My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 253 - Live at the Arvest Bank Theatre in Kansas City (2017)

Episode Date: December 17, 2020

In this week’s former Fan Cult exclusive episode, Karen and Georgia cover the Death of Bethany Deaton and Ray & Faye Copeland. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime, and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook, and listen to True Crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. Hey, what's up Kansas City? I keep meaning to practice that before we come out. I know.

I'm so bad at it. These days I'm doing it where it sounds like I'm being kind of like insinuating something. I don't know. Could be anything. I'm like, I know you guys did something bad. Like, what's up Kansas City? I don't know if that's right. We know the bad things you've done.

We've been studying them and researching them poorly for days. Hours even. Studying, pasting, Wikipedia, the fuck out of things. That's all true. Sorry, but this is kind of a big deal, right? Why not? Yeah. And you're right here.

I know. Like you're right here. I feel like they added a row and you guys are just like in the back of the plane. You guys, you brought your own chairs. You're like, we're with the painting company. We're just going to be one moment, 25 folding chairs, second row is livid. That'd be awesome. They brought the rug.

They're the rug company. Thank you so much. This is a gorgeous piece. It's so nice. Oh, it's the history of Missouri right on this road. It starts over here with the founding of the state. I don't know what year it was and why. You remember?

You don't want to go over it again. This is not a history lesson because we don't have dates and places. We have nothing to offer you. No. But moody. I'm sorry. I don't have my glasses on. Is there a bride sitting in the audience?

Please stand up for one second. She has a, it's a beautiful bride and it says the husband did it on her page. Oh shit. Are we going into a cosplay area we've never been in before? Or what I'd like to think is that you just got married and then right up in the ceremony you're like, I'm going to be back in two and a half hours. Is that your bachelorette party? Wow.

Two months ago. Two months? Your date is over girl. Now you're just a wife. Hey, wait a minute. Why was representing? I made Vince go to the cart because I lost my bra. And I was like, hey, can you go check my bra?

And then I was like, is this a tour manager job or is this a husband job? Yeah. Because if you went and said go get my bra. They would take me to court. It's not allowed. That's true. It's simply not allowed. Yes.

Also that's funny because that's something that happens to you in real life. That it was my bra. And that's something that would happen to me in a terrible nightmare. We're like in the middle of about, I'm about to go on stage and I'm like, I'm not wearing a bra. Fuck. This show cannot go on. See, if I'm not wearing a bra, I look like a little boy. Uh huh.

So it's not like I need a bra to, I don't know, it's just a different mindset. It's more of a presentational thing as opposed to holding back this time. Exactly. Yeah. Yes. Because last night, this has been a broad issue weekend for me. Because this, so this dress, let me tell you about it. It's made by...

Take a walk, take a walk so all the people can see it. So I want... George has invented a new way of modeling and I think it works. I think it's fierce as they say. Arm pits. Just arm pits. Arm pits out. All of her fashions are arm pit based.

But sorry, I interrupted you. I wish you would. Uh, this is by Karen's favorite poet and feminist, Jessica Simpson. Yes. She is a leader and a visionary. Get behind her. That's right. 100% of her proceeds from the stress that I didn't buy go to Jessica Simpson.

The Jessica Simpson foundation that teaches her about star kiss tuna. Remember? Remember that old thing from 97 years ago? That's what you're going to get here. Old references. Just look. Old like a VH1 reality show references. Hold on your hats.

From a better place and time. And, oh yeah, so she makes these dresses and it's for people with boobs. Even if it's like a small dress, people who are smaller that don't have boobs are just, she's just like, I bet everyone has them. Yeah. So I had to like stuff this dress. And so I came out last night and I had like double D boobs. Because they were stuffed to the fucking hills.

They were happening. Yeah. And then I took the cutlets we learned out. Yes. Left them on stage. They're gone. Did those cutlets come with the dress or do you own cutlets? I own them.

Okay. Because vintage dresses, again, in tiny ways, big boobs, you have to fill them out. Yeah. I'm cheapest fucking. I won't get anything altered. I just won't. Or fake boobs. Just fucking kick out that 15 grand or however much they cost.

Right. I think that's like the low, I think it's a Groupon boob job. Yeah. Don't splurge. Let's talk about this fucking thing. There she goes. Thank you. Show that rug.

Show the rug. Work it was. I went all the way off the rug. Thank you. I, God, I wish I could explain my clothes. I've given up on dresses. But not in a, I was having a lot of fun with them. And then we stopped touring for a little while.

And when we started again, the first show that we did, I just brought the last dress. I had worn not accounting for the time in between there where I had been eating fast food. Like it was my passion in life. And so I went to put the dress on. It was like, and then I, so for that show, I was like, look, I simply can't wear my dress. And then once I was up here in my regular clothes, I was like, I'm just wearing my regular clothes.

It's so fun. Don't know why you, you can do this for life. I mean, but it was very celebratory kind of like, it's a big deal to us to be here. So I shouldn't wear my pajamas, but it just turns out that that's what I want to do. You fucking did your hair. Listen, great. Looking listen to your hair. I couldn't have more eye shadow on.

I'm doing a lot of neck up shit right now. It's just where I am. And I'm not going to apologize. And you shouldn't either. It's very stress. It's a stressful time. It's a stressful time. We're all stressed.

Tell me about your boots and the airport incident. So when we left to come here, all of our friends, and of course our tour manager, Vince, told us, yes, the greatest tour manager on the road today. He let us know that we were going to be leaving LA, which was around 78 degrees with fires on all sides. Every, everything. Just a circle of fire. It looked like Sauron.

Is that right? No. It's the reference I'm trying to make. I don't know. Was that right? Oh, okay. Is that Game of Thrones? That's close, close, close, close.

Same outfits. It's Lord of the Rings. It's what? Lord of the Rings and Return of the Jedi, whatever. At 21, I stopped pretending for guys that I gave a shit about fantasy. It's just like, no, I don't want to sit through this. I want to watch 13 going on 30 again. Goodbye.

It's a classic film. So Vince was like, we're leaving here in this temperature, and we're going, it's 20 where we're going. And this is the kind of work he has to do, because we would just come back to y'all. He has to be like, here's how degrees it's going to be. Here's the time you need to leave for the airport. Here's what day you're leaving tomorrow. No flip-flops.

No flip-flops. I had to call people that I knew traveled across the country often and were wealthy. And I was like, can I borrow your nice coat? Can I borrow things? So I like rounded up a bunch of warm, I mean cold weather clothes. But then I was like, I'm getting out. I'm not going to borrow shoes from anybody. So I went to the designer shoe warehouse, which you guys have those here, right?

So what I always forget, it seems like the best idea, because it's very convenient. But what I always forget is the reason that shoes are at the designer shoe warehouse is because they're broken and they don't work. And people in department stores were like, what the fuck is this neon tennis shoe with a heel? Fuck you. And they throw it over their shoulder. And then someone comes and picks it and drives it over to the designer shoe warehouse. You hate to admit it, you know?

Yeah. But you want to shoe, you just want to pay $9.99 and pretend it's going to work out. So I bought these beautiful fleece-lined boots. And then when we actually landed in the airport bathroom, I changed from my slip-on shoes with no socks into these. But they weren't made to hold human feet. You hadn't tried them on, right? I had not tried them on.

Of course not. I love to live on the edge. That's what you got to know about Karen. There's no way you tried it on before you bought it. No fucking way. I love in department stores and girls that work in department stores will come up and be like, can I get a dressing for you? I'm like, never.

