My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 245 - Time Is Becoming A Serious Problem

Episode Date: October 22, 2020

Karen and Georgia cover the Pied Piper of Tucson. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstock. That's Karen Kiger of Psy. I was like, are we going to do the thing where we define it somehow? Yeah, we are now. Sometimes we do a thing where we define it.

And then you laugh in your room. They never know what to say those two. You think after five years they would have done nothing to say. Or would care enough to prepare it in some way. But no, we know the magic is in the lack of preparation. That's right. Every week, we just spill stuff out of our mouths into a microphone. That's our guarantee to you. Good.

I have two sleeping dogs in this room and they will not, it won't continue. So at some point, we're going to have a surprise. Constant anxiety about when your dogs are going to bark. When I'm recording a podcast, yeah, that actually I make a living off of. It shouldn't matter more. Well, if that mattered, we would have made up a beginning too, an intro. True. So it would be like, okay, for sure next week, Georgia on the, here's our action list.

Here, I'm going to make, I made you cue cards. We start with, we start with, hey, how are you? You know, what are you needing? America. Should we not say, hey, America? Oh, yeah. Hey. In Canada and the greater, Oh, right. Greater territories of,

What's up? What's up Finland? Oh, man. Hey, Finland. Hey, Finland. I see you, girl. Hey, girl, you look good, girl. Me too.

All right. No more nonsense. Yeah, let's get serious. Okay. Um, how are you? Fine. How are you? Good.

Good. Fine. Yes. Should we, should we tell people what we were just laughing about? Or wait, is that going to ruin it for your show, Stephen? Uh, I don't think so. It's almost a, well, this is a spoiler alert. Yes. It's a sneak peek.

Yeah. It's a, yeah. A teaser sometimes for a trailer. Stephen was just telling us about, like who he, what cat owner he has on for the, uh, the podcast. Upcoming. Upcoming. And it's, um, just look up hashtag Steve Buscemi cat.

And then I have never, and he sent us a picture, and I've never heard Karen laugh so hard and loud. And then, and then Stephen's comment, I'm just, you tell. Okay. So this cat is, there is an Adam Driver cat that looks literally exactly like Adam Driver. And long ago we did a bit on Ellen, like literally in the early days, like 2004 or something. Send us a picture of your pet and we'll tell you what celebrity it looks like. And we had a cat that looked exactly like Scarlett Johansson.

And it was really hilarious. Whoa. And the cat was kind of scrappy too. It wasn't like it was some gorgeous. It was really funny. Anyway, I think Dottie looks like Adam Scott. She looks like she could be Adam Scott's teenage daughter. Do you know that I've known Adam Scott since I moved to LA?

Stop it. Yeah. Yeah. He used to, he used to, my old roommate used to be in an acting class with him. Oh my God. So we've known each other since we were 24. Wow. Wow. Yes.

But I don't, we don't really know each other anymore. Yeah, but if you saw each other, you'd be like, hey, it's you. I literally, at the beginning of this year, I think, or the end of last year, ran into him in the grocery store and we had a lovely, like, ketchup kind of funny thing. Because he was a huge fan of Mr. Show. Oh, wow. So he would come to our, like, rat parties and stuff back in the day. Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah. Well, then, great. So then you can text him or read him about Dottie's, Dottie looking like his teenage daughter. I shouldn't describe this cat because it's better for you just to go have your own experience. But all I'll say is this is an insane looking cat. And as I'm looking at it and laughing my ass off, Stephen, I looked down at the Instagram post that Stephen sent us a caption of.

And the first comment is from Stephen and it does this insane cat face. And it just says, iconic. That's Stephen's comment. I do that on a lot of cat Instagrams. I love it. It's really good. It's really good. It's called out for it.

Iconic. Let's put it on our Instagram slide show of this episode. But it is a preview for Stephen's podcast, The Percast. I don't want to steal all Stephen's light. We're definitely stealing Stephen's light and Stephen's light and thunder by even approaching this topic at all. Exactly. Very rude.

I love it. What do you got? What's she doing this week? How's your life? Well, medium. Here's the problem. If I have an appointment that's at 30, so it's like it's at 2.30. It's at 12.30.

I will be either early or late for it. I can't do on the half hour. Time is becoming a serious problem for me. Honestly, it's like I'll say to my friend like, oh, we should definitely talk. Let's try to talk this week. Three weeks will pass. And then they'll be like, hey, so do you still want it? And I'll be like, what?

I thought we just had that conversation. It's all getting very blurry and strange. Yeah. But I think it's because I just, I think I need to leave my house more than I am. And just like drive or, you know, put on my mask and go to a Starbucks drive through or whatever. Yeah. Well, I saw you on Sunday though.

We saw each other's faces. Yes, it was so nice. Vincent and I came over for a socially distanced poolside hang at Karen's. You fucking, you fed me a nerd's rope. And I took great pictures of your dog because then I need to send you. Yes, you did. Are you now a nerd's rope believer? Would you say?

Oh my God. Yes. Yes. Like you kind of end up thinking about them later on. I ate the entire thing and it was amazing. It's so good. I was going to order like a delivery or whatever from the grocery store. I was going to get a bag of Halloween candy.

But the one and tell me if you agree or disagree on this. The one of the bags of candy had nerds in it. And I was like, here we go. But then it was like, it had half fruit based candy and half chocolate. And I don't like that because they should separate. Chocolate picks up the flavor of the thing it's laying next to. So then you bite into like a Snickers, but it also tastes like oranges. Yeah.

No, dude. I get that. Okay. I'd never thought about that before. Shit. Well, I don't think I don't think we need to think about it that much. But I mean, oh, I have a thing to tell you about that. That's also, I think I talked about nerds ropes on so many podcasts that people started

someone actually tweeted me and it was really funny where they were like, I started thinking everyone was talking about nerds ropes. And then I just realized it was podcast you were on. It was just you. I need to stop talking about candy. And I don't know. See, you have to pay for something for the beginning. You just use it on every podcast. It's the same.

I'm picking up the same index card sitting on my desk. Hey folks, have you heard of these nerds ropes? I'm a little offended. I thought it was like a special thing between you and me, but it's cool. It is though. Okay. No one can take away our nerds ropes moment when I can converted you to my side. It's like the Elvis turd that was just on the couch.

It's a special thing between you and me. No, that's not the same. Damn it. Okay. Oh, I have a news article to read to you. Okay. I have one for you. Oh my God.

What if it's the same? Is it about teeth? No. No. Okay. This one starts out for at least the third time construction workers in Georgia have opened up the walls of a former dentist's office only to discover thousands of teeth in the wall. Look at this picture.

Oh, shit. Oh, God. And the dentist's office was only open from 1900 to 1930 something. So those are all vintage fucking antique teeth. Oh my God. That he would just like throw over his shoulder probably and like into the wall. He had a great aim. It was his version of having like the little basketball hoop.

Yes. The Nerf. It was like his Nerf basketball hoop from 1910. Yeah. And we're saying we're saying he because women weren't allowed to do anything back then. So it definitely was. True. Probably.

It's a safe assumption. It's a very safe assumption. Although if you have a relative that was a ground breaking dentist in the tens that was a lady. Actually the first female dentist it was. What's interesting and you would just like that you know. But instead you're sexist. Goodbye. Okay.

What's yours? That's crazy. I mean I feel like we've gotten that story. We've heard stories like that over the years at least once before but in Georgia it's already happened three times. It's like an epidemic in Georgia apparently. It's crazy. I don't know why I feel proud a little bit because my name is just Georgia.

I have nothing to do with the state but I'm a little like proud of us. You know and you should be as you should be. Also you know what I was thinking the other day because I read I was reading oh this book I'm reading that I really like and the state of Georgia gets brought up in it. And then I was like it's such a good name. Yeah. Have we had this discussion? It's such a great name.

Thank you. I say that because I hated it when I was a kid and then I'm not now I'm like fucking own it. It's a great name. Yeah. And I think it really is. I think it's like part of my personality too. You know what I mean?

