My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 302 - Whistles & Flags

Episode Date: November 25, 2021

On today's episode, Georgia and Karen cover the mystery of Havana Syndrome and the murder of Martha Brailsford.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstar.

Thank you. That's Karen Kilgera. I almost forgot my line. It truly was lost. I was lost there first. We haven't scripted this in years, so it could be whatever you want it to be. I need to run my lines the night before and then an hour before, but I skip. Look at the script, Karen.

God. Five, six, seven, eight. Please. I do love the idea of there, there's got to be podcasts out there and not the scripted act out ones, but like, you know, somewhere there are people doing podcasts that type up a script beforehand. Like a, hello, welcome to this is that thing and this is what the podcast is about. Casual conversation.

There's a couple of them that I've listened to because they're true crime ones where they have hosts, but clearly they're actors playing hosts trying to, they're just trying to get the whole thing done. Yeah. Talent. Like there's no one that actually, it's not their podcast, right? It's just like, you have a great voice. Can you, can you present this true crime podcast even though you have no interest in true crime

whatsoever? Yes, there's some, and it's not a judgment. It's just a way of producing. It's a little. Well, I mean, what I'm saying is a little, the goal isn't what we're doing. Let's just say that, but this is what all I'm saying, the goal should never be what we're doing. Please, please have less of this out in the world, but it's the thing where you can

tell when people are, even if they're really good actors, you can tell when they're not actually talking, right? You know, from the soul, like I am right now. It's a talent to be this soulful and loose, this blue-eyed soul over here that's happening every week on the show. It takes almost six years and 300 episodes to be this loosey-goosey. You also forget that anyone's listening is a great step in the process. Yeah.

And then you have to memorize the script and forget it all and let it come out naturally. Yeah. Pretend it's true. We take so many, so many acting classes for this podcast. Now as an actor, Karen, which you are, I don't know, I just wanted to say actor. Over the years, what I've realized is whatever drew me to acting, it was just a kind of placeholder because what I really wanted to do was stand up comedy and acting, the job of acting sucks. It does.

It sucks. It's like real quick, craft services. You could get anything you want for breakfast, like anything. But you can also do that outside that building and not fail at the same time. You can just go have a bunch of crazy eggs if you want to. You're right. Breakfast quesadilla, you can do that anywhere. You can do it.

You know what you can do? You can have dinner for breakfast just like you can have breakfast for dinner. You can do it all. Meatloaf. Meatloaf, I was just kidding. Meatloaf, it's 7 a.m. I can? Oh, man, one time, like not long ago, Vince and I were having breakfast at the diner and

I saw a couple next to us get chili cheese fries and it was like 10 a.m. And I was like, I am allowed to do that? Yes, you are. Similar to the time and this was at Stone's Town in the mid-late 70s. My aunt Kathleen took me and my sister and my cousin Nancy to Stone's Town, which is the big mall in San Francisco down 19th Avenue. They had this, their food court was like international food, so there was no brand. It was just like, this is where you can get Japanese food.

This is where you can get Chinese food. This was where you can get, you know, all different countries for the late 70s, right? Completely. It was like, and then there was like hamburgers and then, you know, whatever, fried chicken or whatever. But I'll never forget, we got whatever we were all, we all got to get what we wanted. We came back sat at the table with our trays and I looked over and there was a little girl with like a man in a suit.

It was clearly father and daughter and her, her plate was just a little mountain of mashed potatoes. And I was like, okay, that's a divorced dad. I looked at it, you gotta eat whatever you want when your divorced dad is fucking taking you out like anytime. I longed for her life. I was just like, imagine the amount of TV she gets to watch and the amount of mashed potatoes she gets to eat.

She is running the fucking show in that apartment. And her name is Kamala Harris. And today she is the leader of the free world. That's right. Okay. Can I, this is a perfect segue. Otherwise, I wouldn't bring this up this early in the show because this is bad. Oh, all right.

Okay, I stumbled upon the fact that at some point 2019 and before that Pringles put out like, it's almost like a, like a gift set, you know, like when you get at the grocery store of like, here are all these different kinds of cookies for the holidays. They put out one of different flavor, like, like Thanksgiving flavor Pringles. No. Yes. Just like the candy corns we ate. Oh shit.

And it's, have you ordered it? Have you overnighted it? Well, first let me tell you the flavors and then why, why I haven't overnighted it. It's gravy, gravy, gravy, gravy and gravy. Oh, I would have fucking double overnighted it then. What's that? Tonight. That's tonight.

Turkey, mashed potatoes, stuffing, of course. Then there's a mac and cheese one, a creamed corn fucking Pringle, a green bean casserole, a cranberry sauce one, and a pumpkin pie Pringle. Okay. Are these, I'm so sorry, you said they started in 2018? Well, I was only able to find them up to 2019. The reason I didn't overnight them is because guess how much, I don't think they're making them now.

Guess how much they're going for on fucking eBay. Oh, $800? $1,000. Down from $1,500 because everyone's been like, fuck you. Can you believe? Pop that top and then you're like, yeah, give me that green bean casserole pressed potato flake chip. You know, that company tried to get away with not calling them a potato chip, so they wouldn't

have to have the same nutritional bullshit. They tried to make it seem healthier, it was not a potato chip and the FDA or like, it's a fucking potato chip Pringles, like calm down. But also, when we were on the road, Pringles were my downfall, remember I used to say it to you, I'm like, I'm not going to open the little Pringles can that's going to be in the hotel room. There's always, yes. Right?

The best. And I would always be like Diet Coke and little Pringles can, but it's like, these are not, the idea that they would even pretend to be healthy, they're barely potatoes. They're not, nothing that's happening in your mouth in that Pringle retainer that I stick in my mouth and let melt away. It's not, it's not made of food. It is no different than, and I am not talking shit because I will make these no, no fucking shame at all, the like instant mashed potato flakes.

It's the same thing, it's just squashed into a thing, into a perfectly sized shape of the roof of your mouth. That you can just do over and over again. They get easier to eat as you go, they, because the flavor doesn't build, like, you know, on your like 10th Dorito, you're like, my tongue burns and this is bad for me and I know it and I'm doing it anyway. Not so with Pringles. Question, important question that I've had to ask myself from our snack drawer recently.

Nacho cheese Dorito or Cool Ranch Dorito? Well, if, here, here comes the eating disorder. If it were still 1980, then I would be like, oh, I don't even know when. I don't think they make Cool Ranch now, yeah, or I would say earlier days, when, before one food tasted different because now it just isn't the same, but the original Nacho cheese Doritos had my heart and soul from the first moment I tried them, I was like, what is happening? These are amazing. When Cool Ranch Doritos came out and I was like, a spin off, exciting, but they never

really did it for me the way the original ones did. These days, I don't know if they're putting extra like paprika on there or something. They're just too, it's too much. Like the whole event is too much. The Cool Ranch ones? No, the classics that I used to love so much with a turkey sandwich like in school. Smashed in there. Anyways, this is our Thanksgiving and Christmas food theme podcast.

We'll be trying not to. Jones's gravy soda. Can we try that? Yes, please. Okay. I'm going to buy that. You know, Jones, I feel like Jones soda should get more credit because I think they started the weird flavor thing that Oreo is now very well known for.

Oh, yeah. A lot of places are doing like, can you believe we're doing this? Everyone's like, yeah, at this point, Jones soda did it very early on. Yeah. That was kind of their thing. Maybe I'll go to the Galco's soda shop in fucking Eagle Rocker Highland Park that's got like all the old school soda and candy. I'll pick up some weird flavors.

Maybe next week or before Christmas or whatever, we'll do some weird taste testing. I'm loving this life that I'm living and you're a huge part of that, George. Honored. Honored. Thank you. Also, the idea, that just made me have kind of this weird memory of someone's mom when I was growing up, used to go and it was pre-Bevmo, did they have soda delivered to their house? There was some special, she would go to a specialty soda shop and get rich or just kind

of like live it on the edge because my parents, it was the 70s where it was like everyone was like wheat bread and the peanut butter with two inches of oil on the top that bummed you out so bad. But there's some people's parents who are like, you know what, fuck all that shit, we're going full on like who wants a squirt with dinner, obscure, fascinating sodas, we're like, what kind do you want? My mom bought a Zima once, I don't think that counts. Speaking of alcoholism, I don't think accidentally.

