My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 305 - You Heard It Here Last

Episode Date: December 16, 2021

This week, Karen and Georgia cover the murder of Amanda Milan and the Toronto Circus Riot of 1855.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's Truly Criminal. Hello. Hello. And welcome to my favorite murder. That is Georgia Hartstark. Thank you. That's Karen Kilgarov, drinking something out of a cocktail shaker. Out of a Lagunitas silver pint glass. Pewter pint glass. Pewter. Is that some kind of coffee concoction? This is some nice PG tips tea. But it's in a cup that keeps it, keeps your hot stuff hot and your

cool stuff cool. Insulated. Doing it. We're, you know, the citizens of Petaluma and those historically associated with Petaluma are very proud of our Lagunitas brewery. Oh, are you guys Lagunitas? Yeah. Yeah. Hi. Hi. I've known you six fucking years. Get to know me. You know I represent Lagunitas brewery. It is a great beer, I will say. It brought IPA to the masses. That is what Petaluma, IPA and eggs, that's what we're all about. It got everyone drunk and gave them a lot of protein. That's what, that's their promise to you. That's our promise. We were like, hey, give eggs a break. Do you remember the give eggs a break at a camp to break because there was a rumor or like a thing in the 80s and right that there was like eggs are bad for you.

There's too much cholesterol in the like eggs. I represent their one where like eggs were behind bars and then they got released. They were in fucking jail. Eggs were in jail. They just were eggs with legs. Yes. And they were like, give eggs a break. And then they're out of jail door opened and they were released from jail. It was so, it wasn't great. It was pretty stupid. But that was back when, you know, it was the same around the same time when they were like, everything needs to be fat free diet. And then they would start saying things like gummy worms are fat free, but it's like, right, that's not the, they would start putting it on things. So everything was kind of suffering nutritionally from like, you couldn't have fat anything, you couldn't have any

cholesterol or whatever. But then it was also like recently with like, it's gluten free and it's like, well, it's milk. So you don't actually, is gluten is milk, right? You don't need to put it on the fucking container, but like water had a gluten free fucking. It doesn't come into play, but, but it's almost like people are now declaring whereas, but I think in the 80s people were doing it like they would be like this soda is fat free or whatever, but it's still that doesn't make it a diet thing. Well, that was like, that was when I was like, eat grapefruit for every meal and you'll be skinny. And that means you'll be happy. Goodbye from the National Nutrition Society, from the National Grapefruit Board. There's always been a lot of, I'm just sick of big

grapefruit trying to tell my body how to feel how many grapefruits it needs. Like I know, like my body will tell me how many grapefruits I need seven, seven daily, always including the peel and the pit. I eat the grapefruit. I eat the grapefruit. I eat the grapefruit goes down hard, but it's so good for you. It's so good for your spirit. Well, now we're going to get people, the pizza cutter people telling us that we need grapefruit spoons. Oh, dude, we have emotions are running high this winter season. Let me just say, if it wasn't the pizza cutter overreactors, we had a couple long distance runners who are like, we love carbs. Fuck you. And it was just like, all righty, it sounds like everything's going good. Yeah, everyone's great. Great.

Make a little joke out of the side of my mouth about an extreme marathoner who's running like two marathons a day. Okay. Yeah. And they're not talking about what you were talking about, which is twice baked potatoes. That's not what they're snacking on before the race. I remember when I was like, you know, 12 and then the like, the like soccer on the soccer team and we had like three games in a Sunday because it was playoffs. And we were like, we're going to go home and eat a bowl of pasta. And that's how we're going to like carve up. But it's like, no, no, no, no, no. They don't want you to carboload on fucking cacao a pepe, motherfucking spaghetti. Not day of also. No, isn't the pre isn't the carving up is not supposed to take place a little bit before you

do not like you run out and play a game. I didn't know that. And we won though. I think I punched a girl that day. So maybe it worked. It depends on what the goal was. The goal was she had made fun of me the entire season and we had beat them and we were doing the good game high five. And she moved her hand to like not high five me good game. And I was like, but low a self esteem saddest person in the world, little Georgia. And I fucking socked her in the arm. So hard. It was worth it. How's your self esteem? Better after that. And she apologized. Bullshit. I swear to God, it was the time of my life. And she apologized. She's a popular girl. And she was like being really mean. And she apologized to me for being a cunt that whole time

later. So I was right later. How many years later? Later that day? No, no, no, in high school. Well, yeah, she never made fun of me again. Then violence is the answer says Georgia hardstark. Just punch people when you're upset and when you've had too much pasta. That's the lesson. The time when bullying was okay. You know what I mean? That's when it was celebrated. That's right. That was how that was the only way you're going to get anything solved. Because you want respect. Don't like out with them. Punch them in the fucking arm. Well, and certainly don't turn the other cheek. No, no, you'll get punched in it. That's a that's your that's a great holiday message. Thank you. I'm doing Game of Thrones a

little bit. I think by the end of the holiday break, I'll have like gotten into it into it. Gotten into it or be gotten through it through like another season. I know that I know the term red wedding is a thing, right? Uh huh. And I'm getting to a wedding. So I'm assuming it's going to be red. But that's all I got. Keep your eye peeled. Okay. For some wet red stuff at the wedding. Oh, they have a red velvet cake. Is that the wedding cake is a red velvet? Yeah, then everyone gets one little red velvet cupcake on there on their table. Tower. Yeah, teared cupcakes. Yeah, that's that's the only thing you should expect. Okay, is just decor and treats at this wedding. I'm so excited. Yeah, you should. It's

actually perfect for Christmas Day. You should watch that episode. Okay, here I go. It really is something to talk about a TV show that was on eight years ago. It's fun because there's no such thing as spoiler alerts because if you don't know what I'm talking about, then it's not a spoiler. You should have watched it six fucking years ago. Right, exactly. And also it's kind of out of context anyway. So the odds are I feel like these days the amount of shows and bands and songs and memes that people have to keep up with the worry of spoiler alerts is like, right, but will you be able to keep this in your head anyway? Yeah, probably not. Yeah, my favorite murder. Spoiling shit that you don't need to worry about. Yeah, we're not spoiling anything. You know, we're

bringing up things like you didn't know you had a passion for your pizza cutter until you listened to this podcast. You didn't know how much you cared about frozen pizza. Oh my god. The level of defending frozen pizza when clearly the point was we don't give a shit about it. I mean, Georgia's like I love it. Proudly, proudly loves her Stover's French bread pizza. I'm obsessed, but I'm not going to go down on a fucking in a flame of not using just a knife. It's a knife. Yeah, you just get a knife. Yeah, it's a specialty like your grapefruit spoons. It's a specialty item to go out and spend an extra 15 to 20 bucks on a pizza cutter. Yeah. Yeah, we just had no idea. You heard it here last is I think the point.

