My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 298 - Feelings In Real Time
Episode Date: October 28, 2021This week, Georgia and Karen cover the mysterious death of Edgar Allan Poe and the harrowing case of Cyntoia Brown. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Not...ice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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This is exactly right.
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Hello.
And welcome to my favorite murder.
That's Georgia Hardstar.
That's Karen Kilgariff.
And this is a true crime comedy podcast where we cover cases, true crime stories, recent,
historical, and we also make a live observations about the world around us.
Oh, I like that description.
Thank you.
It's from a play.
Is your monologue?
Are you auditioning?
Yes.
This is, I have one dramatic and one comedic.
I've got a lot to do that.
Oh, yeah.
That's what I did all in, I was a theater major before I flunked out of college.
And I have, I never told you the story of you had to audition.
You got in as a theater major, but then you had to audition for all the directors of all
the fall season plays and musicals.
So you had to go and do a monologue, House of Blue Leaves.
Thanks for asking.
I was going to.
And then you had to sing a song.
Oh, God.
So I went and got the sheet music.
Good is sitting alone.
Are you serious?
No.
Oh, man.
I was hoping I was right.
You were feeling the psychic.
Yeah.
No, I tried to sing what I did for love from, I believe, a chorus line.
Oh, yeah.
I went and made my sister drive me over to Tower Music in Sacramento and got the sheet
music.
Wow.
But I didn't play the piano or know anyone who did.
So I just gave the piano player at the place, the sheet music, and then he, you know, played
the first couple chords for me and looked like, is that okay?
And I said, let's do high.
Can you make it lower?
And he goes, no, I can't transpose all of this right here sitting here.
And I was like, oh, okay.
Oh, I get it.
So I was like, all right, well.
And so it was like, kiss today, goodbye.
It starts there.
And then at the end, it's like, won't forget, can't regret.
And it's so fucking high that I started laughing as I was singing it.
And I was like up on my toes and like my shoulders high as possible, they were all fucking laughing
their asses off.
So it was a comedic.
It was, it turned out, it wasn't supposed to be comedic.
It was supposed to be very moving and beautiful.
But and I also sang like Annie, I just, it was imitating Andrea McCartle, which is how
I learned how to sing.
So, uh, you know, I mean, I didn't get a part, but man, I was hoping you get the lead role
just out of pity.
Not pity.
Karen can improvise.
Look, she can take a bad situation, turn it on its head.
I turned to that piano player.
I said, amateur.
And then I turned around and said, let's do this thing.
What about you?
Did you ever audition for plays?
I auditioned for like a student film in the back of that Cuban coffee shop on Sunset and
Silver Lake.
El Trapical.
Yes.
When I was like 19 had the shittiest headshot.
It was like resume.
And so I didn't know how to write a resume and B didn't have one for acting in any fucking
way.
So you lied.
I don't even think I said I forgot my resume.
Smart.
Perfect.
And there's no such thing as it.
I can't email to you.
No.
There's no email.
It's the nineties.
It's the fucking nineties.
Did a monologue from 200 cigarettes.
Yeah.
I don't know.
What did you watch the movie and write down what someone said?
I did exactly that.
I think it was a Martha Plimpton quote.
She did a whole thing when no one came to her party.
I'm so sick of 199 cigarettes.
That kind of stuff?
I got 199 cigarette problems.
And you're one more.
And you're one extra.
And that's why they call it 200 cigarettes.
You turned to the rest of the cafe.
Yeah.
200 cigarettes.
That's right.
It's 1999.
And here we go.
I didn't get the part, obviously.
Did you get to be in it at all?
No.
I think they were like, oh, she's an amateur.
Oh, she tried.
That little thing.
And it turned out that director was Quentin Tarantino.
So I just did extra.
I became an extra instead.
You were just going to get in there and work your way up?
That's right.
And here you are.
Welcome.
And BD, thank you, took me to 40 to get to do it.
And I did it.
Yeah.
That showbiz, baby.
Yeah.
It's the middle age when it really hits the good stuff.
Yeah.
Because you're not a stupid idiot anymore.
Sweet.
Sweet heart.
I mean that in the sweetest way.
But you're a stupid idiot right now when you're like 35 and lower.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I don't think you are.
No.
Shit.
Sorry, Steven.
Hey, Steven's in the room with us.
Steven's here in the room.
Hello.
I'm very excited to be here.
It's so weird.
It's our first time as a threesome back together since the COVID started.
Yeah.
It feels good.
It feels good to me too, Steven.
Thanks for coming up.
Of course.
I mean, it's almost like I purposely forgot my equipment just to get, I needed to figure
out a way to get Steven in the room so I forgot pretty much all my equipment.
You did it.
I did.
It was very sweet of you.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
She cares about you.
Very nice.
Anything to go over before we start?
Yeah.
I have a couple of quick cold case updates that two does have been identified both from
cases that we've done.
So one of the victims, the unnamed victims of Alaska serial killer Robert Hansen, who
you covered, has been identified.
The Baker, right?
The Baker Butcher.
The Butcher Baker, yeah.
Her name is Miss Robin Pelkey, so I'm glad she has her name back.
And then another one is one of Gacy's victims.
I just saw that article.
Yeah.
I have on the Fall Line podcast, Instagram, that his name is Francis Wayne Alexander,
and he's from Chicago, Illinois, and he's finally been after all this fucking time.
It looks like in 1978 is when he was discovered and he's finally been identified.
Wow.
I know.
Love that they were still working on that.
Yeah.
They got it done.
It's so important to give these does their names back and their history and their identity.
So their families actually have at least an end to the story and a way to process their
grief.
Totally.
That's thanks.
That's good news.
Yeah.
In how horrible.
In tragedy, Bill.
I mean, yeah.
How it always is, it seems like.
Yeah.
You have anything?
Good news?
Good news or bad news?
Well, I have to say that I started watching a series.
And I've talked to other people about this too.
There's something now the addiction left over from quarantine is I want a TV series with
several seasons so that I have something to return to at night like a ritual almost.
Yeah.
Like a familiar, reliable, relaxing ritual.
Ritual.
Got it.
And I have been watching a lot of comedies because I've needed it.
I found this one that I love so much and it's called W1A.
It's a BBC series that has three seasons.
