My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 284 - MFM Guest Host Picks #7: Kara Klenk

Episode Date: July 22, 2021

This summer, Exactly Right family members will be guest hosting My Favorite Murder! Each week a guest host will pick their favorite stories from Karen and Georgia. Today's episode is hosted by Kara Klenk, co-host of That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast on Exactly Right. Kara covers the stories of Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka (Episode 91), Joseph Edward Duncan III (Episode 63), and a special hometown (Episode 16).See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook, and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello, hello, welcome to My Favorite Murder. I am your guest host, Cara Clank.

I am the co-host of That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast, also on the Exactly Right Network. And I'm really excited to be hosting today. I have known Karen and Georgia for a long time. Fun fact, I was at the Halloween party where Karen and Georgia met for the first time. A small apartment party here in beautiful Los Angeles, a Halloween party. Karen was dressed as a nurse. Georgia was dressed as Glenn Danzig. I was dressed as a three-blind mice, but my third blind mice, it was me and my husband,

and we had a third mouse who got social anxiety and didn't come. So we were two blind mice. But I remember them meeting there. That's where I met Karen. I had met Georgia before, and I believe that party's where I met Karen. And I just have been friends with them ever since, and I love them. And I'm so beyond thrilled to be on their network. Obviously, they have made a huge mark with My Favorite Murder.

It's one of the OG true crime podcasts. And I'm just so excited that we get to bring our little SVU slash true crime slash comedy podcast to their family. And yeah, let's get started. Okay, the first story that I've chosen to highlight in today's episode is from the brilliantly funny Karen Kilgariff, who I share initials with. And it is episode 91 live at the Sony Center in Toronto. And it is the story of Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamulca, a famous Canadian couple, also known

as the Ken and Barbie Killers, who, I mean, committed just heinous, heinous crimes. But we also covered this, I believe, in our second episode of That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast. And I just love, I picked both my, both the stories I picked for Karen and Georgia today are ones that we've also covered, because I just like hearing the way we cover them in different ways. And I love the way Karen tells it. And you're going to as well.

Here you go. So onto the murder. Oh, right. Oh, shit, girl. Yeah. Did you see it? I did. I'm going to.

Okay, so. This is a heavy. You're a sneaky pee. I can't help it if I have perfect vision and it you're a really good upside down reader. This is a heavy hitter. I'm sorry. No, no, go ahead. Heavy hitters episode, I think happy heavy hitter, but it's also it's also apology makeup

work for the city of Toronto and the country of Canada as a whole. We owe you guys. Guys, long, long ago in 1968, when we started this podcast. And I thought it was kind of like, I thought it was what we were talking about it to be when we first conceived of it, which was, Hey, you and me all sit in your living room and we'll just like talk about serial killers and murder and true crime and stuff that we're kind of fascinated by casually conversation and very quickly relearned that that is absolutely not the way you can talk about true crime, because you have to know years and cities

and facts and dates and the truth is really important. It's a big part of it. And I think it was around like the third episode, I thanks they knew they were ready to tell you because they're pissed. I did this one and I talked through it as if it happened to my neighbor. I was so young back then. The whole reason I wanted to do it is because I had one actually like one person away from one degree away story that I love to tell all the time.

And that's what I was building the whole concept around, but like I didn't do any research at all. I remember some girl emailing or tweeting, but she was just like, that was horrible. And then I was like, yeah, that was horrible. You're right. And then this whole time I've been saving it to come to Toronto to redo it. Because I felt bad. It was quite, it was quite an awakening to realize that I just signed up for a podcast

where I had to do a fucking book report every week against not my jam as you can well as you well know. But anyway, tonight I'm going to do the case of the schoolgirl killers, the Ken and Barbie killers, Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamalca. For visitors, boyfriends, girlfriends, people who have never come before, we're not cheering for the murderers. We're not. It feels like we are, I understand why that would bother a person and maybe scare them

to death. Uh-huh. That's not what's happening. At least with me. I shouldn't speak for everybody. All right. I got most of the research from this retelling of the factual story, from the A&E series biography that they did on these murders, which is actually incredibly thorough.

And they had a Scottish narrator, which I think is bold. Definitely. The Canadian guy was sick that day. The Canadian guy that they had for it. Well it was YouTube, so it's international, I guess. Unless they do only Canadian YouTube here, like they, that's the thing they don't tell you about Canada. They fucking take over your YouTube.

And the internet, like this site can't be seen, Canadian. Sorry about that. Okay, the other chunk of information or bunch of information that I got was, I stumbled upon this amazing article on a website called The Walrus. Yeah. It's so good. That's a good one. So a girl, a woman named Stacy Mae Fowles wrote this.

She is from Scarborough. She was 11 years old at the time that the Scarborough rapist. The rapist was at the height of like his reign of terror. And she wrote a beautiful article that I highly recommend you go read called Boy Next Door. It's amazing. It like, I cried at the end. It was really fucking great. And it made me really happy.

And I stole, stole, stole. Okay. Okay, so Paul Bernardo was born in 1964 in Scarborough, Ontario. He was the youngest child to Kenneth and Marilyn Bernardo, an unhappy couple. Isn't that how these always start? I mean, what, what couple that we know in these stories is happy or sober. Yeah. His father would later face charges of being a peeping Tom and a pedophile.

And he also molested Paul's sister. So that things were happening from jump for Paul. He also physically verbally abused his whole family and he often called his wife bitch and big fat cow. His mother was a depressive. I wonder why. And she'd also, she'd often leave the family for the weekend and just go stay with her family.

And after a while in this family, things got so bad that she just went down and lived in the basement. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. That's how some people cope. You just go as low as you can. Just get weighed down there by the Christmas decorations, so.

So dark. It just like, um, mom, is there any milk left? That's okay. I'll do it. I'll do it. So, um, although Paul Bernardo was described as a happy child as a youth, he, when he joined the Boy Scouts, all the, uh, people, the leaders noticed that he really loved starting fires. Matt was his Boy Scout jam.

Well, aren't they supposed to start fires in Boy Scouts? I got scared for a minute, but then I was like, wait a minute, but it's like you get your badge and then you don't need to start a whole bunch of other fires. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it.

Is the thing. Smart. So, uh, 1981, when he was 16, um, he found out that Kenneth, it wasn't his biological father and he lost his shit, obviously, although in retrospect, I would feel pretty good about it. Yeah. That's a positive. The peeping Tom is not your dad.

Yeah. Quit crying. Everything's fine. But of course he was 16. This had been his life. It's like he founded his whole life as a lie, so he, uh, was furious at his mother. He blamed his mother for the whole thing. Started calling her slut and horror, um, you know, and, uh, she started calling him bastard

all the time. Just fucking good times, Sunday to Sunday at the Bernardo's house. Come over for dinner. You're going to love it. Um, uh, okay. So after he graduates from high school, he gets a job with Amway, are you guys familiar with Amway? It's like a pyramid scheme.

