My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 166 - Respecting the History of Coins

Episode Date: March 28, 2019

Karen and Georgia cover the Cincinnati Who Concert Stampede and Glennon Engleman.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And welcome to my favorite murder, the podcast. That's right. The podcast that's true crime. It's comedy. It's coming at you live from the exactly right studios here in downtown Glendale. That's Karen. It's on the razor's edge of Glendale. That's Karen still.

That's Georgia. Heartstark over there. And listen. Look. We're trying. We're now fresh off of two back-to-back weeks of touring. Sure, the guys in Def Leppard are saying, so what? Fuck you, child.

But they get whiskey. That's nothing. Like, and chicken fingers and sparkling wine. And that's if you're in a good spot. And that's if you're, if you haven't drank all your drinks in the 90s, which I did, and get nothing now, yeah, I could, I could do touring for months at a time if I could just willy-nilly snort cocaine and ants. Sure.

And all the things that those guys used to do. Did they snort ants? You never heard that story of like, it was when Ozzy Osbourne was on tour with, I think, Motley Crue. Yeah. And at one point, it might have been Ozfest or something. Yeah. They got off a bus and Ozzy got down on the cement and snorted up a line of ants.

No. Like, you only get so many snorts in your life. So why waste it on fucking critters? Because maybe you're on a certain drug that makes critters seem so appealing. And it makes it so fun. You want to just make your friends laugh. Yeah. That's, it's, she's just trying to impress Vince Neil.

Aren't we all? I mean, with the end of the day, that's all podcasts are. That's all any of us are doing is like, look over here, Vince. NPR. We're on to you. Plus, you know, that's who you want. You know, you want him. We all do.

Can I tell you a story, please? About my mom. Yes. Janet. Janet would often text me things saying, you're on the front page of the Yahoo News. Or recently, she likes shit like that and recent, and I go to Yahoo News and like, what are you fucking like? There's nothing.

What are you talking about? I look for it and there's nothing. And she'd be like, you're everywhere, I saw your book on whatever the fuck. And then last week, she texts me, pigtails, just the word pigtails, you're everywhere. So I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I finally talked to her and I think she doesn't remember the fact that she put my favorite murder as a, what is it called? Search item.

Yeah. So like every time there's a news thing, it comes up. An alert. So she just thinks that we're insanely famous and just keep coming up on her Yahoo News. She thinks for the front page of Google. Again? Georgia. So pigtails is the MFM animated, the new MFM animated.

Our little girl with the gun and Nick Terry's beautiful animation. Yeah. So she thinks that she said, you're everywhere, pigtails. And I was like, what are you, and there was like a thing I made fun of her about on stage about like pigtails and how she'd be mad at me. It's like, oh shit, here it starts, but. But no, no, she's just going off those Google alerts. And I just don't think she knows, so I'm going to let her just let her and be like, yeah,

if you don't want your name in one of those alerts, Jan, you need to tighten up your game. That's right. Get a little more respectful. Can you please? What would you ever? How dare you? What have you been doing since you got home from tour? Oh, I got foot surgery.

Yeah. Like a real asshole. It was not what I expected. Turns out general anesthesia is not the same thing as local anesthesia. Oh, it's the, I would say in medical, in the medical world, it's the opposite. In general, general sounds so chill. It's yeah, it's almost like anesthesia from three feet back. Yeah.

It's like you're thinking. It's here, it's there. It's anesthesia. You won't feel it. Don't worry about it. That's what I thought it would be. Instead of night night. Night night.

Yeah. Yeah. You got night nighted out of there. And I got a tumor taken off my toe. Good. That's good. Are you sure? Yeah.

No regrets for that. I mean, Nashville, I'm coming at you next, next weekend. Georgia has a precious little boot. One cowboy boot. And the other, I'm a medical boot. That's right. Yeah. What's up with you?

I'm glad that you just got some business take care of me too. I had brilliantly made an appointment for a two hour massage for the day after we got back. Oh, why are you so smart? I don't know. Well, but it's from the lady that you recommended from that whole place. The facial and chin? Yes.

Oh, that's like your place. Trina, it's the spot. You know, sometimes when you get, I don't, when I have signed up for something, I just want it. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want someone to ask me questions about all my feelings about. You want to fill out a form between what parts of your body encircle weird shoulders and shit?

The answer is none of my business. I don't know. It all hurts me. Please solve it. Yeah. You should know what parts hurt me. How about you dig in? How about you get your fingers all warmed up and dig in and you tell me what parts I should

be focusing on. So we had a, what for me as a person who was looking forward to it for like 12 days, was the longest interview process of talking about things. And you're like, is this part of the two hours? Exactly. I was like, is this cut and is this eaten into my time? You're trying to burn off time at the top, but. Like how different do you think the massage would have been from her, from you having

to fill out a fucking form, which is stressful and not chill, which is not what you want on that massage. And just getting in there with her fingers. Just dig it in. Get me into that pan flute area. I don't want to talk to anybody ever, especially four minutes before I'm supposed to be in a relaxation city. Just let me go to there.

And if you leave anything out, you're not going to be fixed. I know. Okay. I do have to tell people I have epilepsy though, because that would be a little shocker. How annoying. But then it turned out, so does she. And then she had all kinds of recommendations and I was like, literally, we can do this anytime.

Yeah. We can do lunch. Can you please just dig into my back now? So she does it. And afterwards she told me that my back and neck are so tight. She goes, your neck muscles wouldn't let me get in there at all. So like she couldn't even massage the muscles she needed to massage because there was muscles on top of those that were like no admittance.

She was doing like a skin massage. She was like, she was, she thought I was half robot. She seemed like she was on the verge of tears when she was telling me, I'm going to quit and go back to school for what? For people who are this mentally ill, but they put everything into their back. She was just like, how do you, there's lumps under that side. I'm like, yeah, I know. That's my side.

Get around that. And then the other side's pretty much the same. It was hilarious. But anyway, but here's what she, I thought you would be excited to hear. She was like, do you ever take baths? Oh, and I was like, I really don't. Especially because my bathtub is old and I just picture all the, all the feet that have been in it.

But she was like, if you can start taking baths and soaking in Epsom salt, just, just like just to get the beginnings of the muscles. You have room in that backyard for a fucking above ground jacuzzi. I have an in ground jacuzzi. Well, shit. I just never get in. I didn't see it. I know it's very subtle.

It's very subtle. Oh my God. How do you not go in that? I don't know. Cause then I'm like, then I'm going to smell like chlorine and I don't know. It seems weird. Like I'm all by myself in the backyard smoking a cigar in the jacuzzi. Yes.

Karen, that's all anyone wants to see Instagram that shit. Can they see? You are a jacuzzi influencer from now on and I need it to happen. I do want everyone to know that the jacuzzi was invented by Roy jacuzzi and that's why it's called that. Yes. Look it up. Roy might be the wrong name.

Yeah. But yeah. That's a family name. Jacuzzi. Isn't that hilarious? That's so cute. I know. I love that.

I love a jacuzzi. Get your swim trunks. So when I was a kid and my dad, my parents divorced and so we had to go to my dad's house every other weekend to stay with him and he stayed in these like divorced apartment buildings that had a fucking pool in jacuzzi, which is the best. So he'd always say, bring your swim trunks and let's go have a nice jacuzzi. So now that I live in an apartment building that has a nice jacuzzi, I fucking go take a nice jacuzzi.

You're all about it. Dude. It's chill as fuck. Now, how are your swim trunks? Are they real small or are they like 60s style to the knee? No, no. They're big and trunky. Suspenders involves?

Always. Sure. Bring your swim trunks. That's my dad calls them swim trunks too. My dad made no adjustments raising two girls to any girl stuff at all. The thought of saying like something that covers your boobs is just like too much. No. No.

No, it couldn't happen. No. Trunks. Trunks. It's trunks or nothing. Get out. Don't go with nothing. Don't.

We have any. We definitely not be involved. The Jensen and Halls podcast is coming out starting Monday. This Monday. It's not an April Fool's joke. This is fucking straight up real. It's real. It's fucking crappening.

Dreams up in you. Dude, come true. There you go. For me and you. Don't. Paul Halls is boss. Don't. Kind of.

