My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 315 - Here Be Monsters!

Episode Date: February 24, 2022

This week, Georgia and Karen cover the Gypsy Hill killings and the cruise ship survival story of Moss and Tracy Hills. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia. Thanks. That's Karen. Thanks. That's what we go by now. We don't have last names anymore. What'd you just do? Well, because I was looking at my hand. Oh yeah. Yeah, I just looked down and there's like, there's some just some stuff on my hand. Kind of gray. It's not like it looks permanent. Is it goo? Or are you on hallucinogenics? It's, I can see through my hand and I can see the universe in my hand. I don't

know. What is that? Is that where it's been this whole fucking time? Geez. And it's all, it's all goo. Here's the good news. It's all goo. Here's the bad news. It's all goo. I don't know what this is. It looks like, I think I was holding a pencil. I've, as a writer, I tend to not be able to handle the actual writing instruments that I use a lot of the time. So like, yeah, I'm always the person with a little bit of pen on my cheek. That's cool. That makes you look smart. You know, like between that and glasses, you're just like, what's up? I'm smart. Leave me alone. This thing I'm doing now where I'm basically wearing glasses as a headband. I love it. It's, it's like a theater professor affectation that all I need is a cigarette and I will complete,

have completed my, I'm actually a drama teacher, life simulation. But you got it. You figured it out. Listen, this is what, this is my costume. This is your cross to bear. This is my cross, Jesus. Get off of it. We're not sharing. Doubles. What'd you say? I said doubles. Doubles. Get over here, you crazy. So I was going to say survivor. I don't think that happened. I don't think that's the Bible. Well, actually, on our part of the Bible, he, he rises again. What's up? I'm back. Yes. Listen, I got a season two. I'm, I'm on, I've come back. It's because of your sins. Way to go, loser. That's my Bible. That's, that's perfect because I have a segue off of that kind of into Game of Thrones where I have something to yell loudly.

But it's a big spoiler. So if you haven't watched it yet, do a quick 30 second forward. But if you have Karen, I just want to yell, they killed John Snow. No. Yeah, they did. What the fuck? I thought he would be there till the end. I mean, the thing that I have to say to you every time is like, just keep going. Don't. Okay. Does he come back as a white walker? That'd be fun. Wouldn't it be interesting? Does he? Well, you don't want me to tell you. I don't. All right. And I'm not telling you. Just so you know, this is not, I'm not misleading you or leading you. Okay. I'm neither here nor there. You're just holding me in your gray hands. I'm holding this space for you while you wonder.

There's some great things coming up though. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. But I couldn't remember how that I, I, it's so funny to talk about the show with you and I can't remember here and there. But did you finally see that battle scene I was talking about when he has to walk into battle? Probably. Basically by himself. I'm telling you, I mute and look away during every, like, I don't care about battles so much that I'm like, tell me who wins. Obviously going to be this guy. I'm happy Baratheon's dead because that guy was a fucking dick. Oh, that guy. What a great day on that show when, when Joffrey Baratheon was murdered. No, no, no, no. The, the, the brother of the king. Stannis. Stannis. Who kills? Stannis Baratheon was, wait, which one is he? He killed

his sweet little daughter and he was boning the red, the redheaded witch. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yes. That's right. I was so glad he died. He was really, it was a great character for that kind of like when people get pulled, you've seen this in your own life when people who were normal and regular suddenly have some new person in their life and they're pulled into a dark side where you're like, why can't, why aren't you looking directly into my eyes? What's happening? Right. They're like, so and so read my moon sign and it turns out that I'm actually supposed to be king of the fucking whatever. And like, you're like, well, maybe you should calm down about it because you keep killing your daughter and like people. Yeah. Maybe you should get back to basics. Right. Stannis

