My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 274 - Arrested Behavior

Episode Date: May 13, 2021

On this week’s episode, Karen and Georgia cover the murder of Laci Peterson.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hey, you guys, George and I are so thrilled to announce exactly right next new podcast, Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words, and it premieres Monday, May 17th.

So Wicked Words is a companion chat show to Tenfold More Wicked that blends narrative, nonfiction true crime storytelling with in-depth interviewing. It's so good, you guys. Each week on Wicked Words, host Kate Winkler-Dawson interviews journalists and writers about their best true crime cases. Guests include the filmmaker who investigated the Long Island serial killer, the forensic psychologist who spent years exploring the mind of BTK killer Dennis Rader, and a New York Times best-selling author who went to school with a serial killer.

Wicked Words premieres Monday, May 17th, but you can hear the trailer today at the end of this episode. So then check out the premiere May 17th on Exactly Right. And there's new episodes every Monday. Subscribe to Wicked Words and the Tenfold More Wicked feed on Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And follow them on Instagram at Tenfold More Wicked, or on Twitter at Tenfold More, and on Facebook at Tenfold More Wicked.

Enjoy, you guys. We're so excited to bring this to you. Goodbye. Goodbye. One, two, three. That felt real nice. That was nice. That felt good.

Good start. Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Harter. Thank you. That's Karen Gilgareff. Thank you. And here we are. What?

Here we are. Let's sing the whole thing, let's sing the whole time. You don't really want that from me. I have a terrible voice, but if we do it like the music man, where you just kind of talk and do it like this, then it's more rhythmic than anything else. You're pumping your arms. You don't have to worry about. I was doing the march.

Oh, got it. I know what marching is. What's going on? We, I don't know, we're still here. We're doing it. We're getting through. Everyone knows what's happening. This is a podcast.

How about you? Goodbye. Well, it is, I think what you might be referring to is the fact that California is slowly reopening. And people are slowly still wearing masks, but going outside, going to things and public things are happening and lots of comedy shows are starting to booked and concerts. Yes. Yeah. I don't know if I'm ready for that.

I don't know if I'm ready to laugh, that's what I mean. It's an adjustment for sure. I'm visiting my family at the moment and it was only when I was around a large group of people at a large dinner at my dad's house that I was like, holy shit, a year and a half alone. That's intense. Is it hard to be around people for like a lot of people for you now? Like, not that I have either, but.

No, I love it. I've wanted it the whole time and just did my really, for the first time in my life, my compartmentalizing really served me well. And yeah, and it was only basically when I was like at dinner at my dad's where I was looking, looking at all the people that I spend almost every holiday with, every major anything, the, the solid group, and I was just like, oh, like they're the most beautiful people I've ever seen in my life. And it was just a really lovely thing, but like, man, that's a huge side effect and a,

and a huge, you know, everybody had a thing to deal with, but I think the people that lived alone, I think we all just kind of had to cope and make shit up. Yeah. And now that it's slowly perhaps sliding into an ending. It just is nice. I feel like you got, you had a lot of pressure of people living alone at a lot of pressure to like be, to have a metamorphosis and to like, it's you time. And so there was no like, oh, that's that's ox, that's got to be hard.

Like in the beginning, you definitely had that. Had what? The pressure to metamorphosis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm not bragging. It's been hard to like be with one other person the entire time.

Sure. And I'm sure for a lot of people. The whole fucking thing was not ideal for any, you could live with 18 people. You could, I mean, you could, you could love. There was of course, I and many people were just like, this is what I like. And it's like, yeah, you like it for three months. Totally. Then it's over.

Then you stop liking it for several months. Then you, then you have no choice. Then you go into the dark night of the soul. There's just so many things, but it's, you know, it was just so long. And I hope it, I hope it stays like this for a little while. What about the people and myself included who got a puppy or a baby, a baby, I feel like it was like a panic of like, I need a daily change, please now. You know?

Yep. Yep. I actually spent some time with a baby. I know a baby, a one year old baby who was born in right after quarantine started. And her mom, Jen, it's her first baby. And she was at Mother's Day on Sunday at Adrienne's. And she, Jen was like, she's a little, because this baby is so cute. She's walking and we're all like, she's so big and no one's seen her.

And Jen's like, yeah, she's, cause she would walk up to you and then walk away or she'd walk up and kind of not be into it. And Jen's like, yeah, she's, she's a COVID baby. She's not used to being around anybody else. Wow. But her parents and her grandparents basically. Wow. I never even thought of that.

Oh, you know what? I did read a cool thing that was like, I can't remember where I saw it, but it was like I had babies who were born, it's probably read it, babies who were born in quarantine and small children are going to be really good at reading eyes and like expressions through eyes because the face, everyone's face was covered up. Yeah. Crazy. Yes.

It's going to breed a whole different kind of human. Psychic babies. Like coming to you, that baby knows my thoughts. Um, I don't have a much this week. What do you have? In the, in the realm of wrecks or don't, don't do this, do this, you know, how we tell everyone what to do. Well, I, I have very little because we, we had basically roughly two blessed weeks off,

which were so, oh my God. So nice. Um, like last, this past week, last week was an actual vacation week for me and it was so needed and wanted and, and revered and that wasn't the word I was looking for relished. It was relished. Um, but I, the funny thing is I didn't watch that much TV. My sister, you know, my sister and I, this was kind of funny. My sister and I just started rewatching Arrested Development because it's just such a winner.

Like it just gets the job done. It's still, it holds up. I mean, there's definitely problematic stuff in a 2021 sense, but the jokes are amazing. It's just so funny. Jason Bateman is, I'm, it makes me happy that he's doing other stuff and drama, whatever, but he's one of the funniest people ever. I just have so good. Then his fans and Silver Spoons, I'm sure we've talked about him before, but the straight

man character is, and for everyone else to be funny off of you is like, I feel like such an unsung, because everyone wants to be like the funny one and then the quirky one. And then over the top one, when you have to play the normal person, it's like you're, you're giving everyone else something like a huge, well, you would, I mean, as a comic, I'm sure you've witnessed that. Right. So then when you watch people who are the straight man, who are also hilarious, like he's Jason Bateman is doing a masterclass of how you do that and like how underplaying

is hilarious. And now really you can say it all with one look of the eye, with one fur over the brow. Yeah. But the funniest thing, the reason I bring this up is because we got, we got to see my Aunt Mary, my Aunt Mary, who's the nun and she goes, Karen, you know what show I was watching is arrested behavior. And it is so funny. I swear to God.

And she said it. I corrected her and she said it that way like six times. Don't correct her ever. I was like, I was like, I was development. Every time I was like, you mean, I was development, but she, because it's on Netflix now or like she's just discovered, discovered it on Netflix. I just love it. I love the members of my family who are of, of older generations and they still are completely

interested and engaged in what like, what's going on with the people, like what's going on with the kids. The amount of times I'll tell my parents to watch something and they fucking don't do it. Like even my dad is into RVing and like traveling in an RV. He won't watch Nomadland. I'm like, dad, it was made for you. Well, watch it.

I like, do you think is it because he's a rebel of the sixties who's like, I decide when I watch a movie and which one it's going to be? I think they're all a little overwhelmed by having to go to different platforms to watch things. Like they want. It is a pain. It is. Even for us.

And I think they are just like, even if they have Netflix, it's just like not on their radar. They refuse. It's a pain. And also I, I bet you I've paid for like Paramount plus three times because every time I go, I'm like, I don't know what password I use. Oh, it's all. Start over.

It's just shit. I don't fucking. I'm watching on Netflix for you younger kids who are okay with the apps. It's my new. We've talked about this and you laughed at me. It's my new lunchtime show, you know what I mean? Where I need a quick bite and I don't want to just sit there and I don't want to scroll. So it's called Ginny and Georgia and I'm sure you've seen the photo.

Is your niece watching it? It's a little risque for her. It's, it's, it's with the sister from Annie, Annie, what's her name from Schitt's Creek? That makes so much sense. Okay. I mean, beyond gorgeous, I can't stop watching her on TV. She's like, so beautiful. I can't even handle it.

And then the other actress who plays her daughter, who I'm like shocked, hasn't been on a lot of shit and a child actress since she was little because she's so talented. Her name's Antonia Gentry. She plays, I think she's like in her early twenties, but she plays a 16 year old. I had no clothes like this must be a Disney girl. It's not. She's incredible. And there's, there's so, it's like desperate housewives meets Gilmore girls.

Oh shit. It's super risque, but it's very much like this is how teenagers are these days. And then the mom's flashbacks into like her life and how she became a little fucked up is like, I don't know, it's, it's a really great show. Wait, no, am I right? It's Annie Murphy. Is she the one that plays the mom? No.

Brianne, Brianne Howie, Brianne Howie has been in a lot of stuff, but like you is just like so beautiful. You can't stand it. Let's see. She's known for the passage, the exorcist, that woman doll face she's been on plus one. That's a great movie. Yeah. So just some stuff.

Okay. But so talented. I mean, not just gorgeous. She's also talented. Yes. All important. So it's my lunchtime show. Like my lunchtime Vince doesn't need to be here.

I get a little embarrassed when he's home and I'm watching it. There's teenagers tap dancing sometimes. It's like a little glee too. Oh, okay. So yeah, it's a little glee too. Yeah, it's good. I wonder if that's a, I'll have my sister do a pass by and see if it's appropriate for it could be a preteen and it's like mother, teen daughter interactions and how fucked

up they get when you get a little older and your mom lies to you about her entire life. Shit. Okay. That's good. I think your sister, your niece is mature enough to watch it. I bet she is. Yeah. She is also, what I think is fascinating is she's in the mode of, she, everything is

on YouTube or like FaceTime. Like she doesn't really consume television the way we did at that age at all. It's a whole different thing. That was our babysitter. There was no scrolling. There was no snippets of shit. So like you watched an hour long episode of Golden Girls and you haven't already seen it 15 times.

Yes. I've bragged to you about this already, but that's, I invented Tevo in 19, I would say 1980 when we were, my dad was like, you have to go to the hardware store with me. And I'm like, but this is the one of the better Gilligan's islands. And I remember going up to push the button to turn the TV off and going, I wish I could turn this off. And when I came back on it was just frozen right in the spot and I could keep watching it.

Bill Gates, turns out you lived in the Northern California. I was listening in to your brain through the wall and Bill Gates and Ventivo. Probably not. I think it was, uh, no, I think it was Elon Musk. Yes. Okay. Uh, here's an anecdote. I do have something to tell you that has nothing to do with watching anything or listening

to anything, but we went to a softball game of Nora's and when it was over, it was like nine o'clock at night. I went around to get in the car and I look up and there's just this row of tiny lights going through the sky and they're as small as stars. They're all in a row. They're following each other exactly in the same space away from each other and almost like a train of stars rolling through the sky. And I'm just standing there.

