My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 309 - Not Counting Is The Key: The 6th Anniversary Special!

Episode Date: January 13, 2022

This week, Karen and Georgia cover the murder of Aundria Bowman and the history of the insanity defense. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder, the sixth anniversary episode. Oh my god! What? What have we been doing for the past six years? Six years just bullshitting around with some vocal fry? How dare you? So many things have happened in the past six years. Life changing, mundane, amazing, kind of cool, very cool. A pandemic. Oh, a pandemic. There's that. There's that one too. You know, so many memories. It's been a real ride. That's for sure. Yeah, I feel

like we're gonna look back on this in six more years and be like, why did we do this in other six years? And then be like, talk to me at the year 10 anniversary. Yeah, yeah. Oh wait, no, that would have been year 12. Right. But who's counting? I think not counting is the key. Yeah. I don't fucking, I never pay attention to anniversaries. My mom just texted me, your brother's birthday is tomorrow. Like, I can't get, I cannot get anyone's birthday. Even my nephews, I'm just so bad at that. Vince and I have to like pull his wedding ring off and look at the date inscribed in it to know when our wedding anniversary is. Well, it's good that you got that done. At least you know yourself well enough to be like, I need this reminder. It's

who I am. Yeah. Who cares? I don't give a shit. You're thinking about other stuff. Do you know what? I celebrate every fucking day. Like it's Father's Day. That's what my dad always says, every day is Father's Day when your grown kids want to talk to you. When you, when you actually still communicate with your father. Yeah. It's a true celebration. I mean, it is, that is the way to live. That's the way to be. Truly. How are you being? How are you living? How are you dealing? I'm still a little bit on vacation. So I'm doing really good. I'm really happy for you. I'm like for 2022, I feel the difference. I'm insisting upon feeling a difference. I think there can be a difference. I don't think we have to be the victims of our circumstances.

I think we can get proactive in even just the way we approach everything. But that's easy for me to say because I get to smell the salt air every day. So when you showed me the view from the balcony where you're saying of the beach and the palms swaying in the trees and the palms swaying in the trees. Yeah, I'm going, I'm at a very special resort that's tree. There's trees planted inside palm trees. Look, it's a Dr. Seuss resort. It's fucking all kinds of crazy things are going on. It's called the Lorax. And we all just hang around with starbelly steaches and we get it done. I love it. No, I mean, I think, I think things have been so stressful for every person on the planet. Yeah. That the trying to be every day as Father's Day with your attitude is, is you

got to be keeping in front of mind. Yeah, for sure. Like how grateful, you know, it really helped me in the past like week is talking to my therapist and being like, I have this to-do list and it makes me want to take a nap. I can't fucking deal with anything. I can't do the, I can't do any of it. And she was like, why do you think you have to do it all at once? And so like this is so simple, but I did one load of laundry instead of the three that I had to do. And I fucking did it and it took me two days of turning the dryer back on and turning the dryer back on. Yep. But I did a load of laundry and it was fucking fine. I don't have to do it all at once. No, one a day. Yeah, I heard that's called it's a, it's paralysis by analysis where you just get to or perfectionism. You just

get to, if I can't do it all, then I shouldn't do anything at all. And that's not, that's not it. You got to chip away. Yeah. Chip away. Paralysis by what? Neuralysis? Paralysis by analysis, which means you just overthink. It's another way of saying overthinking. Got it. I like it. Instead, we're chipping away like little chipmunks, chipping away. That's how we got to six years. Right? Week after week, just one week at a time, panicking about the next week constantly. Yeah, sure. Yes. But hey, isn't that the zest of life? The panic. Oh, we have to add writing a book now? Great. Let's do it. Oh, yeah. Why not? Sydney and Australia while we're writing a book? Great. Pilot on. Yes. The answer is yes. Shonda Rhimes, a year of yes. We're doing it.

Every day is Shonda Rhimes day when you try to hear them. That's what we say. You know we say that. That's right. Are you fucking watching the show of one of my favorite books that I mentioned a million times here, which I think you read, Station 11? I had started Station 11, yes, on HBO. It's really beautifully done, except for they got to the part where the traveling theater group or I was like, this is too much like college. I have to dip. Sorry, got to go. It's so like college and like in the book, they're like, you know, first violin has beef with second flute because he once had this thing about that and like, you know, the fucking actor from Shakespeare used to fuck third guitar and so they don't talk to each other like there's just so much

even in the end days, there's beef. Of course. And drama. Yeah. But no, everyone I know, especially writers love it and talk about it a lot. So I know I have to keep going. And Mackenzie, what's her last name? Phillips Powers, Austin Powers. Mackenzie Austin Powers. Mackenzie Davis. That's right, Stephen. Thank you. Mackenzie Davis is so fucking incredible in it. She's such an incredible actor, sector and the little girl who plays her as a little girl. I love it. And it's not even true to the book, which usually, of course, drives assholes like me crazy, but I still it's still like works and it's perfect. Yeah, but really, it's, it's well, it's beautifully shot. I don't know the book, but from what I experienced, the first episode hooked me right in and then I went

right along. But also, and this is the kind of thing to keep in mind, if you're in a pandemic and you're watching a show about apocalyptic end days, you have to be a bit, you know, go gently into that. I bad night. I could understand why people would be hesitant to watch it, but it doesn't feel like now. It feels like, you know, good, different or even Himmish Patel, who plays the character Jeevan in it is who's like the initial guy who tries to save the dude on stage who was also in that movie yesterday where everyone forgets the Beatles existed and he he's so fucking good. I yeah, he's great crush on him. He's like such a great actor. He's really good and he's really good in that show. Yeah, love him. Yeah. Good job, everybody.