Baratheon. I thought you were talking about King Joffrey. Oh, no, no, he died a lot. No, no, no, no. Okay. He's way dead. He's like super dead. And this is an irresponsible discussion of Game of Thrones. It's out of, it's out of, no, I'm just saying it's like, I'm confused. I'm referring to people. I don't even know if that's actually who we're talking about. Like I'm watching it six years later. So this is now that I know this at least this timeline, you have a you have a battle scene coming up in the next season that you cannot, you cannot look away from. Is that the one you keep mentioning? Yes. Okay. But you have a season to go. So I'll try to remind you it's season, it's season six episode nine. Okay. Wait, I'm in season six now. But yeah, yeah. Okay. You're in season

six. Well, because it ended with Jon Snow dying. I'm joking. Like you, like you got a part in the show. I have to walk through the streets naked. Oh, that scene. I ring that bell. I throw shit on her. That scene. So intense. Disgusting. Mm hmm. I mean, like craft services that day. I don't know. Anyway, what you got, girl? Hey, girlfriend, what have you got? Hey, did you start watching the Tinder Swindler? Not yet. Not yet. Is it great? I just started it today. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I would say 30 minutes into it. Okay. And I will just say this. Yeah, I think let's talk about it next episode. Okay. Okay, I'll watch it. Because I realized I was sitting there and it was like three o'clock. Yeah. As I was watching it. And I was like, something's wrong. Am I hungry? Am I

about to get sick? And I realized this idea of these women who look, who are talking and telling their story to camera and are completely normal, calm, incredibly, like gorgeous women who could probably get any one they want on Twitter. Yeah. And they're about Twitter story. I'm sorry. I bet that both. I bet you anything. I bet even on parlor. I'm fucking Wardle. They're like, what's up, everyone? Hey, did you see my word? But I realized it makes me like physically ill. Yeah. This idea of, it's just the dirtiest thing you can do. So that's how it to love someone. It's catfishing, essentially. It is. But in this way that like, once again, you just kind of never seen it to this degree. Well, I watched Sweep, I watched, I listened to Sweep Abbey, like you

mentioned. Yeah. And I had a really, the first three episodes are what happened. And I had the hardest time going through it because it is just this like, the whole like, emotionally, mentally abusive partner who love bombs, who does all these things. And I've seen friends go through that. And I was just so, I think I was like, I hate this show. But then I was like, no, no, no, what I hate is this concept. Yes. And that someone could go, we put through that for so long. And it's just, it was so rough. Yeah. Did you finish it? Yeah. Oh, I finished it quick. Yes. Right. You have to binge it because you're like, please tell me what in the hell is going on. Yeah. I was like, I hate this. I don't want to listen to this anymore. And then I, and then I

couldn't stop listening to it. I mean, it's good. It's not like I hated it, but it was just like so hard to get through because it's like being made, it's like someone going, hey, go walk over there and talk to that person where you're like, ew, what do you know what I'm talking about? Like that's, it's that feeling of like, I don't want to be here. I shouldn't be listening to this. This is not my business. And yet, of course, I'm going to listen to it because it's being presented by the person. Right. So it happened to, so she has agency in telling the story. Yeah. So you kind of have to trust her. Right. In that way. I mean, she's so great to tell her story because she's going to help so many people be aware of what's going on. But it does also like,

just like, yeah, I like, I lost a friend to a person who in real life, it wasn't a, it wasn't catfishing, but was that love bombing get you away from your friends, make you feel like you're crazy. And I just was every little bit that sweet Bobby was doing to her was familiar. And I just got so just like creeped out by it. It sucks. It sucks. Right. Because it's the kind of thing where when someone is going through what they believe is like, oh, I found something. Yeah. And so I'm having this great relationship in this great time. I think it gets people at this vulnerable place, which is kind of what we're talking about, like why it's so difficult. And so you see, like, you become that person. So you're like, okay, you're, I see how you're making this wrong decision.

Right. You're basing, you're giving too much importance to stuff that actually doesn't matter. Right. And you're not paying attention to the stuff that does or you're kind of ignoring it. Right. Which is what we all do. Because you're being mentally manipulated by using the basic need and life, which is love and companionship that, you know, it doesn't have to be a relationship, but we all need somehow. And it's just heartbreaking. Well, it's dirty. It's dirty business. It's like, yeah, because to then manipulate a thing like that, which is it's just the grossest thing that you can do insincerely. Yeah. Just to get your way to get money to get power. Well, this one's so weird. To have control over someone. Because there isn't gain. There isn't monetary