We guarantee you'll hear it here last. Oh, yeah. What else is going on? None of it. None of it. I'm going to see Metallica this weekend, like otherwise, nothing. You're so you're so Metallica, you stole from Metallica. That's so me. I'm sorry, I should say Vince is going to Metallica. I'm going with Vince to Metallica. And you're excited for the experience of going to Metallica. Hell yeah. Who knows? Music and lights and so many fucking people. Who knows if they're vaccinated? It's going to be great. Chances are not. There's going to be a lot of I did my own research. Here's what I found. All right, put a fake arm on and got my vaccination into that. Or here's a fake card that you could

buy that I use. Or you can't tell me what to do, man. You're not my fucking dad. What's up, Sheeple? What's up, Sheeple? You've gotten your booster though, right? Yeah. I forgot to ask you, how was your recovery from your booster? I can't tell because I keep sleeping all the time. I'm tired of this year so much that there's a lot of like the second I'm done with the thing, I just run to the couch and fall face first on it and don't get back up. I think you didn't wake up shaking and shivering in a cold sweat with your hips aching. Then you're fine. Then that's just depression and seasonal depression and anxiety. It's definitely workaholism. Oh yeah. Come find with yeah. Also waking up too early and not being able to do anything about it.

And then, and Frank wakes up when I wake up. So we have some special hangout time at 5am. Like we're the fucking, you know, bakers or something. Like you're an old couple who live in Miami. Yes, exactly. Where we're just like honey, let's go. Let's make coffee and watch the sun rise. Me and Frank. Sweet. Aw. It's really irritating. And then sometimes I'll put on a foreign procedural because subtitles always make me go to sleep. Yeah. And I'll try to use that to make myself go back to sleep. But then, and I think we've already talked about this, falling asleep in front of the TV. I then have dreams dictated by the dialogue on the television, which is odd when it's foreign in a different language, because it's more about the intonation. Yeah. And like

sometimes there's yelling in the dream. And I don't, I'm not sure what's going on. Then when I wake up, I'm like, Oh yeah, that was that part. Do you ever understand foreign languages when you're sleeping and you wake up and you're like, I know what they were just saying. This is crazy. No. Oh, no, me neither. No, that's not weird. Oh, like you dreamed that you could understand it. Yeah. Or like, did you ever write a song in your dream? You're like, that was an amazing song. And yes. And I've done stand up in my dreams that I was like, please remember that joke about the penguin. It was so funny and it didn't make sense. And I've also played like unbelievable classical piano in my dreams. A concerto. And like woken up and been like, that is the most disappointing

thing to wake up. But it's really crazy when you're like, that was, like I was playing those, but who would know that but a classical pianist. All right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Where's my phone? Okay. So the last season that just came out of pen 15. Oh, yes. On Hulu. I cried at the end. I never fucking cry at shit like that. But it is like one of it's like the most beautiful show and accurately portrayed how fucking hard it is to be 13. Yeah. And it was like, it's it was such a magical show. I highly recommend it. And then they did an animated version where all their body dysmorphia issues became real. And then they just walked around with the thing that they hate the most about themselves being real. And it just made me think about how you just you have a thing

you hate about yourself so much. And we think everyone's looking at you and being like, oh, that thing is gross about them, but it's just in your head, you know. Yeah. Yes. It takes forever to understand. Yeah, I don't understand it still. I mean, yeah, it's like the way it's that the thing we talked about it recently. It's like the way you interpret the world is your own biased lens. Yeah. And at some point in your life, you have to realize you're wrong. You just have to admit it. Like, you get you get it wrong. And you're getting it wrong. And it's because of like, you're you're justified in the reasons you get it wrong. But you eventually have to let it go. But I follow so many people who love that show, Pen 15, and who talk about it. So I feel like I have like weekly

reminders of like, I have to go back and finish. Because I think I left off near the end of season one. But then I whatever happened, I just didn't I just didn't get maybe it was a little bit too a. I just really suffered around that age so much. Oh, yeah, you're like, yeah. No, it was definitely like it's definitely got those little triggers, like there's like a sexual scene in the last two episodes that reminded me like 13 years old is when I really went off the rails and started fucking living life in a way that 13 year olds shouldn't live. And there was a couple scenes and that that like, definitely remind like, oh, that's what it was like for me. Oh, I forgot how like, inexperienced and young I was like doing meth and

like, fooling around with older boys. It's like, oh, you know, it's these reminders and it's really cringey to watch, but it's also like really beautiful. Their friendship is so lovely and strong. And like, you forget about those and like how important your friendships are when you're that young, you know, and how much they mean. So I recommend it. Yeah, I'm gonna watch it. Do it. What else? Should we do exactly right corner and get into our stories? Let's do it. Okay, let's just wrap this year up. Can we? Finally? Well, let's see over on an exactly right podcast network. We've got season one of Wicked Words coming to an end. This week, the first part of a two episode finale came out with journalist Elon Green. So Elon and Kader