Good job. Love it. Had to say it. I want to tell you about podcast I just stumbled on. It's real short. It's really satisfying. I heard about it from my friend and on a hear the great can't the pride of Canada and on a hear. Of course, it's a podcast called sweet Bobby. And it is a catfishing story unlike anything you've ever heard in your life. It's holy shit. It's really something and you have to listen to it. And it's the host is Alexi Maastres. I hope I'm saying his name right. It's really great. What's the like, can you give us a like a brief? I know you probably don't want to do any spoilers, but like a little giveaway. I'm not going to do any spoilers. Spoilers. It's just someone gets catfished and the host Alexi actually says it in the beginning. I'm about to

do the thing you should never do in a suspenseful story. I'm going to tell you right now if she's being catfished because that's how not even that that's not the shock. It's like it's really worth listening to and hearing the story because again, it goes into why do people do what they do? It reminds me about like watching a TV show in the pandemic about a pandemic and that would be hard. But I'm so afraid of catfishing that it's almost like hard to watch a catfishing or listen to a catfishing story. Horrible. It's your most vulnerable. You think whatever it is, you think you're falling in love with a person who isn't that that's everyone's fear. Yeah. Like we all have trust issues in whatever way. And that's that kind of thing where they're telling you

everything you want to hear and you think this is it. I finally met this person and it's that's not even a real person. I love the stories that we're all coming to and like all of us kids who were raised, you know, who grew up in the 90s and early 2000s at the beginning of having like real access to the internet and realizing that our best friend from Florida who we used to chat on aim with all day and all night because they were just like us was not a 14 year old girl like you who just wanted to escape her small town. It was a creepy fucking dude. Yeah. Sorry, Belinda doesn't exist. Yes. I mean, that's I never had to experience that. I was so past that I was too old for that kind of growing up online thing. Yeah. So this story to me is even

more shocking because it's like, oh, Jesus Christ. Yes. This is yeah. Okay. What's it called again? It's called Sweet Bobby. Okay. I'm listening right now. Really good. Goodbye. Hey, Karen. Do you know the podcast? Do you need a ride? It sounds familiar. Well, this week the incredible hosts have none other than Gareth Reynolds of podcasting fame from the dollop podcast on and God, I freaking love that guy. He's so funny. He's a real gem. He's very good at podcasting. Yeah. There's also this podcast will kill you. They're covering endometriosis this week. Such an important topic. And then bananas has an exactly right crossover episode this week by having the guest be Alex and Elizabeth from the true beauty Brooklyn podcast, which is also on exactly right.

Right. And if you want to go fucking deep into the matrix this week's true beauty Brooklyn podcast guest is Dr. Dan from the parent footprint podcast, which is also on exactly right. That's right. Jesus rabbit whole time. Also, we've got some merch. There's a new urinal cult t-shirt design that we really enjoy that you might want to go take a look at. It's cool. It's cool. Looking for a better cooking routine with meal planning, shopping and prepping handled. Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello Fresh meals are

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free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder 20 and use code murder 20. Goodbye. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast, Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton Serial Killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work

with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music exclusive podcast, Killer Psyche Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. All right. All right. Well, shall we get started with our six-year anniversary episode? Are you ready to do it? Are you ready to show your work six years worth? Oh my god. It'll look insane. Okay. I think I go first this week. Okay. And this week, I'm covering the murder of Andrea Bowman. Okay. This one is, I had not heard of it. It's not famous. There's a little famous element to it, but it's a pretty compelling,

pretty upsetting story as they all are what we're here for. Yep. So the sources for this story are the Attivus Magazine had an article called The Girl in the Picture by Niall Capello. There's a Fox 17 West Michigan article by Carrie Haringa and Michael Martin, The Holland Sentinel. There's an article by Carolyn Myskins. There's the Charlie Project Archives. And there's an Oxygen article by Gina Tron about it. And there's an AP article. There's the Wikipedia page of the murder of Andrea Bowman. There's multiple Holland Sentinel articles by Carolyn Myskins. There's a News Channel 3 article by Samantha May. And there is an article by Austin Denian and Angeline McCall for Fox 17 West Michigan. And there's an Inside Edition article

with no byline about the murder of Kathleen O'Brien Doyle. So this starts, it takes place in Holland, Michigan in the fall of 1988. And 14-year-old Andrea Bowman suddenly starts hanging around school long after the school day has ended. She eventually confides in her teachers that she's actually afraid to go home. So the school staff calls police and social services. And when they question Andrea, she tells them her father, Dennis Bowman, has been sexually assaulting her. So a social worker and a police officer escort Andrea home to confront Andrea's parents, Dennis and Brenda, who flatly deny their daughter's accusations. And they actually explain to authorities Andrea recently found out that she was adopted and that they believe that this is just

a rebellious kind of phase based on learning that information and she's kind of going through it. So they basically say their daughter's lying and that this is just, you know, this is her rebelling. Now, Andrea's been known as a rebellious kid in the past and that she's run away once before and gone and stayed at her friend's house. So this rationale actually satisfies the police and social services. But that means she was trying to escape her parents. Yes. Yes, exactly. She's not a bad kid. She's fucking leaving her home. She's trying to get out of a horrible situation. But I think it, yeah, so I get it. I get it. It works and the adults are believed and the children are not believed. And essentially they leave Andrea at the Bowman's house and nothing happens. Soon

afterwards, the family moves from their house in Holland to a trailer that's kind of way outside of town in Algin County, Michigan. So then on Saturday, March 11, 1989, while Brenda's at work, so this is like roughly six months later, Dennis Bowman comes home from visiting family that weekend to find that Andrea, who was supposed to have stayed at home to do homework, isn't there. In fact, she's nowhere to be found. Dennis calls Brenda at work to tell her this news. The two then contact the police to report Andrea missing. Dennis says he believes Andrea stole $100 from his bedroom dresser before packing her bag and running away. And the police open an investigation into Andrea's disappearance and they classify her as an endangered runaway. So we'll talk about her a little bit.