Just to relax everybody? Yeah, that's alcohol for all those kids who don't know, that's a malt beverage. It was an original delicious carbonated malt beverage. Janet. How old were you? I think I was like 12. Anyways, meth came not much later and can you fucking blame me? You're like, this is the perfect, this was the gateway, Zima is a gateway drug to everything.

Okay, so she went to the store and she got, wait, what? You're telling me the story that I interrupted about your, no, no, no, it was a mom that basically went to a specialty, it was before Bevmo, there was still, there was some specialty soda shop and she just got some, it was like sodas I'd never seen, even at, like, even our ages corner store had like blue knee high, you know what I mean, I'm gonna go get a blue knee high and you can't stop me or whatever. Oh my God, that's adorable. But this mom bought.

She can't stop me. Remember jolts when we were children? Yes. Oh, we get jolts, colas. What was it? It was like double caffeine Coca-Cola that tasted great. It tasted great. And I think there was also extra sugar in it.

Absolutely. There was extra asbestos in it, there was extra fricking and a sprinkle of mehbs, all of it. And that's how we learned. That's how we did it. Do you have anything? No, I don't, I haven't really nothing to report. I think it's like a slow crawl to the end of this year.

Yeah. Slow crawl toward, although I have to say I'm very excited because my family came to visit it and everyone's down and we're, of course we're watching a lot of football, which I would on the surface think I would be irritated by. But the second it's on, like I wouldn't watch it by myself. But when my dad is there and then everyone's kind of around, that's how we're just so used to that. That's like the background.

It's comforting. Yeah. It really is. I love, I don't, I mean I'll watch it for a minute while it's on, I don't give a shit about it. It's so comforting to have, it means everyone's chilling, right? Yes. Exactly.

It's like, it's a casual kind of party vibe. There's lots of whistles, which you know I love. Wistles here and there. Karen is a whistle influencer. Everyone knows that about her. Everyone knows how I'm passionate, the history of whistles, but that also my dad will turn and say to, like talk to my sister about different players as if we're all up on it. And we have no idea what he's talking about.

And I always play along and then he goes, eh, you're, but you're bullshitting me. And he like, but he does it every time where I'm like, right, I've never watched one of these games. Like I have no, you might as well just be making up names. Yeah. And yet you still keep to, I have to, I have to pick that up because when Vince puts wrestling on and he's like so into it and I like want to be there for him, but I'm not that interested in wrestling and he'll start laughing and he thinks I'm watching.

I'm not with him, but I'm not like that guy, blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm like, what? I have to be like, I have to start pretending like I've been watching. Yeah. You play along. Yeah. As a loving, as a loving supportive partner. Okay. And that's, I do it too, but I also sometimes it'll be like, sometimes I'll just go that,

how is that team New York? I thought New York was white and green and they goes, that's the giants or the jets. There's one, they're white and green are one of them and it's not the ones we were watching. I think the jets and I was like, Oh, which one's better? Like trying to get, they're both the shits and he's like waving me off like it wasn't talking time. Yeah. That's the thing is like, I don't know culturally how to, how to blend.

So you have to kind of wait for him to give you the key of like, you're allowed to ask a question. Right. Participate right now. I'm willing right now to share with you, otherwise I was just looking for camaraderie. I have two daughters and a granddaughter and you didn't give it to me. So shut the fuck up. He gets none of it.

He has to do it all by himself. We, I pray, I play long and pretend, but I'm doing it sarcastically and he knows it. Yeah. That hurts his feeling. It's just kind of funny. It's like, I think it's a holiday thing. Right. And then it really started feeling holidayish.

And then I think that is a good way to blend and just be like, what colors are the, which I like this team because of the colors. Yeah. Oh, they love that. This is off a fan. Well, the other day Vincent, we're going to brunch and he goes, oh, it's a good thing that the Rams aren't playing today or to be busy and I go, oh, where are they from San Francisco?

They're from LA. I don't fucking care. I'm from here. I don't give a shit. It's unimaginable to a many men that you just have not paid attention to any sport. I don't care. It's, it's, yeah, but it's, you know, but then it's fun to dip into. Sure.

Yeah. It's the holiday season. Oh, that was a false start. I love that. Wouldn't they do that? Oh my God. Because you know why? Whistles and flags.

Karen's favorite thing. Whistles, flags, maybe a hand gesture. It's like, this is just a card ears because you did something or is that soccer? A card. I don't think those cards. Yellow card. Okay, great. They're Mike gets turned on the referee or umpire.

I see you grabbing your wrist. I know you're right. Holding. Hold on. Number 29. 9. 9. 9.

To the next stop. It'll be like, dad, which team is that guy on? God damn it. Just get out of here. If you're going to be like that. Well, I'm coming over for dinner with Vincent Cookie on Wednesday. So I think we said Wednesday. It's going to be a, I can't fucking wait.

I'm getting it. I'm getting your dad a glitter iPhone case for his new iPhone. For his new Christmas or birthday iPhone that you're getting him spoiler alert. Don't anybody tell him spoilers because your dad listens to this podcast and is on social media. Right. And this comes out days after. That's right.

But still. Right. Yeah. Oh, this comes out of Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving to you. Happy Thanksgiving to you. You, you know, the old Thanksgiving Carol, what's your favorite part about Thanksgiving, Georgia?

Um, well, the, uh, you mean food wise. That's all I can think of. But yeah. I don't know. It's the main thing. It's like cozy and happy. And everyone's like stoked. I guess my answer is Jenga.

Okay. The family plays. You got yourself there. You got yourself there. I did. It was a winding road to get to Jenga. But you got there. I got there.

What's yours? Wait. Your whole family plays every year. It's just like there for whoever wants to play it, which I really enjoy. It's fun. That's really good too. Because it's like kids of every age. Right.

One to a hundred. You know me. My favorite thing about Thanksgiving is whistles. Those Thanksgiving whistle carols. You guys go around the block every year so loud. Just piercing. Piercing. And then there's a dot couple dog whistles thrown in just to fuck with everyone in the

neighborhood. You know what? I actually, I will say what I miss about old school family, Thanksgiving's and what I love about this, what's already happening, is the way my family does it. And my sister is so like, plenty, plenty. That she's kind of like, she's got different areas of the kitchen where this is, the boxes of stuffing are over here. And they're with the things, they're with the onions that are going to go in there.

So she's putting things in areas and everything is slowly being prepped. And because there's going to be a pie and there's going to be, you know, the whole thing. And the morning of, it all starts at like eight a.m., like it just kicks off and goes all day long. I think that's what I love. I did too. What time do you guys eat? Because everyone's coming over to our place at like two, which is insane for dinner,

like a dinner time thing. I think people, I mean, five-ish, I think, probably is five or so. That's smarter. Yeah. Oh, unless something bad happens on Wednesday, you guys can swim by after your thing on Thursday. Nope. We cut the killgiraffes off from our holidays. We get one chance and one chance only to make this right.

It's fucking right. If Frank and Cookie don't get along, this podcast is over. Goodbye. Frank and Cookie, I told Georgia earlier that, because we were talking about her bringing Cookie over to play with Frank. And then I said, everyone in Petaluma's grandparents are named Frank and Cookie. That is just like the most hilarious, familiar name combination. It's so true.

Like, I didn't even think about a great combo, what a great couple they are, how fun they are to invite over for Christmas. Have a highball, huh? Yeah. It's Frank and Cookie's house. Oh, he's home from work. I make him a highball and we have cocktails. Cookie can play the piano, for sure.

Tend to round her neck like, what, Cookie, put the garland back. All right. Should we get this thing going? Why not? Oh, we should do exactly the right corner. Let's do it. We should do work. Come on.