It stars Hugh Bonneville, the dad from Downton Abbey.
Okay.
That they call him dad.
Joe, what am I saying?
It has.
Wait, sorry.
I actually printed up this cast because it really is a cast of like all the great British
actors.
Yeah.
And it's about executives at the BBC.
You know, it's very satirical, but very hilarious.
And one of the people in it is an actress named Monica Dolan and I know that name.
Yes.
Because she played Rose West in Appropriate Adult that fucking unbelievably disturbing.
It's about the Fred and Rose West that Dominic.
I want to say Monahan, but that's not the right name.
The guy from The Wire who's who nobody could believe was actually British.
I love when you keep telling me things as if I'm going to get it.
You were so generous to me as if I've ever gotten a name in my fucking life when we've
done this.
And you.
And also it's always, I'm sure to you, obscure where it's the stars of British television
and you're like, uh-huh, I try to play along.
But here's the thing about, okay, so Monica Dolan plays Rose West in Appropriate Adult.
If you haven't seen Appropriate Adult, it is the true crime story of when Fred West got
arrested for the murders that the West, the West as a couple committed.
They murdered, I think it was over 10 young women, horrible, horrible story and they buried
them in their house near, in the backyard, horrifying.
So Monica Dolan plays Rose West and she is so disturbing and so horrifying, like you
don't forget it.
And she ended up, she won a BAFTA for best supporting actress for that role.
But in W1A she plays, she plays the senior communications officer named Tracy Pritchard
who's Welsh and she starts every sentence by going, I'm not trying to be funny or anything.
And it is so hilarious, she's super serious, but she is so funny.
And there's all these other people in it that you know from all of your favorite British
television.
Me, W1A?
Okay.
It's a great workplace comedy, but it's also very much like, it's so culturally British
that it felt like I was on...
A cozy Pendleton, wrapping yourself up in a cozy Pendleton.
In British culture and accents.
That's right.
Yeah.
I have a show to suggest totally not funny and completely on a left-hand turn signal
with a signal.
With no signal LA style?
Yeah.
Dope sick on Hulu.
Wow.
It's based off this book that's true, but this is like, this is like dramatized and
it's Michael fucking Keaton who's like so incredible.
It's the story of how OxyContin was fucking tricked in to the mainstream and how evil
the Sackler family is and how fucking evil like it is that OxyContin was even fucking
introduced into the society.
And so it's all, it's Caitlin Devere, who I'm such a huge fan of, and Michael fucking
Keaton.
Oh, and fucking Peter Sarsgard with the worst toupee I've ever fucking seen.
I mean, it's distracting.
Fun.
Great.
Just let the man be bald.
Like, it's sexy.
Is he bald?
In this photo he is.
Oh, yes.
Okay.
I find it very sexy.
Obviously, my husband is without hair.
So we, we over here at the My Favorite Burner podcast are number one fan of bald men.
That's right.
And people across the nation.
When you start turning down guys because they're losing their hair, because they're short,
you're missing out on a whole population of good people.
You know, you are a dummy.
Me?
No.
Oh.
That sounded like you disagreed with me.
I was doing a callback to you calling people under 35 dummies.
Maybe I'm just reading too much Reddit.
We're just like, you know what you are, a dummy.
That's what it sounds like.
Sorry.
This is another left turn with no signal.
We refuse to let people know where we're going.
Dope sick.
Dope sick.
I'm going to watch that.
Excellent.
Sad.
Depressing.
Good.
Yeah.
There's so much, there's so much of that out there these days.
It's sad.
But you know what I'm going to switch this to a book that I've read recently.
My therapist recommended it.
I told my therapist I was having lots of feelings real time, which I'm not used to and do not
approve of or like in any way.
And she was like, oh, it's so good, it's so good to hear.
It sounds like.
Is it?
Yeah.
She's like, oh, your vulnerability is catching up with you.
It's very good.
It's going to keep you in the moment.
She goes, here's the book you have to read.
It's called The Whole Language, The Power of Extravagant Tenderness by Gregory Doyle.
So Father Gregory Doyle is the priest who started the Homeboy Industries Foundation.
It's the most successful gang intervention program in the world.
And he started it right there in Boyle Heights in Los Angeles.
And a lot of people in LA kind of know his work or are even slightly familiar with the
kind of work he's been doing.
You have to read or the audio book is even better because Father Gregory is the one that's
narrating it.
So he's telling his own stories of just, and they go from, oh my God, it's like, I just
was crying the entire time because they're these beautiful stories of like people trying
to turn their lives around, redemption, forgiveness, people who are in rival gangs working side
by side and putting their differences aside and putting their lives together.
And it's just beautiful.
I couldn't believe how amazing this book was.
So it sounds like a lot of hope, which I think we need right now.
For sure.
If you're in a especially sensitive place or even in a dark place, I promise you, listen
to this book.
It's so great to hear him talking.
Yeah, okay, I'm going to download it.
It just gives you really an amazing sense of perspective.
And also, you just, it's all these stories about people who are trying, who are just
trying against all odds and succeeding.
And it's really beautiful.
Okay, I'm fucking on it.
It's great.
Say the name of it again.
It's called the whole language, the power of extravagant tenderness.
And it's just kind of about, you know, he is a Catholic priest, obviously he's a Jesuit
priest.
But he's, his whole thing is just kind of about God as a loving, accepting God and not
this kind of weird way people who are quote unquote religious like to use the concept
of God against each other and to other people and to keep them out and how the point of
all of it is to include people and let them redeem themselves.
It's very, it's really eye-opening, especially in a lot of the stuff that we talk about.
It's so easy to be up on like, you know, our high horse or weigh the fuck away from any
truth of what people's lives are like when they get into crime.
Right.
Although we're usually talking about serial killers, which is a completely different thing.
Yeah, I think joining a gang is so much more nuanced than I think what people expected
and think and have these judgments over it.
It's really coming from a place of trauma and just options, hard lives and yeah, yeah.
So I love that as someone who's not even religious.
I love, I love that I love the AA kind of thing of you have to find a higher power doesn't
have to be God.
I think so many people need that and good for them and who am I to argue that?
Right.
Hope, it's so important.
Yeah, it really is.
Especially I think it's like the whole vibe behind this book is really moving and really
kind of feels like it actually could change things.
It's really cool.