Don't worry about it. Sorry, Contra Costa County. You're out and we're in. You couldn't keep him. We grabbed him. Yeah. But we got him. Yeah.

Yes. Billy Jensen and Paul Halls have their brand new podcast, the Murder Squad with Jensen and Halls starting Monday. Days away. Yeah. How many? Four days? Let's say four.

Let's say it's four. It's not an April Fool's joke. It's for real. It's true. Yeah. Not about this. Not about this. Not about these two.

And we really have to. We need to sit for a moment and speak on the beautiful photograph they had taken of themselves for. It's so hilarious. It's like they've been waiting all their lives to be podcast models. They're like, we know our pose. Robin Von Swank, our friend is a photographer. Just take it.

Yeah. Just take it. How about you dim those lights in this fake Murder Squad desk area. And we'll look serious. Yes. It's so... There's something for everyone. It's like the poetry girls can like Billy because he's the guy that looks like he's in

a band. And then the librarian girls can like Paul because he's the DNA scientist with a little something more to offer. And then the sleuths can help solve the crimes. That's right. You don't have to pick a boy. Yeah. That's not necessary.

We're not trying to objectify anyone here. You are? Yeah. We are. And they can have a minute of... They can have a touch of sexism. Look. And just be like, hey, it'll make you...

It's better for your character. It worked for us all these years in Hollywood. Yeah. Show me a little skin. Yeah. Billy. Unbutton a third button. Billy.

Come on. It'll make you just like more friendly. Show a little skin. Can you both wear... It's fine if you wear your button down Oxford shirts, but how about you both wear short shorts for this loose... Gain five pounds in your beard. Gain five pounds of beard.

Yeah. And let's fucking... And you'll look great. Beard. Yeah. Because you know, like, it's like loose five pounds. And it's like, no, get your beard. Yeah.

That's right. No. You're saying this is what the new sexism is. Yeah. I love it. Well, where's your beard? I want you to look like a bartender. Yeah.

Or a mixologist. Can you not grow a beard? Oh, sorry. You didn't get the part. Yeah. Sorry. Go get a beard and plant. Sorry.

We need you to be bald like Jean-Luc Picard. Oh, you can't be bald? Well, then I guess you don't get the part. Man, goodbye. Man. Do you have anything? Man. Man.

I got nothing, girl. I can't concentrate. That Janet thing was all I had. And I've been saving it. It took me everything not to tell that to you at the live shows last weekend. You really, you scrolled that one away. I scrolled it away. It's been hard.

I don't know where we are. I don't know where we are. I don't either. I'm tired. But also, we had such a good time. Yes. We did Kansas City, Des Moines, and Omaha. I almost said Ottawa.

I swear to God. Don't you dare. Omaha. A week before that, we did Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh. We did Pittsburgh. Sinsey. Cincinnati.

And Indianapolis. And Indianapolis. So we're doing some, we're doing some, you know, touring. We're doing touring. Yeah. We've been tired and exhausted, but like those cities were so much fun to do. And everyone was so incredible that it's back to back. Yeah.

Each one, like honestly, we were putting up, you know, the social media posts of thank you, but like there were so many good, like detailed things where I wanted to like each city could have gotten their own long 240 character. Thank you because we had such a good time. Yeah. And it was beautiful and all those theaters are beautiful and filled. Yeah. This is just a, this is like a little piece of trivia that I know.

For a fact, my father would be loved to hear. Did I tell him? I'm not sure. But at our show in Omaha, every seat was filled. And apparently that doesn't happen. It sounds like, oh yeah, of course, whatever. But it's very rare that every single person actually shows up and fills their seats as someone with annoyingly good vision who can see about 20 rows out.

Yeah. And I see those four empty seats and wonder who got in a fight with him or who's fucking car broke down. You're stuck in the elevator. You're stuck in the elevator. I see it and I think what happened to them or like, yeah, so that actually is a big deal in it. Can we talk about you thinking that there was a real live cat in the audience?

Yes. That was great. What was that? Was that Kansas City? Yeah. That was amazing. I thought. This girl held up this life-like fur animal of Elvis and held it in a way that looked

like the way you'd hold a cat. Steven knows. Yes. And it was a stuffed animal, but the way the animal was shaped, it was hunched over her hand. So the second I looked over, she held it up and everyone started clapping and like. It was a very like Lion King-esque moment. And Karen was like disgusted by it and I was like, what are you talking about?

It's adorable. I do not bring a cat into this situation. They don't. Imagine the screaming. Like, all I could picture was that whoever's arm was holding that cat up was probably underneath covered in blood because that cat would have been scrambling to get out of there at the applause part. It was a stuffed animal.

In the whole time it was a stuffed animal. And then in the meet and greet, we met the girl and she was saying, I dressed up as you. We, the two women who were there said we dressed up as you for Halloween and the woman holding the cat. I keep wanting to say girl, holding the cat said, and I had this made so I could be like you. And then she- And then she handed it to you.

And Georgia said, thank you and he grabbed it and hugged it and I watched the girl's face fall. Georgia was over the moon and this girl was like, oh no, I have to keep it. And Karen goes, I don't think she's giving that to you. Then I went, oh God, oh God, oh God. And it was, I had to step in only because that thing looked expensive and she looked, she was just like, okay, like if somebody's going to take it, what are you going to do? So I had to a little bit do that.

It was so humiliating. It was bad. But then I told my balloon story because it's the exact same thing of when I thought a girl was bringing me a bouquet of balloons after I recorded my album back in the green room. But she was just the girl on the next show bringing some balloons for the show. What'd she say? These aren't for you. I like an insane prom queen turned her and went, oh thank you, this big over the top.

And she just pulled them back toward herself and went, these are mine. Everything hurts all the time. It all hurts. I'm always wrong. There's moments of happiness in this life, but the majority of it. There's a lot of wrongs. Weird wrongness. Weird grabbing at things that you don't, like you don't want to go on the record as I tried

to steal that girl's cat. But at the same time. We all have those stories. In that moment, you just thought that was what was happening. Yeah. And you went with it. Yeah. And fuck everyone else.

And you know this is personal. Guess what? We have passions. Strong, balloon, cat passions. I have the real Elvis and that's good enough for me. But then you would love a stuffed one. I would actually love a stuffed one. I mean, it was so real that I thought someone held up a real cat at a comedy show.

Yeah. It was probably like $500, as you said. Men's. Okay. Well, I'm happy for her. Well, I hope she's happy. I really hope she's happy. I would like to special shout out.

Okay. Because at that same, oh no, sorry, I was going to say at that same show, but that's not true at all. It was days later at the Omaha show in the meet and greet. We got to meet Grandma Cheryl. These two girls, women, young women, brought their grandma, they went and got her sprung her from the home on a Sunday to bring her to the live, my favorite murder podcast. Why you would do that to your grandmother?

I don't know, but they did it. And she was in the meet and greet, came around that corner, the girls explained, we just got her. And then Grandma Cheryl looked at me and goes, I'm missing Sunday night bingo for this. And I almost like ugly sobbed on her because she was a classic grandma. And you go, you said, what do we owe you a dollar 50? And she goes, actually four dollars or like four. And I grabbed her hands and they felt like my grandma's hands that soft.

She was wearing like a cardigan sweater that was a sweater my grandma had for sure. It was just like, it was like going back in time. It was the most beautiful to those young women who brought Grandma Cheryl. You brought us the best gift ever. And then they sent a picture on Twitter. And then afterwards I said, Grandma Cheryl made me, made us cry with joy. And they said, she can't wait to tell all of her friends at their rest home about her evening room.

Like, please leave some stuff out. Please don't tell all of them everything. Grandma. It was beautiful. We had a great, great time. Yeah. We had a really nice, cool town. Every town.

Yeah. Who knew Des Moines was like the fucking coolest town? Who knew? I want to hang out there. I want to hang out there. Their shirts are great. Yeah. They had some, they had a store, a local store called Rayground that was making SSDGM, like

stay at, it was get a job, buy your own shit, stay out of the cornfield. And they donated all the money from that to, and the backlog was like $1,400. Yes. Fucking amazing. Yes. The money we're mouth is, et cetera. Yes. They do in it.

