My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 285 - MFM Guest Host Picks #8: Kyle Russell (kikiwithkiki)

Episode Date: July 29, 2021

This summer, Exactly Right family members will be guest hosting My Favorite Murder! Each week a guest host will pick their favorite stories from Karen and Georgia. Today's episode is hosted by content creator Kyle Russell (kikiwithkiki), one of social media’s favorite Karen and Georgia lip syncers. Kyle shares the stories of the Amityville Horror Murders (Episode 90) and the Lindbergh Baby Kidnapping (Episode 119).See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime, and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook, and listen to True Crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder. I've always wanted to say that. Hey, guys, it's Kyle Russell, otherwise known as the Lip Sync Assassin,

Kiki with Kiki, from TikTok and Instagram. Y'all, I can't tell you how excited I am to be jumping in with the MFM and the Exactly Right Network's Guest Host Pick series, which is kind of a tongue twister. I think, as with most of us listeners, my MFM obsessions started with a cautious listen. You know, the kind where you're not really sure if you're ready to purchase. You're just trying it off for size. But I've been hearing great things about the podcast, so I decided to give it a listen, and thank goodness there were 12 episodes to binge because I was hooked.

Not just because I'm a true crime junkie, but because of our queen's razor sharp humor and ability to make you instantly feel like you're part of the family. And then the lip syncs happened. I started doing the lip syncs because I kept hearing people on TikTok, lip syncing to their favorite comedic scenes, and then the light bulb just went off. At first, I was only going to do duet versions where another person would play the opposite Karen or Georgia, but then I realized there were parts from each person's scene that were just as hilarious as the other.

So I started doing both, and the red cap Georgia was born. So, truly, from the bottom of my heart, thank you all for indulging my silliness. All right, everyone. So this week, I'm taking us all the way back to 2017 with episode 90, Peak Experience. Now, this one really sticks with me because of my love of scary movies and stories. So someone get Ed and Lorraine Warren on the horn because we're talking about the Amityville horror murders. I've seen all the adaptations of this movie, and let me tell you, nothing scares me like possession because it's totally in the realm of maybe kind of sorter could happen

possibly. We just don't know. Demons and ghosts aside, it was awesome to hear the facts about the DeFeo case without the supernatural Hollywood veneer we see on film, but the facts are still just as terrifying. So here's Georgia telling us the tale of the Amityville horror DeFeo murders. Are you first or am I first? I think it's you, Stephen. I think it's me too. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are we counting that? Yeah. We're counting what happens to us. We're counting what we decide. Yeah. And I'm going to go first. All right. Have a peak experience with this one. All right. It's October. Everyone's favorite month. It's fucking Halloween time. Listen, let's do this. It's like you're giving me a sales pitch in a

voice that says I'm not interested. I'm not interested in working with you. Well, I did this murder because I wanted to do it. And then I realized I could fucking tag it on to the fact that it's Halloween time. Oh, yeah. But it's very loose. Okay. So I don't, I'm not, I'm not married to it. You know what I mean? Got it. And I also watched this. The way I actually didn't think of doing this is I watched this movie on Netflix, like a Netflix movie that I had heard nothing about called Little Evil that ended up being so fucking good. Oh, good. It's basically if the kid from like if Satan's spawn, the spawn of Satan had a mother and the mother was Evangeline Lilly and she married a man who became the spawn of Satan's stepdad. And it is Adam Scott. Oh,

and it's so charming and so cute and funny. I don't know how this just like went under the radar and Bridget Everett is like his sidekick. Wow. It's such a charming movie. So it's like it's, it's like comedy. It's a dark comedy. That's awesome. It's so good. So please go watch it. And then I thought, Oh, that's fun. So here it is. Here's the story, the real story behind the Amityville horror. Yes. You ready for this? Okay. Just really quick. And I know I've said this a thousand times. The hardback cup, the hardback book of the Amityville horror. So it's shaped like a paperback, but it had a hard white cover. Huh. Was the book in my grammar school library that I checked out so many times sister Rita Rose got mad at me. I forgot that it was that book. And now I feel

like I've stolen a murder from you. You have not. Okay. And I celebrate this and I'm thrilled. Okay. I want to tell baby Karen a little Karen about this story. Well, she's right here. Well, I'm going to tell her right now. I don't want you to. That's what she's like. All right. So of course, everyone knows about the Amityville horror, the movie. It's this haunted house that's like, you know, inhabited by Satan and all this bullshit. But I don't know, people maybe don't know that it's actually based on an actual story that happened before the haunting. That's right. That's a huge fan of the book. Me and sister Rita Rose. What I loved about the book is the fact or this story, whether or not it's true, is it starts out as, Oh, they find out this horrible thing

happened in their house. But then they find out that there's something else going on. So they, but that could completely be for like the book and movie. Who knows if that part is real. A fucking tell you sweet. Yeah. Here we go. Yeah. All right. So the family, the DeFeo family, they consist of Ronald DeFeo, senior, he's 44 and his wife, Louise, 42. Ronald is a car salesman at the family dealership. Super fucking successful mob ties, maybe, perhaps, probably pretty much definitely. I mean, don't all Italians have mob ties? Oh my God. She just defended a quarter of our listeners. How dare you? So the random fucking car dealership is doing so well in Brooklyn that the DeFeo family is able to move from their apartment in Brooklyn to a three story colonial

in the charming town of Amityville on Long Island about an hour outside of the city. Do the whole thing on that voice. Okay. I was trying to be a real estate agent. Oh, that's fun. Yeah. That's why you put that neckerchief on and bake some cookies. Yep. All right. They chose this home. And as you saw on the cover of the Amityville book, it's a piece of Americana, two stories plus an attic. It's huge and sprawling. There's a boat house right on the Amityville River. And out front, they put a sign post that says high hopes, basically naming the house. So it's this gorgeous, huge colonial house. It has eyes. It has. It looks like it has eyes because it has these two windows up in the attic

that look like eyes. Yeah. So the oldest of the DeFeo children is Ronald Butch DeFeo Jr. He's born on September 26, 1951. Ronald Sr. the dad is a domineering man. He would fucking pick fights with his wife and children. He was physically abusive. And the target of a lot of this abuse was Ronald Jr. I'm going to call him Butch partly because he was the eldest. So there's a lot of expectations on it. And then it said that he would beat the shit out of him. You'd throw him against a wall and hit his head. So there's the head injury aspect that we all know and love. So as Butch gets older, he starts fighting back. And he's also known as a bully at school. He's just like angry mean kid. Bullies get bullied. Bullies are bullies because they've been bullied.

Exactly. So the parents, they try to take him to Butch to a psychiatrist. He fucking refuses to go. And so instead, they're like, let's just appease and placate him. And they start buying him anything he wanted and giving him money. Like if that's their solution. I bet it worked, right? I mean, you know what? The only way we would know if someone would do it to us. That's when we should try it. That's all I'm saying. What a bizarre plan. I mean, like, because I understand that they were rich, but that I feel like never in the history of man has that worked for rich kids. Clearly it's never worked up. But I understand, especially back in the 70s, it's like, well, here's what we'll do. If he's never unhappy, he's never going to get mad.