It's weird. They just sent, they sell a bunch of different shit, but it's like really the point is that you get more people that you know to come in and sell this weird like laundry detergent and shit. Um, just a pyramid scheme. It's like, Karen, have you noticed how clean my shirt is? I actually did notice that here at lunch. Like B will be with that one of us.

Yes. Exactly. It's going to be that clean. Um, they're really not that clean, um, but what he really picked up from working there was this, the, the, what they call the, um, polemic sales culture. Didn't look it up. Not sure what it means, but what I assume it means is pushy, pushy, pushy. Like they don't take no for an answer and they kind of like get you from every direction.

They're super manipulative, um, or it could mean casual. Who knows? That's the joy of this podcast. It's all question marky. We have to stay true to some of our roots or else it won't be the podcast you listen to. That's right. I had to leave one thing on research just so you knew I was still me.

Yeah. I gotta be me. Okay. He starts using these sales techniques to pick up women, um, by the time he begins, yeah, because women love detergent, um, by the time he starts, uh, going to school at the University of Toronto at Scarborough, he is displaying, sure, go raccoons, um, he's displaying all the signs of being a psychopath, uh, charming, outgoing, life of the party, but also an incredibly sinister dark side that only a couple of people know about.

Like his girlfriends who keep on breaking up with him, all of his relationship, like like time lengths, just keep getting shorter and shorter because women get, go out with him and they're just like, sorry, you're not allowed to call me a slut. I have only known you for three days. Okay. We'll see you later. So, uh, he actually threatened to kill, um, a couple of his girlfriends if they ever told how abusive he was to them in their private life, um, he was fixated on conquering women.

He, he was just obsessed with picking them up, having sex with them, and then making them do whatever he wanted. Um, all right, so that's Paul Bernardo in a nutshell. There's, I'm sure there's tons of other things to say about it, but now Carla, this is because that obsession that he had making women do whatever he wanted. That's where Carla Hamulco comes into the scene. She was born in 1970 in poor credit, Ontario. Her father was a traveling salesman and an alcoholic, of course.

Um, she had two younger sisters, Lori and Tammy. Carla was also a bright student. Um, she was, uh, she, oh, she, their father was drunk, was a drunk that would insult the whole family and then he would go down into the basement. What the fuck? Isn't that fucking weird? Yeah. What are the chances?

Is that a thing here? They're like, yeah, no, everyone's parents said that. It's not it. Oh yeah, that's, that's Canada. That's where all the Kit Kats are. They just don't tell America, don't tell the US about us. It's that, what if it's very healing to go into the basement, it's actually very good for you.

They're just like, that's our secret. It's good for your skin. Um, okay, so, uh, also when, um, Carla's mother found out that her father was having an affair, she told him it was fine and to invite the mistress in for a menage a toile. So there's a lot of bad relationship patterning for both of these people. If I had a tiny red flag, I would check it right here. Oh. Here you go.

It would be fun. Okay. So, uh, she was described as a child as being stubborn, domineering. Um, she, she was a rebel in high school. She cut herself. She would always claim that she was going to commit suicide to get attention. Um, she graduated in 1988 and she became a full-time veterinary technician up until that last part.

That was so me. So me. Okay. Okay, in May of 1987, um, in Scarborough, a 21-year-old woman gets off the bus. She's followed by a man who was on the bus as well and, um, he comes up from behind assaults her and she ends up being the first victim of the Scarborough rapist. Um, and over the next 13 months, these assaults continue and they escalate very quickly. Um, the Scarborough rapist begins raping women orally, vaginally and anally, cutting them

or penetrating them with a knife. Um, he chokes them, he punches them in the face. He stole one victim's ID, noted her home address, and then threatened to kill her family. He broke another victim's arm. Um, all the victims were attacked from behind, so none of them saw his face, but they all described him as a tall, young, uh, man with light hair. Um, while he was attacking them, he made them call themselves degrading names, like slut and whore.

Um, so, uh, the police call in the FBI immediately to profile this rapist, which is a great move, and they bring in, um, FBI agent Greg McCreary. You have seen this guy on every crime show there is. He is the guy, he's the FBI agent with the gray hair who looks really tired of crime. Like, he's like, so fucking sick of people being bad to each other. So like, when he's explaining stuff, he's kind of quiet like this, but he's just, he's kind of like, man's in humanity to man. That's what he's saying, no matter what he's actually saying, that's just always what he's

saying. I love Greg McCreary. Okay. So, um, he does a profile on the rapist. He says, this is a sadistic rape, rapist with a high probability of escalation, um, young in his early twenties, local, intelligent, high functioning in a dependent living situation. So probably living with this family. So crazy that he was able to determine all fucking, yeah, yeah.

They know all that shit. And then a psychopath, obviously, um, so in April of 1988, um, a 19 year old woman is attacked after getting off the bus. She was actually pulled between two houses and raped and yelled for help and the people in the house has heard her and didn't respond. No guys. Yeah. That's how we, that's not how we do it.

No. Um, so the next month, the total number of known Scarborough rapist victims had risen to seven. Um, so this little, this little bit crazy constable Vic Clark told the press quote, don't expect people to watch out for you if you happen to come back at one AM in the morning off the bus, like the police, right? Like the police. He said, it'd be nice to think that you can go anywhere you like nowadays, but don't put

yourself in a vulnerable position. Hold on. Hold your hate because the same month Alderman John Mackie proposed a curfew for women. Oh, for women, finally, get about the street. We've been waiting. We told what time we're safe. Just the logic there is your curfewing the gender that is not. Okay.

No, no, no, come on, come on. In a refreshing turn, the Toronto Transit Commission instituted its request stop program. Right. So which meant that women who rode the bus at night could tell the bus driver, you can drop me right here in front of my fucking house and you didn't have to wait till the next bus stop so that women could get delivered exactly to where they needed to be. That's what you do. That's problem solving right there.

Moving here immediately. Okay. October 17th, 1987, Carla Molka is now age 17 and she meets Paul Bernardo age 23 in a hotel restaurant in Scarborough. Two hours later, they're having sex in her hotel room, which no judgment. Okay, look. Yeah. If it were anybody else, we'd be into it.

The friends who were with both of them that day said that the chemistry was palpable. Like it was in the air and like it at least is when two psychopaths meet and fall in love. So do you, Stephen, we put up that first picture of the happy couple Barbie and Ken look at those warm, welcoming eyes on both of them. They're just, wouldn't you love to sit in a hotel restaurant and stare across at her satanic, satanic eyes and then his, whatever they're doing eyes. And his tiny, tiny teeth with a fake smile surrounding them. He's like, this is what humans do when cameras come out.

This is it. Happiness. Well, Karla's family thinks that Paul Bernardo is great. They don't mind the age difference. Her parents don't mind the age difference. He's smart, good looking. He's trained to be an accountant. Her sisters think of him as the brother they never had a soon.