Why? Oh, it's coming up on our third anniversary of this network. Holy shit. That's kind of mind-blowing. I just saw that in the email and I'm like, what? Really? Wow. Wow.

Amazing. Congratulations, everybody. Maybe we birthed without fucking pain meds or anything. Actually, if it's exactly right's third anniversary, then we need to call out, thank, bless, and hold dear the great Danielle Kramer, who has been running this show since, you know, six months into day one and kicking ass and taking names for us and with us and we could have never gotten here without Danielle Kramer. Never ever.

She is a saint and an incredible person. She's the greatest. She's the coolest. Thank you, Danielle. Yeah. Thank you, Danielle. Happy three years. She's like, I quit.

She's like, I can't stand it. I hate you, Beau. No, actually, Danielle's the one that's like, I just want quarantine and the pandemic and all the scariness to be over so we could go out to dinner again because we had a real good dinner going out to dinner thing going for a while. And she's vegan and still enjoy dinner like that says something like that's a person who can party. That's right.

Yeah. And then waiting for impact, of course, Dave Holmes incredible podcast this week is taking a little detour into the 90s alternative rock with guest Peter Stewart, who's the musician from the band Dogs I View. So get fucking hop into the 90s, put on a slap bracelet and jump on in there. Yeah. And get into it. That's actually a really, that's a really good interview.

It's such a fascinating love that podcast so much. And then of course, if you go to exactlyrightmedia.com and or myfavoritmurder.com, you can go check out everybody's merch. Every show on our network has merch and they have great merch. Like I saw what you did. We are selling Danielle Henderson's book. She has signed copies of her book that she just read, which is a great book. And there's also, they have some kind of amazing arts and crafts wall hanging kit that is in

the colors of the podcast, you know, logo. Really great. There's like, of course, bananas, bananas has their candle, their holy candle where Scotty is the baby and her is the Virgin Mary, I think it's what they're doing. And it's holding babies, naked baby Scotty. It's very odd and wonderful. It's very devotional. Just like them.

They're dirtiest prayers. Everyone's got stuff that you that make great gifts that you can go on there. And then of course, we've got all of our t-shirts and whatnot. We have ornaments. My favorite murder ornaments and so many good gifts and ugly Christmas sweaters. We have all kinds of stuff there's a stay saved and do God's mission sweatshirt, which is truly one of my favorite things that ever happened on our podcast and then be, it's a great looking sweatshirt.

And if you order by December 8th, you'll get it by the 25th with no, I don't know how it mail works. No, that's right. Be aware of the supply chain. That's it. Right. That's all our biz. That's it.

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Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Okay. Okay. Here we go. Georgia goes first. Yes. I'm going first.

And I'm going to tell you, Karen, about this news story I've been fascinated with since I first stumbled upon it a couple of years ago. And I've kind of been following it. It sounds like something out of a sci-fi book, but it actually goes all the way to the fucking top. As it always does. As it doesn't should. This is the Havana Syndrome conspiracy.

Oh, shit. Yeah. You know. People talking about this. Yeah. For today's story, I use sources from a BBC article written by Gordon Carrera. And I use that heavily. An article written by Andrea Mitchell, Ken Dillion and Brenda Bressler.

And a US news article by Paul Shinkman and New York Times, opinion article by Spencer Boeck Lindell. An ABC article written by Connor Finnegan and Matt Saylor and the Council on Foreign Relations. So, let's get into some conspiracy shit. Okay. So, the Havana Syndrome is shrouded in mystery and conspiracy theories. And the US government hasn't totally been forthcoming about the details, which of course

just makes it more interesting to us fucking tinfoil hatters. But recently they vowed to be more transparent. So with that said, here is what we do now. In 2015, President Obama meets with Raul Castro in an effort to restore US relations with Cuba, which works great. And soon the US opens up an embassy in Cuba. And so the people who are going to work at the embassy in the US government are sent to live and work in Cuba.

So they're there to work with the Cuban government to collect intelligence to fight back against Russian and Chinese spies. Great. In 2016, CIA officers in Cuba start suffering from mysterious ailments. Some victims report hearing buzzing, grinding metal, or piercing squeals. They cover it like super loud, so loud that they cover their ears, but that doesn't make a difference. It's like it's in their head.

Others report not hearing a sound, but feeling heat or pressure in their skulls. Many victims suffer from dizziness, fatigue, headaches, disorientation, cognitive difficulties and more. And these symptoms last for months, even after the occurrence. So three CIA officers stationed in Cuba come forward to tell NBC News what it's like to have what's now referred to as Havana syndrome, so the public will take it seriously. Tina Onifer says she was standing at her kitchen windows, and she's one of the US workers. She's at her kitchen window.

She's washing dishes when out of nowhere. She felt like she was being struck with something. It was as if she had been seized by some invisible hand and couldn't move. She felt pain that she'd never felt before in her life, and the pain was mostly in her head and her eyes. And so she's gripping her head. She can't fucking even move. She's able to get away from the kitchen window.

And the acute symptoms stop, but she's still a splitting headache for the rest of the night. And for the next couple of weeks, she experiences vertigo, her memory is affected. But meanwhile, also, her two kids who were upstairs in the time didn't experience anything. So it was like, it was targeted through her window. Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. This is all.

Thank you. You're going to be dealing with it. Normally, I'm, you know, me and Bigfoot and all the crypto stuff I had. I've read a lot. I've read some about this. Yeah. I've read a lot. What?

I'm not a believer. You're not? Okay. Let's get into it. No. Okay. This is. Well, yeah.

Go ahead. I'll get to the people who are like bullshit. Okay. Okay. So married couple, Kate husband, and Doug Ferguson, and Doug wife had a different experience than Tina's. They heard, quote, an annoying sound at their house many nights a week over the course of weeks.

The sound was piercing, persistent, very loud, and they said it was nothing you could sit down with and be okay with like it was not ignorable. After examination by neurologist, Doug was allowed to go back to work, but Kate was diagnosed with a brain injury, quote, related to a directional phenomenon exposure. And she had to retire on medical disability after treatment didn't help. So there's your, I don't believe it, Karen. In my face immediately, but doctors diagnosed her with a directional, what's it called? Directional phenomenon exposure.

Huh. Okay. Well, let's get more into it. So yeah, for the year 2016, the US intelligence officer specifically in Cuba seemed to be the only people suffering from the syndrome. So it was specific to Cuba. But then in 2017, a dude named Mark, Pauli Mara Popoulos, a senior CIA agent wakes up in a Moscow hotel with his ears ringing and his head spinning.

He later tells the BBC that he felt like he was going to vomit and he couldn't stand up. Two years later, Mark was still suffering from headaches so severe he had to retire. In 2018, a CIA officer located at the consulate in China reports similar symptoms. She suffers headaches, nausea, and loss of balance for months, initially believing it was connected to high levels of pollution. But then her mom comes out to help her. She also falls ill.

And then here's like a little piece of evidence that like to me means a lot. Her dog falls ill too. Meaning like... Yeah, but I'm just thinking black mold, natural gas escaping through a hole in the ground that no one knows is possible, radon gas, I mean, I don't know those actual symptoms or everything, but having a migraine, like I've told you that story of when I was in college and that day in my room and I both got a really bad migraine, couldn't move, laid in bed, we didn't work for the government and we weren't, no one gave a shit about anything

we knew because we didn't know anything. So it's the kind of thing we're just like, to me this is the kind of story that people freak out about and then start going, I have it too. And it's like, okay. I'm going to get to that. Okay, great. Okay, so from there, the syndrome makes its way to every continent except, and this is a conspiracy, Antarctica.

What are you doing in Antarctica? Yep. I just being cold. People suffer from headaches, dizziness, nausea and vertigo, loss of movement, hearing and concentration. People hear loud sounds similar to cicadas, which seem to follow them from one room to another, but when they open the outside door, the sound abruptly stopped. And some of the victims said they felt as if they were standing in an invisible beam

of energy. Oftentimes though, if there's a cricket at your house and you can hear it, when you go to look for it, you open a door, it will stop. If it knows you're coming. That's right. Just putting it out there. I mean, a devil's advocate, don't take it personally, I'm just doing it. Hey, man.