The Des Moines Murdering Outs, if they have a special name, we don't know what it is. Sorry. But I mean, like, so many people got those shirts. It was just, it was awesome. We had a great time. Yeah. We're having fun. A couple more months to go.

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Hey, I'm Arisha. And I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva, Whitney Houston. Whitney's voice defined a generation, and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain.

In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva, we'll tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Who goes first based on what? Karen goes first based on Indianapolis. Boom.

Wait. Oh. Are you okay? I'm fine. Are you okay? There's too many microphones. Wait, are we doing based on, okay, so what we played last week? It's like based on what the audience knows, I think, right?

Yeah. That's the best way to do it. Okay. That's reality. Listen, look, we're just swimming. Now, it's interesting because this was one of the stories I wanted to do when we were in Cincinnati, which was even further back, right? Mm-hmm.

Was it? I don't know. Okay. Don't be mad at me. Cincinnati. Cincinnati was. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. So I had this ready and then I was like, don't do this tonight because that would be bad. It's the 1979 Cincinnati concert disaster. Oh, no. Yes. Yes. Now, I'd heard of this only because as a child, I watched the television show WKRP

in Cincinnati. Yeah. And they actually did an episode referencing it. Pulled from the headlines. Yeah. Or rips from the headlines. Usually rips. Sometimes.

Gently chugged. Gently cut out with safety scissors from the headlines. But so that's, I knew the general concept of it, but now I tell you what happened. Please do. Okay. It's September, 1979. Here we are. Here we are.

Jimmy Carter is the president. Hi. This is the energy crisis. Everything is brown and velour and acoustic and smells like bad pot. Turn your lights off. All right. Turn your lava lamp on. Turn your lava lamp on and your lights off.

And put your formalities on and get ready. So yeah, the children of today have to remember this is before obviously the internet. It's before everything to the point where at one point they're talking about the ticketing situation. Oh, yeah. Do you remember the company Ticketron? No. That was like the original, um, Ticketmaster.

Yes. Thank you. I would have never. Wow. I had half of it and I would have never been able to say that. Um, Ticketron, that's where the Ticketron and the, um, the letters were in like digital number pieces. Ticketron?

Was it like, Ticketron? Ticketron. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Green pieces. Everything is robotic. But you, but nothing was robotic. Nothing. I would go to a window and show up and be like, yes, I'd like to go see the who.

I did that until like 2000 because it was cheaper. I'd go to a window, buy tickets to whatever fucking shitty cons like bands I wanted to see. Oh, is that how you do it with like no fee or something? Yeah. Yeah. So apparently that was the only way you could do it, Ticketron style in, uh, the 70s. I'm sure there are other ways.

Please. I don't want to hear about that. We don't care. I'm sure that you could call up on fucking Western Union and get your tickets. 888. All these different. You could go to Times Square somehow and get tickets anywhere. You could show up at the concert.

But we're just trying to let the, uh, the young folks know what it used to be like. Harder. It was walking, a lot more walking, a lot, that's why everybody's shoes were much thicker on the bottom. That's not true. Okay. So the who are on a world tour, it's December of 1979. The who are on their world tour and they land in Cincinnati, Ohio to play the riverfront

Coliseum for December 3rd. There are 18,348 tickets available. The show sells out entirely. Holy shit. Okay. They're doing some of my favorite murder numbers. Now they are not. Congratulations.

The who. The who? The who. Uh, the majority of those tickets, 14,770 of those tickets are sold as general admission for 10 bucks. Jeez. They're going to go see the fucking who for 10 dollars and today's dollars is, um, 100 and let's say it's 110 and 11 great 110 and 1150.

So, but they called this, the general admission was festival seating, which usually the term festival seating was used for outdoor concerts and like, like outdoor arenas where you could there were no seats. And you'd just be like, yeah, here's your ticket. You go in, it's festival seating. It's first come, first serve. Okay. But at the riverfront auditorium, they did festival seating and that meant that you

would show up, you would get let in and then you'd have to run for your spot. Like it was like a seat. Yes. So whether you wanted to sit or stand, like if you wanted to be one of those people that was right up against the front, you had to get there early and you had to run to the front. I don't want to do that. You'd know.

So this is, this is problem A and there's, we're going through the alphabet twice on this. No, not really. Also, the riverfront Coliseum was known for its lack security and safety standards, which I think is how everything was in the 70s. But two years before Led Zeppelin had played there and about a thousand people showed up without tickets and then they just gate crashed, they fucking like attacked the ticket takers through bottles and garbage and the cops and then they threw cops, they threw cops at ticket

takers. It's not right. Just little cops though, those little ones. They basically were able to, so a thousand people showed up to do that 70 got arrested. So 930 people got into that Led Zeppelin concert for free. And they still played shit. Yes. It's 10 bucks, 1970s kids.

Yeah, but they didn't have anything. I get it. I get it. They just didn't have anything. Yeah. So, and basically it was that kind of thing where they knew they could, they could do it. I mean, there was people that would just go up and push the ticket taker side and run

in and then like, you can't get caught. So knowing that that had already happened and also a local radio station had announced that the general admission ticket holders were going to be led in at three. So all basically there was the, the feeling was in the air and people started showing up for an eight o'clock concert, seven o'clock doors at 1230 in the afternoon. Now take a nap. Right. Well, they, so they basically are there, most of them are there for eight hours.

Yeah. It's December. No. In Ohio. No, no. So it's in like, it's in the thirties that day. So it's like rock and roll parking lot with snow with, yeah, like freezing and, and basically people who are kind of like, it's, it's this, this kind of ticketing where it's every man

for himself. Yeah. Like it's, it's kind of like a Black Friday feel where everyone's like, but the flat screen TV is just the wonderful sounds of quadrophenia and the who, and the, and the housewife is the teenager who's hopped up on natty light. Yeah. That's right. And ready to roll.

And, and, uh, black beauties and reds and all the things down, you can get, you used to be able to get all those pills in the back of Rolling Stone magazine. You know that, right? Oh yeah. You could like mail away for like bad speed, essentially, let's bring those times back. Okay. So about one 30, um, in the afternoon, the head of rock promotion for electric factory, there's a company called, uh, it's a promotional company called electric factory.

Um, and this guy's named Cal Levy. He sees that this crowd is gathering at the main entrance. He goes and asks the river front Coliseum operations director who's a guy named Richard Morgan to put some security guards out there and all the ramp entrances leading to the Coliseum's Plaza. And they also asks that the guards make sure only ticket holders come into the, into that Plaza. Um, so they just don't want people like chilling out there.

He also notices there's no police officers anywhere. And so he asks Morgan to send, have some police sent to the venue. So by four o'clock, there's 25 police officers that are kind of manning the area. And by six o'clock, the crowd outside the Coliseum is almost to 8,000 people. Holy shit. Yes. And so they, I think there was another misunderstanding. They were going to play quadrophenia, the movie quadrophenia before the concert as the, instead

of an opening act, they were just going to play that movie. So everyone, I think in the beginning thought it was going to be this like hangout chill for hours beforehand, but the doors wouldn't open. And um, there was some, that, that was like a miscommunication. So by six 15, people are up, you know, day turns tonight, the temperatures are dropping. There's a wind chill factor coming off the Ohio river and these people have been waiting some for eight hours to get in. So, um, so the crowd is, and the crowd is thinking, expecting that all the doors in

front of the venue are going to open. So at six 15, the people in the back start pushing toward the front, like, and people are knocking and they're like, want, they want the doors to open. And the people in the back don't realize that what they're doing to the people in the front. Okay. This is one of my fucking nightmares and why I don't leave the house if I don't have to. Right.

To get caught up in shit like this. It's just to get caught up in shit. Yes. And this especially is like rough. Yeah. Okay. It's bad. And it's also that thing where people wouldn't have done it in the back had they known what

was happening. So the whole thing was a really bad miscommunication on all parts, but it was like people left to their own devices. Like, um, what is it called when a little fire thing happens and then the rest of it a wild little kindling. Oh, yes. And they wouldn't, and it turns into something bigger because everyone's reacting to everyone else.