Like if I had been named something else I would have been a different fucking person completely. Is that true? Do you think? I mean potentially yes. If you weren't Karen's you think you would just be a different person. If you were like meh. Yeah I think yes for sure because first of all and I've told you this no one could rhyme

anything with Karen so the meanest thing they could call me was the red baron and I was like you fools it doesn't hurt at all. Don't even try. Get away. So there is that like yeah it's your like Mike my cousin wanted to I won't say the name because then people get hurt but my cousin wanted to name his firstborn a certain name and when he told my sister she was like so you just want her to be unpopular. But it was they were trying to do one of those old-fashioned you know Agnes style names but

don't be mad because I actually think Agnes is a very cool name. It's a very good name. There's a couple old-fashioned names that are old because they went away for good reason. You know let them go away. No we're just going to name someone who listens is going to be named or their it's only going to hurt grandma yeah. We're going to bring back only going to hurt rating feelings. Yeah.

No it's fine. And every single Sloan that ever listened to us is never going to listen to us again. Sloan is a great name. I know. Fuck yeah. I love the name Sloan. That's a beautiful name Sloan. Did you have a you had a say.

I have another name that I really like but it's going to I have to fold it into something else I'm going to tell you but this is this this is the news item I printed up for you. Okay. Which somebody tweeted on vice I think our friend Josh Mankiewicz retweeted this on on Twitter. Shout out but remember the story of Kim Wall who was the Danish journalist who got killed by the guy that invented his own submarine. Yes. That guy his name is Peter Madsen escaped from jail by taking a prison psychologist hostage

and walking her out of this jail. They caught him. He's back in jail. So he didn't he only got a kilometer away which as Americans we have no idea how far that is but so he got around the world. He got three baseball stadiums away. He got a 400 meter dash away. He got three minutes of skipping.

He's he's back. He's back in jail. That's the most important part but but anyway I was just kind of that's just almost in the in the topical true crime news area that I just went oh my god this guy he won't quit. What a dick. But other than that I have a couple new TV shows that I've watched because I aside from time not working normally for me I've become procrastinating things like things I don't even need to procrastinate. I'm like calling people and being like can you cancel that for today.

Can you like it's so I'm getting it's like my new passion and hobby is to is to do what makes you procrastinate. Yeah you got to do it. Make your shoes same in these trying times. We're like sorry I just really need to put that off for today. And it's like you made the appointment. It was your it's not a hard no you don't you don't at all. Yeah but it's so nice when you like suddenly don't have anything when you thought you had

everything and you suddenly have nothing for the day. Suddenly it's a blank slate. It's like the room gets bigger and all of a sudden and the TV becomes more beautiful. If you can imagine that a more fascinating television weather has been like weird and foggy here. So it's like oh and I just I can't do anything. It's so beautiful out. I probably should have soup and put on an Irish fair isle sweater and curl up.

And it's like 82. I know but for LA actually last night when I got into bed I had a duvet inside of a duvet cover and I had to take it out because it got so hot. And this was you know I did that say a month ago because I was like what am I doing. I don't need to sleep under this duvet cover. Last night when I got into bed I was laying there reading and I was cold and then I basically had to go change into like a long sleeve long pajamas and put on like winter pajamas and because there's no way I was putting a duvet in a duvet cover in the middle of the night.

But I was like oh that's that's how we know the season's turning. That's how you know in LA is you need a light duvet. Yeah suddenly you go from a single sheet to a light duvet. And that means it's Halloween. Two and a half months and then it's 82 again. Then you're sweating and it's Valentine's Day. Hey what's up? Okay what's your show?

Okay I have four but I'll do I'll do them fast. I have none so you can take mine. Oh okay I'll do your voice for the second rate. Good luck with that. Okay. I don't talk like that. I like TV. I'm on TV.

I don't hear to you. Okay the first show. Okay remember in the Ricky Gervais Netflix show Afterlife. I loved it. Remember the sex worker named Daphne. Yes. Who was just the best vibe. The best.

The most genius. It's such a wonderful part well written hilarious. Well that woman is a woman named Roshane Canadi. I believe I'm pronouncing that right but there's lots of ways to go wrong there. She has a series called Game Face on it's on streaming whatever. It is so fucking fun. What is it? It's just her kind of trying not it's like it's it's a typical setup where it's just like her

and her crazy life and she's like an actress that also has to be a temp. But it's her personal so I guess she started as a stand-up. Oh wow. Does stand up or whatever so it's like it's and she is the she created this show herself. Oh wow. So it's like it's her own vehicle. It's really funny. There's some stuff that happens in it that is so hilariously insane.

It's just like a great great show. Okay watch it Game Face. Then there's another show that like then you start getting things suggested for you along the lines. So the next one was it's a show called The Other One. It's so good. Remember Catastrophe their Rob Delaney Sharon Horgan show. So good as well. The babysitter that they get who's like has the accent and she has her all her hair pulled back

and like she's like you know I can't do the I can't do the accent I don't remember. I don't know what where she's she's from a certain part of London that is very like she's like a yeah you know she has a certain kind of accent I don't know I don't know how to explain it because it maybe it's cockney or maybe it's a different area but she's just basically kind of supposed to be quote unquote street I think okay and she's really funny she's like the babysitter she just doesn't give a shit all the time okay so she's in this show called The Other One. The Other One's plural and it's about a mom and daughter and their the husband has just died the father's just died and then they find out he has a secret family

and the secret family is is that woman who's the babysitter and then her mother who is the woman from shit sorry I should have written all this down because I didn't get this far in it's it's basically it's a bunch of your favorite British people who are really good at acting and the two of them so it's basically like kind of the snobby upscale people who then have to deal with the father's other family and it's so good I love that premise that's such a great idea it's really good and and it's not they don't do with it what you expect yeah and it makes it so much funnier yeah it's it's great okay love it and that one checking that out check that off and then there's one called uh not safe for work um and that is basically it has the vibe of like the office

a little less a verite and it's this woman who basically works at this place and then she finds out she's getting sent up to Northampton I think it was it is um which is basically where they send all the people who are bad at the job and she's like but I'm great at the job this doesn't make any sense and she gets up there it's it's just an it's like an office comedy it's brilliantly done it is like I couldn't stop watching it I definitely binge that that's called not safe for work okay and everyone in it in it is super talented and super good and they and you also recognize them from if you like British shows from a bunch of other shows that's all if you look British comedy female driven British comedy it is like three in a row I was like I mean seriously I was just

kind of watch whatever came on yeah and they're also well written funny great um that the problem is over there they do like one season of a show and they just because it was like one of these shows was from 2017 and I was like there's only one season of this why it's so good yeah they did it a lot and then the last one is just I finally watched the it's on Hulu and it's the biography I want my MTV oh about the MTV you know my life yes it's I kind of it was one of those things again where I didn't watch it right away because I'm like I'm gonna have all kinds of feelings and the visuals whatever I was I literally found myself cheering aloud at certain parts there's it's such a good like if you are younger than Generation X and you are interested in why we are we are or you know

like or you're interested in the trends from the 80s or whatever it's such a good comprehensive visual like yearbook of this how they built this network and it was our entire lives it was our entire lives around and remember how so the thing the way I found out about MTV was they put they ran ads on local TV that was just staying or Mick Jagger or someone popping up P Townsend and going I want my MTV call your cable provider and then they put your cable providers number on the screen so it's like the individual places did it yeah because they couldn't get most of the cable providers to agree to host their basically teenage show and there's it starts out explaining how no there was no TV that was aimed toward kids in like the late 70s early 80s

it was all adults conceived and adult directed VH1 and we wanted MTV I can't even I want it's so weird I just like realize that people younger than us don't realize how fucking huge MTV was it like as a kid that was your entire fucking life it was your life and I actually think as good as a job they did and man they started talking about how they got like those creatives where when they you know how the the the logo art would change so like the logo would stay the same but then all the art around it would change yeah the reason it was like that is because they they brought in all these examples for for the guy to pick and he just went let's use them all and it was this idea that they set up that it's like this is 24 hour it's always going to be changing this is the new 80s

like this is life now everything's gonna go fast for fucking teenagers it's fascinating and then there's just all these moments the first time I ever ditched school I was like in fifth or sixth grade and I stayed home to watch the premiere of like a fucking Debbie Gibson video yes only in my dreams uh no it's like electric you there's some electric you I was just like well fucking I'm not going to school tell 10 today because hell yes happening yes I was when the thriller um video premiered um I was at Holly Gardner's house Holly Gardner who's now been made famous by the terrible tampon in the suitcase story um but that wasn't her the only moment we had we we had we shared a wonderful childhood and it was like I guess in sixth grade or sixth or seventh grade and we