Rad.
Speaking of changing things, I want to change the subject and talk about exactly right.
I really hate that segue so much.
You love it.
No.
It's corn ball.
Come on.
You're a dummy.
You meant it that time.
That's what it sounds like when you mean it.
And I should have known.
I should have known.
That's all.
Nick Terry put up a new MFM animated.
It's Halloween based.
It's fucking hilarious.
It's based off of a hometown episode.
I mean, go to our YouTube exactly right media channel to check it out and all the fucking
Nick Terry's are up there too.
Yes.
Oh, and also we have now in the merch store, we have magnetic poetry kits and I'd never
before has a magnetic poetry kit had the word fucking it so many times.
I apologize to everyone in my family and my extended family.
But it's hilarious.
So we're getting it for Christmas.
Denton sent me one and I was just like, this is what kind of poems do you write with the
word fucking it that many times?
And all our animals names are in it too, which is great.
And I like the bunch of the quotes up that you know, that you know and love from the
podcaster in there.
It's pretty funny.
I think you could do some and then tag us on Instagram when you do post something.
And then the most exciting thing that we have to announce to you is we're starting a brand
new, it's basically a new mini-sode and it's the new series Celebrity Hometowns.
So basically we get our famous friends to come on and tell us their hometowns and we
kick it off with NBC Dateline's legendary host, Josh Mankiewicz.
Josh Mankiewicz is so rad.
He's totally a friend of the family and so he's so fun to talk to.
He's fascinating, the story he tells on this mini-sode is freaking awesome.
We could have talked to him for hours about it.
And we have some great ones coming up.
We have a bunch of really cool people.
So the newest Celebrity Hometown, we started in your feed yesterday and we'll continue
through the end of the year.
We're super excited.
It's all on Wednesdays and yeah, what a fun.
It's just an extra episode, really an extra mini-sode.
So be sure to rate, review and subscribe to these that really helps us out.
And also follow exactly right on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook for updates on all of
our shows.
All right.
Business portion.
Boom.
Done.
Boom.
I think I should pee real quick.
Do it.
Are you mad I called you a dummy?
No.
I think you're a dummy.
We're calling you a dummy.
Perfect.
Now we're even.
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It's you.
Great.
Well, here we go.
As you know, this weekend is Spooky Halloween.
Trademark.
Trademark.
So, I thought it'd be fun to do a spooky themed story.
Yeah.
So, this is the mysterious death of Edgar Allan Poe.
Whoa.
Yeah.
Nice.
He's even just got visible chills.
Yeah.
You know about this, his mysterious death?
Was it the thing where he buried his heart under the floor and then he kept hearing it
beating?
No, that's a different, that's another story.
That's a different author's death.
The sources I use today are the Smithsonian Magazine, the Edgar Allan Poe House and Museum,
the Edgar Allan Poe Society of Baltimore, a PBS American Masters documentary, which
I highly recommend, and the Poe Museum.
So, as you know, there's so much out there about Edgar Allan Poe.
There are multiple biographies about him that are over 600 pages long, so there's a lot
to say about him, and I have 600 pages of info about him right now.
Perfect.
Let me sit back.
Settle it.
No, I'm just going to go over some basics and then get to the mysterious death.
So, let me tell you, let me tell you a little bit about Edgar Allan Poe.
Okay.
On January 19th, 1809, Edgar, which is a great fucking name, it should come back, don't you
think?
Nope.
Okay.
Is born to parents Eliza and David Poe.
Eliza was a well-known actress at the time, and they have three kids together, and then
David abandons her and the family, which is shitty.
And then by the time Edgar is almost three, his beloved mother dies of tuberculosis at
just 24 years old.
Oh, no.
I know.
So, number one in him being a macabre, right?
Yeah.
First hit.
Luckily, an, quote, elite upper class couple, John and Francis Allan, take Edgar in.
Hence Edgar Allan Poe.
Got it.
He adores his really kind foster mom, but his foster dad is a fucking hard-ass dick
who never really accepts Edgar as his, like, kin.
He moves with them to Richmond, Virginia, and his name becomes Edgar Allan Poe, but
he doesn't actually ever use the name Allan himself because of his hatred of his foster
dad.
So actually, when he writes letters and signs them, it's Edgar Poe, which is interesting.
So he's intelligent and rebellious.
He begins writing poetry at a young age.
By 17, he's engaged to marry a woman named Elmyra Royster, but he's also set to attend
the University of Virginia in Charlottesville.
Elmyra swears she'll wait for Poe to finish college, you know, as you do when you're young
and in love.
So he heads off to college and soon finds out he doesn't have enough money to pay for
college because his stepdad's like, or his foster dad's like, fuck you.
Why should I fucking pay for it?
So Edgar Allan Poe goes into gambling debt trying to earn money to pay for college.
He isn't able to earn enough.
He becomes like creditors coming after him, bad people coming after him.
So he moves back to Richmond.
Once he's home, Elmyra, he finds out and broken her promise.
So yet another heartbreak.
She was engaged to someone else.
Heartbroken Poe moves to Boston and there he eventually publishes his first book of
poetry, Tamerlane and Other Poems.
After a two-year stint in the army and even joining and quitting West Point for a while.
At 22, he moves to Baltimore, did I already say that, where he lives with relatives including
his aunt Maria Clem and her daughter, Virginia.
He's actually happy here finding a real sense of family in his relatives.
During his four years in Baltimore in the early 1830s, he switches from poems to short
stories.
So this is the gothic like Victorian era where the culture of death is pretty normal.
It's romanticized.
People were dropping dead all the time from sudden illness or slowly withering away from
TB and women died in childbirth regularly and so did their babies.
So it's a time period where death is really the norm and you see a lot of those portraits
of dead people before they're buried, those creepy ones we all see.
Memento mores, so little mementos of the dead, like you get a ring that has the dead person's
braided hair in it, which you can still find on Etsy.
And elaborate gothic cemeteries become the norm.
So there's that macabre feeling in the air and so stories that he writes that are super
macabre just flourish.
So Poe publishes his first horror story, which leads to him accepting an offer to be a writer
for the periodicals, the Southern literary messenger in Richmond, in which he kind of
gets to do whatever he wants.
And once he settled in Richmond, Poe's aunt that he had lived with Maria Clem and cousin
Virginia move in with him.