talking about the last call killer who preyed upon gay men in New York in the 80s and 90s. He was one of the most notorious serial killers. I actually read this book and recommended it. Recommended it on the show. It was really well written and it was really, it's very sinister. It's like one of those very plain men who was in these bars, very well lit bars, like almost like piano like Fern bars in New York City, but slowly but surely gay men were being murdered. And this week is the finale of Waiting for Impact. Episode 10 has Dave chatting with another member of Sudden Impact about the vocal group's journey and what a fucking ride Waiting for Impact has been. So incredible. We're so proud to have it on the network. Yeah, Dave Holmes is the king. If you've

ever read his, any of his Esquire columns, he's just such a talented journalist and such a talented host. Yeah, he's hosted podcasts for a long time. So Waiting for Impact has really been an amazing job. He's, it's truly a Dave Holmes passion project. Also, this podcast will kill you, one of the OGs, one of our original acquisition podcasts. We like them first. They're back with a new season and their first episode covers the disease typhus. Oh, I can't wait to hear what they fucking have to say about it. And this week, our celebrity hometowns, we are talking to none other than the Murderino we all know and love, Phoebe Bridgers. She talked to us, you guys. She took time out of her busy touring schedule to talk to us and fuck, she's a dream. She did a great

job. She has a really great story. It was really fun to talk to her. Yeah, listen to that for sure. She's incredible. Definitely. All right, all right. Should we get it going? Yeah, dude. Here up. Baby. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping, and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal, and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy Hello Fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes, and amazing desserts. Karen January is going to be my month

for Hello Fresh. I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since like early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and Hello Fresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. So get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season, three masked men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla,

California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry. As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. So today, I'm going to talk about the murder of Amanda Milan. Okay. So there was a salon article called the crying game by Nina Segal. There's an article also by Nina Segal of the New York Times called watershed of mourning at the border of gender on the blog spot trans griot posted by

Monica Roberts. There is a post called the Amanda Milan anniversary, the New York County district attorney's office news release, the murder of Amanda Milan Wikipedia page, the New York Times Metro briefing, which was compiled by Anthony Ramirez and a New York post article by Dara Gregorian called the X man guilty in slaying of transsexual. And then there's also the New York city commission on human rights legal enforcement guidance on discrimination on the basis of gender identity or expression local law three 2002 that was looked up. Okay. So we start on June 20, 2000. And it's the early morning hours, couple days before New York City's annual pride celebration. And 25 year old Amanda Milan meets up with some of her friends at the

McDonald's at 43rd and eighth in New York Times Square. They're there to get coffee. It's kind of the middle of the night. Amanda is a black trans woman who is also a sex worker. She's just come from a date with a john and she's meeting her friends at this McDonald's getting some coffee before she goes home for the night. She's saving up her money for gender confirming surgery. So about 4am, Amanda leaves the McDonald's and her group of friends, she's heading down to the Port Authority bus terminal to try to get a cab home. But as she leaves and she's out on the street, Amanda's friends see a man approach her. 20 year old Dwayne McCuller had been hanging around the block for about an hour. Now he's saying something to Amanda, but her friends can't quite hear him

from across the street. They do know though that it can't be good because witnesses will later report that they heard Amanda asked Dwayne, do you want to fight? With that, Amanda's friends hear Dwayne shout, get your fucking drag queen ass away from me. I know what you have between your legs. Oh my god. And I'm specifying what he shouted at her as painful and hurtful as it is because it's part of the story of this interaction. So the arguing continues until Dwayne McCuller threatens to punch and then shoot Amanda. And though Amanda is normally one who would never back down from a fight, the escalating violence in Dwayne's threats causes her to just walk away. Wow. And as she does, a 26 year old security guard named Eugene Celestine tells Dwayne that he has

a knife and Dwayne responds, give it to me. And Eugene does. Amanda's friends watch in horror as Dwayne runs down the street after Amanda with the knife. They all start to scream trying to warn her, but it's too late. Dwayne stabs Amanda in the neck and runs off, leaving her to bleed out in front of the Dwayne Reed on 42nd and 8th Avenue. So just right there on the New York City Street. And this was the year 2000? And this is in the year 2000. Oh my god. So there's people standing around. There are some onlookers and a young male bystander who's described as possibly Puerto Rican, rips off his shirt and ties it around Amanda's neck to try to help stop the bleeding. Oh, I have chills. First responders arrive at 4.20 a.m.

They promptly rush Amanda to St. Vincent's Hospital in Chelsea. But at 4.50 a.m. on June 20, 2000, 25 year old Amanda Malan is pronounced dead. Okay. So we'll talk about her life a little bit. She was born in 1974 and she grew up in Chicago, Illinois. Not much is known about her childhood aside from the fact that she had early dreams of becoming a fashion designer. She came out as trans around when she was about 18 and right after she moved to New York City. A few years after her move to New York, Amanda gets herself an apartment at Central Park West and 103rd Street where she lives with her beloved dog Ashley. Amanda is beautiful and hardworking and she works her way up to an elite escort service that sends her traveling all over the

world including Paris, London and Malan to meet with clients. One friend says Amanda is quote often described as a full-figured Beverly Johnson lookalike. So she was a stunner. Yeah. She's also incredibly tough. Anytime someone tries to harass or insult her, Amanda stands her ground, which is not surprising. That's something trans women have to deal with a lot and you know, that's, I think that's, you'd be hard pressed to find a trans person at all who was in any way cowardly because they're constantly being confronted about who they are as human beings. Yeah. So Amanda has two best friends, Cam and Simone. They're also trans women and they've all been a group of friends. They've stuck by Amanda's side for about 10 years and they're

inseparable. But in 1998, after a move to Australia, Kim is found dead at the base of a cliff, presumably from a fall or a push. Foul play is insinuated but never confirmed. Six months after that, Simone moves to San Francisco with her boyfriend. Only one month later after her move, she is thrown out of a fifth story window and killed. Good. Yeah. So Amanda is reeling from her friends' sudden and tragic deaths. She's shaken to her core and she confides in another friend who lives in her building named Patra, who's also a trans woman, that she believes these things, quote, happen in threes and that she might be next. So at first, the murder of Amanda Milan barely makes the news. It gets one small mention in the New York Times Metro briefing and in this

