My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 283 - MFM Guest Host Picks #6: Danielle Henderson

Episode Date: July 15, 2021

This summer, Exactly Right family members will be guest hosting My Favorite Murder! Each week a guest host will pick their favorite stories from Karen and Georgia. Today's episode is hosted by Danielle Henderson, co-host of I Saw What You Did on Exactly Right. Danielle shares the stories of Who Put Bella in the Wych Elm? (Episode 10) and Lord Lucan (Episode 45).See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime, and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. My name is Danielle Henderson. I am the guest host this week. I am also the co-host of the I Saw What You Did podcast here on the Exactly Right Network, and I am so excited to bring you some stories today. I've been friends with Karen for a while, and I'm a fan of this podcast and a fan of this work in general. George is a new friend, but I just really, I wanted to pick some stories that kind of give a feel for not just what the show is,

but also what their personalities are because I think their personalities is what brings most of us to the show. I originally wanted to pick the Mary Vincent story because when I first heard that story, I texted Karen like eight times throughout and was just like, I cannot believe this. What? Oh my god, I cannot believe this. What? Really, it is the pinnacle of stories to me, one of the most harrowing stories I've ever heard. But luckily, there are several of those in the catalog of my favorite murder. So let's get to it. MUSIC So I picked, for George's story, Who Put Bella in the Witch Elm from episode 10. It's an early

episode, which I think is always fun to revisit. And I love this story because it kind of has, it has such a distinct mystery element to it. And it really has a questioning element to this story that leaves you wondering what actually happened. I love the way Georgia tells the story. It's just so full of humor. And I think that that's also part of the reason why I chose this story, is that you really get to see the back and forth between Karen and Georgia in the early iteration of the show. And their personalities are just on full display. So without further ado, here's Who Put Bella in the Witch Elm. Okay, you're going to go first this week? Yeah, I'll go first this week. So we're ready for our favorite murder. Are you ready? All right, so this week we're doing,

I picked a topic and then I hated it. So I said, Karen, what's your dream topic? Do you remember what the topic was before? It was Vintage Unsolved. Oh, right. Then I got really angry and was like, I can't do this. Yeah. And I said, Karen, have you picked yours yet? And you said, no. And I said, what's your dream topic? And then I just didn't answer you because I was like, MYOB. Mind your own business. No. No, not at all. You said, you said weird murders. Yes. Which like basically is we've done so many already. I mean, we've also done like kids killing kids. We've done so many things that like we're the category idea. Yeah. We're just trying to organize our thoughts. So it's trying to help us like go down a path that's not an infinite path.

Yes. Okay. So but also like what murder isn't weird. Ultimately, it's kind of an aberration just in it. But you know, well, I thought there was a couple that I wanted to do. And I also don't want to do one that everyone like there's something about the, maybe it's just the podcast, the Facebook group that like everyone in that fucking group knows every murder. Yes. Like they know everything, which is like so fun, but I don't want to disappoint them. Yes. Same. You know what I mean? So, so I picked one. I was going to do the Tom and Shude case. Yes. You know what I mean? Where it's an unsolved case of an unidentified man found dead in 1948 in Australia and in his pot, he watched up on the beach and in his pocket was a piece of paper with the phrase

Tom and Shude, which means meaning ended or finished in Persian, printed on a little scrap of paper. And they don't know who he is or where he came from, what his deal is. It's fucking, it's a fascinating case. If you don't know it, which you probably, everyone probably knows it. And it's still unsolved, right? Yeah. Okay. And so is this one, the one that I picked as my favorite word murder called who put Bella in the witch Elm? Is that yours? No, no, no. But I just listened to, I just listened to a different podcast about this. It's great. It's also called the Hagley Woods mystery sometimes. This is a good one. So in April, 1943, which is obviously in the middle of World War Two, four boys from Stourbridge in the UK were poaching when they came

Can you say that one more time? Stourbridge, UK. They were poaching. They came across a large witch Elm. It's spelled W-I-T-C-H or W-I-C-H in different, different postings. I can't really tell. I think it's W-I-T-C-H. And the, they found a witch Elm on an estate belonging to a lord. They thought it was a good place to hunt birds nest. And so they tried to climb into the tree to investigate and they found a skull and they thought it was an animal. And then they saw human teeth and hair attached to this. And they had found a human skull. So they, they went, they were like, here's a great idea. Let's not tell anyone because we'll get in trouble for being on the Lord's land. Like you guys, if you ever find something, say something or you look fucking suspicious. Your

parents won't be mad at you for being on someone's land if you find a skull. Everyone knows lords are dicks. Look, we've all dealt with asshole lords before. We've all trespassed on land that belongs to lords. And if you find a body, you should tell someone. So the youngest kid, that was like, of course it's the youngest kid. He's like, I'm just gonna get hair over mommy. Mommy. Mommy. And he told his parents and the police checked the trunk of the tree. They found an almost complete human skeleton, a shoe, a gold wedding ring, and some fragments of clothing. And then on further investigation, a severed hand was found buried in the ground near the tree. The body was examined by Professor James Webster. And he established that the skeleton

was a female who had been done for at least 18 months. And at the time of death, must have been around October 1941, he discovered this is the best a section of taffeta lodged in her mouth, suggesting she had died from exphyxiation. And I wrote or from fashion. My notes. She did. She died from the 80s. Oh, Georgia. Oh, Georgia. Go for it. Go do it. Do it. The measurement of the trunk, which the body was placed in, made him think that she must have been placed there, still warm after the killing as she could not have fit in once rigor mortis had taken hold. Rigor mortis is I am fascinated by it. It's just, oh my God. Because it sets in, but then it goes away, right? I think it goes away after like 10 days. But you can, I feel like you can also break