Right. You know, right. And so they start buying him a bunch of shit, including a $14,000 speedboat when he was 15. $14,000 today would buy you a nice car. Back then, can you imagine this? Okay. So these people, something happened and they're swimming in money. Why would the son, the son's owner of a car dealership in Brooklyn have that much fucking money? I mean, quality salesman. Just, he's really friendly and he's got a couple pinky rings, not just one like normal car salesman, but a couple. Well, let's say the thing, too, is he looks like Tony Soprano. Yeah. He's got that big, bulky, you know, intimidating presence. He's kind of, you know, he speaks like a long Islander shirt,

which I will refuse to do. Hey, the parkway is over by my pocketbook. It's a lot of that kind of shit. Why is there a parkway by his pocketbook? It's, those are the two words that remind me of Long Island. Because my friend Vicki, I used to work with my friend Vicki, who is from Long Island. And those are the first, like two things I heard her say on like one of the first days that we worked at Ellen together, where I was like, where are you from? There's no such thing as a parkway out here. Yeah. And pocketbooks, wallets. Stop it. Calm down. She also used to always say food shopping. I'm going to go food shopping where I'm like, that's just shopping. You know,

I don't care. You have to specify. Yeah. No, we get it. It doesn't matter. I had, I just got my food shopping done. How about you? I just went shopping for food. How about you don't tell me about your fucking errands? Yes. Just how about we all do it? Listen, I love you. Italians, Vicki and Long Islanders. Vicki aren't apologies in advance. Okay. Of course, not surprisingly, it only made things worse. And by 17, Butch had become an LSD and heroin user. Oh, which is like heroin in the 70s. That's when it was really organic. It's just gorgeous and golden brown. It was like a pure trip. I do feel like though people were so naive about drugs in the 70s,

like I, my friend, Jerry had a story about doing, I think they call it window pain, which is that intense acid from the 70s. She said they were tripping for days. Every day they saw the whole world in a different color. So the first day was red and the second day was purple. And I was kind of cool, but I don't want that. It's sound, it makes me sick to my stomach. No, I was thinking that too. It's just like, won't ever end. And that was just like, because they walked home from school and a guy was like, Hey, do you want to buy this acid? Oh, he loved it. He loved making them trip that hard. Oh, fuck that. Crazy. Okay. I ate crayons as a joke once when I was on LSD. Let's not talk about it. My friend and I were like, let's cheer these crayons up and see what

happens when we spit them out. That'd be really pretty. Oh my God. Cut this immediately. Was it pretty? It was gorgeous. I wore a vinyl dress to my own Christmas party and I was answering the door and people were like, are you okay? And then I realized it was because my, I was so cold, my lips were blue, but I was like, this outfit is amazing. I look like I'm from space. Hosting a party on acid. Not a good idea. Never ever. Don't do drugs. Okay. Don't do drugs, everybody. Expelled from school as well. So at 18, he's expelled from school and they're like, you know what? You know what'll fix him? Let's give him a job at the family car dealership. Yes. Let's do that. There it is. Let's not give him a lot of responsibilities and let's give him

a large salary. Boom. Sorry, you're reading me the Donald Trump story? What's happening? Political. You better be careful. I liked them till they got political. This fucking mom. Okay. So he's the boss's son asshole that's coming in on a full salary, but doesn't have to do anything. The boss's son, the, and then the boss's boss's grandson. Oh, and he's just like, pay me motherfuckers. How about you pay me? And he looks like he looks, and he's probably the original Brooklyn hipster. He looks like this Brooklyn hipster. Sideburns. What more do you need? Sideburns, beard, like 70s garb, but it's because it's in the 70s. Right. You know what I mean? It's not just like

fucking a bed bug used outfits from a thrift store. Right. It's the real deal. It is real. So, okay. He uses the money, the salary he makes to buy guns, alcohol and drugs, and continues his shitty behavior, which included runs with the law, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Once during a fight between his, so his mom and dad were fighting, meaning the dad was like fucking bullying the mom, butch points a 12 gauge shotgun at his father and pulls the trigger, the gun malfunctioned and didn't fucking shoot. Oh my God. So this guy's out of his mind. So in the weeks before the murder, this thing happened where, but it's 1974, butch is given the job of depositing more than 20 grand in from the car dealership to the bank. They're like, go to the bank deposit this.

Use your boat. Use your boat, which is like, why are you giving this kid that money? And not surprisingly, he reports that he had been robbed at gunpoint while he was waiting at a red light, but he had actually planned the mock robbery. And at first, the dad seemed to believe it. But when the police showed up to question him, which is like, stick with your story, bro, he fucking loses this shit and is super pissed off and refuses to cooperate. And then so his dad realizes something isn't right. And he thinks his son is up, was up to it. And butch threatens to kill him. So to kill the dad again. Yeah. Now, a week later, cut to the early morning hours of November 13th, 1974, the family is sleeping and butch goes around with a shotgun. So the first shot,

he goes into his parents' room, they're sleeping on their stomachs. The first shot hits Ronald Sr. in the back, tearing through his kidney and exiting through his chest. He fired another round into his back and it pierces his father's spine and launched in his neck. He's dead. Then he shoots his mother twice as well. It shatters her rib cage, collapses her right lung. And physical evidence shows that Louise's mother was awake when she was shot. Like she went to turn around to see what was going on. They're both on their stomachs when they're found. Then butch goes into his sweet baby brother's rooms, Mark who's 12 and John Matthew who's nine and shoots them both while they're face down in their beds. And then he ends by shooting his sister's point blank versus

Allison who's 13 and he shoots her in the face and then as young and she's killed instantly. And then he turns on his sister Dawn who's 18 and shoots her in the head, blowing off the left side of her face. So fucking brutal with a shotgun. So just after 3 a.m. in a span of less than 15 minutes, Ronald Butch DeFeo Jr. had brutally slain every member of his family. They were all found lying on their stomachs in bed. Butch showers, trims his beard, gets stressed in jeans and work boots. And then he collects his bloody clothing and the rifle, wraps them up in a pillowcase. And on his way to work, he disposes of the pillowcase and everything in it by tossing them into a strained, a stra-warm drain. I spelled that wrong. Tossing them into a

storm drain. And that's where the clown from it was waiting? That's the scariest thing I've ever heard in my life. Why did you say that? Well, that's what I think of when I think of storm drains. Totally. That or JFK being killed because they arrested someone in a storm drain right after it happened? No. Yeah. Well, you know what? Maybe I'll do it one day. Shit. I'd never heard that. Yeah. Every time I walk George, my dog, she, if we walk, there's a storm drain that we always walk by and she always has to go and stick her head down in it. No. And every time I'm like, if that fucking clown from it is in there, I am going to lose it. She's going to get her head chomped off. By what? A clown. She loves it in there. So many smells. I know. So many raccoons.

Okay. Then tosses it in a storm drain, then goes to work at the car dealership at 6am. Oh, all by himself? Yeah. Yeah. Goes to work. At the family car dealership. At the family car dealership. And I think they were like, what are you doing here at 6am? Which is weird anyways. You know me, Butch. How much I love working and getting along with people. Want to get an early start. Come on. I've got my boots on. My jeans. My beard is trimmed. So throughout the morning, he keeps saying like, I don't know why my dad's not here yet. So he keeps calling home. He leaves work around noon and he spends the day with his friends. And to secure an alibi, he tells them that he couldn't seem to reach anyone at home to let them know that he's like trying. And

hey, look, no one's, no one's answering. Yeah. He ends up at a bar real close in Amityville, real close to his house. And then is like, Hey guys, I'm going to go check on my family. It's so weird that I haven't heard from them. And then at 6 30 that night, he burst back into the bar and yells, you got to help me. I think my mother and father are shot. So Butch and a small group of people from the bar went to the home and they found the whole family dead in their beds. When the detectives questioned Butch about who could be a suspect in the murders, he told them that he believed that a mafia hit man named Lewis Fellini may have been responsible and that his whole family was like in with the mob and that they had wronged the Fellini family

in some way and they were pissed off at him. So he then gives them the alibi of I've been gone all day. And when I left the house this morning, my whole family was I think they were still alive. I think they were still alive. So they the police take him into protective custody while they search for the suspect. But when they search the house, they found an empty box for a recently purchased 35 caliber Marlin gun. It's for you gun people in Butch's room. And when the timeline came together, it's it placed Butch at home at the time of the homicides not after he left. So when they question him, he begins to change the story. He says that Fellini had appeared at the house early that morning, put a revolver to his head and dragged him from room to room as they murdered his family him

and an accomplice murdered his family making Butch watch. Then eventually under questioning, he broke down and confessed to killing his family saying once I started, I just couldn't stop it went so fast. On trial, his defense lawyer William Weber tried to prove that he was insane, saying that he heard demonic voices that told him to kill his family. But the psychiatrist for the prosecution proved that he suffered from anti social personality disorder, which doesn't mean you're crazy. The illness made him aware of his actions but motivated by a self centered attitude. And even at one point during the trial, he threatened to kill both his own lawyer and the judge. They put him on they put him on the stand. He it seems like that's his solution to a lot