it was appointment tv we went to her house and wait and it was a countdown till the thriller video yeah it's just like watch it if if you cave you're like gen X like me and this was like a thing that like hypnotized you as a kid it's such a satisfying series show your teenage kids now because we're old enough to have teenage kids is not weird gross uh I know gross um cool yeah that's my whole that's my whole one life what have you haven't you have no been watching anything we're watching the same we're going back no oh yeah we need I get it it's just not happening right now got it what about podcasts uh no I'm you just taking a break taking a break from everything I've read a couple books which is nice oh that's very good not drinking just like completely changes

my like my whole schedule like not I can't do the same things anymore I have to like at nine o'clock I have to go downstairs and get into bed to read a book or take a bath or something otherwise I'm in a fucking drink you know yeah yeah well that's good that you've come up with these other things to do though yeah that's nice it's getting boring real quick but then I wake up and I don't feel like shit so that's nice yeah that is you just gotta tip the yeah tip that seesaw toward the not feeling like shit is a good thing thing yes believe me I've been talking about nerds ropes for three weeks so it's not like I'm saying that in any kind of high horse way speaking of a good thing let's do exactly right news let's do it well I think the most exciting

or let's not judge let's not have it be that way sure an exciting piece of information we're about to debut a new logo for SSDGM that someone drew for us in like I think the summertime yeah and we decided to hold it off just because we didn't know what was going on or anything and now we get to premiere it and it's based off of something you wanted right you were like I want this to look yeah I just wanted it I just wanted a new feel yeah because we've done kind of all the things and you know look could be a huge mistake but it just is like it's SSDGM but it's it basically is it's it reminds me of um schoolhouse rock yeah in terms of the arts it's very 70s very 70s art it's super cute and it looks like it belongs on a lunchbox so we made

lunchboxes of it good news goth girls everywhere although there's not that there's not that much black it's it's kind of past alley I think it's more like a riot girl like emo girl kind of a thing yeah well whatever kind of girl you are take a look because we are now um we are premiering that new SSDGM logo and we've got t-shirts tank tops mugs yeah the lunch the legendary lunchbox tumblers right take a look my favorite murder.com this there's the stores there on that on that website oh and this is the um Denton pointed out that this is the this is the design that that actually made me cry during one of our meetings because I love it so much I just love it I think it's so cool seeing cutesy things with with cutesy writing and cutesy flowers that when you saw

and I'm always like I love it I love it and then when finally something for Karen showed up the fucking SSDGM this is what I'm talking about she cried I mean I like cutie too but but how about you know we can do all kinds of tones and feels oh me too cutesy it's next level shit it's right it's for everyone okay exactly right here's hey here's a couple exactly right podcasts that are doing something fun this week on this week's episode of bananas curtain Scotty have musician Phoebe Bridgers friend of the fam family we love her it's so funny they talk about weird news like a woman who fell off a cliff trying to save a puppy it ends very well it ends very well don't worry and then there's one the parrots at a zoo who won't stop swearing at people that might

be my favorite thing I've ever seen in my entire life yeah and and more more so check bananas out this week with Phoebe Bridgers it's very cool I love I love that that they booked her I love that we got that and then it's not you know what I mean it's like usually it's family it's like you know I know family but that she's I love that people are willing to do stuff like this now because we're all we're all quarantined and whatever so yay thank you Phoebe for being on that show it was hilarious oh this is great this on the fall line this week Laura interviewed Josh Hallmark who's from True Crime Bullshit and Anna Priestland who's from Murder Town about their deep research methods for for series crime cases it's fascinating so cool so that's out this week as well fall

line yeah very exciting and then oh my god okay here's another this is a we saved this exciting news to tell you that are the newest podcast that's coming out on November 10th I saw what you did the trailer dropped so you gotta hear it and hear what it's gonna be like and it's so fucking exciting and cool and we I'm so proud of this podcast so each week Millie who's a film expert and Danielle who's a film enthusiast will discuss two movies with like a theme like neighborhood creeps and great 70s apartments so that's gonna be a really fun podcast that we're so excited about we're so proud of please subscribe to it that's like the biggest thing you can do for podcasts if you want to support them is to subscribe and to rate and review and I know everyone says that at the

end of every podcast but it is because it puts you up on the charts on iTunes or Spotify or whatever so it helps get visibility and people can see people will see the podcast so big oh it's that and then they'll follow it too so that's the coolest thing you can do it's another great hang from the exactly right that's right so that's I saw what you did so please um subscribe and all that stuff and yeah that comes out on November 10th and you get to hear it right when this episode ends so we're basically tagging it on to the end of this episode so it'll be there waiting for you as a delicious sampler of our newest podcast that's gonna come out is it time for me to do my story Georgia since it's a one it's a wonder god I loved last week when you just did

yours and you were just like mine's really long should be just like yes again procrastination yeah but then this week it's then this week it's your turn the burden's on me let's see I tried roller skating once by the way with my week and it didn't go well and I've given it up already hold on now where did you do it outside of my house on the um I know but no Vince had to hold me up the entire time I wasn't like sure I was terrified and then I just had this realization that I could really hurt myself like really really hurt like I posted it on Instagram this like photo like I'm doing it and then a but it like a long time ago I bruised my tailbone or I like cracked my tailbone so I'm really scared and then all these people like go get them Georgia you can do it

hey once I broke my wrist when I was roller skating and then people like sweetly were just like yeah me too telling me they're horrible injuries from roller skating yeah and I was like wait a second I'm 40 I don't want to break anything I don't want to go to the hospital I don't want to hurt myself but it's for Instagram likes do it I did it I got one post up and it was liked a lot and I was fucking cute in it and now I can put those fucking roller skates in the basement and save them for I don't know never save them for when the moonlight roller rink and over in Glendale opens back up and we go to like fucking 80s MTV night that's a great idea great because when you fall at the roller rink yes I mean you may have that's where you may have broken your tailbone which it's

not I think on the fuck it was on the sidewalk yes I think you can throw yourself into a carpeted wall yeah like that's what you need to do because it's all about like stopping the forward motion if you're out of control but like city streets ain't it because there's gum and holes and gravel and shit like I don't know what I was thinking but I'm giving that up and I'm gonna try to have another hobby soon that's not skating no that's not going to maim me in any way and make me go driving cars with no brakes let's see what swords in the park perfect did you see that story somebody retweeted this and I can't stop thinking about it I do this all the time where I look at Twitter and I absorb it but I don't like save or fave any of the stuff yeah we all know this

because I do it every week but somebody posted a picture talking about how disturbing like we're all talking about social media and the social dilemma which is the amazing special on Netflix about how totally fucked we are with with all this stuff and how it's affecting us but somebody posted a picture there is a there's a private jet set so it's like the Hollywood set that if you were on a sitcom you would go and sit on that and it's like oh this is the scene where we're in a private jet well that Instagram influencers are using to pretend that they are on private jets top it uh-huh because people started recognizing that's that same jet from and then basically oh that's from deep I think I saw that on the set of deep what does that say that the

president's played what do you know there's a oh my god go on well no my point is just I keep thinking about it because you know when I see like people from Instagram it's like some of those Kardashian pictures where I'm like oh my skin will never glow like that and I will never have like it's too late for me because like the the the monologue that starts in my head about how I hate pictures of myself well the reason is because I'm comparing myself to mannequins to 3d images that that were created in a computer these are not real people they're not real situations and have people who make them look like that there's a there's a subreddit that's called Instagram reality where they'll show the photo that someone posted and like how tiny their

waist is and how hot and big their butt is and then they'll like look at the look at the wall in the back and the walls like bending because it's really good because or like there's like people without pores that don't have pores in their lives it's like not fucking real these people are I mean it's fine do your fucking thing but it's but when but people like who have low self-esteem or who feel bad about themselves need to not fucking take that seriously or eating disorders where you're you're taking you know and I will speak just for myself in this where it's always an issue for me and it's always a concern of mine and it's a problem because again because I grew up in the 80s where you had to be 89 pounds totally like on coke and blonde yeah and back then it was all