Yeah. And normally if they had known the situation, they would not have acted that way. Right. And there was, they were holding fast to some rules. So like at one point there, so in that pushing people are yelling open the fucking doors and they're going one, two, three push and like moving the crowd, it's like stuff like that. Yeah.

So the guy that was in charge, Lieutenant Dale Menkhaus, who was, who was basically the cop in charge of all the cops, he gets ahold of good old Richard Morgan and says, you have to start open some of these doors so that this like crowd can disperse a little bit. Yeah. So no one's getting in until soundcheck is over. And of course, soundcheck is late because the band is late. So it's, you know, it's 6.30, the doors are supposed to open like General Admission at

seven and they don't open at seven because the band hasn't soundchecked yet. But people on the outside, nobody is explaining anything to anybody. So when seven passes, people like then people are getting angry and like people are getting a little crazy. There was actually the way everyone was jam packed together and like kind of the frenzy of the crowd. There was a steam coming off of the crowd because it was so cold outside, there was like all this heat.

Yeah. I know. So, so they're not going to open the doors right until soundcheck. So at 7.05, they finally decide, okay, we should open some doors, but they don't open a bunch. They just open two doors over on the right, way over on the right. So that means all the people that thought they were in the front, that are in front of all the other doors see that now they're in the back maybe because they're not close

to the far right doors. And that's when it gets up another notch. So so the push starts and people are now people are shoving toward that door even harder. And then and and the other doors, so there's four doors open, two of them are blocked by cops with Billy clubs. So they're trying to like somehow can control. They think I think by only opening a couple doors, people are just going to go in calmly. Yeah.

Well, even if that plan that there are too many people for that even to work at all anyway. And then at 7.30 soundcheck starts. Also they think the band is starting. Yes. They fucking think the concert started so they can hear it. And all of a sudden the huge push happens. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And a general admission ticket holder want there was an article that was written from the POV of this guy who was there that day. His name is Richard Klopp. And he and his wife got there like little before three so that they could get their spot in line. And he's big. He went to a lot of shows, big music fan.

Okay. So he had actually written a letter to the Electric Factory, which is a promotional company, the Riverfront Coliseum and to the city of Cincinnati telling them that this whole thing a festival seating had to go because he'd been at enough shows where it had gotten all fucked up. Because it's just like a free for all. Yes. Because there is a thing where it's like, you know, you have these two seats, they're

your seats and you know they'll be there no matter what when you get in. Yes. And it's so it doesn't matter when you come. Right. Like that. That's understandable. Yeah. And if you, like if you bought a $10 ticket, but you know that if you can just run fast

enough. Yeah. You have a front row ticket. Oh, yeah. So it's like saying, it's like going who's the biggest fan. Yeah. And if you have people that get stuck in the back or they think they've figured out their spot and then they're, they're suddenly they're in the wrong spot.

I mean, that's how it's like the perfect storm of inciting people's yeah, like anger and theory and, and then not to mention people are on drugs or we decided we'd take some acid at four o'clock. I mean, like who the fuck knows what's going on. So this guy, Richard Klopp, who is six foot two and weighs over 200 pounds, gets shoved to the ground and he is down there getting walked on and going, I can't believe this thing that I was writing a letter about is actually happening to me. That truly terrifies me.

It's horrifying. And he's separated from his wife. You know, this happened to me. We went to see the Pogues. I was just talking to this with my friend Brian on Twitter on St. Patrick's Day. We were talking about, I went to see the Pogues on St. Patrick's Day when I was a senior in high school and the opening act was Luca Bloom, who is this awesome Irish acoustic singer-songwriter and then the Pogues walk out and they fucking start off their concerts

with if I should fall from grace with God, which is this insane Irish like real. And I got sucked backwards into a mosh pit, spun around once and then thrown out to the side. My feet were never on the ground. I just got, I was standing there like, yeah, this thing's gonna, and all of a sudden it was like I was in the washing machine. My first two concerts were at this fucking shitty, uh, divey place where there was a pit and yeah, if you wanted to watch the band, you'd get sucked into it.

Yes. Yeah. That was just part of being in the front. Right. Yeah. And if you, I mean, I had no idea. No. Cause I was like, oh, it's this Irish music like my parents like.

Yeah. I was like, no, no, no. There's some, there's some angry fucking men who want to run around. Yeah. Just throw punches. Yeah. But also run around. I just didn't realize in such a tight group you could do that.

Yeah. And that was like part of it. It was insane. So anyway, he was basically, uh, he, he and his wife were separated. He smashed to the ground. He had injuries, but luckily he wasn't killed. So as he is, it's, he's trying to get up. He can see there's other people trying to get up and he can see there's people who are,

since they're up, are trying to get up over the doors to get away from, to get out of that crowd that essentially it's like become this weird machine and the people that are pushing and the people that are walking, no one knows that people are on the ground being trampled. Yeah. Cause they're probably being like pushed forward like a wave anyway. Yes. Yeah.

Exactly. And it's all, yeah, it becomes like it's not about your personal will. Right. Um, yeah. So there were people who were there that said that they saw bodies piling up by the doors. Um, they saw people trying to get to their feet. They saw people being swept just by the crowd, but no one really knew because basically then once they were in, everyone was running to get to the front.

Yeah. And everybody was realizing, oh, that, you know, like this, the concert hasn't started or whatever. So then it was kind of like that basically the concert went on as planned and everybody just went in and watched the who play. It's not until seven 45 that the police officers find the first dead body on the ground. So it's because also the police are around the back. They're basically kind of on the outside of this thinking that people are going to try

to get in from other ways. Yes. Or like, or they're just not, they're focusing on, on like people being rowdy and making sure a riot doesn't start because that's essentially what happened at that Led Zeppelin concert. They, they just want to make sure it's not a riot. Yeah. And so they're looking at the wrong thing and they don't, they not even noticing that

there's people on the ground. So yeah, it's not until 754 that officers find the first body. Then they, so then now officials are starting to realize the severity of the situation. They call for help. So then ambulances are brought in the fire department, more police than reporters show up on the scene. And so now we cut to a fancy restaurant in Cincinnati because what are we doing here? This is the first day of the mayor.

It's his first day on the job. Oh, shit. His name's Ken Blackwell. He's having dinner with house speaker, Tip O'Neill. And he gets the call. The shit is going down at the riverfront, call us again, bring a fucking telephone to his table. Mayor, sir, mayor, sir, this is the longest cord we could find.

And yeah, so he has to go down there and basically they have to decide when he arrives, they decide, do we, do we end this concert, do we pull the plug now? But he believes and the fire marshal agrees with him that if they then pull the plug, there will be a riot for sure. So they let the concert go as planned. So at 845, a promoter named Larry McGidd informs the who's manager, Bill Curbishly, that four concertgoers are confirmed dead. And he tells them there were two ODs and two crushed.

That's the story. For some reason, the fire marshal was under the impression that there was a mass overdose at the beginning of this concert. And they were like, people I think were trying to like, oh, oh, they, those, they were partying and they were doing drugs and these rock and roll kids. I've done this to themselves. That was what they were kind of trying to do. It sounds like it first.

He quickly learns though that none of the deaths are drug induced. They were all due to trampling and asphyxiation from being in that crowd. So when the set is over, the Curbishly, the who's manager pulls them aside and says, make your encore as short as possible because something has happened. So they basically go out, do their encore, get off stage. And finally, once they come off from the encore, they're informed that 11 people have died. 11 people were killed in that, in that stampede and another 26 were injured. So in the weeks following the concert, there were arguments over who is to blame.

The media reports pointed the finger at like rock and roll culture or whatever, saying it was drugs, alcohol and general rowdiness. But the people at the concert were just like, no fucking way. They planned this so badly. Yeah. The reason why I thought this was bad planning and that idea of like holding the doors, that they were going to be able to control an 8,000 person crowd who was being, who made, who were made to wait all day and not communicated with in any way.

There was no safety set up or communication in any way. So Pete Townsend is apparently in the subsequent shows they did, Pete Townsend's visibly shaken. The only person who speaks on it is Roger Daltry and he basically is, says there are no words to say how I feel. I'm a parent. I have a boy who's 15. I have two little girls and all I can say is I'm sorry for what happened.