it. Oh, with enough force. Listen, everyone put on the Facebook group whether or not this is true or not. What do you know about rigor mortis? Clearly someone knows something. That's a good podcast too, by the way. So it's our offshoot podcast. Someone knows something about rigor mortis. Okay. So the woman's murder was in the midst of World War Two in the UK, which clearly had a lot of action going on. So it hampered the investigation. Police could tell from the items found what the woman looked like. So many people reported missing during the war. They really couldn't tell, like find out who it was. They did a nationwide search of dental practices, which came up with nothing, which I feel like in 1941, the nationwide search of

dental practices was not very thorough. Yeah, you're like calling up on one of those like crank wall phones. Yeah, of like, you know, yeah, hey, age three, nine, four, seven, eight. Have you seen a cap on the insides or three? We don't do those here. Yeah. Bye. And it's also a barber shop. I love art. I love our dental. Hey, we are. They're British people that talk like they're from the Bronx from the movie from the Bronx. This is good radio. But again, all the just the facts here, you guys, that's all you got. The facts and only the facts. This is a real boring podcast. So people eventually kind of forgot about the woman in the tree until the graffiti started. Yeah, ominous fucking line. This is the beginning of Banksy. So someone wrote who put Lula Bell down

the witch Elm in graffiti. And then someone wrote the Hagley Wood Bella. Then someone wrote who put Bella in the witch Elm. And the graffiti appeared on walls throughout the West Midlands, which is near where it happened, seemingly by the same hand, which is a fucking, I love handwriting analysis so much. Me too. It was last painted on the graffiti was last painted onto the side of a 200 year old obelisk, which is like spooky as fuck. Yeah. On the 18th of August, 1999, in white paint, that's some that's some. What was the that's some toy and be tile shit. Yeah, that's right. It just continues on. What the fuck. So let's see. Okay. A couple theories that the hand buried close by could have been a hand of glory, which I actually talked about

recently on Summer Party. It's a dried and pickled hand of a man who has been hanged, often specified as being the left hand. Or if the man was hanged for murder, the hand that did the deed. And they at Old European beliefs, attributed the great powers to the hand of glory combined with a can they made it the fuck basically they made a fucking hand of someone who was hanged into a candle. And so when people would break into someone's house, they would bring it with them for good luck. Oh, that's pretty much what it was. So it was a cultist type of thing, which is like, well, there's a hand buried nearby. What does that mean? I feel like the glory part is a bit of a misnomer. It's horrifying. It's a it's a disembodied hand. The hand of story. Trying to do it. Like

they put the wicks on the tip of the fingers. Like if someone broke in my house with that, I would run. So of course, you would get away with it. Take all of my jewels. Bye. I'd be like, bye. Okay, bye. You got me later days. So so I read this part from this is all from like Wikipedia and random like websites. This is from the unredacted. It wasn't until 1953 when journalist Wilford Jones started to write about the old case. That interest was revived. And he would soon receive the first solid lead in nearly a decade. This is in 1953. There was a letter signed only Anna offered new details of what had happened to Bella. According to the letter Bella, I love this, had been murdered because of her involvement with a Nazi spy ring operating in the Midlands in the

early 1940s. Yes, hundreds of German spies were captured in Britain during the war. And in the Midlands would have been a valuable source of intelligence because of its prevalence of munitions factories. Wow, really fucking cool. So the journalists never think of England is having spies like that. It's like, yeah, because it's an island over by itself. Yeah. How did they get there? Well, this is what was very no, no, no, I didn't write this down. But this is one of the theories is that she parachuted in and somehow ended up in the trunk of the tree, which I call bullshit on that theory. Maybe someone maybe she parachuted in and they found her and killed her and put her in the tree. The idea that you would parachute in to be a spy, and you would parachute down into

into the forest, the trunk of a tree. Yes, you're the dumbest unluckiest by who's the worst at parachuting. Listen, she's in a plane. She grabs, she gets scared. So she grabs a handful of her taffeta stuffs it in her mouth, she doesn't scream too loud on her way down, hits her arm, her hand comes off. The force buries it in the in the ground. This is all absolutely feasible. It's doable. It's doable. Wait a second. What material taffeta is like prom dresses taffeta isn't parachutes, right? No, taffeta, I feel like it's an underskirt material. Okay. Or maybe it's a lacy collar. Okay. Like a high like Victorian lacy collar. It's not like Nihiline. We're not talking. It's a different thing. Yeah, that would be cool. But I had a theory. But you know, at the same time, though,

these stories are passed down so long that it someone could have said it's taffeta. And that's stuck. True. Which is the problem with these old crimes is like, they just get told so many times that these things become facts. So I'm going to say that she had parachute nylon stuffed in her mouth. Let's change the story to work for us. We're flipping the script. Okay, so then the journalist got a letter from this woman, Anna claiming Bella had died after getting involved in a World War II Nazi spying. And she said, finish your articles on the witch Elm crime by all means. They're interesting to your readers, but you will never solve the mystery. The one person who could give the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of the earthly courts. That's a

great way to say someone's dead. We're now called my favorite beyond the jurisdiction of the earthly courts. God, earthly courts. I know the affairs closed and involved no witches, black magic, or moonlit rights. Basically, this which is like, I know what fucking happened. Shit. So you think that which did you say witch or bitch? That bitch knows what no, no witches, black magic or moonlight rights. Like she's saying it wasn't witchcraft. Oh, because it is in the forest. I know, creepy. Yeah. And she's found in a fucking trunk of a tree. Like that's that's some some what was the show recently with America? No, Woody Harrelson. Oh, true detective. That's some true detective shit right there. Season one, baby. Season one, fuck season two. Season two is slop. Although

