's also, he runs a secret S&M club. How the fuck did I never heard of this? Okay.

So that would have been, that would have been the detail. That was, that would have been the trigger that clicked it into my memory. Because that. No. If the other part was the media birthday party at the roller rink, then that was the coke dealer showing up and saying everything's for free. Because a, a, a murder in the suburbs and then the husband as a double life as a sex S&M guy. I can hear the city confidential episode.

Which is my favorite fucking show in the whole world. Yes. They fucking interview the local journalists. They fucking, it's just the best. Yes. They. Oh my God. In the sleepy bird.

In the sleepy bird. But Nahl was not in well. In the moot. So in this episode of Deadly Rich, so that, I'm sure there's a city confidential and positive about it. But in this episode, there is a guy named Mike Boyanis. And he runs the bar called the Hard Luck Lounge. The local fucking dive. Yep.

Where the journalists go to eat. Well, that Boba Chara owns the building. So he's basically Mike Boyanis' landlord. Uh-huh. And this, the episode of Deadly Rich kicks off with Mike Boyanis being like, he wasn't my friend, he was my landlord. Whoa. He gave everybody the creeps.

Like him just holding forth. And so then one day. We have to go there next time we're in Detroit. The Hard Luck Lounge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope it's still there. Because this guy, I love him so much. And he says, at one point, the fuse box like blew out or whatever.

So they had to get an electrician. And they went downstairs into what was known as Bob's office. That no one went downstairs into. He kept it locked. But the electrician has to go in there. Because that's where the fuse box is. Oh, God. The electrician comes back upstairs and is like,

yeah, so he's got like whips and chains and things to hang people from the ceiling. He's, he's got real 50 shades of gray. It's not some fucking hot dude. Yeah. With like clean fucking equipment. It's not a hot millionaire. It's Bob Bouchard. In the, in the basement.

With some fucking greasy ass shit. Shit under the Hard Luck Lounge. Mike Boyanis says to the electrician, I don't want to hear about it. He basically goes like, do not make me think about that. I don't want to know. Oh my God. Yes. So basically these people, the people that know the real Bob Bouchard start coming

forward and going, you might want to check those. Yeah. And you might want to check that. So that's how all this stuff starts coming out. Okay. Um, and of course the media is having an insane S&M field day. This is their dream come true. It's a fucking story of the century.

This is prom queen city. Okay. So that then also. Prom queen city is the name of the episode, right? Sure. Okay, great. So then they also start learning about this woman that is basically this kept woman that Bob is, it's like his secret girlfriend.

Um, Bob comes out and says, no, no, no, we're only friends. Um, but then of course the pictures and the travel documents surface that prove that Bob took a trip with this woman out of state to one of her relatives weddings. See, this is what happens when you're not interdependent. You can't track the fact that your fucking husband is going to weddings of other people's cousins. And imagine this isn't like a sexy hot sex relationship where they're like, meet me in the basement.

I'm going to hang you up by your ankles. No, it's like kick me in the dick until I cry. It's, this is like, I'll go to your cousin's wedding in Albuquerque. No, like he's, he's, like I'm going to cause you pain. Yeah. I'm going to make you go to my cousin's. You're going to make small talk with my Aunt Marie while you eat canapes in the sun. Oh my God.

That's the real S and M right there. So, but basically all this proof is coming up where it's like, no, no, no, everybody knows that you were actually not only like she was his real girlfriend, but she was his real girlfriend. He was keeping her in an apartment above the hard luck lounge. Shit. So her apartment's up here, then poor Mike's in the middle going, get out of here. Why does she and Mike fall in love and run away together?

No, Mike talks about it very early on that his wife is in the mix. Okay, great. And he said, he, that nobody, when Bob came around, he was a terrible tipper. He never paid for the drinks that he ordered. Of course. The guys liked him because he was a dickhead and then all the women were super skieved out by her, including his wife, who said she, the only time she ever shook Bob Bashar's hand, the pair on the back of her neck stood up.