mention, Amanda is dead named and misgendered. The message this sends is clear that Amanda's death is just one in a long line of trans people who die by violent hate filled means. But the LGBTQIA plus community around Hell's Kitchen, they say absolutely not. Hell yeah. They're not about to allow Amanda's memory or her legacy to be disrespected this way. Amanda's friends and chosen family are especially dismayed to see her misrepresented in the wake of her terrifying and violent murder. Her safety and her life matter to them, and they were going to let their city know it. So the nearby Metropolitan Community Church on 36th Street starts hosting a support group for LGBTQIA plus folks called gender people where members meet on a weekly basis

to find refuge and community with one another. And it's here in the church's rec room under the guidance of Minister Reverend Presley Sutherland that the queer community who knew and loved Amanda begin to make plans to honor her with a public memorial service. So with the help of prominent trans activists Sylvia Rivera, who we've talked about on the show, the group organizes a service on July 23rd, 2000, beginning at the Metropolitan Community Church. Reverend Pat Bumgardner leads the group in a sermon. And then others take the mic to talk not only about the tragedy of Amanda's death, but the negligence shown toward homicides of trans folks in New York City. These heartfelt speeches are both political and personal. There's one speech from a friend recalling how Amanda

helped keep her from becoming homeless. So it's very it's a tribute, but it's also it's a real cry for justice. Over 300 people attend this memorial, and then the memorial ends with the entire group marching out of the church and 10 blocks to the site where Amanda was murdered. When the group arrives at 42nd and 8th, they create a makeshift memorial with flowers, poems and photos of Amanda. The beautiful and infamous model Octavia Saint Laurent, who's known for her appearance in the 1991 documentary Paris is Burning. Legendary child. Octavia is a friend of Amanda's and one of the people who speaks at the memorial that day. She attributes the large crowd to Amanda's bold spirit and sense of pride that inspired so many.

In her eulogy, Octavia says, quote, I've been in this community for 30 years. And this is the first time I've seen any gathering of this sort for a transgender or third sexual death will not be the last word for Amanda Milan. So now that they've got the city's attention, New York's trans and queer activists use this opportunity to push for justice and not just for Amanda, but for every trans person who has ever and might ever face a similar fate. And this pressure works. So three arrests are made in the murder of Amanda Milan, Dwayne McCuller, who was indicted for second degree murder, Eugene Celestine, who's indicted for criminally negligent homicide, criminal facilitation in the fourth degree, and criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree. He is the one who

gave him the knife. That's right. Okay, the security guard. And a third man named David Anderson, who helped McCuller flee the scene after the attack. He was indicted for hindering prosecution in the first degree. Eugene Celestine was arrested the same day as Amanda's murder. McCuller and Anderson were arrested the day after when police found them hiding in Anderson's hotel room. So activists pushed to have these charges classified as a bias crime, which would force all three involved to face harsher penalties, sending a message to those who wish to do violence to trans people that their hate crimes won't be tolerated in the state of New York. Given the slurs, witnesses heard McCuller yell at Amanda before he stabbed her, it's only logical to

reclassify her murder as a hate crime. And the framework for reclassifying this crime is already in place because in early July of 2000, New York Governor George Pataki signed a bill that would give a harsher sentence to anyone who commits violence based on one's race, religion, age, or sexual orientation. But because this bill's wording is a bit vague, it's unclear whether or not prosecutors will include trans people in their interpretation of this bill. So Amanda Milan's aunt, a woman named Diane Dyer McKee, who took care of Amanda when she was growing up, did a lot of babysitting and knew her all her life, told the New York Times, quote, it was a hate crime and anyone who's trying to call it anything else is simply wrong. Yeah.

But police spokesman detective John Gimarino asserts that the crime stemmed quote from a dispute and therefore is quote not a bias crime. So considering the lack of priority cases of murdered trans folks, especially black trans people, it's unsurprising that the police would give Amanda's case such a vague and dismissive categorization as a dispute. According to the New York City Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project, in the eight years between 1992 and 2000, there were seven murders of trans people. All of them went unsolved. So Amanda Milan's murder charges are never upgraded to bias crimes between McCuller does plead guilty to murder in November of 2002 and is sentenced to 17 and a half years in prison plus five years of supervised release.

David Anderson, who's the guy who helped him escape, goes to trial in 2001 and is found guilty of hindering prosecution. He's sentenced to one and a half to three years in prison and we don't know the outcome of Eugene Celestine's trial. We just know that it took place in 2003. The specifics were hard to find. Yeah. But because the other two defendants were found guilty for the same crime, right, it would seem likely that he was also found guilty, but there's just no. Wow, record. We couldn't find the confirmation. So Amanda Milan's death has a stonewall like effect, galvanizing the queer community to recognize their need to fight for trans rights. It even prompts Sylvia Rivera to resurrect her 1970 activist collective organization,

Star, the street trans activist revolutionaries on January 6, 2001 to aid in the campaign for including a broader definition of gender in the New York City human rights law. Wow. So that fight pays off in 2002. The New York City Council passes the Transgender Rights Bill, which expands the scope of the gender based protections guaranteed under the NYC HRL, which I believe is in New York City Human Rights League, and to ensure protection for people whose gender and self image do not fully accord with the legal sex assigned to them at birth. As trans activist Melissa Schlartz puts it, quote, Amanda Milan has become not a martyr, but a rallying cry. The activism around her death showed the world that transgender people

belong in the queer community. And the message from activists is that there's no difference between Matthew Shepard and Amanda Milan. The response to her death tells the non queer community enough today the violence stops. And that is the story of the murder of Amanda Milan and the hope and love she inspired in life that inspired her community to take action and make some change happen. Oh my God. Oh, I'm just like, I'm speechless. It's so crazy that it was the year 2000 that that finally got the attention it deserved, which means before that everything, as we know, was treated poorly. I mean, it's just, it's amazing. Great job. Well, if you think about it, it's 20 years ago. 20. And it's like

the beginning of the internet. So there were very few voices and the voices that dominated were voices that basically minimized and marginalized transgender people always. Right. So the idea that, you know, I don't know, the idea that this is a this group of people has gotten the support and the backing that they have gotten over the years. It's just like it's a really important fight. And the fact that they're that it comes into the news as this kind of like a trending topic, right, as opposed to the individual people where these attitudes towards like the other, right, can get trans people killed very often get black trans women murdered. Right. It's not nothing. And it's not a joke. And it's not, it's not just your personal opinion.