I mean, you know, they felt fucking terrible. But I think there was also that thing of like that they were just the, the object of all of that and had nothing to do with crowd control or the way the tickets were sold. And the next night's show was in Buffalo, New York, and it was dedicated to those who died in Cincinnati. Safety measures that might have once been considered unnecessary are now implemented like going forward. Like immediately.

Yeah. That's great. So of course the families of the victims who were trampled sue the city of Cincinnati, the who and the electric factory concerts. And in 1983, all those suits were settled and the families of each of the deceased received a six figure payout, which was something around $150,000 at the time. And the people who were injured received a smaller although substantial payouts as well. The mayor of Providence, Rhode Island canceled the who's performance that was later that

month, December of 1979, despite the fact that Providence had only a sign seating and there was no chance that that could have happened. Rhode Island is a very careful place. They just won't risk it. But this is what I love, 33 years later, the who returned to Providence and honored the tickets from 1979. So if you bought one and you didn't get to go, you could go for free that night. Yes.

That's beautiful. I know, isn't that nice? And then on December 27th, so the same month that it happened, the city of Cincinnati banned festival seating with very specific exceptions and the ban stood for 25 years. It was repealed very controversially in 2004. Wow. Yeah. Probably for fucking Justin Timber.

I was going to say Lala Palooza. Lala starring Justin Timberlake. Yeah. Sorry, Justin Timberlake. And then basically, because WKRP in Cincinnati was a sitcom about a radio station obviously in Cincinnati and they were all about, this was back before you had to pay for every needle drop on every TV show and all of those. Every song you hear on TV shows now, people get paid for and rightfully so.

But back then, WKRP, they played Steely Dan, they played music throughout that show just in the background. Yeah. And so, kind of almost like with respect to that, they had this episode which were basically a similar thing happens and they, at the end of it, dedicate that episode to the victims of the 1979 Who Stampede. A very special episode. Yeah.

There's a website I got a bunch of this information from, aside from Wikipedia, there was a website called ultimateclassicrock.com that talked all about it and they did an article specifically about the WKRP episode. And I think you have to buy WKRP on DVD to watch any of it, but I liked this quote. They said still, because they were talking about how hard the balance of it, it was a straight up sitcom and then they're dealing with a very special episode. But they did it perfectly, they did stuff like that a lot and they were really good at it.

But the quote is still, if the in concert episode stands for nothing else, it at least has the honor of saying this, 35 years ago when things got real, right in the backyard of its fictional setting, WKRP and Cincinnati did not flinch. And they really didn't. And the guy that wrote it had to fight with the showrunner about it and then they decided to do it. And then the network was like, we don't think we should do this. So the actual episode ended up airing February 11th, 1980.

So it was like two, you know, a month and a little later in 2015, a memorial marker was finally placed outside the what's now called the US Bank Arena for the victims whose lives were lost that night. And it was paid for entirely by individual donations. So it was it was a crowd sourced memorial. And so the people who died in the stampede on December 3rd, 1979 are Walter Adams, Jr. who was 22. He was from Trotwood, Ohio, Peter Bose, who was 18 from Wyoming, Ohio, Connie Sue Burns,

who was 21 from Miami's Berg, Ohio, Jacqueline Eckerly, who was 15 from Finney Town, Ohio, David Heck, who was 19 from Highland Heights, Kentucky, Tiva Ray Ladd, who was 27 from New Town, Ohio, Karen Morrison, who was 15 from Finney Town, Ohio, Estefan Preston, who was 19 from Finney Town, Ohio, Phillip Snyder, who was 20 from Franklin, Ohio, Brian Wagner, who was 17 from Fort Thomas, Kentucky, it's heartbreaking, and James Warmoth, who was 21 from Franklin, Ohio. Such little babies. They're all babies who just went to have fun.

Yeah. It's, I just think about how scary those last moments had to have been like, I definitely, this is one of those ways that you think about dying, you know, if you're obsessed with that shit. Well, and that idea that like, because we've all seen like the Black Friday videos where right, if you go down in a crowd like that, the only way you come back up is if someone looks out for you. It's a wave.

And it's not even. It's not even everyone else's fault. It's this like wave of humans that have no control over that. Right. Because they're being pushed to. Right. It's like that. Yeah.

It's like, it's, it's so awful. It's so, it's worst case scenario. It's horrible. This is why I didn't want to do it on a live show, but I didn't want to do it because it's like, yeah, it's one of those disasters that's like the preventable. And now they know that, you know, but those ways were like how preventable disasters, how things, why things are the way they are. And like bad decisions based on money too.

Yeah. Or it's like just at that point, open the doors and let everyone in because it's dangerous otherwise. Yeah. You know, and it's instead of the $10 you would have gotten from however many people who didn't have tickets, it's like, you know, just let them in. Yeah. Because everyone needs help.

Right. And, and the idea that I think people understand now, it's like, if you're going to have a concert with, you know, 18,000 people, you got to get some staff. You can't have three people at the one door way over on the right, like everything has to be prepped for safety first, which I think they know now, you know, it seems like that. But I just want to say I was nine at the time and fucking no one gave a shit about safety when I was nine years old. No, they didn't.

They really didn't. Took a long time. Yeah. Well, that was amazing. I mean, fuck dude. Yeah. It's a heavy one, but I just was like, oh, it's such a, I wanted to do it that night so bad, but I was also like, how awful would it be to sit in a theater and be like, uh-huh,

what else happened the night that named their people? Yeah. It, it's, it's, I guess it's the same thing with like the name of this podcast where I want to be, I want to be like, I love that stories like that. Right. But really I love them. It's like, it's my favorite because I hate it. Yes.

But it's, I'm fascinated by that shit. Because also it's like, you're right. Those times that you're like, I don't like this feeling in this crowd. I don't like, I need to get over to the side and you think, oh, I'm crazier. I have this anxiety. You're right because you shouldn't, you have to be careful in big crowds. You have to be careful and you can't just trust that everything's going to go great. No, I get, yeah.

I get really freaked out in crowds like that. Yeah. In any crowd. Watch your friends, watch your back, watch your friends back, watch your back's friends. Don't be afraid to walk into the concert a little bit late. You heard that fucking song before? Oh my God. Don't worry.

That sounds the same on a radio. That's amazing. All right. That was great. Thank you. Good job. It has to be told. Shutting down.

Shut down. Shut down and rest and sit down and sink down and let me tell you a story. I love it. Okay. So this is a story I found when I was searching, when I was searching for a story to do when we go to St. Louis. Oh, okay. In the future.

Yes. This is incredible. I have to do it now. How have I never heard of this? Okay. Wow. That's really saying something that you can't wait for the, okay, it's like the opposite of yours.

Yes. Okay. This is Glennon Engelman, the killer dentist. What? That's right. So I found a lot of information from an Oxygen article. Remember FBI files? I totally forgot about that.

Yes. FBI files, an episode called Deadly Dentist, a show on ID, that show was called Deadly Dentists. Oh. And this, and the episode was called Concealed Abscess. I've had those. Oh, that reminds me, I need to make an appointment. You gotta go.

Well, this will make you not want to go to a dentist anymore. All right. Let me tell you about Glennon Engelman. He's born in St. Louis on the south side. He's a blue collar working class neighborhood in 1927, one of four children. His dad's a railroad worker, and then it says, and his wife, because that's his mom. That's right. The wife was a wife and a mom.

Yes. So Engelman. And a railroad engineer. That's right. Just don't worry about it. She made a mean pie. That's right. Engelman graduated from Washington University's dentist program in 1954.

He wasn't a great student. He did fine. I guess you can just pass dentists school without grades. Don't like that? Nope. It just sucks. I'd really like to only experience the best of the best when it comes to dentistry. Especially in 1954, when she was probably like fucking still medieval.

That's right. That was back before they hid the big needle behind their back. Yeah. And they're like, do you like big needles? Right. I have one. I have one. Let's make these teeth out of fucking elephant tusks.