of problems is I'll kill you. Yeah. Yeah. Which really, you know, as we're learning is not is a non solution. Yeah. It's this thing of like, people pretending to be crazy to get the verdict of insane. And it's like, no, you're just proving what a piece of shit you are. And you're also understanding that you need to plot this out. So it makes you look sane, because you understand reasoning and plotting. Yes, there's not the insanity part isn't there. It's, but you are clearly either a sociopath or just the most rotten spoiled child of all time. Like, is that where spoiling children can get you? Yeah. Because that should be a PSA. All those kids that are fucking screaming out loud in restaurants. It's like, get ahold of it now. Yeah. Or you're going

or you're going to go the route of the Mr. Butch to fail. Amen. Or at least something close. And it's or you're just annoying everyone else around you. And like, I'm trying to eat in peace. Yeah. Just no screaming. How about the rule of no screaming? No screaming. And if your child is screaming, take them outside. Or how about you glare at your child? No one wants you to hit them. No. But how about a good icy my father used to stop us in our tracks with the look on his face. Oh my God. Like, he's gone too far. Well, also, he was very large and intimidating. So I'm sure he only had to look at us. And you just like sit exactly where you were. This is not going well. Stop right now. Yeah. I love it. So on November 21st 1975, the jury finds Butch guilty on six

counts of secondary murder. He sentenced to six consecutive life sentences. But all these questions and this is like one of the reasons why this murder is still big to this day and people still debate it when it's clear that he just this fucking crazy dude on acid and heroin who was a piece of shit narcissistic asshole just killed his entire family. There are things that are weird that make people question what really happened and think that it didn't happen that way. So one of them which I totally understand and want to know the answers to is how did he shoot six people in four different rooms without any of them waking up or trying to escape? Yeah. And they're all they're all on their stomachs when they're shot. So no one turned over to be like what the fuck was that? Like they were

drugged? Well, that's what I thought too. Okay. No drugs in any other systems really period. Oh, yeah. And no neighbors heard the rifle blasts at all. And this is a fucking rifle. Yeah. The defense experts conducted an experiment on the Marlin rifle and I found that it's report. Report? Report. Report. Report. Report. It's spelled report, guys. It's just a report. It's noise was so loud that it could be heard almost a mile away. It's a rifle. Yeah. So how did none of the neighbors hear it? And that you can see photos they weren't that far away the neighbors they were like literally next door. I mean he must have done I mean like then did he put rum in something? I mean like he must have affected them in some way, right? But how did the neighbors not hear it

either? Oh, oh, like silencer. No, nothing. No, there's no silencer. There's no drugs in the system. Alcohol I doubted either. Well, but I mean, could there be a silencer that they didn't find? I don't know. Yes, I'm putting it out. I'm going to say yes. I'm putting it out there even though I don't know. Rifle silencer. It's probably Satan. Could be Satan. Yeah. It is weird. Everybody's sleeping on their stomachs. Yeah, that's why isn't one person sleeping on their side, right? That's normal human being or did he you know there's this the obvious answer to me is that he went from room to room and was like stay down there's someone in the house and like warn them that like don't move. I'm going to protect you maybe but then why wouldn't the dad get up and then

why would the neighbors here the shop first he went and killed the dad and the mom went into the kids room I was like you guys stay in here something's something's happening. Oh, that's fucked. Okay. Stay on your stomach. Stay on your stomach because I'm weird. You know what else could he could have walked in the room and they were sitting up and he said lay down on your stomach and then shot them because he didn't want to see their faces when he killed them. True. But he shot one of his sisters in the face. Maybe he was particularly hateful of that. Maybe maybe. Which is it is a thing that they fought a lot to don the older sister who was 18. Well, but then there's also the theory. Oh, sorry. Are you doing more theories? Which one are

you going to do? The theory that Don was his co-conspirator and she's shot people. Let's go to that one. Okay. Let's go to the tapes. So years it wasn't until years later though that Ronnie changed his story again while he was in prison and said that his sister Don was involved in the murders. Now listen, Ronnie makes up so many stories that you just they're all bullshit. Yeah. They're all bullshit. But here they are. That she had actually planned the murders with him to kill their parents after they had a huge fight with them. But they had no plans to kill the siblings. And then so she went to kill the parents. And when he found out, Ronnie found out that Don had also killed the kids. She was so pissed off. He was so pissed off. She had wanted to eliminate them

as witnesses that he wrestled the gun from her and shot her in the head himself. So the only person he was guilty of killing was this murderer, his sister. I mean, that sounds like absolute bullshit. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it sucks that we can't get any information about what their home life was really like from anyone but DeFeo and secondhand, you know, boyfriends and friends saying what it was like. But from their accounts, it wasn't good. Yeah. So who knows? He and then it was reported during the original police investigation that traces of gun powder were found on Don's nightgown indicating that she may have fired a weapon. But I guess it's also proven that if someone shoots you at close range, you can get that as well. Yeah. Then he

claims that his sister, Don shot his father, then says their mother distraught over that, shot Don and her three youngest kids so that the mother, that Don killed the dad, the mother killed Don, Don and the other three youngest children, then shot herself. And then when, when Butch found out he flies into a rage and fired one bullet at his wounded mother who would just shot himself. So the only person he shot was the, like, it's just, but all that happens way later. He said, he makes these stories up later. No, no, I get it. I'm saying, like, the reason that doesn't fly is because of the laying down on the stomach thing. Yeah. Like all, you can't have that kind of chaos and then everyone end up in the same position. I mean,

it's just like such a farfetched theory. It's stupid. Like to believe it is idiotic, especially with only the fucking testimony of a fucking crazy person who's trying to get himself away from any responsibility of what happened. Yeah. It almost sounds like somebody he like was sitting in jail bored and he's totally maybe they'll listen to me if I just make up a new story. Totally, totally. So in 1975, let's get to the fucking haunting shit real quick. Also total bullshit in 1975. Now we're in a fight. Karen, the Catholic, this is my favorite story. You can't say it's bullshit. I'm sorry. It's my favorite. I know. I want to believe it so much too. But the more I'm reading the more

I'm like, I know, and the movie when I was a kid scared the shit out of me. I also looked up when that was made and I was like, Nope, too young to have watched this. What, like 82? Something crazy like that. I don't want to Steven look it up because that would mean I was only two. That's the Jim Rowland movie, right? Where he's the beard and he's like super nuts. It's a gorgeous movie. I keep going to that digital clock that it's like 312 or whatever time it was that it happened. 15 or something. Yeah. And he keeps waking up. All right. So it's based on the fact that George and Kathy Lutz, they buy about a year after this, they buy the DeFeo house for 80 grand. They knew about the murders, but they were like, it's cool. We don't

believe in shit, Steven. 79. Then I wasn't born yet. 79. So I watched it in the womb. I think I watched it on like a Friday night. Yeah, classic sort of. No, it's because I remember watching it in my aunt's living room and I wouldn't have watched it when I was nine. Yeah, it was on TV. We must have been home alone turned it on and then I wanted to kill myself. It was like a creature features thing. Yeah. You're just like, what's this? Yeah, it terrified me. Remember the flies on the window? The flies in the window. Wasn't there a scene where like all the they were standing outside of the house when they had left it and all the lights were flicking on and off and all this crazy shit was going on inside? Yes. That scared me more than anything I ever had until I

watched it. Wow. I mean, it's not that big of a deal. That was a scary cat. It's a very big deal. Thank you. All right. Okay. So by the house, they're like, no big deal. We got a good deal on it. So George and Kathy and Kathy's three kids from a different marriage moved in. That doesn't matter. Then weird shit starts happening. What's happening? What? It doesn't matter. I mean, I don't need to specify that she had three kids from a different marriage, you know? It was just like... Oh, it's fine. Okay. Like, I don't want to shame her. Like, she's a diva or say with three kids. Like, I don't know why I did that. Like, I'm not judging her. It seems like information you're trying to convey. I don't need to. It's unnecessary and it seems... So they were

born out of wedlock? No, they were born... Just kidding. Listen, let me tell you about her life. Okay. So they have a priest come to bless the house. He said he felt an unseen hand slap him. Yes. In one of the rooms and heard a voice saying, get out. Get out. Get out. They said that they had crazy things happen, like windows and doors would lock inexplicably and then open and close. A devilish creature was seen outside the window at night. George was seemingly, quote, possessed by an evil spirit and green slime oozed from the walls and ceiling. The family, there was operations of hooded figures, clouds of flies. I think I already said that. Cold chills, personality changes, sickly odors, objects moving about on their own.