So we got to love Mike, who is the true narrator of this show. And he's just like, so there's a point where the police are surveilling Bob Bashar and like watching his every move, right? Because everybody kind of knows this guy is dirty and in the mix and something has gone on and we have to get him for it. And Mike is watching it on the news and goes, he realizes as he's watching the news story and he goes, oh, this guy's going to use the, he's going to use the hard luck as an alibi. He's like, oh, we're going to get pulled into this.

Like he's watching it on the news going, this son of a bitch is going to make this his alibi. Because after a while it gets so crazy of him being accused and saying, no, what are you talking about? I would never go to that part of town and all. Okay, so, okay. So the woman who was the kept woman, she's basically they're kind of tracking her life as well. She was normally a model employee. I'm not giving her name or where she worked.

Why? You can look it up. No need to. I mean, yeah, whatever. This is a, this is about- This has nothing to do with her. Yeah. She's more of a-

She's an innocent, innocent in this. Yeah, maybe. Oh. But who, also who cares? Yeah. Like, I don't know. She's, she's definitely, we don't know how innocent and how involved and what demand she was making on him, but I don't know.

She wasn't demanding that he fucking killed his wife. Do we know that though? We don't. So basically- But being positive. You're being positive. And I'm saying there was reports that woman was considered a model employee at her work, but then slowly it starts developing a bad reputation for her apathetic and sometimes

aggressive attitude at work. And then in 2011, she changed her emergency contact from a female friend to Bob Bechara. So she's, I mean, that's kind of like you're out and about with like- That's my boyfriend. Yeah, because this motherfucker says, my marriage is, we don't sleep in the same room. It's not, she knows about you, it's totally fine. I'm going to leave her soon and we're going to get married. And then she's like, well, if all that's the case, then you're going to be my emergency contact.

Yeah, that's the basics of like, you're my person. Yes. It's actually, you know, a very sad thing when you go to fill out an emergency contact and you have to figure out who's named to put on there. That's a very, that was a very dark post-divorce time for me. Yeah. Where it's like, oh my emergency contact now. I had a post friendship of that where it was like, well, I clearly didn't trust the dudes

I had been dating before that because I always use her name. And then when we, she and I had like a falling out and broke up. It was like, I have to use my guy's name. Yeah. I guess I have to stay with him. What if something happened to you and then they call someone that doesn't like you anymore? Yeah, she's like, great, leave her alone. Leave her, leave her where she lies.

She said, don't resuscitate her. Oh, did she? She told me, just let her have that seizure out in public. She doesn't want stitches and don't resuscitate. Goodbye. She doesn't like stitches. After receiving a poor performance review in 2009, she chalked her poor performance up to family issues,

but then promised her performance would improve, but it only got worse. And the day Jane's body was found, this woman left work without any notice and was later fired. So there's a connection that would indicate perhaps that she knew what was going on, perhaps. But I don't know, man. I want to defend her. Okay.

You can. In my mind. Good night. Would you defend her if I told you that this woman is Casey Anthony? No. Shut up. Are you lying? Yes.

You fucking cunt. I believed you. It all, it's like every terrible true crime story. It's like a jam band of true crime assholes. Okay. Okay. No, I still believe in her. Okay.

So it's basically revealed that Bob and this woman's relationship is based around their mutual love for S and M. Great. And the, um... Who's isn't? Like just want to go and say. I mean, really. At the end of the day, let's not that it's shame because it's hot.

Kick me in the dick. I love it. Whips and chains and chips and dips. So that's a line from like a Bill Murray movie. Don't quote me on that one. That's a Bill Murray for sure. So the woman lives upstairs, the hard lock bar is in the middle, and then the sex dungeon they use together is downstairs.

Right. Horrifying. Upstairs, downstairs. What a horrifying sandwich. Horrifying sandwich. Write that down. They learned that the two were making plans to add a third woman into the relationship.

They also learned that Bob was planning to purchase a house for this woman. Karen, how come you can't be sex positive? I'm trying my best. I'm just an old, old prune. Okay. Okay. So then Bob refuses to comment publicly on this affair, on the sexual behavior, on anything.