I didn't invent Havana syndrome. I'm not mad about it. Okay. Hey, man. Havana syndrome becomes national news. Many people start theorizing about what's going on. Some people theorize the symptoms, like Karen Kilgarov said, are all in the mind. One of those people.

No, no, no. But I mean, I don't think it's not like they're imagined. I think that they can have lots of causes. Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay. You don't think that it's okay. Got it. No, no.

I think having had a very terrible migraine, I know exactly, like a lot of those symptoms sound very similar. Got it. To me. One of those people is Robert Bellow, a professor of neurology from UCLA. He told the BBC that he thinks the syndrome is actually just a quote, what they're now calling a mass psychogenetic condition, aka mass hysteria, which they don't use the term anymore.

Right. So he also calls it contagious stress. He says that most psychogenetic conditions stem from a stressful situation, such as fucking working in Cuba. Everything that's happening in our world today. The world. Yeah. Bellow says that the symptoms of Havana syndrome are real, so the symptoms are real, however

they are from stress. And then the psychogenetic condition affects masses of people when reports of the syndrome spread. So like the bigger news becomes the more people experience it. Yeah. People become, quote, hyper aware and fearful, and they start exhibiting the same symptoms. He says it's similar to how some people may feel sick after they're told they've eaten tainted food, even when there was nothing wrong with what they ate.

Yeah. And then I looked up a bunch of examples of mass hysteria because I think it's fascinating. Another example is that when telephones were first used widely at the turn of the 20th century, quote, numerous telephone operators became sick with concussion like symptoms attributed to acoustic shock. So they were like the something in the waves of the telephone is making me sick. Yep. Right.

And it was just like them having to adapt to this new technology that they didn't understand or being afraid of it. Yeah. Yeah. So other. And it's in your head. It's in your ear. It's in your head, but the symptoms are real.

Like you make yourself sick almost. I'm not saying it's in your head. Like it's fake. It's taking place, it's not your arm. It's your brain. It hurts. Yeah. You're dizzy.

The things that are happening are literally in your head. But the people. Factually. But the people who think they've eaten something wrong, that's in their stomach. Like they get nauseous and sick. Correct. We're saying the same thing. I'm not saying, I'm saying that these people, when you believe you could have it, that the

pain you're experiencing and the symptoms are things that are neurologically based. Yes. That's what I mean. Got it. Yeah. So other examples are the laughing plague. There's a meowing plague where a bunch of nuns started fucking meowing. Stephen, that one's for you.

So sorry, but can I tell you that? Yeah. The laughing thing. Last night we were ordering pizza and you know, Lucifer's pizza. Yeah. So good. So good. So I'm reading all the different kinds of pizza that we can order.

Yeah. And one of the, and I'm reading them up, vegetarian, whatever their names are. And I get down and I go, the ring burner, and then start reading. And I get to, I get to jalapeños, which is like two ingredients in, and I start laughing. That's a terrible name. It's the worst name. Why would you call her? I start laughing.

My niece, Maura, starts fucking laughing and we're like, I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe it. And then I can't stop laughing. It was like church. My dad, we couldn't tell if he was paying attention or not because there was football game on. But I was like, it was like, I was about to get in trouble and I couldn't stop laughing. It was so hilarious.

And then the three of us, me, Laura and Nora, all started laughing so hard. Like you're kidding. It was hilarious. But anyway, that's it. We had our own mini-mass hysteria of just, that's how it goes. That's exactly what it's like. Like one person starts doing it and then everyone else, which is the most fun thing ever. There's a dancing plague, which sounds great.

But then of course there's the satanic panic, which is also mass hysteria. There's the war of the worlds from Orson Welles and the Salem witch trials. So listen, not all mass hysteria events are fun, like a laughing plague. Wait, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do the meowing nuns at some point, please. And go deep. Okay. And do an impression of what they sounded like for 60 minutes. I will do it, please.

So some suggest, Karen, that the Havana syndrome may be linked to chemicals used in pesticides and insecticides and nerve gas. Cuba did launch an aggressive campaign against our foes, the mosquitoes. My favorite murder's biggest foe. Mosquitoes in 2016, because I remember the Zika virus. So they did an aggressive campaign against mosquitoes and spraying in and around offices and diplomatic residences. So that's a possibility.

Yeah. Chemical reaction. Yeah. A possibility. Yeah. Imagine the possibilities. This is serious. Okay.

Others wonder if the Cuban government is using some sort of weapon on U.S. personnel, which isn't that far-fetched because it's no secret that the U.S. and Cuba have had a strained and strange relationship for decades. So this all stems from 1959 when Fidel Castro overthrows the U.S. back government in Havana and turns it into a socialist state, Castro becomes allies with the Soviet Union. And according to the BBC, Cuba is established as a, quote, major Soviet listening station. You know, there's that whole Cold War thing, which, yeah, the Cold War thing, as they go into it.

Go into it. Explain it to me, please. So in 2014, Vladimir Putin visits Cuba and suggests a listening station reopen. And the next year, Obama restores diplomatic relations with Cuba, because these events are so close. Some wonder if Cuba is actually collecting intelligence on the U.S. for Russia. Which might give people headaches? Well, people believe the answer is in our favorite form of cooking, microwaves.

Those microwaves, yeah. Delicious microwaves. So which is a type of electromagnetic radiation. So besides causing some of the symptoms of that syndrome, one former UK intelligence official tells the BBC that microwaves can be used to illuminate electronic devices to extract signals or identify and track them. So according to the BBC, this theory stems from World War II, when there are reports of people being able to hear something when a nearby radar is switched on and begins sending

microwaves into the sky. So fast forward to the Cold War, when Professor James Lin conducts experiments to figure out how microwaves affect the human brain. And he does the thing that I fucking love when scientists do, which is experiments on himself. Yes. That's the most honest way. It really is.

So he sits in a room, puts an antenna pointed at the back of his head. Someone sends pulses of microwaves through the antenna. He finds that a single pulse of a microwave sounds like a zip or a clicking finger. So it does sound like something, and there is like a sensation, like a bird chirping, he says, in your brain, and it's produced in the head rather than as a sound wave coming from the outside. So it seems like it's coming from inside the brain. From the inside the house.

Yeah, exactly. He theorizes that the soft tissue of the brain is absorbing the microwave energy and converting it into a pressure wave moving inside the head, which makes me think of the fact that Vince will not will not stand near the microwave when the door is open. Did you do that too? Yep. I have to move away. It's cause they were, I remember when they were like invented and first put into homes

and my parents wouldn't get one for years. Yeah. They were like, let's just see. Yeah. Let's just see how it goes. And then Vince told me that his family had the one they bought in like 1978 until his dad died like a couple of years ago and like you just keep the same microwave, but it probably does have.

Yeah. So if I, if I open the door without pressing stop, he like yells at me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Old school. So today there are around 200 people suffering from the Havana syndrome. 200 people.

Karen. Yeah. Okay. All right. And the US government is trying to figure out what's going on. One official says it's quote, the most difficult intelligence challenge they've ever faced. But there's no real evidence that the Havana syndrome is even real. So they're on your side, partly because so many of the patients have completely different

symptoms. So it's not like, if I feel like if everyone had this symptom, it would be obvious, but they don't. And so many people are misdiagnosed with Havana syndrome. The state department tried to get some answers by sponsoring a US national academics of science study into the Havana syndrome. In December, 2020, they reported that quote, directed high energy pulsed microwaves are most likely responsible for some of the cases.

And they noted that Russia has studied microwave technology more than any other fucking country in the world. Yeah. Okay. So even though they sponsored the study, the state department currently says they believe the report is a quote plausible hypothesis, but they haven't found any further evidence to support it. Hmm.