Does he marry his cousin?
Sure.
Is she 13 and he's 27?
Oh, yeah.
Of course, all that happens.
What a time.
What?
What a time for 13 year olds.
So in 1837, Poe leaves the messenger, moves to Philadelphia, publishes many of his famous
pieces at this point, like The Telltale Heart, The Pit and the Pendulum, The Murders in the
Rue Morgue, which is the world's first modern detective story.
In 1845, Poe publishes his most famous work, The Raven.
It's an overnight success and he becomes a household name.
He's invited to take on literary clients and give lectures and he's the first American
writer to live completely off the money he makes writing.
Wow.
I know.
He becomes like a famous fucking author, obviously.
That's what I just said.
According to the Poe Museum, quote, Poe wrote in many genres, but his contribution to horror
is what makes him famous today.
Poe revolutionized the genre.
He was one of the first to involve deep, intuitive, psychological horror.
Sadly, two years after The Raven is published, Poe's wife, 15-year-old Virginia, I know,
dies of tuberculosis.
He never recovers from her death, having lost the person he relies on for mental and emotional
support.
So all these women in his life, his foster mother from before had died, just all these
tragedies in his life.
He moves back to Richmond and there he starts, remember old Elmira who had a name?
Yeah.
He starts seeing her again.
Oh.
What happened?
What happened?
They both were widowed.
Oh.
Okay.
So they were like, hey, what's up?
Yeah.
Let's rekindle this thing.
In 1849, they get engaged.
On September 27th, 1849, Poe leaves Richmond, heads to New York.
He's going to grab his Aunt Maria Clem, who he still, of course, loves, and bring her
back to Richmond for the wedding.
The day after leaving Richmond, Poe's boat arrives in Baltimore, however, he doesn't
ever make it to Philadelphia or New York because tragedy strikes, mysterious tragedy.
How does that sound?
Mysterious tragedy befalls him.
On October 3rd, a local election day, a man named Joseph Walker finds 40-year-old Poe
lying in a gutter outside of Baltimore polling site slash Tavern.
At this time, Taverns are used as polling locations, and voters are rewarded for their
vote with alcohol.
Hey.
I mean, get into the poll any way you can.
And then shots.
Shots for everybody.
Shot, shot, shot.
According to the Smithsonian Magazine, when Walker finds him, Poe is, quote, delirious,
semi-conscious, and unable to move.
And instead of his usual, like, fancy black wool suit, he's dressed in shabby, second-hand
clothes, including a coat that's ripped, stained, faded, and ill-fitting, his pants are in the
same condition, and his shoes are worn out at the heels, almost like someone switched
his clothing on him.
To top it all off, Poe is wearing a tattered palm leaf hat for some reason, which he's
never wore.
Walker asks Poe if there's anyone who he can call to help him, and Poe probably call
on.
He hands him a cell phone and says, I am a time traveler, tell no one of this exchange.
Poe gets enough energy to say the name Joseph E. Snodgrass, another great name.
So Walker calls him, he's a magazine editor who has, like, medical training as well.
Snodgrass arrives and sees that Poe is in bad shape.
Poe's taken by carriage to the hospital, he's delirious, he's in and out of consciousness
for the next few days, and sometimes he's alert, sometimes he's just screaming into
the air, so delirious.
However, he has never alert enough to tell anyone what led him to be wearing different
clothes and be in the gutter, and on October 7th, Poe dies.
But what caused his death, Karen?
It seems like no one really knows for sure.
In articles from the time of his death, there's only one reference to a cause.
The Baltimore Clipper reported that he died from congestion of the brain, basically swelling
of the brain, and according to the Edgar Allen Poe Society of Baltimore, death certificates
weren't required at the time, and it doesn't see that anyone filed one for Poe, so swelling
of the brain is commonly ruled as the cause of death for someone when the examiner was
unsure of what really happened.
So yeah, cool technology.
With all that being said, there are many people who refuse to believe swelling killed the
famous mystery writer.
Instead, they believe the truth lies in one of at least 26 published theories.
I'm going to cover every single one.
Do it.
I'm going to sit back.
I'm going to cover a few of them.
Many theories involve alcohol, so it was well documented that Poe couldn't handle his liquor.
He'd get shit-faced staggering off just one drink.
However, any theorists blaming alcohol consider that months before he died, he also became
big in the temperance movement, so he wasn't a drinker.
So him having died from alcohol seems unlikely, but the most likely reason people started assuming
Poe died from alcohol abuse was due to this dude, Joseph Snodgrass.
He used Poe's death as a way to spread the temperance movement himself, so he traveled
the country and gave talks where he exaggerated the story of Poe's death and blamed it on
alcohol.
The people who were with Poe on his final days agree that alcohol was involved, but it's
unsure of how he got to that point since he didn't drink.
And it also fails to explain his five-day disappearance or the fact that he had his
clothes changed.
So samples of Poe's hair were tested recently to see if he was drinking before his death,
and results showed that he had low levels of lead in his body, meaning that he was most
likely sober when he died.
Then one of the first theories to stray from alcohol came from biographer E. Oakes Smith.
In 1867, she wrote an article where she theorized that he was the victim of a beating.
She called that ruffians maybe beat him up to avenge that he possibly had beat up a woman
himself, but there's no proof of that at all.
And then there are other theories around.
Medical problems, cholera is one of the big ones.
Also when Poe's hair was tested for lead, scientists looked for mercury as well, and
they found that he had elevated levels of mercury in the months before he died, which
makes sense because in July of 1849, after he was exposed to a cholera epidemic in Philadelphia,
a doctor prescribed him like mercury chloride, which would have given mercury poisoning.
It feels like back then, with a mystery like this, there are so many things that could
kill you.
Legit.
Legit theories.
Yeah.
Like wasn't there, there was a thing where like the color green, they would dye dresses
with the color green that would poison you if you wore the dress or wallpaper that was
a certain color green.
I don't know if that was in the United States or in England, but I mean, like it just seemed
like the mercury was like, oh, do you have a toothache here?
Yeah.
It's also the character of the mad hatter.
There were mad hatters because of what was it, the glue they used to make hats.
Yeah.
Made them go fucking insane.
Yeah.
It wasn't the safest era.
There wasn't a lot of workplace safety protocols.