No. Me too. None of my business, whether it fits or not. I have to try things on, but I'm so claustrophobic that I just change in the middle of the store. I find like a corner mirror and I have like a weird t-shirt on and just think, okay, anyways, go on, that's boring. Well, no, but you're, because you're a bit of a nudist. I am.

You have a touch of the nudism. I just do. Okay, go on. We're oppositesies. Now, trying to put these boots on in the bathroom stall in the St. Louis airport, it took me fully 10 minutes, a full on 10 minutes. They probably thought I was like dying of appendicitis or something. And I couldn't, like you couldn't, you can't slip your, there's a, there's a hard left turn

inside the shoe that my foot can't take. I'm just saying sales, their sales shoes are to be avoided. You know, it'd be great as if you had not removed, and I haven't seen you without them, these pants and these shoes, this entire fucking truck. I'm just sleeping. I haven't seen you without them. I'm sleeping in this ninja outfit every night on top of the blankets. Yes.

They'll never find me. They'll never detect me. Look at these flowers. Oh yeah, thank you so much. They're from one of your local florists, Beko. Beko Beko. Beko. Yeah, there you go.

Look at them. They smell really good. Thank you. Lauren, Krista, Rachel. Thanks guys. Classy you guys, classy. They smell good. They said, I think you might be sick of murder, so I got you flowers.

Like at a funeral, and no, never sick of murder. These are the flowers I want at my funeral. Just every single thing is death related. Okay, I'm done spinning those. What else do we have? To the Ozarks today. Oh, we went to Ozark land like you recommended. They were like, no, we would have told you to run.

It was pretty great. I mean, the shit that they were advertising on the side of the wall. How could we not stop? What was it? We were going to buy a plaque that would only have taken a broom and had no purpose except for to like to hang it in your sassy kitchen. What did it say? It said something, something, something, something.

It said... It just said two things. What were the first two? It was like good times and bikini lines. Good times and tan lines. Good times and tan lines. I mean, who in this world doesn't appreciate? I feel like because we're from Los Angeles, we don't appreciate how great tan lines are.

But here you guys are like, I want a fucking tan line. Give me a tan line. That means vacation. Yeah. But we bought a present that you guys are going to be privy to later. Yeah. For whoever does the hometown murder. That's pretty exciting.

I want to do the hometown murder now because I fucking want it. And I'm like, why didn't we buy more? It's, let's just say it's a timeless piece that we got at Ozark Land. Yeah. Along with some taffy. I did the dumb thing of like, they have like a joke, like a, you know, like gag gift section. And I was like, oh, I'll get my nephews, like seven, some gag stuff, even though I don't think you're supposed to do that anymore.

It's like bullying and like gag gifts or like... Oh really? We can't have gag gifts anymore? I know. Some nice garlic gum. Come on. Well, I once asked him in front of everybody. We were at like lunch and I was like, Micah, who's the stupidest kid in your class?

And my brother was like, Georgia, you don't do that. I was like, oh. Was he all like, everyone's smart the same? No. He was like Ricky. He knew. He fucking knew. So I'm like, and also my brother bullied, my brother broke an egg over my head when I was a kid.

So he's kids getting gag gifts and he's going to use them on his dad. Amen. So I, they had the gum, like the looks like Wrigley's fruit chew and then you go to take it and it zaps you and I was like, I bet these have been here forever and they don't work. So I did it to myself on accident. I went, I bet this, I'm going to try it. And I was like, it was real. It worked.

How stupid is that? But I did it to myself. Do you think it was kind of a high voltage gum? Was it a good zap? It was a great little zap. Really? Yeah. My brother's going to get it.

Yeah. Yeah. Happy Hanukkah, fucker. From Ozarkland. There was, I have to say, and I have a picture of this to prove it. The best graffiti I've ever seen in a bathroom. In Ozarkland. In Ozarkland was a Jewish star someone had drawn and it said, we are not alone.

On the telephone. Oh, Missouri Jews. Are you okay? Is everything. The one guy's like, we're not. Well, good news. You're not alone. Go to Ozarkland.

We meet there every Wednesday. In that bathroom stall. In the bathroom stall. Also, underneath that in a different color pen, someone had written for a good time called Jesus. And I was like, you know what? That's disrespectful to everybody. That doesn't work out in any direction.

You're saying Jesus is a slut? I don't think so. What kind of phone do you think Jesus has? Phone? iPhone X, probably. I think like, I think he has an old wall phone. Like an old rotary phone that he walks all the way around the world with a really long cord.

Oh my God. Somebody paint that for me. Don't fucking ask for things. He's proud, man. You murdering us. You're the people that could do it. Someone at the meet and greet last night gave us this beautiful gift of a doll walking towards us, not saying a word with a 1970s knitted clown doll.

And then she hands it. She was lovely, don't worry. She didn't kill us. Then the clown was smiling and she said, turn it over and you turn it over and there's a face on the back of its head and it's like angry or has different angry feelings. It was crying. It was crying. I don't know.

It had knitted silver tears on its cheeks. It was haunted. It was the most haunted item in America. And you could tell that it's like 40 years old, but it looked brand new. So some aunt who gave to her nephew not knowing what kids like because she was like, I'm not having kids. And the kid was like, I hate it. No one ever loved this doll.

Yeah, they were like, mommy put it away. And then it went up into the attic forever and right next to the Ouija board and then it started touching the Ouija board. Yes. Hold on. And then the devil came. Wait. And then Jesus called and was like, not today, bitches.

There you go. Well, it's going in the fucking pod lock. So my house is now haunted. Yep. That's the next podcast. Yeah. Speaking of podcasts. Yeah.

This is my favorite murder. Oh. Thanks for. Thanks. That's Karen Kilgera. And this is Georgia Hard Shark. Right. These are the faces of the voices that you've been listening to.

And then we turn around and are crying. Crying. Oh my God. Oh, come on, honey. That's for when we start doing the dance routine at the end. Oh God. Haunted doll dance routine. Who's ready?

No one's ready. No one is ready. No one's ready. My uncle, Michael Hardstarr came to the show last night, lives in St. Louis. He's an older gentleman, lovely man. And he came backstage afterwards. I was like, I didn't know what to do. I don't know how to sit.

I didn't know what to expect. I knew you had a podcast. I thought, they're not going to be dancing, are they? Like you just didn't know at all. And then we're talking about boners on stage and stuff. Yeah. Uncle Michael. It just slipped out.

Although now that we're talking about it, I feel like a dancing podcast might be insanely badass, because it'd just be like distant music and then the sound of feet. And then you just kind of fill it in of like, this is so great. Puffing and puffing a little. Yeah. Thank you so much. Here's our next one. Wait.

I see. This one will be slow. Pot-a-boo, right? Stephen's not here. Yeah, sorry. Thank you guys for coming. He can't come on the road because he adopts too many cats. You just stopped too much to like pick up kittens.

He's like, you know how every once in a while, like every six months, well not anymore, but used to be every six months in the news, you'd hear a story of a guy that had like 15 turtles shoved up his sleeves trying to get across the border. Oh my God. That's totally Stephen with kittens. He's just like, Stephen. He's got a fake leg and he just shoves it with kittens. Stuffed with kittens.

He didn't even need to have his leg amputated. No. He just wanted a fucking place to put kittens. He did it for the love of kittens. That is dedication. He would do that. Let's spread that rumor. He's perverted for a good time called Stephen in his leg.