I go, Laura, look, look at this. And then she comes or she goes, what is that? I'm like, I don't know. I start taking video of it. I have the video. You have to pose. A guy walks over, a guy walks over and goes, excuse me, because he's trying to get into his car and I'm just standing next to his car.

And I go, did you see this? And then he goes, what's this? And then he watches for a while. He takes some video of it. I'm like flipping out. I'm like, that was the edge of an invisible spaceship. Like I had all these ideas in my head. Or was that the actual spaceship?

Maybe they're the lights. Yeah. We can't even comprehend what it is. My sister gets on the website. I love Petaluma. It's a SpaceX satellite thing. They need banners that are like, this is not a UFO, although that's what aliens would do too.

This is not a UFO. Hey, look over there. Don't look up here. Talk to your niece. It just says nothing. It's nothing. It was crazy. It was like, it was really, I was like, well, I'm staying really calm while I witnessed

this unidentified blub of blood. I was like, but I got it on video. It was really funny. Yeah. I think we should put a video up for sure. Oh, yeah. No. No.

You know what? As I say that, I'm like, no. I mean, you can, it's trees on the bottom and then a black sky and then everyone's smile. I go, oh my God. Or something like that. I can visualize that. For like three minutes. So there's the video.

There's the video. That's as good as it gets. And I think maybe you hear the guy walk up and be like, excuse me. Oh my God. Yeah. You tell him to fuck off. That's the real conspiracy is you don't want to post. Don't you understand?

Start screaming in some stranger's face. Do it. Do it. Yeah. Oh, well, you know what? If we're talking, they don't need a plug, but Jason Bateman, Will Arnett and Sean, he's have a podcast called smart list that I listened to on my drive up. That's just, I mean, it's just delightful.

They're all so funny and they get unbelievable guests. I mean, they get like the coolest people on that show. It's kind of unfair. It's well, I think they earned it. I think it's fair. You're right. Yeah. I think they all have at least an Emmy between them or two.

And that's, you know what? In booking, in the booking world, it's all about those words. But the conversation is they're, they're great. They're really fun to listen to. I think that's like one of the things I love so much about podcasting is like when people like that do it, then it really is like, oh, this is your hang. You get to, you're enjoying this and we get to like be a little moth on the wall and laugh along.

Yeah. We're the real guests and we're honored to be invited. What's happening? I don't know. Oh, I just thought of a book as well. Okay. So I got this book delivered to the house, opened the box and goes here, you can read it first.

Where I was like, that was beautiful. That was beautiful. Yeah. No one knows you like your sister and your weird reading habits and stuff. Yeah. And she would, and she is basically like, I know this, this is going to be good so you can start it first, but it's Oprah's new book. Okay.

So Oprah has this new book she wrote with a research neurologist. He does a bunch of stuff. And his name is Bruce D. Perry and it's called What Happened to You? Conversations on Trauma, Resilience and Healing. And this is the guy, Bruce Perry was the guy who started the trauma conversation back when no one knew what that was. And it's basically his studies talking about when stuff happens to kids, everyone loves to talk about kids being so resilient and blah, blah, blah, but actually if you're traumatized

in specific ways and in certain ways, it actually affects your brain chemistry. It affects your brain makeup. And it's just a fast, and it's written like a conversation you'd love, you would love it. I know you'd love it. Immediately buying this. Yes. And oh, I bet she does the audio, obviously, the two of them.

I'm sure she does. Yeah. Because it is like a conversation. Yeah. It's good. We're all going to do it. That reminds me. Let's have, we'll call this Oprah's Book Club Book Club, where we just talk to each other

about book's Oprah recommends to her book club. I love it. Oprah's. We're like the weirdos outside the window. We get sued immediately for calling it that. Yes. We don't care. We take that publicity, we spin it into a brand new book club.

And then we get canceled. Here's where, here's what I had space I'm in right now. I started listening to the audio book of Tara Brock's radical acceptance. Yeah. Amazing. So good. Oh my God. That's me.

Oh my God. That's me. And then I was like, I need a break from this right now. And so I started the book that you recommended, Say Nothing by Patrick Rad and Keith troubles in Ireland. The fucking civil war that's been raging or had raged for a century. I was like, I don't have enough acceptance right now in my life to deal with this. I need a minute.

I got a chapter in let's get on to the troubles. Yeah. Again, you know what? The troubles will set your perspective. They will give you a little sense of what else is going on in the world. I mean, and I had no idea and I'm fascinated by war and wars and conflicts and the reasons like before and after them and like talk about trauma though, the like a normalcy of growing up in that in a place where you didn't know who the enemy was all around you.

You never knew when someone was going to get blown the fuck up. Yep. And you know, Flanagan who owns Largo grew up in Belfast and he's told me in Belfast in the, you know, 70s, 80s. And he said, he's told stories of walking down the sidewalk and then the car bomb went off behind him. So he was just, he was like two blocks away. So he, he heard it, he felt it, but he was not impacted.

But like saw people get blown up as in childhood. Like that was the standard photos from that from the whole era of the 70s and 80s. And then into the 90s, it's like the photos of the children walking by armed men is like and women because like the women were in it too. It's just, it's just mind boggling and I just don't ever think I really understood what was going on because you know, I'm a kid, but right shit, dude. I know. Well, and also I think for stuff like that, there's this, yeah, it's the kind of thing

you don't, strangely enough, it's not, it doesn't have the same. It's almost like the opposite of quote unquote true crime. Yeah. Because true, to me, before, of course, this podcast, true crime was just like the 12 weird serial killers we've all heard of our whole life. And that was just kind of like you, that was the entry level, you know, version of it. But that was because there was part of it that was like, this is this rare monster that lives, you know, yeah, yeah, there's a dragon in that cave.

And that's the only one. Don't go in that cave. Yes, yeah, you know, that is basically what's wrong with humanity that we're still doing this to each other. Yes. So, so many years later in this kind of organized governmental, global way that's, I'm like bumming and boring myself out. Well, I suggest radical acceptance, but terrible rock, it really is great, it really is an

incredible book, I will say, but, you know, it's hard to work on yourself. A lot of shit gets brought up and then you need time to like process it. So I'm doing the thing I always do, which is listening to true, what you're, I agree with you with this true crime, because it's safe, it's escapism and it's like safe because I'm watching it through, I'm watching it as a rerun. You know what I mean? Yeah. So.

Well, don't you love Tara Brock's voice to her speaking? Does she do the audio book? I just find her and her podcast, if I know I've plugged it before, but if you want to listen to it, you just look up Tara Brock and she has an amazing podcast that pretty much anyone you listen to is just a nice way to like spend the morning. That's kind of what got me through the pandemic. Yeah. Her, some old Ram Dass podcasts and then doing some browsing here and there, but yeah,

it's good. It's, you know what I mean? It's actually useful. It's not woo-woo like you think it's going to be. No. At all. She's so far. It's very useful.

Yeah. Yeah. It's brain food. Does she, does she talk in radical acceptance about rain, the rain system of dealing with hard moments? No. I haven't gotten that far yet. But I will.

It's good. Okay. Oh. She knows her shit. She does know her shit. I've had sons of Sam on Netflix. Oh. Good stuff.

Never wanted it. So far, I'm, I think I'm about 15 minutes in. Great so far. I mean, I had to pause it because I have things to do here. I was looking sons of Anarchy and I was really surprised and then I was like, well, we're almost down with the Sopranos. So maybe we're down with the Sopranos that we'll get into that. No.

No, no, no. This is the son of Sam. They're true crime, true crime documentary on Netflix. And friend of the family, Paul Giamatti does some of the voiceover in it, which I didn't recognize right away. And it's just, it's, it starts out with all this footage of New York City in the 70s, which is unbelievable. It's so heavy.

So like just that thing where it'd be like a building and then just an empty lot of rubble and just someone walking their baby out in the front, you know, and kids playing on, I don't know why kids playing on rubble with mattresses, old mattresses on top, jumping into the rubble. Like it's a ball pit. Hell yeah. That's totally what I think of the like mid the 70s and the yeah, yeah. It's fascinating.

Yeah. It's kind of like what they tried to, what they made the Joker look like it's that, yeah, that look. Yeah. It's like Sinister is meanwhile uptown, the fucking Richie Riches of the stock market are snorting coke and they're rich shit. And like the disparity, you know what I mean? Like the blackout documentary or in the New York and the, is it the 80s, 70s and what's

like the disparity of like what people went through in the high rights buildings. And then, you know, whatever town, whatever part of towns that weren't like that. I don't know even more than a million times to New York. I don't know what's uptown. I don't know what's down. Uptown town's fancy downtown sounds. I don't know where that is. I think you're right.

In general, uptown is fancy and downtown is fancy is it solely because of the song uptown girl. That's what we base our life on Billy Joel and his lyrics and why wouldn't you? He's the terror Brock music. He knows this. Ladies and gentlemen, but they do talk about that blackout in this thing. Oh, I shouldn't be talking about it because I haven't finished it, but I like it. So let me tell you what happens.

Spoiler. No. Um, great. Oh, and our friend Kyle Russell has been doing more lip syncs. My sister loves them so much that she made me come in and lay down next to her and watch them for a while where it's like, I really, it's harder for me to enjoy it because I'm the one. No, it's not.

And then, but it's, he's so funny and delightful. And in the most recent one, he does, um, fucking what's his name Bradley Cooper it from the lady got from Star is born, rolling up and going, Hey, and then he's, yeah, is that the character? Yeah. Oh, really? Um, and, uh, it's really funny. He basically is like, no, he's doing offshoots.

He's doing, he's lip syncing things that don't exist. It's really delightful. Did you see the one where you're in front of the shining hallway and I'm in front of a ball pit? But yes, that's the first one Laura made me watch. Stephen, what's his, um, handle? It's a Kiki with Kiki. Okay.

So check, check those that I've been posting some of them are, are my favorite murder Instagram feed. I mean, it's a light. May I point out about the stay sexy and don't get murdered sweepstakes announcement to, uh, it's like a party for our paperback that's getting released that has a brand new chapter from each of us from our upcoming book. Um, so forge books is our publisher and they're giving away brand new gift packs of like SSD GM swag to two lucky winners.