No.
Is your baby crying or lethargic?
Give him some cocaine.
Cocaine.
For babies.
And it would also explain the tests that would explain the hallucinations in delirium before
he died.
But some say it's possible that Poe had a brain tumor.
So 26 years after he died, Poe's coffin was dug up so it could be relocated to a different
part of the cemetery.
His coffin was in bad shape.
And so when the workers tried to move it, the coffin fell apart, which you know, they
kind of probably did on purpose because some scientists gave him some money to be like,
we want to, we want to look at his body.
Yeah.
And then he dropped his coffin.
Then that makes me think of, did you watch the most recent season of I think you should
leave?
It's Tim Rollins.
Yes.
He has the coffin drops.
Coffin drops.
Coffin flops.
Right?
It's the reality show.
The like prank reality show where bodies just fall out of the bottom of the coffin.
Coffin flops or coffin drops, Stephen?
And why are they all naked?
Yeah, they're all naked.
They're so insane.
So stupid.
It's coffin flop.
Coffin flop.
Coffin flop.
So okay, so his remains fall out.
Super fun.
And when a skull was picked up, there's a mass rolling around inside of it.
And at first they were like, oh, this is the brain, but no, the brain's like the first
thing to deteriorate.
And so one doctor speculated that the mass could have been like a calcified tumor.
Still, it just seems like that, like from afar, a theory like that after with a body
that had been buried for a while isn't super reliable.
You know what?
A mass, a hard mass, also called a rock.
Yes.
Sometimes.
I mean.
Other theories include tuberculosis, pneumonia, epilepsy, diabetes, even rabies.
But the most sinister theory for this spooky Halloween is that Poe was murdered.
This comes from the author, John Evangelist Walsh, who believes that the brothers of Poe's
fiancee, Elmira, killed him.
He thinks that Poe did make it to Philadelphia, but was ambushed by Elmira's brothers who
told them not to marry their sister.
So he was so scared that he disguised himself in a new outfit to like thwart them and hid
in Philadelphia and then went back to Richmond so he could marry Elmira.
But in Baltimore, her brothers found him, beat the shit out of him and forced him to
get shit-faced, knowing that he couldn't drink.
And that's what led to him dying in a gutter.
So.
That's very involved.
It is very complicated.
Yeah.
But it would, yeah, no.
The most commonly accepted theory is that Poe was a victim of cooping.
Now, this to me is the fucking, I've always just been so troubled by this idea.
I've never heard of this.
Okay, cooping, according to the Smithsonian Magazine, was an actual method of voter fraud
practiced by gangs in the 19th century.
So this is a known thing that would happen.
And he was found outside of a tavern, which was a polling place.
So basically, they take a victim.
The victim would be kidnapped, forced to go vote.
And then they'd get their reward of a drink.
They would make them drink that.
And they would change them, the guy, and do a disguise so he could go back and vote again.
And so these would be hired by politicians to make sure they got more votes, essentially.
But they would force them to drink every time, which doesn't, I mean, just, that doesn't
seem like it.
But that's what they did.
It's like, undisputed.
Well, you know what it makes me think of is like, then if the person's drunk, they're
automatically, there's not a lot of empathy.
It's the same thing as when you've heard of stories where people get kidnapped and then
they shoot them up with drugs.
So it's like, well, you're a drug user, so what you say doesn't have any merit.
Right.
Or you're more pliable and less able to do whatever they say.
And yeah.
He's more easily confused.
Yeah.
I mean, that seems right on the money with all the details of what you've described.
Exactly.
And it was a known thing.
It wasn't just a made up, you know, theory.
So many coping victims would consume tons of alcohol since they were voting multiple times.
And once the Coopers were done with the voters, they just let them wander off completely shit-faced.
So if he had more than one drink, he was totally screwed.
So he could have died from alcohol poisoning because he had been kidnapped by Coopers.
Many think this theory is plausible because the gutter was, he was found and was outside
the polling site, and it was a polling site where Coopers were known to bring victims,
not to mention Poe was found on an election day.
So but in the end, Poe's cause of death, like what most people think is that it was swelling
of the brain.
But who knows why, you know?
And it seems that many people want Poe's death to be mysterious, you know, because
of his work.
And he's still an icon.
His story has completely changed the literary word and dying from brain swelling just isn't
that romantic.
Yeah.
For someone as legendary as Ed Grail and Poe.
But one last mystery, just to keep it on that note.
The attending physician, Dr. John J. Morgan said that the night before he died in his
delirium, he called repeatedly out for someone named Reynolds.
To this day, the identity of this person named Reynolds remains a mystery.
Ooh.
This is the mysterious death of Edgar Allen Poe.
Wow, that's good.
Yeah.
I knew nothing of any of it.
Oh.
You're such a literary master.
Yeah.
Clearly.
I mean, no, that's fascinating.
Yeah.
Also just that idea of like all now we have to add Cooping to all the ways you could die
back then.
What a shitty way to die.
What a shitty, yeah, what a time, just roving gangs, you know, in their fucking cool clothes.
Yeah.
It's like, was it Gangs of New York or it's just like, the rabbits, where are the rabbits?
Where are the rabbits?
That's a great movie.
Well, my story has nothing to do with your story whatsoever.
I can't connect it or do an interesting segue.
Good.
There it was.
Yeah.
But it is, it's a story most people have heard about, but I didn't know any details
of.
So this is the case of Centoya Brown.
Okay.
Here's for this Wikipedia, an NPR article by Bobby Allen, a New York Times article by
Christine Houser, Time article by Katie Riley, Lainey Barron wrote an article for Time magazine
or time.com Sharon Lynn Pruitt wrote an article for Oxygen, Mahita Ghaznan wrote an article
for Time, Rebecca Seals wrote a BBC news article, Samantha Max wrote an article for the WP
LN news, Nashville Public Radio, and John Garcia wrote an article for the Tennessean.
And all of those articles have very long titles.
So I figured I would just cite this source and the journalist and then you can go and
look this up.
Okay.
So this starts with the murder of Johnny Allen.
So on the night of August 6, 2004, 16 year old Centoya Brown stands in the parking lot
of a sonic drive-in in Nashville, Tennessee.