we did see Colin Farrell at the movie theater the other day. I almost told him your performance in true detective season two was masterful. The only saving grace of that that season. And my girl Rachel McAdams. I do love her. No. She just pours me. She just talks like this all the time and she pours me. I know, but she has perfect like she always has a good Bob. Yeah. She's a great Bob. She has a nice tall forehead. I'm jealous of her face. I love a tall forehead. I really do because mine is like a three head. It is the shortest. All my bangs are an atrocity. Nothing works. Nothing works. You should shave the front part of your your forehead. Like an Edwardian. Yeah. Just get it waxed and it'll look like. I know. Oh my god. I want a barf. Like how

bar how you used to cut your Barbie's hair off in the front for me. And then here's bang. It's still growing. You know, I used to do baby bangs like in the early 90s when I was a big drunk. Like little foofies. I can't tell you how my face looked like a straight up full moon. I look like the blood moon walking around working at the gap. You talk about your photos from when you were younger so much and I've never seen them. I'm dying to see them. I've scrubbed the internet of them. Please don't scrub my brain of them. Okay. Sorry. No, this is the best part. After subsequent correspondence, Anna revealed herself to be a woman named Una Massep and told the full story. She said her husband, Jack, worked on a local munitions factory again,

the munitions factory in the early 1940s and come into some money after meeting a mysterious Dutchman. He later admitted to Una that the Dutchman was a Nazi agent and Jack had been passing him information about the local industrial sites. Listen, you asshole. Yeah, this is why we fucking lost the word. No, I mean, actually, I'm totally kidding. Let's see. So which in turn was passed to another agent posing as a cabaret performer at local theaters. The Midlands had been bombarded by the Luftwaffe in the early 40s and such information would have been invaluable to the Nazis to target their raids when they would have done the most damage to Britain's war effort. One day, Jack met his contact at a pub close to Hagleywood. He was arguing with a Dutch

woman. This Dutchman was arguing with a Dutch one. He ordered Jack to drive them both out to the Clint Hills, but the argument had grown extremely violent and the Dutch agent strangled the woman in the car. Fearing for his own life, Jack helped carry the body into the nearby Hagleywoods where the pair buried it in the hollow of an old tree elm. That sounds reasonable. Yeah, that sounds insane, but like a reasonable explanation. Also, I'm sorry to say, but it's kind of a good idea to bury a body inside of a tree. Totally. It's like now how they're doing, they're doing burials when you can be like, I want to be a pod and you can get buried in the woods now. Oh, right. But it's against your will. But it's only the only difference. Listen, stick with me.

It's an eco burial, but you don't have a choice in the matter. This totally makes sense to me. And I was going to say something else and I forgot. Oh, I feel like there's so many murders that are solved because an ex-girlfriend, a jilted ex-lover, ex-girlfriend is like, hey, FYI, here's what happened. Totally. I didn't say because I was scared from it, which I totally believe. You eventually tell. Yeah, I mean, because that guy had a lot to lose. If he was like passing info. Oh, treason. If she said anything. Yeah. He probably told her, I'll kill you if you, I mean, like, yeah. She thought he would die. She didn't want him to die either. She loved him. Yeah. And then he slept with her sister and she was like, listen, fuck this

dude. Is that the reason why she said. No, I'm totally guessing this. No, no, no. Okay. So, Una's husband was apparently so traumatized by the brutal murder, murder, murder of Bella that he had a nervous breakdown tormented by horrific visions of a woman's skull in a tree. And he was institutionalized in 1941 and apparently died later that year. So that sounds totally plausible and feasible. And it sounds like it happened immediately. Like it, he went through the trauma and then just freaked out. It turns out nobody knew this, but Nazis are assholes. Oh, yeah. They should have mentioned that in the 40s. So that America could have got involved in that war or get. I said it. You heard me and I said it. It's like everyone from there. That air is dead.

And I don't care that you said it. It's true. There's like one 90 year old veteran that's like, how dare you. I came here to listen to a motor pod guest. Not a rant against the Luftwaffe. Yeah. So that sounds, I like that theory. Again, I like it and it fits very well and it could have changed a lot. And who knows if it's true, but it's a good one. Yeah. So yeah, you guys want to, there's, you can actually, there's actually a good photo of the skull. If you go online, it's called the, so this is the who put Bella in the witch Elm or the Hagley was mystery. You can see some cool photos from back then. Every time I watch like British TV, I want to go there because it's such a rich and storied past, but stuff like that, like you don't even think about it.

Aside from the fact that they got the shit bombed out of them during World War two, and it was like total chaos and insanity every day. Can you imagine these like, these proper British people got the shit bombed out of them. And they didn't react like that. What I love is that it's so British to that whole keep calm, carry on where it was just like, nobody was allowed to be like, can you believe this shit or freak out or anything? They're all like, all right, are you ready for tea? Well, even the, even the army, the British army was like, there are these, here are these rules that we have to follow. And I think that's why we had to step in is that we're like, there, there are these rules of war, but these Nazis are not following them.