Andrea Michelle Bowman, whose birth name was Alexis Miranda Badger, is born on June 23, 1974 in New Orleans to her 16 year old biological mother, Kathy Turkanean. So both Kathy and her 19 year old husband, Randy, they've left their own like dysfunctional home lives to make a new life together in New Orleans. Kathy's determined to give her daughter a better childhood than the one that she had. But after a few months of raising Alexis as basically a teen mother, her teen husband, Randy starts cheating on her and neglecting the baby and it all kind of falls apart. So with no other options, Kathy leaves Randy and goes back to her hometown in Virginia to live with her mother. But her mother doesn't help Kathy with this baby. She's constantly telling

Kathy that she can't raise Alexis on her own. And basically, Kathy becomes convinced of that. She's worried her mother's right. So she decides the right thing to do would be to give Alexis up for adoption when she's just five months old in the hope that someone else can give her daughter the life that she deserves. Yeah. So Alexis spends 16 months in foster care until Dennis and Brenda Bowman, who at the time are living in Virginia, adopt her in 1976. And they rename her Andrea Michelle Bowman. And soon after they moved to West Michigan. So then in January of 1988, the beginning of the year where the problems start for Andrea at school, Brenda gives birth to a baby girl named Vanessa. And 14 year old Andrea is very protective of her little sister and she

spends her free time caring for the baby as if it were her own. And Andrea has reason to be a protective of her little sister. Because in 1980, when Andrea was just six years old, Dennis Bowman is arrested for the attempted rape of a 19 year old woman. Oh my God. This woman tells police that Dennis forced her at gunpoint into a wooded area in West Michigan and threatened to quote blow a hole right through her if she didn't do what he said. Luckily, right in that moment, a passing car distracts Dennis and this woman is able to jump on her bicycle and get away and go to the police. Holy shit. He's arrested the same day. And this woman immediately identifies him in a line up. Dennis ends up cutting a deal with the prosecutors. He pleads guilty to assault with

intent to commit criminal sexual conduct. And he sentenced to five to 10 years in prison. He serves the minimum of five years. He's released in 1986. And he's still on parole when Andrea disappears in 1989. So rumors swirl around town that Andrea had been physically potentially like allegedly physically abused at home. When she was in middle school, there's kids that say that one day she got on the bus and she was bleeding her wrist was bleeding. And they weren't sure if it was self harm or some heard that it was because she was trying to break back into her house after her parents locked her out. No matter what, the stories are disturbing or some clearly something going on in that house. But given the

era and the general mindset of this Michigan town, people minded their own business. No one looks into it. No one questions the bowman's about it. That's such a crazy little detail right there. She claimed she was being sexually assaulted. They bring her home. And the dad is on parole for attempted sexual assault. And they still don't believe her. Yes, they don't connect it. Yeah, it's like they're not looking into it. Or the parents are so convincing, right, that they don't think to look into it. I mean, the fact that those things weren't weren't that that wasn't linked. I mean, because it's the late 80s. So there's not computer systems. There's no internet. Yeah, it's not they would have to

have all those files, you know, they would have to know. Right. Right. Okay. So in the weeks following Andrea's disappearance, Dennis and Brenda move once again from that trailer outside of town to a new house in Hamilton, Michigan. And over the next few months, Brenda calls around to Andrea's friends. She's asking them if anyone has seen her. And they all say no. She also makes several phone calls to the police saying she's gotten tips from people saying that they've spotted Andrea around town. Police look into every tip that Brenda gives them. None of these sightings are ever verified. So now it's 1993. And Andrea's been missing for four years. So this is the year that the band Soul Asylum releases the music video for the song Run Away Train, which if you

grew up in this time, you know, this video was a song about missing children and the video actually featured photos of 36 children who were missing at the time. And Andrea Bowman is one of those kids that's featured in the video. Oh, my God. This video is on constant rotation on music video channels. And this video leads to finding 25 of the 36 missing kids, holy shit, which is amazing. And like what a beautiful thing the Soul Asylum did for those for those families and for those kids. But sadly, Andrea is not one of the kids that gets found. Her case remains unsolved and eventually goes cold. So then in 1998, Dennis Bowman is caught breaking and entering the home of his former coworker, 20 year old Vicki Brink in Ottawa County, Michigan. So Vicki's had several

break-ins at her house. So she installed a security system. And when the alarm goes off, a police officer arrives to find Dennis Bowman exiting her back door. He tells the officer that he's been staying with Vicki. The officer believes him and let him go. Yeah. No, without even asking her. You know, I don't know if she's not, it seems like she's not there. So it takes a second. That's what I'm saying. So when she goes, when Vicki tells the officer Dennis is lying, they go to Dennis's home, they search his property, they find a duffel bag containing Vicki's stolen lingerie, a black sweatshirt, a mask and a short barreled shotgun. Oh, fuck. Yeah. So Dennis is arrested on the spot. He pleads guilty to the breaking and entering charge, but not before

giving the court letters from several people defending his character. Ew. And those letters are from his boss, a member of his church, his sex offender group counselor, the principal at his daughter Vanessa's school and his wife, Brenda. Yeah. Never defend someone. You just don't know. He also writes the judge a letter himself in which he says, quote, I am the father of two lovely daughters, 125 the other 11. And I feel that being a parent is one of the most important and sobering things a person can undertake. End quote. Fuck you, dude. Oh my God, I hate his guts. He fails to mention that 25 year old daughter he's talking about has been missing for 10 years. So these character testimonials actually end up helping lessen Dennis's sentence for this crime.