So this, um, gift pack, it includes SSD GM, Bluetooth headphones, um, a fucking hurray book light, other cool SSD GM, uh, the book and my favorite murder swag. And of course a paperback copy of stay sexy, don't get murdered with the new bonus content in it, which is available now wherever books are sold to the paperback is out. That's kind of the point of all of those. Oh, right. Yes. We have to say that this contest is open to residents of the U S and Canada only because

it's legal things. And also we have to say that you need to enter by May 26th for a chance to win and see all official rules at bit.ly forward slash SSD GM box. That's the, uh, that's the website. Yeah. So whatever that's all lowercase letters and, uh, one word bit.ly slash SSD GM box or you can go to at forge reads and at my favorite murder on social media for all those entry details.

Okay. And we'll announce the winners on the podcast, uh, in June, but we've said guys, a contest. That's fun. Tomorrow's your birthday. So Tuesday, so two days ago, once this goes up, happy birthday. Thank you. Kindly. Yeah.

Good job. Uh, great year. Hope. I forgot how to celebrate birthdays for real. My fiftieth birthday I spent on zoom with Lauren Adrian playing some weird game. Uh, I can't remember what we played. I think we all separately played, uh, at home and then we're like, was it Yahtzee? I can't remember, but it was very put together and sad.

And I remember my sister being like, I will, it was sad, it genuinely was for such a kind of like, uh, you know, that's a big, that's a quote unquote big birthday. Yeah. And my sister was like, I will drive down there and I was like, Laura, we're a hotspot. Like you're not going to come into the COVID zone just because I've been around here for half a century. We'll, we'll do it again next year. So I'm glad to say that, that it's basically been a year and things have changed because

for a little while there, it, it didn't seem like it really didn't, but yeah, everyone wanted to celebrate your birthday. So we all have our shit together. Such a passion for my birthday across this nation, this great nation. Thanks everybody for bringing it together and everybody wearing your masks and everybody being so cool. Yeah. And getting vaccinated.

Getting vaccinated. That's the key. That's the key. It really is. The way to go. What other news do we have? Oh, should we talk about some exactly right news? Yeah.

I love when we do that. Just a couple of highlights, um, we'll do it quick. This week on the murder squad, um, Chris Lambert, the host of the podcast that George has been talking about quite a bit, your own backyard that covered the, um, Chris and smart case. He is on Monday's episode of murder squad. That's right. And on lady to lady this week, none other than Millie and Danielle from I saw what you

did another great exactly right podcast there on the episode. I mean, what a bunch of fun people to listen to. So please check that out. That's going to, there's going to be a lot of loud laughing on that one. You're going to, if you're feeling low, that's going to be the podcast you're going to want to listen to. Definitely. And lady to lady has brand new merch.

If you're looking for that. Very cute. Very cool. Yeah. Do you want to do your little, a little merch plug? Oh, sure. Let's do a little merch plug. Uh, right now the featured merch on my favorite murder.com.

The store is pint glasses. Hey. Everyone wants a pint glass. Put it in your freezer before you pour your beer inside it. So that's what everyone up here does. Nice. Yeah. That was great.

We did great. You know what? I think we're not rusty at all. And I think we're completely in the pocket with this podcasting thing. Oh, cue ball. There you go. Who goes first this week, Steve Hen. Georgia goes first.

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slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Aresha. And I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva, Whitney Houston.

Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva, we'll tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So today I'm going to do the Lacey Peterson.

Wow. The story. Okay. Let's see. Sources for this research include multiple appeal documents, a study conducted by Dr. Isabel Horan and Diane Chang, an Associated Press article by Kim Curtis, a news channel eight staff article, The New York Post. I listened to an episode of the podcast, True Crime Obsessed, which was very funny and very

cool and they did a lot of, I'm not going to do a lot of speculation in this. I'm just going to give the facts, but it's also me. So of course I'm going to speculate a bit, but it's hard not to speculate when we talk about this stuff, but everybody is well aware that on this podcast, no one's claiming to know anything. So we're friends talking to each other about something that we're interested in. That's totally right. So is True Crime Obsessed, but they also have like news clips and stuff from like documentaries

and they just Nancy Grace is a fun topic that they talk about, which I'm not going to get into. So check that out and then also a study led by Dr. May Wallace and a Desert News article by Pat Reeve, an Alta Online article by Beth Sportswood, and which I use a lot for information from the Evelyn Hernandez case, which I'll get into later in the show. So here we go on May 4th, 1975 in Modesto, California, Lacey Denise Peterson is born to Sharon and Dennis. They divorce a year later, Sharon starts dating a man named Ron and they stay together forever

and Ron becomes a big part of Lacey's life as her stepdad. Lacey is described as kind and good hearted. She's a cheerleader in junior high and high school. And after graduating from Thomas Downey High School, she attends the California Polytechnic State University, which is a really good school, right? Cal Poly? Uh-huh. Yeah.

In San Luis Obispo? Uh-huh. Which is actually where the Kristen Smart case happens too. Correct. Yep. So there she matures in ornamental horticulture. She loves plants. I know.

So interesting. I have to learn that. What is that? The first thing I think is Christmas trees. I don't think... What is that? That's a thing. Just horticulture.

So like she loves growing plants. She loves learning about them. It's what my mom did and you have to learn like the Latin name for every single plant. It's very complicated. No. I swear. So while a student at Cal Poly, Lacey would visit a friend who worked at a restaurant in Morro Bay where you used to go to and barf your brains out, right?

No. What are you talking about? Are you talking to me? Yeah. Sorry. Don't cut that out. Don't cut that out. Steve.

I'm sorry. I was so confused because Steven was telling me how he's going to go. Oh, Monterey. The Monterey Bay Aquarium, so I was just like, are you confusing me with Steven? But you weren't even here for that conversation. I was. Because I was late. But where do you think I barf my brains out?

Well, you can't eat seafood because you guys would drive down that long, curvy road to get to the seafood place. That's Bodega Bay. Got it. Yeah. Leave that in anyways. Yeah, just a tidbit from Karen's childhood. And there she met her friend's co-worker, Scott Peterson, and they met in mid-1994.

Immediately after meeting him, she tells her mom that she had met the man she's going to marry. Lacey made the first move. She sent Scott over her phone number like through a friend. And Scott called her. They began dating. Their first date is deep sea fishing and Lacey gets seasick because that's not a great first date.

It isn't. Dude. It's, yeah. Unless you are deep sea fisherman and that's, you're used to doing it constantly and that's going to be difficult. It's akin to like hiking on a first date. Don't do that. So when Lacey's mom Sharon arrives for a visit the next week, Scott is like super charming,

which is fine. You know, when you meet someone's mom, but he brings a dozen white roses for her, calls her ma'am, you know, all that stuff. As Lacey's relationship with him is gets more serious, he decides to stop following his dream of being a professional golfer in order to focus on the business. So they date for two years and in 2000, they moved to Modesto and they buy a house there and Lacey starts working as a substitute teacher while Scott runs a startup fertilizer company.

But he also begins the first of his multiple affairs and the first long they've been married. Not long. Not long at all. The first woman that is known about discovered that Scott was married when she walked in on Scott and Lacey in bed together. What? I know. So like not even the normal, I walked in on the affair happening, which has just got

to be a shock to everyone involved. She walked in on someone's life, actually their regular life happening. His secret real life happening, Jesus. So Scott then later tells a second woman that he was trapped in a miserable marriage and that he was getting divorced. And then she learns the truth because he graduates from college and Lacey is there as is the other woman and she sees Lacey give Scott like a passionate kiss when he graduates. So soon after graduation, Scott tells his wife, he wants to try his hand at opening

a restaurant and so they decide to open like a chill hamburger place near the camp, the campus, Modesto campus. So in mid 2002, after three years of trying, Lacey finds out she's pregnant. Her due date is February 2003. She's super happy. She's always wanted to be a mom. In fact, she's so excited that even during her first trimester before she's even showing she starts wearing maternity clothes.

So she enrolls in prenatal yoga classes. She brings Scott to all her Lamaze classes. And they even choose a name for the baby boy, Connor. Lacey's family thinks Scott seems happy about the pregnancy heat and he even goes to a lot of her doctor's appointments. But then one of Lacey's relatives asks Scott if he's ready to have a child and he says, quote, I was kind of hoping for infertility. Oh, I know, which is just such a, I know people say different things and joke differently,

but like, to say that to someone who knows Lacey, not like your bro, it's just like such a weird thing. Like you do not compute how awful that sounds. You know what I mean? Right. Yes. So the relative isn't sure if Scott's joking because he isn't laughing or smiling when he says that.

And despite that comment, Lacey's family thinks the couple has a very positive relationship. Lacey's stepdad, Ron says he never sees them fight, which of course you kind of wouldn't. He says that Scott's always calm with Lacey, even when, quote, she might give him a reason to be upset. Lacey, I know Lacey doesn't complain to her friends about the marriage and her friends see Scott help around the house and do nice things for her. So everything, everyone thinks everything is fine, which of course doesn't mean anything ever.

On December 23rd, 2002, Lacey, who's 27 years old and around 32 weeks pregnant at this point, that night she calls and talks to her mom on the phone. Her mom says, confirms with Lacey that the two of them will be coming over at 6 p.m. the next night for Christmas Eve dinner. The next morning, it's damp, it's gray, it's cold, there's some wind going on in that area, which is normal. And that morning, according to Scott, they watch Martha Stewart and then Scott leaves to go golfing.

At 10.18 a.m., the Peterson's next-door neighbor, Karen, sees that their beloved dog, Mackenzie, is wandering around with his leash still on. Karen notices that Scott's truck is gone, but Lacey's car is still in the driveway. However, she can't get a hold of anyone in the house, there's no signs of activity in there, so Karen just puts Mackenzie in the Peterson's backyard and closes the gate. She tries to call Lacey, can't get a hold of her at all. At around 3.45 p.m., Lacey's sister, Amy, realizes by getting a call that the gift basket that Scott said he'd pick up that day hasn't been picked up.

So Amy calls Scott to see why he hadn't get the basket. He doesn't pick up or return the call. At around 5.15 p.m., Scott calls Lacey's mom, Sharon, and asks if Lacey's been at her place or is there. By 5.30, neighbors have noticed that Scott has backed his truck into the driveway, and Scott tells Lacey's mom that Lacey's car is in the driveway and their dog is in the backyard with a leash on, but that Lacey is missing, quote, missing. Sharon tells Scott to call Lacey's friends and neighbors, Scott calls Sharon back, says

no one's seen or heard from Lacey, and then Sharon tells her husband Ron to call the police. So at around 6.00 p.m., police meet Scott and Sharon and Ron at a nearby park thinking that maybe that's where Lacey had gone to walk Mackenzie, and Scott tells police that he and Lacey had watched television that morning, then they discussed their plans for the day, which was that Lacey had planned to walk Mackenzie and then go grocery shopping, and Scott had planned to go golfing, but said that it was too cold and the weather is too bad for golfing, so instead he went fishing, which is just not the, you just don't do either of those things on a cold windy day, right?