gain, which I think everyone else would understand, you know, like, or her friends would have been like, stop doing this, you're giving too much money. Like, but it wasn't that, that wasn't involved in it. It was just purely emotional manipulation for someone else's power trip. Yeah. It's definitely goes into the area of either sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies of like, why else would you hurt a person for 10 years? Yeah. Hey, I have something positive. If you need, if you need a palette cleanser, everyone after. There's a new HGTV, HG television show, HGTV show called Ugliest House in America, hosted by Retta from Parks and Recreation. And she's, she's a comedian. She's so freaking hilarious. And she basically just goes around

the country look and people submit their house as the ugliest house in America. So we've got the what we've talked about for carte blu, shag carpet in the bathroom and like mirrors on the ceiling, like the ugliest fucked up houses you've seen and they're all competing for one of them to get a renovation. So everyone else is just showing off their house, their ugly house house. It's, and Retta is so fucking funny in it. Like she's just, it's just, and she looks, she looks incredible. She's like, her clothes are insane and awesome. And like, it's just really fun to watch. Wait, so sorry, people like are basically giving Retta a tour of their house being like, look how gross this is. Yeah. Give me a renovation. And they're like, there's like,

they do all over the country. And then they're like, one of you will get it. So everyone else is fucked. Like an ugly house house. But it's so enjoyable. Like Vincent and I watching are just like, what the fuck? Like, look at that. Like just shit. It's everywhere. No, sorry to ask, but is are the people did, are they responsible for some of the decoration? Did they buy a house that's just old and they can't afford to? Yes. None of them have done our guilty. It's not their fault. None of them are guilty. They got in the house for a bargain or they liked it at the time and then it's not functional. But yeah, it's, it's really like really entertaining. Ugliest house in America is what it's called. That sounds good. Yeah.

So it's a good palette cleanser. I have a good recommendation. Okay. And this is one of those ones, you know, when you're kind of like, I love, here's why I love podcasting, one of the many reasons, because there's literally a billion podcasts. So good luck finding like, you know, there's lists, there's networks, there's people giving you recommendations. But it's also like, I consume podcasts very quickly. So I'm always searching for one that's going to like really hook me in and be like, Oh, I want to go back to that. Yeah. And I did this one, I found this one randomly, because I think I just put in true crime and just saw what came up. Oh, I swear to God. So this is a C13 original, our friends over at cadence 13. They know how

to make a limited series podcast. It's called Gone South. It's hosted by a guy named Jed Lipinski. And it is the story, it's from the 80s. And it's about a female lawyer in this very small, like gated community outside of New Orleans. And this woman, her name was Margaret Kuhn, very successful lawyer, and she was murdered one night. And it's the story of basically them, it was an unsolved murder for a long time, and them basically getting back into it and going into it and trying to figure out who was responsible. And it's really well done. The interviews are mind boggling, you know, that like a legit New Orleans accent is kind of amazing to listen to. It's like the South with a twist of lemon. It was such a delightful listen.

There are only, it's short, I think it was only six or seven episodes. Oh, I'm sorry, there's eight episodes. But I'm gonna give it five stars right now, now that I'm on here. It was, it's just so good. It's just like it, you breeze through it. And it's just like the 80s weren't that long ago to me, but the 80s were 800 years ago, in a lot of ways. Yeah, I've been seeing it on the charts. I'll watch it gone south. Let's do it. Gone south. Really great. Really great. Okay. Just a good binger as I do my morning dishes or whatever. Yeah, your morning dishes. Do you have morning, afternoon, and night dishes? It's a lot of cooking. Yeah, because oh, I'm over here just

with all my Julie Child recipes. No, I think it's just I like to do, I like to pretend I'm a big soaker of dishes. Oh, I'm just gonna let them soak. You're like, I would do them. I'm not lazy. I just, they're soaking right now. They have to soak. We have to get that layer of nothing off of them. So I like to let them sit for a while, but then in the, I don't like a dirty house in the morning, it bums me. Yeah. So I have to do a morning clean through. Vincent and I both have our things that we like to do and clean and stuff. And unfortunately, neither of us is dishes. One of us needs to be like, no, but I love doing dishes, but it's neither of us. Throw on your AirPods, turn on Gone South, and see if those dishes

don't bug you a little bit less this time because it goes fast. I think that's all my recommendations that I can think of offhand. I got nothing else. Do you want to do some exactly right network highlights? We might as well. We're here. We might as well. This week is the season four finale of Tenfold More Wicked because Kate Winkler Dawson won't stop, can't stop, won't stop. Season five, which is called Blood Feud, is going to drop Monday, March 7th. So if you're wrapping up season four of Tenfold More Wicked, don't worry because season five is right around the corner. That's right. And we have a new episode of Nick Terry's incredible MFM animated videos. It's out now. It's the episode. The episode is called Hair Tie. It's on the Exactly