kind of real because I guess they didn't have the technology but when you bring when I bring my issues to social media it's only basically to get beaten up I'm I'm going to the playground to get my face punched by feeling bad about how great everyone looks like the other day I was looking at there's like a group of friends picture that somebody posted on Twitter for some reason and I was like oh my god I would look terrible if I was in that picture and I'm like they're 26 like I did that 25 years ago I'm supposed to look like that and you're fine then no none of this like all of we're all comparing it's like we're all back in high school yeah whether you're fucking 50 or 18 or or or fucking eight like it's really not good for us no take

it all with a grain of salt I guess yes thing also if somebody could take whatever Georgia posted in her skates and somehow animate that to make it look like she's going off a jump like Tony Hawk we'd love to see it basically live for Georgia and make it look like what she posted it's like now I'm the best roller skater of all time you might be able to because I look like I'm sitting on a curb tying my skates so you might be able to look like I'm doing a jump where I pull my you know pull the board up high you just basically posted a picture of like I'm getting ready and then just never never did anything else well there was no hands available to take photos of me while I was skating because I wouldn't let go of Vince truly I like kind of hurt him when I was

with my grandpa so there was no way to take a photo I was like okay I put my skates on and then don't let go of me please oh shit I just don't want to do that to him again skateboarding another fucking thing I hurt myself really bad at when I tried it's tough when the answers don't try because then you don't hurt don't try to stand or sit on things with wheels that have no brakes if that isn't something you've done before maybe or a lot looking for a better cooking routine with meal planning shopping and prepping handled hello fresh has you covered hello fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year hello fresh meals are convenient seasonal and delicious

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when you go to hello fresh dot ca slash murder 20 and use code murder 20 goodbye what makes a person a murderer are they born to kill or are they made to kill I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast killer psyche daily I share a quick 10 minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds psychopaths and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse FBI agent and criminal profiler on killer psyche daily I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton serial killer I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico answer some killer trivia and even

host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions hey prime members listen to the amazon music exclusive podcast killer psyche daily in the amazon music app download the app today well this week I'm going to do the Pied Piper of Tucson okay we've never done this one before I don't think I know it it's old okay it's from the 60s okay and there been it's been covered a lot because it's one of those things it wasn't just the case itself it was then kind of taken at the time to reflect a cultural issue and so it's kind it's it's pretty it's pretty interesting and the reason the reason I picked this one is because I got this tweet and so did you you fucking stalking me on twitter so did you yeah I'm blocked yep I like to check your mentions

don't you dare block me um this is from a listener named Brenna and she said to both of us added both of us I'm an English professor at LSU and just read where are you going where have you been which is a short story by Joyce Joyce Carolotes with my intro to fiction class not realizing it was inspired by this article about the Pied Piper of Tucson would love to hear it on the pod beautiful and yeah so she linked this article from Life Magazine 1966 called the Pied Piper of Tucson and the other uh just so thank you so much Brenna for sending that and because she's a professor she didn't just send the suggestion but she linked the article so that so that the research would be there but I also used myazbar.org Murderpedia Wikipedia and once again Jay found a research

document from Radford University from their psychology department I used one of these once before at a live show I remember because they break down um criminal cases or or killers and they break them down because they're psychology wise so they they give a really great chronology by year listing the year age and then the event that happened and they go through the whole thing of like is the triad of um oh yeah yeah you know the triad is the dark triad in there is this is this and basically it's for it's them basically learning that that stuff but when you're when you're doing these stories you can go in and know exactly the year the thing happened so good it's amazing so thank you to Jacqueline Mullins Shayna Brown and Quinton Preston um they're the ones that

researched and summarized all this information for the Department of Psychology at Radford University I'm like excited about this one that if it's so interesting that psychologists have to like fuck and take it apart and shit yeah it's well yeah because it is it's one of these it's an interesting one they also a crime to remember covered this too cool yeah yeah so well then so okay okay so it's May 31st 1964 and 15 year old Alline Rowe gets ready for bed so she can get up early for a test the next day at school she's a tested six a.m. fuck that shit I mean horrifying um she's a sophomore at Palo Verde High School in Tucson Arizona um she's an above average student she's very pretty um and she has dreams of going to college to become an oceanographer

her parents um are recently divorced and she and her newly single mom Norma they just moved to Tucson the year before um Alline adjusts to to life in her new town quickly she makes friends with a neighbor 18 year old Mary French who's a high school dropout and for some reason Jay included in his research that she was in quotes frumpy and it made me laugh for so long what the fuck you live 18 years of your fucking life getting to be described as frumpy frumpy forever you know she was wearing some moss green sweater yeah like she just got pulled in a card again that was a little oversized sorry I can't be a supermodel all goddamn day and night um she was like the first one to wear pants in her town the girl to wear pants in her town so they

call her check out that's from pixie mad i argue for frumpism at all times absolutely i'm a big frump supporter careful okay oh my god so Mary has this boyfriend um Mary works at a the nursing home in town and she met the son of the owners of this nursing home and his name is Charles smitty schmidt um he's 21 mary's 18 um he has jet black hair and a drawn on beauty mark on his cheek how many wraps of cigarettes up in his fucking white t-shirt sleeve yes he's doing complete elvis drag okay or uh like he is he wants people to think he looks like elvis he wants people to tell him he looks like elvis like it's oh it's his obsession okay um in addition he's five three okay sometimes and sometimes schmitty his friend 19 year old john saunders

hangs out too john saunders tall and gangly schmitty five foot three it's a hilarious combination not really um okay so aileen's mother doesn't like mary friend she thinks she's a bad influence um on her daughter aileen she doesn't she's seen the kids that they hang out with racing up and down the street um street racing was big um in Tucson at the time and she's also caught smitty staring at her with what she calls pinpoint eyes she has an especially bad feeling about him but she's also so glad her daughter has friends that she can't complain and she's a single mother um so she's you know she can only do what she can do yeah so aileen goes to sleep that night may 31st 1964 and norma heads out she's an for her night shift she's a nurse okay so she goes to Tucson hospital

once normal leaves mary smitty and john pull up um to the house mary taps on aileen's window and wakes her and invites her to come out drinking with them so of course aileen goes because right high school that's your high school dream totally and these kids are older so she's she's 15 she's 15 she's 15 and these kids are 18 and then the boys are even older than that so it must have actually been very thrilling to be like included and hey come on we got a party oh my god for sure so um smitty drives all of them out to one of their usual drinking spots in the secluded desert in the dark of night they park and walk down into the wash which is a dry creek bed that only fills up seasonally jay literally left the definition in because of i think because the last time when

we talked about a slew or a sloth whatever i think we discussed how it would be pronounced and someone wrote in when we talked about that and said that the pedaloma river was considered a slew or a sloth which i found offensive anyway um so they're down in their drinking right this is kind of just what kids do yeah you know like to get away go drink a beer out in a weird field somewhere we drank in the um in the orange county like a river bed like the la river did you uh-huh was it cement like the like from grease cement and empty yeah it was exactly like it was like from grease yeah nice love it and you took it you take off your neck or chiff and then start the drag races always yeah um you're you're the best dancer from saint bernadette

okay so they're out there um they sit and they chat and then according to mary smitty um sorry and then later according to mary smitty and mary walk back to his car and they leave aliene and john behind um but then as they're walking they hear a cry so mary goes on and gets into the car alone and smitty goes back to the wash mary sits in the car alone for 45 minutes and then john shows up at the car and says that smitty wants her to come back to the wash but she says she refused so then he leaves and 10 minutes later smitty appears gets in the car beside mary oh no and an excited voice says we killed her i love you very much and then he kisses mary and he grabs a shovel from the trunk and then he and mary walk back to the wash where john is

and they find him standing over aliene's body she has blood on her head and her face she's laying a face up then they dig a shallow grave put aliene in it wipes smitty's car clean of her fingerprints and leaves so tucson in the 60s is basically has the appearance of a typical peaceful american suburb it's after world war two and the population goes from 85 000 to 300 000 it's filled with older retirees you know who want to enjoy a simple life in the warm weather um but there's not enough work to go around and there's so many retirees that pick up like part-time jobs that there aren't enough for the kids in the area to take those part-time jobs so they don't have a lot to do and the schools are overcrowded so they're on it operates in split sessions so some kids go