Yeah, yeah, if it's too cold to golf, then heading to the harbor where the cold, that doesn't make sense at all. None. No. Scott tells police that he left the house, he went to get his boat from his, the warehouse, where he kept it. He said he drove to the Berkeley marina and started fishing, and that after a few hours, he stopped fishing because it was too cold and rainy.

On his way home, he tries to call Lacey, he says on her home phone and cell phone, but didn't get an answer. Lacey left her a message, two messages. He says he got home around 4.30, washed his clothes, ate pizza, and then called Sharon to see if she knew where Lacey was. An officer asked Scott what time he went fishing and what he was fishing for, and Scott like doesn't really have a response to give the officer. He pauses, he gives him a blank look and he mumbles, quote, mumbles some stuff without giving

a real answer. And when the officer asks what kind of lure Scott used, he gives the police what's described as a blank look and after a pause is able to tell them the size and color of the lure. Which doesn't seem that weird that you're like, also the color of the, saying the color of the lure, I guess maybe for a certain fish, you have certain, I don't, I don't fish. Yeah. I was just thinking of that too, where it's like the second you went on and then I was like, well, maybe he golfed with people and everybody else was too cold, but he was fine.

And so then everyone bailed on golfing, he didn't want to do it himself. Like it's easy to sit there and be like, that's weird, that's weird because we're all have, we all have the benefit of hindsight. Yeah. And I mean, everything seems weird when you think, when the guy did it, essentially. And I think, I'm surprised to find out how many people don't think he's guilty because maybe it's because I know he got convicted that I'm like, he's guilty and it's been so many years and nothing new has come out, but you know, it's all speculation, I guess.

So when Ron, the stepdad mentions to Scott that it wasn't the best weather for fishing, Scott just walks off without responding. Lacey's cousin later says, I saw more reaction out of Scott when he burned the God darn chicken. And again, we always talk about, you just never know how someone's going to react in a, but I think to this point, it's like, because he did it, you know, I'm just, it's speculation. Right. But it doesn't mean, yeah, it doesn't, I want to say it means something, but it doesn't mean something, but it's just suspicious.

There is a suspicious way to act and I'm, you know, it's, yeah. Well, and it's always in the context of a person that has potentially lost the person that they're supposed to love the most in the world, which I think we would like to think there would just be a kind of a standard of behavior, reaction, information, people being able to remember details. But yeah, but, but we've also heard plenty of these stories to now know there is no standard and it doesn't mean anything. Yeah.

Like you have to get the, what, what means something is the actual evidence. Yeah. Context clues can help, but you know. All right. So Scott also tells a cousin of Sharon's and two neighbors that he had been golfing all day, which is not what he told the police. So these are the context clues that we're looking for, are you, is your story not straight? Scott randomly tells a friend of Sharon's that he quote would not be surprised if the

police found blood in his truck because he get cut his, he cut his hands all the time. So just like offer that information up at around 6 30 PM police searched the Peterson home. Scott was reported to be completely calm during the search and there are no signs of forced entry and no signs of a robbery and even Lacey's purse is still in the house. This reminds me of the documentary about Chris Watts and they have footage of him in the house looking for the, and find the cell phone and find all these things. And Chris Watts is just completely blank.

He's a blank slate and it's so creepy. Right. Right. So in the house, police find wet towels on top of the washing machine. Scott says he took them out of the wash so he could put his clothes that he wore that day that he was fishing inside the washing machine and their police find the jeans shirt and green pullover, pullover jacket that Scott had been wearing while fishing in the spare bedroom closet.

Police find multiple duffel bags that quote appear to have been pulled off the shelf. One is lying upside down even just like randomly and police have Scott why the duffel bags are on the floor and he says because I'm a slob. Home detective also notices that the phone book had been left open on the kitchen counter and it's open to a full page ad for a defense lawyer. Oh no. Yeah. Not good.

So police look through Scott's truck bed and they find large patio umbrellas and a tarp and when they ask Scott about it, he says that the umbrellas were going to be taken to store them at the warehouse, but he forgot to unload them apparently. On the cab of the truck, police find the camo jacket that Scott was wearing while fishing and the jacket is dry even though it was raining. They also find a fishing rod, a two day fishing license and a bag inside the bag as a package of unused fishing lures and a receipt indicating all the fishing items had been purchased back on December 20th a couple days earlier and Scott also gives police a Berkeley Marina

parking receipt and it states that Scott entered the marina at 1254 that day. Meanwhile, around 70 or 80 neighbors and relatives meet at the park to help search for Lacey. They search until around 11 p.m. that night and then continue to search the next few days. After they search the Peterson home, the police ask Scott to go to the station for more questioning and Modesto police detectives John Bueller and Alan Braccini, they're the lead investigators on the case. They question Scott Peterson all that evening. Scott repeats a story about fishing but adds more detail this time.

He says that he's never fished in the San Francisco Bay before, but he wanted to take his boat for a test run and he says he drove an hour and a half from Modesto and made it to the Berkeley marina by 1 p.m. He says he fished for 90 minutes near an area called Brooks Island and then decided to call it a day because of the weather. But on his way back, he called Lacey on their home phone and didn't get an answer and then he says he called her cell phone and left two messages but then they tell Scott there's only one voicemail on Lacey's phone and he doesn't have an explanation.

During this interview, police also ask Scott if there's any problems in their marriage or if he's ever cheated and he says no. Bueller told ABC News in 2017, quote, I suspected Scott when I first met him. I was a little bit thrown off by his calm, cool demeanor and his lack of questioning. He wasn't like, will you call me back? Can I have one of your cards? What are you guys doing now? He wasn't insistent upon the fact that he had a missing pregnant wife and there needed

to be something done right now, you know what I mean? Which does seem like the reaction I think most people would have. Entirely. Yes. And it's always the thing of why are you talking to me when you should be out there looking for my wife. Totally. I mean, that's...

Yeah. But on the other counterpoint or the counterpoint is that he did agree to take a lie detector test. But then again, cocky people who could or couldn't be sociopaths think they're smarter than everyone and everything, right? Now wait, did you say you were or weren't going to be doing speculation? I said I wasn't with the caveat that I'm Georgia Hardstart and this is my favorite murder. So what the fuck?

I mean, yeah. You should have come into this knowing that it's impossible for me. It's impossible in general because this is what's fascinating about these cases. The idea, the very unlikely and outlying idea, but the true consideration that he could be innocent after all of this is really something to... It's that thing to now always consider where it's like, but if there is no standard way of acting, but if there is... But if sometimes people are just what would you be, kind of like a cold narcissist, it

doesn't automatically mean that you're guilty. And so all those things have to be kind of like pulled together. I mean, even the fact that what used to be evidence like blood spatter and all these things and hair evidence isn't totally correct anymore, even DNA that proves everything doesn't always prove anything and DNA that proves everything sometimes doesn't get a conviction. It's just... It's so... There's a human element and we want there not to be.

We want it to be by the book just black and white and if only it could be, but it's like that's what makes these cases and conversations fascinating and needed to be very amateurishly speculated on because it is like that jacket is dry, if you know that it's like a gray day in San Francisco, it's going to be wet simply from... Even if it's not raining because that's how you are on the bay, you are right there next to the ocean, all there is is moisture in the air. So there's no way that jacket would be not at least slightly damp. And why are you telling a bunch of people everyone different stories?

Like you're trying to find one that sounds right. That's believable. So you're trying a bunch out on a different bunch of different people to see which one sticks. Also, Modesto, I'd never really thought about this part before how far away Modesto is from the Berkeley Marina. Because the Berkeley Marina is basically it's right across from San Francisco. Modesto is it's central, you know, it's northern central valley.

So like, there are tons of other places he could have gone fishing besides the Berkeley Marina. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know that topography, geography, very well. Oh, I know it by heart. I know every small, small and large body of water in Central California, but I'm just saying like there are... It doesn't make sense.

Especially dinner plans for 6 p.m. and that also means your pregnant wife is like prepping things for Christmas Eve, wrapping last minute gifts, whatever they're doing. You know, it doesn't make sense. Even golfing that morning, like when I have no plans, Vince is like, is it okay if I go golf? And I'm like, yes or no? Yes, always. But it's, you know, it's not thoughtful.

It's not thoughtful. It's not thoughtful. It's the holiday season. And also the thing that always gets me is when there's a lot of extra. So it's like, I'm golfed and then I fished. Well, now I know you're lying because that's when you know people are lying is when there's a bunch of extra frosting where you're just like, you don't need that many items. Just say like, oh, yeah, I mean, to me, that's, I think that's also what that Tim Ropp lying

show that I love so much where they're like micro expressions and all that kind of stuff where it's down to a science, but that really is when you can tell people are lying when they have a bunch of detail that you're like, I don't, I don't care. Yeah. This isn't part of it. It's just like you're over explaining something that if you didn't even, if it wasn't even that big of a deal, it wouldn't even be part of it. Right.

Yes. And you, you have this story, but you didn't work the details out. So you, you went fishing, but you don't know what for and you know the color of the lure, but you don't. Yeah. But you don't know what you were fishing for. Yeah. You just think you're, I think that's just that.

So let's go. I look, I know that we diagnose people on here and it's not correct most of the time, but there's what is on here. What is. So I'm going to say sociopathic tendencies or narcissistic tendencies, which are a thing and that diagnosing someone to think that no one's going to question you because you have an authority and you've never, you don't usually get questioned anyways. And when you do, you act, you gaslight and you act weird and you throw it back at the

person and why, how dare you question me, which just like, which doesn't work on detectives. You got to hope. Right. So. Just side note, I am going to diagnose people and I'm going to get them 5150 on this show. So. I wish it was. Stand warned.

Me and Steven. Stand warned criminals of the past. Who've already been convicted. Yeah. Okay. So. We got 12, the hard line swifts you, I'm going to stop commenting. Modesto police and firefighters, they do an extensive search along Dry Creek the day after

Lacey's disappearance in this search includes helicopters equipped with search lights, mounted police on horseback and bicycles canine units and water rescue units on rafts, which we'll get into later about what a huge search this was as opposed to a pregnant woman who also goes missing around the same time and how it doesn't add up. So I'll get into that later, but a total of 30 officers are involved in the search as well as Lacey's loved ones, volunteers, and they post flyers to raise awareness of her disappearance. At this point, the media is getting involved because it's Christmas time.