He's coming to her. She still lives with her parents and soon she's dry. He's driving to her house like a couple of times a week and it was an 80 mile drive from Scarborough to St. Catherine's, which is where she lived. She brags to her friends about how mature her 23 year old boyfriend is. Within a year, she's confiding to them that he has become verbally abusive to her. But she always forgives him. December 24th, 1989, they take a trip to Niagara Falls and they get engaged.

Did someone applaud? No. I think someone took their compact out of their purse because they have something in their eye. I love love and I don't care. She's like one smile. She's just like, shit. Okay.

So they plan to marry in spring of 1991. The family's thrilled. In May of 1990, which is six months later, the Scarborough police release a composite sketch of the Scarborough rapist based on all of the victims telling the police sketch artist. So can we see that composite sketch? I'm so excited. Oh.

Stephen, I wish you would crop that up a little higher. Fucking. Why do we pay you? Oh my God, he left. He ripped off his mustache and left. He looks like a fucking Nazi youth. He looks like he's in the style council. He looks.

Can I add another one? Yeah. He looks like when you walk by like a cheap hair salon and they have photos and the one does it. This is the, the called the Scarborough rapist. I hate to say it out loud, but I love this girl. Scarborough rapist look, I, is it wrong? I think of the sweep over would look great on my giant forehead.

Okay. Well, here's what's crazy is Paul Bernardo's friends and his coworkers see this and they're like ring, ring, ring, 911 or whatever it is in Canada, hello, get me the fucking police right now. Shut up. A ton of people that he worked with and that we're friends with him called the police and we're like, that's Paul Bernardo. And can we do the side by side comparison?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh shit. I don't see it. No, I'm just kidding. Fuck man. Okay.

So the police bring him in for an interview. He's polite. He's charming and he's calm. Like any good psychopath would be. He volunteers his DNA. What? What? It can't be you.

They collect hair, blood and saliva samples that are sent to the lab where they will sit for two years. I don't like that. It's 1990. So then he moves in with Carla and her parents in St. Catharines and suddenly the Scarborough rape stopped. That's crazy. He tells Carla that, so this is where it gets, I mean we knew this was going to happen

but this is so fucked. So he tells Carla that she can't give him the one thing he really wants which is her virginity because she already gave that away. So she can still give it to him just through the person closest to her, her 15 year old sister Tammy and Carla agrees. So on December 23rd after the whole rest of the family goes to bed, Paula and Carla invite Tammy to stay up with them after the, and Carla has crushed sleeping pills and animal tranquilizers that she stole from her job into her drink.

She loses consciousness. Carla puts a rag soaked with the drug Halithene over her face. Paul rapes her. When Paul is done, he tells Carla he wants her to rape her. She does. All of it is on videotape. So in the middle of that, Tammy begins to vomit and then choke on her own vomit. And Paula and Carla Rush put her clothes back on her and then call an ambulance.

In the early hours of December 24th 1990, Tammy is pronounced dead. And aside from the mysterious burn marks on her face which Carla and Paul say must have been rug burns, her death is ruled an accident. A month later, Paula and Carla move out of her parents house in St. Catharines. They move into a two-story house in Port DeLucey. I did it right. Good job. Thank you.

Because I spelled it, it looks like DeLuisie kind of. Just went for it. That could have, I really did. I'm proud of you. Thank you so much. It was really fucking scary. No, it's terrifying. There's so many people here.

Like you guys made us, not you guys, but this podcast has made us scared of staying places in this world. We never say it right ever. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's not your fault. It's our fault. But. Still, it's your fault.

Okay. When they're in their own house, he starts physically abusing Carla. And then when she threatens to leave him, he reminds her he is a videotape of her killing her own sister. And so she has to say. June 15th 1991, Paul wakes Carla up in the middle of the night to tell her he has a surprise. He has kidnapped 14 year old Leslie Mahaffey out of her own backyard. So this is super fucked.

Leslie had gone out for the day. I think I read something where it said that she was at a friend's funeral and then she stayed out past her curfew. So she probably like, if her friend died, she got drunk with her friends or something. And when she got home, it was past her curfew. Her parents locked her out of the house. So she went into the backyard and that's when Paul Bernadette saw her and he lured her into his car with a cigarette, offering her a cigarette.

She was like, sure. And then he ends up kidnapping her and taking her to the house. Paul and Carla videotape themselves, raping and torturing Leslie for 24 hours, then strangle her, cut up her body and case it in cement and dump it in Lake Gibson. Two weeks later on June 29th 1991, two fishermen spot some strange blocks in the lake as they're fishing when they look closer, they see the human flesh is sticking out of the cement. It's the body of Leslie Mahaffey's on the same day that her body is found. Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamoka get married in a Catholic church in Niagara on the lake

in front of a hundred friends and family members when in the special that I was watching when it switched from that to the video of their fucking fucked up early nineties wedding. It like the version of chills I got were like, this is insanity. These are people who are completely cut off from any reality of what they're doing. It was, it's horrifying and the hair and the dress so ugly is I'm sure that was part of it. Okay, now Paul starts telling Carla that he wants her to invite Tammy's friends over to the house so that he can do the same thing to Tammy's friends and she does.

So they start drugging these girls that were friends with her sister and a lot of these girls had no memory of anything happening. They only found out after the videotapes were found and then they were informed that that had happened to them. Oh my God. It's yeah. It couldn't be darker. Okay.

On April 16th, 1992, Paul and Carla are driving around looking for a new victim. They're just full on fucking predators. They see a 15 year old girl named Kristin French who's walking home from school. They pull into a church parking lot, Carla gets out holding a map and then when Kristin walks by she waves her like, sorry, I need to know directions and they pull her into the car and kidnap her. But this time there's witnesses. So people saw, people actually saw Kristin get taken but when they report it to the police

multiple people say that it was a beige Camaro. So immediately the police realize a girl's been kidnapped, a girl's body has just been found. We've got something serious happening. They start, they put together what they called the Green Ribbon Task Force dedicated to figuring out what the fuck is going on and the Green River Task Force puts up this billboard immediately. Have you seen this car? Wanted in the abduction of Kristin French and there's the Green Ribbon hotline.

The only problem was that Paul Bernardo drove a gold Nissan. He did not drive a beige Camaro. So it was a huge mislead. April 30th, 1992, Kristin's body is found in a ditch in Burlington. She's clearly been tortured. Her hair has been cut off. Then the violence within the marriage begins to escalate. On January 5th, 1993, Carla goes to the emergency room.