It's like, right, that it actually translates to true violence and people have to come together and stand up and protect people who are that vulnerable. It's really important, especially because it was 20 years ago. And yet there is so much more to be done. And it's, it's harrowing, you know, it's, it's harrowing. All right. Well, I'm taking what couldn't be more of a 180 degree turn. I think that's good. I think we go, you know, I think we go like heavy, and then we turn it around to something else. These are, we contain multitudes, we can entertain all topics. But now it's your turn to shine. I'm going to shine, baby. Today, I'm going to talk about Karen, the Toronto Circus Riot of 1855. Oh, my. Oh, we haven't had a good circus riot in here in quite some time.

There has been a circus riot. Come on. That's all you. Don't make me do it. Say it. You're so right. Say it. That's how out of practice I have. Why, we haven't had a circus riot around here in 25 years. In 125 years. 1855. The Toronto Circus Riot. Yes. The sources used today, Karen, are the Toronto Dreams Project by Adam Bunch, who wrote a lot about this. An article from Grunge, the Torontoists, the Baltimore Sun, and the Jeffersonian. And I first read about this late at night on Reddit, of course, on the Unresolved Mysteries Reddit of like, what's your favorite crazy or like maybe it wasn't on. Anyways, the next morning, Hailey Gray, my research, wonderful research woman, and emailed me and said, hey, have you ever

thought about doing the Toronto Circus Riot? And I was like, did you read Reddit late last night? And she's like, yeah. Oh, that's so weird. We're like, fuck. You and Hailey were ships passing in the night. That's right. Because we both saw this story and we're like, what the fuck? Okay. In 1886, Karen, the city of Toronto, or Toronto, I don't know, Ontario is named Toronto the Good due to its conservative population who wants the city's name to represent their morals. So it becomes this like very Victorian, timey, like fucking tip of the hat, updo, you know. That sounds a little defensive to me. No, we're good. Do you need to name the whole city good? What kind of pervy shit are you doing in the afternoons? Well, I'll let you know. Oh, shit.

In the afternoon of time, way back when they were up to some no good. But in 1855, so that's 1886 when it becomes Toronto the Good. But in 1855, way back when the story takes place, Toronto is not like this. It is not good. It is far from conservative. There are 152 taverns, 203 beer shops, and countless brothels. The population is only 40,000. So like every block has like 1500 like places you can drink and debauch basically. So it's like an old timey, you know, Wild West kind of town. Hell, yes. Yeah, that's right. They're right there. Say it. Aren't they right there on a river? Aren't they a famous river town? When you pause, I was like, say what you're going to say because

here we go, pissing them off because literally, I don't even know where I'm getting this idea. Lake Ontario. Oh, yeah, Karen. It's right there in Lake Ontario. Is that Lake Ontario River that everyone loves so much? Yeah. Cheers to Stephen for his editing. Okay. Cheers. Yeah. Canadian cheers to Stephen. Canadian cheers. Oh, boy. So it's kind of a like Wild West type of town. In July, 1855, the American Touring Circus SB House Star Troop Menagerie and Circus, you know, Karen, your favorite show, stops in Toronto. The show features clowns, acrobats, equestrian, trick riders, and exotic animals, including big kitty cats, elephants, and the giraffe.

The circus is only in town for two days and residents of Toronto are super excited because this is a small town. So this is not the kind of place that they usually get exciting stuff like this. Yeah. And this is before all entertainment. So this was like, this is like someone bringing the internet to your town. That's right. Like bringing a visual effects thing and every single person gets to wear it. Yes, exactly. And just like, look, an elephant. No, we're not beating it and chaining it to the wall. Don't worry about that part. No, this big cat isn't behaved because we're whipping it. It's because it likes to be tamed. It likes to sit on a really small human's chair. Yeah. So on July 12, 1855, the circus performs multiple sold out shows. It's a big ticket.

When the last show's over, the clowns want to take advantage of Toronto's fun nightlife. Hell, yes, as fucking clowns do. Yeah. And so I feel like I should let you know the clowns back then are not, well, I don't know how we think about clowns now, but they're not like, we will, we will, you know, squirty in your face, fun time clown, like with clean clothes and stuff. These guys are rough and tumble, like cigar, you know, gross, I bet their teeth are fucked up and they smell really bad. Like these are rough and tumble. These are hobo types. Really? Yeah. They have to like, they do all the manual labor around the circus. Oh, yeah. And then come out of a car. Like they're not chill. Well, they're, they don't, they're not purely entertainment.

They're not artists. They're actually the, you know, it's, I was in a play my first year of college as a theater major and it was called Carnival. Yeah. And basically it was, it was about that and those guys have, there's a name for those guys and it's like a goofy old fashioned name because they were also, sorry, Stephen. No, leave it. I need to know more. Well, you keep going on. I'll find you the name because I, because I, it's on the tip of my tongue, but my brain is, has gone completely smooth. Okay. So don't worry about it. Okay. So they decide that night to go out and take advantage of Toronto's nightlife and they decide to go to a brothel. But little do they know, I know, right? Little do they know the brothel that they settle on,