But he does say that he and his wife had an open marriage and that these behaviors had nothing to do with Jane's murder. Bull. A shit. A bull shit. A bull shit. On February 8th. 2012 still.

2012. Probably because of Joe's confession, combined with this new scandalous information, police searched the Bashara home again for, for evidence. And they find in the garage, hair samples and blood in the area that Joe Gens noted in his confession. Oh. They basically just go to his confession and pull up a bunch of samples.

Oh, shit. And send it all in to the lab for tests. Bob's defense attorney, guy I talked about before, then hires a retired FBI agent. Uh-uh. So that the defense can conduct their own investigation. Oh, no, we found that he's innocent completely. And it hates being kicked in the balls.

Yes, exactly. He's never, these hair fibers prove that he doesn't like to get kicked in the balls. Oh, we believe you. The defense team notes that the second search of the Bashara home could be tainted because so many people had walked through in between the first and second search. Oh, gosh. Around this same time, the police find and impound a Cadillac

from St. Clair Shores, a St. Clair Shores parking lot, where Joe Gens had been driving it and Bob Bashara was registered, the registered owner. Oh, shit. So. Link, link them together. Yeah, now they're together. And basically it's like the guy that everyone was trying to say

is not that smart or crazy or whatever everything he was saying is true. I'm sure they made some dumb like, they're shackled together in like the city of the confidential episode. Yeah, oh, yes. They're shackled together. The puns, I'm sure, are flowing. So on March 1st, the lab results finally come back, and the blood sample taken from the Bashara's garage is Jane Bashara's blood.

The next day, Joe Gens has arrested and charged with first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. And the conspiracy charge indicates someone else is involved, but there's no hard evidence linking Bob Bashara, so he remains free. March 9th, authorities report that the clothing that Jane had been wearing the day of her murder was missing, and it's believed that the clothing had been released to the funeral home that handled Jane's funeral. The clothes may have been mistakenly thrown away.

Wait, wait, wait, the clothing she was wearing when she was found. Yes. When her body got sent to the funeral home. Yes, everything's gone. They throw those clothes away. Don't, don't do that. No, no, never do that. Holy shit.

Apparently they're not going to do that. Apparently that happens somehow. So all sides attorneys were mad about that missing evidence, but then they used it against each other to try to invalidate each other's cases. In April, multiple sources report that Bob Bashara is the focus of the case. He is the, with still the prime suspect, but the police aren't saying anything, obviously, to the press, because it's, it's the true field day for the press. A couple months later on June 24th, Bob Bashara is arrested,

but not for the murder of his wife. They get him because he tries to hire a hitman to kill Joe Gents before Joe Gents testified in his, at his own murder trial. He's a stupid fucking idiot. But the hitman he tries to hire is an undercover cop. Oh my God. Yes. And that's another part in Dudley Rich.

Those 911 tapes are hilarious. The accents, those like Midwest, Michigan accents, and they're like, well, yeah, you know, so you got to, I just need this guy dead. We're going to get so much hate mail from people from Michigan right now. Look, watch it. Don't listen. Don't listen, but this really happened. It's on tape.

It's, it's pretty crazy. And the, just the idea, it's like, are you just going to kill the world? Like what is your solution? You're always going to get caught. It's because people, you have to have some fucking humility and think you're kind of stupid and like have a little bit of low self-esteem and be like, I'm stupid and everyone thinks so. Just a, just like half a teaspoon.

Have a teaspoon. It's healthy. It makes you not do shit. It keeps you grounded. Right. It keeps you like low key. Like having to build up your self-esteem because you have low self-esteem makes you not a fucking asshole who thinks you can get away with anything.

That's right. Right. And also what, like the idea that suddenly there was someone there. Right. Available. Oh, get another person who's a fucking, who's happy to be a hitman. Yeah. Like that doesn't make him suspicious. Sir, think it through.

Okay. So yeah, if things seem like a little too fateful, it's because it's an undercover car. Right. People in general. Everyone's an undercover car. Everyone is trailing you. Just assume that they're all undercover cars. They put a GPS thing underneath your car.