He's perverted for kittens. He's actually not watching my cats this time and I think I saw his heart break in his eyes when I told him that our friends were staying in town at our place and I just saw it. And I know he's like watching the Instagram being like, they're not going to be better than me. And I can see, you know, this is fucking nice. He's bummed. He misses Stephen.

Yeah. Never again. I love the way we talk about Stephen as we do a recorded show as if he's never going to listen to it and he's the first person that hears all of this. Before you guys even, it gets in your ear. He's already heard that. He's on it and has edited out this part every time. All I want is a sip of that beer, that's honest.

I'm going to be honest. Kind of rude. Just right in arm's leg. Should we sit down? Yes. I'll get you away from that beer. That's a big screen. Yeah.

Big stuff, you guys. Let's put this here. Okay. What's at the table? What's at the move? What's at the move? The water there. I'm going to do this.

Nope. Okay. Hey. Can I get an Allen wrench for this chair? Oh no. Just tighten up some nuts on this chair a little bit. Are you going to fall? I have chair fear.

Oh no. Is it wobbly show the crowd? No. Is it wobbly? It's a little wobbly. It might be me. He might be wobbly. It might just be me.

Don't show them this. Oh yeah. That's secret. Okay. That's for later. You'll see it. Flowers. Are you guys ready to talk about some murder?

Yeah. We should let everyone know this is not, in case you don't know yet, this is not Les Miserables. You went to the wrong place if that's what you thought it would be. It's not a Mannheim steamroller's Christmas concert. Yeah. But if you go that way, I don't know. That way you'll find that, and the other way you'll find that.

So this is not what this is, unless Les Miserables is a true crime podcast I didn't know. Well it is kind of. It kind of is. There's a pretty true crime right at the beginning. Okay. And then the crime of war. Anyhow, it's a comedy podcast where we talk about true crime and sometimes that bums people out.

So if you're the kind of person that gets bummed out by stuff like that, get the fuck out of here. I'm joking. I'm joking. That's the comedy part. I'm joking. If you do get bummed out, don't worry. A little hilarity.

Well, it's true. But not because of the crime. You never. Yeah. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping, and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year.

Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal, and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy Hello Fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes, and amazing desserts. Karen, January is going to be my month for Hello Fresh. I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much.

I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and Hello Fresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. So get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20.

Goodbye. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candice DeLong and on my new podcast Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths, and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly

arrested Stockton Serial Killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia, and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Today, Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast, Killer Psyche Daily, in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. You go first tonight?

Yeah, I'm first. I'm first. Yeah. And I have to say, yeah, this case is fascinating to me. I first saw it on an episode of 48 Hours, came in in the middle half, and was so hypnotized by the subject that was being interviewed on the story and his personality and what was happening that I couldn't stop watching it, and I became obsessed with it. And then Stephen, who sends us suggestions of cases that we could do, sent me this suggestion

and I freaked out because I didn't realize that it was in this area. So I don't know if you guys know about the International House of Prayer and the Tyler Deaton Bethany Neatham case. I don't know it. Fuck, dude. Okay. Buckle the fuck up. Now this is technically not a murder.

And I have to say that for legal reasons. When I was researching this, there's an amazing Rolling Stone article that is called Love and Death in the House of Prayer by a man named Jeff Teetz. That's an amazing article that's incredibly thorough, but I highly recommend that you read. But at the beginning of this Rolling Stone article, there is this disclaimer, which I'm going to read to you so it also counts for me. Because when I read it, because I was like, oh, this is amazing.

I'm just going to retell that 48 hours that I love. And then as I read this, I was just like, holy shit. I think some people wrote some cease and desist letters or something. I don't know. I can't wait. So at the top, at the very top of this article, it said, editor's note, in October 2014, nearly a year after this story appeared, the case against Michael Moore, you'll meet him later, not Michael Moore, the documentarian.

God, you guys. You heard him, was dismissed. Basically they say, that's a long quote from a lawyer. You don't really need. OK, with a trial no longer eminent, the prosecutor's office and Moore's defense attorneys released critical pieces of exculpatory evidence for the first time. When we reported this story a year earlier without access to this new information, we presented the criminal case against Moore as entirely credible, Moore implicated Tyler

Deaton in the alleged crime, and we presented that implication as credible as well. But the evidence available now suggests overwhelmingly that Bethany Deaton committed suicide and that Moore and Deaton are innocent of any crime. We now know every verifiable statement Moore made to the detectives was either proven false or was contradicted by the evidence. After a confession, investigators discovered no additional evidence that a crime had occurred, and both circumstantial and forensic evidence point to suicide. We urge readers to reconsider this story in light of the totality of the evidence, a comprehensive

account of that evidence, including more detail on Moore's confession, and the suicide is presented below in the original fucking article, doesn't say fucking. OK. Wow. Do you guys get that? Did you write that down? We have a court reporter that's writing it, so don't worry. So that felt important to say, but...

I don't follow any of that. Right. Perfect. Because I realized I kind of buried the lead there, but... Spoiled it? Well, not really though, because the story itself is fascinating. Whatever the truth of it is, I'm not sure where we are with that right now. We'll decide at the end of this, the truth.

Right. OK. So what we're going to announce, Bethany's original name is Liedlin. Does anybody know if that's incorrect pronunciation? Liedlin? Then that's it. OK. So I think it's right.

OK. I just don't want to say it wrong. OK. So Bethany Liedlin grew up in a devoutly Christian home in suburban Dallas. She and her four siblings were all homeschooled. She read every Dickens novel, except for one by the time she was 13, and upon finishing high school, she won a scholarship to Southwestern University in Georgetown, Texas, near Austin. Did she ever finish that last Dickens model?

We will never know. Why didn't they? Why did that get included? She was... Ms. Aron. Right? Right? Every old book is written by Charles Dickens.

The end. She was a genuinely talented writer, and in this article, if you go read it, they have chunks of her writing. She had a blog for a while, and she really is...her writing is really, really good and very original. I was super impressed by it. So she became the pride of Southwestern's writing center, and she eventually would graduate magna cum laude.

But in 2007, she was invited to join a prayer group that was started by a fellow student and Christian named Tyler Deaton. So according to Tyler, right before he was about to begin his junior year at Southwestern University, while he was standing outside Barnes & Noble, waiting for the midnight release of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, God commanded him to form a worship group. In line. He just got bored. He got bored and started hearing the voice of God.

So apparently that summer, he had been doing missionary work in Pakistan, and he claims that while he was there, he saw a number of supernatural things occur, one of which was a young boy who had one leg acquired his second leg. And the word used is acquired. Stephen. Oh my God. It was fucking Stephen. That like, that's the singularity taking place, and then I die on this stage.

I was just like, what, the biggest circle has come full. Okay, so they name a couple other supernatural experiences that he claims to have had, and a lot of them seem to be maybe intuition, or maybe just some of them are like things like he would command birds to fly away and they would, where it's like, so if you say something in a loud voice, birds fly away, I've seen that happen before to people without powers. One of them said one time people, neighbors were playing music loudly and Tyler yelled Jesus and the music stopped.

And it's just like, well, you just sound like the angry neighbor that wants them to turn the music off. That doesn't, that's not religious specifically. No, I'm going to need more than that to join. So anyway, he came back to America and he wanted to see these supernatural things happening here in America. He wanted, he wanted more of that in his life. And so of course the answer came outside of Barnes and Noble.