which is called Mary Ann Armstrong's house on King Street, which is suspected according to newspapers from the day of being a house of ill repute or whatever. So like it might be a brothel, it might not be a brothel, but it's probably a brothel. Mary Ann Armstrong's no way. Oh, your friend Mary Ann? Oh, yeah. That's just my friend Mary Ann from back in the day. No, the reason she never invites you over is because she knows how much you like to party. She's got some parties going on. She knows I'll be jealous. That's right. But here's the thing, Mary Ann Armstrong's house on King Street is also a favorite of the hook and ladder firefighting company, a local fire brigade. Also clowns. Well, here's the thing. At the time, firefighting

brigade isn't a government run fire department like we have today. According to the Torontoist, firefighting at this time is as much a social club as a profession. And the firefighters are often rough and tumble types. Yeah, still like that. So they're basically the same like personalities as clowns, but they're firefighters. Like how did you watch Gangs of New York? Yes. And it's similar to that. So according to Adam Bunch, the journalist with the Toronto Dreams Project, he says, quote, when the fire breaks out, all the brigades who are nearby rush to the scene with their horse-drawn engines to get there first and call dibs. So it's like there's no city funded government fucking get there for it's like get their first privately owned firefighters.

And sometimes if they, are you about to say this? Tell me. If they got there at the same time, they get into fistfights. Here we go. Okay. If more than one brigade does show up, it's not uncommon for them to fight over who gets to put out the fire. You are correct, ma'am. I think I learned that when we did Boston, I think, and I did the Boston fire. Yes. That's right. In fact, two weeks prior to July 12th, this happened to Hook and Ladder, who showed up to a fire at the same time as another brigade. And instead of working together to put out the fire, the brigade started fighting in the streets. This turned into a riot. And so while the building burned in the background, they fought over who got to put out the burning building. The burning, yeah.

Corrigan, which is just a perfect example of modern government. That's right. Real quick, I'm just going to interrupt you and say the word I was looking for was roustabouts. Roustabouts. Roustabouts. They sing, they actually sing a song in the, in the musical carnival called Yes, My Heart. And that's how I fucking figured it out. All right. I had to do it. I'm so sorry. Kilgarov started that in college. I held a long pole that had a bird cage on top of it. And my one like line in the song was I was supposed to say live birds or something. It was like, and then I would sometimes sing dead birds because I thought it was funny. And that's why you dropped out of college.

So I wanted to ruin the play for my own amusement. Okay. Sorry, go. No, you're good. Like I'm doing to your story right now. This is a story, this is a real inner kind of story. So you're all good. Okay. Okay. The police show up to try to break up the firefighter riot and then both the firefighter houses turn on the police and they start fighting the police. So Toronto is having a lot of fun. That later becomes known as the fireman's riot, but that's not what we're talking about today. Okay. The SB house clowns are no better than the fireman though. They are also known to be rough and tumble types. So they have to perform the manual labor setting up and tearing down the whole fucking circus.

So they're super strong and like, take no shit, dudes. And so having the fireman and the clowns in one brothel is an issue. A lot of work for the ladies. Oh, poor woman. So on July 12th, the clowns led by a man only known as Myers show up to hook and ladders favorite brothel. And it doesn't take long for the two groups, of course, to start fighting. Boys. Truly. We don't know how the fight breaks out exactly. Maybe an obnoxious clown says something that pisses off a fireman, a clown maybe cut in line, the bar or the most accepted theory is that a fireman named Frazier knocked off the clown leader Myers hat and refused to pick it up. So they were looking for a fucking fight. I remember that episode of Frazier where, yeah, that this is very familiar to me. That's

right. Niles was like on hand of my hat. Niles was like, Frazier, Frazier. No matter how the fight starts, though, things get out of hand very quickly. And that ends up with two firemen, one being Frazier Crane and the other name Fawcett are seriously injured and have to be dragged out to safety. Well, the firemen see that they are losing and they all fucking high tail it out of the brothel. So the clowns think they win and the clowns stand the brothel continue to drink and party. Everyone has a great time. And that's the end of the story. Oh, Jessica, the lesson is clowns win, firemen lose. Don't fight a clown. Sorry, bye. Bye. Of course, that's not where the story ends. The hook and ladder firemen are not giving up that easily. They go gather a group

of friends, a very powerful and well connected group of friends. So according to Adam Bunch with the Toronto Dreams Project, as I've talked about before, Toronto is run by the something called the Orange Order, which is a small group of Protestant Tory elites, you know, self tanner, wink of the thing, a wink of the old, tipple, the tipple of the old wink, the old river water, Karen and I are both touching the brim of our hats. I want everyone our imaginary hats. Everyone to know that's the order tip of the old, the old, they refer themselves as the orange men and they make sure that all of their fellow patrons who are orange men get the powerful jobs in the city. They're like the masons, right? Sure. They're just white

guys. Exactly. They're white Protestant Tories and everyone gets a job. Basically, they're all Protestants from Ireland, an ongoing influx of Catholic Irish who are coming into town. I don't know. Sorry, leave that out. So pretty much every freedom. It's because Protestants and Catholics don't like each other. Yeah. Does that help you? So basically, the orange men are these representatives of the Protestant Ascendiary of Ireland. And because there's this influx of Catholic Irish fleeing the famine and who are still like having a lot of fun, there's a lot of fights and riots going on between these new Catholic Irish and these Protestants in Toronto. In Toronto. Yeah. They basically brought the fight from the old, the motherland.