And then the youngest let's child, the little girl, became friends with a devilish pig, evil demonic pig, imaginary friend called Jodi. Yeah. Jodi the pig. Jodi the pig. Good old Jodi the pig. And then Kathy reports that she was often beaten and scratched by unseen hands and that one night she was levitated off of her bed. Shit. And then George says his wife was physically transformed into an old woman with the face and hair and wrinkles of a 90-year-old woman, which I'm like, that's insulting. Keep that to yourself. You know what I mean? Like convinces like you have too much makeup on. It's like, shut up. You know what I mean? But it was demonic forces. It wasn't just like, I fear you. I fear your old age in the future.

Okay. And then he'd wake up at 315 every morning when the murders happened. So just 28 days after they moved in, they fled the house. They left all their clothes in the closet, send food in the refrigerator. By the way, when they bought the house, it had all of the de Feo's furniture still in it, except for the mattresses where the kids were fucking murdered. No way. So what the fuck is wrong with you people? Like redecorate, man. Like the real estate agency is like, you can buy this as is. Yes. And it's a bargain. You know that murder house in Los Feliz that's been fucking closed up forever? Yeah. Like, can you imagine buying it? Be like, well, this is great vintage furniture. Just leave it. Yeah. No. Okay. So they end up publishing the

account of the hauntings in a book that was written by, that they worked on with Jay Anson called The Amityville Horror, True Story, which we all know and love, published as nonfiction in 1976, sold more than 6 million copies. Film version comes out, huge box office success, the Lutz has become famous. They later admitted it was a hoax. No. Yeah. When? Concocted with the help of Butch's defense lawyer, William Weber, member him who was like, no, he's crazy. He heard demonic voices. So they said it wasn't ghosts. They had all these fucking psychics and mediums come in and was like, there's no ghosts here. It's it's demonic possession, which I believe in ghosts. Sure, fine. Let's let's have it. But demonic possession is fucking stupid. I don't know.

Famous last words. So William Weber's angle was it just turned her head all the way around. And then I vomited his face. William Weber, remember, was trying to say that is you basically using this account who, by the way, they said that they came up with after a few bottles of wine. Oh my god. That part with the Lutz is that to like to prove that the house was possessed and so is Butch. And he was not responsible. Exactly. Yeah. That's why the family was killed. So Ronnie's still in prison. All of his appeals and requests to the parole board to date have been denied. And that's the Amityville horror and the murder of the DeFeo families. It's so family in the Amityville horror book. They talk about this red room that's in the basement. Yes. And how

it's filled with evil and all this stuff. And I was so fascinated by this. It's almost like they centralized where the evil was coming from. And like people tried to go in there and they would get crazy headaches and all this weird shit would happen. I was so fascinated by that. It doesn't exist. It. I'm sorry. It exists, Karen, in your mind. Karen, it sticks in your heart and soul. It's fine. I feel like at the heart of every story like that is, is people want to go like, oh my god, the devil has been here and there's flies on the sewing room window. But at the end of the day, the truth of it is a spoiled asshole drug addict killed his family, which is the thing people can't face because it's not a monster. And how could someone kill children? Right? Who had

nothing to do with any of this. It's like. So you'd rather be like the devil did it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's easier. Yeah. Oh, honey, I'm sorry. Oh, what a story. I love it. I can't believe I didn't do that. I know. I can't believe I did. I didn't even cross my mind that that was the story. I don't know why I was thinking of the Omen as that story. Oh, yeah, because he's the he's this for you, though, like the mark, the book you checked out. I totally forgot. Oh, yeah. Cool. But I mean, it's even worse that you could check that book out. It was so scary. It was horrifying. Oh my god. It was very detailed. And I mean, the none that was mad at me was the scariest part of all. So right. Looking for a better cooking routine with meal planning, shopping and

prepping handled. Hello, fresh has you covered. Hello, fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello, fresh meals are convenient, seasonal and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy Hello Fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes and amazing desserts. Karen January is going to be my month for Hello Fresh. I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since like early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and Hello Fresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you

everything, everything you need. So get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder 20 with code murder 20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder 20 and use code murder 20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Arisha. And I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva Whitney Houston. Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series,

Whitney Houston Destiny of a diva will tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. Wow. I don't know about y'all, but I'm still super creeped out by that one. However, I think one of the best parts of this episode is caring telling us it's her favorite story and Georgia's wholesale destruction of that dream. Kind of like when you learn your favorite nursery rhyme is actually about Bloody Mary and not a simple gardener. Next, we have an episode from 2018 episode 119 Fingers Everywhere. I love this one because it has everything babies, ladders, cross continental

travel. It goes all the way to the top. Well, maybe to the third ladder wrong, but still. So Karen's telling of the Lindbergh baby kidnapping always horrifies me because losing someone is everyone's worst nightmare. But the facts of the case, however, cut and dried they are still leave room for questions. And who doesn't love a good conspiracy theory? Not that you believe them, but that they make for great gossip and the whole eugenics turn girl, it's a mess. So here's Karen giving us the story of the Lindbergh baby kidnapping. So somebody suggested this on Twitter. And I was positive I was going to write her name down today when I was like, oh, I am going to do that one. She suggested it's a theme and she yeah, exactly. And she suggested it in a terse way.

So I imagine she's the kind of person that's going to be very pissed off that I took her idea and didn't give her name. Well, good. She said, Have you guys ever done the blah, blah, blah case? I think you should. It was something like that. It was basically like, come on, get with it. Yeah. And I was like, that's actually a great idea. Thought I could look her up while we were sitting here and my Twitter does a thing sometimes where it just won't go back very far. So I couldn't look it up. So full apologies. Hopefully I'll hear from you message me email Twitter first. Yeah, let Jack know to stop letting Nazis run free on his website and then that we need to be able to go back a couple days. Right. Just for the podcast or like search a word and

then. Okay. You know, also editing, it would just be nice to get one more pass before you send your ideas out. Anyhow, guys, this I'm going to do the crime of the century, the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby girl. I'm applauding you, but I would scare Elvis who's sitting on me right now. Yeah, don't worry about it. Also, it's not my applause. It's this girl's whose name I'm not saying girl. This girl. Oh, also I woman, we should be saying woman. We don't know. I actually could be misremembering and I'm just attributing like a feminine aspect to like whatever picture, maybe she has long hair. Who knows humans. We're going to that human is going to let us know just how pissed they are about not getting credit for, you know, a case. I also can't

believe that we haven't done yet. And as I was doing it, part of me was like, what if George has done this? And I was like, at this point, I just don't care. I just want to do what I want. I think that yeah, I think that's our new our new theme is did she do this? I mean, let's just start repeating stories and retelling them and just do better each time. Oh my god. Less and less corrections corner. Love it. And then in like seven years, we're going to get to that journalistic level. People have been wanting us to be at this all time. No, we're not. Never. And then we'll give up on the podcast. Yes, that's then we'll quietly walk away in the night. Yeah, because you know how quiet we are. Yeah, walk away. So I got all this information from