Okay, sorry, but it does remind me because I was going to the dentist really regularly until this last season of baskets and then everything like shut down. But I am going back next week, but I haven't seen my hot dentist in so long. Yeah. What if everything's different now between us? I know. What if he's not hot anymore? What if he...

What if his teeth got replaced by toenails? Who? Javi Stoked? Or bummed? Or bummed, like he became bewitched for some reason. Little children's toenails. That's... No.

It'd be the cruelest thing to do to a dentist who knew the importance of hygiene. It's almost impossible. But that's going to happen again. I'd say it's almost impossible, but never say never. Okay. Okay. So, Glennon opens his own practice in his neighborhood where he grew up, St. Louis's Southside, as I said.

And so, everyone's like stoked that he's like sticking with the neighborhood. He's like, you know, one of us and et cetera. And he also treats his poorest patients for free a lot of times, so he's like generous and shit. However, don't like this guy yet because according to the book, Appointment for Murder, the story of the killing dentist by Susan Crane-Bacchus, he was a rabid racist, anti-Semite, and dabbled in the occult, mixing a voracious sexuality, the last two I can deal with. Any other shit?

I don't like. So his first marriage was to a student teacher named Edna Ruth Bullock, and it lasted three years. And after the divorce, he continued to give her money, and they still had sex, and she also continued to see him for dental care, which is like pick one, you know what I mean? But he was so great at all of them. He was just great at all. He was like mediocre at dental care, but who else are you going to go to?

That's right. And same with sex, but look, a lady doesn't have that much time. She knows you. You know what I mean? He knows your quirks. He knows how to explain how you come to some shit. You don't have to explain why you need your arm up at that certain angle all the time. It's just complicated.

So his ex-wife, Ruth, then marries a dude named James Bullock. He's a 27-year-old clerk studying to be an accountant, and he's also one of Dr. Engelman's patients. And then five and a half months after they get married, on December 17th, 1958, James Bullock is fucking randomly shot dead by a sniper in front of the St. Louis Art Museum. Oh my God. What? Right.

Ruth collects $64,000 in life insurance, which is $550,000 in today's money. Shit. Half a mill? Half a mill. And the investigators are like, investigators? The investigators are like, this is suspicious, and they look into Ruth's life. They discover that she has a wild side. She has exploits in local bars that are legendary, whatever the fuck that means.

Fuckin' tell me about it. Ask me about the rust again. I'll tell you. Just stand on the bar and lift up your skirt. You better have some exploits. So she sounds like a fun time gal. I bet she'd be awesome. But they question her, and then they're criticized by the harsh treatment of a grieving widow,

so they back off of her. But they also were suspicious of her ex-husband, Glennon, the dentist, but he has an alibi for the murder, so the killing goes cold. Five years later, in 1963, Glennon is now married to a librarian, and he comes up with another get-rich-quick scheme. He opens a drag racing strip. Cool. Which was all the rage back then.

Yes. A dude named Eric Frey, who would recently married one of Glennon's former girlfriends, becomes a partner in the business. He's like, drag racing, let me get in on this. Let's do this. Let's do it. But on September 26, 1963, as Eric Frey is helping Dr. Engelman with construction at the site, Frey somehow finds himself struck in the head with a rock and at the bottom

of a well that also happened to contain a large amount of dynamite, and then the whole fucking thing exploded. What? It's an accident. What? No, it's not. Wait. How do you...

First of all, this is starting to sound familiar. Really? Did I get this one already? Yes. I don't know. Well, the dynamite. The dynamite. There's always dynamite.

Wait. You've done this before. Are you serious? I was just trying to find the same one. Shit! Who did it? Me or Georgia? It was Pam Huff.

That must have been me. I was Pam Huff. So then it must have been you. I was like... It sounded really familiar. I was trying to find the emails from like 20... This was 20... When was this?

This was... I'm like shaking. God damn it! December 8th, 2017. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's two years ago. How am I supposed to go on? No!

Yes, go on. No, I'm not going to. Why not? Oh, Jesus. Do you think anyone remembers my version of this fucking shit? We have to leave all of this in. We never released an episode. We did never release it.

It was never released. Oh. Yeah. Oh, then we're fine. Please leave this in. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Wait, that's... I feel like Steven, you buried the lead on that. We never released the episode. It should have come out of your mouth first. Oh, my God. No, it's insane. I was like trying to go through... No.

How do we know? Well, listen, we need to attack Steven a little bit more before we get back in. Okay, Steven! How did you not know earlier today that I was going to do this? Steven, why didn't you tell her? The second... Here's what I love. You said it's a killer dentist and then someone got thrown into a well with dynamite.

And I still was like, I don't know, this sounds really... It's now coming back to me. I now vaguely remember you telling me this story. But why wouldn't I immediately be like... Because it's so... Being on stage, there's so much adrenaline. And then you go on and you leave. But this was a St. Louis one.

Yeah, it was the first time we were in St. Louis. Shit! But no one knows except for us and now everybody's listening. Like, this is fresh to them. Okay, great. And the people... Wait, do we perform it in St. Louis but just not release that episode? Yes.

Got it. So when we go to St. Louis in like three weeks, they're going to be mad at us. They're going to ask something to say. I got to bring it with a good one. Yeah. And that's fun though because then they'll be like, I remember doing this and that. Yeah. Don't do it in three years.

We're creating memories. Let me tell you some brand new shit. Okay. Please do. Fuck! He blew up. But wait a second. We've been waiting for this moment.

Yes, we have. We've been waiting for this moment. Either for us to do the same one, which is way less likely than for us to redo a fucking story. Yes. The amount of stories we've done live is vast and incredible. Expensive. Yes.

It's almost like, hey, listen. We're going to run out of murders one day. No, we're not. No, that's exactly. But I was like, this story is fascinating. How am I going to not do this? It's so good. Okay.

Tell me what you remember from this. Okay. I definitely remember the well with the dynamite. The well with the dynamite. How could you forget? The death is a real accidental. Dr. Glennon. Sorry.

That alone. Yeah, yeah. It's ruled accidental. He fell into a well. After his head got hit. Filled with dynamite. Right. You know how you do sometimes at a race track?

Yes. It happens. Yep. It could be hot dogs. It could be dynamite. This guy got unlucky. Do you want to get a stick of dynamite in a hot dog bun? Yes.

Because there's that. You could have that too. Is this fucking Tom and Jerry or what? Wait. Can I just say this? Sorry. This is a legit sidebar. Okay.

But that last pretzel I ordered when we were on the road. I just need to talk about it because I actually. In Omaha. I texted Adrian because it was so good. In Omaha you got a lot of pretzel. I ordered pretzel and there was a sauce that was Guinness cheese mustard sauce. Stop it. Did you take a shot of it?

Yeah. I drank it. I chugged it and then just ate the pretzel afterwards. No. It was the most delicious thing. God bless pretzels. All right. Sorry.

Well, let me tell you about Dr. Glennon, he collected an insurance settlement from his business partner because his business partner just accidentally died in a fucking well with dynamite. And he was somehow on the thing. Well, he was his business partner. Sure. So he collected the money with his ex-girlfriend who happened to be Fray's widow. And he gave her $25,000.

She put 16,000 of that into the Drag Race. Yeah. Remember this one? Yeah. This is just a reminder. But it went bankrupt in 1964. Yeah. Yeah.

I like the idea that this is all a very like, this is what the pink ladies did after high school. Yeah. It's what it feels like to me. You can't. Don't trust Dennis. I got it. I want to date a doctor or a Dennis, but then I got to stay in the drag racing arena.

Yeah. Like it's still cool and hip. He wears a leather jacket. Yeah. Okay. A decade passes as you know from the research you did for this story. I know nothing. Do you remember that he had a 24-year-old dental assistant named Carmen Miranda?

I didn't remember that her name was Carmen Miranda. Her name was Carmen Miranda. The doctor's older had known Carmen Miranda since she was a child. And she's like, look, doctor, I don't know what to do. I'm having some financial difficulties. And he's like, here's an idea. Why don't you marry someone, take out a life insurance policy on him, and I'll kill him for you.

And she's like, great. Let's do it. Really? Let's get out there in the open. Not right. Like right. Yeah. That was the point.