When she's approached by 43 year old Johnny Michael Allen, Allen is an army veteran turned
real estate agent who also serves as a youth pastor at the Lakewood Baptist Church, where
he's also started a homeless ministry.
But tonight he is propositioning a 16 year old girl for sex.
I think I know this one.
Yeah.
And Allen asks Centoya if she's hungry and if she's quote up for any action.
They agree on a price of $150 and Centoya gets into his truck.
But instead of going to a local motel, which is the standard practice, and in fact, Centoya
lived at a motel with her pimp and boyfriend, instead, Allen takes Centoya to his home.
And once they're there, he shows her his very large gun collection telling her that he used
to be a sharpshooter in the army.
She will later go on to say that she felt that this display was very threatening.
But that's impossible to prove because she's the only one that was there.
The two eat together, they watch TV, and then according to Centoya, Allen takes her to his
bedroom where he quote grabs her in between her legs real hard.
So basically he initiates sex very violently.
She already feels threatened.
It then turns violent.
He reaches under the bed for something.
She will later go on to testify.
And Centoya believes that what he's reaching for is a gun.
So she pulls a 40 caliber handgun out of her purse and she shoots him in the back of the
head.
Oh my God, she's just 16.
16 years old.
So she then grabs the cash that's in his wallet.
She takes two of his guns, jumps in his truck and drives away.
She gets to a Walmart parking lot and ditches his truck there.
She then hitches a ride with someone back to her home at the Intown Suites Motel.
And that's where her pimp, Gary L. McLaughlin, whose nickname is cutthroat, is waiting.
So the next morning, August 7, 2004, the police come to the motel room and Centoya is arrested
and charged with first degree murder, aggravated robbery, and a legal possession of a handgun.
Three months later, on November 14, 2004, a judge rules that 16 year old Centoya can
be tried as an adult, claiming that she is too dangerous to be tried in the juvenile
court system.
So Centoya never denies killing Alan, but she argues that she did it in self-defense.
The prosecution claims that Centoya planned to rob and kill him all along.
Their first piece of evidence is the forensics report that shows Alan's body was positioned
laying on the bed and that his hands were interlocked behind his head, which contradicts
her claim that he was reaching under the bed when she shot him.
The prosecution also introduces Centoya's August 14, 2004 psych evaluation into evidence.
It states that while at the Western Mental Health Institute, Centoya asked to call her
adoptive mother, but the nurse would not let her.
And then, according to this nurse's account, Centoya responds by leaping over the desk,
having this nurse by her hair, hitting her, and saying, quote, I shot that man in the
back of the head one time, bitch, I'm gonna shoot you in the back of the head three times.
I'd love to hear your blood spatter on the wall, end quote.
And another hospital employee corroborates this story in court.
So they also present allegations that Centoya told a fellow inmate that she killed Alan,
quote, just to see how it felt to kill somebody, and that she even wrote a note confessing
to the crime.
A forensic document examiner tells the court that they believe the note was indeed written
by Centoya's hand.
But the defense paints a much different picture.
They argue that Johnny Allen was not the good man of faith that his friends and family believed
him to be, but that he was a predator who exploited and threatened underage sex workers.
They claim her shooting was a clear cut act of self-defense.
So the defense has several witnesses whose experiences with Alan corroborate this dark
side of him.
One woman who once went on a date with Alan testifies that after accepting an invitation
to go back to his home, he began to kiss her.
And when she told him she didn't want to have sex, he raped her.
The defense also has a story from a 17-year-old girl who says that Alan frequented the restaurant
where she worked, but he was so inappropriate and basically creepy with the young waitresses
that she and her coworkers would argue over who had to go to his table.
And once he left her a note on the back of a business card saying, quote, you're gorgeous,
I'd love to take you out sometime, so let me know.
The judge, however, doesn't let this witness testify in front of the jury, calling her
testimony irrelevant to the case.
I'm sorry.
Toya Brown does not take the stand during her own trial.
And when it ends in August of 2006, since Toya Brown has found guilty of first-degree
murder and aggravated robbery.
So in October of 2006, she's sentenced to life with the possibility of parole after
serving at least 51 years.
So the possibility of parole when she's 67.
She's placed in a maximum security prison, the Tennessee prison for women in Nashville.
So we'll go into her background a little bit.
Sintoya Brown was born on January 29, 1988 in Fort Campbell, Kentucky, to a 16-year-old
young mother.
And her mother's birth was the result of a rape that her mother, Sintoya's grandmother,
had endured.
Oh my God.
So she had a hard life from the beginning.
Sintoya's mother struggles with alcoholism and addiction to crack cocaine.
And she drank while she was pregnant with Sintoya, giving Sintoya feel alcohol syndrome.
Because Sintoya's father is not around and because her mother is in and out of prison,
Sintoya is put up for adoption.
So she's placed in a loving, supportive home, but the trauma of her early childhood is more
than she or her adoptive family can manage.
As a minor, Sintoya commits various crimes and she's taken into the custody of the Department
of Children's Services from April 2001 through September 2003.
She's placed in various youth development centers around Tennessee and she almost always
runs away.
She's found, returned.
And then finally, she eventually just escapes entirely.
And by August 2004, she's living on the streets of Nashville.
And that's when she meets cutthroat, a pimp with a long criminal history of his own, including
drug use, assault, and rape.
He claims Sintoya as his own.
He beats and rapes her into submission and then traffics her for sex as a minor while
the two live together in their motel room at the in-town suites.
Okay.
So while Sintoya is in prison for this murder, she earns her GED through an in-prison schooling
program in March of 2005.
She's also described as a model prisoner.
And then in 2010, or between 2010 and 2011, a documentary filmmaker named Daniel Berman
contacts Sintoya.
He's been following her case since her arrest and he wants to profile her for a PBS special.
So she agrees.
And in March of 2011, the film Me Facing Life, Sintoya's story, airs and it gives Sintoya
the chance to present her side of the story to the public.
The documentary, which aired nationally, brings more attention to Sintoya's case.
With the new information about her background being brought to light, her defense attorneys
push for a new trial in November of 2012.
They hope to use the fact of her fetal alcohol syndrome and the abuse she suffered as a child
to make the case that she is also a victim.
The attempt is unsuccessful.
In jail, Sintoya focuses on her studies and in December of 2015, she earned an associate
degree in liberal arts through Lipscomb University's prison schooling program.