Sure. Right over into Maple Leaf territory. That's right. Pretty much every fireman, police officer and politician in Toronto is an orange man. So as you can imagine, they're really close in it. They look out for each other. If you mess with one of them, you mess with all of them. And the orange men are not happy when they hear about what the clowns did at the brothel. And they're like, let's kick some ass. And they went and got a bunch of mimes. And here we go. And here's a fucking fighting giraffe. What are you going to do about it? I mean, this is as cartoony as it possibly could be. It really is. And the next day, you're not going to believe this is a Friday the 13th. What? Yeah. So during the day, a mob of orange men

swarm the circus tents, which are located on the fair green. The orange men tell everyone who isn't a circus ploy to get the fuck out of there. Oh, the orange men then shout their demands to the circus employees. They want that clown Myers, but he won't come out or he might not actually be there. He might have fucking skedaddled knowing there was like trouble in town of ruin. The bearded lady is like, can I help you? Yeah. Exactly. What exactly do you need? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But either way, the circus employees grab whatever weapon they could find and they all go into the big top tent trying to like kind of hide out from the mob, knowing that this isn't good. Right. Right. Meanwhile, the police are notified that a fight is about to break

out. But the chief Samuel Sherwood, he's, you're not going to believe this, a member of the orange order. Yeah. So he drags his feet. He's like, yeah, let's eventually go out there and help the circus people. But don't rush. Not right this second. Yeah. So eventually he and six officers head to fair green to see what's going on. But by the time the sheriff and officers finally arrive, things have escalated and the orange men are throwing rocks at the tent and they're damaging wagons, you know, wagons, either by sending them on fire or throwing them into the nearby lake. So it's fucking mayhem. Okay. The police try to get the men to disperse. They refuse. And when chief Sherwood tries to make an arrest, he's attacked. And it's clear that the six officers

and the chief don't have enough manpower to go up against the angry mob of orange men. So they're like, let's go get the mayor and some more officers. So the orange and they're like, the mayor's in there already. He's the biggest orange men of all. The whole thing is corrupt. He's the bearded orange man. How do we do that? So the orange men continue damaging wagons. They overturn the ticket wagon and smash it to pieces with their axes. They light it on fire. And then at some point, part of the mob sets off a fire alarm, which who knew was a fucking thing at the time, which causes just a toucan over on the side, like in the Flintstone. So the hook and ladder fire crews shows up the guys from last night who got their asses

fucking run out of the brothel. So they got a fucking beef to pick. Oh, right. You don't want you don't want your beef picked. You don't want your beef. No. So they start attacking the fucking actual big top and they take their fire wagons and they hook up the big top to their fire truck and then drive and basically denude. They denude it. And everyone's starting there like covering their tits or whatever. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Then they light it on fire. Oh, I know. Circus employees start to flee the big top. The hook and ladder crew starts running after them with picks and with pikes and axes picks. Yeah. Out of all the employees, the clowns bear the brunt of the attack. They're severely beaten. Shit. The other employees try to find a safe

place away from what's become a riot and some even jump into the nearby lake to be like, fucking, I don't know, get away from me. Home base, home free, horrifying. Yeah. So the big top 10 is on fire. The mob of orange men are running for the next thing that they think they need to fucking ruin the animal cages. Oh, I know. Oh, as they try to light them on fire, the mayor and six additional officers finally do something productive and fight them off and save the animals. The mayor then tries to subdue the crowd, but he's unsuccessful. The only thing he could manage to do is grab an axe out of a fireman's hand as he's about to kill a clown. That's all it does. It's basically game of thrones, but with clowns and firemen.

Clowns and firemen. Yeah. It's the red wedding. I'm assuming. Yes. Yes. Yes. Guessing off of nothing. There is definitely a bunch of circus stuff at that wedding to keep your eye peeled inside it. Karen lied to me. The madness doesn't end until the mayor calls in the militia. And once they arrive around 2 a.m. and they had got by the fucking riot had showed up at like during the day. So by 2 a.m. the crowd finally runs off. The circus shockingly packs up and gets the fuck out of there. Yeah, I bet they do. Yeah. But the public is outraged over the riot and how their city treats it like the one fun thing in town. Yeah. And to them it's clear there's some corruption in the police force and the public. Yeah, maybe the public demands an

investigation into the force and their role in the riot. But all the officers who had been sent to break up the riot magically can't remember any of the orange men's faces who were part of it. They say it was too dark to see anyone's faces. Interesting January 6th. Eventually after the investigation concludes 17 people are charged in the riot but only one is convicted. So just one person is responsible for burning down the circus. Turns out Gary Gary over there. Fucking that guy. He'll start any riot at any moment. He's just a wild eyed youngster. Drop of the hat. He'll fucking start a riot. Gary. Reactive. Just a reactive man. Very orange. Very orange. But so the public is outraged about this fact as well. They feel

like a cover up has taken place which is like no shit. It has. And so riots keep happening because nothing's been done to punish the corrupt police force. A few months after the circus riot, a big riot breaks out between the orange men and the Catholics. Just all of them. Yeah. And just like the circus when the riot is investigated, none of the officers can remember who was at the scene. So within months of the orange men, Catholic riots, the Toronto public is so fed up with corruption that they elect a different mayor for the first time in more than 20 years. A member of the Liberal Reform Party. We're like, get this guy out of here. Yeah. Get this orange guy out of here. Am I right? Am I right? We've been there. We've been there. And so

with a new mayor, the city council suggests that the police force be completely reformed. They're like, hey, you know, it'd be great if we could have some people we could rely on. Just some people that actually do the job. You know. Yeah. The thing. And the government of Canada West, which is basically the Ontario government agrees. And years later, after many political obstacles, every member of the Toronto police is fired. Oh my God. A new force is established that resembles the type of force Toronto has today. So if you're going to visit Toronto, don't let the story stop you. It's a beautiful place. We love it. Niles and Fraser Crane no longer serve. No. They're there to welcome you as our Kit Kats and some really friendly people. Toronto becomes more tame and

boring under proper Victorian rules and residents no longer have to worry about the orange men having control of the city. But somehow the story of the riots that broke out between corrupt firefighters and rough and tumble clowns has never been turned into a movie. What a mistake. And that is the story of the Toronto Circus Riot of 1855. Oh, shit, dude. I mean, I never heard anything close to that. Who plays who's in that? We have to cast the Canadian. And that is how Cirque du Soleil was founded. It's so true. Oh, the feats they went through to get away from the riot that day. Oh, Jesus. I think Timothy Chalamet should be in there as a, like a young, he's like the young Harlequin clown. Oh, yeah. Oh, you want him to be Fraser Crane? Is he Canadian?