He has, Paul's beaten her with a flashlight. She has two black eyes that go from here to here and they're dark purple. She has broken ribs, extreme bruising. Before she leaves the house to go to the emergency room, she tries to go find the videotapes and she can't find them anywhere. 20 days later, January 25th, 1993, the DNA samples come back that Bernardo had given to the Scarborough police and they match the DNA of the Scarborough rapist. So the Toronto police bring Carla in to talk to her because they know you talked to the

wife, you know, like basically they have to break the news to her and then try to get information and it's our boy, FBI agent, Greg McCrary, who leads the interview. The Green Ribbon task force was there too and they did the interview and they knew everything that was going on. So they didn't accuse her of anything, they were more talking to her like they were being understanding and just basically trying to get information out of her. So basically once she talks to the police, she kind of knows that they're closing in on them.

So she goes to an uncle and she confesses everything, she tells the uncle everything that they've done and the uncle says, you have to get a lawyer right now. So she tells the lawyer, you have to get me full immunity for my, I'll testify against my husband, but you have to give me immunity. So then she ends up making a full confession saying that Paul is the Scarborough rapist, that he's responsible for the murders of Kristen French, Leslie Mahaffey and her sister Tammy and that she was forced to participate in all of it against her will and then she says all the proof that they need is in their house on those video tapes if they just find them.

So on February 19th, 1993, a search warrant is executed in Bernardo home, it's a 71 day search. What the fuck? Yeah, they just kept looking because they couldn't fucking find these video tapes anywhere and they ended up not being able to find them in the house. So without evidence, without that kind of evidence, they only have Carla's testimony, so they have to plea bargain with her because they need her testimony. So she agrees to testify against him in exchange for a reduced sentence.

The whole deal was kept secret from the public to ensure a fair trial for Paul Bernardo. So reporters were allowed in the courtroom the day of her sentencing but they were only allowed, it was a publicity ban they were called, they called it and they were only allowed to report on what the charges were and what the sentence was. They weren't allowed to report on anything else that happened. So of course, this made all the press go crazy of like, how bad is this? This must be the worst thing ever because they never do stuff like this. So in July of 1993, Carla Homulka pleads guilty to two counts of manslaughter and she receives

two 12 year sentences to be served concurrently. That was her deal. She sent to Kingston prison and then soon after she files for divorce. September, right? Yeah, like at this point, don't worry about it. Cut bait, baby. Yeah. Get out.

The lawyer's like, I'm not also doing that. You can't pay me enough. She's like, hey, every psychopath for themselves, I don't have a conscience, so I don't care about you, my husband. Okay, so in September 1994, Paul Bernardo's lawyer quits. He's not going to represent him anymore. That's how bad it was. Well, it turns out that the reason that the cops couldn't find those video tapes inside

their house is because Paul Bernardo's lawyer had gone into the house and taken them out. No. Yeah, they were hidden up in just for future use. If you ever looking for anything or need to hide anything, they were upstairs in a bathroom ceiling light fixture like hidden up above. What a dick. Yeah. The lawyer.

Dick lawyer, but then when he quit, he gave the tapes to the next lawyer who was representing Paul Bernardo and that guy's like, yeah, I'm going to go ahead and give these to the cops. The law. I mean, right? Yeah. Let me just say this though, not right away. Really?

Like two weeks later. Oh, like thought about it. I mean, I don't know. Let's slept on it. I mean, for two weeks, he thought about it and then he was like, oh, I don't want to be the devil like the rest of these people. Um, okay. So May 18th, 1995, Paul Bernardo's trial begins.

Oh, sorry. So once the police have the tapes, they have to look at them. They see what's on them and they realize that her story of Paul being fully responsible for everything is a total fucking lie and that she was happily participating in all of it in as coldly and horribly as he was. And that, yes, she was clearly an abused wife, but still on the videotape didn't seem to be having a problem with any of it. And they then realized that they, they called it the deal with the devil where they just

basically, they, they, they'd given her the easiest way out and she was just as guilty as he was, um, according to the videotape, which, you know, is pretty objective. Okay. Um, so May 18th, 1995, Paul Bernardo's trial begins. The defense claims that Carla was the one who turned Paul into a murderer. He was just a plain rapist before, but she, she fucking Yoko Ono that shit. She got in there and she fucked it up and she should have a curfew, but then Carla gives her testimony, um, and then on September 1st, 1995, the jury deliberates for eight

hours and then finds Paul Bernardo guilty of all nine charges against him, including two counts of first degree murder. Um, yeah, he's sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole for 25 years. No, that's not long enough. 1995. No. Do low math. I can't.

Okay. That's soon. Okay. And also a couple months later declared a dangerous offender, which meant that he would likely spend the rest of his life in jail. Um, don't clap so fast. Um, in 2001, an Ontario court, uh, ordered that all evidence from the Paul Bernardo called Carla Homoka cases be destroyed.

So Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French's parents and a bunch of the officers and the detectives that worked on the case went down and witnessed all of the pictures and all of the videotape and all of the evidence from the entire case. Watched it all get destroyed, um, which makes me very happy in 2005, 35 year old, uh, Carla Homoka was released from prison after serving a 12 year sentence, don't it feels like you're booing us. Um, she moved to Montreal. She changed her name to Leanne Teal.

Oh, we know who she is. Leanne Teal. That's what I would have changed my name to if I had to move away. Sure. His teals are great color and Leanne is a name no one uses anymore. She got married and in 2007 she had a baby. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it was recently discovered that she was volunteering at her child's school and, um, in June that school just released a statement, not naming any

names, but saying, um, that they do not allow anyone with a, uh, criminal record on their property. So she no longer volunteers for her child's school. Oh, do we have that? Steven, do you have that picture of this is modern day? Oh, shit. I wonder who did the school. Did everyone like recognize her and know who she was?

I think there's people out there that are like, excuse me, I know who she is. Like, I don't, there's, she couldn't move back to her hometown, which is what she was going to do when she first got out of jail. So she had to move to Montreal. What a monster. I mean, I'm sure it's great. I love French people, but yeah, she had to move to Montreal. She had to.

Uh, FBI profiler Greg McCreary believes Carla Hamulca may have been more psychopathic than Paul Bernardo, um, being that she was able to live with the murder of her own sister, just the, I mean, you can't compare psychopathy, I don't think, but, um, I like the idea that he was like, you know, something to think about. And the whole time I was, it's that thing where you're like, well, when battered women aren't they, you know, you have battered spouse syndrome, you're in that situation. What would you do? Yeah.

Or what would you be forced to do? Or what, whatever. Like this, this piece of information that I thought was pretty bone-chilling. When Carla Hamulca was questioned and fingerprinted by the police, um, they noticed that she was wearing a Mickey Mouse watch that looked a lot like the one Kristen French was wearing when she disappeared. Just in case you had any video worries about Carla, that she was being persecuted. Uh, I don't, I don't think if you were in that situation that you'd just be like, oh,

a trophy. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Fuck. My hands hurt because I'm gripping this microphone so tightly because I'm like, oh my God. Sorry. It's almost over.