an episode of Nova. Oh, thank God for that. Yes. Baby, it's like and you can get an education for free on PBS. And the funniest thing is this episode of Nova featured John Douglas, FBI profiler John Douglas, who you just mentioned. He's the main basically they pulled John Douglas all the way through of going the Lindbergh baby case was and murder was presented in this way. And they got to this conclusion. John Douglas doesn't agree. John Dougie. So we call him, you know, in there with his super reasonable face or friend glasses, holding his glasses in his teeth, friend of the show, John Douglas, there's a Netflix series called Conspiracy that is good. And I got and they do the thing where they do it's compilation. So it's like three stories in

each episode. And this one, what's that? You don't get bored. Yeah, they keep it moving. And this one is the episode is Disappearances. It's also the other. I can't remember what the third crime is, but the other first crime in that is the Lord Lucan. Oh, you did that guy. Disappearance. Yes, I did do that. I love it. Loving it. So here we go. Here's a little backstory for you. Why anybody cared about Charles Lindbergh in the first place. On May 21, 1927, a 25 year old US airmail pilot named Charles Lindbergh touched down in an airfield outside of Paris, France, in his plane, the spirit of St. Louis. When I read that name, I'm like, Oh, that's what that is. What? You know, the spirit of St. Louis. Oh, yeah. Like if you had asked me that, I would have

confused it with the spruce goose. I would have, you know, maybe an Amelia Earhart situation. Exactly. I would at least, you know, it's a plane. We know it. Maybe it's a plane or, but now we know exactly that's Charles Lindbergh's wonderful plane that got him. He was the first man to ever make the nonstop flight from New York to Paris. It was 33 and a half hours. Jesus. 3600 miles. Is that like in one of those planes that doesn't have a face either? So it's just like, no, a biplane. I'm pretty sure it had a face on it. Although I, why would I, why would I say that if there were two years in? Why would I fucking say that? Because you're not going to start now with not knowing shit. I look, my brain shows me movies and that's reality to me. And I

just report to you. Yes or no. My brain shows me movies and that's reality. And that's my reality. I love it. It was 33 hours. We complained about four or five hours to New York City. 33 hours and 33 hours alone in all, all day, all night. And all you hear is, and he couldn't bring a bunch of extra shit. Stephen's on the plane. And do you know, thank God, the spirit of St. Louis is closed in the front. Thank God. But I bet it's loud as fuck still. Oh, the whole thing, it looks like a big aluminum can. No temperature control. No toilet. No, it was freezing. You know, he was peeing in an old Pepsi bottle. I mean, throwing it over, over board, throwing it overboard for the first time in human history.

Okay, so he, when he sets down in Paris and he does this thing. So just to give you a little, ooh, did that fucking huh? God damn it. I cut and pasted it and then lost, lost this piece of information. But like six other people had tried to do this and three of them died. So this wasn't a thing. This was not, um, this was something because it was, there was a prize. It was, um, these people said whoever does this first gets $25,000. Jesus. So lots of pilots and different people were, um, were, uh, trying for it. And it's really hard. And some people like had to ditch out and whatever. But like people lost their lives trying to make this flight. So when Lindbergh landed in this airfield outside of Paris, he was immediately an international superstar.

He was the most famous man in the world. He got carried around the people that were waiting at the airstrip. He never had a walk again. He never walked again. His feet became curled and after a feed. No, um, they, they said they held him. This is on the Wikipedia page. They, they carried him on their shoulders for over a half an hour. Jesus. He's like, I've only wanted to touch the ground for the past 30 hours. The first three were great. Put me down. Yeah. He's like, this is the exact position I've been stuck in for 33 hours. All right. So he, he gets the nickname Lucky Lindy, um, gets that 25 K. He also gets thousands and thousands more for all these promotional. Oh yeah. I bet. Because apparently bottles. Pepsi company.

Pepsi is like, we want that bottle. Um, but apparently this really opened up aviation in general, but also for air mail. So he was the guy that kicked it open over like FedEx and everything. Or it's like, you want, you want to get something to Europe. We're doing now. We're gonna be able to do that. Um, and that was kind of what the whole contest was about. Okay. Was to kind of focus on aviation, but then like, you know, opening up so that suddenly people were thinking, you know, business in terms of aviation. I don't know what I'm talking about. Okay. He was, he given the Medal of Honor, which is the military's highest award. And he was given, uh, he was Time Magazine's first ever man of the year. Wow. And still the youngest to this day. He was 25 years old. That's so

young. Yeah. And he was kind of hot too. Well, do you know who he looks like? Do you mind pulling up a picture of Mr. Charles Lindbergh at age 25 when he made this flight? Don't tell me until I see it. Okay. Who is it? We're gonna, I'm gonna show you a picture. Okay. You're gonna tell me who you think this man looks like. Now, please take your time. I'm just killing time while Stephen finds out. Was he tall? He looked tall. He was tall. Yes. Okay. He was tall. He was blonde. He had a dent in his chin. Love it. He was, his coloring was very like caramel, but with blonde hair, which you know, those people. I don't care. Those people always win. They always win. Let me pull up. Oh, it's such an old man of the year thing that it's illustrated. That's how long ago this

story took place. Come on. I'm sorry I did this. No, no, it's okay. Because why don't you look at this picture and tell me. Oh, hello, handsome. Who you think this looks like? Well, I'm gonna get this wrong. No, you're not. He looks, he definitely looks like he's in a Brit pop band from the 60s in this photo, doesn't he? Yes. Does he look like, God, he's hot. Tell me. Paul Holes. Look at the face of it. He does look like Paul Holes. This is the Holes episode. Well, let's just work all this Paul Holes stuff out now. This is the Holes upon Holes upon Holes episode. Okay, so he does look like Paul Holes. So Lindbergh being the most famous man in the world and like, he's being, he's being brought everywhere. He's like, he's being fed it in this really intense way. And he's

making a ton of money. They said that for everything that kind of he got paid for around that flight, he made like almost half a million dollars in today's money. Okay. So, but still a lot of money. I'll take today's money, half a million, for fuck's sake. It's pretty nice. So he gets a financial planner, a financial consultant from JP Morgan, a big company. And it's a big company, did you know? And the planner's name is Dwight Morrow. And he's also the ambassador to Mexico. He was, you know, this was when they gave important job, a ton of important jobs to one white guy. It was the 20s. So when Morrow invites Charles Lindbergh to come on a Goodwill tour of Mexico, because he's famous and everyone loves him. Well, just by chance, Morrow's daughter Ann is down there.

And they meet and they fall in love. Rich people falling in love. Rich, good-looking people who have their own planes, falling love all the time. They deserve everything. They deserve to fly. Okay. He teaches her how to fly. I bet he does. Yeah, girl. And then he teaches her how to, I don't know, love. They get married, immediately start a family. Charles Lindbergh was very vocal and verbal, insulting, or criticizing, I should say, other pilots of the day. There was lots of, you know, pilots like the Emilia Earhart era, where it's like being dashing, being, you know, being a pilot was a big deal. He was a trash talker. He was because he said that Air Force Cadets and pilots of the day, they were all, they were, had facile attitudes about women.