Right Media YouTube channel, so please subscribe to that. It's the one where Karen uses a fucking pad. It's a spoiler. All right. Just go check that out at Exactly Right Media's YouTube channel, please. Imagine what would be something I would wrap my hair in to tie my hair back to wash my face. That would get the biggest to elicit the biggest response out of a room full of people. That's right. Discover that now. You could have actually said it. I don't know why I'm trying to pretend that this is any more exciting than it is. You've heard us talk about it, so it's not like it's new. But the animation that Nick Terry fucking achieves when he does these MFM animated videos is just like high art. He's just incredible. He's really good. Oh, that's in the middle,

but now we're going back to the network shows. I saw what you did is now closing out their Black History Month programming. They've got a double feature of horror films by Black filmmakers. They're going to be doing Us and Tales from the Hood. Epic. A nice side-by-side analysis of two horror movies by Black filmmakers. And then also, we have the fuck you and Mary Joggers back in stock for anyone who needs them at myfavoritmurder.com. Am I first? I think you are. All right, well, fine. Then I'll go first. Do it then. I'm gonna. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping, and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can

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20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season, three masked men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry. As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles,

a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Okay, Karen, this is a story that seems like it should have been huge, but I hadn't heard about till I saw it on Reddit late one night. But you've probably heard of it because it's from your area of birth, your hometown. This is the Gypsy Hill killings. I don't know if I've heard of it. Oh, okay. It's also known as the San Mateo slayer. Oh, okay. And this terrified the San Francisco peninsula area when in less than four months, five women were killed back in the 70s. Mm. So the sources I use today are four San Mateo timed articles, one written by Janet Parker,

Rick Sullivan, and two by the staff, a Pacific Attribune staff article, a KTVU staff article, two Buzzfeed articles by Stephanie Bayer and Stephanie McNeil, Associated Press staff article, a CBS 13 Sacramento staff article, the National Registry of Exonerations, and a San Mateo daily journal article written by Anna Schusler. All right. Nice. KTVU is our home local station. Okay. There's only one, two. I fucking love that show. That's where the great Dennis Richmond was the news anchor for all of my life. Legendary. I've talked about him on the show many times. But please don't forget the great Dave Macklehatton, who actually, now that I think about it, may have been on KPI Pick, KPIX channel five. But anyway, KTVU, literally you said that and like

the weirdest thing of like my heart goes like, oh, that's my station. That's my home. Yeah. But do you have that? Do you have that for Orange County? I prefer LA because we just got LA's stations. Oh, right. Right. So Dallas Reigns are fucking incredible weather guy. Legend. I've been with, that's not it. He's been part of my life since I was a child. It was like you fucked Dallas Reigns. Oh, I've been with Dallas Reigns. He was my first husband. You didn't know that? We've all been with Dallas Reigns in many ways. I think I used to do a bit about him because watching him, it really seemed like he stoned when he talks about, and then I, it was like, cause I used to only watch local, I used to only be able to get

local TV in my studio apartment in Hollywood. So I watched a lot of like local news and every once in a while Dallas Reigns would come on and it was the most entertaining thing. I guess maybe he always looked like someone I wanted to be my stepdad. Like I always was like, mom, marry a Dallas Reigns please. I will be Georgia Reigns. No, I wouldn't. Dad, Marty, I would never change my last name. However, she, you know. Yeah. Like a tan guy that clearly drives a convertible and has for 40 years. Yeah. I'm like, treat Janet right. You know. Yeah. Be kind of chill and, you know, just go to brunch and enjoy yourselves. It'd be fun to let like the kids right in the front seat of the convertible. I'm sure you had one of those giant fucking car