God said to him, what you just did in Pakistan. So apparently he, he, it was him who acquired the second leg for the boy. What you just did in Pakistan, you're going to do at Southwestern. And the Lord told him who should be in this prayer circle that he was supposed to start. A guy named Justin, a girl named June and Bethany Liedlund. So Tyler starts the group with those four people. They're all Christians. They are all at the small university together.

So aside from, when they would get together, aside from Bible study and praying together, they would spend hours discussing Harry Potter books and films, which they approached with a quote religious devotion, a guy who joined after the initial four. His name is Bose Harrington. And he, he, he was the person who talked to this reporter the most in Rolling Stone. And he said that the books few quote fueled our sense of being on a divine mission. They also supported Tyler's obsession, the paradigm of good and evil. So Tyler had been a champion debater in high school and he applied those skills to his

religious pursuits in college. He believed that he was right. And anyone who didn't share his beliefs, which would be kind of evangelical Christians believe was, was ignorant. And his senior quote in the Kallal in high school yearbook from Corpus Christi, Texas read, be intolerant because some things are just stupid, new shirt, lawsuit. I love the God, I beg God's paging through that yearbook and he reads that and he's like, I'm going to talk to this guy.

This is, this is who I want to start sending messages through. I was going to do the guy who quoted Led Zeppelin, but no, I'm going to do this guy instead. No, everyone's heard that one. Yeah. Okay. But this, this ability to argue this, the logical thinking and this passion and dedication also made him a very effective evangelist. The four person prayer circle soon grew to have over 20 members.

And in that 48 hours episode, Tyler says they interview him and I highly recommend that you watch that if you haven't seen it already because it is in a, he's an amazing individual and now he clearly went on that show to prove his innocence and to, to prove that he didn't have anything to do with Bethany's death. I guess I should just say that. So on that, in that interview, he says, my gift and something that is also a curse is that I'm charismatic, I'm charismatic, I've owned that from the beginning, I'll own it to the end.

I can be electric and magnetic. I'm glad he's owning it. He is owning it. No. What you say is I'm gassy. I've been gassy from the beginning and I'm gassy from the end and I'm owning it. Look, I'm owning it. And that's what you own.

You don't own. I'm beautiful. I'm so gorgeous. Look, look, people have accused fine, I'll take it, hauntingly beautiful and electric and magnetic. But he was also conflicted because from, from, since he can remember, he had homosexual impulses that he could not control and he felt very conflicted about that because it did not line up with his evangelical Christian upbringing or beliefs that he held himself.

He told friends that he knew that there was a connection between this, his interests in these, because he also liked shit, what's the other, the Narnia books. Yes. Thank you. The Chronicles of Narnia. I was so close. I mean, I was fucking... V.C.

Andrews. Oh, it's still in Georgia. I have, I have the audio, I'm still listening to it on the audio book because it's hard to take. But oh my God, some of the phrases that those, that they use in that book, get my sweet Adriana, if anyone's reading along. I don't know if anybody noticed this at one point near the, near the beginning, I think she's describing Vera, the cousin, and she says, clumsily clumbering down the hall.

Clumbering's not a word, is it? Okay. And she basically told his friends that he knew he was obsessed with these fantasy novels and Harry Potter and witchcraft and all these things. Bethany, in that this, as the prayer group gets bigger, Bethany invites her friend Micah Moore into the group in 2007. They had met in an English class, they hit it off, they were really good friends. He told her a story about dropping acid and having visions of angels and demons fighting

over his soul. And so she's like, I think you should come to our prayer group. That sounds like acid. Yeah. Right? Like, yeah. It could be that or it could be like one time I took acid and then it was just goofy space spinning and spinning and spinning.

I think you should come to Disneyland. I can't see that goddamn dog again. So she believed that Micah was a lost soul in need of saving. There are many of these people on the Southwestern campus and this prayer group's job, they slowly began to believe that their job was to save these souls. So in December 2007, Tyler, his cousin told him he should go to a seminar at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. And it's a charismatic Christian movement based here in Kansas City and a nearby suburb

of Grandview. And the people that go to this church, maybe some of you are here, close your ears for what she's about to say. You don't think about these things until you're saying them out loud into a large group of people. Yeah. I don't think this podcast would like exist if we had to have said every episode in front of a bunch of people, you know?

No way. There's something about the comfort of my living room. Oh, just those cats staring at you and no one else. Stephen. But basically, this is the tenet and it's their, you know, this isn't editorial. This is a fact. Their belief is that the second coming will be soon and that God needs our help on earth to return Christ to earth by fighting the Antichrist.

So this is all a very eminent issue, they believe. So they also believe that young people will make up God's army and they will fight the Antichrist in a seven-year battle called the Tribulation. And when that's over, Jesus is going to return to earth and then take up a sword and kill all the unsaved people and then the survivors will rule heaven and earth for eternity. Oh my God, I need a nap. That's fucking exhausting shit, man. Just after I say that, I just want to really quickly remind the Jews of Missouri you're

not alone. It just feels relevant for this moment. That means a lot. Does that mean a lot to you? It means a lot to me. Amen. Also, in their teachings, the way that they explain things is the way you should pray and interact with God is you should see Christ as your bridegroom and that your prayer experience

should be one of intimacy with him and there's a lot of strong sexual undertones in the way they worship, according to ex-members who talk to Rolling Stone. And at the International House of Pancake Prayer complex, it's actually brilliant marketing of them because they're just like, you know it, now come over here. You have breakfast, now come over and get saved. And it's like if you're trying to recruit someone, you'd be like, hey, do you want to go to IHOP on Sunday morning? I'd love to.

I'd love to go to IHOP. Oh my God. I love how they have different flavors of syrup and God. I feel like IHOP is the opposite of church. Like in the feeling I have when I think about how much time I've spent in church, staring, starving, hating, then you're in IHOP and you're just like, syrup, blood of love. That's my issue. Now we're talking Catholicism.

We're going to, don't worry, then we're going to go to Hindu, we're going to hit it all tonight. Oh my God, run out the back, okay. So at this complex, the IHOP complex, they play music all the time in cafeterias and the hallways and the prayer rooms. And it's composed by the elders of the church to enhance the ecstatic experience and make it omnipresent. And former IHOPers have talked about being addicted to that music, that when it's turned

off, they become very nervous and irritable, and they also talk about the sedative atmosphere of the prayer room. They all go into a prayer room for hours and hours at a time. And when they leave the prayer room, they become anxious, discouraged, and they often say to each other, I got to get back into the prayer room. So just scientifically, we've got a lot of things here that are matching up with cult practices and indoctrination into the cult and brainwashing. But just in that way of like, hey, turn that music off for a little while.

You know what I mean? Put some Beyonce on, let's have some fucking fun. How about an hour, a solid hour of prayer, and then you go throw a Frisbee for a while? It doesn't need to be four hours. But I'm not in charge. So members of the church prayed all day and night long sessions of mesmeric musical worship, repeating the same phrases over and over for hours at a time. So when Tyler came home, he went there at his cousin's urging, and he went and had it

like a weekend there or whatever. In my mind, it was like a weekend, but it could have been fucking 70 days. But when he came back to college, he told all of his friends in his prayer group he'd had a transformation and that he had been chosen to train God's final army. So things are getting serious. So in spring of 2008, everyone in the group believed that Tyler was an end times apostle and that they had themselves were receiving prophecies from God. So in the stories that you read, these kids are starting to believe they also are being

talked to by God, and then they're telling each other the prophecies. And it truly are things like, God told me a prophecy that I should marry you. And then the other person would be like, well, I don't agree with this prophecy. And everything is becoming very like it's a message from God, it has to happen. Where are the fucking teachers in this whole story? They're in that part of the library no one goes in with the weird magazines that are in plastic. Yeah.