No, no, no. I'm in a good way. That's not a bad thing. Um, in 2017, Paul Bernardo, uh, that's this year. So he has served 22 years of his sentence already, which means that they're now starting to discuss parole issues, um, despite being declared a dangerous offender, he is in 2018 or no, this year he's, he's eligible for day parole, which means you get to leave jail and then come back in the evening.

No, that's not how prison works. Well, everyone, the hearing was supposed to be in August and they pushed it to October. So and it's happening on the stage. Ladies and gentlemen, looking for a better cooking routine with meal planning, shopping and prepping handled. Hello fresh has you covered. Hello fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year.

Hello fresh meals are convenient, seasonal and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop? Which is dinner. Now you can enjoy Hello fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, local side dishes and amazing desserts. Karen January is going to be my month for Hello fresh. I am so sick of takeout.

I miss cooking so much I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since like early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and Hello fresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. Also get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder 20 with code murder 20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder 20 and use code murder 20.

Goodbye. Hey, I'm Aresha and I'm Brooke and we're the hosts of wonderies podcast even the rich where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva Whitney Houston Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched, but her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston Destiny of a diva will tell you how she hid her true

self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people let her down a dark path. Below even the rich wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Paul Bernardo's hearing will likely take place at the Millhaven Institute in Bath, which is near Kingston, which is where he has been serving his life sentence. He is eligible for full parole in 2018. So we'll see how it goes.

You guys don't do it. Please don't do it. Who here is deciding? Okay, so I just want to read you the final paragraph of Stacy Mae Fowle's article because I loved it so much. It's this quote. I came across a story that ran in the star published soon after the trial concluded, which argued that Bernardo was not the monster we wanted to believe him to be, but rather one

of us, a product of our culture, a man groomed with a pervasive violent hatred of women. Mary Lou McFadren, a women's rights advocate, spoke of the insidious impact Bernardo had on our community, that he had created an ambient trauma even for those who had not been directly victimized by him. It is a wound that will probably never heal. The Bernardo case has been played out as a titillating drama, she said, and we failed to understand what it's done to us. Wow.

That's it. So fucked up. Really terrible. You made up for episode three, I think. I can't say sorry anymore than what I just did. That's all I can do. Let's go back to episode three. Stephen, take this note.

Take out Karen's story and put this in, just out of the blue. Wait, can I retell the whole reason I told that story in the first place, that story of my friends? Oh, yeah. I don't remember. Like, this is one last thing. Oh, your hands are so cold. And dry.

No, I forgot. It's very fast. Okay. So Paul Greenberg, who was on a sketch show called The Vacant Lot, you should know him and love him. He is from here. Hilarious man. Now he lives in Los Angeles.

You might hate him because of that. Anyhow, he's the one that told me the story. His mother was an artist, and she lived in a high-rise apartment building that a pool on the roof, and she lived in Scarborough at the time that all of these things were going on in the beginning of it, not the couple's schoolgirl killer time in the Scarborough rapist time. She goes up to swim one day. It's daytime.

There's nobody up there, and she's doing laps. I believe at the time she was in her late 60s or early 70s. She's doing laps in the pool, and a young man comes out onto the roof as well. She doesn't really pay attention. She's just doing her laps. And she finally looks up and realizes he's just standing at the end of the pool staring at her. And as she's doing her laps, it's like he's just standing over her watching her swim.

And she is super freaked out by it and really scared. And it's getting to the point he starts walking along the side of the pool as she swims. And so she's shitting, and it's not the way she would tell the story, I'm sure. Until the fucking roof door bursts open, and like three families with kids run out, and she's like, who, I'm out of here. Okay, so she goes right back down to her apartment and sketches his face, because she's like, uh-uh. Well, when that Scarborough rapist picture came out, she went and pulled the sketch out

and showed Paul, and she's like, that's the man that was on the roof, and it was the exact same guy. Oh my God. Yeah. Chills. I know. Yeah. I love a first-hander.

I'm sorry. No, absolutely. I love a first-hander. Absolutely. It's the best. Great job. Thank you. That's okay.

Too much. There's too much clapping. It's too much clapping. It went from us needing it and loving it and making it, making up for a lot of love we lost to children, to just being a little too much. The clapping. To ruining our own clapping. All right, I hope you guys enjoyed that extremely, extremely dark story.

I am always impressed by how Karen can make it so funny, even though it is truly about the most depraved people on the planet. But let's get to our next story that I've chosen, which is from my favorite murder episode 63. The episode is called Steven's Tuxedo, and this is the story that the delightfully talented Georgia Hardstark told about Joseph Edward Duncan, and this is another crime as I mentioned that we covered on our podcast because SVU did cover it on their television show. And it's also, you know, a very harrowing, difficult story, but really, really interesting,

and Georgia tells it perfectly. Ready for a serial killer? I am. Real horrible guy. Uh-oh. Here we go. Edward Duncan the third, the third, the way I looked at you when I said that, was born on February 25th, 1963 in Tacoma, Washington.

And I said that he looks like the actor Ben Mendelsohn, who was the older brother from Bloodline. Remember that guy's got kind of a lisp, and he's like a broad, and he's like an actor, and he's kind of a little hot. Bloodline, was he the bad one? Yeah. He's the one everyone's worried about? Yes.

That guy's amazing. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So in 1976, he's 15 years old, and he commits his first recorded sex crime. He, at 15, he rapes a nine-year-old boy at gunpoint. Oh, fuck. Yeah.

I said I was going to raves at 15, and he was raping children at gunpoint. Fuck. Yeah. What happened to him? I don't know. And I can't find a lot of information on it. Okay. So clearly not something horrible.

Yeah. Hit his fucking head. I mean, and then he went to a boy's, I mean, it's like. They go to juvie, then they get raped. It's so terrible. Yeah. And their mom like, oh, I don't want to get as gross as I feel like it. I mean, we really could say the worst things in the world and be right.

Okay. The following, I want to say it, but it's so horrifying that like I, say it, and then Stephen will bleep it. Okay. I read somewhere, and maybe it was Ted Bundy's mom or some like, some killer's mom that like when he, she would take him to go to the bathroom, she would pinch his penis as a kid. Mm hmm. I think that's Ed Dean.

Is that Ed Gein? So he wouldn't go? I don't know to like, if he didn't do it, he, she would get mad at him and pinch. And it's like, how do you not get, have a sexual fucking sadist on your hands? Yes. On your gross hands. On your filthy, disgusting hand. No, that's horrifying.

On your penis pinching hands. I'm pretty sure that's Ed Gein's mother. She was out of her fucking mind. Yeah. I mean, he, he killed her, right? Uh, no, she died of natural causes. He kept her in the house and played with her body and then like wore her face in the moonlight. Pretty sure.

Sorry, Stephen. Well, that's romantic. Well, shit. Nipple belt. Yeah. So unbleep now. Okay. Nipple belt.