phones back then. You know, all that, all that local news money. Yeah. He had, but he immediately had a car phone with a ring cord. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Where the fuck were we? Now let's get into the shit. Okay. January 7th, it's 1976. Around 6pm, Veronica Casillo, who went by Ronnie, is waiting for a bus in Pacifica, California. As you know, Karen, it's a quiet beach city about 12 miles outside of San Francisco. And Veronica's headed to a friend's birthday party. But the 18 year old high school student never makes it to the party. And the next day, her nude body is found by a 16 year old boy. Oh, I know. Awful. She's in a creek that runs through the grounds of a golf course near, it's near the bus stop where she was last seen. So

she hadn't gone, gotten far. She'd been sexually assaulted and stabbed more than 30 times in the neck, chest and abdomen. I don't think I've ever heard this. That's near you, right? Like, yeah. Yeah. Pacifica's right south. It's my cousin lives there and it's very foggy. It's like softened fog like crazy. Can't see in front of you. But it's a little south for me growing up and maybe a tiny bit early for when I first, Trailside Killer was when I really started becoming aware that serial killers were a thing and maybe this was just a little bit early. Yeah, maybe your parents were like, go in the, you can have hot chocolate if you get out of the news, the living room and don't watch this horrible news. Just a month later on February 4th, 17 year

old Paula Louise Baxter, she goes to her high school in the evening for, to rehearse for a place she's in at her Millbray California High School in the same area. And that is where all my cousins, like all the rest of my cousins grew up in Millbray. So I actually, I didn't realize San Mateo is the county, I think. Yeah. And maybe one of the bigger cities, but this is, I know exactly what this area is. Okay. But it's all like the foggy on the coast, San Francisco area. Yep. So she leaves rehearsal at around 8pm and never makes it home. And hours later, her car is found parked on a residential street, just three blocks from the school. And the wheels, the undercarriage and the driver's side floor are all muddy. And the keys are still

in the ignition, but there's no blood found inside the car. And then two days later on February 16th, a group of students gather together to do a search team, which is like, oh, you guys. And they search behind a church in Millbray where they find Paula's nude body in a grove of eucalyptus trees. There are tire tracks leading away from her body and she had also been sexually assaulted and stabbed four times in, again, the neck, chest, and abdomen. San Mateo residents think that what's being called the San Mateo slasher has moved on when there isn't a body found the following month, like they think that's the pattern. But those hopes are destroyed when another murder victim is found the following month. During the evening hours of April 1st, 19-year-old

Denise Lynn Lamp and a friend have a shopping date at the Saramonte Shopping Center in Daly City, which is right next to where I lived in San Francisco in the Sunset District. Yep. So Daly City is a totally sleepy town right outside of San Francisco. The song Little Boxes is based on Daly City. It's like a total suburb. And Denise actually works as a cosmetic sales person at one of the department stores in the shopping center. So she knows the area well. And so when Denise and her friend are done shopping, the two women split up and they head to their cars with plans to meet at Denise's house. And the friend heads over to Denise's, waits for a long time. And when Denise never shows up, the friend goes back to the mall because she knows

something isn't right. She locates Denise's car along with the security guard. And when they look inside, they find Denise's bloody, the body quote, crumpled in the front seat. And she'd been stabbed 20 times in the chest and arms. Of course, the friend is absolutely shocked and confused as she had just seen Denise alive 30 minutes prior. I can't imagine what happened in that short time. Oh my God. And also to be that person, like that, that is such a tectonic shift in your reality. That's horrifying. Yeah. Yeah. Investigators, of course, noticed that Denise's murder is similar to the murders of Veronica and Paula. And like the previous victims, Denise was young. And they all had long brown hair parted down the middle. They do all look strikingly similar, but that was also

the look at the time. So, you know, who knows, but they do look very similar. Yeah. And they had all been stabbed multiple times. But investigators also noticed a couple of major differences. Denise had been attacked in a public place. And she wasn't stabbed in the neck, which I don't think is, you know, that doesn't have to be an M.O. And she wasn't sexually assaulted, although investigators can explain the first and second differences. But they have a theory for the third, which is that the killer did plan to sexually assault Denise, but she fought back so aggressively that he abandoned the sexual assault and murdered her. So it also could have been that because she was attacked in a public place. This is what I think that maybe he did that and then took them to another