Okay. So then in 2009, an amateur friends, ex-sketch artist in El Segundo, California, named Carl Koppelman is scrolling through NamUs, which is the national database of missing persons and unidentified bodies when he comes across a Racine County Jane Doe. So this Jane Doe is found in a Wisconsin cornfield in 1999. She'd suffered broken bones and there were signs of sexual assault, but a combination of rain and decay made it difficult for authorities to determine an exact cause of death or identify the body. So when Koppelman plugs this Jane Doe's basic traits into NamUs, her hazel green eyes, her pierced ears, the short reddish brown hair, he gets a close match to Andrea Bowman. The Doe's approximate age at the time of her death aligns with the age of

Andrea, what she would have been in 1999, which is 25 years old, plus the location where this Jane Doe was found is a four hour drive from where Andrea was last seen. So this is all enough to prompt investigators to start looking at this cold case again. But they need a relative's DNA to see if the Racine County Jane Doe is, in fact, Andrea. So authorities track down her birth mother, Kathy Turcanian. When they talk to her in 2010, Kathy's life is completely different than the one she was living when she was a teen mother who was forced to give up her child. Now she's graduated from nursing school and she lives a very comfortable life with her new husband in Massachusetts. She'd always wondered about Alexis, her daughter Alexis, who's now Andrea,

and she'd always hoped that she was happy. So getting a letter saying that her daughter may have been murdered is of course shocking and heartbreaking. That's just so sad that like you think giving a child up to have a better life and then someone wanting a kid and stepping up and adopting, that they'd still be monsters. It's worst case scenario for someone who's trying to do the right thing for this baby because they love them so much. So of course, Kathy's more than willing to provide a DNA sample, but she also wants to know more about what happened to her daughter. So she scours the web for answers and she sets up a Facebook page and a classmates.com page for Andrea to gather information and she and Carl Koppelman end up connecting

through that classmates.com page. And as Carl and other amateur detectives interested in Andrea's case provide more information about the Bowmans, Kathy decides to submit a Freedom of Information Act request to learn more about Dennis Bowman's record essentially. And when she learns about these crimes, she immediately suspects he's involved with Andrea's disappearance, but she knows that she has to find proof. And then she dealt another blow. Those DNA results that came back on the Racine County Jane Doe, it's not Andrea. No. Right. The bodies later identified as a young woman named Peggy Johnson, but Kathy really believes that Dennis Bowman has something to do with Andrea's disappearance. And she's now determined to figure out what happened to her daughter.

So Kathy and Carl Koppelman continue their web sleuth investigation. They go to Michigan together several times to talk to the police about the case. They search for old acquaintances who might have more information and they also go and scope out the Bowmans house. And from a distance, they can see the backyard of the Bowmans house. And Kathy spots a patch of cement on the property. Yep. And she is so afraid that her daughter could be buried underneath it. Oh my God. So in September of 2013, Carl and Kathy attend a missing persons event organized by local law enforcement called Missing in Michigan. And during one of the group sessions, Kathy and Carl spot Brenda and her daughter Vanessa. No. Brenda Bowman. Brenda tentatively approaches Kathy

because she's aware of these accusations that Kathy's been making about her husband on Facebook and elsewhere online. Yeah. And this turns into a confrontation, which turns into a screaming match. Kathy demands that Brenda tell the truth about her husband. Brenda defends Dennis, of course, saying that they did everything they could to cooperate with police and to try and find Andrea. It's just, it's a horrible, it's like worst case scenario for something, an event like that, where they're trying to solve problems and it's horrible. Oh my God. So meanwhile, now while all that's going on, cold case investigators in Virginia are making headway on a seemingly unrelated case, the 1980 unsolved murder of a woman named Kathleen O'Brien Doyle. So Kathleen was a 25 year

old aspiring novelist and she was the daughter of a US naval officer who was married to a navy pilot. So Kathleen's husband was deployed in 1980, leaving her alone in their Norfolk, Virginia home. And there she was found raped, bound and murdered. So in 1983, the police thought they had their culprit when serial killer, this stupid motherfucker, Henry Lee Lucas confessed to her murder. Motherfucker. But when DNA testing proved that to be a lie, Kathleen's case ran cold. But as genetic testing technology starts to improve in the 2000s, cold case investigators run Kathleen's crime scene DNA samples through their new DNA database system, and they get a list of 30 potential suspects. And now all they need to do is collect the DNA

from each of the suspects to see if they can confirm a match to someone on that list. That seems like a huge undertaking. Yeah, that's quite a job. Okay, so in 2019, and this is how much these cold case investigators stayed on this, it's pretty amazing, they meet detectives from Michigan at a conference. And when they show the Michigan detectives the suspect list from Kathleen's murder case, the Michigan investigators immediately recognize one of the names, Dennis Bowman. Wow. When they put the timeline together, they discover Bowman was still living in Michigan at the time of Kathleen's murder. In fact, that's when he was out on bail and awaiting trial for the attempted rape of the

19 year old West Michigan woman. So Kathleen O'Brien Doyle's murder took place while Dennis was on a two week leave for his Navy Reserve Service requirement that he was fulfilling. So while he's out on bail, he goes to do his Navy Reserve Service. And then he's on leave for that service. And this is all taking place in Norfolk, Virginia. For fuck's sake. And it turns out, but this is the part I really love, getting Dennis's DNA turns out to be easier than the Virginia investigators could have imagined. Because it turns out that Brenda and Dennis had gone to the Holland Michigan police station a couple years prior to complain about the online harassment from Kathy Turkanean. So while they're at the police station to lodge that complaint,

the police offered Dennis a bottle of water, which he took and drank and left there without a second thought. And those cops saved that bottle and they kept Dennis's DNA sample on file. So when they fucking knew they will find something eventually, they fucking knew it. They knew. They knew that he had already been prosecuted for sexual assault a couple times. They're like, let's just slip this in the back pocket. Yeah, we might as well. Cover it in its room. Oh my God. Someone was very smart. Yeah. So when Virginia investigators test the sample, they find a direct match to the DNA found at the scene of Kathleen's murder. Oh my God. So on November 22, 2019, Michigan police in cooperation with the Virginia authorities raid the now 72 year old Dennis

Bowman's home and arrest him. And he admits to Kathleen's murder, but he claims he only meant to rob her. But when he saw her there, she surprised him. And he decided that he had to kill her. It's her fault for surprising him. Right. Yes, exactly. He was so innocent is that he was only going to rob her, even though he has a history of assault and rape. Fucking piece of shit. Dennis pleads guilty on June 10, 2020, to the first degree murder and rape of Kathleen O'Brien Doyle, as well as to a related burglary charge. And he's given two life sentences for her murder and an additional 20 years for that burglary charge. But Kathy Tarkanian still wants justice for her daughter. Yeah. And luckily, it doesn't take long for her to get it. Because

while behind bars, Dennis Bowman starts copying to more crimes. What? The first one he confesses to is the 1979 rape of an unnamed 27 year old Michigan woman. Apparently he broke into her home, bound and gagged her, then raped and robbed her. And although she was able to give a thorough description of her assailant, Dennis had never been caught. And then sometime around December 2019 or January 2020, in a written confession, as well as in a phone conversation with his wife, Brenda, Dennis finally admits to killing Andrea. Yep. He claims again, he claims it was an accident. His story is that when he came home on March 11, 1989, Andrea threatened to tell more people that he had been molesting her. And they argued and in the heat of the moment, according to Dennis,

he slapped her, knocked her down the stairs. And in that fall, she broke her neck. So then, because he was afraid of the authorities, of course, he takes his daughter's body to a remote barn, dismembers her and burns her clothes. Then he hides the remains under a tarp until the bowman's move into their new home in Hamilton, where he buries her remains in the backyard and covers her grave with a thin layer of cement, which is the exact same slab of cement that Kathy spotted and suspected was the site of her daughter's burial. She was right. Kathy was right. Oh, my God. So when police dig up the cemented area, they find human remains. And when they run DNA tests, it is confirmed that the remains are Andrea Bowman's. And Brenda Bowman is completely shocked

by this discovery. Truly, she had no idea that her daughter's remains, her adoptive daughter's remains, were buried in her own backyard for nearly 30 years. So this woman who was defending her husband, who was, you know, thinking that she was fighting the good fight and that it's so sad. So the first hearing for Andrea's murder takes place February of 2021. So basically a year ago, Brenda admits that when Andrea was alive at this hearing, she admits that Andrea confided in her, that Dennis was molesting her and that she didn't or couldn't believe what her daughter was telling her. And she confesses that she told Andrea, that's a lie and you know it. Well, I hear these stories. I mean, I thank everyone. It's so heartbreaking. And so unfortunately, we hear it over and over

again. It's so sad. Like you're siting with your husband rather than your daughter. Why would she make that up? It's so, it's awful. It's just so sad. So that trial got delayed by COVID. Of course, it got rescheduled for January 11th, 2022. That's tomorrow. Okay, I was just going to look down on my computer like, what day is it? Oh, so when this comes up on Thursday, it'll have happened already. Yeah. But on Wednesday, December 22 of last year, Dennis pled no contest to the second degree murder. His sentencing takes place next month on the 7th. And Kathy Turkanean plans to be there. Hell yeah. Of course. She's also planning on working to obtain custody of Andrea's remains. Kathy still calls her Alexis, by the way, her birth name. Of course. Because Kathy wants to

arrange the funeral and give her daughter a proper burial. And that is the tragic story of the murder of Andrea Bowman. Wow. Wow. That's such a banana story. I had never heard that. Yeah, me either. It's so heartbreaking. It's just so heartbreaking. Yeah. I've a right. Well, great job. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Okay. Well, let's take a lefty, shall we? Okay. And go to one of the topics I like, which is the where it came from things. And this is the history of the insanity defense. Cool. Okay. So the sources used for today's episode are a PBS frontline documentary, Cornell Law School, an Indian Journal of Psychiatry article written by TV Asokan, the University of Missouri Kansas City School of Law, and a Psychology Today article written by Dr.

Susan J. Lewis. So we hear, Karen, I'm sure you know about the insanity defense, a lot, intro crime, and on TV shows and movies. But only 1% of all defendants ever plead not guilty by reason of insanity, which is tiny. And only 25% of those defendants are successful in using the defense. So what exactly is the insanity defense? Well, according to Cornell Law School, when a defendant uses the insanity defense, they're admitting to the crime that are asserting a lack of culpability based on mental illness. And it's an excuse rather than a justification defense. So the idea that someone shouldn't be held responsible for their actions due to their mental state, aka the insanity defense has been around since the 1500s, but it wasn't until

the 1800s that a court actually came up with a test on how to determine a defendants in Sanby. In 1843, a Scotsman named Daniel Mnottin. So it's M apostrophe, Nottin, which is confusing. That's a new kind of name. Sure. M apostrophe. You put an apostrophe in your name, your fucking fanciest shit, right? Mnottin. It's like they're not going to bother with that little C. Mnottin. He's on trial in England for the murder of Prime Minister Sir Robert Peele's secretary Edward Drummond. Mnottin's attorney tells the jury that he should be acquitted because he's insane and has been for years. They tell the jury that two years prior to the murder, Mnottin told the police that the Tories were harassing him, that they followed him everywhere

he went. And he said that they quote, do everything in their power to harass and persecute him and that they wanted to murder him. An entire political. Yes. Group is, is harassing him. This one man. Yes. So obviously that's not true. He's having what's it called delusions. His paranoia continued to grow over the next two years to the point where he decided that in order to end this harassment that he was delusional about, he had to kill the Tory Prime Minister Sir Robert Peele. So on June 20th, 1843, Mnottin waits outside of Peele's house with a gun. And then a man comes out of the house and starts walking down the street and Mnottin walks up behind him and shoots the man in the back thinking it's Peele.

And he does in front of a bunch of witnesses. He's not trying to like keep it secret. Fires the gun. And then it turns out that it wasn't Peele, but his secretary Edward Drummond. Oh, I know what a bummer, right? The defense tells the jury that while awaiting trial, Mnottin was examined by multiple psychiatrists, one of which Dr. Edward Monroe testifies that Mnottin's delusions are real to him and the things he thought were at least actually happening to him. So other psychiatrists testify for the defense saying that Mnottin is insane. Even the two psychiatrists called by the crown, you know, the prosecution say that Mnottin is insane. So he's acquitted in his order to spend the rest of his life in an institution.

The court and press are super fucking pissed about this verdict. They don't feel like Mnottin is insane enough to get away with murder. They basically think he's getting away with murder and like making up an excuse. Queen Victoria asked the house of the lords to come up with a set of requirements a defendant must meet in order to be found legally insane. And so this set of requirements becomes known as the Mnottin rule. According to Cornell Law School, the Mnottin rule requires that a defendant has to prove one of the following two things. That at the time of committing the crime, the defendant was either, quote, laboring under such a defect of reason from disease of the mind as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing,

or two, quote, if he did know that he did not know what he was doing was wrong. Right. So the Mnottin rule really stresses the idea of a defendant knowing right from wrong at the time of the crime. And so the fact that Mnottin did this in front of a bunch of witnesses says that he wasn't aware that it was wrong. And because of this, it's now much harder for someone to be found insane in the eyes of the law because of these two rules. For example, if these requirements existed when Mnottin himself was at trial, he would not have even been acquitted. So the laws don't even pertain to the person it was named after. Following the creation of the Mnottin rule in England, courts in the United States adopt the rules for themselves. But by the mid 20th

century, some states realize that the rule is missing something, which is that it doesn't take into consideration someone's ability to control their actions. At the time, the defendant may know right from wrong, but they are not able to stop themselves from acting. So if that's the case, then there's nothing in the Mnottin rule to allow the defendant to be acquitted. So to take care of this issue, some states started using an irresistible impulse test. In addition to the Mnottin rule, this test basically boils down to the simple question of, would the defendant have committed the crime even if there are policemen standing at his elbow? If the answer is yes, then they should be acquitted. So after a couple iterations of like rules and laws that

are changed, federal judges order that the Mnottin rules be replaced by the moral penal code or MPC. So the American Law Institute published the MPC rule, which basically combined the Mnottin rule with the irresistible impulse test, then added in the medical and psychiatric angle. It says that a defendant cannot be held criminally responsible if at the time in question, quote, he lacks substantial capacity, either to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to confirm, sorry, that's boring, who cares? No, because these are the, it's like the little details of drive down how they figured out how to get to this in the first place, which is the thing that at this point people have exploited. But in the beginning, it had these really good intentions, you know.

It's also that people exploit it, but people also are like, when it actually works, people don't believe it, which is like, well, there's actually like really strict rules to use it. So if it does happen, then you should believe it. It's not like they're fucking letting any asshole use it. Right, exactly. Completely. And you know what it makes me think of too is the Sacramento vampire. Richard, what's his name? Where? Yes. He thought his insides were, you know, he was truly, he had gone, as my mother used to love to say, organic in the brain. Like he, the reality he was living was not the reality we were all living and he was doing things that seemed, that made sense in that very screwed up world that his brain had been showing him.

Totally. He believed what he was having delusions about a hundred percent. I feel like the same thing. And a lot of people argue with Andrea Yates, you know, which is such a, we would never cover that. It's like horrible. And you, you've, you know, she, it's what she did is horrendous, but based on what we've read, it's she, she was not in her fucking same mind. And also this is that extreme postpartum. Right. A thing that never gets talked about, of course, because it happens to women. So it's only, it's in 2021 where people finally start actually talking about, yes, this has happened to me. You know, the ultimate shame is that you're not a good mother. Totally. Or like, you're not also like, I love being a mother. It's the best.

Everything about it. And it's like, no, everyone knows it kind of sucks for the first year. Do they? I don't know. It's just me. Sorry. That's your personal theory. That's your personal delusion. Okay. Substantial capacity around half the states adopt some form of the MPC rule while the other half continue to use a form of the monotonous rule. Then everything changes again on June 21st, 1982, when a jury acquits John Hinckley Jr. after he attempted to assassinate then President Ronald Reagan. So just a really quick recap on March 30th, 1981, President Reagan, and there's fucking film of this, right? Yes, I've seen it. It's crazy. Yeah. He's leaving the Hilton Hotel in Washington, DC. He's just spoke at a conference, so everyone's fucking just

living their lives. Hinckley was in the crowd and was able to fire six shots at Reagan before he was knocked to the ground. And none of the bullets hit Reagan directly, but one ricocheted off the presidential limo and struck him in the chest, puncturing a lung and causing internal bleeding. Reagan almost died, but was saved during surgery and released from the hospital almost two weeks later. What's weird about that is I didn't realize he was hit. I thought he walked away from that, like our friend Gerald Ford and all the times people tried to assassinate him. I think what happened, yeah, because I think what happened was they don't think he's hit. He gets in the car and they drive away, right? And like he feels some pain, like a sharp pain in his armpit

and they realize like he didn't even, they didn't even know he was hit until he was like, what's this? And pulls his jacket up and there's like blood. Crazy, right? Yeah. So during the attack, three other people were shot. Police officer Thomas De La Hante and secret service agent Timothy McCarthy, they're wounded, they make full recoveries, but sadly, press secretary James Brady is permanently paralyzed. Yeah. So at Hinckley's trial, the jury was told that Hinckley was insane at the time of the attempted assassination. He was suffering from delusions where he believed Jody Foster, actress Jody Foster was in love with him. Years prior, Hinckley had become obsessed with Foster after watching the movie Taxi Driver, which obviously it's about Robert De Niro trying

to save Jody Foster's character, a 12 year old girl from being sex trafficked. And at one point in the movie, De Niro's character tries to assassinate a US Senator who's running for president. And so Hinckley starts stalking Jody Foster after this, follows her around, writes her letters, even was able to call her. And when she said she wasn't interested, Hinckley decided he needed to become famous to get her to fall in love with him. And that's when he decided to be like De Niro's character and assassinate a politician. Hmm. Following Hinckley's acquittal, the public is fucking outraged. You know, obviously you can't fucking assassinate a sitting president. They think that Hinckley has found some loophole in the system and they refuse to believe that

being obsessed with an actor is the same thing as being insane. Many politicians and members of the public call for the insanity defense to be abolished. On the other side, psychiatrists say it shouldn't be abolished, just revised. Because obviously there's people who truly need it and it so it needs to be in place. And he qualifies, Hinckley qualifies old school style where if there was a cop at your side, he was shooting into a crowd of cops. Literally, that's a very interesting point. Yeah. And here's my other point that's not really related, but one of my favorite band names of all time is Jody Foster's Army. Have you ever heard of that band? No. JFA. I wonder if they were Bay Area, but they were, I'm sure punk and they, it was the first

time it was like JFA stickers everywhere and then I saw that it was Jody Foster's Army and I was like, I don't care what kind of music they make, this is my favorite band of all time. Oh my god. Let's get t-shirts. Yeah. Go to their, wear their t-shirts to their concerts. Okay. In 1984, Congress answers the call to, what the fuck do we do about this? With the Insanity Defense Reform Act, where a compromise is made. So the Insanity Defense isn't abolished, but it does become more strict. The MPC rules thrown out. My not in rule is put back in place. This guy, man, fucking historic. He lives here. In addition, a defendant can still present evidence of a mental disease or defect, but now he has to also prove that it is severe. So like, I can't go in and be

like, I've been in therapy since I was a kid. Therefore, I didn't know what I was doing when I killed someone. Like that doesn't work. At the time of the murder, you have to be totally, etc. However, a defendant could no longer use irresistible impulse as part of their defense. A few other revisions are made. For example, so the prosecution had the burden of proof before to prove that the defendant was sane. So that was their job to be like that. But now the defendant has to prove that he wasn't sane at the time of the crime, which seems, which is probably a lot harder or a lot, you know, here's an example of the Insanity Defense being used and working the case of Lorena Bobbitt. Hmm. You know this. So on June 23rd, 1993, in Manassas, Virginia,

in the middle of the freaking night, Lorena Bobbitt, who's 24, cuts off the penis of her sleeping husband, John Wayne Bobbitt, who's 26. Oh, you look, you're cringing. It's, it's very upsetting. Yeah. I hate this story so much. I know. I know. Life was salacious in the 90s. You know? Well, and also it was the kind of thing where then it became this certain topic and it was like every joke and you couldn't get away from it. And it's really, if it were a man doing that to a woman and people were making jokes like that, I mean, people would go insane. So like, I just, that whole idea that it's, but it's funny if it happens to a man is really, I think. Right. And it's like, it came from a traumatic event. So how that's not human. The whole thing is an issue. Totally.