Right. Be aware, be paranoid. Okay. So, Bob pleads guilty, but he admits, admits he did attempt to have Gents killed, but he says it was not in an effort to keep Gents quiet. No, no, no, no, no. No, it was a revenge killing for the murder of his wife. You're so brave.

He was so livid. Either way, Bob is sentenced to six to 20 years in prison. Okay. While in prison, Bob exhibits a series of strange and aggressive behaviors and routinely gets himself into trouble. He tracks up violations for hiding or hoarding his medication. Hmm. He also gets in trouble for lying, which apparently is a big deal in jail.

Really? I don't know. Liar, liar, pants on fire. He gets in trouble for talking when he's not supposed to and using profane language. I'd be fucked, like, in prison. Dude, also, what is this prison? It's like...

It's like a kindergarten. It's a convent prison. So, December of that year, 2012, Joe Gents pleads guilty to second-degree murder for his part in Jane Bashar's death, and he's sentenced to a minimum of 17 years in prison. That's not long enough. It really isn't.

None of it is... It's all such a disgrace for Jane Bashar. Her children have to live with this for more than 17 fucking years. That's right. So, but the good part is because of all the information that gets disclosed during Joe Gents' trial, Bob Bashar is once again implicated for the murder of his wife. But this time, they have much more,

like, stronger evidence that it actually sticks. So, on May 1, 2013, after more than a year after Jane's death, Bob is arraigned on first-degree murder, a conspiracy to commit murder, solicitation to commit murder, witness intimidation, and obstruction of justice charges for his part in his wife's murder.

Ya dick. Ya dick. During Bob's trial for Jane's murder, it's revealed that he was experiencing marital and financial problems leading up to her death. And several of Bob's mistresses testify in court against him. Several. Now, you should see this guy.

He, this, this guy looks like Tony Soprano's older cousin that let himself go. Oh, hey, babe. It's not, it's again that thing where you're just like, is it his confidence? It is, is it his, his ideas that he thinks? Let me see him. Steven's got a photo.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely not. No. Would not touch that dick or kick it hard. That's all he wants you to do. Yeah. Okay, so they, his mistresses testify against him, including the one he was buying the house for,

saying that Jane had found out about the affairs weeks before the murder, and basically that they provide the motive. Suddenly it's all very clear what he was doing and why. So on December 18th, 2014, Bob Bashar has found guilty on all charges for murdering his wife, and on January 15th, 2015, he sentenced to life in prison. Now, what's odd is Joe Gents in December of 2015

recants his statement that Bob was involved with his murder and claims that he was coerced by police to sign the affidavit stating Bob's involvement. What? Yes. Which is very odd, because basically his initial testimony is what brought all the evidence that proved he was involved. Yeah, you can't take that away once it's proven.

No, it's very strange. Okay. So, but then Bob files for retrial saying that his legal team from 2014 was ill-equipped and mishandled the case, but it all gets denied and he remains in prison under a life sentence. And if you watch Deadly Rich, there's this really amazing part. The woman who was the judge in that trial is, has none of it and is super, like they talk about,

she actually is there talking about how she could tell that Babashar did not like that a woman was there deciding his fate. He was very angry and very combative and very weird with her. And she is the biggest badass. You have to watch it because she's so cool. But essentially, all his requests are denied and he remains in prison under a life sentence, basically, for having his wife killed. And that is the very tragic murder of Jane Bashara.

Holy shit. Nuts, right. And then what about Casey Anthony? What happened? And she went ahead and now she's hosting her own Fox Game Show. Oh my god, I have never heard of that. What a dick. Yeah, just so gross.

Yeah. Just so gross. Yeah. And weird. And also, you know, you can be super into SNM and not kill anybody. Just break up with each other. Yeah. Like, that makes me so sad to think of like being in a marriage and not knowing

all these things about my life, essentially, that are happening. You know, it's happening. Yeah, it's so unfair. Well, and also I think he, you know, because he had those financial problems is that kind of thing where it's like, this was going to be a murder of convenience. A solution to a problem that you made. Yeah. A solution to like nine problems that you made.