No, I don't think so. Oh, okay. Well, we can put him in there anyways. I'm just saying, you know. Just say. I just want to say, can't I say? I wish you'd say. You know what's really funny? I thought there was a chance and I'm actually going to do this now that I think about it because I heard long ago. And so this was probably in the early 2000s. I went to see Charles Nelson Riley do a one man show at the Falcon Theater in Toluca Lake, California. Wow. If you don't know who Charles Nelson Riley is, you have to watch match game. He was a legendary comedic performer of the 50s, 60s, 70s. I'm not, I'm not googling anything right now. What are you? Not Google. You don't know Charles Nelson Riley? Oh my God. Yes, he was on. Yes, you do.

Spore Square. What's it called? Smash game. Match game. Yes. And him and, him and Brett. Yeah. But so he does this one man show and it was unbelievably great. And he told all these stories from his childhood. And one of the stories was him and his cousin were going, they wanted to go to the circus. His mother said no and they took money and they ran out and, and his mother yell as they ran, like basically they got in trouble and they just ran and went anyway to the circus. And his mother yelled, I hope you, I hope it burns down or something kind of crazy. Like, yeah, the mother yells that and then they're sitting there. They snuck into the circus because they didn't have, I guess the mother wouldn't give them money. And as they're

sitting there, the fucking circus tent catches on fire because they used to put oil on top of the canvas for some reason and it was highly flammable. And the main circus tent caught on fire and Charles Nelson Marilena's cousin escaped and all these people died in the fire. I've heard about circus fires before, like big top circus fire, but I didn't know that's why. That's crazy. Yeah. He explained it. It was such an amazing, like it was a breathtaking story the way he told it, but he was right there. And the only reason they got out is because they didn't wait to go out and exit work because everyone was trying to stampede out the exits. They just ran and pulled up a flap and like, we're like, we'll just go out the way we came in. Oh my god.

And they escaped. Yeah. Dude. Maybe I'll cover that one. Maybe I'll cover Charles Nelson Marilena's story. I wish he would. In the new year. No. He passed away. Sorry. Sadly. Sadly. One of the greats. Ah, truly. I think this might be our last podcast of... This is our last recording. This is our last recording. However, we pre-recorded the rest of this year for the holidays. It's all new and exciting, guys. We just, Karen and I, just going to take a couple of weeks off, but it's all new to you, baby. Yeah. But to us, we're about to go into Christmas vacation. We are. Such a thrill. It's so exciting. And we have a couple more celebrity hometowns that are brand new coming out. So there's new stuff coming through the end of this month. Yeah. We have to work.

Justify. Why do I have to justify? Justify. Very hard to keep you entertained throughout this whole, this winter holiday season. Don't worry about it. We've done it. We've done it already. We're done. Here's some more episodes. Like, I have to be like, don't worry. We've got you and everything's fine and we're not lazy, but I'm going to be lazy as fuck. What are you going to do? What's your dream? Yeah, we don't have to say any of that shit. People are right there with us. What's your dream for the next couple of weeks when we have off? I would like to watch some movies that I haven't seen because I haven't gone to the movie theater. I haven't seen new movies. I don't even know what movies have come out. So I'd like to just sit and watch like a two hour movie. Yeah. Get caught up.

I mean, sitting and watching is like the operative words of what we're going to do. Yeah, I think so. And just not being on Zoom. That's my dream. Yeah. Dude, let's not do it. I'm going to do I'm going to watch Game of Thrones and watch TV and the great and I'm going to cook a ton of stuff in the air fryer. Oh, nice. Yes. And that's basically it. Like, I don't have to do Christmas. Vincent and I are going to have some Christmas dinner, but like nothing fancy. It's just going to be nice. Yeah, we're just doing small family Christmas and just really being chill. Yeah. And like not, you know, taking it as easy as possible. Right. And seeing Metallica for sure. And of course, we're following Metallica all around the nation, which we always, I mean,

you guys know we do that all the time. We've done that for most of our lives. We've pretty much been on the tour of us with the guys. I'm sorry, but did you know Metallica heads? What is that? Metallica heads. Did you know Metallica kicked off their 1980 tour in Petaluma, California? Why? Because baby, they were, they're a Bay Area band. Oh, that's right. Yeah. There was some serious, we had pretty major metal bands in the Bay Area in the 80s, Metallica. Cool. It was like Quiet Riot. No, Y and T. There was a band called Tesla, I think that was from the Bay Area. Or at least they were. Do you just name them? I know, I know. George, you can't do this shit when you go to the Metallica show. Please. I'm going to wear an

ACDCs from San Francisco shirt. No, you're going to get this shit. You're going to be like a clown at a fireman convention. They're going to beat the shit out of you. Oh, we didn't do our announcement for our donation this week. We have spent the month of December making donations to charities that we like just because it's the time of year to give to maybe encourage other people who have it to give, if possible, no judgments, no shade. This week, we're donating to the Trevor Project. That's the world's largest suicide prevention and crisis intervention organization for LGBTQ young people. We're giving the Trevor Project $10,000 to continue their work and they're an amazing foundation that's done really beautiful, unbelievable work for

the queer and gay community. We couldn't do it without you guys. Thank you so much for supporting us and for listening and for supporting us. You've supported us twice and you've listened to us once and we'll never forgive you for that. I love it. I love it. Make a list of things you're grateful for in this past year or make a list of things you want to get done in this next year. Yeah. Let's be goals oriented. Let's be positive. Let's get muscular. I'm going to get super muscular in 2022. That's right. We appreciate you guys. Karen's going to get fucking ripped. I just want to stay strong and I want to stay. I want to get healthy. I want to be strong and I want to fight the fight. That's right. You heard it here last. Right? This is the last place you'll

hear pretty much anything pressing, but it's the first place you'll hear. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye. Great job. Great job. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton, associate producer Alejandra Keck, engineer and mixer Steven Ray Morris, researchers J. Elias and Hailey Gray. Send us your hometowns and your fucking arrays at My Favorite Murder at gmail.com. And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder. And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult, go to My Favorite Murder.com. Rate review and subscribe!