Oh, how dare you. How dare, whereas he believed the ideal romance was stable and long term, with a woman with keen intellect, hey, good health, whoops, and strong genes. Oops. Oh, so you're a Nazi. Uh-huh. Good one. Good eye. His quote, experience in breeding animals on our farm taught him the importance of good heredity. Of good breeding. Oh, dear. Hey, Chuck. No. No, no. Okay. So that's just a little, that's your, that's your foreshadowing. Okay. So let's go to the crime. This is 1932, Anne and Charles Lindbergh have been married. And they now have two kids and newborn and their baby Charlie, their first son, who is two years old. On March, on Tuesday, March 1st, 1932, the family staying at their as yet unfinished new house in Hopewell, New Jersey, or right outside

of Hopewell, New Jersey. They only visited this house on the weekends. They were, they were living full time at Anne Marrow's family estate called Inglewood. Inglewood. Rich people. Yeah, represent. So no one except for the family would have known that they would have been at this house because they, they were full time living at the Inglewood estate, but they would come to the Hopewell house and live there just for the weekend, just for fun of like this is going to be our new house. Okay. There was, of course, full staff at both houses. So some time between eight and 10 o'clock on March 1st, one or more, they're still not sure kidnappers, lean a homemade folding ladder. So it's a ladder that has three pieces that like slide into each other, an extending ladder,

I guess, but it's homemade. Lean it up against the wall of the house, underneath the baby's window. The windows unlocked. The kidnapper breaks in, grabs the two year old. They say, they theorize that they subdued the two year old somehow because no sound was made. Yeah. No one in the house heard anything. Everyone was still awake. So it's not like everyone was asleep and the baby was stolen. Everyone's up and awake downstairs. The baby doesn't make a sound. They go back out down the ladder and off into the night with Charlie and they leave a window, a letter on the window sill. So there's another ransom demanding $50,000 to be dropped off at midnight at a local cemetery on April 2nd. And they warn not to contact the police or they'll

kill the baby. So basically Charles Lindbergh takes over this case. Now, it seemed to me that what they were kind of insinuating in both of these specials is that Charles Lindbergh really kind of believed he was the shit that the world was saying that he was for making that transcontinental flight. He was cocky. The transatlantic flight. Yes. Some people believe he was a narcissist, you know, whatever. But essentially, once this started happening, he didn't trust anybody. He didn't trust the police and he basically told everybody how it was going to go. And in doing so fucked up this investigation that then also some people afterwards kind of theorized maybe he was doing it on purpose. So there's there's suspicion cast,

but he basically told the police, like, we're going to make this ransom drop. You will not tail anybody. You will not follow them to it. Yeah. But but we're going to do it. And so the police said, okay, fine, just let us let us organize the money, the cash that you're going to drop. Because what the police wanted to do was essentially they're using gold. It was like they're the gold standard. There used to be bills that were like it was gold standard money. Yeah. And they were beginning to phase it out. But they were like if if we just use only money with these serial numbers, it'll be easier to track what if these people try to spend this money after the fact. Right. So they put together $50,000. They put it in this wooden

box. Now, of course, when the kidnapping happens, it's it's everywhere. It's the hugest story in the nation and remained so. Of course, it got even worse after but yeah, it's the hugest story. So when they know that there's a kidnapping and there's a ransom note, a retired school teacher named Dr. John Condon who idolized Charles Lindbergh puts an ad in the paper saying that he volunteers to be the go between and make the ransom drop at the cemetery. No, don't trust him. Lindbergh and the kidnappers both say good sounds good. So then what is this world? You have to see it in the in the Nova Special. The Nova Special is really good because it has so much footage. It's so crazy. I love it. There's footage from there's

footage from the trial. Like it's it's intense. Yeah. But this old guy, it's just another one of those things where like it's a guy in a three piece suit. So everyone went yeah, do whatever you want. Come on into this thing and he is a blowhard and he you know, they say he had good intentions, but he made himself. He's one of those people he was like looking for the spotlight. So basically he goes he goes to the cemetery to make that drop and he hands over a box full and it's a wooden box full of fifty thousand dollars in these special bills and he exchanges that for a note saying where baby Charlie can be found. The kidnappers take the box of money, they give the note, they disappear and the information in the note turns out to be incorrect.

So it was all of that was for nothing. Yeah. So they still don't have the baby and the kidnappers have gotten away scot free. Yeah. So you saw it coming. Yeah. So six weeks later on May 12th, a truck driver driving from Princeton to Hopewell pulls over because he has to use the bathroom. He walks into the woods a little bit. No. This is five miles away from the Hope Lindbergs Hopewell estate or home and this truck driver finds the decomposing body of Charlie Lindberg and the police and the coroner and everybody determine eventually determine the baby was killed the night that he was taken. So it turned out that he had his skull was fractured on one side and then there was a hole

in the other side of the skull, the opposite side kind of back by the ear. And so the police report said that the officer that went and tried to get the body, you know, like pull the remains out of the mud had used a stick and they the officer thought he had poked a hole through the skull with the stick. But in this episode of Nova, there's a man named Dr. John Butts and he's the North Carolina Chief Medical Examiner John Butts. He's retired medical examiner, but he's also an expert on the death of suspicious death in children. Oh my God, I want to talk to him forever. Right. And he's so I love when those guys come on and they're just like, Nope. And it's basically he's saying you could not the way, especially children's skulls are,

you couldn't poke. There's no way to do that. And so even if whether or not this person was just simply mistaken and freaked out, or they were trying to mislead, he believes that the original wound, oh, because the theory was from that, the theory became that when the kidnappers were coming back down this story has stuck this part, I know, and it fucking is horrifying. Yeah, they think they thought at the time the kidnappers were coming down the ladder with the baby and drop the baby or fell forward at the because wasn't one of the ladder rungs broken. Yeah, this ladder is the rickety is dumbest looking thing you've ever seen. It's truly like if we went and made our own ladder, I mean, anything's possible with a homemade three tiered ladder,

insane. And when you see this thing, and you can see it in the Nova thing, it's like it doesn't even make sense. But the problem is, with that theory, the fracture, that only accounts for the fracture on one side, right? And it doesn't include that just the baby had more injuries than that. And they I think probably maybe in the hopes of simplifying, but basically they weren't taking into account. And so Dr. John Butz was like, that baby must have been laying down. And there is a blow to one side of the baby's head, which caused the hole by the ear. And the pressure of that caused the fracture on the other side. That's that's his theory, personally. Yeah, no buts about it. Is that a TV show? Ah,

and then he just goes through and is talking about horrible childhoods. Everyone's like, wait, I thought this was he's like, and this out went and there's no buts about it and everyone's crying. I don't want to talk about this anymore. Two and a half years after the body is discovered, it's basically goes cold for a little while. Yeah. A man in New York State buys 98 cents worth of gas. But he pays with a $10 gold certificate with this old money. Yeah. And the attendant cites it and writes down his license plate number, not because he knows it has anything to do with the Lindbergh kidnapping, but he knows that money is that currency is going out of use. And he wants to make sure he writes the license plate number down because he wants to

make sure he can get a hold of that guy if the bank doesn't take his money. What a crazy world to live in that that certain currency is going out and not going to exist anymore. Yeah. Like imagine just living it. It's so old timey. It is but it all looks exactly the same. It's the same design as modern money. It just had yellow like gold things on it. I don't I didn't look up what the gold standard was. I didn't. But you know, if you're interested in currency or the US meant, I urge you to take a tour and educate yourself. I can't do it all. So the cool thing is then he immediately calls the bank. The bank recognizes that it's on this list of the Lindbergh ransom money and they call the police. So why do I think I can hold a huge cup of coffee and do this at the

same time? So that license plate is tracked back to a car that belongs to a man named Bruno Richard Hotman. Hotman is a German immigrant carpenter who lives in the Bronx. And when the police search his home, they find a little less than $14,000, which is exactly two thirds of the ransom money. No way. I'm sorry. One third of the ransom money. Got it. That's what I thought. Yes. 50,000 half is 25. Yeah. A third. I wrote two thirds. Well, the other person has two thirds. Right. It's the non. That's what you meant. It's the third. That's not the two thirds. Exactly. And that's what I'm trying to say. He has he so basically he has the money with the serial numbers in his house. He also has a handgun. They're like, it's this guy. Then they look up

that he has a criminal record where he's from in Germany. He had two arrests, one for climbing up a ladder into the second story window. What? To break into the mayor's house. Shut your fucking face. To break into the mayor's house. That's Germany? To the whole mayor of Germany. And the other crime was for holding up two women who were pushing a baby carriage. Dude, you're like, it's like a map. It's a map and it's like, here's one thing I'm not afraid to do. Right. Here's this other thing I'm interested in doing. Also, I love ladders. Also, god damn it, I love to make a ladder. Now, on that very topic, if you picture, so this ladder needs to be tall enough to reach a second story window. Yeah. So it's like, he made a normal ladder. Then he made a slightly