Bad coffee. Yeah. A lot of whispering. Yeah. Nobody really knows what's going on. Okay. So basically, Tyler tells the group that they're all going to move to Kansas City to be closer to IHOP central, and they're like, we're down, we're in, we are soldiers in God's army.

So in early 2009, Tyler and Bethany moved to Grandview, Missouri to begin IHOP six month internship program. So from 8am to 4pm every day, they absorbed biblical analysis theology, and then from six till midnight, they worshiped in the prayer room. Six till midnight is six hours. We're going to sit here for six hours until you understand how much worship that is because it's a ton. So then slowly, the other kids from the prayer group who either were still in school or whatever,

they were slowly moving up Kansas City to move there, and they started a thing called the community. And this was Tyler's idea. They lived in two separate houses, boys in one house, girls in the other. The houses were four miles apart, and then they would meet together in the boys' house when they had had communal meetings. And Tyler was receiving messages from God not only about the coming tribulation, but he also had messages about where people should sit at dinner and how they should dress.

I don't think God gives a shit about that stuff. No. I'm going to go ahead and... That's not what the messages that Tyler was getting said. Okay. All right. Okay. So control, and a lot of you don't think for yourself, I think for you because God told

me. So then the members of the group start kind of cutting out friends and family members who aren't that into what they're doing, of course, because they're oppressing their allegiance to God's army for the tribulation. And then he starts discouraging relationships between them, saying that there are distraction and an offense to God. But he did encourage prolonged affectionate contact, particularly among men, because he said they had been wrongly socialized against it.

So they needed to hug and cuddle, give each other massages, because if you were uncomfortable with another man's touch, then you had a wall in your heart, and you were only experiencing part of God's love and that you couldn't function as a Christian in this way. So then Tyler claims to the group that he has a revelation that his homosexuality is actually a choice. And so a few days later he says, as he's sitting in the prayer room watching Bethany worship. So Bethany had actually had a big crush on him for a long time. It was a big part of why she was such a huge part of this group.

And she had told him that she had a marriage prophecy about him. And when she told him that, he like iced her and was just like, no, and was really cold to her and a broker heart, but she stayed in and she believed that she believed homosexuality was a sickness that needed to be cured in him. And that she was just going to stand by and be patient and basically love him out of it. So one day he announces to the group that he was, in his words, sitting in the prayer room watching Bethany worship, and he felt a giant vat of affection rush over him. That's a direct quote.

Oh, that does not sound very romantic. It's not. I mean, everybody's different, but just a vat spilled all over me, just a boiling, scalding vat of affection, just this. He actually later wrote in an essay, I was experiencing real, passionate, sexual knock me off my feet, pure and glorious attractions for the most beautiful woman alive. So then when they complete their internship there, he asks her out. And in the summer of 2009, he announces to her that he intended to pursue her unto marriage,

which is, I guess, the Bible way of saying it. So of course, she's thrilled. This is like what she was kind of hanging in there and waiting for. And she thinks he's finally seen the light and they're going to be all aligned in the spirit. I just made that up. Are you joining this call right now? And then the idea of Jesus with a sword does kind of make me smile a little bit.

It's just exactly the opposite of how he works in every way. Like yes, you can say that like a fallen angel would come or like there's some, maybe Michael, he was a big fighter, but Jesus isn't going to come and kill people with a sword. That's nuts. He's a hippie. Okay. Look, we all have our own beliefs. Okay.

So here's how they did it. To the group, they think this is a staged relationship and this is why. They went on a date every Tuesday between six and nine and then they spent Friday's baking bread together. That was the extent of how they hung. There was no Netflixing and there was no chilling. It was all. Vince courted me.

Oh my God. Is he in the IHOP? Just Vince baking bread for hours. Okay. Tyler claimed that anything more than that would be subordinating the needs of the group to their own needs. So group first, group first, group first, which is another huge cult thing. He discouraged Bethany from physical displays of affection and they would not kiss until

their engagement two and a half years later. Where is that bat of affection we were talking about? The bat is at a tilt. It's not pouring. It's not a stream or a waterfall of affection yet. She was promised a bat and I'm going to. Okay. So they get married in August of 2012 and in this procession, he sings, come to me,

my beloved. And the groom is singing at his own wedding wrong, right? Wrong. How much would you pay to be at that wedding? So much money. Well, the mother. So there's, of course, the mother is in this 48 hours episodes. Of course, it's tragically sad because essentially her daughter just got taken away from her

and then died in a way that she in no way believes she would do. She's no, as she knew her as her daughter, she would not kill herself. And she says that at this wedding, it looked like this adjoining of these apostolic, like it looked like a religious ceremony about something else as opposed to a wedding of two people that were in love. And she said it was singing at her. He was singing at her. And there was a, you know, of course it was a lot of like the, you know, the leaders of

the army. There was just a lot of shit that was very exclusionary to family and friends, but they were there anyway. So they said that Bethany seemed resolved and serene, resolved at your wedding. Look, look, I'm doing it. Doing this. Fucking doing this. The Jordan Allmans have been purchased and put into little baggies.

There's no going back. I got 1,000 pounds of Jordan Allmans and I'm not throwing them away. Not for you. Not for anybody. But some people in attendance said that they were super uneasy and they were spooked by Tyler's evident power over Bethany. And several of her old friends said they had a deep sense that they were saying goodbye to her for the final time.

Yeah, it's very sad. So members of the prayer group say Bethany showed a marked change when the couple came back from their three week honeymoon. They said that she was really different. She was very withdrawn and she was acting really weird. And she had moved into the men's house, into the basement with Tyler, but she kept coming back to the woman's house and staying there for days at a time. Then on October 3rd, she was temporarily admitted to Truman Medical Center after threatening

suicide, not attempting, but threatening it. So 10 weeks later, on October 30th, 2012, at 9.40 p.m., sheriff's deputies respond to a report of a dead body in the parking lot near Longview Lake picnic shelter number 12. In a tan forward wind star van, in the back seat, deputies find the body of Bethany Deaton. A white plastic trash bag has been pulled over her head and tied under her chin. She's 27 years old at the time. On the console, there's two bottles of Tylenol PM. One is unopened and the other is empty.

Now Bethany, in the time of them being up here and being at this church, she had come back to school and she became a registered nurse, which is, I think, an important fact away to know about this, that she was a registered nurse with access to any drug that she wanted. And to commit suicide by taking one full bottle of Tylenol PM and then putting a bag over your head doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense because her eyes were open and she had inhaled the bag. And if you OD'd on something, you would be out, especially like a sleeping pill over the counter, sleeping pill like that.

She would have been asleep and her eyes wouldn't have been open. So the police were baffled by what they found here because there was also a suicide note next to her, but it just said, I am evil. It just said all the stuff that kind of didn't sound like her. It was written in her handwriting, but it wasn't her voice and it certainly wasn't like any of the writing that they put in this Rolling Stone article in the beginning that's beautiful and very original and a very, very accurate self-expression. She was very good at expressing herself on paper.

And this was like a weird list of I'm bad and wrong and it should just be over. Now she did, her friends did say there was a marked change when they came back from the honeymoon. So who knows? I mean, like there's something could have happened and we don't know. So 10 days after Bethany's body is found, Micah Moore, her friend that she got to join the group who had eventually moved up in 2011, he moved up to Kansas City as well and joined the community.