I mean, you know, it's making me think of on like the history channel or some, I watched this special one time about, and this was a while ago about how they were developing, whether it was for military use or for police use, which is very frightening. Like different things were like, they were sound wave things. Have you seen those where it's like, if they point them, it's for it's quote unquote, crowd control. Yes. Like if they point it like you shit your pants, like it, it the sound wave is such a low vibration.

I think that was one of them, or they just make you freeze like it scrambles yourself. I'm not saying that I don't doubt that they're, they're, uh, devious, uh, people out there, you know, making weapons or technology that could really affect other human beings negatively. I absolutely believe in that. But I do think in this day and age, especially everything has this kind of fevered fervor like people are just jumping on bandwagons, yeah, all the fuck over the place, what do you say? We're not talking about unvaccinated people.

What do you talk about the 20th video I've seen on Twitter of people, I just watched this video of this fucking idiot trying to confront a guy who was getting a booster. And it's like, you're absolutely doing this for like online clout. And you look like a complete idiot. Yeah. And there's, we just live in this very weird, yeah, this world where people are so affected by social media and yeah, yeah, they're easily led. Yes.

They're sheeple. Uh, everybody but us and people who listen to this podcast, right, who are all vaccinated. The weird thing to me is that, uh, this, so this dude, a study led by this dude, Douglas H. Smith, who's the director for the Center for Brain Injury and Repair at the University of Pennsylvania, who looked at 21 cases of this. He and his team found signs of brain damage, like what you can't, you can't do on your own as a like, no, that's not a migraine. That's a totally different thing.

That's like, yeah, you're right. That's my theory goes out the window when there's actual like tissues on an MRI that are shown, yeah, have been affected. So they, but they saw no signs of impact to the patient's skull, a trauma they referred to as immaculate concussion, which is a rad punk rock band, a little bit, a little catchy, a little too catchy. Yeah. Yeah.

They determined that the injuries resembled concussions like those suffered by soldiers struck by roadside bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan. So the state department set up a task force to help personnel suffering from Havana syndrome, which they're now calling unexplained health incidents because I don't, because I think it'll incite another war if they call it the Havana syndrome. And they're not calling it attacks. What do you mean, incite another war? Well, I just don't think they want to call it a attack or the Havana syndrome because

Oh, like blaming. Yeah. Like it just puts the blame on someone. So regardless of what's causing it, I will say Gordon Carrera said in his BBC article, quote, the mystery of Havana syndrome could be its real power. The ambiguity and fear it spreads act as a multiplier, making more and more people wonder if they are suffering. And it's maybe developed a life of its own.

And it's maybe affecting politics on its own as well. Just in the past year, reports of an outbreak in Hanoi, Vietnam delayed president, sorry, delayed vice president Kamala Harris's visit by a few hours, one can dream. In September, President Biden signed into law a bill to compensate victims, despite there being no formal explanation for the Havana syndrome. Cheryl Rhofer, a former chemist at the Los Alamos National Laboratory says, quote, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and no evidence has been offered to support the existence of this mystery weapon.

Yeah. Meanwhile, experts at the CIA called the Havana syndrome one of the most confounding medical and espionage mysteries to involve American personnel overseas since the Cold War. And some people just think it could all be in the mind. And that is the mystery of the Havana syndrome conspiracy. It's definitely fascinating. I guess my cynicism about this comes from is having had epilepsy since I was 27. And I've had seizures where I don't come out of it quickly.

So I'm kind of in the seizing state, but conscious. And it's a very strange sensation and experience and the sounds are very upsetting. And there's a whole thing that goes with it that if I had a, you know, like some sort of like a government job or whatever, I would have been like, what the fuck was that? But I was just a podcaster in my house or whatever, where it kind of was because it's something happening in your brain and the brain is this mysterious organ that we barely know anything about. And so the explanations, it's just so irritating that it's not like this rash and you can do

all the tests or whatever. It's like the brain is so mysterious and or things with hearing or balance or whatever, where, you know, I think we all know people that have gotten vertigo. Yes. Vertigo. And like it took a while for it to go away. And that, I mean, what do you hear when you're, I didn't know there was like a hearing aspect to it.

But if for this last one where I didn't come out of it very quickly, I was like there seizing for a while and it almost sounded like really heavy techno music, I would have never listened to voluntarily. Like there was like, it was like, it was a really upsetting, very loud and kind of grindy sound. Now coming out of it, it could have been me literally like grinding my teeth. It could have been like all of the involuntary physical reactions when you're having seizure. It could have been a lot of different things.

It was just like, it was kind of a different new experience. It was pretty scary. And that's the thing about when something happens that's neurological. It's so fucking scary because you can't look at it and other people can't look at it. And there's very few tests like that, you know, the mystery of it is very upsetting and very stressful. So if it's a stress based thing, or if that's one of the theories, it creates stress. It's like, you know, it's like one of those things that the laughing plague, it's people

start laughing and then they can't stop and no one else can stop. And then that it like builds on itself. Same with a neurological issue where if you have a thing that's very explainable, just maybe the people weren't there in the room to explain it, it was just the one person. I don't know. So yeah, that makes that makes me feel a lot more like, I think empathy for that of like, what a terrifying thing it is when your brain is doing something, you have no control over and you can explain it to someone in the doctor's office, but they can't test it.

And they can't they can't test your blood and be like, yeah, you have this or that. It's just, yeah, misfiring. It's misfiring. And like there's there are times where they're, you know, so I actually really do. I'm being cynical and simultaneously, I have a lot of empathy for people who either have gone through this or think that's what it is, because until they know, they are not going to know. Right.

And that's all it is a terrible feeling. And I know that feeling. Yeah. And then to have to retire from your career because of whatever is happening that no one can explain is is probably just fucking heartbreaking. Yeah, it really is. But you know what? I mean, think of, and this is not directly related, but it reminds me in the nineties.

Remember Epstein Barr, where it was that disease where people were just exhausted. Yeah. And they were just like so tired that they couldn't go to work. They couldn't. It's like, that doesn't get talked about anymore. The way it did. It was such a news story back then of like this thing that people were just kind of like falling ill with and inexplicably.

And I, yeah, I just wonder, I wonder, I also kind of go like, they're bioengineering food. Right. Like, you know, that thing of people always go like, Oh, when I was growing up, nobody had a gluten. Right. It's like, right, because we were eating food from the ground. Yeah.

Like that was before they, you know, like it's not the same or like, because it wasn't reported or because, yeah, because we were eating a more balanced diet. It's not like it just wasn't fucking there. Yeah. It's like the chemicals and the, I don't know, it's, it's so scary. It's chemicals, chemical weapons, politics, the way things like you just can't know things. It's scary. It's scary in every direction.

Modern life is very scary. For real. That's why we love true crime. That's right. It's explainable. It is. Exactly. That was really fascinating.

I also just, I'm like, I don't want us to be spreading your hysteria. No. No. Of course not. I mean, that's why I'm like, hmm. True it, yeah, but nobody in the government listens to this podcast. I think we're fine. True.

True. That's true. I hope. Okay. Or at least aren't getting their facts here. No. No one gets our facts here. We're the show for people who know the facts and are here to tell us the facts.

That's right. We are. After the facts. After the facts. The facts of life. Okay. So, this story I'm about to tell you this week, my friend, Kerry O'Donnell, who you know well, he is the co-host of the podcast, Sexy Unique Podcast, with Laura Marie Schoenholz.

And he has told me about it for a long time because his family members knew the victim. And so he was like, have you ever heard of this? My whole family knows about it and like, and I thought when he told it to me, I thought I knew which story he was talking about. But then he was like, he suggested it to me again. I go, Kerry, I did it. And he goes, no, you didn't. He goes, you did this similar one and he's like, this is why you want to do this one.