Eventually. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. But he, you know, he'd known her since she was a child. She's 24. He's older. He's probably manipulating her in a lot of ways.

And he said he knew it would work because he's done it before. Right. Remember, old fuck and dynamite friends. Yeah. It did work that time. It did. So she agrees and they find a dude named Peter Holm and she marries him and almost a year later after they get married in September 5th, 1976, Miranda, Carmen Miranda lures Holm

to a secluded location near Pacific, Missouri, and she stands next to him as fucking Engelman shoots him with a rifle in the fucking head. Whoa. And then she takes off running. How awful. So the grieving widow, Carmen Miranda, ends up with $75,000 in life insurance and she pays around $10,000 to her boss, Dr. Engelman. Wow.

So. Do you remember any of this? No. I'm shocked about the Carmen Miranda detail, not sticking. Where in the world did that bit of information go? I think it was replaced when I just watched all of the Sopranos. Oh, wait. Okay, good.

So in 1977, this Arthur Guzwell, he's 61 and his 55-year-old wife, Vernita, they're there. They have what seems like a breaking and entering burglary situation where they're shot and killed at their farmhouse near Edwardsville, Illinois. The cops think it's a home invasion robbery and their grieving son, Ronald, was a sole heir to their, to his parents' oil business and inherited a quarter of a million dollars. Okay. Which in 1977, money is.

$700,000. Great. Oh, you mean? I don't know. You tell me. It's probably a lot. It's probably a ton, actually. I would say it's $2 million.

$2 million. I bet it's $2 million. That's a lot of money. 17 months later, in March 1979, when Ronald Guzwell, he's shot and bludgeoned with a sledgehammer at his home. So he's the fucking heir to the fortune. And he's killed. And then he's killed.

His new wife, Barbara Guzwell Boyle, collects approximately $340,000 in life insurance. His body is found four days later after his murder in a car in an East St. Louis motel. His body is. Is it a car motel? No. His body is found four days after his murder in a car at an East St. Louis motel. And police go to his home to tell his grieving wife, Barbara, and she is hosing out the garage, which later turns out to be blood quote everywhere.

Oh, no. Guess what? She used to date. Her, uh, our friend, Dr. Glennon. Wow. Yeah. So the next victim is Sophie Marie Barrera. She's 59 years old.

She owned a dental lab and she had done some work for Dr. Glennon and he owed her $14,500 and she was threatening to take him to court. So he did the rational thing and blew her fucking car up while she was in it. That's right. Do you remember that? Jesus. The thing is, this is a, if you made a TV movie of it, no one would watch it because it makes no stop.

Oh, you want a bet? Oh, really? Oh, it crappens. Um, so in January of 1980, Sophie's car explodes as she starts it killing her. So police are like, all right, it's this fucking dude, but there was also a lot of mob activity going around then. So it kind of got lost in that, but police are connecting the dots. And they were sure that Dr. Ingleman was behind these killings.

So then his third wife also named Ruth comes forward and she's like, I'm a little freaked out because I've been hearing some rumors that he's trying to put a hit on me. And he, he told me some shit when I'm like a post-coital and they were like, great, will you wear a wire? And she was like, apps, a fucking lily. So in 1984, she wears a wire, he can, he tells her everything. Don't do that. Yeah, really?

So in 1984, Barbara Boyle is charged with her husband's killing, the one who was the heir to the shit. She's arrested. And a month later, Dr. Ingleman is finally arrested as his Carmen Miranda and their two accomplices, who is Miranda's brother, Nick, and a man named Robert Handy. So Miranda testifies against Dr. Glennon in his trial for Holmes murder. And that gets a guilty verdict and a 50 year sentence. And later, his trial for Barrera's bombing gets him life.

So in attempt to bargain for leniency, the, the accomplice Robert Handy offers police details about the Goosewell's murder. They're the home invasion robbery older couple. And so he said that Ingleman and Barbara Boyle, the wife of the son had been lovers and they had targeted Ronald because of his money. So like she married him to kill his parents and him. God damn. Yeah.

Um, I feel like that is, I'm remembering something about that the guy she married was kind of a bore. Or like there was like a little bit of like a thing about him where everyone's like, you're marrying this guy. Probably. There was a little bit of that. Yeah. Could that could just be me judging him though.

Absolutely. I mean, all these marriages that ended in the husband being killed were like just a plan for that. Yeah. So it could have been anyone, just someone you can convince to marry you. Isn't dating hard enough without thinking, what if someone's just setting me up for life insurance? Yes.

Ugh. Another thing I have to worry about. I have a good relationship and every once in a while I'm like, did he put poison in this tea? You're like, wait a second. I just got a Geico update. Yeah. What are you doing?

Why? I don't like geckos. I don't like geckos. I don't like fucking chamomile. Get the shit away from me. Get the shit away from me. Don't like being poisoned. And I don't like you killing me.

So. For money. Great. You can kill me for passion reasons. That's a compliment. Yeah. The money thing is cold. It really hurts my feelings.

Okay. In 1985, he, in order to strike a deal and avoid the death penalty, Dr. Ingeman pleads guilty to all three murders and is sentenced to three concurrent life sentences. When he confesses, he says, quote, I like to kill it sets a man apart from his fellow man. If he can kill. No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't.

Being a good dentist sets you apart. Yeah. That's more so than killing people. How about you are a decent human being that doesn't fuck every woman that passes your dental practice. Don't fuck every woman. Don't fuck and manipulate them into killing people. Don't.

You don't need the money. What's so weird about it too is like everyone's like, he's not doing it for money because he has a successful practice. Yeah. He's doing it because he's a fucking weirdo sports killer. Well, and also because he feels, I think it's actually kind of sad where he's like, this is what sets me apart. Yeah.

Not my interesting hair or my brain killing people. Right. Not my interest in a cult and blatant anti-semitism killing people. My anti-semitism isn't setting me apart the way I thought it would. I'm going to go ahead and go all the way into killing people. Okay. I mean, just change some crowns. Is that a thing?

I don't know. And they think it is. Changing crowns? Change them around. Change them up. So as for Barbara, she's convicted of Ronald's murder, her heir to the throne husband. Right. But with help from her attorney, Effley Bailey.

Yeah, that guy. Everyone's favorite dick lick motherfucker. He's a super champion. He sure is. She's cleared of the murder of his parents. Wow. And she gets 50 years, but serves less than half that time and is freed in 2009 at the age of 67.

And then she's like, I'm going to spend this money. Later days motherfucker. She's like, give me that money. Give me that money. Did she get any of it? I wonder. I bet she didn't. No, right.

Yeah. Yeah. It's probably went to like a niece. Only fair. Yeah. Only fair. Like a poor and sweet niece who's like, okay. Okay.

I guess I'll get all the roller skates I want. Yeah. And I'm going to rescue kittens. Aw. Aw. She's such a good person. And then she wastes it all on cats. Hey.

Just wasted. It's not a waste. It's for a cat. Okay. Here we go. In 1996, a B movie called The Dentist was made that is loosely based on the case Dr. Engelman is played by Corbin Burnson. Yes.

Okay. We talked about this part. Okay. What tell me? Because he's from LA Law. Yeah. And I was like, oh yeah. I was like, what is he from?

Shit. No. At this moment right now, we could be dead and this is just like life replaying itself in that weird way. I absolutely believe that. Yeah. And I went under general anesthesia yesterday. Yes.

Am I awake yet? Could be. You're still sleeping. I don't know. Are you awake? When you wake up, you're like, ugh. I dreamed that we recorded already. Now we haven't.

Oh shit. I should do The Dentist. The Killer Dentist. No, I'm going to. Maybe you're still getting a massage. No. Can I just say that I fell asleep? They said, she was like, all right, Karen, get up when you want to.

You know, when it's over. And I was like, okay, sounds good. And then I just put my face back in the ring and went back to sleep for I don't know how long. They let me stay in there. I mean, it wasn't that long. That's amazing. I mean, I was out, like had a short dream and then was like, whoa, whoa, I'm still here.

I woke myself up with a loud snore on the plane right home from Oma. A snort. I didn't hear it. You didn't? I was, I had my eye mask on and I went literally. And then I immediately started cracking up. I went, it was like so insane. I missed that.

Well, I had my earplugs in them. And that wasn't that loud then. But I absolutely did that. And then just started laughing. Yes. We're doing great. We're doing it and we're still doing it. Hey, let's talk about two years later from The Dentist and talk about The Dentist too.

Oh. Brace yourself. Oh, we have talked about this, but let's talk about it again. What did we say? Well, just, I just remembered that there was a sequel. How do I not remember this? Say drinking? Uh, no, I think it was just that we've done this a lot.

Okay. Let me, we'll hear something new. So I went to my, my favorite G-Mail to look for hometowns. Uh, Amy said, in the 70s, my dad had a plant store in the then dodgy part of St. Louis called Compton Heights. He was, parentheses is, a big old stoner. So he spent a lot of time smoking outside the shop, which is how he became acquainted with The Dentist who owned the shop next door.

Oh. Also possibly why his shop didn't last long, but I digress. At the time, The Dentist, Glennon Engelman, uh, had an assistant named, I shit you not, Herman Miranda, who had married an older guy who shortly thereafter wound up shot in the back of the head after having recently taken out a very high insurance policy at Miranda's suggestion. My dad says Engelman was the most terrifying person he'd ever met. Whoa.

From the time he'd come flying into my dad's shop in a rage, literally foaming at the mouth, shouting about whatever, super scary dude. Um, and then, then Kevin said, my mom grew up in South St. Louis County. My mom and her sister began working from an early age to help make ends meet. My mom landed a job as a hostess at a South County restaurant that had many loyal customers who ate their daily and knew the workers pretty well. She still gets recognized today by folks who went there in the 80s. Oh.

One of these regular customers was a local dentist who was charismatic, but odd. He once lectured my mom about respecting the history of coins. Then Kevin wrote strike one and was generally a difficult person to serve strike two and three. Yes. I bet. Yeah. He gave off a typical eclectic rich man vibes.

So most server's hosts will know the type of guy we're dealing with here. One day this dentist came into the restaurant and saw my mom, the hostess, puffy faced and crying. He asked her why she was so upset and she told him that she was worried about her mother after a car exploded that day near the South Side National Bank where she worked as a housekeeper. It was the 80s or it was a spike of mob crime, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The dentist told her that her mom should be safe because the car wasn't close enough to do any real damage to the bank.

He then reassured her that everything was okay, ate his meal and went his way. My mom later found out from the local news that the man in the restaurant, Dr. Glenninglman, was a dentist by day and a hitman serial killer by night. So basically my mother was consoled about the car explosion by the very serial killer who rigged the car to blow up in the first place. Holy shit. So he walks in, she's crying and he's like, your mom's fine. No, don't worry about it.

She wasn't the target. Yeah, no. Don't worry about it at all. Okay, so Dr. Glenninglman was 71 when he died of complications with diabetes in 1999 at the Jefferson City Correctional Center, as you know, since you've researched this. That's the part that stayed with me most. He had been diagnosed as a sociopath while locked up and it was reported this IQ was near 140, which is high.

He showed no remorse for anything. Yeah, his killing spree lasted for 30 years from 1958 to 1980 and altogether he's suspected in 12 killings. Jesus. But if it hadn't been for his brave third ex-wife, Ruth Jolly, with whom he had a son, it could have been many fucking more. That's right. And that is the second time we are telling the story of Glenninglman the killer dentist.

Second time but only first wide scale. Right. First time was a select audience. A test audience. That's right. In St. Louis. We tested it. They were like, it's fine.

We're not going to remember it. It's not, nobody's marking down any of these moments. Wait, there's canned wine for sale in the lobby. Let's party. Let's get another canned wine. We've been pre-gaming with the murderinos. We raised money. Let's game.

Then let's post-game. That's right. Let's drink the whole time. Yeah, I think that was great. Thank you. I'd love to go back to the part about falling into a well-filled TNT. The part is don't do it. Yeah, do your best not to.

But if someone hits you in the head with a rock, what are you going to do? You've got to do what you've got to do. Fucking dentist, man. You said it. Don't go back to your dentist. No, do it. Then all my TNTs just start falling out slowly as we talk. Why do you have children's toenails in your mouth?

Is that a new thing? Children's toenails. I don't know why. Is it clear? Is it what you think of when you look at my teeth? No. Oh, that's like a disease child's foot. It's like the thing that's closest but clearly not.

And you're like, why does that look? Oh, God. No. It's child toes and an adult mouth. That's awful. We got to tell Guillermo del Toro about that idea. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Fucking hooray. Yeah. My fucking hooray is that. That it's over? Do you have a fucking hooray? I may have mistakenly done my fucking hooray of talking about my two hour massage at the top, but you know what it is, here's what my fucking hooray will be.

First of all, and this is going to sound super corny and cheesy, but we had in that last weekend of shows, the most fun talking to people at the meet and greets to the point where a couple of times Vince had to say, hey, look, the line, we still have a whole line of people. You guys have to move it along. Yeah. Because we love the conversations that we have with people and talking to people and just like connecting with people.

So we oftentimes will complain about like being tired or complain like that we're doing a bunch of stuff. But to me, I would say my fucking hooray is those people, people that come and say hi or that, you know, that are at the meet and greet that come around that corner and they tell us really private things or they just tell us, what about those women who are like, we all met at the Chicago show at the Red Vic. Like three years prior. Yeah, they were standing in line by each other to get into the Chicago show.

They're still friends to this day. What was that at the Kansas City show? I think they showed up as a four-some going, we met in line and now we're all still great friends. Like we have these kind of peak experiences that we're having so many of them. It's hard to appreciate them. Sort of process right now. Yes.

Because we're in the middle of it and we can't stop. We have to keep going forward. Yes. We've got it too much. It's a lot. It's a lot. To process. But it's a series of Grandma Cheryl's and it's a series of the women from the Chicago

who met in line at Chicago and they're still friends to this day. And the women who come by themselves to the live shows. Yes. Can I, I'm going to jump on your. Do it. Van Wraggen. Get into it. I was thinking about it recently about how hard 27 was for me and 28 and 29 and 30 and 31.

And now it took me a while and I didn't, you know, I didn't have a lot of friends and you kind of like, you need these, a community and you don't have one. I was like post break up and shit. And it's the murdering community is this community that I wish I had had then. Yeah. And instead of being bummed about not having that, I'm just so happy that we've made this and they've made this thing that they can have now. Yeah.

I mean, I would have benefited so much from it. And so I'm benefiting in a different way, but I'm just so happy it exists. It's amazing. And to kind of see it in real life, like that's all, it sounds, it's stuff that like you can't believe until someone's telling you to your face. Yeah. Our friend that we saw in Omaha who the first time we met her was in a meet and greet and she was about to get the first of many brain surgeries.

Yeah. And when we met her, she was at the beginning of that road and we just saw her again in Omaha and she looked like a different person. Yeah. And she was like, I got a couple more left, but I'm doing great. And like, I was just laying there listening to you guys. Like we get to hear stories like that that are genuinely amazing, huge compliments. But like, it's just big stuff.

Yeah. And there's a bunch of them in a row and then we all go home and go to sleep. And we complain about being tired when really what we want to do is tell you every single one of these stories because they're, each one is, is amazing. And if we really processed it, we would just be bawling the whole time because it's huge. It's incredible. It's unexpected as fuck. And it's incredible.

Like we're so grateful. Yeah. We can't believe this is our lives. I know. And each one is even like when people come up and go, I don't know what to say to you. And I didn't bring you anything. And we're like, we know, we get it. We love it.

And we take a picture and then they walk away. Yeah. It's equally as exciting for us because we can't believe that we get to even have a meet-and-greet. Yeah. So, yeah, I guess our, we get to share a fucking hooray, which is fucking hooray for the audience that listens to this show and decides to participate so much with us and with each other. Yeah. Yeah.

It's beautiful. We're happy to be part of it. Yeah. Thanks, you guys. Thanks, you guys. Thanks for that special episode. Okay. What a mess.

What a gorgeous disaster. What a glorious mess we've made of ourselves. Oh, I love it. Love it. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Bye. Bye.

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