And when he did, there was a big upset in the men's house and all the rooms switched around and Tyler had basically wanted Micah to move into his room and it was kind of an issue. So anyway, 10 days after the body is found, Micah walks into the Grandview police station and confesses that he killed Bethany. His account is bizarre and salacious, but he knew things about the crime scene that you couldn't have known unless you were there in that van. He also claimed that he did it under Tyler's orders. So basically, he told detectives that over the past few months, Bethany had been dosed

with the anti-psychotic Sarah Quill and that he and several men in the house had been sexually assaulting her when she was out. They thought she would tell someone about it. And under questioning by detectives, two of the men in the house who had recently moved out revealed that they were in ongoing sexual relationships with Tyler. And one of them said this relationship was long term. A force said that Tyler had groomed him to be part of their sexual group. They said he was manipulative and exercised in control over all the members of the household

and he characterized all of their sexual activity as a religious experience. So then two weeks later, after this huge, so when he confesses all of this and then it's suddenly the cops are like, well, that would actually make sense. If someone strangled her in that van, then we know why these things that don't line up with an overdose happened. It's all starting to line up for them. And then Micah Moore's lawyer recants his admission on his behalf. She declares his confession bizarre, fictional and made by a distraught, confused young man.

And then the charges are eventually dropped and Bethany's death is ruled a suicide. But very few members of the original group of, I think right around 20, somewhere, 23 maybe, almost none of them believed Bethany would commit suicide. And after her death, the community disintegrates. Everybody leaves, people go back, people's parents come and pick them up. It's the whole thing's over. So now I'm going to read you the speech that Tyler gave at Bethany's funeral. Uh-huh.

As some of you know already, I am a man who is in love with ideas, with crazy paradigms. And then he laughed. And when they brought me Bethany's body, at first I cried. But then I laughed because I said to her, Bethany, if you could see you, you would not like the way you look right now. And last night, we had worship time together very briefly as a group, and it was wonderful and it just showed me the Lord's supremacy over this wretched thing that is death. And I thought to myself, what a crazy paradigm.

And then I thought Bethany would love my paradigm because she loved me and was so fiercely supportive and believed me hundreds of times when I thought I was crazy or heretical. The end. What? Can you imagine following that speech? And now we're just like, we're going to close this down now because everybody has to go to their car and scream at the top of their lungs. Like, what in the living fuck?

What in the fuck? Just really quick, I'm going to read you my favorite part of the 48 hours interview. Because basically the interviewer says, it's Troy Roberts, and he says, I have to ask you this question directly, did you order Micah to kill your wife, and he says, no, no, of course not. I mean, I have read the media, so I know the image Micah is easily manipulatable, manipulatable. That's not a word. What's the implication?

Tyler manipulated him. And then Robert says, I'm asking you if he wanted to please you. And then Tyler gets real, like real haughty, real fast too. This is kind of right where I came in the first time I saw it. I was like, uh-oh, what's happening now? Here we go. Is this that thing of like, they don't know how they're being seen. They think that they think they're smarter than everybody.

And he says, is the reason you're asking me if he wanted to please me is because you think his desire to please me somehow led to foul play. My sense, listening, and definitely the way I think anybody watching would interpret is, did Micah want to please you? If the answer is yes, then he could have done this thing that the media painted him as doing. And I don't think that's fair to Micah or to myself. A simple no. I mean, none of it's fair to Bethany, in my opinion.

No way. Not fucking it. So anyway, there's your super unsatisfying yet insane story of the community. I wish this was the kind of show where then we could just watch that episode together. Because I want you to see it so bad. It's quite something. Let's all go to IHOP. Right.

We'll get the pancakes. We'll sing the same song for six hours. That was fucking incredible. I cannot wait to watch that. So nuts. Okay. My story. And all alleged, alleged, alleged.

Okay. Here we go. Okay. My story is about the oldest people ever sentenced to death in America, Ray and Faye Copeland. Your friends. Everyone's grandfather and grandma here. Right? You're all Copeland's?

Great. You're all Copeland's. We sectioned off a whole Copeland area right down here. This is the Copeland family reunion. Yep. Let me tell you about your fucking grandpappy. Okay. Ray Copeland was born December 30th, 1914.

You're doing great. You're doing great. Thank you. Off to a good start. Yay. 1914. He grew up in Ozark Hills, Arkansas. He dropped out of school after fourth grade to help on the family's farm, as a lot of

kids did during the Depression. Even though it was the Great Depression, for some reason, his parents spoiled the shit out of him and he got whatever he wanted. Like what? A strip of molasses? A string? I don't know. Could I have an orange, please?

This is just what all the things say and I'm going to believe it. Okay. No, I like it. A spoiled child during the Depression is kind of a great thing to think about. He got one boot instead of two boot. His first documented crime was at the age of 20. He stole two of his family's hogs and sold them in another town. So he's setting up his fucking MO.

He just lured them away from all the other hogs when no one was looking. Yeah. And then he's like, hey, you want to buy these? How old was he? 20. Okay. So he continued to practice his love of stealing livestock in the area. So he'd like steal livestock and then sell it to someone else, pocket the money, and

then the person would be like, what the fuck? And then... I think they called that a wrestler, isn't it? A wrestler? No. I think they called that a professional wrestler, don't they? Well, Colgan used to do it all the time. But then he fell in love with a new thing that he loved, forging checks.

Oh. I understand that. Yeah. So that was... It's fun. Yeah. And that was his new thing. And that landed him in county jail for a year, 1936.

In the spring of 1940, Ray made a routine visit to his physician's office, and he meets a woman named Fay Della Wilson, falls in love with her. He was 19 at the time, she and Ray's been raised by a hard-working couple from Harrison, put a little money and raised seven children while living in a dirt floor cabin. Oh, what a fucking bummer, right? Yes. So what if it was like a dirt floor cabin that was like five bedrooms, three bathrooms? Just happened to have dirt on it.

Subway tile. Yeah. It's funny because it always seems like if you were raised in a dirt floor cabin, you're either going to grow up to be like a check forger, like murderer, or you're going to grow up to be like a country sensation. Yeah. Like... Dolly Parton.

Yes. It's Dolly. It's Dolly or these people. Yeah. Not a lot in between. This isn't Dolly's story. Okay. Just FYI.

Do you want to see a picture of Fay and Ray? Sure. Okay, Ray. This is them young and pretty. Hold on. I can't see shit. No, they're murderers. Don't awe them.

Oh, no. They're kind of attractive, right? I take a bad check from him. That's it. Her hair is like what I... That's usually what I rocked in the 90s. Some weird random bobby pin right there where I'm like, it's called style. Let's get drunk.

Okay. So they started dating and in six months they're married. Within a year, I have the first kid and then I wrote, and they're married within six months again because I copied and pasted that. Okay, they have four kids over the next 10 years. Ray keeps up his fucking passion of illegal shit. He sentenced to a year in jail for stealing horses from a neighbor's farm and then the family's like, let's get the fuck out of here.

They're onto us and they moved to Missouri and he's immediately arrested for cattle theft again. Like the second he gets here, he's like, sorry. You guys eat. I'm just real quick. There's just a couple of cows I see across the street that seem like they don't have an owner. Right.