So there's not a ton of news to catch up on. But also it's a pretty white woman who's very pregnant and her husband looks guilty. You know? Yes. Yeah. So police go to Scott's warehouse to search and in Scott's boat, they find an 8.6 pound quote homemade anchor that's made out of concrete. It's reinforced with a rebar at the top and there isn't a rope attached to the top like

there would be with a normal anchor. And they also find multiple items with cement residue, a dustpan and pitcher and two large buckets. I don't know what any of that means. Even the boat trailer has some residue on it and one detective says that it's quote, it seems like a tremendous mess for making one 8 pound anchor. Hey, do you know if making anchors yourself is a normal thing for boaters? Here's what I'm going to say.

Speculate. And I'm going to speculate because I'm not a boat expert. Oh, I thought it was worth not a boat. I'm not a boat. No, you don't. If you have, if you've spent the money to have a boat, a fishing boat that could actually, that you could put into the Berkeley, you know, the bay basically, I bet you, you went ahead and splurged for an anchor that came with the boat.

I don't understand. Yeah. Yeah. I would assume or it's a thing that you like, it's an add-on. You know what I mean? And then don't you need one of these. Homemaking an anchor, then there would need to be an explanation of did your anchor snap off?

Yeah. Did what's the story behind that? Because that definitely gets into body dumping and body hiding. Immediately. Immediately. And now the basic version of the LaceyPietersen.com website is launched by the husband of one of her friends and friends, family and volunteers set up a command center and they record developments. They circulate information over 1500 volunteers signed up to distribute information and help

search. In fact, they run out of maps of the area because there's so many volunteers. Can I just say really quick that this reminds me of, I think Modesto might be a little bit bigger than Petaluma, but my lifelong friend Dave Messmer grew up there. So I know about it just through him and it is the kind of thing too, I bet you another reason aside from pregnant woman, white woman, upper middle class or whatever, is that same thing that happened in Petaluma and one polycloth disappeared where the entire town kind of mobilizes because those things don't happen.

It's country-ish, it's small town-ish, it's like the kind of place where people live all their lives. They know everybody, there's lots of people connected and it's that kind of thing of we have to do something. Like community. Yeah. There's real, a very strong community and that kind of thing. Just those details you just gave kind of made me think about, definitely.

But again, that's Modesto speculation. Well, the polycloth's connection I think makes total sense too. It's the same way this town reacted where it's just like, you got to be kidding me, no one has experienced with this before. And then maybe we can find her, it doesn't make sense that someone's missing, I bet we can find her if we look hard. We have to do something and we all want to and so we're going to. So police speak with Lacey's obstetrician and her friends and family and they found

out in early November, Lacey told her doctor that she had started feeling dizzy and light-headed while she walked and she said her feet were swelling, her back hurt, she was tired a lot. Which just sounds like pregnancy stuff, but Lacey's doctor tells her to refrain from exercising that if she has to exercise, do it later in the day. So she allegedly walked the dog that morning, no one saw her doing so, they just found the dog on a leash, you know, making people think she'd walked the dog. And following that appointment, Lacey had told her friends and family that she had to stop walking and continued saying that through December.

So huge red flag. Police speak with the Peterson neighbors and find that on December 24th, multiple people were out and about at the time Lacey supposedly was walking her dog, nobody saw her. However, it is weird, a lot of people saw, said they saw her sightings of her walking the dog later, but it was after the neighbor had put the dog in the yard. So that's just a simple, you know, no, you didn't kind of a thing. No, not lying, but you're incorrect. Police speak with the Peterson's housekeeper, Margarita.

And she says that on December 23rd, Lacey was home when she arrived to work. Margarita says Lacey left around 11 a.m. and came back with groceries. And here's something really telling, she says, Margarita says she mopped the floors before she left for the day at 2.30. One of Scott's descriptions of what they did that morning and what Lacey was going to do was watch Martha Stewart, bake some cookies, take the dog for a walk and mop the floor. So here's Margarita being like, I fucking did it already. Yeah.

Also, you're pregnant. You're very, very pregnant. You're not pregnant. You're dizzy. Yeah. Yeah. If you exert yourself, you're feeling all these like negative, you're get, that's mopping the floor sucks and that you wouldn't be exerting yourself to that level.

Especially if you know, I would imagine if Margarita is their housekeeper, she comes once a week, which means she would know that the floor would be mopped, she would do herself. And then the other thing too is like Scott Peterson, she's just going to be like cool with him going golfing while the floor needs to be mopped. Like, you know, that's not a thing. So the next day, Scott has another interview with the police and police again asked Scott if there's any problems in the marriage, like, are you having an affair? Scott says no.

He suggests that Lacey might have been robbed for her jewelry by a transient and then kidnapped. And she did inherit some jewelry from her grandma recently. So maybe that's why he brought that up. Later that day, Scott calls the police and asks if they're going to use cadaver dogs to search for Lacey the day after she went missing. And the police say no because Lacey's actually not assumed dead, Scott. After Christmas passes, police searched the Peterson's home again and Scott's warehouse again.

In the house, police find that none of Lacey's jewelry is missing except for a pair of diamond earrings that Lacey could have been wearing when she disappeared. Police also find traces of Scott's blood on a comforter in the master bedroom. I don't know how much blood that was, so that's just kind of traces sounds like not much. In the backyard shed, police find a blue tarp and a cover for Scott's boat and the cover has chunks of concrete on it and a leaf blower is sitting on top of it and the cover smells of gasoline possibly from the leaf blower leaking. So police believe that the gasoline could have been used to deter those potential cadaver

and search dogs from smelling anything on the cover. And Scott's truck police find spots of his blood. Scott explains it away by saying he had cut his hand on the truck door. In the truck bed, police find small clumps of cement and a claw hammer with cement powder on it, but I want to say that they didn't find any of Lacey's blood. At the warehouse, which there might not have been any, I don't know. At the warehouse in Scott's boat, police find a pair of pliers under the middle seat and the pliers have a hair of Lacey's clamped in the teeth.

But only one hair but clamped in the teeth is not a good thing. On December 28th, dogs are used to search for Lacey's presence at the Berkeley Marina and they alert to Lacey's scent along the path that leads out onto the dock and ends at the water. Police also search the Bay Area for evidence but are unsuccessful. And then two days later, everything fucking cracks wide open when this woman named Amber Frey, she's a massage therapist from the nearby city of Fresno, contacts the police. She says that she is in a relationship with Scott.

She thought he was unmarried with no children. She says their first date was on November 20th after they met through a mutual friend. So a fucking month before. This is when in LA, I started paying attention to this case because it was so like, you know, I don't think I'd just seen anything about it. And then it was like, oh fuck, here we go. Yes. You know?

Just that. Yeah. Do it. Your hand. I want everyone to know your hand is in your, your head is in your hand. It's the same, I've said this 20 times on this show. I just don't understand now. This idea, this thing, this cheating thing, you are starting a life with a person.

You are going to have a child with a person like, it doesn't, I just don't understand that. I don't. I don't think you can. Just break up. Say you can't do it. Do something. I understand it's easier said than done, but.

No, it's not. And Karen, you don't have, you don't have sociopathic and narcissistic tendencies. Thank you. You're welcome. I know you always think you do, but you don't, which I think is a factor. I mean, there's a million factors in cheating, but what's it called? Chronic cheaters? Just, it feels like you just, you know, you don't think you're going to get caught.

You don't think the rules apply to you. You don't understand that your friends and families, emotions are involved. You don't understand how detrimental to someone's life this could be to your own child, to your fucking pregnant wife. Yes. And, and even when you get caught and in trouble for it, you do it, serial cheaters. That's what it is. You just keep doing it.

I don't get it. It's almost like this is the beginning of this life where it's like, it's only going to get harder, the child's like the, the mentality of that is what it's just like this is a project. It's a concept of starting a family that you're only in step one and you're already going backwards. That's, that's what I don't get where it's like, if you didn't want to do it or you weren't ready or whatever, it just doesn't make sense to me, but you're, you're right. There are people who are just like, Oh, I'm just going to do this the whole time.

So whatever, whichever way this happens. Yeah. This is fine. I'm going to look for opportunities. And if they happen, then I'm going to take them. It's gross. It's super gross. And this is where there should absolutely be some sort of litmus test or it's like, okay,

you're going to marry this person, but real quick, we're going to put this strip under your tongue. Oh, sorry. You didn't pass. So you just go fuck a bunch of random people for the rest of your life and don't bring innocent people. And leave her alone. Absolutely.

Um, and I will, there's, there's this whole like other fucking thing we could talk about about Amber Frey and how she was portrayed in the media, you know, it's two, two, so this is like, you know, way prior to understanding that even if she knew he was married, it's, it's not on her. No, his decisions are not on her. However, she didn't know. Okay. She says that on their first date, Scott told her that he had an upcoming trip to Maine

and Europe and that he'd be gone for some of December and most of January, which wasn't true. See my point, Maine and Europe, pick one, just, it's, it's always double facts in the lies. Keep your eyes peeled. That's the extra frosting. If you're going to go to Maine, why are we talking about Europe or Maine doesn't, wouldn't Europe kind of overshadow a main trip as, and I'm saying that as a huge fan of Maine.

Totally. That these are the things we have to keep our eyes peeled for. That's a great point. Amber says that their relationship became serious enough for Scott to go to parties with her as her date and she trusted him enough to pick up her 21 month-year-old daughter from daycare, which after a month of dating, I, you know, she seems like she really wanted to trust someone. She, and well, it also felt like she felt like she really knew someone and that's the

difference. I would say this. Modesto and Fresno aren't that close together. Yeah. So, so she was, if she, if he was going to parties with her in her hometown, then he probably felt free and easy to do that because it's at least, I would get, this is purely guessing. I think it's like two hours away.

Wow. Okay. The other thing is that, that just is like typical love bombing, which is what sociopaths do when they snare a woman or a man or vice versa, whatever, when they snare someone is love bombing. Yep. Where they're like, it's me, the man of your dreams. Yeah.

I love you. I'm going to make plans with you. It's been a month, you know, we've all seen it. Yeah. So Amber tells police that on December 6th, her friend found out that Scott was married and the friend told Scott that he has to tell Amber he was married by the 9th or she would tell Amber herself, which is a good way to do it. I feel like.