location in their car, it seems like. And he wasn't able to because she fought back. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. So the following month in May, a fourth victim is found dead. This time in South San Francisco, 26 year old Carol Lee Booth, known as Beatty, to her friends, had been reported missing by her husband, Michael, months earlier in March. The last time anyone saw her, she was leaving a bus stop walking toward her house. And she just finished her first day as a secretary, had a secretarial job, but she had never made it home. So she had gone missing in March. In May, Carol's body is discovered in a heavily wooded area near Colma Creek. And her shallow grave is just off a dirt path used as a shortcut, mostly by high school students. But Carol was known to use the

shortcut. And she had been sexually assaulted and stabbed to death. Investigators were fairly certain that Carol's murder was also related to the previous three. Carol was older than the other victims, but apparently she looked much younger and she was taking a path that high school students took so she could have been confused for a high school student. In mid May, multiple law enforcement agencies meet to discuss the four murders, seemingly related murders. All four are thought to be connected, but only the murders of Veronica and Paula have been officially linked via hair and semen and results show the suspect as being a white male with brown hair. And this is sorry, 1976. So there's almost no testing that like... Right. Yeah, that's... It's just so mind blowing

to think back then that they had to solve murders. And with all that, you know, it was like this saliva test or whatever. Yeah. So it was such old, inaccurate. Yeah. It seemed like back then it was like they could tell the blood type of the person and that was about it, right? Yeah, they were a secretor or not. Right. Yeah. But then it's like, yeah. Yeah. It's... Yeah, that's crazy. We're so lucky these days. Yeah. In June, the fifth and final victim is found, again in Pacifica, 14-year-old Tatiana Blackwell known as Tanya had been reported missing by her mom on January 24th. She had left the house to run an errand but never returned. Almost six months later on June 6th, and just a mile from her home, Tanya's body is discovered in a grove of trees

located off an access road in the Gypsy Hill area, which is how the killer got his new moniker, the Gypsy Hill Killer. And because, unfortunately, Tanya's body is decomposed over the last several months, the medical examiners unable to tell if she'd been sexually assaulted. But however, her body was found fully clothed. And just like Veronica, Paula, Denise, and Carol, Tanya had been stabbed multiple times. Law enforcement agencies continue to work together to solve these five murders in the San Mateo County area. But with the lack of DNA technology and eyewitnesses, they come up empty. And the cases go cold for decades. Then in March of 2014, so fucking long time, the Gypsy Hill Killings cases are reopened after the FBI forms a task force

with multiple local law enforcement agencies. I fucking did not hear about this, like I didn't know about this at all. It's same. They have the DNA available from two of the murders tested. And by July, they have a hit on those two cases finally. The name is Rodney Halbauer, a 65 year old man who's been in prison or on the lam since the 1960s. In 1964, he spent a short amount of time behind bars after he stole a car in Michigan, he where he grew up and lived at the time. Basically, he's in prison for the next decade on stuff like breaking and entering robbery. He occasionally escapes from prison, blah, blah, blah, he sucks. And he's released in 1975, right, when the murders start happening, and it moves out west to Nevada. So in December of 1975,

he's arrested for raping a blackjack dealer in Reno, and released on bail in May of 76. He sentenced to life in prison for the rape. But in the next year, he escapes prison, goes back to Michigan, kidnaps his daughter, gets caught, and authorities agree to drop the kidnapping charges if he agreed to go back to Nevada to finish out the sentence. He stays in prison until December of 1986, when he escapes again. And he's arrested within days in Oregon, after he raped and attempted to murder a woman. Hal Bauer was convicted and sentenced to 15 years, but was sent back to Nevada to finish up that term. 2013 is granted parole in Nevada, and was immediately sent to Oregon to serve the 15 year term he'd received back way back when. And thankfully, finally,

when he gets to the new prison, a sample of his DNA was taken and entered into the national database. And that's how the Gypsy Hill Killing Task Force got a match for the murders of Pulla and Veronica. Wow. It just seems like just a coincidence that within a year, they were able to catch him. Yeah. Okay. Then in what was seemingly an unrelated case at this point, authorities in Reno, Nevada, also received a notification that Hal Bauer's DNA matches one of their cases. That's the 1976 murder of a 19 year old, Michelle Mitchell. So on February 24th, 1976, in Reno, 19 year old nursing student, Michelle Mitchell calls her mom for a ride after her car breaks down across the street from the University of Nevada, Reno. And within 10 minutes, her mom