Yeah. And it's also poor. It's like borderline Cohen brothers. How bad he did it. How badly he planned it. He was so cocky that he thought whatever dumb ass fucking plan he made was going to work. Well, and that he was pulling in people, not professionals, but like he basically was pulling like the cheapest person he could find.

Yeah. It's just all dirty and awful. I hate him. Yes. The end. The end. Let's fucking hooray this shit. Do it.

Mine is hotel chicken strips, which is why I wanted you to go first is like a think of something else. But I have to say, all these travels we've been doing, being able to order off the kids menu in a hotel and just get fucking chicken strips is really comforting to me. Mine was going to be the Shangri-La Hotel in Toronto, which is the nicest hotel I've ever been to. The nicest hotel I've ever stayed at had the best customer service, like in a way where it almost didn't make sense. They were anticipating what you needed and giving it to you. You're like, leave me alone.

I'm not stealing anything. Oh my God. What are you accusing me of? And it's like, no, we're just really good at being a hotel. I had chicken strips twice there. Did you? Off the kids menu. Yes, I fucking did.

No, that was, I support that fucking hooray. It's like a comforting thing. Like after a crazy show, it's bananas. You come back to the hotel room and you don't want to order food. I go to the kids menu. I ordered chicken strips. It's a dream. It's a dream.

It's a dream. Well, the reason I made you do chicken strips first is because I wanted to talk about, and it's a thing that we actually talked about at one of the live shows, but it won't go up. This will be up before that, is the death of Brodie Stevens, who is a really legendary standup comic here in LA. He's also been in a lot of movies, and he has a very long resume. You can look him up on IMDB.

He's been in everything. But he's also just one of those people like a lot of, I knew him pretty well, but a lot of people, he was one of those comics that did three shows a night every night. So lots and lots of comics. He was like a part of everyone's life. He was like a standard. He was just around. But he really, really suffered with his mental illness, and he did the thing.

There's actually a show that they made that was on HBO and Comedy Central called Enjoy It with Brodie Stevens, and it is a brilliantly made show. Zach Alfenacus and Mike Gibbons were the EPs. Joe Wagner and Tom Sharp were the writers. I did a little thing for it in episode 12, but it was an amazing time. It was an amazing television show about a comic who has mental illness and deals with it and is trying to deal with it, and it's such a tragedy. If you are dealing with your mental illness and you feel lost and you feel alone, please

reach out, and there are tons of, we will post a great place to reach out to and put it out there. But hopefully one of the things about this community that has grown up around this podcast is the freedom people feel to talk about mental illness and mental health and the importance of it, and it really is important. Brodie Stevens, the idea that he's not here anymore is just leaves a hollow feeling. It's just the strangest, worst feeling, and the idea that he felt alone, and he felt that he was at the end of his rope that way is fucking awful. And I just would really urge you, if you are even close to any of those feelings,

please, please, please reach out and get help and get real help and let people tell you how to manage your mental illness and your mental health because you can't see it from the inside. And it is a huge struggle. And these days, because so many people don't have benefits with their jobs and there isn't the support that there should be, it's really hard, but people want to help you. So please remember that and please, in the spirit of Brodie Stevens, who would constantly on stage talk about positive push and going for it, he just always seemed like he was actively working to be positive.

Ironically, our joke of the show, yeah, I mean, it's what he really was like. And watch all his comedy because he also was an incredibly individual voice. He really was doing his own comedy all the time. And he was hilarious and he knew how funny he was. He also didn't understand how funny he was. But his material and his act, it was the celebration of himself. It was incredible. It was the best.

It was always a joy to see him on a lineup, but you'd walk in and be like, this is going to fucking blow me away. Yeah. And he was so vulnerable, too. Yes. And I mean, it's just, yeah, it's so sad. When he, when I worked on Late World with Zack, which was the second staff writing job I ever had, and it was Zack,

Zack Altonakis had a talk show on VH1 before the Hangover fame came. And a lot of the people I just named worked on that show. And Brodie was the warm up guy. And we would make sure that we got all our stuff done so that we could get over there for the beginning of the taping, which you really don't do most of the time as writers. The warm up guys are very, it's a very noble and lonely job that they have to warm that audience up by themselves and they do it.