Is that him? Yeah. That's our guy. Should we give a shout out to the girl? Fuck man. We're going to need to post this. Like we got this like gift once and it was a box and there were these like this like crocheted belts in it and we were like, okay, all right, we are yarring crocheted belt.

Was that in Oakland? I think it was the Oakland show. No, no, it was sent here. Oh, oh, it was sent. Okay. Yeah. Because then you guys left and I went to take a photo of it and as I'm looking through the lens, I realized that it's a crocheted nipple belt and it's like every different

color nipples, like different races of nipples and it's, and I just lost my mind and like joy of like how creative, like that's the description of murdering us is like our listeners is someone crocheted a fucking multicultural nipple belt. A nipple belt giving Ed gain that shout out. Also the fact that you had to have that realization alone. It's actually almost perfect. Yeah. Because it's that like growing horror.

It was horror. We pulled out more like, is it a, is it a cat toy like this, like whipping it around? We had no idea. And then I, it just made me so happy when I realized how awful it wasn't the hat cutest way. Yeah. Cause you couldn't tell. You had to, it was like a magic eye poster.

You really had to stare at it for a while to understand the hideous dolphins. I gotta post it. Okay. Anyway, the following year, uh, Joseph Duncan is arrested for driving a stolen car and that's when he sentenced as a juvenile and sent to Dyslan's boys ranch in Tacoma, which you'd know is probably a hellhole nightmare. He tells his therapist when he's there that he had bound and sexually assaulted six boys. And he also tells the therapist that he had raped around 13 younger boys by the time he

was 16. What the fuck? Yeah. So he's a serial rapist. Yeah. Can you imagine losing count? Like around 13 boys. What does that therapist fucking go home that night and drink?

They're just like, now I become a sea captain. I'm done with this bullshit. I'm going to be a librarian now. To the lighthouse. He said, goodbye. I'm going to get a cat, you know, you know, maybe just a ton of cats, like 30 cats. Just pet him. Just surround myself with cats.

Uh, in 1980 still in Tacoma, he steals guns from a neighbor and abducts a 14 year old boy again, rapes him at gunpoint. And for that, he sentenced to 20 years in prison, but he's released on parole in 94 after serving 14 years. Then he's arrested in 96 for a mayor for marijuana use, but he's released on parole a few weeks later, but with new restrictions. And then in 97, he's around 34. He's arrested in Kansas and returned to prison after violating the terms of his parole, but

he's released from prison three years later in July, 2000 with time off for good, good old, good behavior, the serial rapist, the bee, good in prison, clean your fucking tray at the canteen at mess, at mess hall and you can leave. Uh, so that, okay. So in the summer of 2014, he's accused of molesting a six year old boy at a park in Detroit Lake, Minnesota, um, but he's not captured until March of 2005 and he's held on $15,000 bond. So there's a dude who's a businessman from Fargo who somehow Duncan had become acquainted

with who helped him post bail, $15,000. I wonder what brand of pedophile he was allegedly, allegedly business man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, very allegedly. Yeah. And if he wasn't, he must fucking hate himself now. True.

What if he was just trying to be like a good Samaritan? Yeah. He was a guy down on his luck. He says he didn't, he said he didn't molest a six year old boy at a park. So maybe he didn't. And now I'm going to spend half of some people's salary or getting out anyways, Duncan skips down. Okay.

Two months later in 2005, uh, Kootenai County, Idaho authorities discovered the bodies of Brenda Grown, 40, her boyfriend and her 13 year old son. They're in their family home near Coeur d'Alene and they'd been bound and died of blunt force trauma to the head. Wow. Um, and Brenda's two other children, Shasta, who's eight and Dylan, who's nine. Oh my God. I hate this one so much.

I know. It's so horrible. Okay. I know. I almost didn't do it because it's so bad. I will have to do it though. No, you have to do it though. I love the shit out, but I didn't know that this guy had so much background to him.

I didn't. But it makes perfect sense. Of course he does. But oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah, it's just one of those stories that you can't fucking believe is real. Yes. I, I can still see the TV when I was watching the news and them showing the foot, the CC

TV or whatever foot. Okay. Yes. I totally know what you're going to say, but you're going to give away the ending. No, tell your story. I'm so sorry. I will talk about it. But I, I saw it too.

And it's. It just burned in my mind. Yeah. Okay. So Shasta is eight. Dylan is nine. They're missing. The others, the three older people are dead.

And so they issue an Amber alert and they comb the area and they can't find the kids until six weeks later in July, 2005, Shasta is recognized from her Amber alert by a waitress, a manager and two customers at a Denny's in, but then they're back in cord delaying, court of lane is how you say it, court of lane. The workers freaked the fuck out and immediately phoned the police and they positioned themselves to prevent Duncan from leaving. Police officers arrive at the restaurant, they arrest Duncan without incident and Shasta's taken to the hospital to be reunited with her dad.

And so the footage we're talking about is of them walking into the fucking Denny's and she's got her arms crossed. She's like this little blonde girl. He's as creep. It looks like John Mendelsohn, Ben Mendelsohn and she's got her arms crossed and it's clear something is wrong. Yes. And you wonder if you had seen that, would you have thought something was going on too?

They must have because that many people, I remember reading about the waitress coming to the table and being like, I don't like to feel here. Are you okay? Yeah. What's going on? And I think she waited. Did he go to the bathroom? Maybe.

There was some moment she had with Shasta, I believe before where she was like, this isn't good and she called the police. Well, what's so weird about it is you, I have to wonder, they went back to the town they were from. So everyone in that town must have known intimately what both, what, well, maybe they didn't know who it was yet, but what she looked like. Yes. So there was another sighting of them, you know, in another state that they later realized

happened and the woman who worked at the store, it was like a gas station was like, I thought it might be her, but I wasn't sure, so I didn't do anything about it. And it's like, well, someone in your town would have done something and it also tells you like, if you have a bad feeling about something, don't worry about hurting the dad's fucking feelings. If this child looks in distress, at least talk to one other person about it. If you, if you don't send up every red flag you ever feel bad feelings, but there's definitely, if you're in tune enough, there's, when you know something's wrong, you know what's wrong

and trust yourself. I've always thought that like, if I see a kid who looks uncomfortable or in distress or not, not feeling like they're where they're supposed to be, it's okay for me to go up to a kid and be like, Hey, what's your name? You know, like engage with the kid. You know, I'm not a fucking dude, so it's not creepy, but like, like, don't do that. If you're a guy, tell a woman to do that. But you know, to be like, what's your name?

And if you fucking send something is wrong, like you can just tell by body language with a kid. Yeah. Something isn't right. There should be, yeah, I wish there was some kind of like set process or keyword, you know, whatever. Yeah. Listen, write down everyone's license plate.

Every creepy dude's license plate at all times. Just take the time. You don't need to work. Quit your job. Get a spiral notebook. Sit in front of a gas station. And just write down license plates for a while. Yeah.