shows up and Michelle's already gone. A few hours later, Michelle's body is found in a garage across from the University. Her hands had been tied behind her back. Her throat had been slashed. She had not been sexually assaulted, but her keys are missing and there's a cigarette, but real close to her body. But here's the thing, someone had been in prison for decades already for Michelle's murder. In 1979, authorities in Shreveport, Louisiana called the Reno police to let them know that a woman named Kathy Woods, who was a patient at a mental hospital there, had told a staff member she had killed a girl named Michelle in Reno. Despite her obvious and well documented mental health history, including a schizophrenia diagnosis, Reno police go and

meet with her. And despite her confession, only including information that had been reported in the media, as well as other red flags, Kathy is charged with Michelle's murder. And in 1980, she's convicted based almost solely on her false confession. In 2013, so back to when we're fucking figuring out what's going on, in 2013, Kathy reaches out to the Innocence Project. They'll agree to help her. And in the fall of that year, DNA on that cigarette butt that was found near Michelle's body is tested. And as expected, it didn't match Kathy, but it did match an at the time unknown male. However, authorities kept Kathy in jail, suggesting that perhaps she was an accomplice. So bananas how little they paid attention to what was really going on. But

finally, when the DNA matches how our Michelle Mitchell's murder investigation is reopened, and Kathy is exonerated. Wow. Unfortunately, there isn't enough DNA evidence to test in Tanya and Carol's cases. However, according to Buzzfeed, authorities have quote, no reason to believe anyone else besides how Bauer was involved in their murders. Which would be great to believe, but like that there's only one murderer that year in San Mateo County. And I do think that he probably was responsible for them. But what's so sad that you and I know is that, or that we all know is that there's a lot of bad people out there. Well, and also in the 70s, there were those like, we've talked about a couple times where there's like, there was a bunch of crazy shit

happening in Santa Cruz. There was a lot of like drifter type drug people, drifters, you know, ragers, those people where just like suddenly they want to kill a college girl that's in college or whatever. Like there's that stories, we've done that one a bunch of times. You did the like the i5 killer and it turns out there were like three of them operating at one fucking time. Like we want to believe it's just this one monster, but really it's, it's so far reaching. Yes, but also we do have to remember that the i5 goes from like Mexico to the fucking coast of fucking Canada. Right. It's, you know, sometimes these names aren't great. Right. Totally. So then a blood stain on Denise's jacket is tested and they don't find Hal Bauer's DNA.

Instead, they find the DNA of a man named Leon Melvin Seymour, who's a 71 year old sexually violent predator and inmate slash patient at Coalinga State Hospital. So there were two predators at that time working in the same manner in the same area. Seymour's first conviction was in 1973 for assault with intent to rape in San Mateo County. And since then he'd been convicted of kidnapping and sexually assaulting six women in multiple California counties. So in November 2018, he's charged with torturing and murdering Denise. He pleads not guilty, goes to trial in March 2020, COVID happens, trials postponed. And as of right now Seymour's case hasn't gone back to trial. Meanwhile, the task force is still unable to

connect Hal Bauer to Carol and Tanya's murders, but they want to make sure Hal Bauer remains behind bars forever. So authorities move forward with charges for Paula and Veronica's murders, which does have the match DNA. He goes to trial in 2018, the jury convicts him on all counts, and he's currently facing charges for the murder of Michelle Mitchell in Nevada. So here's a weird little aside. It's like a twist that happened in the case. So back in 1989, a woman in California named Eileen Franklin Lipsker claimed that she had a recovered memory that had been repressed, that her father, George Thomas Franklin Sr. had raped and murdered her best friend, Susan Nason, when they were eight years old back in Northern California,