And he explained it to me. So, yes. So, thank you, Kerry, for the suggestion and this is the murder of Martha Brailsford. Okay. The sources for this story are an episode of Your Worst Nightmare from the Discovery ID Channel, an article from Salem News by Julie Manganus, an unsolved mysteries wiki about Martha Brailsford, an AP News article with no byline, a UPI article with no byline, a Tony Rogers article for AP News, an article by Laurel J. Sweet for the Boston Herald,

an article for pethios.com by Matt Oren, an article for The Telegraph, the local newspaper by Ann Stewart, Lori Cabot's Wikipedia page, and an article for Boston.com by Justin A. Rice, an article by Wong Gonzalez for the New York Daily News, and a vice article by Haley E.D. Hausman. This takes place in and around Salem, Massachusetts. So, it's the middle of the night on July 12, 1991, and Boston fairy captain Brian Brailsford is laying awake in his bed waiting for his wife, Martha, to come home.

So, Brian's job takes him away until late at night or early in the morning hours, but it is very rare that Martha would be out so late, especially without calling Brian and letting him know. So after a while, he's like, maybe she got into an accident, so he calls the local hospital to ask if she's there. The staff there says no one by the name of Martha Brailsford has been admitted. And then shortly after midnight, Brian calls Martha's twin sister Muriel. She works as a librarian in Cambridge, and of course, the sisters, you know, are very

close. They talk all the time. So, Brian asks Muriel when she last talked to Martha, and it was that morning. And Martha had told Muriel she was going for a walk around Winter Island, which is something that she did habitually. She had a dog named Rudy. She walked her dog all the time, and that was one of her, the places she liked to walk. So Muriel is, of course, immediately scared that her sister isn't home and might be missing.

Brian assures her everything's going to be all right. So, now it's about one in the morning. Brian goes to retrace Martha's usual walking route on Winter Island and look for any sign of her. He doesn't find anything. He extends the search to nearby beaches and parks. He basically looks for his wife all night long until eight in the morning on July 13th. At that point, he finally decides to contact the police.

So, at first, the police aren't convinced foul play has taken place. According to them, there's a number of reasons why Martha may have left, including that she could have a secret lover that her husband doesn't know about. But when another two days go by and there's still no sign of Martha, the police finally officially declare her missing. So, it's standard procedure. They interrogate Brian first as the husband. They question him to figure out if he's a suspect.

He swears he has nothing to do with Martha's disappearance. He has an alibi for each day that she's, since she's been gone. He's been sleeping at home, working, searching for Martha. And upon further investigation, all of these alibis check out. But after Brian's questioned, a friend of Martha's goes and basically speaks privately with the investigators to give them information that she doesn't want Brian to know about. She tells police that Martha had told her that she planned to go sailing with a friend named Tom on the day of her disappearance.

The friend was afraid to say anything in front of Brian for fear that he would be jealous or assume the worst when the friend was like, I don't think it was anything, but I just need you to know that this is like a piece of information he doesn't know. Okay. So, we'll talk about Martha for a second. Martha Brailsford was born May 8th, 1954 in Hackensack, New Jersey. She's an artist and an interior designer. And in the early 80s, she starts dating Brian Brailsford.

He's a fairy captain in Boston, which I don't know why I think that's the most delightful and darling thing. Hotest. Hotest. He smells so good. I was like, the sea all the time. The sea. And I, you know, like kind of like hairy chest, maybe a pipe, maybe a hat, just like awesome.

So they get married in 1982. And then in the late 80s, they moved to Salem, Massachusetts, because Martha loves the ocean. She wants to live closer to it. And she's also a descendant of the town's founder, Roger Conant. So Salem seems like the perfect place for them to settle down, right? And she fits right in. She does her work as an interior designer there. She makes lots of friends.

And of course, she enjoys her regular walks, sometimes with Rudy, sometimes by herself, all around Winter Island, which is actually not an island. It's attached by a strip of land, but it's very close to being in a separate island. Okay. Okay. So after police get the tip about Martha allegedly sailing with some man named Tom, the police track this friend down and they identify the man as 46 year old Tom Mamoni. So Tom's an engineer for the Parker Brothers Game Company, and he's also an avid sailor.

Police find Tom at the docks at Salem Willows Pier. He's working on his sailboat, the counterpoint, and they ask him about Martha. He admits to knowing her and he says they often walk their dogs together on Winter Island. He says he really appreciates Martha's friendship because things have been rough for him since his wife passed away from cancer the year before, and then he moved to Salem after his wife's death. When police ask Tom if he's taken Martha sailing recently, he says he is not. The last time Tom remember seeing Martha was the Tuesday before when they went from one

of their usual walks. But things are not adding up because why would Martha's friend mention a sailing trip with Tom to the police if Tom claims the trip never took place? But there's no hard evidence against him or anyone else, so the questioning basically ends there. In the meantime, with Martha still missing, her friends and family form a search party looking all over the area for her. Because Martha's very popular, she's described by her neighbors as being lovely and friendly.

Everyone's worried, everybody wants to help look for her. Everyone from local residents to the state police, to the Coast Guard, they take to land, air, sea in search of Martha, but no one can find her. Carrie's mom and Nana were on that search. No way. Yeah. I'm sure it's like... She was a friend of their...

Yeah, small town. Yeah, they knew her and loved her and she was a friend, yeah. So police go back and question Tom two days later, and this time they visit him at his home. When they knock at the door, a woman answers who identifies herself as Patricia Mamoni, Tom's wife. Uh-oh. The one who's supposed to be dead from cancer.

Yep. So Tom quickly appears behind Patricia. He tells officers he'll speak to them privately. He ushers his wife away and assures her everything is going to be all right. So then Tom tells police he fibbed to Martha about his wife dying because he wasn't interested in her. Yeah, the fucking police about it, you dumbass. Right.

And also, if you're interested in a woman, why would you tell a lie that disgusting? Truly. When your wife is fucking alive. Like and lives on the island. Like what are you expecting? It's just, it's so, it's beyond the pale in terms of what you're trying to set yourself up as. Right.

With that person. Right. It's like not even like we're separated. She's fucking dead? Like what? And you're supposed to pity me and you're supposed to, you're supposed to feel beholden to what I need from you because I'm in a terrible place right now. Tom admits to having gone sailing with Martha on July 12th.

But he claims that he was trying to keep it under wraps so that his wife wouldn't find out. He then says that after their day of sailing together, Tom dropped Martha off on Winter Island so she could go for a walk by herself. So again, police are not buying this because if Tom had dropped Martha off on Winter Island, she could have just walked home. It was close to where she lived. And as suspicious as it all seems, without any sign of Martha or any hard evidence against

Tom, they can't arrest him. So, but it's so suspicious and it is just so odd that they're like, there's this woman has disappeared into like into thin air and this guy's the only connection. They don't know what to do. This guy is a liar. Yes, he is the only connection. It's such a bad, insane look. The things and the things that he's kind of copping to, to me, it seems like he thinks

they're not that big of a deal. Or he thinks he's gonna trick the cops. Yeah. Like admitting like, hey, look, I was interested in her. So I told this disgusting lie like, right, man. Okay, so this is the part that I love and that is amazing, desperate for a lead or answers of any kind. And being that this is the infamous town of Salem, Massachusetts, the local authorities

decide to reach out to the high priestess of witches in Salem, Lori Cabot, Lori. So listen to this shit. Let's talk about Lori Cabot. She's born in, we woke up Oklahoma in 1933 and she has her first psychic experience as a child. When she envisions a seven year old boy falling off his bike and onto a train trestle. So she tells the boy's mom that she is she that she thinks that's where the kid is. The mom calls the local sheriff, the authorities find the boy on the train and have to rescue

him off of it. Yes. So that's how it's that's how it starts. So four years after that, Lori moves to Boston with her mother, where she meets a witch at the Boston Public Library. Sounds great. Because where else would you? This is a fucking children's book right here.

This is genius. And she ends up studying with this witch until she's 16 years old. And then by the late 60s, 30 year old Lori, she's divorced, she has two kids, so she decides to practice witchcraft again. It was like out of her life for a while. She actually was a dancer at the Latin Quarter nightclub for a while, like she had a really fascinating life. And then she was kind of settled down and got back into her Wiccan practice.