Yes. You know, cause she needs to hear it from him. So on December 9th, Scott told Amber what, while he was quote sobbing hysterically, convenient that he was anyone, anyone can cry, anyone can cry 100%. He tells her sobbing hysterically that he was married, but he had lost his wife lost and said this would be his first Christmas without her. So he piles on the lies. He becomes, you know what this, that is a, is that a narcissist or narcissist trait

where they take the, when they're found guilty, they turn it around and become the victim. That's a, it's a way of deflecting of like, you know, you are, you're confronting me about this right now, but now I'm going to make you feel bad. Yeah. You're going to be the one apologizing by the end of this call. So. So he quote lost his wife and he said that this would be his first Christmas without her, which is fucking foreshadowing.

And then he has to like live up to what he said, probably, you know, and he said, it was really painful for him to talk about. And that's why he hadn't told her he was married. Wow. I know. I mean, two days later. Okay. Go ahead.

No. I just want to say like, everybody lies. We all do it. That's a big one. I mean. And she can find out easy. It's the internet. Facebook exists.

I don't know. And she can find out. Yes. And you're doubling down about like whether or not your actual living wife at the time is, is, is alive. So it makes me assume that he's been fantasizing about this, that this idea of getting rid of people or that it just, that it underlines that thing of it's all about him and everybody else.

I was just thinking about the fact that his, his, the woman he cheated on with came into their bedroom. And that's how she found out is that he's not good at cheating because he doesn't think he needs to hide his tracks, you know what I mean? Because he's smarter than everybody. He thinks he's smarter than everyone else. And it doesn't seem like he's learned much from that. You know, because he doesn't think it'll happen again.

So two days later, Scott began, so two days after he told Amber this huge lie, he starts searching the web for information on tidal movements in the San Francisco Bay. The next day, Scott bought a fishing boat for $1,400 cash and then tearfully tried to convince Amber that he was a recent widower. Like those all happen at the same time. Amber continues telling police that on December 14th, Scott told her that he didn't need a biological child of his own and that Amber's daughter was enough for him and he'd help raise her as his own and would get a vasectomy if need be.

So clearly not someone who wants to be or is ready to be a father. Yeah. Amber says that on December 15th, Scott told her that he had, quote, some business to take care of before his trip to Europe and he said that they could stay in contact by phone. And on December 23rd, the day before, at least he goes missing, Scott tells Amber he was in Maine already, duck hunting with his dad before he went to Europe. Information information. Amber tells police that although Scott didn't call her on Christmas Eve, he did call her

on Christmas day, the day after she went missing and said he was still in Maine. Like how chilling when Amber finds all this shit out. It really is. It's a horror movie. It's a horror movie. It's scary. Yeah. It really is scary.

Amber, and especially because he's not in jail yet, he's out and about. She has all this information that, I mean, who knows if it would have come to light if she hadn't come forward. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right. Imagine that you're kind of slowly putting these things together. Oh, God.

That's awful. Amber took her. Yeah. She felt safe because she was going to the police and was like, I need this. Okay. Yeah. Amber tells police that after a December 27th phone call from Scott, so after Lacey goes missing, she starts questioning Scott's whereabouts because she was like, things are

not adding up. She spoke with a police officer friend before she knew Lacey went missing and told him about her suspicions. And on December 30th, the officer told Amber that Scott was connected to a missing woman in Modesto named Lacey Peterson. The officer suggested Amber call the tip line and so that's what she did. Her friend seemed like level headed people, which is a great thing to surround yourself with.

Yes. In life. Yeah. High five to the friend that was just like tell her, you have five days or whatever. It's not on people. Like deadline. You fucking tell her. I'm not gossiping.

We're actually taking care of business right now. That's right. That's pretty cool. That is. So after telling police her story, Amber's like, look, I will tape all future phone calls with Scott and I'll just, I'm going to be a great actress and pretend that I don't know anything about Lacey at all, which is awesome. On New Year's Eve, the vigils held for Lacey family and friends of the whole community

are there. I know this is a side, but while they're Scott seems to be quote, very relaxed and in a very good mood. Pills. Huh. Pills. Pills. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean like. You don't even need them though. True. So okay. At the vigil, Scott uses the background noise as his cover to call Amber and tell her he is in Paris by the Eiffel Tower. Stephen is covering his entire face.

I remember hearing this. Yeah. You could hear it all. After the fact and that, that one. And it's also. Yeah. Chilling. And she's on the phone being like, okay.

She knows. And she's on the phone with him and she's like, I got to play this off. It's incredible. And what a fucking piece of shit. He says he's watching fireworks over the Eiffel Tower. Then on New Year's Day, he calls Amber and says he's still in Europe. These calls are all being recorded by police. I know.

Okay. Can it wait? No. Go. I think we were being very self-consciously fair at the beginning of this and about our speculation and we were pulling in all of our lessons and we were discussing it in the new way that we've learned to discuss things. Here's the thing for Karen Kylgera.

Once we learn the information that at his own missing wife's vigil, he's calling the girlfriend a goodbye. I'm done. Yeah. And he's using the hubbub of his own family and Lacey's family and the whole community's sorrow to pretend that he's celebrating. And you can listen to what he's like, oh, it's a mate. He is creeping it all out.

It's so gross. Chilling. It's so gross. It made me refer to myself in the third person. I'm horrified. I'm horrified. I'm sorry. It really is.

We took you there. This is also, I mean, there's plenty of similar stories, but this is also one of, it's one of those ones where it always makes. I think because like I know people from Modesto because I know the area, it just is like, it works you out. It's so awful. It gets you so worked up. The details are just disgusting.

Yeah. Okay. Sorry, I had to look at my phone because I became so obsessed with how far away Modesto is from. Oh, I looked it up too. You were right, Karen. I mean, because there's no traffic right now. So obviously it's an hour and a half, but you know, in daytime, of course, it'd be

like two hours or something. Good job, guys. Because I was also like, that is so insane to go out with someone in that situation. That's a very good point. Yeah. But it's like, okay. Leave that in there. I don't know, you guys.

Okay. So the next day after the vigil, Scott suggests to police that Lacey had been kidnapped for her baby, which does happen. You've covered a case like that before. And then Thorny's had considered the possibility and they send information to hospitals nationwide to keep a lookout for anything suspicious. So on January 3rd, 2003, police show Scott a picture of him and Amber together, which is clearly from a Christmas party that's so recent.

And Scott says it's not him in the photo and that maintains he's not having anything. Wow. Uh-huh. Like the mind meld. You have to do to think you're convincing people of what you're saying, police detectives. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very special personality type that's like, doesn't immediately get the weird stomach

feeling and then it's like, oh no, a bad thing is happening. He's just like, don't, no reality is not real. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Meanwhile, police find that back on December 7th, just a couple of weeks before Lacey goes missing and the day after Amber's friend threatens to tell on him, Scott started searching the classifieds for a boat and searched boat ramps on the Pacific Ocean. He also looked over nautical charts, currents and maps for the Berkeley Marina and the San

Francisco Bay, including the area around Brooks Island. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. On December 9th, Scott buys a 14-foot aluminum boat. He doesn't register the boat or tell anyone about the boat and police also find that there weren't many people even fishing on December 24th. So in my mind, I was like, is rainy and windy and gray seems like a cool time to boat. But actually, if you're, especially if you're going to do it in the San Francisco Bay, which

is so choppy and crazy, I mean, freezing cold, choppy, dangerous, yeah, there's no pluses here, unless there's somebody, unless you had like, you know, like a lobster trawler or something that was like, it's a big and sturdy, I don't, yeah, well, it doesn't make any sense. It's a bold one. Yeah. And only three boat launch fees were collected from December 23rd through the 27th, meaning like fucking everyone was like, this is not a time that you boat or fish.

Yeah. There's just no way. And also, you know, the thing I was saying before is there's other places he could have gone fishing. But the San Francisco Bay is where the tide is so strong and it would all take it out to sea. Yeah. Right.

So that's just popped into my head of pot, maybe could have been the logic of it, which is you're not going to go to a lake. Yeah. You're not going to go to a nearby, whatever, you're not going to go to Stockton where it's kind of, you know, like, I don't even think easy breezy. Yeah. I mean, it's not the, it's not the same. It's like he wants it to get swept out to sea.

That's really good. And if that's insider information, you know, that like not everyone knows the undertow in San Francisco is really, really dangerous or that the everything gets swept out. I mean, Ask me about low tide and high tide because I know, I know it all. Oh, I'm waiting to ask. This is just a person, this is just information from a person who drives along, like I drive along the Berkeley marina as yeah, that's kind of my drive home when I go to Petaluma

and it's all, it all makes me not an expert in any way, but I do have my theories. Your podcast. Yeah. So guess what? It's our podcast. This is, this is my literal Bay Area podcast. Okay. Police start to suspect that Scott put Lacey's body in the boat and then slipped her into

the water. And to test this theory, here's, this is bonkers to me. They ask a district attorney's office employee who was approximately the same stage of pregnancy and wait as Lacey was to see if she can fit in the bottom of Scott's boat. She says, yes, I guess, doesn't ask for any cold hard cash for the fucking pleasure. And she can fit on December 6th. Police ask Amber to call Scott and quote, drop hints that a friend has learned the truth about something Amber needed to know about and would tell her in a few hours, which yeah,

I think he's betting on her being an hour and a half or two hours away that she's not going to find out, but now the news story is blowing up and he has to know, right? So then when Amber asked Scott if he knew where Lacey was, now he replies, quote, she's alive in Modesto. Scott finally admits to Amber that he hasn't been in Maynard, Europe, and also admits to her that he is married and says his wife Lacey knows about the affair and is quote, fine with it. I mean, just, he's a disgrace, it's discussed.

And even if he, even if let's say that's true and he, and she does know he's still a fucking liar. Cause he, you know, yes. But I mean, yeah, but yeah, just at the other side of it, which is the thing that eventually is proven to be true, which is his wife is dead by his hand and he's lying on her name, using her name to try to justify shit with his, his mistress, this woman who's, who he's tricking, like the levels, like the depths he's going to, it is just really, it's like inhuman.

And the fact that he doesn't even consider that maybe she's already gone to police, maybe she's recording these calls, he thinks he has her under his thumb. Cause he's the smartest. Yeah. That's right. So later that month news about Scott and Amber's affair is made public and Lacey's family, they had been supporting Scott and even like ended a news conference early because they started asking questions about his involvement.