Okay, so he keeps doing this from 1953 to 1966 and they moved from town to town stealing livestock and fucking writing bad checks and doing it again and again. It's totally his thing. Because before the internet or phones or whatever, it was just kind of like you'd hear tell of somebody that stole the cow, basically. Yeah. But then that guy would show up and be like, okay, you can have the horse. Do you need to borrow the horse for an hour?

Like, don't they know when, like, one has a freckle, two horses have, and they're like, that's Bob's horse. Yeah. Well, usually I think it's branding. That's why they brand it. That makes way more sense than any kind of, but no, Bob's horse has shorter bangs. It's not Bob's horse. No.

I mean, I'm like, branding, what a fucking great idea. Shit. Right? During the summer of 1966, the Copeland family go back to Missouri where Ray and Faye successfully purchased a small farm with 40 acres of land in Mooresville, population 130. No, that's not a good number for stealing stuff. No, I know, right? No.

Like they moved to a big city. Yeah. Blend in, dummy. Dude, for real. Faye takes a job at a glove making company. I thought you'd like that. I kept that in for you. I thought you said love making company.

Oh, you didn't know there was a job at Faye? It's a company comprised of the worst word in the English language. We make this word that everyone hates saying. No gloves. What? You mean gloves? Gloves. Yeah.

Gloves. Gloves. Gloves. Gloves. Gloves. Okay, it's a chance. It's good. Good enough.

So Ray's unpopular with neighbors. They call him a bitter elderly man. You know, like an asshole. Wow, what a slam. I know. You bigger, elderly man. Uh, they think he's abusive, of course, to Faye and her children. Um, a real Biden snappy, we're called the owner of a local cafe.

What was it he was supposed to be Biden? giant turtle. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you said a giant turtle. Oh, you're asking me about Ray? Oh, yeah. He's fine. He's got a heart shell. Oh, no, wait. No. Bitey and snappy. Do you want to, I think, I don't think you guys have turned against him enough because I left. Ready? He yelled away at your says. Boo. Fuck you. And he would try to run over dogs in the street. I knew it. I knew you guys would fucking be on my side after that. That's so terrible. It makes me laugh. This is where, okay, so now Ray's like, I'm older. I'm snappier. I'm ready to start actually scheming. Oh, so there's a photo of them old

timey now so we can see what they fucking really look like. Because they were like cute before. They look like a country couple, country singing couple. And now, now. Her right eye is sliding off of her face. And he is not the man I used to know whatsoever. I don't even recognize you. I mean, bitey and snappy kind of fucking looks like a turtle. You'd be like, you'd be like, sir, do you know how to get to the courthouse? Get away from me, you. You're like, what? Why? I don't like it. So I didn't even say anything. I don't like it. I don't like it. Right. Okay. So now they're like scam time. So instead of just stealing, so he was doing this thing where he would go to the cattle auctions by the horse, write

a bad check, take the horse, and then they'd be like, give us the fucking horseback, you idiot. Yeah. And so it didn't work. So instead, he was like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to get hitchhikers and hobos. I'm going to bring them to the cattle auctions and make them by the horses and then take it. Has he ever thought of just getting a job? It's so much easier. Could be a mailman, he could be a fucking hat salesman, or he could be a dentist. Okay. So that didn't work, blah, blah, blah. But then he was like, oh, here's a better idea, a better idea. I'm going to pick up these drifters and hitchhikers. I'm going to say to them, I'll pay you money, stay in my house. And you, I'm going to help you

open a bank account and get your ship together and you're going to buy these cow for me. So you would open bank accounts for them and then they would go write the bad checks. And by the time they figured it out, those hitchhikers and drifters were gone. So they didn't know it was from Ray, even though he always did that. I don't know. Listen, a long time ago. Yeah. Okay. He was a little slower back then. Right. He got away with it a bunch stealing a total of $32,000 with phony bank accounts and bad checks. Wow. Until one of his victims, Gerald Perkins, is interrogated and exposes, raise crime, raise arrested, sent to jail, blah,

blah, blah. When he's released from prison, he does the thing where he's like, well, now I just can't leave any witnesses. Oh, yeah. So then he would have, he would do all the shit. And then after that, he would kill them with a single shot to the back of the skull with a 22 caliber Marlon bolt action rifle. Once the livestock had been purchased and sold off. That's his miss game. Wow. Yeah. Just like he, they'd be like, I'm back from the auction, sir. Yeah.

Walking into the corral like all at their house. Yeah. I think at the house, they would do that or a back, you know, at the barn in the back. Jesus Christ. So this went on for, guess how long? Oh, please. Four weeks. 20 years. No. What?

I mean, 20 years until 1989. But sorry. So it, because no brag, but I was in the four H and I showed sheep at the fair. Thank you. It's one of my proudest accomplishments. And I guess he would go to different auction places then, right? Because these play, they're getting ripped off, even though it's random people like the, the hobo that just took a shower and had his hat replaced or whatever. I mean, they're not, nobody's catching on for that long.

Shit. And they're disappearing too, but they were drifters. They didn't have family looking for them. So it's kind of that perfect thing. And then, and okay. So then in 1989, a 57 year old drifter named James McCormick is like, Hey guys, I was just almost shot and killed by those old timey, like innocent looking old people you have over here, then Ray Copeland. And they were like, we were, we thought he was up to something though. Good. Cause they were like kind of on them at this point with the forging check shit.

So wait, this guy escaped. I think they pulled a gun on him and he fucking skedaddled. Wow. Skedaddled is the perfect word. Since this whole thing is like a weird handicap cartoon for Christ's sake. So they knew Ray's history, so they got enough evidence to get a search warrant for his farm. So they search his farm for like a week and they don't find anything. And then they're like, doesn't he own another farm? And so they go search that farm and then

they don't find anything. Just kidding. They, a week long search. Okay. Turns up three bodies on a nearby farm in Ludlow. Three corpses were buried in the barn and shallow graves. They'd all been shot in the head with a 22. They were identified as Jimmy Dale Harvey. He's 27. Paul Cowork, he's 21 and John Freeman, 27, all transients who had last been seen working for Copeland. So young too. I know.

And later investigators uncovered another corpse in the same barn. Wayne Warner, who's a drifter who spent his last month's moments with Ray Copeland. And the final body is Dennis Murphy, 27, another one of Copeland's business associates, whose remains are found in a well on another farm. Also found in the Copeland home with these two was a list of 24 names of farm helpers. And the list is written by Fay. And they find the right, the rifle used to shoot the men and five of the murder victims that Fay had written had X's next to them. And it's each one who had been killed.

Whoa. She just fucking X them out. Well, so she could keep track. I mean, look, she's a business lady. So wait, were they people that they were going to kill? I think people that had worked for them at some point. Oh, okay. And the X's were the people that they had killed.

So the five murder victims had X's next to them, as did seven more people who were never found. Whoa. Seven plus five is 12. Yeah. And I'm like, who the fuck? You. Who lives there right now? Go dig in your backyard.

Oh my God. It's got to be McMansions at this point, right? Dig, dig, dig. Well, here's something really disturbing. Okay. The most disturbing piece of evidence that showed that Fay was in on the whole thing was that she had made a handmade quilt out of the dead victim's clothing. No. Fay.

Fay, I want it to be on your side. Yeah. I want it to be on your side. And that's the gift for the hometown murder. And you have to put it on your bed. Fuck. I know. Is that disturbing?

That's disgusting. I know. And insane. These people are, they're, because they have three farms. You can buy quilt material. You cheap bastards. All right. So creepy.