Done. But I adore that Denny's waitress. Oh my God. I just, because you know that first of all, if they work, she's probably working the night shift. She's seen some loony tunes. How are they? You know, she doesn't call the cops every time she sees a scraggly, no, Mendelssohn

type. No, we shouldn't involve that actor at all. Poor guy. He's like, wait, what the fuck? Fuck you guys. No, we just got him fucking cast on the lifetime movie of this motherfucking case. You're welcome. Ben Mendelssohn.

We're creating work. You're welcome. hospital. All right. Here you get. Here's where it gets awful. So Shasta tells investigators that the night of her abduction, her mother had called her into the living room from the bedroom where she had been sleeping.

She saw Duncan, like Duncan was like, call your kids in here right now. She sees Duncan wearing black gloves and holding a gun. He ties her mother's hands with nylon zip ties, as well as the mother's fiancé and her brother Slade. Then he takes this Dylan, Shasta and her little brother Dylan out of the house. They get inside his stolen rental car and then Duncan goes back into the house. She hears her mother's fiancé scream and then sees her injured older brother staggering away from the entrance to the home.

But she didn't witness Duncan bludgeoning the three of them to death. He bludgeoned them to death? Tied them up and bludgeoned them. When Shasta's asked where her brother Dylan is, she said, in heaven, there may be some evidence down in the low low forest because that's where we were. What does that mean? On July 4th, 2005, Dylan's remains were discovered at a campsite near St. Regis, Montana. He'd been sexually assaulted and then killed with a shot in the head, after which his

body had been burned and Shasta fucking witnessed the whole thing. Oh, God. I know. Duncan had also filmed Dylan's final hours and Duncan can be audibly heard in the video, which was shown to the fucking jury. Can you fucking imagine how much therapy you'd need after that? Oh, my God. Saying, the devil likes to watch children suffer and cry.

Shasta's also repeatedly tortured and sexually assaulted, but supposedly he falls in love with her and decides to return her home, which is why they were back in her town. What a monster. That's disgusting. Monster. Yeah. Duncan later confesses that he had entered the home while the family slept with the express intention of murdering the parents and kidnapping the children.

He claims he wanted, quote, revenge against society for sending him to prison for 20 years for sexually assaulting a younger boy who was 14 years old when he himself was only 16 year old. So he wants revenge against society for being sent to prison for sexually assaulting. For being rapist. Yep. Yeah. That's not clear thinking.

No. It's not logical thinking. Listen, you're not taking responsibility for your actions. You're not fucking. You're not cool. You're... Dougson. You're the devil.

You're the devil. You're the devil. You're the devil's like, dude, calm down. Fuck. Can you skip to the part where he gets murdered in jail? Please tell me. Yeah. The devil's like, hey, man, I hurt fucking corrupt attorneys, not, yeah, sorry, corrupt

attorneys. Sorry, corrupt attorneys. So he's subsequently charged with murdering Dylan as well as the three other family members. During his incarceration, authorities are able to link Duncan to the disappearance of Anthony Michael Martinez, who was 10 years old when he went missing on April 4th, 97 while he was playing with friends in the front yard of his home in Beaumont, California. A man approached the group, asked for help finding a missing kitten while holding out a photo of a cat, as well as a dollar bill, and two of the children ran away in fear and

the kidnapper pulled a knife out, grabs Anthony and flees in a white car with red pinstripes and no hubcaps. After two weeks' search, Martinez's body is found nude and partially decomposed in Indio on April 19th, 97. He had been sexually assaulted and bound with duct tape. A composite sketch is made of the suspect and a partial fingerprint, but the case goes cold. And then when he is incarcerated, Riverside authorities are able to match the partial

fingerprint taken to Duncan, and so they officially announce his connection. He pleads guilty in 2011. The plea agreement carries a mandatory life sentence, although he won't get the death penalty for it in California because he pleads guilty. And also confess to two additional murders, Samija White, 11, and her sister Carmen Cubius, 9, who last seen leaving a Seattle, Washington hotel to get cigarettes at a nearby restaurant for an older brother. Oh, no.

I know, babies. Police said that they don't know whether the girls ran away or victims of foul play at the time. Right. Of course, a fucking nine-year-old is running away, an 11-year-old. That happened on July 6, 1996, that happened on July 6, 1996, then their remains were found on February 10, 1998, in Bothell, Washington, by a transient living in an abandoned barn. All three murders occurred while Duncan was on parole.

Of those murders, Duncan has only been charged in the California case. In all, he's been convicted in Ohio for kidnapping and murder of the three victims, for which he was giving six life sentences, in federal court for kidnapping Shasta and Dylan, and for murdering Dylan, he was given three death sentences and three life sentences, and in the state of California for kidnapping, murdering Anthony Martinez, for which he was given two life sentences. Is he still in jail? He's still in jail.

He will be forever. Let me double check really quickly if he's still alive. Yeah, because how? How? Unless they are keeping him in solitary confinement? Has he not been killed? How has he not been killed by inmates? That's like, he is exactly the example of a jailhouse justice type of situation.

Totally. Look, wanna see his picture? No. Oh, God. I, ugh. Steven, you better watch that mustache, because we are looking at a serious, I'm doubting the mustache. Yeah.

Although, murdering has got me a mustache, switchblade comb, so I can keep it in check. Okay, good. Yes, please do. That guy is, oh, the worst face. Not only is he still alive, he's blogging from prison. Fuck. Well, so he blog, he has a blog called The Fifth Nail, and it's something about how like Jesus was crucified with four nails, and this is the fifth nail, some bullshit.

Oh, I know all about that fifth nail. Do you? And so, he can't blog from prison, but he, he blogs about his day-to-day life as a sex offender, but so, and he denies being a pedophile, but so he sends his blog post and writing to people on the outside who post it, and like there's some people out there doing his fucking bidding. Probably pedophiles, right? Probably other pedophiles.

Yeah. Perhaps. Well, either way, you shouldn't, you're no good downright fucking piece of shit. It's so funny. That case, that little girl and the thing she went through, people, I feel like anybody that was like conscious around that time, paid attention to anything around that time, it also because it was early enough so that there wasn't, like nowadays there's so much awful shit going on, as we know, everywhere all the time.

They're closing down nature, they're closing down schools, they're closing down protecting people who need protection, they're closing it all down, it's insanity, it happens every day. But there was a time, and I used to think about it a lot in the 90s, where we had it, we were just like fat cats, there was nothing going on, it was before we got into that first war. Clinton, it was Clinton, it was the Clinton days, it may have been later than that, but, but still, it was like, there wasn't, so when something like that came on the news, it was

heart-stopping. It was like, you've got to be kidding me. How did this happen? Yeah. No, I mean, even in just the last couple of years, we hear about every single one of them, especially when you're into fucking true crime, I'm just constantly reading about these things and we're just constantly looking at, but back then, it was harder to find those things and the detail that you can get now and the photos.