to school during the first half of the day other kids go to school in the second half of the day so that leaves yeah a bunch of kids free to roam around from either noon onward or from six o'clock until noon the next day yeah yeah so it's not like everyone has to be up and ready to go seven a.m. or whatever so basically this is like a recipe for kids partying and like hanging out teenagers cure their boredom by driving around a stretch of road called the speedway and they also hang out at burger joints there's a teen nightclub called the pickup palace oh dear well they call sorry they call it the pickup palace i don't i don't know what it's called um they also use fake IDs to get into bars uh so sometimes they just go out into the desert

and throw what they call a boondocker which is basically a desert kegger yeah and that my friends was the birthplace of burning man just kidding just kidding the long and the short of it is the teens of tucson it's very easy for them to get in trouble yeah because there's just a ton of hanging out there's nothing to do so so the elderly king of these teen troublemakers is none other than charles smitty schmitt he was born july 8th 1942 in tucson he's adopted by wealthy owners of the hillcrest nursing home charles and catherine schmitt and they spoil him rotten he's strange and he's a bit of an outsider but he's not unpopular he's obsessed with elvis as i said he always tries to emulate his style so he dyes his hair black he styles it the same way

he puts makeup on his face so he can appear tanner and then draws the beauty mark um using axle grease because that's because elvis had one and he also puts a clothespin on his lip to pull his lip downward and give him the pouty look that elvis had you know he had like that wait does that work because we've been i don't i doubt it yeah exact he he dreamed of fillers he was trying to get that going um he's also super insecure about his height which is very difficult i think like the height thing for men is like the weight thing for women yes um he buys um elevated cowboy boots stuff some with newspapers and crushed up beer cans and ads inside the boot adds three inches so he's got the heel of the boot that's adding height and then inside

he's basically wearing high heels i've done that so that he appears tall i did that as a kid because i wasn't tall enough to play a laser tag so what'd you do photon it was called and i fucking went in the bathroom and stuffed my shoes with paper towels to try to be a little taller and it didn't work so my brother and sister got to go play a laser tag and would you do you just stare at like the gumball machine yeah or like there's this like walkway at the top that you're allowed to stand on and like shoot down but you don't get it like actually play oh yeah and then it closed by the time i was tall enough that's why i am a college dropout and that's why i say would if if they just would have let me play laser tag the one thing is he is legitimately good-looking

and he does have they say he did have a certain kind of charisma so he was very popular with the ladies he was usually dating as many as he could at the same time so even though mary considered him her boyfriend he he had a more than one girlfriend um at the time he actually in fact bought two fake diamond rings gave one to mary french and then another one to a girl named kathy morath he proposed to both of them and convinces both of them to get jobs and joint bank accounts with him oh no uh-huh so then they work they deposit their their paycheck he goes and takes all the money um when kathy morath realizes smithy never cared about her and was just basically setting her up to him so that he could take money from her yeah she breaks up with

him and starts dating his best friend richie bruns um smithy is also a bad student he once wrote a theme paper about how he wanted to quote run naked down the street of john the main street of tucson masturbating and screaming obscenities at the world great so i need a new hobby that sounds pretty awesome i know roller skating is out for you but if you would just consider this because you'd have to get good at running and masturbating at the same time sure i need like i have a tiger playing in my headphones just focus you have to drink a bunch of raw eggs okay um but the thing about him he is not a good student not interested in school a really great athlete though he led his high school gymnastics team to the state championships in 1960 um but the same

year he steals equipment from the school's machine shop so he gets suspended and then he just decides he's not going back so he was suspended but he wasn't he wasn't expelled yeah so they're just like oh here's your punishment and he's like peace um and because his parents spoiled him and you know whatever they let him do whatever he wanted um instead he just hangs out in the school parking lot so he socializes there he meets girls there he doesn't have to have a job his parents buy him a little house um so that he can live in it on his own and they give him an allowance of 300 dollars a month which i'm sure is a lot today then Stephen will you look up and see in 1964 how much 300 dollars a month would have been i'm gonna say 1964 i'm gonna say 1450 georgia guesses

14 wait Stephen we're gonna do some guesses okay georgia guesses 1450 14 300 a month i'm gonna say 2500 Stephen what's your guess here you already know the answer it's i'm gonna guess the right answer because i just looked it up it's it's a little over 2500 whoa Karen the mathematician and i win 2500 but i owe you 25 yeah from georgia that's that was the bet sorry sorry that was the bet damn it wow i mean so that's a lot of fucking money that's especially when he owns his house he doesn't have to spend any of that money on rent no he spends all of his money on cans to crush up to put in his boots he throws a lot of parties he goes out drinking with anyone who'll hang out with them he's also a pathological liar so he does stuff like he lies to make himself

sound cool and here's an example of one of those lies he tells people his birth name is Angel Rodriguez which is a cool name yeah but it's also made up yeah it's like well you could say yeah um what is it getting you yeah in conversation yeah like be like angel like from god great congratulations he also so that's like to seem cool but then he also does stuff like he told a girlfriend once that he shot out the windows of his own car and then told his girlfriend i was shot at by thugs trying to protect you this is what happened so he's he's up for lying about kind of anything to make himself look cool or badass he he also lies to get sympathy so he tells people that his mom was a famous lawyer who wanted nothing to do with him and put him up for

adoption and wouldn't talk to him or whatever there is a story about him having a when his parents told him he was adopted he met with the birth mother and it didn't go well so he's it's almost like he's trying to take that story and kind of like play it for sympathy and interest i guess his recklessness and his willingness to spend his money on other people makes him very popular with the board teenagers of Tucson very popular so teenagers are totally down to hang with this guy because he is buying which is the way to do it if that if you're if you're a weird 23 year old who wants to be around 15 year olds you better get that wallet out so when norma returns from work so that's that's everything the horrible shit that happened the night before

so norma who's just worked a night shift gets home and her daughter is not there she calls the police reports are missing they search for aileen but they don't find any sign of her norma immediately suspects that smitty has something to do with it and the police do question him mary and john but all three smitty mary and john have the same story they were all supposed to go on a double date but when they showed up to pick up aileen she wasn't there so they left and the police have no evidence to suggest anything different or that they had anything to do with it so they just let them go now norma doesn't believe this story for a second and she knows she knows there's a lot of kids that are kind of up to no good in town aileen told her there was a

rumor going around that smitty was running a sex club where if you wanted to be in it you had to have sex in front of a bunch of other people that was like the initiation whoa weird rumors like that where i'm sure it added to his kind of like reputation and prowess or you know like fascination or whatever but yeah yeah but i'm sure mary as a 15 year old heard about it and was like oh my god you know like so um so norma knew you know there that there was there was stuff going on and that she her daughter didn't just like walk out of the house and walk away yeah so norma tells the police all of this stuff that that she knows they dismiss her they say it's just rumors they're making it all up you know that's what kids do um and of course the cops assume aileen ran away

so norma the badass that she is takes the investigation into her own hands oh yeah um she questions other schoolmates of aileen to see if they know anything she also reaches out to reporters to get the word out she also calls arizona's attorney general and the fbi trying to get them to help she speaks with a new jersey psychic who tells her that aileen is buried somewhere in the desert under a tree police refuse to search they because they don't have evidence to warrant it and they wouldn't know where to start if they did yeah norma leaves her kitchen light on every night in hopes that aileen will turn back up and come on home oh that's the saddest saddest worst but after a year the investigation loses steam and fizzles out which sounds like it never had any

steam in the first place then just two months later in june of 19 then just two months later in july of 1964 smithy meets 17 year old gretchen fritz at the local pool and she is the trouble making daughter of a wealthy surgeon um and they're basically that's his type i mean that's like perfect for him is the rebellious rich girl fun who wants to like yeah exactly she wants to go be dangerous um and so he basically follows her home from the pool and knocks on her door and starts a conversation with her so they are immediately obsessed with each other um but they fight constantly and great gretchen never wants him to go out with his friends she doesn't want him to talk to other girls which is what he's all about he does both of those things