They just immediately stopped supporting him, which was great, right? So then on January 28th, Scott sits down for an interview with Diane Sawyer and he tells her that Lacey is fine with the, was fine with the affair. And then he did meanly told the police about the affair that Lacey was fine with. He also refers to her as was instead of is a couple of times and then fixes his mistake and it's just, I think the interview made everyone go, oh fuck, you know, like immediately including Diane Sawyer. He tearfully in the interview refers to his marriage as quote, glorious, okay.

And then when, when she asked if Lacey knew about the affair, Scott said yes. And that added that, well, quote, I can't say that she was okay with the idea. It wasn't enough to tear them apart. God damn. Around this time, police set up a surveillance camera to watch the Peterson home. They also put GPS tracking devices on all of his personal and rented vehicles. And then between January 5th and January 27th, Scott drives around 90 miles from his house to the Berkeley marina five times.

Each time driving a different vehicle, while at the marina, Scott would drive around sometimes only staying for a few minutes suspicious, dude. So theoretically, the assumption could be that he's going to make sure her body isn't showing up. Of course. Of course. So by mid January, Scott's making some odd decisions. He gives 30 days notice that he's terminating his boat warehouse lease, which isn't supposed

to be up until October. He also speaks to multiple realtors about selling his and Lacey's home. He trades Lacey's car in for a truck. He turns the baby Connors already decorated, fully decorated nursery with nautical theme, everything into a storage space. I know. Oh. So the room had an elegant, tiny white crib, a mobile of sale boats and a buoy that was

tacked to the wall that read welcome aboard. Like this was ready for the baby and he just starts using the storage. Police find out that Scott's business hadn't been doing well leading up to Lacey's disappearance. It hadn't been making a profit. In fact, the business has a net operating loss of $136,000 and they owe their parent company $190,000. Police also find out that in November, 2002, Lacey had inherited more than $100,000 worth of jewelry from her grandmother and Scott had encouraged Lacey to have some of the, have

the jewelry appraised and on December 10th, Lacey and Scott went to sell some of that jewelry at a pawn shop and police speak with the pawn store employees and find out that Lacey quote seemed agitated and hesitant there and she pushed Scott's hand away when he rubbed her belly. Oh, like tried to soothe her and she was like, don't fucking touch me. Amber continues helping police by taping her calls with Scott acting like she has no idea that Scott was a suspect in his wife's disappearance. And then on February 19th at the advice of the police, Amber tells Scott that they should

stop talking and he agrees. I don't really know why because it seemed like they were getting some good info. A $500,000 reward is announced for information leading to Lacey and Connors return. And then no one comes forward with information and given the larger reward, it seems unlikely then that there are multiple people involved in Lacey's disappearance because, you know, the more sizable the reward, the more likely some guy who got paid 30 grand is going to be like, fuck this shit. You know, right?

Yeah. For the next few months, police continue to follow up on leads and sightings. Scott doesn't seem to take an active interest in the investigation. He takes days to get back to police when they reach out and he tells family and friends that he's in constant contact with the police. On April 13th, less than four months since Lacey's disappearance, just over a mile from the southern tip of Brooks Island, a couple walking their dog find a decomposing. Okay, this is really rough.

I'm just going to go, I'm just not give details, but they find the well-preserved body of the late-term male fetus in a marshy area of the San Francisco Bay shore. Oh, horrible. It's just horrible. Horrifying. It's a, the baby's umbilical cord is still attached due to a recent storm. The body had washed ashore with other debris and an autopsy shows that Conor had been in Lacey's uterus for quote, some time after Lacey's death.

And the medical examiner believes Conor hadn't been out of Lacey's body for long when he was found. Oh, gosh. Just worse. A scenario. I never heard that detail. That's awful. That's awful.

The next morning, Lacey's body is discovered by a woman walking her dog on the shoreline at Point Isabel, which is south of where Conor's body had been found and also around a mile from Brooks Island. More horrible details, Lacey, Lacey's body has barnacles and duct tape on it, as well as residual clumps of fabric proved to be from light-colored pants, which match the description of the pants Lacey's sister had seen her wearing the day before Lacey disappeared. Although Scott had told police that when she last saw her, she was wearing black pants, which I just realized means he could have killed her the night before and then dispose

of her body that day. It didn't even occur to me. An autopsy shows that Lacey died while pregnant and she'd been in the water for three to six months. The autopsy shows that the tidal action and marine animals are to blame for Lacey's missing body parts. Due to the condition of the body, no cause of death can be determined. Lacey's mother, Sharon, called Scott to tell him about the discovery of the body.

Scott doesn't return her call. I mean, this poor family. When police call Scott to tell him about the discovery, Scott does not go back to the Bay Area. He's now in San Diego with his family and he doesn't return, which we're not on the side, but that could be because of the media coverage. It could be because he wants to be with his family. Could be other reasons.

At this point, police think Scott is going to flee. So he had purchased a car with cash using his mother's name and a fake driver's license. He had also altered his appearance by growing a gross goatee and mustache and dyeing his hair in orange blonde color. Yep. I remember that. So creepy. Police arrest Scott on April 18th and with him, Scott has almost $15,000 in cash and foreign

currency. He's got two drivers licenses, his own and his brothers, a family member's credit card, camping and survival gear, a lot of extra clothes, multiple cell phones, and more, including 12 Viagra tablets. Ew. So he was absolutely fleeing to Mexico. 100%. Yeah.

To live off the grid. A trial, the prosecutors say Scott wanted to be free of Lacey and Connor, so he killed Lacey sometime on the night of December 23rd or the morning of December 24th. In order to cover up the murder on the morning of the 24th, he lets the dog out on the leash to make it look like something happened while Lacey was walking and then wrap Lacey's body in a tarp and put it in the bed of his truck, covered her with patio umbrellas, drove it to the warehouse and put her body in his boat. Scott then drove to the Berkeley Marina, went out to an area near Brooks Island, attached

Lacey's body to a homemade concrete weights and quote, slipped again, I don't know why that word keeps coming up, her body into the bay. Then Scott dropped the boat off at the warehouse, went home and put the boat cover in the shed under a leaky gas blower so any scent would be obscured and then washed his clothes and acted like Lacey was missing. The defense says that police focused their investigation on Scott from the beginning and then refused to look into other leads or suspects. To prove their point, the defense tells the jury that there have been a burglary on the

Peterson Street the week of her disappearance, which is very odd. They say that also- Is it? I mean- I guess Christmas time was probably a really normal time for break-ins. We've all seen Home Alone, the documentary, that people liked to canvas the area and steal shit. Yeah.

Everyone's out of town, right? I think the difference between a B&E, that's technical term, and a kidnapped murderer, which is what they're trying to say, those two things are connected, I don't think so or at least that doesn't seem common. Not to say things can't get cased or pre-broken into or anything like that, but that's basically trying to clump all of the crimes that happen in a city into one. Here's what the counterpoint to that is to people who think you didn't do it, is that she was home, they tried to B&E, she caught them, they killed her, but her car was in

the driveway. I don't think you break into people's homes and their cars in the driveway and there's a dog home. Those are two deterrents. I don't think that after you kill them, you drive them two hours away to get rid of the body. Right. Yes.

Yes. It's so much. God, I hate this story so much. I know. That's why we haven't done it in so long and I'm doing it. Yeah. Sorry. No.

They also say that on December 23rd, a stranger was walking around the neighborhood asking for money and possibly casing houses for future burglaries that sounds like a next-door app. Yes. Fucking post where then everyone yells at that person rightly so for being an asshole. Yeah. The defense says the police didn't follow up to see if there was a connection between Lacey's murder and the burglary or the stranger, but they did catch the burglars and I'm assuming

they must have been like, this is not legit or they're not suspects somehow, which I think is another argument is that the police didn't do a great job with and immediately saw Scott as a suspect, but it's also like, well, Scott was the main suspect and never helped to clear himself of being such. You know, this is a thing that I think happens in discussions like this sometimes where they I feel like the defense of people who are guilty like to pull in arguments from cases where people have been wrongfully convicted and then start going, you did this thing where it's like, but actually the, all of the footsteps lead right up to this man's door.

And this isn't, yeah. Also, he's on the top of the list. He never gets off of that top of the list because over and over things are pointing to him. So you look into numbers two, three, four, five, there's nothing that would kick him out of first place. Correct. You know, so that seems like how investigations work.

Yeah. So the jury does find Scott guilty of one count of first degree murder for killing Lacey and one count of second degree murder for killing their unborn son. Judge Alfred A. Delucci sentences Scott to death. He calls the murder of Lacey, quote, cruel and carrying heartless and callous. On Scott Peterson's first day on death row, Karen, two women called California's San Quentin State prison to say they were interested in marrying him. Yeah.

That's the darkest side of this kind of stuff where it's like the interest, this isn't dark. It's a dark place. It's not good and it is a very odd outcropping of these cases. It's very bizarre. So in 2004, the Unborn Victims of Violence Act or Lacey and Connor's law is passed. The act states that anyone who causes bodily injury or death to a child who is in utero is guilty of a separate offense. The punishment for the separate offense is the same as the punishment for injuring or

killing the unborn child's mother. In October 2005, Stanislaus County, California Superior Court Judge Roger Buchesny ruled that Scott was not entitled, listen to this, to collect on Lacey's $250,000 life insurance policy. Good. Good call. So he probably thought that that was going to come too because he was going to trick everyone and all this shit.

And I bet if he knew about the burglary the day before, right, he probably was like going to blame it from the beginning on them, get that life insurance policy. Guess what buddy, you still can't get it in prison because you've been convicted of a murder which just takes you off the list. It's the thing too. This happens a lot in these stories where that you see the murderer or the perpetrator of the crime doing this very odd math of like, I have to clear my debts, so how can I get that done?

Like your insurance, your insurance, like how many times have we told these stories where people, it's just kind of like, oh, I have to pay this money off, so I'm going to kill my wife or I'm going to kill my husband. Yeah. Like it's this insane illogical problem solving where it's like, this isn't going to solve it. Yeah, it's A to B in their mind and they don't understand how complicated they're actually and horrible their act is.

Yeah. It's disgusting. It's crazy. In 2005, Scott's sister Ann Bird releases a book titled Blood Brother, 33 Reasons My Brother Scott Peterson Is Guilty, while living with the birds, her family, and claim that Scott Peterson flirted with her babysitter and made passing remarks about how the police were looking for Lacey in the wrong place. Oh no.

I know. In 2006, Lacey's mother Sharon Rocha releases a book titled For Lacey, A Mother's Story of Love, Loss and Justice, and All Proceeds Are Used to Fund the Lacey and Connor Search and Rescue Fund, which she had founded. Oh, I know. Sharon also discusses victims' rights, which she campaigns regularly for. Lacey's stepfather Ron Gransky dies in his sleep at his Modesto home in April of 2018 at age 71 after a lengthy period of failing health.