No. And you think that the combat is this like old tradition. It's not anymore. But you know, these proper British people, God bless them. I know. And just, just the fucking amount of civilians that were just game is awful. It's crazy. It's on both sides. World, I mean, yeah. World War II, I will fall into any World War II black hole, the whole thing. Anytime it's a people going back, what I really like is when people go back and try to talk to German people, citizens today, my Lord, from that era and how defensive and freaked out they get. Yeah. What a, what an incredible scar on the history of German people and how terrible they feel and how it would, it's just a strange thing. Well, if you ask them, it's not, it wasn't their fault. They weren't,

you know, they weren't part of it. They weren't supporting it. I mean, I totally understand why someone like Adolf Hitler would have looked so appealing in the beginning. Yep. And that was a country that was like on its knees for years and years and years. But because we, we made them do that after World War I, we spanked them. Yeah. Not that they didn't deserve it. But it's just that thing of like, keep an eye out for somebody lit that likes a scapegoat. It's usually scapegoats are usually a minority person. Yeah. Can't speak up for themselves. I'm going to say it, what you are not saying. Donald Trump. Let's not get into it. That motherfucker. Yeah. Oh, no, we just lost thousands and thousands of listeners. Good. If you, oh, those, I don't want them,

those are the people who come after us. Those are not our 2000 Facebook group followers. Please, are you kidding me? That'd be unbelievable. So I just love that one's weird to me because I just love that she was found in a tree and it's just so fascinating to me. It also feels like that's the kind that in a, you feel like in maybe five years, they'll have that solved somehow. I feel like it's one of those ones that, that it's solved in that there's some obvious explanation, that one, that one I just read, but it's too late. It'll never be. And then isn't it weird when you hear about vintage murders and you're like, he's 67 now and he got arrested and you're like, oh my God, I thought he'd be dead. Yes. He's 67 or whatever. But that guy, I mean, it's such a,

that's a tough arrow pointing straight to the guy that immediately has a nervous breakdown and basically dies. I mean, I kind of feel badly for that guy because yeah, what is it going to be? Like no Nazi who just killed your like counterpart. Yeah. I'm not going to help you. Of course he is. Of course he is. And now he's stuck. Like, he can't tell anyone because he's being treasonous. He's treasonous. Bitch. Guys, do not sell your government secrets. Looking for a better cooking routine with meal planning, shopping and prepping handled. Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal and

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with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hi. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast, Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton serial killer. I'll also bring

on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music exclusive podcast Killer Psyche Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. Whoa, what a great story. So my pick for Karen is from episode 45 and it is The Tale of Lord Lucan. I think I picked both of these because I really enjoy the mystery elements to them, but this one in particular has so many incredible details and to hear Karen tell it is just as you just get sucked into the narrative of what could possibly have happened, even though we all kind

of know what happened. But I think it's just a really important, an important example of what white guys can get away with, I think. So here we have from episode 45 the story of Lord Lucan. So I have, because of watching the killing season and how heavy it is and how it feels like everyone in the world is a serial killer by the time you're halfway through with it, which in some ways is a fun feeling. It's fun isn't it? I like it. And yet you're still alive. We made it everybody. So I switched over as a palette cleanser. I started watching The Crown, which is a wonderful Netflix series. British procedural. It sounds British. Is it British? It's the story of Queen Elizabeth. I figured, God, I'm so smart. The newest one. Yeah, so in a way it is kind of a British procedural.

Wait, it's the newest show about the about about like how she got became the queen and what her life was like privately. She's a total badass. There's parts in it. I want The Crown TV show to come out with their own book on how to be politely assertive, because that's her. And also I want them to come out with the color of lipstick that she's wearing, because it's this perfect shade of pinkish red that would actually look good. I can't wear red because my teeth are as yellow as little corn nibblets. You're very fair. I'm very fair with red in my skin. So red lipstick on me makes me look like I have been smoking crack in the alley. I look like a fucking, what do they call them? A rockabilly. And it's obnoxious. Yeah. Well, this is like this muted brownish pink

lipstick. I bet it's I bet they make it for her. And there's not even a thing you can fucking buy. You know, I bet they, well, we have a fucking lip gloss that was made for us too, that that girl sent us. That's right. Remember? So the queen, I'm sorry. It's not that fucking special. But I want the queens because it, because we've started doing coke before. Back to being 14. So, so I blended into this very British kind of fancy regal area. Yeah. Like controlled. Yes. And aristocratic, which is, I mean, like if, if I was in that time, I would be like truly the dishwasher in the bottom part of the basement. Like, do you need a candlestick? I wouldn't, but with an Irish accent,

which for some reason I can't do right now. So I decided that my murder is going to be that of the infamous, infamous story of Lord Lucan. Have you ever heard of him? I don't think so. Okay. This one's pretty good because it involves British aristocracy and a disappearance. You know, I love disappearances. All right. So, and also I was going to do this story after, remember when we did Harmon Town and then we met that British couple outside on the street and they were on their honeymoon. They were so sweet. They were so sweet and they were just getting tattoos and they were having like this amazing honeymoon and they'd come to see us. And they didn't even ask for a photo, which is like, you know, Americans do that.