smaller ladder that would slide up within that ladder. And then a third one. Like that's how rickety and janky this ladder was. I wouldn't claim that thing. And they find that the third section of this ladder, there's a piece of it that's made from yellow pine. And when they look up into Richard Hotman's attic, the floorboards of the attic are made of yellow pine. They pull that shit down, they pull that piece of the ladder off, and they match it exactly. So it's one more piece of like confirming evidence that this guy was there and had something to do with that. Oh, sorry. Also, the bottom legs of the bottom part of the ladder broke. And that's what led them to that theory that the baby fell and cracked itself. Because the part of the later

ladder that he left there, the bottom legs were broken or had cracked is rickety as shit. It's like why even just get four people to and climb on their backs would be safer. Okay. So all of that, all of that combined gets Richard Hotman arrested on September 19th, 1934. And talk about this like how it all went so fast back then and there was no but also the world was watching this crime. I mean, that when that baby was found dead, they said the nation hadn't mourned like that since Lincoln was assassinated and didn't mourn like that again until JFK was assassinated. It was like this was everybody's baby. And it was this hero, this American hero's child. Yeah, but we still have the it's it's almost why we have, you know, the peels and shit today is because you didn't

have that back then. Yeah, just fucking killed Ethel and Julius Rosenberg out the fucking bat. Yes, they were their solution to everything was just okay, great kill them. We get we solved it. Now now we don't do the paperwork. Kill them before they ask any questions about what happened. Yes, quick kill quick beat them for 10 hours and then kill them as quickly as possible. They confess killing. Okay. So he stood trial January 2nd, 1935. And he's found guilty on February 13 of the same year and given the death sentence. Now, at one point, he maintained his innocence throughout the whole time, including when the cops were like, if you give us the names of your co conspirators,

we will reduce your sentence will make sure that you don't get the death penalty. And he he he just maintained his innocence and didn't give any names. So on April 3rd, 1936, Bruno Richard Hotman is put to death in the electric chair by the state of New Jersey. Yeah. So now there's all kinds of theories, of course, about this murder. That was it. So that case closed case closed. They got the guy and and you can see in this Nova special, they have clips of him on literally on the stand during court and the lawyer is yelling at him so loudly. Like there's no microphones, obviously. It looks like he's just sitting in a chair raised up above everybody. And the lawyer is like, don't you tell me? And it's like yelling the place is

packed. It was a total zoo like that it the the circus surrounding area was packed with like thousands of people going just being at the courthouse every day is super crazy. So yeah, they just wanted it over. They were just like done. And they were like, oh, he's he's doing the thing a guilty person would do, which is like, no, no, no, I didn't do it the whole time. And yeah, like even the phrase the Lindbergh baby, like that was like, it was a huge story. It was it was a huge story and people wanted someone to pay. Yeah. This was a this was like this tragic thing that seemed unnecessary. And they wanted someone to pay out. So here's the theories. Of course, the first and strongest is that he didn't act alone. Nobody thinks he acted

alone. The lick the liquor, the latter was too rickety. Somebody needs to hold that stupid thing from the bottom because it was like the dumbest ladder of all time. Yeah. Once he got inside, there's a baby that would make noise. So you have to have, you know, they're going to have to subdue that baby somehow. And then they have to get back out and back down the ladder holding it still. Nothing about it just couldn't they just don't see how it could be done by one person. Yeah. Yeah. And there's just so much organizing and you know, stuff to do. Also later, they do handwriting comparisons. They were 15 overall. The police don't know officially because Lindbergh was like, you don't get to be a part of this. But there were 15 different ransom letters that

were written. What? Yeah, they communicated a bunch. And you know, with the old retired school teacher Lindbergh, they were masterminding all of it. And at the time and in court, they proved the handwriting expert at the time proved that it was Richard Hopman's handwriting on all the letters. But of course, modern day and in this episode of Nova, they're just like, yeah, it is inconclusive. And it's that super cool modern handwriting analysis where they're taking the, you know, like two letters that always get written together like a E and a T or whatever. And then they're showing how it's like all percentages. It's very scientific. Exactly. Of like, this matches this doesn't because of course, in every letter, a couple

things match and then and then some things don't. So it's all total like percentages by the numbers. And it depends on what letters are written before and after them and where they place in the in the word. Right. I love that shit. Yeah, it's very cool. And you can kind of see that they it doesn't match, you know, from a distance, but they needed it. They needed it to be at the time. So so they believe that other people were involved. Also, they because of how many things had to go right with a kid napping like that, they believe that it was somebody that worked on the staff in one of the houses. It was an inside job. Oh, shit. And they believe that this is a man named Lloyd Gardner, who's a professor at Rutgers. And he has this is his theory. And it's a very

strong interesting theory, strong, strongly interesting. So it's his theory that it's there was somebody inside the house that was helping set it up. And they're the only also the only other people that would have known that the Lindbergh family would have gone to the Hopewell house because they were full time at the other house. So that's like very few people would have known that would have known to go to the unfinished house that they didn't live in yet. The police interviewed a servant who worked at the Englewood estate named Violet Sharp. And they interviewed her twice. She gave contradictory stories between the first and second one. When they went back for the third interview, she runs upstairs drinks silver polish

and dies within minutes. Oh, that sounds chill. Then that's very suspicious, right? And it's like, well, something's going on in this household. Okay, so Lloyd Gardner's theory and maybe other peoples too. And this pulls in some dark shit in Charles Lindbergh's life. He had, okay, so Charles Lindbergh had a sister who died of heart failure. And he started he was a researcher. He was an inventor. He did a bunch of other shit just besides being in the late he was in the Air Force and being a pilot and all that stuff. He did a bunch of other stuff too. He started working with a Nobel Prize winning scientist named Dr. Alexis Carroll. And Dr. Carroll had won the Nobel Prize because he did all this work in vascular surgery. And so Dr. Carroll Lindbergh

went and worked with him as a medical engineer because they were trying to figure out essentially how to build a heart pump to keep people alive if they if they had heart failure. And that's that's the work they did. But the work that they that people didn't know so much about is that Dr. Alexis Carroll was a huge proponent of eugenics. Oh, dear. And if you don't know eugenics was this kind of pseudo scientific belief that got very popular in the 30s in America because of this doctor that we that human beings should be breeding to make that basically genetically superior people are the only people that should reproduce a master race. Yes. And that we should sterilize anybody who's physically or mentally imperfect. It was gaining tons of popularity.

And Dr. Carroll told Lindbergh he was the perfect example of the ubermensch superman that eugenics was aiming toward, which of course, you know, our boy, Charles Lindbergh was like, oh, really, tell me more. I love this idea that I am the one everyone should be like. And I already was the International Superstar. And then you go to meet JP Morgan's fucking daughter, like Jesus Christ, master race. So he becomes this huge proponent of fucking eugenics, which which basically becomes a very shrouded pro Nazi anti Semitic movement. But it just has this super creepy face of like, you know, the American dream is almost how they were trying to market it. It's super gross. Okay, so. So the theory is that Charlie Lindbergh, Charles Lindbergh's first son was not a healthy

baby. The he had a mild form of rickets. There's rickets is the disease in little kids. If they have it bad enough, it basically makes their legs, their knees touch and like their legs are both in there really deformed. Charlie's wasn't that bad. So that's some people argue that this are that this health argument isn't strong enough for like, the case can't be made. But the theory is that they wouldn't have that the family was very secretive about what all these medical problems were. He also didn't have a closed fontanel, which I love that word because that's what Holly Hunter says raising Arizona something about I swear that you mentioned that just now because there's something about this case that has always reminded me of raising Arizona and that they take a ladder

and climb up to the second floor and steal a fucking baby. Yeah, it's kind of exactly that. It's like the comedy version of the story. Yeah. And my little fontanel. Mind his fontanel. I love him so much. Mind his fontanel. So okay. So the fontanel wasn't closed, which is a soft spot on a baby's head and he was two years old. Okay. So it's that's very late for that to be happening. Also, there's a doctor, I think on the conspiracy show, who was talking about that that when the baby when the remains were found, there were deeper inner organs that were missing. And and at the time, I think they the medical examiner, they they wrote it off as well, it's exposure. Yeah. And wild animals have gotten to it. And this woman in the in the conspiracy one goes,