She has a 4.0 GPA.
Wow.
Yeah.
Later in May of 2019, she gets her bachelor's of professional studies in organizational
leadership from the same school and again with a 4.0.
Jesus.
I know.
She also uses her experience to mentor other young girls who are in prison.
Wow.
So, in between 2016 and 2017, Dan Berman releases another documentary.
This time, it's a seven-part series in partnership with PBS and a reporter for the Tennessean
named Anita Wadwani.
And this series is called Sentencing Children, in which they follow up on Sintoya's case.
This time, it's right, basically, this documentary comes out right as the Me Too movement is
really starting to gain ground, both in Hollywood and on social media.
And the release of Sentencing Children helps Sintoya's case again get support, but this
time from celebrities.
So Kim Kardashian, Rihanna, and LeBron James are all retweeting and promoting the hashtag
free Sintoya Brown.
So basically, her whole story goes viral and people really start paying attention.
So petitions calling for her release gain hundreds of thousands of signatures nearing
the end of his term.
Tennessee governor Bill Halsam starts feeling the pressure to grant Sintoya clemency.
So the push for commuting Sintoya's sentence gains legal footing in June of 2012 with the
US Supreme Court ruling that prohibits giving life sentences without parole to minors.
So even though Sintoya was technically eligible for parole after 51 years, that five decade
wait is deemed unreasonable.
So given the mounting pressure, the Tennessee Supreme Court holds a public hearing on May
28, 2018 for Sintoya's clemency petition.
Now this is incredibly rare.
Only 2% of people in that position ever get this kind of second chance.
So at the hearing, a long list of people testify Sintoya's defense.
Her fellow inmates vouch for her good character.
Her professors from Lipscomb University say what a great student she's been.
Prison staff attest to her good behavior.
Even the prosecutor who put her behind bars, Preston ship comes forward to speak on her
behalf.
Wow, unprecedented.
So the few people who testify against her at this hearing include a friend of Johnny
Allen's and the lead detective on this case, Detective Charles Robinson.
He says, Robinson says that she still presents a danger to society and that there's quote,
no evidence of her being trafficked as a child.
If you have a pimp when you're 16, that's evidence.
You live in a motel.
Yeah.
You live on the streets.
With a guy named Cutthroat.
So by the end of the hearing, the parole board is split evenly in three, with two members
in favor of granting her immediate clemency, two in favor of reducing her sentence so
that she's eligible for parole in 25 years rather than 51 years, and then two flat out
denying any change in her sentence.
With the split decision, leaving things up in the air, advocates for Sintoya pushed the
Tennessee Supreme Court to commute her sentence on the grounds that it violates the ruling
that was made in June of 2012, which prohibits life sentences with no parole for juveniles.
But on December 6th, 2018, the court rules that because there is a chance for parole
after 51 years, it still falls within the legal guidelines of the statute.
But the public outcry for Sintoya's freedom continues, and Governor Halsam gets an overwhelming
number of phone calls and letters, calling for him to grant executive clemency before
his term is up in 2019.
Detective Charles Robinson writes to Halsam, urging him again not to grant clemency.
In his seven page letter, he writes, Sintoya Brown did not commit this murder because she
was a child sex slave, as her advocates would like you to believe, Sintoya Brown's motive
for murdering Johnny Allen in his sleep was robbery.
But the support and the evidence for Sintoya far outweighs the naysayers.
And on January 7th, 2019, Governor Halsam commutes her sentence to 15 years.
So he says that she'll have 10 years of supervised parole.
But on August 7th, 2019, exactly 15 years from the day of her arrest, Sintoya Brown
is released from prison, noting the quote, extraordinary steps Ms. Brown has taken to
rebuild her life, Halsam states that quote, society is better off with Sintoya out of
prison.
Oh my God.
Okay.
So in the immediate aftermath, Sintoya limits her interviews, making only a few public statements.
She says, quote, I look forward to using my experience to help other women and girls
suffering abuse and exploitation.
In a few months after her release, she's interviewed by The Today Show, by CBS News,
and by the Associated Press.
She also writes a memoir that's published in October of 2019 with the hope that it might
lead to meaningful criminal justice reform.
Wow.
Since her case hit the national news, Tennessee has changed its laws so that there's no longer
legal consideration for the term child prostitute.
Everyone underage who is engaging in sex work is now considered a victim of child sex trafficking
and will be treated as such even when they commit a crime.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
So it actually did, like the whole thing actually did like basically events change.
So Yasmin Vafa from Rights for Girls, which is an organization that fights against the
sexual abuse to prison pipeline.
Notice that Centoya's case is a quote, really important reminder that we have to take a very
nuanced approach to issues around criminal and juvenile justice reform.
We have to understand the histories and backgrounds of young women and girls and what it is that's
actually propelling them into this system.
Right.
A Netflix documentary is released in April of 2020 that's about Centoya, but she did
not authorize it.
And she didn't, she was very unhappy at its lack of focus on criminal justice reform.
Today Centoya lives with her husband, Jamie Long, and they've started a nonprofit called
the Foundation for Justice, Freedom and Mercy, which works to empower those who might be
exploited by the criminal justice system.
Centoya Brown will remain on parole until 2029.
So this past February, Centoya gave a talk at the University of Tennessee, which was
covered by the school newspaper, the UT Daily Beacon, in an article written by the editor
in chief, Alexander DiMarco.
And this is a quote from that article.
Quote, Brown's journey in the judicial system is not a rarity.
Oftentimes, a child's introduction into the juvenile court system begins through school.
Then the choice to send that child to a facility such as a juvenile prison, rather than enroll
them in preventative programs, only furthers the child's involvement with the legal system.
And then Centoya Brown is quoted as saying at this talk, stop always thinking that you
have to put a kid in a facility.
That should be the last resort.
Facilities are horrible.
They are horrible.
So the first time Centoya Brown was arrested was when she was 12 years old.
And that charge was for skipping school.
And she was immediately sent to a juvenile facility.
No.
Okay.
So that's the story that I wanted to do and wanted to cover.
But what's fascinating is a couple weeks ago, ProPublica, the website ProPublica, they
published a very disturbing story by journalists, Maraba Knight from Nashville Public Radio,
and Ken Armstrong from a reporter for ProPublica.