Yeah. They didn't want a photo. They kind of want us to go away a little bit, but they were like, hi, we came to see you. We came from England to see you, which meant the world to me. We didn't get their names, but hi, shout out if you're still listening. Sweet angels. Pip, pip. That wasn't a fucking panda to the audience when I said sweet baby angels. No, that was natural. It felt very natural. So, I was thinking of doing Lord Luke and after we met them of like, hey, this is shout out to you, but that was what six months ago or something. So, I brought this Word document back out and began to fill it out again. So, here's the story of this guy. It was born John Bingham and he was born on December 18th,

1934 to an aristocratic family in Marleybone, which is the funniest name for, it's a neighborhood, I guess, in London. Oh, you're going to get, I don't care what you say next, you're going to get a correction about like what it is. It's not a neighborhood, it's a fucking, it's fucking in New York. Yeah, this whole, I'm, I once again, I'm flying in the face of logic and just trying to be British once again. Aim for the fucking nose. Aim for the stars. Aim for that butt nose. So, this, so John Bingham, during World War II, when he was a boy, he was evacuated out of London, out of Marleybone. They're going to be like, it's pronounced Milly Bean. Yeah, totally. He was evacuated to Wales and then to Canada and he got to live with

his rich, like friends of family, relatives, yeah, who are like crazy rich. But then when he came back to England when the war was over, he was sent to Eaton College. Now, I was thinking about this in my head, but I didn't look, look it up. I think over there, Eaton is like a boarding school that's like grammar in high school. It's not necessarily a college, like we think of college. They have like finishing school, right? Where like you pass your, again, where you put a book on your head. Save it if you want to fuck in email, text us that were, tweet us that were wrong. It's like, someone named England, tell us what Eaton College is. No, no, I don't care. No, I do care. No, I don't care. But I think it's like a finishing school. No, I'm going to keep saying that

till you agree with me. This time you said it like you'd been thinking about it and now you've decided it's a finishing school. I think it's like high school and perhaps like a boarding school. Yeah, okay. Exactly. Anyhow, finally, we agree. So when he was there, he supplemented his pocket money with, he was a bookie. Oh, that's cool, right? Yeah, I think it's very cool. Me too. He had a secret bank account. Oh my God. And he made money. As a kid? As a kid. My grandfather was a bookie. For real? Yeah. Barber. Barber shopfront. Barber quote, quote, unquote. Nice. Anyway, sorry. So this kid, he would leave the school grounds, go to horse races, take bets, and he was like the school bookie. That's so cool. Love it. Well, the bad part,

the uncool part is that he turned out to be a terrible compulsive gambler. Oh, wait. Later on. Take that back. But when he's a kid, that's cute. Yeah. So he got the nickname Lucky Logan. After winning 26,000 pounds at the card game, Chemin de Feur, in Le Tour, Le Touquet. None of that's real. None of it is meaningful to me in any way. But he won, he won a game, a bunch of pounds. And so that's what made him think, I'm, I'm lucky and I should be doing this all the time. So, so when he got out of school, he was in the army for a little bit, and then he started a job as a merchant banker. But he had a very expensive tastes, because he was still an aristocrat. His parents were very,

very, what do you call that? I was going to say staunch, but that's from Grey Gardens. It's, um, they were, they didn't spend a lot of money. They were like religious and, when you try to, I'm like making a gesture on my chest. Yeah, like frugal. Frugal. Frugal. There we go. This gesture worked for me. How long did that fucking take? If this podcast is two hours long, it's because we're trying to remember words that neither of us could enjoy this. I don't know. It's madness. Even Steven is like, can you get your fucking shit together? Okay. So he had a very expensive taste because he was still an aristocrat at the end of the day, and he was raised, you know, by rich people in North America. Um, so he,

his, he had taste for the best Russian vodka. He liked to race power boats. Um, and then in from this lift of at, in Wikipedia, donate to Wikipedia, by the way, if only just three dollars. Oh, can you donate to Wikipedia? Yeah, yeah. Is that a thing that they're? Yeah, they're, they're actually having like, they're kind of like public television right now. Oh, I didn't know that. And they're trying to get people to, to give them money, um, because they just, they need to stick around. I have so many questions. I mean, I love Wikipedia, but I won't ask them right now. If you click on there right now, the thing will come up to say, please give us three dollars. Okay. And then we'll do it. That's, yeah. I mean, it seems fair for all the shit they give me. Oh

my God. The hours I spent when I had the desk job looking at unsolved murders and serial killers and, uh, love it. So anyway, this guy basically, he's living the life. He likes the best of all things. I was just going to say at the end of this sentence here, they were like, he had the best tastes. He loved the best, um, you know, he raised boats. He, he loved Russian vodka and smart cars, which I think in, in England probably means smart, like cool cars, but here means tiny toy looking cars that are the stupidest looking cars you could drive. I just time travel too, because those didn't exist. Right. Like how cool would that be if you were just like, they're like, he invented the smart car. Yeah. All right. Anyway. Um, he was also very charismatic.

He was six foot two with a quote from Wikipedia, a luxuriant mustache, Steven's. Um, and he was once considered to play the role of James Bond. Oh shit. So he's that, he used to see a picture of him on Wikipedia. He's pretty cute. He's very British aristocratic looking kind of like, pointy nose. I won't, it's a high class. You know what I mean? It's a British thing. Pointy nose and kind of like, he looks like he'd be like, very good. Hey man, my husband, my husband is the spitting image of Prince William. So that's great. Am I going to, that's exactly right. Clearly I'm into British shoes. Yeah. No complaints. Um, also at one point he was ranked among the top 10, the world's top 10 backgammon players. So there you have it. Kind of cool. Bad ass. Yeah. Talk

about sex. I mean, I don't know what backgammon is exactly, but I bet it's hard. It's, you know what it is? It's like chess for drunk people is what it is. All right. It still sounds like, I don't think like, like chess for drunk people to me is like bingo. Connect four is chess. That's right. For drunk people. Yeah. Bingo. Um, okay. So he meets his wife, Veronica Duncan at a golf club function and they get married on November 20th, 1963. And, uh, when they get married, so Lord Lukens finances when he was a young man and he was gambling so much, it got a little iffy in there because he was just like going for it. And like, I'm, I'm in a boat race. I have to have an Aston Martin, you know, he was like living the life and spending all that money. So when he marries Veronica