yeah, but you wouldn't be missing. Right. You wouldn't be missing your heart. You wouldn't be missing half of your lung, but not your heart. Right. You wouldn't like that. They're not going to be like, I'm a big fan of lungs. I'm going to take this piece and it's not a pick and choose situation. It doesn't make sense. So they're saying they think this baby had a bunch of surgeries that there was a lot of things wrong. And just nobody knew about it. It was like the secret. And that that the plan was because this was the thing that got done a lot back then that the plan was that it was Charles Lindbergh's idea to kid quote unquote, kidnap the baby, then the baby's missing. And then meanwhile, they can anonymously check that

two year old into an institution and basically institutionalize the child so that he doesn't ever have to the world will never know that his genes are not perfect. And he is not this super bench. Oh, I did not know this. Yeah. Well, this is a theory. So this isn't obviously proven. And this is no, it's true. Take it up with Nova if you don't like it. But but I think it's fascinating because it would there's nothing about that story that makes sense. Like this the mystery of the Lindbergh baby kidnapping is why why would you kill a baby if you got the money for it? What monster would just immediately same night before anyone gets a chance to pay off? Yeah, anything just kill the child. It doesn't make sense. Yeah. And then keep going with it. Yeah. Yeah.

And also then just that those think those behaviors are connected like if you're into eugenics, there's some thing going on inside you that is really gross and really creepy and it continued on. So so basically after the kidnapping and then the body the body being found, the public attention and pressure was so great on the Lindbergh family that they and apparently in one of these stories, they said that there was another kidnapping threat against their baby, John, their new baby. So they they were given diplomatic passports and they traveled under assumed names and they took a boat like they left in the middle of the night and took a boat to England and ended up going to live with family that they had there in in Wales is where they

they ended up going to Wales and then they went off to some island off the coast of France. They were just like tried to get away from everybody. But so they lived in Europe for the next three years. But the next three years was 35 to 38 in fucking Europe. Sure. And the Nazis were coming to power. Yeah. And the Nazis had heard all about how much Charles Lindbergh was into eugenics. And they were like, guess what? We're into eugenics too. Why don't you come and take a tour of the fucking factory? So that basically he came out as a very huge anti semi and a big pro Hitler. Like he was his whole thing was like, I don't know why Hitler has to be so extreme about everything, but they do have great ideas. He was that guy. Yeah. And nobody like I'm not a Nazi,

but yeah, but I do love I love their ideas and they're organized or all that bullshit. Okay, so so basically he gets they he gets asked to return to the United States to be a consultant for the US Air Force because I think the military was like we're about to get into this thing. Yeah. At that point when they come back, they have he and Anne had had five children. Jesus. And they say over the years, his kids only saw him a couple months a year that he was really detached distant father. And then so none of that explains the kidnapping and none of that attributes anything. And there was lots of distant fathers that sure, sure. But then here's another weird twist. In 2003, these people in Germany's German citizens come forward and announce that they are secretly

they were secretly fathered by Charles Lindbergh in the 50s. Seven adult people. So what happened was and this turns out to be fucking true. No way that in the like late 50s, he goes over to Germany and he starts having an affair. He has an affair with a woman named Brigitte Hess Hamer. She has he has three children with Brigitte and then Brigitte's sister, Mariette, who's a painter. He has two kids with her sister. Oh, my God. And then with his private secretary in Europe, he has a her name is Valeska. I just have the name Valeska that he has a son and daughter with her. Oh, my God. Yeah. All seven kids, they're born between 58 and 67. And in 1974, Charles Lindbergh died of lymphoma and 10 days before his death, he wrote letters to all three women, begging them

not to reveal the secret. And so none of them did. And the only way they found out was one of I believe it was Brigitte's daughter. I could be wrong about that, but I believe it was Brigitte's daughter found they all had suspicions because he told them they were all they they met him and like would see him once a year, maybe twice a year over the years. But he said his name was shit. I won't be able to remember it. I don't have it written down. It was something weird like Carl Kent or something like that. Just a weird fake name. That's the only way they knew their father. But then did you get it? Thank you. Oh, Kuru Kent, C-A-R-E-U. Make that shit up, man. It's Kuru Kent would show up and be like, it's me, your dad, Merry Christmas, bye. So Brigitte's

daughter finds love letters and photographs, puts it together, they all get their DNA tested, and then they find out there it's seven children that he fathered was busy. And it goes along with his eugenics thing of I am the I am the one that needs to propagate and have tons of kids. So I'm going to go and have all these affairs and just have kids all over the place. Yeah, I have to. It's for the fucking greater good. It's for the greater good of fucking Germany. So I mean, that's just kind of like an interesting, weird, creepy thing where just like, who is this person? Who is this mystery man that like the world held up is this great human being because he made a solo flight across the Atlantic. The good part about

this horrible story that basically rocked the nation and was the hugest story like it's all anybody talked about for years and years is that the day after this baby was kidnapped, Congress passed a law making kidnapping a capital offense. So that's when they put it into effect that if you take a person over state lines. Oh, right. Yeah, it's a capital offense. And basically that's it. It was and it was called it then and you know, although remains popular at the time it was the crime of the century. That's incredible that they never found any the other two thirds people that it could have been there in if you watch this Nova special, there's a guy on there that and it reminds me of like a lot of the Black Dahlia stuff where there's a guy on there who's

like my father knew a person and he overheard this conversation and it could have been this guy and it could have been this guy. It feels like it would have been that someone related to that the the dude the one third dude. Yeah, brother brother in law. It's always the brother in law. Well, because he was this German immigrant, there was other people on the city block that he lived on that were from the same city that he was from in Germany. And so the landlord of this guy who says his father overheard a conversation that that man's landlord was from the same city as Hotman. So the theory it's very strong theory, but it is just theory and it kind of goes all over because it's basically this guy's father overheard a conversation where they all talked about

Engle they use the word Englewood and they said the name Bruno and then there's pictures and whatever, but it's it nothing is conclusive. So I didn't include it. They never found the month the other money, right? Like no one ever spent it. Well, but there's the one guy that they suspected one of the two people that they really this guy knew and they suspected took a well at the time would have been a $70,000 world cruise. Holy shit with his wife and there's pictures of him on the cruise and they came he came back from Europe after Hotman was was found guilty. So basically they took a cruise, got the fuck out of Dodge, went around the world on a boat, and then when they heard that they got the guy and they were sending him to the lecture chair,

they're like, okay, we can come back. That was him. I think it was him. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. It's but the it's a very sinister and and definitely unproven, but the idea that he just wanted this not perfect baby out of the house is just so or maybe what we're going to do is like take take the baby out, put him in a facility, something accidentally happened and he died. Maybe they were going to replace him with like a adopted perfect baby that they were going to say with him. Oh, maybe, you know, could be. I mean, when you see there's lots of vid, they have lots of home video and these black and white videos of this baby. It's not like this baby looks like anything is wrong. Yeah. But I feel

like if he was under this pressure to be the perfect human being and that that's the whole theory of eugenics is like perfection, perfection, then you can't have a baby that has turned in knees, rickets, you know, like that is even in any way developmentally slow. Yeah. Maybe the baby that they found that was dead wasn't Charlie. Maybe they put Charlie in a fucking institution, killed some other baby to be like, nope, Charlie's dead. And then they could like have this sick baby that they visit whenever they want. Maybe. That's I think that's it. You've done it. I did it. You know what I mean? You've acted in you've outed another twist. Yes. Well, but that basically they did it. Yeah. That's even darker because then they're killing a baby.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean, the whole thing is it would be nice to have some answers. Let's DNA test that shit. Go on genealogy.net. Test that shit. Right. Get on there. Well, fuck, that was great. Oh, thanks. We I bet you guys have never heard the word latter more in your life. Oh my gosh, you guys, this has been so much fun. Thanks so much to Karen and Georgia and the exactly right team for bringing us great content every week. And thank you for listening. I'm Kyle Russell. You can catch me on Instagram at Kiki with Kiki. And this is the end. Bye. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?