And it took place in Rutherford County, Tennessee in April of 2016.
So police officers went to Hobgood Elementary School, and they arrested four little girls,
a sixth grader, two fourth graders, and a third grader who had been seen in the background
of a YouTube video of an after school fight.
So there was little boys fighting, a five-year-old and a six-year-old trying to fight an older
boy.
And then there were some kids standing around, and some of them are yelling, no, no, no,
don't do it.
But basically, they decided to try to arrest all the children in this video.
All of these little girls were black.
The youngest one was eight years old.
Jesus.
And the charge they were arrested on was, quote, criminal responsibility for the conduct of
another.
And that is not an actual charge.
Okay.
So, of course, there was uproar over this decision to arrest these children at school.
A couple of them were actually handcuffed.
One little girl threw up, one dropped to her knees, like complete trauma.
Eleven children in all were arrested for being identified in this fight video.
This is all in the ProPublica article.
They were able to identify these children because they found one of the kids whose name
they knew, and they went and said, no one's going to get in trouble.
Just tell us who else is standing around in this circle so we can basically tell them
not to do this anymore.
So the one kid was tricked into giving names of all the other children in the video.
And then they were all arrested by the cops, like at school.
One of the cops was wearing like a flak jacket.
Like they were actually, like they were criminals.
Yes.
So basically, eleven children in all were arrested for being identified, and they all
eventually sued in federal court and got settlement.
Basically it got worked out.
You have to read this article though.
I will, yeah.
It's unbelievable the way this story shakes out.
And what you come to find is this shocking statistic that these reporters uncovered.
So this is from the article, quote, among cases referred to juvenile court, the statewide
average in Tennessee for how often children were locked up was five percent.
In Rutherford County, it was 48 percent.
Holy shit.
So Rutherford County also detains children from other counties in Tennessee, and they
charge $175 a day.
Fucking racket.
Lynn Duke, who runs Rutherford County's Juvenile Detention Center, once said at a
public meeting, quote, if we have empty beds, we fill them with a paying customer.
Oh, end quote.
So there was also in this article a statistic about the county's budget in 2005, the budget
for juvenile services, including court and detention center staff, was a little under
a million dollars, nine hundred and sixty two thousand four hundred and forty four
dollars.
By twenty twenty, it had jumped to almost four million dollars.
Holy shit.
In Tennessee, Davidson County, where Santoya Brown lived, and Rutherford County, where
this story took place, share a border.
And so basically, there is a business that's taking place.
This is the for-profit jail system that's starting with children and people are making
a profit and happily making a profit by sending children through these juvenile facilities.
And especially at risk children who are already living these trauma-filled lives of little
to no possibilities.
Well, and what it seems like in this article is the only reason these kids, the eleven
that were arrested in this video, the only reason they all of this became an uproar is
because all these parents were like, what in the hell do you think you're doing?
And they had people to advocate for them.
And Santoya Brown skipped school, got arrested, went to a juvenile facility and was in the
pipeline.
And that is the harrowing case of Santoya Brown.
Karen, amazing.
I had did not know all that information that is fucked up.
It's really dark, but I think everybody has to read because now the ProPublica article
came out on October 8th.
And definitely like I retweeted it, lots of people engaged with it.
It was, I don't know if it went viral per se.
But when you read the whole article, because it is a long read, and it's basically they
start talking about this, there's a judge in that county that is basically has this
system set up.
This woman who's been, who got voted in and has been there for like 20 years.
And they have rationalized how that basically for truancy for like they basically have decided
why they get to arrest black children and get and like it's, they've decided it's for
their own good.
Right.
It's they've rationalized all this.
Well, meanwhile, all the numbers are saying is they're all making a ton of money off of
it.
And it is, it's the kind of thing like, you know, this is the criminal justice reform
issue that like, we don't talk about stuff like that because serial killers are serial
killers.
That's like the specified kind of area that that's true crime that's true that you think
of as true crime.
And what I think is kind of amazing in 2020 and, you know, currently is how much that's
changing where it's like you, whatever your interest might be in the, can you believe
Ted Bundy got away with it for so long, it's now everyone's kind of turning their eyes
to the rest of criminal justice and like all those murdering knows we've met who are like
I'm getting into criminal justice because of this interest.
It's like people have to get into these systems and start making change.
Amazing.
Because the idea that people make money off of children going to juvie is insanely fucked
up.
Well, they make money.
They open the solving door so then they become criminals as adults and the for profit prison
just continues to make money.
It's a fucking self perpetuating system.
I mean, honestly, as someone who was a 13 year old meth user and suburbia and white,
I am very fucking aware of my privilege that when I got caught with it, I was given the
option by the police officer, my mom was given the option to go to rehab.
And if I didn't go directly to rehab, I had to go into juvie and it's like that.
I know that that decision would not have been hers to make.
Had I not been in a suburb and white 100% you know, and then when I went to rehab, it
was all, you know, underprivileged girls.
Well, also it makes me think of like the whole story of Santoy is like her case and all the
people that were testifying against her, who would testify for her?
She's an underage sex worker who's been in the system and has a record.
So it's almost like the justification and the rationale is already there of like, oh,
she's she started bad and she got worse where it's like.
If she stays out, she's going to continue to do bad things.
Very incredible for sharing that.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So as upsetting as that story is, we thought it'd be a good idea to donate to rights for
girls.
So we're going to be sending them $10,000 to help them out with their very important
work to try to make a difference with such an incredible and overwhelming issue that
we have in this country.
Yep.
Awesome.
All right.
Well, thank you guys so much for listening.
We, as always, appreciate you coming around.
We appreciate you.
We appreciate you coming around, sticking around, sticking it out, listening to our stories
and yes, sticking around for our left constant left turns.
Yeah.
And, you know, stay sexy and don't get murdered.
Goodbye.
Goodbye.
Elvis, do you want a cookie?
This has been an exactly right production.
Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton, associate producer Alejandra Keck, engineer and mixer
Stephen Ray Morris, researchers Jay Elias and Haley Gray, send us your hometowns and
your fucking arrays at myfavoritmurder at gmail.com and follow the show on Instagram
and Facebook at my favorite murder and Twitter at my fave murder.
And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch, or to join the fan
cult, go to myfavoritmurder.com.
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