Brodie was the warm up guy for one of the worst audiences consistently, like people nodding out on heroin because it was a paid audience. And paid audiences are the worst because they're only there for the money. A lot of times they don't speak English. They're like, they're tourists that have come in and then they're like, Oh, do you want to go see a TV show? You could make 50 bucks or get a free lunch. So it was Brodie busting ass to make people laugh.

There would be like five comedy nerds in the audience. And then 45 people who are like, I kind of don't want to be here or am not here. And he, every, you know, I'm from Recita. I have headshots. I mean, I just gave it to those people for two full hours and we would just go watch them and cry laughing. What's so sad is that when you have this mental illness and this issue, you, you know, it's the whole thing of like people call,

people saying incorrectly that suicide is selfish. When it's not, you think you're doing everyone a favor and you're not because people are mourning you. We want you there. Think of it in a way that like, get better so you can someday tell other people who are in the position you're in right now that it does get better and there is help. And like, I think you said before that anxiety is a liar.

Yeah. Whatever your brain is telling you that you should, you don't deserve to be here. You should be gone. It's, it's a lie. That's a fucking lie. It's a fucking lie and you do and your depression and your anxiety and your mental illness makes you interesting and who you are and a good

person and meds aren't going to get rid of that. Right. They're never going to. Well, and that is another thing that I said the first time I, the night it happened and I just kind of said something weird because it was so shocking to me that I just, I just wanted to say something. But, but it really is true that this idea, we're not all trying to become perfect.

That's no, no one should want that at all. And comparing yourself to like the way you think people live, that's, that's also a lie. What's most fascinating is being your true fucked up vulnerable self, which is why good comics are good and bad comics are bad. Because good comics stand on stage and go, here's me and all my weird, hairy, sweaty truth. And people go, oh my God, I'm hairy and sweaty too.

Thank God. And if you go up there going, I'm, I'm perfect. Listen to my ideas. Everyone in the audience goes, I feel terrible and I don't want to watch this. And that's Brody was the embodiment of that. I'll tell you all the things that are going on with me and yell and positive push. And we're going to like, we're going to have the best time.

And it's like, it's rare. A lot of people don't get that about comedy. And that's, that's why he's going to be so missed is that voice. He, he did more than I think he even understood. He did. Obviously. Yeah. A hundred percent.

I'm really sorry. Oh, thank you. I mean, I'm sorry too. I'm, I couldn't be more sorry. That's a huge loss. Yeah. Well, I'm glad I didn't go second with fucking chicken strips. I know.

That's what I was trying to give you the old eyes signal of like chicken strips. You go ahead with your dumb ass chicken. No, it's, but, but chicken strips, I feel like we, I couldn't be more grateful actively about this life that this, this conversation that we get to have has given us because truly it's my dream to eat chicken strips in a fancy hotel room. It's my true dream. Yeah.

And my dream is coming true. We really have a very lucky, happy, incredible, ridiculous life that I'm so grateful for. And that I three years in can't wrap my head around. Yeah. It's a, it's a lot. It's real. There's a lot of whiplash because it's very different. It's very different than my life before.

It's like a chicken strips in a hotel room was a distant fucking dream for me only two years ago. Being able to talk and listening to you talk about mental health to people who need it and don't need it or have friends and don't, you know, I feel very lucky that we get to do that. Yeah. Yeah, it's important. Yep. Thanks you guys. We really appreciate you.

Yes. We 100% do. And we will post good outreach numbers right away because we don't want to just say stuff like that. We really want people to be able to reach out. Twitter, my favorite murder and Instagram, my favorite murder. We'll post the numbers on there. Also, apparently there's somebody on YouTube that's playing Red Dead Redemption 2 and using

our logo and it's all in Spanish. All of it is probably my favorite thing that's ever happened. That's our channel. Don't worry, it's our channel. We have hired a guy to play Red Dead Redemption 2. 24 is 7. With our logo. And we'd love for you to watch it.

It's really good for you. Thanks guys. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, you want a cookie?