Duncan, um, his father gives him what was called the marriage settlement. So he gets a big chunk of money to buy a house to prepare for having kids like this whole, so he's basically kind of like up in, up in the, in the black and sexist. Got it. Um, two months after he gets married, I called him old man, looking, uh, old man, looking dies of a stroke. And so John Bingham, uh, inherits 250,000 pounds and his father's titles, which are Earl of Lucan, Baron Lucan of Castle Bar, Baron Lucan of Melcombe, Lucan and Baronette Bingham of Castle Bar. What any of this means? It's meaningless. So cute. The mean emails. It's not meaningless. It's super meaningless. Don't shoot foxes, right? Everybody. Uh, okay. So the problem is that he has a very serious gambling

problem. So at first it was hot and cute and he's James Bond. And after a while it's like put the fucking backgammon down. What are you doing? Um, and he's spending, still spending money like an aristocrat. So he's like, you know, he's, he's got a, uh, open account at Savile Row, Taylor's, you know what I mean? People are making to those clothes, clothing for him. Yeah. Look at you, Karen. I know. I want to be rich really bad. Do you? Really bad. Really? Not just rich though. I want to be, I want to be like Lord Lucan. I want to be an aristocrat. What would you do? What would you like? I guess I would just drink and smoke cigarettes all day. Cause you can, you can just do it at that point because. Yeah, you can, you can kind of, yeah, you can just

kind of, well, it's the same thing you can do if you were basically a bum. Remember that intervention where the woman had like inherited so much money that she was like, why should I not be an alcoholic? And then she, they were going to take her to a rehab that was like a 14 hour, like a five hour flight, but she insisted on getting a limo because she wanted to bring her cats with her. So she put her cats in the limo. Oh my God, it was the best. Holy shit. She took a cat road trip? Yeah, she like put cat boxes in limo. Like she's me if I just had a shit head. And like no one could say anything to her because like she wasn't going to lose anything. Cause she was, did it work? Did she get sober? I don't know if there's, maybe there's, hopefully there's a follow up.

I don't know. Oh man. It's been, I haven't, I stopped watching that because it's real depressing. It turns out she ate all those cats. She got really drunk and then she got hungry and she ate those cats. Oh, it's poor baby. I mean, sorry, fucking right field. Loving it. Left field. There's, there's downside to being an addict. I think we all know this. We've tried to tell you over and over. Yeah. Okay. So, um, so he and his wife have three kids, George and Camilla, and a third one that for some reason is not on this list. And some of, you know, the youngest kid never matters. Am I wrong? Yeah. Seriously. I'm living that life. That's why we're murder podcast. Yeah. That's, that's why we're doing what we do. So Veronica is struggling because she also

has three kids in this very short amount of time, of course. So she's struggling with post-natal depression. Honey. Um, and Lord Lucan takes her for treatment at a psychiatric clinic. She refused to be admitted, but she did agree to home visits from a psychiatrist and taking a course of antidepressants. So she's trying to take care of it, but she won't like, you know, really go take a full break or whatever she's like, I can handle this. Well, then that combined with the pressures of maintaining their finances and his, I mean, he, I read this thing, I didn't include it, but there was a thing of like how he would spend his days. Oh my God. It's so hilarious. Cause he would like get up and eat breakfast and then go to his gaming club and just gamble all afternoon. Yeah. And you know

he was probably drinking too. Of course. And then he would come home and get dressed and then put on like his tuxedo to throw out cigarettes probably. Oh yeah. And you can't wash that off after a while. And then he just went out to drink and eat and smoke and gamble more. That was just, that's all he did all the time. I would have, that's not post-natal depression. That's fucking depression that she had. Cause she was like, what the fuck? This is not what I fucking am. So, went to finishing school for. So basically in the two weeks after a very strained family Christmas in 1972, Lord Luke and moved out. And then they get into this bitter custody battle and the Justice Awards custody to Veronica. Divorce like didn't happen back then.

Yeah. Wasn't good. And I'm sure for aristocrats. And you could push him off the couch. Elvis is ripping up Karen's notes. Sorry. My precious writing. Okay. So she is awarded custody of the three kids and that's all he wanted. And so. Why would he want just to fuck with her, right? Well, no, no, no. He really, I'm sure really loved his children and it was very important to him. But also I think it was part of this thing that he didn't think she was a fit mother. Knowing that she had postnatal depression. I think he was partly worried and then also partly he was an addict and needed to control things. Maybe I don't know. There's something going on. He gets awarded like every other weekend visit and he gets really obsessive

about it. So he starts spying on her to prove she's an unfit mother. He's recording their phone conversations. He becomes fixated on her and what's happening. He also is his drinking gets really bad and his gambling. He goes crazy with the gambling and all of his friends are like he's in a downward spiral. And then all of a sudden the week of November 7th in 1974, he seems to like suddenly be pull it together. And there's a couple first hand stories of people who like had dinner with him and he they tried to talk to him about what's going on with the kids and he changes the topic to politics. And so they're like, Oh, maybe he's rounded the corner, maybe he's out of a system. So on the evening of November 7th, 1974, he had a bunch of plans