So she was living in Salem, and she actually was living across the street from the mayor. So she kept her Wiccan practice as a secret because she didn't want any trouble. She didn't want to get, you know, she didn't want any extra attention. Historically, this is a bad town to be a witch in. Yeah. She knew. She knew to cover tracks. But then after her black cat gets stuck in a tree for three days, she finally reveals

she's a witch. She needs her cat back for her witchcraft, and she basically gets some locals to help her rescue it. And basically this story, the way it comes out in the newspaper, I don't know if like that's the newspaper version of the story. But basically the picture of her clutching her black cat gets in the newspaper, it becomes like a local news, then national news. She winds up on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson talking about witchcraft and practicing

witchcraft. Amazing. She also opens her first witchcraft store, The Witch Shop with two peas and a knee. In 1970, which is like, of course, perfect year, which becomes a hotspot for tourists and witchcraft enthusiasts and probably practicing witches and Wiccans in Salem, right? So it's also very smart, thematically. During this time, she begins teaching witchcraft, so basically what she teaches is it's a practice combining magic, astrology, environmentalism, but it's all in a scientific manner.

And she teaches it at her shop as well as at Salem State College, Wellesley College and at Harvard. Wow. She faces a lot of opposition from conservative Christians, but she asserts that true witchcraft is only used for good as black magic comes back on a witch threefold. So in addition to teaching classes, she writes several books on the subject, including The Power of the Witch, The Witch and Every Woman, oh, there were just two, Harry Potter and the classic children's book, Harry Potter.

Her work in using magic for good dramatically increases Salem's tourism. And today, more than 250,000 tourists visit the town each October. Why haven't we been there? This is my biggest question. Yeah, we didn't take the time like we should have. No, we should have. We will. We'll move there.

Okay, great. In 1977, the governor of Massachusetts, Michael Dukakis, grants Lori the Patriots Award, which is an honor given to civic leaders, distinguished civil servants, community leaders and others who are dedicated in a significant way to improving the lives of their fellow citizens and their community. And he names Lori Salem's official witch. And she later renames her third and final brick and mortar witchcraft shop, The Official Witch Shop, in honor of that title.

Love it. So that's just a little behind the scenes about Lori Cabot. So I love that, right? So basically, police go to her and say, can you help us? We really, we need, does anyone know? And I would, this is actually the story right here is where I wish I could go and zoom in and pull out and see what cop knew Lori Cabot existed. What cop knew her from some bar or something or, or he was a secret warlock, like what

some believer or his mother would go to her on a weekly basis and be like, I need good spells to keep my son safe if he's a cop or his wife was like, we have to find Martha. You have to do anything it takes. Go ask Lori Cabot. Yeah. No, she knows. And I'll so invite her to Thanksgiving. Oh, you're right.

Oh my God. I love it. Okay. So police give Lori Martha's name, address and date of birth. And so she takes this information and she has basically a ritual that she does. I don't know the details of it, but she goes into a trance. And she will later say that she saw Martha out on the water with a man. She sees the man make a sexual advance at Martha.

But as soon as Martha rejects him, the man hits her in the head with a blunt object. She sees the man tie a weighted belt around Martha's waist and bind her in rope with an anchor attached and throw her overboard. Oh my God. So Lori tells authorities they're going to find Martha's body in the water with an anchor still tied to her body. And she believes they'll find her near a small island and they'll be able to see a lighthouse in the distance from where Martha's body will be found.

Oh, chills. Yeah. So this vision is so disturbing and so specific that police go back to question Tom yet again. And wouldn't you know it? Tom changes his story yet again. This time he says that yes, he did go sailing with Martha, but after a rogue wave knocked her off balance, she had fallen overboard. And when he tried to save her, he was looking in the water and he couldn't see her anywhere.

So he couldn't save her. Police asked Tom why he didn't report the accident when it happened. And he tells them he panicked in the moment and he was too scared to say anything. So now the news is circulating that Martha may have been somehow lost at sea. And then basically, as people start talking about that, a woman named Rosemary Farmer comes to the police station with some information. She tells police that she knows Tom Mamoni and that she'd taken two sailing trips with him herself.

The first trip she says was fun and the second one was a nightmare. So Tom had given Rosemary the same story about his wife recently dying of cancer. So of course, she felt so bad for him. And she believed he just needed a friend who's just like a sad, lonely man. But when he basically gets her on the boat, he tries to take advantage of that sympathy and tries to have sex with her and she rejects him. And basically after she rejects him, she felt so unsafe that she almost jumped overboard and swam back to shore herself because he was scared her so badly.

But before she can do that, Tom backs off, turns the boat around, brings her back to shore. What a sick fuck to take a woman in the middle of the water. There's no escape, right? And yes, it's the kind of thing that I think you wouldn't think that way about a date like that. No. Because a guy with a boat is what?

He has money, he's that's it's kind of like you're preppy, you must be kind of successful. Oh, I was thinking of a fucking like dingy. Oh, no. This is a sailboat. Oh, it was like, okay. It's very white, ready. It's very, you know, it's very Ralph Lauren fucking spary top cider shoes and a sweater. And it's like, there's a kind of affluence aspect to it, which going along with that,

there's like an inherent trust, like a rich guy wouldn't blank, blank, blank. Right. A rich widow who's like, heart is broken. Yes. He's playing the wounded. Yeah. The wounded man. Okay.

So Rosemary decided not to file a police report after this because she just wanted to put the whole thing behind her, totally understandable. But now she's so afraid the same thing that happened to her has happened to Martha with a much worse ending. Yeah. Good for her for coming forward. So. Okay.

Then on Thursday, July 18th, about 11 in the morning, a lobster man named Hooper Goodwin is fishing off the coast of Marblehead, Massachusetts, which is just east of Salem. When something gets tangled up in his line and when he hoists the lineup, he finds a woman's body wrapped around the body is a weighted scuba belt and an anchor tied to her by a rope and off in the distance, visible from the spot where the body is found as a lighthouse. The entire scene is just as Laurie Cabot predicted down to the last detail. The bodies decompose so much at this point, because it's been underwater for so long,

it's basically just a skeleton, but investigators are able to use dental records to confirm that it is the body of Martha Brailsford. The autopsy reveals that she most likely died by drowning, although she did sustain at least five blows to her skull and jaw. So it was a violent attack and he put her in the water alive, weighted down. Horrifying. Oh my God. It's clear that whatever took place was deliberate and violent.

With Martha's body recovered, police are finally able to get an arrest warrant for Tom Mamoni. So the police go to Tom's house to arrest him, but he's not there. He's already made a run for it only minutes before the authorities had shown up. Tom's wife, Patricia, however, is at home. So the police tell her that if she knows where he's going, she needs to tell them immediately. She has no idea where he is. He left without an explanation and she's devastated. She has had no idea that her husband has been harassing these other women.

She had no idea that he was saying that she had died of cancer. And it turned out Tom had been lying to his wife for years. He told her he held several college degrees. That was a lie. He said he had been in the army. He never served. And when police ask her about the cancer story, she reveals that Tom had been married three times before he married her and that his second wife did have cancer, but that she had survived

it. He couldn't, I mean, suspicions abound about him and the way he treated his wife. You've got to imagine, right? Like, I don't want to... Horrifying. I mean, yeah. Just awful and a compulsive liar. Yeah.

And clearly violent. Me saying my favorite thing, clearly a sociopath. So she tells police she'll help them find Tom in any way she can, but she really does have no idea where he may have headed now that he's on the run. She didn't have any theories about where he might have gone. So what do police do? They go right back over to Lori Cabot's house and ask her to help them find Tom. So she takes his name, his birth date and his address.

She goes back into a trance state and she has a vision of Tom shaving off his mustache. She tells investigators that she believes he's making a run for the Canadian border. And so to help slow him down, Lori casts a spell over a straw doll that she makes of Tom. She wraps the doll in a white cord and she sees that he's going to do something stupid to get himself caught before he's able to cross the border. And two days later on Saturday, July 20th, 1991, the state police in Maine get a call from a local caretaker about a strange man that's been lurking outside one of his cabins.