constantly and their fights definitely go verge into abuse for sure um once gretchen gets jealous not physical abuse but then just like ridiculous stuff like she gets jealous so she dumps a bottle of shoe polish on his car oh then he takes it um 95 steps further and writes a letter to the Tucson health department accusing gretchen of spreading venereal disease around town oh my god so they're yeah it's like real housewives but it's 1964 oh my god um and even after this kind of stuff he also um because the her parents hated him of course and didn't want her going out with him and in one of these fights um later on he wrote the parents a little her parents a letter saying just so you know your daughter is still going out with me just to fuck her over like it's

insanity and oh my god i'm never having kids oh so crazy so um they're still inseparable though it's part of it of course naturally they're yeah and eventually smitty confides in gretchen um telling her that he killed aline row he also claims to have killed another person before aline a boy who he says killed his girlfriend in a car accident gretchen doesn't care she still keeps dating him but after a year well because in and i shouldn't say doesn't care but this would be he's basically put down a bonding um opportunity for her to go i'll keep your secret it's just you and me in this world yeah you know like now i she's probably scared now you know she's like oh then i don't want to date you anymore like you're a murderer right i'm good

that's not gonna happen yeah the fuck yeah exactly scared fascinated like can't get away yeah she's afraid of the letters hill right after she leaves i mean i can't i still can't get over that that's like a weird burn it's like not in the heat of the moment where you take shoe polish and dump it on the car it's like deers you know like did he fucking write it freehand and type it or what hit a licking envelope you had to take it down to the fucking post office minimum 12 steps yeah to fuck your girlfriend over that you're just gonna make up with again totally so after about a year um the relationship reaches a breaking point um she threatens smitty saying that if he doesn't stop seeing other girls she's gonna go to the police and tell them that he murdered aline

roe shortly after august 16th 1965 gretchen takes her little 13 year old sister wendy to a drive-in movie but they never come back gretchen's dad assumes that smitty has something to do with it obviously the parents never liked him it's you know um he hires a private detective and the detective finds gretchen's car abandoned behind a motel when the police go to interview smitty he tells them he thinks the two sisters ran away to mexico can you imagine losing two daughters like it's just horrifying well losing two daughters horrifying being a single mom and losing one daughter only child yeah i mean yeah it's total total destruction devastation yeah okay so the week after that on august 23rd 1965 smitty has his best friend richie bruns

over to his house and they start talking about gretchen and smitty says you know i killed her right i did it right here in the living room um then he says that he strangled both of them dumped their bodies in another desert spot where they would go drink sometimes wiped down gretchen's car and ditched it behind the motel so richie has been friends with this guy long enough to know that he's definitely a compulsive liar and brags about weird shit to make himself look good so he doesn't really believe him but a couple nights later smitty shows up at richie's house with a couple intimidating guys in suits smoking cigars and the guys take the boys to an apartment where more guys in suits question them about gretchen and wendy they say they were hired

to find her by the family and smitty believes that they are mafia connected oh sure yeah so smitty remains calm he says he doesn't know where the girls are that that maybe they went to california and the suit and men let the boys go so back at smitty's house they go back to smitty's house and smitty calls the fbi what uh-huh um he he tells them uh that some mafia members of the mafia harassed him about gretchen's disappearance they tell smitty they'll send someone to come and speak with him dear yeah it's not too bright so now richie's scared he doesn't actually really know what's going on but he knows that now the fbi is going to figure it out and be involved somehow so he tells smitty if he really did kill the girls that he and he just put them in the

desert he's gonna need a better hiding spot and smitty's like you know what you're exactly right come with me and they go out he drives them to where he basically dumped gretchen and wendy's bodies they aren't even buried they're still like on the surface and then they try to bury them but the the shovel they have can't break the ground it's like where they are is too hard so they pull the bodies deeper into the wash to hide them better so now richie's implicated in this yeah he's now become a part of it totally so the next day smitty meets with the fbi agents to report what happened with these alleged mobsters um but then later the same day smitty goes with those mobsters to san diego to quote unquote look for gretchen and when he's there he gets arrested

by the police for impersonating an fbi agent what uh-huh they release him without charges he comes back to tucson so that's just like this weird thing where uh yeah it's kind of a mysterious part of the story where because he would go he would actually go to california every once in a while and he would go and get into trouble out there he was like kind of always going out on these trips and coming back um so yeah that's that's one part whether or not he actually went with the mafia guys whether he's taken against his will whatever was going on with that he's he's picked up for saying he's in the fbi like the whole i know all of it it's it's super crazy so then but after that like trip in that whole thing there is a chance that those people that were hired actually were

putting real pressure on him because he starts unraveling he becomes more violent um he starts destroying his own home like having these these outbursts of rage um on september ninth 1965 he goes on a blind date with a 15 year old girl and a month later he marries her oh my god yeah legal i guess so right i know and back then or maybe the laws i don't know but he it was basically kind of like on a whim because clearly he's like a womanizer and you know um but now he has a 15 year old wife then he starts threatening richie's life saying he's gonna kill him next so he clearly didn't trust that he had this person that shared this horrible secret yeah so you might remember kathy morath who went out with smitty first the neighbor well and no that was it was just another it was

the girlfriend that also yes yes yes now she's richie's girlfriend okay and she starts having weird experiences her family screen doors mysteriously cut um they they report to police seeing an unidentified prowler on their property richie gets scared that smitty's gonna kill kathy next so he decides he needs to keep watch over her house so he sits outside her house all day and all night sometimes he's he walks his dog by sometimes whatever well the family has him arrested for stalking essentially you're not being a hero by being a guard right but there was a whole thing about and we'll talk about this in a little bit there was a whole thing about snitching uh so he's keeping this he's keeping this secret but clearly he's kind of going insane too so basically

the police in this arrest or whatever the he's told to leave town richie is like they they say um i believe it's the judge after he gets arrested they're like go live with your grandparents in ohio you need to get away from this girl we don't care what your reasons were or whatever like clearly this is a problem so they send him to live to stay with his grandparents um but late one night in october of 1965 richie gets drunk and tells his grandparents the whole story oh shit yeah and they don't believe him they think he's just drunk and being crazy which makes him snap and he calls the Tucson police directly wow he tells them the whole story including mary and john's part in aline rose murder and they have him come they basically say you need to come back here so

in Tucson we kicked you out of the city come on back now we understand why you were stopping so in Tucson richie rides out of the desert he basically takes the police out to where he hid the bodies with smitty shows them exactly where gretchen and wendy fritz's remains are and shortly after that on november 10th 1965 the police arrest smitty in his home a few days later mary french and john saunders are arrested as well for their part in aline rose murder even though um aline's body has not been found um but they now have the whole story yeah um both mary and john confessed to their involvement almost immediately mary sentenced to four to five years for being an accessory to murder and john sentenced to life in jail for his part in the murder uh they try to lead the police

to aline's body but they can't find it hmm so prosecutors pushed to have the trial for aline rose murder first because then a guilty verdict there would almost guarantee a guilty verdict in the case of the fritz sisters but the judge orders that the trial for the fritz sisters murders goes first um and that begins february 15th 1966 and in this trial the court hears testimonies from richie bruns mary french um but john saunders pleads the fifth um smitty does not take the stand the trial lasts two weeks and on march 1st 1966 um he's found guilty on both murder counts later that month of march of 1966 he's sentenced to death so aline roe the murder of aline roe that trial begins may of 1967 but this time um smitty adds another lawyer to his team

because remember his parents were rich so they go ahead and hire effley bailey to defend him and that mother of aga um effley bailey you may know he uh was involved in the boston strangler case and sam shepard in the fifties and sixties um he moe effley bailey motions that the judge not consider the death penalty as aline rose body as it hasn't been found the judge denies that motion okay so mary french testifies again she recounts her side of the story telling the court that on may 30th 1964 the day before aline's murder smitty told her that he wanted to kill a girl just to quote see if he could get away with it mary reveals that she was pregnant with smitty's baby at the time and she wanted to make him happy so that he'd man up and be present in the baby's

life by killing yeah well also but then there's a there's a different piece of it that's her story but there's another side of the story that says that actually smitty was like bored with mary and mary had made friends with aline and aline was pretty and of course we remember that mary was frumpy so um he started paying a lot of attention to her so mary may have had uh some kind of cycle you know psychological reason in her mind that it was okay to get rid of this like competitor yeah yeah yeah perhaps i mean it goes in there with the like thing of you're getting rid of the competition and you're trying to do the thing i mean either way she didn't feel bad about sacrificing this 15 year old having her friend like allowing her friend to be murdered and

saying nothing about it it's just it doesn't make a lot of sense it's it's tough it's tough to it's tough for us who read true crime stories constantly to kind of process imagine what people in arizona in 1966 were doing yeah in the mid 60s let's say so basically mary goes on to say that smitty shared a list of three potential victims with her and together they decided that the best choice would be aline roam which is so cold-blooded and horrifying later when mary french gave birth to smitty's baby that child would be stillborn so it was in this horribly ironic awful way all for nothing yeah if that if she really is right is honest and saying that that's the reason she didn't mary told aline the four of them would just go out drinking in the desert uh believing her

friend aline was excited to go and so that night while mary sat in the car smitty and john restrained aline um they testified smitty told john to rape her but he wouldn't do it and so smitty does and then beats her in the head with a rock and kills her after mary's testimony john saunders once again pleads the fifths the prosecution reads john's preliminary hearing testimony allowed to the jury instead and then the court takes a recess and when they come back effley bailey surprises everyone by announcing smitty is ready to plead guilty to murder in the second degree the trial ends with smitty making his guilty plea on may 10th 1967 uh so at least in that case effley bailey's like hey buddy we're not doing this like it's only gonna get worse from

here yeah a few days later smitty motions to fire his lawyers and tries rescinding his plea the judge asked smitty to submit to a psychiatric exam and he refuses great he then with right he then withdraws his request for a new trial and the police stands he's once again he's sentenced to death a month later on june 23rd 1967 smitty tells the sheriff that he'll show him where aline's body is buried just pretty big um he says that if they can see aline's skull listen to this fucking reasoning this is you think maybe he's doing it because why why would you not like it's a thing we're always talk about we're just like just tell them what they need to know we're past this point right yeah you're going to jail but here's his lot his reasoning he says that if they see aline's skull

they'll see that there's no fracture disproving the conclusion that smitty bastard in the head with a rock and thereby proving his innocence aha oh my god dude yeah of course it's ridiculous because he knows where the body is that's implicating him right there um yeah and and especially after the fact that john and mary could not find it when they went to bring the police to show the that yeah the body you know so either way they want to find aline's body so they take him out to the desert in cuffs he leads the police to harrison road which sits on the outer part of eastern tucson and there's smitty locates a spot with the team and the team starts digging um and it's the same area that john and mary had taken the police before but they learned that smitty the

two of them they all learned that smitty had gone back after that night of the murder and moved the body my god to a different spot that's why they couldn't find it what the fuck it's a lot of interfering with corpses type of shit that i hope were brought was brought up in the sentencing because it's clearly there's no concern there's no repulsion it's like you just keep going out and doing i mean i guess that's insane he murdered these people in cold blood so obviously he doesn't care but right when they find the body it's bear uh the corpse is just buried one foot below the surface police find that smitty was completely wrong about the skull there's a massive fracture it proves exactly what um john and mary attested to in court and um basically smithy's death sentences

stand until 1971 when arizona temporarily abolishes the death penalty um so his sentence is commuted to 50 years to life so essentially he goes to jail but then there is this kind of cultural after effect um so that article from life magazine was written in 1966 but basically the news of these murders cast this you know a Tucson in this very unfavorable light and they just kind of talking about like that the youth culture there is out of control and that they're all kind of like slackers and criminals and you know um basically the whole the case becomes national news but but the locals find themselves constantly defending Tucson's reputation against this onslaught of stories making you know their hometown look like this den of sin and you know whatever yeah

palo verde high school students actually stage rallies and write pieces in their school paper expressing their opinion they've all been painted as bad kids just because of a few quote misfits um but what was especially disturbing to investigators is how many kids not involved with the murders heard rumors that smitty killed aline roe and the fritz sisters and never said anything never went to the police that's a big deal it's you know what it reminds me of is remember the movie river's edge uh it's it's that yeah yeah it's that it's that thing six of aline and gretchen's classmates knew enough about the crimes at least to warrant going to the police and notifying them about these rumors that were swelling around not one of them did that's that's

dark yeah one student claims that they quote didn't know smitty committed murder but then goes on to say that quote even if i had known i wouldn't have said anything i wouldn't want to be a think oh yeah um richie bruns would later he's you know who's the one who basically broke this story and told police um he recently wrote a book because right after all this stuff happened to him he kind of wrote everything down that was like his side of the story um because of course he had a horrible time in tuson everybody either said like he would go into places and they're like we're not going to serve you get out because he snitched either because he had something to do with it or because he snitched so he couldn't win either way he was he was you

know yeah it's very understandable that these local people would just be like you had your hands all up in this horrible crime a but then this other side of like get out you snitch yeah so here's this this is a really good quote from this article um from the website twosan.com which is where i go for all my news um but this was an article uh when this one so when uh richie bruns book came out well richard now because he's an adult um he titled it eye squealer which is kind of a hilarious title yeah um and basically he was talking about how awful life got for him in that town in both directions um so he tells the story about getting turned away because he he didn't tell the police soon enough right whatever then he says once he was playing pool with his brother

at a bowling alley on south alvernon way and he says quote at the table next to us was somebody i recognized had gone to prison he was this big dude and i thought oh my god i'm in trouble he shot a couple balls and said how you doing richard and he was friendly as hell so here was somebody who was in prison and lived by a strict you don't squeal code and he recognized the difference between squealing on somebody for stealing a candy bar and squealing on somebody who was out there killing girls it was quite a different thing but your average high school kids who grew up with things and had these wonderful jobs they'd drive by my house and throw stuff and yell derogatory things mainly about being a rat fuck yeah that sucks yeah at the time there was this kind of

like it was like um marlin brando you know like it was very like that motorcycle pompadour culture where it's kind of like yes exactly and that idea of like being a rat or being a snitch yeah which i don't disagree with in terms of like that in the way he said it is just so perfect though because it's like you have to have a line you have to have a personal moral line in where where you would absolutely like you're not you would absolutely you're not betraying your friend you're trying to help his murder victims it's like a totally different thing and their families and their mothers who are leaving the kitchen light on all night to me yeah snitching is when you get arrested for something and you say i have someone bigger than

me uh that you want so let me give you this information about him so i can get a shorter sentence yeah right whether it's sure or not during smithy's seven-year stint in prison he attempts to escape three times the first two attempts fail on the third he and a triple murderer named raymond hudgens managed to break out they make it to a ranch in tempe which i had a friend he used to live there he says the way you pronounce pronounce it as tempe on this ranch they take four people hostage they end up somehow even even with all that they escape from that and they and they escape without harming these hostages okay they get away from that situation they stop and eat at a sonic drive-in and then they split up and they both go on the run separately um and that's how

those sonic commercials were invented the two dudes sitting in the car talking about how much they love the weird slurpee they're having oh my god um both men are captured a few days later and thrown back into prison um a couple years later smithy tells his fellow inmates that he has leukemia and he doesn't have very long to live which is again a lie he was trying to get sympathy from his fellow inmates which is tragic then on march 10th 1975 smithy gets into a fight with two other inmates and they stab him 47 times holy shit he's taken to the hospital he dies 20 days later on march 30th 1975 at the age of 32 oh my god he's only 32 he's 32 he has burnt out his life like he's just his mom decides to hold a catholic burial for him on the prison in the prison cemetery

but his body is allegedly stolen from the morgue and it never turns up the funeral the funeral is carried out with an empty casket what happened to his corpse please i mean it's horrifying basically if you watch the um the episode of a crime to remember they really talk about that part of teens going bad and the cultural thing of like what these apathetic teens that don't care they care more about being cool than they do about blah blah blah that kind of whole story which is really fascinating and interesting thing what i think they were actually tapping into though because it's 1966 when this life um article comes out it's three years before the cultural like revolution of the 60s you know the of the of the hippie movement so i think they were just kind of