He's buried next to Lacey and Connor. I know. And Lacey's father Dennis Rocha dies December 2018 at the age of 72. Amber Frey testified against Peterson, and today she's a practicing massage therapist, and she said to have opened her own day spa in Central California. She is a traveler, outdoor enthusiast, successful author, and a mother of two. And her book, Witness for the Prosecution of Scott Peterson, was released in January of 2005.

Because Scott was sentenced to death, his sentence is automatically appealed. His appeal goes all the way to the Supreme Court of California, and in August 2020, they affirmed Scott's conviction but ordered a new sentencing hearing due to mistakes made during jury selection. While Scott's jury was being selected, the judge excluded 13 potential jurors who were opposed to the death penalty, and the judge didn't ask the jurors if they would put their beliefs aside and follow the law, which is an error. As of this month, May 2021, Scott has not been resentenced, and there are people fighting

to prove his innocence. The website, scottpedersonappeal.org, states that other suspects and evidence proving Scott's innocence exists, but police didn't look into any of it. And people who believe innocence, say the prosecution spent two years investigating Lacey's death, but couldn't say when or how she was killed. And they say that the- Sorry, that's because her body was in the bay for three months. Her head was never found.

So they can't tell, you know, a strangulation seems like the obvious choice, a gunshot wound to the head. I feel like they would have found traces of that, but strangulation alone is just like impossible to tell because of that reason. And yeah, she was in a bay. They also said the media provided false information about Scott because they wanted ratings, which- Sure. Yeah.

So now let's talk about Evelyn Hernandez, a woman often referred to as the other Lacey Peterson. So both Evelyn and Lacey were from the San Francisco Bay area. They were both far along in their pregnancies when they were murdered and were found washed up on the shores of the bay. But unlike Lacey, Evelyn's story barely received any media attention. I didn't find out about this one until years after Lacey Peterson's case. When Evelyn Hernandez was 14 years old, she legally emigrates from El Salvador to the

United States. While attending high school and working multiple jobs in San Francisco, Evelyn becomes pregnant with a son who she names Alexis. When her son is five years old, Evelyn starts dating a man named Herman Aguilera and becomes pregnant with his baby and is really excited. She plans to name her son Fernando and his due date is May 7th, 2002. Herman on the other hand is not excited about the baby. So Evelyn calls Herman's mother to see why he isn't happy.

And Herman's mother tells Evelyn that Herman is married and Evelyn had not known that at all. I know. On May 1st, 2002, Evelyn is seen with Alexis at his school, but this is the last time Evelyn or Alexis are seen alive. When Evelyn's due date, May 7th arrives and there's no sign of Evelyn or Alexis, then Herman reports them missing. At first, police think Evelyn and Alexis have gone back to El Salvador to be with Evelyn's

family. But when a few days pass and Evelyn's wallet is found a few blocks from Herman's place of work, police start to suspect foul play. In July of 2002, Evelyn's body still wearing maternity clothes is found washed up along the Embarcadero, San Francisco Bay's Eastern Waterfront, which is a long-wear fisherman's wharf is. Evelyn's body is so decomposed that there are only partial remains left and there's no trace of a little Alexis.

It's never been no traces ever been found. Police speak with Herman's wife who provides him an alibi, although no details of that alibi are ever released. Most likely means that she said Herman was with her the day Evelyn and Alexis were thought to have gone missing. A few months later, Herman stops cooperating with the police and to this day, Evelyn's murder and Alexis' disappearance are completely unsolved, but also so much less known than Lacey Peterson's.

Beth Spotswood for Alta Online wrote, quote, facts surrounding Herman's alibi aren't clear. In contrast, the most minuscule details surrounding the disappearance of Lacey Peterson have been established right down to her last Trader Joe's receipt. Beth wrote that no one assumed that Lacey just left town, even though the father of her child was having an affair just like Evelyn's. There was no, quote, media frenzy, hotlines, vigils, or national news coverage for Evelyn. In fact, she barely made the local news. The San Francisco Chronicle published 32 stories about Lacey between her disappearance

and Scott's arrest, and there were with four of those being on the front page, the same paper had four stories about Evelyn with none on the front page. So let's talk about statistics. In 2015, the CDC reported that homicide is the fifth leading cause of death for women. Nearly half of female homicide victims are killed by a current or former male partner. Around 15% of those women were pregnant. And while the CDC doesn't list homicide as a leading cause of death for pregnant women, the risk of homicide is twice as high for women who are pregnant, which is mind boggling

and awful. That's scary. Other studies that use more data than the CDC have in fact proven that homicide is one of the leading causes of death for pregnant women. According to the CDC, there are, quote, considerable racial and ethnic disparities in pregnancy-related mortality. Black women are the most affected with 41.7 out of 100,000 pregnancy-related deaths. Native American or Alaska Native women are next with 28.3, Asian or Pacific Islander women follow with 13.8, white women have a rate of 13.4, and Hispanic or Latino women

have a rate of 11.6. The reason for the disparities may be due to the access and quality of care, structural racism, and more. Due to the increase in murdered pregnant women, obstetricians are encouraged to talk with their patients about domestic violence, offer education and many resources as possible, and that's critical to it in helping women. I just want to say to end it, if you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 800-799-7233, and we'll post this on all

the social medias for this episode. In light of that, we are going to be donating 100% of the proceeds from our Black and White MFM logo pin to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, so please check that out and support and call if you need help, and that is the story of Lacey Peterson. Wow. Amazing job. Thank you. That was great.

That was really good, and really, really fucking awful, and yeah. I want to thank my new researcher, Hailey Gray, because when I told her we were doing this case, which I've hesitated on doing, we both have, I think, for a long time, she was like that, I am obsessed with that case, and so she did so much research, and so she did a really incredible job of researching that. She did. Yeah, that was long, but completely worth it, and worth it, you know, worth the time, because those stories, look, the reason there's lots of people interested, and the reason

that there's websites and da-da-da-da, is because that story did occupy the media and the nation for so long, and it was this kind of thing of where is this woman, but what a great point to make of like, it doesn't happen every single time, and that's the kind of thing that like, it's obvious, and yet none of us, you know, we don't, we have been consuming media for a long time, but this is the beginning of really analyzing and hopefully re-approaching it in that way where the priorities, these priorities are kind of long-standing, where the way newspapers, the way the media decides what story is valid, you know, we've been watching it for a long time, and we have talked about it before of like, you know,

you watch those old cold case files, it's blonde girls, it's young, and they always talk about how beautiful they are, and they're always, you know, it's always white, white women. Saying that they didn't deserve, essentially like these people didn't deserve, other people deserve it more than these people deserve it, even like, you know, sex workers are quote at risk, lifestyles, so they just, they're deserving of it in the mind of, you know, the media. Yeah, or just in the subtext of what's being served up, so that changing or people making

an effort toward shining a light on that is good and important, and yeah, and it, yeah, great job. Thank you. Well, you'll go next week, I'm, thank you so much for listening and speculating with me. Yes, absolutely. Well, it's, it is, that case is fascinating, I mean, it's just, it really is. Monsters right there in the suburbs with you, it's, it's horrifying.

Definitely, yeah, we're, we're back, we're doing shows, we're in it, we're doing it. And so thanks for listening, of course, you guys, thanks for, thanks for being in this with us. There's lots, lots of you who, who, some of you have even been in it from the very beginning, but it's really nice. And it really is a joy, like being up here, but then being like going in and being like, okay, I'm going to go record my podcast now. Talk to my friends.

Yeah, it's really fun, and it's, it's fun to have this creepy interest and know that we're not alone. I was telling my new orthopedic surgeon about it, because he was like, I have a 26 year old daughter and I was like, ask her if she listens to my podcast, tell her I say hi. She doesn't. She doesn't say hi anyway. Are you our street team? I am.

And it was like, he was like, okay, you weirdo. Sounds good. Oh, thank you to Steven Ray Morris for being our, our intrepid, what's it called? Yeah. Engineer. Engineer and Yeti. Yeah. We appreciate you.

What do you mean? Sherpa? Sherpa. I could also be the Yeti too. And you're our Bigfoot, and you always have been. Oh my God. I love that. Sherpa.

Not Yeti. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Goodbye. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? You know, he's online. He's trolling sex workers.

The question is he hasn't done it, so is he in a crazy cooling off period? Because we know it's not this crazy barking dog compulsion to do this, serial killers get married, they find a different job. I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson, and this is 10-Fold More Wicked Presents Wicked Words. You might have heard of my other True Crime podcast, 10-Fold More Wicked, on Exactly Right. Over the past year, I've traveled around the world, interviewing people for the show, and many of those people are writers. They've had so many great True Crime stories, and now we want to tell you those stories with

details that have never been published. New York Times bestselling author Brian Burrow tells me about going to high school with a serial killer. Dude, if you're lying about this, you're lying about everything. He was a naked plea for sympathy from these women. He wanted their sympathy. Well, it's manipulation. Yeah.

Michael Hall with Texas Monthly investigates a twisted Texas story that sent innocent people to prison. Am I the only one who's surprised that there's a swingers club in a tiny little town like Miniola? Not only was there a swingers club in Miniola, there were swingers clubs all over East Texas. Oh, well, who knew? Sarah Wyman writes about the True Crime story that inspired the controversial novel Lolita. What is it that we take away from this?

To me, the bigger picture is who matters. So with Sally Warner, it was really important for me to figure out who she was as a person. Pamela Koloff with the New York Times Magazine and ProPublica follows the murder of a woman in Texas and her husband Joe's wrongful conviction. This was just a very bloody, messy crime scene. Four shots seems like a lot to me for a robber, for a meek woman who was in bed. One thing I've always wondered was whether Mickey heard someone come into the house. She knew Joe was out of town, grabbed the gun.

I can completely imagine her not able to actually fire that weapon. Was it rested away from her? Information forensic psychologist Dr. Katherine Ramsland shows me a paper cube that BTK killer Dennis Rader made for her in prison. He calls this cubing, and on each side, there is a label like church leader, employee, family man, serial killer. They have no roots in any of these. They can pivot quickly to whichever one works for them in any given situation.

I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson. Join me for 10-Full War Wicked Presents, Wicked Words. A deep dive into the stories behind the stories, Wicked Words premieres Monday, May 17th on Exactly Right with new episodes each week. Follow 10-Full War on Twitter and 10-Full War Wicked on Facebook and Instagram. Subscribe now and find Wicked Words on the 10-Full War Wicked feed on Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.