And when police respond to the call, they find Tom Amoni in a black sedan parked just outside the cabin. He had fled north to Maine and just shy of the Canadian border, he decided he was going to break into a nearby cabin to rest. So he gets discovered at the cabin and he's arrested by main state police for breaking and entering. But when they look him up in their system, they find that he's wanted for murder in Massachusetts.

So the main police hand Tom over to the Massachusetts authorities and he is held in prison on a second degree murder charge. Okay. Right. So Tom Amoni's trial begins in 1993. He sticks to his rogue wave story asserting that he's an excellent sailor and they tried his hardest to save Martha, but that ultimately he was no match for the sea. This does not explain how Martha ended up with a weighted scuba belt around her waist

and an anchor tied to her. So it's kind of stupid that he thought he was just going to stick to his own lie. Totally. The prosecutors put Rosemary Farmer on the stand and she testifies about her experience with Tom aboard his boat, recounts how he made sexual advances toward her and about how unsafe she felt until he returned her to shore. So the violence of this man, Rosemary Farmer basically came right up against that exact same situation.

And for some reason, he just didn't have the explosion that he had when Martha was on his boat. It was so frightening. Like she just, she was right there with the exact same thing and was so scared she was going to jump overboard away from him. That's so terrifying. And there is a second unnamed woman who tells a similar story. So basically there is a pattern of Tom's predatory behavior.

And what Kerry told me, his Nana testified in this trial, yes, the family went there and the Nana testified because Martha's dog, Rudy, was found tied up, like, I think at the docks or wherever. And basically the Nana said she would have never left her dog for that long. So chances are it was like, jump on my boat, we'll go around the harbor or something. She wasn't planning on having a sailing trip with him, she just tied her dog up. Don't bring the dog. Members aren't allowed because she probably knew that that dog would have fucking defended

her. Yes, I bet. Right. Good point. Yes. So the evidence against Tom is overwhelming. The jury finds him guilty of second degree murder of Martha Brailsford and he is sentenced to life in prison.

So in 2006, after 15 years in prison, Tom becomes eligible for parole and at his parole hearing, he again maintains the story about the rogue wave. Dude. But the board members don't buy it, he's denied parole, he returns to prison and over the course of the next few years, Tom defends himself at two more parole hearings. His stories are riddled with lies and at one point Tom even tries to pin the blame for Martha's death on her husband, Brian. So her husband, Brian, has been in attendance for all of these hearings.

He calls out the ridiculousness of Tom's claim saying Tom should definitely be in prison for the rest of his life. Poor man. I know. That's so horrible. But the parole board agrees and with one board member even calling the proceedings an exercise in futility. In his third and final attempt at parole in 2012, the parole board chair calls Tom a pathological

liar. He had it. It just, it never worked. I mean, it wasn't working. It's almost, I know this sounds crazy, but it's almost good that he keeps his stupid fucking lie up because when you accept responsibility, that's when parole is likely. But if you keep, if you take no responsibility, keep bullshitting like you fucking are. Yes.

Like no parole board. Which is the classic, the classic move of associate path, which is I'm smarter than everybody. I'm going to outsmart this. Yeah. And look how wronged I was or whatever. Yes. I'm the victim.

Yeah. In March 18th, 2017, the now 72 year old Tom Memoni succumbs to a chronic illness that he'd been battling for several months and he passes away at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston. Author Margaret Press, who wrote a book about the case entitled, A Scream on the Water, A True Story of Murder in Salem, says this about Tom's death, quote, although his death won't undo any of the harm he caused, I hope that the families who were so tragically impacted by his life can now in some small measure put this sad chapter behind them.

And Carrie told me that there is a seashell water fountain in the town of Juniper Beach that was erected in Martha Brailsford's memory. And that is the tragic story of the murder of Martha Brailsford and the powers of the high priestess of witches, Laurie Cabot. Damn. Right? Yeah. Why did you think you had done that one before?

That doesn't sound like anything you've done. I don't know because I'm losing it because I'm very tired. I feel like there was maybe there was a story of a woman who was taken on to a boat and disappeared. There was no, obviously no, which, which element or anything like that. We need more which element stories. So just the idea where it's this woman who has powers and she's like, yes, I will help you. Apparently she helped the police after that was the first time they'd ever gone to her

for to help. And they went to her a couple of times after that and she helped with other cases. But the idea that it's like, if you would like the idea that witches are like evil and this and that and it's like, no, no, they're very powerful women with vision. And if you actually, you know, go to them with respect, they could actually help you. It's just like dreaming. I feel like we've been burned our generation of because there were so many like psychics in the 80s who like came forward to try to help with these fucked up cases that they

had no fucking business being even part of and did very like negatively impacted them in a lot of ways. There's a lot of bad people, a lot of con men pretending to have rights and doing it for the money and the psychic friends network and all that stuff that yeah. So to hear a positive one where something actually took place that like helps everything and was correct, I mean, more than anything. It's very like it makes me it gives me good feelings. What are those called?

Me too. Happy me feeling. Yeah, that might that might be the feeling of happiness or that kind of like, you know, I don't know that that kind of because Carrie told me and it was after it was after Halloween and he was like, you could have done it for Halloween. And I was like, shoot, why didn't I why didn't I listen to you? It's so weird. But I think it was just like that.

I don't know. And I think it's also really sensitive when people when it's like a friend of the yeah, Carrie said that he and his mom were doing something one day. He was one year old. And he they went to Martha's house to go pick something up or go look at something. And his mom and Nana were some of the last people to see her alive. Oh my God. So I think I was afraid to do it wrong or to do it in a way that

disrespect or something when it's that close, you know, I think it's a good idea. But it's like, you know, it's a lot. We're always careful. It's a lot careful about that. We try to be. And you know, it's like, then we get distracted and we're talking about Pringles. And it's like, you know, that's our little brain. That's respect of Pringles.

We're human. Also, this, you know, what this made me think of it's unrelated, but there's an antique store in Petaluma. And one time I was looking through it and there they had a this little white book and on the cover in like embossed gold writing, it just said white magic. And I didn't get it. I think it's because I was broke at the time, right? I would kill for that.

I mean, it looked old and it looked like a book of like white magic spells. Oh, did I tell you that sounds amazing? Did I tell you that I stole that kind of tarot cards from a Barnes and Noble when I was in high school? And then someone was like, that's bad luck. You can't steal tarot cards. And I was like, well, okay. And then just like left them on a table somewhere for someone else to buy.

Someone just just burning sage all around. Yeah, it's fine if you find them from a fucking shitty, delinquent teenager who stole them from a corporation. Now I'm like, well, it was a corporation. Shouldn't be selling tarot cards. It's all about that energy. It's everything's about energy. It was bad.

It was bad energy. It was bad energy going in a positive direction. That's right. Wow. That was a, I feel like that was the best Thanksgiving episode we've ever done. I don't remember any of the others, but I feel like, yeah, exactly. I don't either, but I do feel like we just represented the heart of America and the best way possible.

And one of the things that are the things that are good about this country, which is we made one of the worst national holidays into something a little better. We hope you have a wonderful day, whatever way you celebrate, whatever you're doing. Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving. Thanks for hanging out with us. Yeah, deal with your family or don't, it's up to you. Or go get some Pringles and just be like, I've never had this flavor before.

Yeah. What day is it? It's Thursday. Who fucking cares? Yeah. Also stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye.

Yeah. Yeah. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Yeah. This has been an exactly right production. Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton, associate producer Alejandra Keck, engineer and mixer Steven, Ray Morris, researchers J. Elias and Hailey Gray. Send us your hometowns and your fucking arrays at myfavoritmurder.com.

And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at myfavoritmurder and Twitter at myfavemurder. And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch or to join the fan cult, go to myfavoritmurder.com. And don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe.