My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 313 - This is Criminal

Episode Date: February 10, 2022

On today's episode, Phoebe Judge tells Karen and Georgia the shocking story of Pearl Lusk and Olga Rocco.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. See, it's truly criminal. Hello. Hello.

And welcome. To my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hartstark. Thank you. That's Karen Kilgariff. And I'm Phoebe Judge, and this is Criminal. Yes. Oh, it's so exciting to hear those words and see your face as they happen.

What a treat. Yes. So exciting. Well, I'm happy that you asked me to be here. We've been criminal fans for a long time, as you know, and we love the work you do. And so this is, we're very excited when this idea came to light. It was thrilling, and we're so excited to see you and to be talking to you. Yeah.

Well, it's kind of like, you know, you have these satellites out there, you know, you have my favorite murder, and you have criminal, and we hit each other sometimes, you send signals out, and they bounce off each other. And now we finally get to be kind of in the same room, and our worlds are going to collide for a second. Yeah. Imagine. Imagine the most we can to not explode your satellite up, and in any, I feel like I can't

curse too much in this, you know what I mean? Like there's certain curse words I normally use on our podcast that I'm just not going to have. That's not going to fly on criminal. No. They're not going to be having our inaccurate information over on that side of things. I do, in real life, do say bad words sometimes, and it's a little, we hide that all, but I have been known to say something bad, and it's always a little shocking, but it has

happened. Yeah. Can we just get one fuck out of you just to hear, just for the experience of it? Like I spill my water all the time in the studio because I have bottles all around me, and I'll say, like, mother fuck. Oh, great. Yes. Great.

And then we immediately take it out, so no one actually has to hear me say anything like that. That's right. It's not on brand. It's not on brand with criminal and what you've built. Absolutely not. How about you edit those and just send them over to us now on, and we'll plug those in on our podcast.

Like we're like morning DJs and doing it. I'll give you a whole reel, no matter the mood, I'll give you a word for it. Great. Yeah, we'd love different tones and different inflections, and it's just, you know, let's play with it. Or in the middle of an interview, you're talking to some old woman about this amazing thing that she's done that she also got arrested for, and then it's like, well, that's fucking great.

I'm Phoebe Jones, and this is criminal. I love the, I love the like summary of, of criminal, there's some amazing woman, she's done incredible things. But she also got arrested for it. You know how it goes. Fuck. Fuck. And she fucking got arrested for it.

All right. So do you want to explain what you're, what you're about to do? Yeah. So, we have story ideas all the time that we can't do because we can't find someone to tell it because it's too old or no one knows about it. And so we don't get to do it because we, the whole show is built on people who have actual experience with the event or some historian who knows a lot about it. And so we've been, we have this collection of stories that we just haven't known what

to do with. And when we started talking about doing something together, we thought, well, this could be the perfect chance for me to get to tell you one of these stories that we've been really obsessed with but just haven't found anything to do, how to make it an episode. And so we thought that it could be interesting to tell you the story about two women and what happened to them in 1946. This was originally reported in the New Yorker in 1953 and then kind of not talked much about. But it's a really interesting story.

And so that's what we thought we'd do. I tell you about Pearl and Olga and this wild man who entered their lives and kind of ruined both of them. Love it. Love it. I had never heard this one at all, even though it is wild, it feels like it should be like on the level of, you know, the Bonnie and Clyde that gets told over and over again. The experience of this, especially as a person who listens to a criminal, is the podcast

listener's dream, which is you're listening to a podcaster tell you a story, but you actually get to say something back. There's an interactive element that we get to have in an episode of Criminal Essentially is what's going on right now, and it's really, it's really a thrill. It almost feels like Mystery Science Theater, you know, we're in the front row just screaming at the screen. Yes, please, please, Phoebe Judge, tell us a story. Yes.

Well, in the fall of 1946, a woman named Pearl Lusk, she just graduated from high school outside of Philadelphia, moved to New York City. She got a job in a department store. She got a room on the Upper West Side and was kind of living the dream of moving to New York after graduating from high school in a small town and seeing it all. And she was having a ball. She was having a really good time. Her parents lived in Brooklyn and she was visiting them on Thanksgiving and was traveling

home on the subway and a man approached her and asked if she wanted to go out. And she said, I don't go out with men I don't know. Thank you very much. And went on her way. She continued to work. It was ramping up. It was the holiday season. It was December in New York City and on Christmas Eve, she was told that she was going to be

laid off because the holiday rush was over and she wasn't going to have a job. So she was a little downtrodden. She thought she kind of made it and now she's jobless. She goes back to visit her family the day after Christmas in Brooklyn and is on that same subway home and sees this man again. She described him as the most handsome man she'd ever seen. She kind of thought he must be an actor. He was so handsome and dressed incredibly well.

And he says, again, want to get a drink. And for whatever reason, she says, sure. And they get off at Times Square and they go to a bar and she orders a whiskey and seven up a scotch and seven up. I think that's called a seven and seven and they're having a drink and he says his name is Alan LaRue and she's totally charmed by the way he looks. And he tells her that he's a private detective and she'd been really into Perry Mason and mysteries and detective stories and she's intrigued and they're talking and she says,

I've been laid off. And he says, well, would you be interested in a job? And she says, I guess so. And he said, okay, come and meet me tomorrow morning and I'll give you a job. So this 19-year-old girl, Pearl Usk, meets this man, Alan LaRue, the next day and he tells her some more about what he does. He is a private detective for an insurance company and the insurance company looks into insuring jewelry and then recovering stolen jewelry.

And Alan LaRue tells Pearl that the job will be to follow a woman who's working at a hat company and go to see this woman and see if she's stealing jewelry from one of their clients. He tells Pearl that he can't be the one to follow this woman and see if she's stolen the jewelry because she already knows his face and she'll catch on and just ditch the jewelry. So they need someone who this woman named Olga has never seen before. And he says, you've got to figure out what she looks like. So I want you to go to this office, to this Crodin Hat Company office where she's a secretary

and ask for a fake woman, Sheila, and they'll say, there's no Sheila here, but you'll be able to get a look at this woman, Olga, you'll know what she looks like. She's hiding the jewelry in her jacket and so you'll know what she looks like. And then what you're going to do is you're going to follow her. So Pearl says, okay, she goes to the Hat Company offices. She gets a good look at Olga. She meets Alan LaRue again and says, I know what she looks like. It's clear to me.

And he says, okay, here's what you're going to do. We need proof that she's stolen the jewelry. We can't get the cops involved until we know that she has the jewelry. So he says that he needs her to take a photograph of this woman, Olga's coat, where she's hiding the jewelry. And Pearl will do this because Alan is going to give her a disguised camera, an x-ray camera that will take a picture through her coat. And when it gets developed, they'll see that she's hiding the jewelry in the coat.

And so he hands Pearl this paper-colored shoebox covered in kind of brown, parcel paper. And on one end of it, there's a little hole where the camera is supposedly sticking out. And he tells Pearl where Olga gets on the train and he says, you're going to get on the train with Olga and you're going to follow her. And when she gets off the train, you're going to get as close as possible to her, two and a half to three feet. He was pretty specific. And you're going to take the picture.

And so Olga and Pearl are on the same train. Pearl follows her, gets off the train, is supposed to pull this wire under the parcel, this odd shoebox-shaped parcel, which apparently has an x-ray camera in it. And she does. And she takes a picture of this woman, Olga's back of her coat. And she goes and she delivers the camera with the supposed film in it to Alan the Rue. And he says, okay, let me try to develop it and I'll let you know what comes out if we got a good picture.

It's a little time pass. And Alan lets Pearl know that the picture didn't work. It didn't come out. And so he says, I'm going to get a new camera. And I'm going to call you in a few days and tell you when the camera's ready. Pearl says, okay. So a few days later, Alan calls, they meet again, and Alan delivers Pearl a new box. This time it's wrapped in Christmas Happy New Year paper.

And it still has this hole in one end of it in kind of where the camera lens might be. It's a lot heavier than the last box and it still has this wire underneath that Pearl is supposed to pull when she wants to take the camera shot. So again, Pearl gets on the train with Olga coming from Brooklyn into Manhattan, gets off at the station, stands right behind Olga, two and a half to three feet, gets ready to take the picture, pulls the wire on the bottom of this box, and a gunshot comes out of them. I was afraid you were going to say that. You knew.

And it's New Year's Eve and they're at the Times Square train station. She pulls the wire loop, a blast occurs, and this box, which actually is holding a sawed-off shotgun, shoots Olga's left leg nearly completely off. Pearl is so close to Olga because Alan LaRue has said, you have to get really close that Pearl is covered in Olga's blood. And when a guard, everyone, I mean, Pearl is shocked. She didn't know that this box had a gun in it. When the subway guard asks Pearl what happened, she says, I just took a woman's picture, but

somebody shot her. She didn't even know that she had been the one to shoot her because she had no idea. When they open the box up, they see that it's got a sawed-off shotgun in it. And Pearl is now standing over Olga, who's laying on the ground, almost bleeding to death. And Pearl is saying, I'm so sorry I shot you in a state of shock. She had no idea. She said, I thought I was taking your picture with an X-ray camera. And Olga, laying there on the ground, looks up, and there's people around, of course.

And according to these people, these witnesses, Olga says, well, he got me this time. Now he's crippled me so I can't get away. Ooh, I just, no joke, I just got chills. And she's taken to the hospital. Where her left leg is amputated inches above her knee because the damage was so great. So that's the story, is what the hell? I didn't know you could put an X-ray camera in a shoebox in 1946, or that they even had X-ray cameras in 1946.

I don't know, I mean, can you do that today? I don't even know if you can do that today. Yeah, it sounds fake. I mean, that sounds like the thing in the back of a Richie Rich comic where it's like, you know, X-ray camera, see through people's clothes, it's like, this is why you don't talk to people on the sofa. That's what you're going out of there. That's why this is the rule, just keep your head down, no chit chat, no matter how good

looking they are. Yeah. I just feel like, though, a 19-year-old who's, like, excited and into Perry Mason and detective stuff and there's this hot detective, nicely dressed, sends you on this cool mission. That sounds legit, there's details in it, you know? Also the first time, and then it just didn't work, it's such a devious, horrifying setup. It's all, I'm going along with this private detective and this is how stuff like this works and I'm just doing what he tells me and nothing happened the first time, why would

anything happen the second time? Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, the leap from X-ray camera to sort of shotgun, I mean, I wouldn't make that leap if I wrapped in Christmas Happy New Year paper, yeah. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year.

Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy Hello Fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes and amazing desserts. Karen, January is going to be my month for Hello Fresh. I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much, I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since early fall, so I can't

wait to get back in the kitchen and Hello Fresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. Also get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye.

Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season, three masked men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry. As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So when the police questioned Pearl, who really is this rather innocent 19 year old who just as I was approached by this man named Alan LaRue, that coupled with what Olga had said of, well, he's crippled me now, now he can get me, they start putting two and two together. Alan LaRue's real name was Alphonse Rocco. And he and Olga had been married in May of 1945. They had met in 1944 at a dance. She had been obviously charmed by him as well.

They'd gotten married in May of 1945. And the relationship quickly goes south. Alphonse Rocco had been a con man stealing cars, stealing money for years, had a police history and the marriage does not work. In 1946, Olga decides to leave Alphonse Rocco and go on her own way and she moves to Brooklyn and they separate. Quickly she realizes that Alphonse Rocco is not going to leave her alone, still whatever he is with her, obsessed with her, and he begins following her.

He starts to follow her on the subway to and from work. He offers to drive her. He sometimes will find her and then offer to drive her somewhere as she declines a lot of the time. But finally, one day for whatever reason, she's tired and she says, fine, I'll get in the car with you. And when she gets in the car, her ex-husband, Alphonse Rocco, puts a knife to her throat and says, don't move or I'll kill you.

And he drives her to Poughkeepsie to a cabin where he basically held her hostage for two days with this knife at her throat. They drive back to New York. He then buys a gun and starts threatening her with that, then he drives her back to Poughkeepsie to a different cabin where he holds her for five days. And they drive back to Brooklyn, finally he drops Olga off at her family's house and goes away. We don't really know why he just said five days is enough, go back home now.

But he's now been threatening her for weeks. On November 1st, just a few weeks before Alan LaRue, Alphonse Rocco, meets Pearl Lusk, Olga is standing in the kitchen or the dining room in her family's home near an open window. And she's shot through the thigh, a clean shot. She's just standing there and a bullet comes in the window and shoots her through the thigh. She spends 10 days in the hospital and she says at that point to assistant district attorney, to a detective with the NYPD, my ex-husband is trying to kill me. He's held me at gunpoint, he's held me at knife point, he's the one who shot me.

So she is telling anyone she can that this man is trying to get her. The police over the next couple of weeks take some action, they take a lot of statements, they say that they're going to send someone to watch her while she's walking to and from the subway station. Some detectives do show up at some point to offer her this service. But it doesn't work and throughout this whole time, Alphonse Rocco, Alan LaRue is trying to get Pearl Lusk to step in and as we find out, get close enough to actually shoot Olga and try to kill her.

I mean, it's so evil. It's like, it's so, the planning and the scheming to get this done is like, it's like KGB level. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's right. It is kind of like, it is kind of like KGB level and also just really horrible. I mean, it's like gone from just terrible violent abuse to roping in other people and trying to be creative in the way that you can be, you know, the ultimate abuse of killing her.

Yeah. Yeah. So Pearl, you know, is complicit in going along with this X-ray camera and Olga is actually terrified every time she leaves the house that she's going to see that she's going to get shot again or that she's going to see her ex-husband or that he's going to, you know, shoot her silently without seeing, I mean, he's done this before. He was able to do it and she's convinced that it was him. And finally, you know, as she says, he got me this time, I can't run away.

So after this happens, Alphonse Rocco knows that this is all going to come out and he steals a car and drives to the Catskills and, you know, basically a gunpoint threatens people to give them their house for the night and he's on the run. On January 5th or 6th, that's six days from the shooting, police find him in the Catskills. He's sleeping in a sleeping bag in ten inches of snow under a tree and the police fire a warning shot to get him to surrender. He fires back at them and the police return fire and kills him. And when they went up to the body, they find on him a picture of him and Olga in his pocket.

And that's the end of Alphonse Rocco. Pearl and Olga actually kind of became friends, even though I think Pearl's life ended up a little happier than Olga. Olga loses her leg. Her family basically bankrupts themselves, paying for her doctor's bills. She starts selling costume jewelry to make ends meet. She ends up trying to sue the city of New York for $200,000, claiming that the police were negligent because she had made so many, so many attempts to get them to pay attention

to this very dangerous, abusive man and they hadn't done it, they hadn't been successful. The argument on the other side is that the case is dismissed after five days because the judge says, well, while you might have a little bit of a valid point that we were supposed to protect you from this man, it wasn't this man who actually shot you. It was Pearl Lusk who shot you. And so we can't, we're not going to give you any money. It's kind of this legal detail that made them dismiss the case. And Pearl goes on to have a pretty happy life, she has a family, and I think Olga spends

the rest of her life really struggling. She was 28. Olga was 28 when this happened, when she was shot and her leg was taken by Pearl Lusk. I mean, that's such a hideous technicality because Pearl Lusk wouldn't have been doing any of it if it wasn't for the man who asked her to do it. It's almost illogical in that they're just getting her on this technicality of, well, we shouldn't have to pay for it. When Pearl was duped into this plan, she didn't think she was doing anything trying to do

harm. I mean, that's just horrifying. And also, why would he plan all of that to such insane detail and then there's no escape plan. And his plan is I just drive north and then sleep in the snow. He was clearly, it was just his obsession is what he was dedicated to. I've thought about this story over the years so much, such a strange, sad, sad story. And when the police interviewed Olga, she said that she had seen Pearl on the train

that morning because she had seen this young, pretty woman holding this big box that was wrapped in New Year's paper and had a hole in it. And so you can just imagine these two women riding into the city, looking at each other across the car, both knowing that there's something odd, you know, Olga saying, why is this woman carrying this big present with a hole in it and you know, Pearl saying, well, there she is, I'm just going to get my shot and then I'll be the next Perry Mason. So they spent time in that subway car together looking at each other. I just, I wonder what, what that was like if you could have just been a fly on the wall

in that, in that subway car watching Pearl holding that box, Pearl having no idea that what was inside was a sawed off shotgun. Yeah, and why would Olga, I mean, I think most people would, would see that hole and not think, especially back then, you know, have any idea of what it was or that it was, if they kind of were sketchy about it, that it was meant for them in any way, like. Well, but also because Pearl wouldn't have been giving anything away, she's innocent. So she's staring, she's probably staring around. There's no, she's not giving off weird vibes of, oh my God, I have to get the shotgun in

the rights. There's nothing like that. So she's not going to betray anything. It's, it, you know, sorry to give credit, but that it is kind of the perfect plan in how horrifyingly evil it is in that way. What a cover. Well, and that he was able to say to Pearl, you've got to get close because the cameras got to get a shot.

So you've really got to be within two feet or the camera won't pick up the jewelry, you know, knowing that you've got to be kind of close for the shotgun, the sawed off shotgun. And when there's a picture of the actual box Pearl was carrying and, you know, he's rigged up the shotgun with some twine on top of a kind of a plywood box with the shotgun just rigged up on top with twine and a wire around the trigger. And then around it, you see all of the wrapping paper, you know, it's, it's a, yeah, quite a sight. She could, she could have shot anybody on that subway accident.

I mean, anything could have happened. Yeah. Anything could have happened. And, you know, then would, if she had shot someone else would two and two have ever been put together of who this guy really was, you know, right? It's so sad to with Olga, you know, now we probably would know that she had PTSD after this experience of being stalked for, you know, who knows how long that lasted and, you know, and being targeted in such a horrible way.

Yeah. You know, imagine those, those weeks up, you know, November 1st, she shot. And then December 30th, the day before she shot again, she goes to police headquarters and basically begs for help. You know, she's, she says she's so afraid she doesn't know what to do. And the detective she speaks to is so concerned by the story that he calls another lieutenant and says, hey, you know, we're going to have a homicide on our hands if we don't do something. I mean, and this is just the day before.

But she knows she's got to get up the next morning and she knows she has to go to work and get on the subway or she's going to lose her job, you know, and what was, what's she going to do? Right. Wow. Yeah. We've never, we've never been able to find anyone to tell that story. But I, I, it's just the, it's one of the wildest stories I've ever heard and I, no one really

knows it. Totally. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. It's crazy. That's, that's insane. And it would, like, if that was in a movie, you would be like, oh, this is this little corny.

I wouldn't buy it. Yeah. Or it sounds like a Hitchcock movie. It's like, it's totally diabolical, you know, it's like amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Phoebe Judge, you've done it again. That's right.

Well, I, you know, I, I'm glad to bring some light to these two women and an X-ray camera in 1946. I mean, of all the things he could have said to come up with an X-ray camera because she's hiding the jewelry in her coat. Yeah. I mean, that right there is, that's a lot of thinking ahead. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And the night, you know, if he hadn't met the exact right woman for the job, you know, unfortunately, not that she had anything to do with it, but she, you know, she was naive and fell for it. And I think a lot of us would have, especially at 19, I mean, she's 19 and someone that's very like so good looking that they seem like a movie star where everything seems a little more believable and viable out of like a hot person's mouth. And exciting.

Yes. And, and, you know, she had, Pearl had arrived in New York and it was all working, you know, she had that Upper West Side Room in the New York article. They talk about how she is starting to change her hairdo that she had gotten rid of her bangs. And so she was, you know, having a lot of friends and she was out on the town and she was having a great time. This is life.

Finally, I got out of high school, I'm living life and then you're, you're fired. And so this reality has just been ripped away from you. And so sure, this handsome guy says, I want to buy you a drink and you say, what have I got to lose, you know, um, yeah, yeah, that's kind of part of the dream, like, isn't that a little bit the next step when you're like, I'm going to move into the big city. And that's where people look like movie stars usually live and I'm going to be in the mix and I'm going to be metropolitan and exciting things are going to happen. And instead it's a nightmare.

I mean, amazing. Anytime you have these, these stories that you can't, uh-huh. Every, every one, please come back anytime it's like, anytime. We have a lot of them and I would love to because it's, this is fun to be able to just, to be able to tell it and you know, there's so many, there's so many odd things out there. It surprises me every day, the stuff that, that we all find and just look at each other and say, could that actually have happened? You know, this isn't, real life is better than what they write in the movies.

I mean, that is just true. Then the stuff you find in this world, in this crime world, I mean, you can't, you can't write it. Right. You, you couldn't write this, as you say, this Pearl and August or you could, you would, it's too much. It's almost, it's too over the top. Yeah.

It has to be real because it's too wild to not be real. Totally. Yeah. When you do these stories, is it, do the people reach out to you with their stories or is it mostly you guys tracking people down or how hard is it when you need to track them down? Well, we, people do write in with their stories and we love when people write in, but a lot of the time it's just us looking, constantly searching for interesting stories and stories

that feel like it, they would be good on, on criminal, on, on this, this show, you know, not every story works for us, but I think we've been doing it now for seven years and so we kind of, when we, when we see it, we kind of know. We don't even have to say much, someone will send a link or, you know, I'll look at Lauren Spore, you know, co-creator of the show and, and it's like, oh, perfect, you know, perfect in the sense of this. We have to follow up on this, but, you know, some of my favorite stories people have written in about.

So it's this odd mix of, you know, and, and because those little odd, strange stories oftentimes don't get written about or there's no article to find, you have to rely on someone saying, hey, I heard about this odd thing, I thought you, you might be interested. Or like the episode you guys had recently, when you talked to the man who I believe is almost a hundred or really close and he was the lawyer at the Nuremberg trial, that it is the most unbelievable, but then his audio and you interviewing him where we would get on the phone with him. He'd be like, all right, let's move this along.

It's the kind of thing that if it were an article or a magazine, in a magazine or something, you wouldn't get the real sense because his accomplishments and who he was in this incredibly historically unbelievable time, you wouldn't ever think that's what he's like. I mean, you know, the way that whole episode rolled out where you, it's like you knew him by the end of that episode. You knew that man and what he had accomplished and it wasn't, you know, he wasn't self serious and he wasn't self congratulatory and he wasn't there to teach every, it was like he was telling you his morning exercise routine.

And then at the end he was like, all right, I don't have time to keep on talking. I have other stuff to do. It was the funniest, most beautiful kind of profile that like the audio is everything for that, a story like that. Yeah. And that he had no time for me. And I knew that. I loved it.

It was so funny. Yeah. The minute I walked into his house, I thought, well, this man is seven times as busy as I am on my, what I think, busiest day and Phoebe, just be ready when he kicks you out of here. And the thing about there's a, there's a moment in that interview, it's why I, I like this, I like sound so much and he's talking about an absolutely horrendous scene that happened in a concentration camp that he saw. And you can tell it's painful for him to be telling me, I mean, horrible, horrible stuff.

And he tells me. And then very seriously, he says, next question. Yep. He's done. Yep. Move on. And, and that hearing him say that, like that to me was all seven paragraphs of writing about how he felt about what he saw or, you know, what it took to get over that wouldn't

have done what he did by telling me next question. And I, and I think that can be so powerful in this all and, and it feels really lucky to get to talk to people and hear their stories and what we always say on this show is the best episodes of criminal are the ones where you hear me the least because the person's story is just so compelling that you don't, you don't need me summing it up because they're doing it. They're doing it with their voice and the words they choose and what they're putting in and what they're leaving out, but not leaving out because they're trying to omit something,

but just because it's, you can tell what they're saying or not saying it's, it makes doing this for as long as we've been doing it just still, still fun and feel important some days. Yeah, it is. It's beautiful. Definitely. Definitely. And you are, you are so skilled. You have that, that, that little, you know, knowing when and what to ask.

And so when you're listening, you're like, wait, what was that? I want to know more. And then immediately you have, you come out and say that you have this sixth sense when you're interviewing someone about an important, and these are such delicate topics, obviously, that you talk to people about and they open up to you in a way that I feel like it's because you have this, you know, energy and skill. It's amazing to watch. Well, I, I think you both have a lot more fun.

You're going to be a little bit, a little bit. I kind of, I'm jealous, I'm jealous of, of, of what you get to do and, and these fans of yours who are so wildly devoted to you and, and, and love to hear you and love to hear what you have to say and the way that you tell stories and such, you know, that's, that's an accomplishment to create a tribe of, of people who, you know, that feels like a real thing to have done. Thank you. Yeah.

Thank you. We're, it's, we, we have to be genuine. Yeah. But you know, you can't, that doesn't just, you don't pay for that. You know, you don't pay for people's allegiance and their loyalty. Yeah. People can sniff stuff out quick, especially in audio. It's like, that's what it is.

It's that authenticity in interviews or when people are, you know, speaking about themselves for themselves, you know, when someone's just giving you like the party line. The other thing that I really love is that, you know, I, I came up doing stand up comedy of just one of the most competitive things you could do with your time. The idea that podcasting, because people can listen to 29 podcasts a day, it's, we're not competing with each other. It's the content like needs to keep on coming. It's so in, it's the opposite of that it's, we all get to be supporting each other and

pointing to each other and going, you have to listen to this and you have to listen to that. To me, that's one of the most satisfying parts of this, where we all, we all are fans of this, you know, specific kind of media. And then we get to be like, if you like this, you'll love this or, you know, I mean, like to me, that's the, that's the best part. And the idea that we get to sit here and talk to you when we're such fans of what you do is just a dream.

It really is. Well, that's, you're, you've been, both have been so nice to, to us and our little show. And, you know, anytime, sometimes people say, well, they did your voice Phoebe and so, and, and I hear about it. And I'm so happy. I said, well, isn't that nice? It's all in reverence. Full respect.

Yes. Full respect. No, no, no. I mean, that's the nicest thing to have you talk about the show and, and, and be Phoebe for a minute. You know, most people, no, I mean, most people are waiting for me to, for it to, my voice to, you know, they kind of meet me sometimes and they'll say, oh, it's your real voice. It's not an act.

It's not. It's actually really talks. Well, thank you so much. This was awesome. Can we, can we please do it again? It would be so cool. Anytime I would be, we will, we will start our, getting our list ready of, of stories that I can tell you about because I think that would be the best thing.

Yes. Amazing. We're honored. We are huge fans and we appreciate so much you coming on and sharing that incredible story with us. Yeah. That was so great. Thank you for X-ray cameras.

Absolutely. That's our new, um, that's our new tagline for this, for this crossover. Let's get a t-shirt made. No matter what episode, watch out for X-ray cameras. Yeah. Thank you both very much. Thank you. Thank you.

I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal. Motherfucker. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Elvis, do you want a cookie? Elvis, do you want a cookie? Elvis, do you want a cookie? Elvis, do you want a cookie?

Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton. Our associate producer is Alejandra Keck. Engineered and nixed by Andrew Epen. Send us your hometowns at myfavoritmurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at myfavoritmurder and Twitter at myfavemurder. For more information about the podcast, live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult, go to

myfavoritmurder.com. And please rate, review, and subscribe. Goodbye. Bye-bye.