So after she did that, she flees the scene along with the severed penis and she later tosses it out the car window while driving along a highway in Virginia. She says she did it because her husband, John Wayne Bobbitt, emotionally, physically and sexually abused her during their marriage and had even forced her to have an abortion. She also claims that her husband raped her on the night she cut off his penis. Her defense lawyer, Blaine D Howard, states that after suffering years of John's abuse, she had just snapped that using that word due to the PTSD and clinical depression, the abuse had caused her, which caused her to have that irresistible impulse in the moment. She's acquitted in 1994 at her trial. And though she's ultimately committed

to a mental hospital, five weeks later, the judge orders her to be released. Through the years, the insanity defense continues to evolve. Someone who has found guilty but mentally ill is still held criminally responsible. But since they are mentally ill, instead of going to prison right away, they receive mental health treatment. But once they're done with treatment, they serve the remainder of their sentence in a regular prison. This differs from the not guilty by reason of insanity acquittal verdict where the defendant receives treatment but is released if and when they finish treatment, which seems a little more level headed to me, right? Depends. Yeah. You know what? It all depends. Oh, it's contextual. All of it. It is. And today,

each state has their own rules when it comes to the insanity defense. The federal government's laws on the insanity defense remain the same as they did in 1984. And that is the history of the insanity defense. I mean, I think it's interesting to look back on the conversation when, as Dave Holmes talks about in his brilliant podcast, Waiting for Impact, the monoculture. We were getting one story from basically one or two news sources about these things and told what to think about these topics. So it was like the insanity defense is bullshit. And whoever was saying that, we're like, yes, it is because that's all we heard. And there was very little nuance or expanded conversation around that. So it was like, oh, these bad guys are using

it to get out. And that's, that's all it is where obviously, as we know, and the longer we tell these stories to each other, these horrible things and the why behind it, it's like, there's a lot of different why's behind stories. And mental illness is a big part of many of them. Well, I think what's, what's changing the conversation and culture is that mental illness is, is, you know, always evolving, but starting to be more understood as something that is rampant in our society, because it was so shamed and hidden. And like, you know, there's the crazy kid in your family, send them away. And now it's like, this happens in everyone's family. There's someone in everyone's family, or there's, you know, you with your own mental illnesses and

your own issues. And we all have PTSD in some fucking way or some, you know, trauma. And it's, I think, hopefully being a little, we're being a little more empathetic these days. And but then also, once that's part of the conversation too, then it's like, so then we can say like the thing that happens a lot where it's like, right, you know, this person went through trauma and that's the rationale behind these crimes, except all the other people who also went through that trauma do not kill. Therefore, we need to really process this in a different way. Like I think that the fact that people are able to speak up and be like, I never did that. And I went through the exact same thing. So that can't be the excuse. And we can't pretend that these are

these, you know, like this people going through family trauma is always this very specialized experience when in fact it's common and lots of people take responsibility and or get help. And also, yeah, back then there used to be, there used to be state run help. We need, we need mental health services back. We need services. So bad. Thanks, Reagan. Fuckin. Well, for our sixth anniversary, should we maybe each do one or two fucking arrays? Let's do it. Okay. Great job, by the way. Oh, thank you. That's really interesting. I think it's like all those kinds of things. I always want to know more and more about them. Thank you. Okay, this one says, Hey, y'all, are we still doing fucking arrays? Well,

if not, I'm still telling you this because it's awesome and we all need some hope. Hell, yeah. I work a side job where I'm a princess for parties and marketing events. Fuck. Yes. Write a memoir, please. And I got the opportunity to work with a local pediatric cancer organization recently. About a month ago, I visited a little girl sick with a rare brain cancer and they weren't really sure how much longer she'd be with us. Well, this last week, I was invited back to see this brave, strong, incredibly smart princess to help her celebrate her fifth birthday. Not only did she beat the odds and make it to five, but she started walking for the first time in a long, long time. A lot of things may suck, but she inspires me to keep

going. Because if she can, I sure as hell can. Caroline. Nice, Caroline. Princess Caroline. Beautiful. Okay, this one, there's no name on this. It's from the Gmail inbox. And it says, my fucking hurray is that after being stuck in my hometown and my mental health suffering because of it, I finally found a job on the East Coast and moved. I left my very supportive family and my equally supportive job of seven years. Everyone I came across agreed that I needed to move so I can grow. Even though I'm not prepared to deal with what a real winter looks like, I'm excited to explore new places, meet new people, and most importantly, keep pushing myself to grow into the person that I want to be. Thank you, ladies, for being an inspiration to try a new kind of

lifestyle. It chills. Yeah. Oh my God, it's so true. It's so true. They're doing it. You have to grow. It's great. Yeah, you got to do it. You got to do the scary stuff. Yeah, a little, what do they say? That it hurt, that thing where one day it hurt more to... Forget it. To stay small. Then it's like to grow. Yeah. You know, that old... Oh. You just sew that on a pillow and it just kind of fades off. Just the thread starts on unraveling as you get to the last word. The W isn't on there all the way. You're just like, you know, that thing where they say, Raderino Kelly Swig, who does all those cool, like funny graphics for us that I put up on Instagram, she'll make a good little stitchy pillow. She always does. She's very funny. Guys, six years.

Thank you so much for being with us this whole time. We could not... We would not be here without you, literally. No. Yeah. And thank you so much for your interest, your support, your feedback. You made us who we are. Yeah. We appreciate you and we'll keep doing it. If you keep coming back, it works if you work it. Yeah, you got to show up and then we'll keep doing these. Thank you for everything. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton, Associate Producer Alejandra Keck, Engineer and Mixer Steven, Ray Morris, Researchers J. Elias and Haley Gray. Send us your hometowns and your fucking arrays at MyFavoriteMurder.com. And follow the show on

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