with people that he didn't. He just didn't show up. And that night, the children's nanny, Sandra Rivet, puts the younger children to bed. And at about 855, she asks Veronica if she'd like a cup of tea. And so she heads downstairs to the basement kitchen. So there that's a fucking sweet ass mansion. Yeah, I'll go down to the to the maids kitchen. I'm not going to use your nice high class kitchen to make tea. So she goes downstairs to the basement kitchen to make Veronica some tea. And as she enters the room, she is bludgeoned to death with a lead pipe, a piece of bandaged lead pipe. And her killer places her body in a canvas male sack. So meanwhile upstairs, Lady Lucan wonders what's delaying the nanny. So she walks down the first floor stairs to

see what's happened. And she calls from from the top part of the stairs, she calls down to Rivet. And to see what's going on. And the guy comes up and attacks her with the lead pipe as well. Oh my god. And she starts screaming for her life. The attacker tells her to shut up. And that's when Lady Lucan knows she tells the cops later that she knows it's her husband. So she survives. This guy's got like a mask on or something. I think the lights were out. Like it was dark. So she's kind of calling down. She doesn't know what's going on. And then this guy comes up. And she thinks she's just getting attacked. And then she realizes it's her husband, according to her. So they get into this fight. She bites his fingers.

He throws her face down in the carpet and she man she manages to turn around and squeeze his testicles. Good girl. Releasing Steven. Steven just really felt that. Yeah. And causing him to release his grip on her throat and give up the fight. She asks where Rivet is and Lucan was at first evasive then eventually admits that he just killed her. So what they believe is that he thinks he thought it was Veronica walking into the basement kitchen. He was trying to kill his wife and he accidentally killed the nanny. So this is according to Lady Lucan. So Lady Lucan is terrified. She tells him she'll help him escape if he would just well she's trying to get. Okay. So she says I'll help you escape. You just have to stay here for a couple of days and hide

out and allow my injuries to heal because she's been hit with the lead pipe and everything. Oh my gosh. So Lucan she walks upstairs. Oh, I'm sorry. Lord Lucan that the oldest daughter wakes up. So he goes to put her to bed and she and then the wife Veronica goes into the bedroom lays down. She's bleeding and he puts down towels for her and it's like don't get don't get the bedding stained with blood. Weird. So he asks her, does she have any barbiturates? He goes into the bathroom to get a towel and supposedly clean her face. And that's when Lady Lucan realizes that he won't be able to hear her if he's in the bathroom. Yeah. And so she runs out of the house with her kids still there though. Yeah. But but she I think she knew that he didn't want that it

was about her and the attack was about her. Right. Because she also did report earlier that he had once hit her with a cane and once tried to push her down the stairs. So there he had gotten physical with her before. But he I think she trusted that he wasn't going to harm their children. Yeah. I mean it's crazy. That's what it seemed like. So she runs out of the house and she runs to a nearby public house called the plumber's arms. Oh, let's go and drink there. We have to go to a pub called the plumber's arms. Yeah. So what like big hairy arm with a tattoo. What kind of bulldog tattoo is that? Yeah, a bulldog would be good. Yeah. Or an anchor of course. Of course, an anchor or maybe just a just a Queen Elizabeth's face. I mean, she's a badass. Everybody loves her.

Everyone loves. Okay. Okay. So the police, she they call the police, the police go to the house. But meanwhile, Lord Lucanus called his own mother and tells her of a terrible catastrophe that's happened at his wife's home. He tells his mother, you have to come here and get the children. Then he drives a borrowed car to his friend's house in Uckfield East Sussex. And then hours later, he leaves that property, leaves the car there and he's never seen again and has never seen since. No. Swear to God. No. So that car was found. He's the one missing? Yes. He's the one missing. He disappeared. He disappeared. So no, this is I was not expecting that. Yeah. James Bond is out and about. Dude. He the car was found abandoned in New Haven.

And the interior was stained with blood. And the trunk had a piece boot for those of our friends in England, had a piece of bandage lead pipe similar to the one found at the crime scene. So there's one that that a nanny was killed with that was left at the crime scene. And there's another one that's in this borrowed car. And we don't know what why was all the blood in the car? And we don't know what that led. He was covered in blood. Okay. And I don't know if there were two. There's no explanations. Just I'm not sure. Holy shit. So but then also he left a letter to the owner of the car that said, my dear Michael. So he basically borrows this car from this guy. He's like, Hey, can I borrow your car for a while and then just gets blood all in it,

abandons it and he says, my dear Michael, I have had a traumatic night of unbelievable coincidence. However, I won't bore you with anything or involve you except to say that when you come across my children, which I hope you will, please tell them that you knew me and that I all I cared about was them. The fact that a crooked solicitor and a rotten psychiatrist destroyed me between them will be of no importance to the children. I gave Bill Shand kid, which is his brother-in-law, I gave Bill Shand kid an account of what actually happened. But judging by my last effort in court, no one yet alone a 67 year old judge would believe and I no longer care except that my children should be protected yours ever John. So he's basically saying whatever

happened at the house was some weird coincidence that he happened upon his excuses that and I think there was a it was in a different letter that he walked into the house and his wife was being attacked by an intruder, which the wife is like, no, I'll tell you exactly how it happened like step by step. Yeah. And then also you can trace it all back to the car and the blood and everything else. Point the fucking way. So they put out a warrant for his arrest a couple days later and in his absence, the inquest into Rivett's death named him as her murderer, which was the last time ever that Britain's coroner's court was ever allowed to do that. So they were basically like, this guy did it. Oh, without a trial. Yeah. So a thorough search of New Haven Downs was judged impossible. I don't