Yeah. Okay. So weird. It's Ed Geeney. It is. Fay's offered a deal if she would help find the additional bodies, but she was like, I didn't even know he was killing anyone. Oh. Yeah.

They were arraigned on five counts of murder on November 1st, 1990. Fay, who's 69 at this point, goes on trial, says that Ray committed the murders without her knowledge and that she had suffered from battered women's syndrome. But there's all the evidence against her, like her fucking handwritten list with her handwritten X's and the quilt, you know? Right. And in 1990, she sentenced to death by lethal injection for four of the murders in life without prison for the fifth. So she's like the oldest woman ever to be convicted or to be sent to death. Shit. But wait.

On March 7, 1991, 76-year-old Ray went to trial. He's found guilty of all five murders sentenced to death as well. He tried to plead insanity, but everyone was like, bullshit, dude. You can't plead insanity when you've been committing crimes for 92 years. Consistently, you clearly got over it at some point, if you ever were. Yeah. And then, apparently, after he got convicted, he never asked about Fay again. He never fucking acquired us to how his wife was doing.

He was using her for 60 years. I guess so. Damn. Yeah. Bitey snappy motherfucker. So although they were both convicted to death, Ray died in 1993 of natural causes while waiting to be executed. And in 1999, Fay's, so all of these women's groups, you know, argued about the batter women's syndrome, which is like, we don't really know.

Fay are enough. Fay enough. I don't know. Yeah, we don't. You don't know. Yeah. You don't, something terrible things were happening on that farm. Right.

For sure. So her sentence is commuted to life in prison. And she, she was no longer a threat when in 2002, she suffered a stroke. So she is paroled. She was paroled and moved to a nursing home in her hometown of Harrison, Arkansas, where she died of natural causes in 2003 at the age of 83. Wow. And there's a photo of the five guys that we know where the victims.

Yeah. And that is your fucking friends, Ray and Fay Copeland. One. Wow. That's intense. Old people. Farm stuff. Old people killing.

Also farm stuff. You know, like that's why all farms are like at the end of a long road set back away from people. Let's change things. So farms have to be like next to each other, close to the road and next to each other. Well, the houses have to be real close and then you can just let your, your animals get, go do what they want back behind. Right.

Can we show you guys a photo of this? Oh yes. Before we, because we're so, we're so in love with ourselves for picking this, this prize for the hometown. Can we have a still of what it is? That's the lid. Okay. That's the lid of this gorgeous jewelry box, valued at over 20.

There's Vince. That's Vince everybody. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a box. It's full of candy. We wrote some shit in it. It's amazing. Okay.

It's fun. Who, okay. Who's not drunk. Yeah. You can't be drunk. Has a quick hometown. Am I picking or you picking? It's, you're picking because you've been on a roll.

Get up here quick. Sorry. There's Vince. Go to Vince. I don't want to pick people in the middle of the aisle. I always do that. Yesterday I picked a pregnant girl in the middle of the aisle and we didn't realize she was pregnant.

Karen goes, hurry up. I was like, pick up the pace. She's rolling down the aisle and I was just like, come on lady. I'm not pregnant. I'm not pregnant. Oh hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi Brooke. Hi. Hi. It's Brooke everybody. It's Brooke. Go right now. It's Sarah for Brooke. Hello.

Don't not clap because you didn't get picked. Okay. Where are you from? I'm from a little town called Sedalia. It's like halfway between. Nice. They all came tonight. Randomly somebody from Sedalia sitting right next to us.

Oh my God. We didn't even know they were coming. Sedalia strong. Hell yeah. Sweet. You like murder. Okay. So long story short.

I live halfway between Kansas City and St. Louis. This is actually. Oh sorry. The story from St. Louis. Okay. Current day happening right now. Have you guys heard of Pam Hupp? We just did it last night.

It's my only hometown. What's okay. Do it. Do it. Okay. Well if you guys don't know about Pam Hupp, you guys can see that. It's fucking. Yeah.

Crazy. Crazy. This woman worked in insurance basically had a lot of shady shit going on, whatever she worked. She was trying to find friends with this woman. Kind of lost touch with her until this woman gets diagnosed with cancer. All of a sudden Pam wants to be best friends with her again. Pam drives her back and forth from chemo.

Is really, really clingy with her. Gets made the beneficiary of her life insurance instead of her husband. They mail the certified letter before it even gets delivered. Her friend gets murdered. So Pam basically pins it on her husband. This is all alleged she hasn't been convicted yet yet. Anyways, she picked a night that her husband was always gone. Stabbed her a whole bunch of times.

Husband goes to jail. Spends a couple of years in jail. Stabs are 55 times. 55 times. Lots and lots of times. Anyways, husband had an alibi the whole time. No evidence against him. He gets out of jail.

In the meantime, she gets all this life insurance money. Does not give it to the daughters, which is what she was allegedly supposed to do with it. They asked her, why haven't you given this money to the daughters? Well, because my mom just died of Alzheimer's and I'm very busy with that. Mom didn't die of Alzheimer's. Mom took a whole bunch of Ambien, took it on her own and got tripped off of her balcony. But the rails on her balcony are broken and the people who investigated it said that a

normal sized woman could never have broken through those. So she gets found on the ground outside there. Mind you, the day before, whenever Pam brought her mom back to the rest home where she lives, she goes, my mom's really, really tired. She's not going to be down for dinner or breakfast. Don't worry about her. Don't check on her. Don't check on her.

She's fine. She's fine. That's what everyone says about their elderly parents. She's very tired. Please, please don't check on her. Just don't. I'm paying for her to stay here. Don't check on her.

I'm paying for you. She's fine. So anyways, gets ruled just accidental. Not anything suspicious going on with that. Time goes by. The husband gets out of jail. Then all of a sudden they get a 911 call that Pam has been the victim of a home invasion. He got into her car, held a knife to her throat.

She ran inside. They chased her inside. She unloaded a clip, killed him with a handgun. All this stuff keeps happening to this woman. So anyways, it turns out to be a disabled man that lives in a local area. They believe that she told him that she worked for a television program, like Dateline, and wanted to pay him $1,000 to be in a reenactment. He has $900 of cash in his pocket when they find his body, sequential bills.

She also has a $100 bill on her that is in sequence with those bills, but that happens all the time. That's just no big deal. And then also, they were like, wait a second. I think we got a 911 call recently where a woman said that a creepy ass lady picked her up in an SUV saying that she wanted to pay her $1,000 to be in a reenactment for Dateline. She stayed sexy and didn't get murdered.

Not out of the car, but they reviewed traffic footage and it was PM Hub's SUV that pulled the woman in. So they keep postponing her trial. She hasn't been on trial yet, but she's 100% guilty. She said it. 100% guilty. Yes, totally guilty. I think you fucking earned this.

Brooke, you nailed that shit. Yay. Brooke, everyone. Thank you so much. That was awesome. So good. Oh my God. Amazing.

You guys don't jump her and take that box. You guys, this has been truly such a perfect show. You have been an amazing, amazing audience. Thank you. Thank you so much. So much fun. We're so lucky that we're going to do this as a job. We can't freaking believe it.

It's all because of you guys. It's such a, it's a very, it's a very strange sensation to start this podcast in Georgia's apartment with her and I talking casually and usually very inaccurately about true crime and to have it explode in this way and to have you guys just come and be this community that you are turning yourselves into. It is an amazing thing to be a part of. Thank you so much for doing this with us. We can't.

I know. It's amazing. Yes. Thank you. So stay sexy. Bye. Bye. Bye you guys.

Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.