tapping into that first thing of like fear oh all these the believe it to be ever days are over and something else is going on in the streets of america with these teenagers and we don't know what it is yeah they're already starting to you know get parents scared of what their teenagers are going to do right and that the teenagers are like have no conscience at all right which is is such an oversimplification to just say now all teenagers are bad and rebels i mean like it's a ridiculous oversimplification but it's almost like they were tapping into the the beginnings of of this complete sea change in in the way all of american life worked and it wasn't just the teenagers it's like the teenagers are who they wanted to pin it on and talk about and can you

believe them with their street races and their rebellion and their rebels without a cause when there was a way huge your thing happening culturally what's interesting is that i highly recommend especially if you if you like great writing the joys carol oates short story where you going where have you been which she she basically read about these cases and ended up writing a fictionalized version but like uh that's what that short story is about cool and it's award-winning and that is the basically the very rudimentary um story of the pied piper of twosome nice i had never heard of that great job thank you should be fucking hooray our way out of this let's do a little fucking hooray backwards walk offstage with our hat you can't see it because

this is a fucking podcast but i'm doing a hello my baby hat top backwards offstage yeah okay you want to go first sure this one's from morgan underscore cutter my fucking hooray is that my 17 year old little brother got his first job yesterday and then she put the kind of crying eyes emoji yeah or the acid eyes emoji depending on your background he's pretty reserved but he's loved being in the culinary program at his high school and was hired as a cook at one of our favorite lunch spots he he texted me before the interview for advice which literally made my day and then she did the kind of hand typed emoji of a crying guy or a smiling guy with a nose i'm not sure which one but either way i love that i love like i really feel like a shitty

and insane and very difficult as everything has been the idea that people are getting closer to their family members who they might not have really may not have put so much energy into is beautiful it is this thing where like the highs that you there's so many lows and that so the highs mean more you know they're they're like more important you realize what the important things in your life are and you have gratitudes towards so much more than you did before this not that we needed this especially people like when you and vince left my house on sunday or saturday whenever it was i wanted to like hug both of you and cry at the same time hard not to hug people all and not and like just to be like i just it's so nice to look at another person be like hey did

i tell you this and then you gave me the perfect reaction like are you kidding me whatever where it's like all these things we just that used to be no big deal totally now it's like oh i just got my shot of like another expression on someone else's face and like empathy and listening and understanding i don't know just fucking really did it for me oh good it's nice it's nice i'm glad excuse me okay mine is that was the belch of empathy okay this one is um from where they wander here's my fucking hooray i recently turned 30 in a pandemic and finally decided to go to therapy for the first time in my life i started yay i started off the pandemic feeling very thankful for my job slash home stability but things quickly turned sour when my apartment caught fire in

april due to my neighbor's fireplace jesus no i was living out of hotels with my husband and our two large dogs and our cat after a hotel hopping for three plus months we finally found a new apartment and have settled in seems like the perfect time to get my life together i think my 30s will be when i stop collecting traumas and start working on being happy i just hey yeah it's beautiful thank you thank you for normalizing therapy and mental health i spent so many a pandemic night crying and listening to mfm i don't know how i would have survived this year without you aw that's nice well good look i mean jesus that's a that's a load of shit yeah there's a lot to have lots of lots of different loads of shit people are dealing with in these ridiculous

circumstances yeah uh thank god they found an apartment two dogs and a cat and like the fucking days in jesus okay this one um i believe this is from the the fan cult it's the title is dad pride and it's from lacy kins um my fucking hooray is that for the first time in his 68 years of life my dad has finally decided to vote at this election year wow i've always shrugged off his disinterest so it was extremely surprising to me when my stepmom told me that he was working on his ballot i started to cry we've had so many recent conversations about the current political climate and how important is to change the direction of our that our country is headed i knew my dad had a voice to be heard and i'm just so proud that he finally realized it too

oh wow that's amazing progress 68 so much progress because progress you can't ignore it forever well also i think that's you know i was reading this thing today about how it's much more effective you know because there's lots of people that are volunteering and doing calls and whatever but they say it's much more effective when a family member or a friend someone close to the person has a conversation that a non confrontational non non anything but it's basically just about hey here's what i think and i want to know what you think and i actually want to have uh not a fight yeah not a way not a way to work out a bunch of our other shit but a conversation about like what's actually happening in this world not online with strangers

people you don't know but it but a family member where someone else is looking in the face and saying hey this is important just don't do it with toxic people yes because there's another great tweet i read recently uh someone wrote there's no sorry can i just take one second to read this because it's fucking genius and i know i know i have it saved in my legs for sure a woman named francesca ramsey um who on twitter her handle is chesca lee and she wrote resist the urge to explain yourself to someone who's committed to misunderstanding you love that it has 43 000 likes right now yeah it's so genius and so good yep i do too okay one more great this is on instagram it's from hls bell it's like hell's bell

with an extra h and an extra e on the end and stuff yeah sure like a lady's a lady's hell and a lady's bell yeah so this says georgia congrats on a couple days of not drinking my fucking hurry this week is that after hearing georgia talk about this naked mind in january which is a great book i'm listening to again about getting sober and this woman's incredible journey i've stayed sober from alcohol ever since no longer am i waking up with a hangover self-hatred and having to apologize to everyone and wondering where the fuck my car is thank you your recommendation saved my life and helped me live a better life while i still get to live it wow wow so 10 months sober she heard it in january and wow that's incredible it's

him really impressive yeah keep it up i'll try just do what feels good and and and get real about what feels good as opposed to what you've been doing that you tell yourself feels good that's a great point she said is she shoved another nerd's rope into her mouth we have to end on that that was it that was the button i think we're done that was your your last cue card that you pulled up since we planned this whole podcast and great i read my cue card and that's been our show ladies and gentlemen thanks for listening we appreciate you so much yes please um stay safe um if you feel like it stay sober if that works for you oh and stay tuned for the i saw what you did trailer for million daniel listen to it right now you're gonna get a great sample of your favorite new

podcast but mostly stay sexy and don't get murdered goodbye elvis do you want a cookie good boy i'm millie de chirico and i'm daniel henderson and we're the host of i saw what you did a brand new podcast about the fun of watching movies on the exactly right network each tuesday we will pick a different theme like really bad boyfriends great 70s apartments neighborhood creeps movies about the mall and hysterical women who have every right to be hysterical then we pick two films that best showcase it it's like having your coolest single childless chain smoking aunt handpicked movies you've never heard of or always meant to watch this movie is so hilarious in so many interesting ways to me like that that scene where they are going to this party dressed in actual garbage bags

and marina is like got hers tight and belted it looks like a dress and it's got a slit and michelle white michelle williams is literally wearing a garbage bag like she's just wearing a sack bag and this is a moment of such tenderness because it's about virginity and sex and you know marina's like i'm gonna do everything and for her everything includes doing heroin and a garbage bag and you're so right about that we talk about the kinds of things that you do when you're leaving a movie theater with your best friend like who would be the worst movie character to be in a relationship with and guess what they both suck they both suck they both suck that horrible choice horrible choices abound and why are some friendships so mean they both go for him

well let's just say this holly you can tell it's like this guy's up my alley because he's deep and sensitive and he's an intellectual and that's my guy marina though she does she want the challenge does she want the attention like what's your take on why they both ended up sleeping with the guy essentially yeah i think i think with marina it was really vindictive like straight up vindictive but there's a part of her of this character that feels like so hurt to me that she she knows what she's doing but she's so selfish in that need for love that she doesn't care that she's doing it or what's the greatest outfit ever worn on film and most importantly who needs to calm down there's a segment where you could ask a female film programmer that's me millie all of your viewing

questions like what movie should you watch with your upstairs neighbor who only likes british period pieces and will occasionally talk to my horror movie loving grandma you'll definitely build your movie knowledge and fill all of your watch lists if you love movies or sick of falling asleep to the same sitcom every night or just need a break from the daily fresh horrors of the world tune in every tuesday to i saw what you did starting on november 10th and be sure to subscribe on apple podcast stitcher or wherever you like to listen and find us on instagram and twitter at isaw pod for all your double feature needs