know if that's what's New Haven Downs. What's a thorough search? What's anything in this fucking world? I pictured New Haven Downs to be just full of a bunch of brambles. Charming as fuck. It's like the Moors, but brambly brambles everywhere brambles and scones or scones scones. A partial search was made using tracker dogs, although all that was found were the skeletal remains of a judge who had disappeared years earlier. I'm sorry. What? Yes. Yes. So they when they do search New Haven Downs, this impossible to search area, they unrelated, unrelated. They find skeletal remains of a judge. All right. Maybe maybe how about once a year you search New Haven Downs, get some fucking puppies out there. Yet they love doing it. Give them a run

around. It's fun for them. Find a judge. Police diverged, searched the harbor. So basically, they went everywhere and tried to find this guy. This guy's more important than a fucking judge. That's right. Clearly. He's a way bigger deal. Yeah. He is among the top 10 backgammon players in the world. You have to find him. Must find him. They don't find. So basically, they can't find anything. They used infrared photography. I don't see where. They use smart cars. Smart phones. So warrant for Lucan's arrest to answer charges of murdering Sandra Rivet and attempting to murder his wife was issued on Tuesday, November 12, 1974. In descriptions of his parent appearance were issued to Interpol. So it could be international. And of course,

all across the UK. So apparently, since that time, been a great British pastime to theorize where Lord Lucan is. And people love saying they saw him. So the reports have been coming in pretty consistently year after year saying I saw Lord Lucan here or there. And so some of the places they've reported him seeing him was as a hippie dropout in Goa, which I don't know. I don't know where that is. Doubt. Where he was known, they said he was known there as Jungle Berry. As you do. The best nickname of all time. Is it? They said he was about backpacking on Mount Etna. Yeah. Someone said they saw him working on a sheep station in the Australian Outback. Yeah. Those all sound like things people who run away from life would do.

Yeah. To get as far away as possible. Yeah. Like trying to not have an identity anymore. Right. Which would make sense. Yeah. But John Aspinall, who is the owner of the Claremont Gaming Club, which is the place he used to go like around lunchtime every single day, said, told the news, I find it difficult to imagine him in Brazil or Haiti as a fugitive. I don't think he has the capacity to adapt. Which is kind of rough. There was also a rumor, Aspinall owned a private zoo. And so there was a rumor that he was cut up and fed to the tigers at that zoo. And he, Aspinall, when told that rumor responded, my tigers are only fed the choices cuts. Do you really think they're going to eat stringy old Lucky? Oh my God.

The most plausible theory is that he drowned himself in the channel. That's what most people think. But here's, this is just an interesting, another coincidental thing. 13 years later, so when they had that nanny, the Sandra Rivet was their nanny, but they had had a nanny right before her. And her name was Krista Bell. I can't find her last name. Bell. Krista Bell Bell. And you don't see it. But her name was Krista Bell something or other. And turns out she was married to an economist named Nicholas Boyce. And on October 10, 1985, Nicholas Boyce was sent to prison for dismembering his wife and dumping her pieces of her body around London. So it was her. The, the nanny one before this. Oh, she got caught up. Also was murdered by her

husband, husband. So fancy husbands are just fucking running them up. Which I thought was, oh, and also they convicted him of manslaughter, but not murder. And he was sentenced to six years in jail. Oh, that's no big deal. No big, just, just kill her and throw her arms and legs around the city. And then yes. So, um, that's the story. Oh, sorry. It was Krista Bell 32 was a former governess of the Children of Lord Lucan who vanished without a trace after another nanny was battered to death at his home. Do you think he did it? What killed Lucan? The second nanny? The first nanny. Oh, hell yes. Wait, both nannies. No, no, no, no. The second one got killed by her husband. Oh, okay. Later. Okay. That was later on 13 years later. The second nanny gets killed in what is

a coincidence, but is super creepy because what the fuck is going on? I thought it was the fur. Okay. Yeah, no, but the first I'm sure the way everything adds up, it's just basically where did he go after? Did he immediately kill himself? Or did he actually go? He's DB Cooper. Yeah. Did he shave that, that luxuriant mustache off and go live somewhere for a while? You could go anywhere you want back then. And also with all his money. Oh, I'm charming. And you know, Ms. Dapper, he probably went to like Monte Carlo or something. That's what I was thinking to you. How old is he now? How old would he be? He's dead now that he was proclaimed to be dead. I don't know, but like how old would he be? Like in his, the article that I said where they, they proclaimed him dead.

I think he'd, they said he was like, would have been 81 or 82. That's livable, especially if you're living the fucking backgammon high life and fucking Monte Carlo. Backgammon doesn't that take that much out of you? No. Yeah. No. And if you're just pickled with gin, you can live for a really long time. I bet you he's still alive. I mean, it'd be pretty cool. We should make a rule that people have to confess stuff on their death, like on their deathbed. They have to confess things. Yeah. Like you're not. Yeah. That'd be nice. Wouldn't it? Just to solve a couple of mysteries. Yeah. Like, don't take shit to your grave. Yeah. You're being a selfish dick. So that's my good times. That was amazing. High class murder mystery from England. Never heard that one. Please let us know

all the mistakes from that one as soon as you can. Or don't, or go, go, uh, you know, every time you get mad at this podcast, go give $3 to Wikipedia. Yeah. We're gonna solve all of Wikipedia's problems and they're gonna be like, thank you. We got an influx of thousands and thousands of so much money. Oh, I love that story. Just privilege on full display. Thank you so much for listening. Again, you can find me as the co-host of I Saw What You Did podcast here on the Exactly Right Network with Millie DeChirico. I just wrote a book. It's called The Ugly Cry. It's out now. And don't forget to stay sexy and don't get murdered. Elvis, do you want a cookie?