And so, it was just this glimpse that you would get. Yeah, horrible. Yeah. God, that's... Yeah, sorry, so that's... No, I mean, that's like, that was a big one and it's interesting to know that that was a person that started doing that. That was an internally and intensely damaged individual that started pretty bad and it

got way, way, way worse. Right. Somewhere along the way, there could have been intervention or just something different could have happened. I think it's when eventually, hopefully, people start taking rape as a crime more seriously as a real, as something that this isn't something to have your hands slapped and walked away from and that a lot of people that do it, do it over and over again and intend to do it over and over again, that's a serious problem with a person.

And it's not... I feel like there's a lot of people who just think rape is someone who wants to have sex really bad. And rape is to someone who's just looking for sex. When you think about it in a way which it actually is, which is this fucking violent, insane mind who needs to overpower and hurt and fucking ruin someone, that is a criminal who should not be allowed on the streets after three years of good behavior in prison. And how often do they escalate?

I mean, how many stories do we tell that start off with a person doing it? He raped a girl in his town and then da-da-da and then he moved to this town and then suddenly he's murdering the people he's raping. I mean, it's the story every time. I feel like it's going to catch up slowly as long as we don't keep... Well, I mean, I feel like the more people who talk about it, the more people who have conversations, but also the more... The Brock Turner...

I was just thinking, that's what I was thinking about. Yeah, the swimmer from Sanford who got released because nobody wanted to mess up his swimming career and he raped a girl. So violently, who I think he drugged, I don't know if that ever came out to be the truth, but that's the theory. She was incapacitated. She was incapacitated. When she told the story, it's like she's at a party and all of a sudden she's waking

up behind a dumpster and the two men who witnessed it were so upset. The two men, grown men, were crying and so upset of what they witnessed. That's not something that you go, okay, well, don't do this anymore. Who would do that in the... It's like we have to start treating it and talking about it as the extremely violent criminal act that it is. And also, stop fucking using the phrase sexual assault. I was thinking the same thing.

Stop using euphemisms. If it's rape, it's rape. Some people say it like, sexual assault, it's not sex. Don't use the word sex when it's just rape. Unconsexual... Non-consensual sex. Yeah. Non-consensual sex is...

Is rape. Is rape. That's right. Sex is between two consenting adults. Don't fucking call it that. Also date rape is rape. Date rape is rape. That doesn't mean it's just nice and chill rape.

Nope. It's rape. Also, there's... It wasn't a pre-agreement that that agreement got broken, which is what date rape alludes to. That's bullshit. Right. You went on a date.

What did you... Yeah. Someone got upset. No. This person is a rapist. Yeah. This person... You don't rape people unless you're a rapist.

Don't rape people. Oh, man. I think we're coming down pretty hard on an anti-rape stance. I think it's clear that we're anti-rape. And we're saying it to our listeners as if we have to convince them of anything. You guys, stop it. Stop it. We're like, yes, to fucking crochet nipple belts.

No to rape. Just know where we stand. We're gonna tell you how it works. There's no gray area. Oh, man. All right. I hope you guys enjoyed that one and as a little update because Georgia told that story a few years ago, that man is now passed on.

So we have one less horrific serial killer out in the world. So just some information for you guys in case you were gonna look him up and see what's he up to now. He's dead. And now for a little bonus, I actually did a hometown murder and I have to say this speaks to the popularity of this podcast because I have not to brag, been on television. I have guested on many podcasts. I have done a lot of fun things.

I have never gotten so many messages from people that I have not spoken to since high school as I did when I appeared on episode 16 of my favorite murder doing my hometown murder. People really love this podcast, myself included. So as a special little bonus treat, we're gonna play my hometown murder for episode 16. Okay, so this is not quite a hometown thing, but I did go to college an hour and 15 minutes from my hometown in Connecticut and I went to college with a girl whose husband mysteriously

disappeared from their honeymoon cruise. They were on this cruise together and I think the saddest part of the story usually when I tell it is that if they hadn't gotten so blacked out, also all wasted, this probably never would have happened because they got really drunk, they separated, they were rumors, they were like hanging out with these Czech teenagers or something like that. I don't know what they were doing, probably just partying with them and they got separated and another girl on the boat took a picture of a huge blood splatter staying on the deck of the ship, which is on this big date line, there's a whole date line report on this.

So it was obviously something happened, but his body was never recovered, they were in the middle of, I believe, the Caribbean or the Mediterranean, obviously he was shark bait, they probably weren't gonna find anything, but she was on the talk show circuit with Oprah and Scarborough Country and all these shows and I think people found that she did not appear to be a sympathetic enough wife, like she wasn't falling, crying, people thought maybe she married him, it's like everybody's imagination takes it off, but I don't think he had a ton of money to speak of, so it wasn't like an insurance killing, I don't really actually, knowing her, I really don't think she had anything to do with this disappearance

slash murder, but it was pretty scandalous and I was actually on date line when they were investigating it, I was working at NBC, one of my friends worked at date line and I was like, does anybody here go to this college and I was like, oh, I went there and they were like, do you know this girl whose husband disappeared? I was like, yeah, we played softball together, they really want to interview you on a date line, I was like, okay, do I get to be on TV? I'm in, I was all in and then I went on and I just sort of talked generally about her and it was so embarrassing because first of all, I thought they were gonna do my hair

and makeup, they don't do that and second of all, they took a bunch of B-roll of me like walking downstairs slowly and they took an old picture of me and my softball team that this girl is in where my eyes are closed and I'm maybe the fattest I've ever been in my entire life and I was like, just don't focus on my face and date line was like, oh, we gonna focus on your face and they went right to my face after that and then went to her face. So I wasn't super happy with date lines production, but it was a really, it's a really crazy sort of unsolved case that is also interesting because his parents and I believe Jen, the

girl he was married to who I knew, were going, trying to take on the cruise line because those, I don't know anyone that's been on a cruise, like there's cameras everywhere and they acted like they had nothing on tape of like where this guy was or what happened or anything like, how did this blood splatter stain get like this? It was a huge stain on the deck and it's just very scandalous that they won't like kind of let this information out because people think they're scared about getting sued or whatever. So I know that they've made a lifetime movie about it.

I know there's a date line about it. You can search into it more. The date line, if you want to Google Karaklenk and few clues found in honeymoon disappearance will take you right to the link because it's a very scary Google result for myself. Well, and that was my hometown murder. I hope you guys enjoyed that. Thank you guys for listening. I'm Karaklenk again, the host of That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast along with my co-host,

the hilarious Lisa Traeger. Our podcast comes out every Tuesday on Exactly Right and give us a listen if you're so inclined. And before I leave, I just want to let tell you, stay sexy and do not get murdered. Elvis, do you want a cookie? No.