20 years before. So he gets charged with Susan's murder and based only on Eileen's testimony, his daughter's testimony, your face cringing face is correct. Yeah, that's shocking. He's charged with Susan's murder based only on Eileen's testimony, as well as that of her sister who claimed that their father was a pedophile who had molested and raped them when they were kids. And the case is super high profile and controversial, as it was the first in which a recovered memory was used in a criminal prosecution. And you remember this, started a trend of like these disturbing repressed childhood memories coming to light with people in therapy. And it was almost like similar around the time

of the satanic panic, right? Because there's oftentimes, well, I mean, this is very generalized, but just my memory of the different cases where there would be ritualistic child abuse involved in some of these recovered memories where it was absolutely parallel to satanic panic, where it was kind of almost like in the consciousness. So, you know, then you had the things like the McLaren, whatever the family was, where they were running the daycare. I covered that in our live show. Oh, you did. I mean, it's just like, yeah, it's intense. But yeah, it's horrible to think that these if these two girls lived through that, then they got into that position where they're the only two and that's the only evidence like why how

you have to build that case so that it's not all on their shoulders. Right. That's horrifying. It does seem in the end like, so let me tell you what happens. So I should keep talking about it when I have no idea what I'm talking about. Well, no, no, you make a good point. And so George Thomas Franklin Sr. is found guilty in sentence to life based on the testimony of his daughters. Then Eileen said she has more recovered memories this time that her dad had killed two of the Gypsy Hill murder victims, Veronica Casayo and Paula Baxter in Millbray. So she's like, she killed my he he killed my best friend. I witnessed it. And also he is the Gypsy Hill killers murderers. So in 1995,

though, his conviction for the murder of Nace on the little girl is overturned. Eileen and her sister have a falling out. And her sister confesses that Eileen's quote were repressed memory that she had just had randomly hadn't come out of the blue as she testified, but it actually come up when Eileen had been hypnotized, which seems like a lot of the way those old repressed memories at the time came up. And it turns out testimony based hypnosis induced memories are deemed unreliable by California Supreme Court, which means that Eileen had committed perjury. So she just kept that to herself. And it's like it came out of nowhere. I mean, she seems like she believed it. She just didn't want to admit that it came out of

hypnosis. It also feels like if this really happened to those girls, and they had to be quiet about it for so long, then they finally came forward and were like empowered to tell the truth about how horrible their childhoods were, then it would almost feel like, like, to me, the just the human part of that feels like it's like, I need to really prove this. I need to really drive this home. It wasn't just me. It was these other people. He's the worst person. He's a serial killer. He killed these other girls. Like, it's almost it feels like more of that kind of please be on my side like proof. Yeah. Well, I will say though, so, so DNA testing is done on the evidence. Obviously, he's not the Gypsy Hill murderer, et cetera, et cetera. So although he didn't do that,

Eileen maintains that their father who died in 2016 did sexually abuse her as a child and sexually abuse her and her sister, which, you know, seems possible. And in fact, Susan Nason's case is still unsolved. So it could still be possible that he is indeed the killer. Like there's just not enough evidence. But it's almost like I wish it was a time where she wouldn't understand that just that happening to her and her sister was plenty. Right. Like in no way accusing her of lying or doing anything at all, knowing nothing about it, but just knowing that feeling of like that, that's enough. Yeah, it's horrible. And then she might have believed it. That's the thing, like especially under hypnosis, and you start to believe this thing, you know, and I read,

I read this other totally different article about how memories are so fallible and people make up things in their head that they absolutely believe. It doesn't mean she was making it up or lying. It might have just been that her memory, you know, she's eight, her memory was, you know, her memory was trauma-based. Yeah, right. She went through horrible things that her friend died when she was eight. Like all these horrible things and her dad was a predator, allegedly, you know, it makes sense and it's really tragic. It's really tragic. Yeah. So as for Kathy Woods, she was the longest ever wrongfully imprisoned woman in US history who had confessed to the murder of Michelle. And in 2016, her lawyers filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against freaking everyone involved

and ended up receiving millions of dollars in compensation. She died on July 15, 2021. And finally, I looked up the hometowns related to this case, we got one sent in by someone who goes, who just signed at E, whose mother went to school with Paula Baxter, the girl who was murdered after leaving her high school theater rehearsal. And she says that there were rumors when E went to the same high school, you know, much later, that there was a ghost of a girl who haunted the school who had been murdered. That's all she knew. So she goes home and asks her mom about it, who was in high school along with Paula. And her E's mom told her the story. And then E goes on to say, quote, Ms. Baxter, Paula's mother was wonderful because she was my grandmother's friend and lived

in our neighborhood. My sister and I would go to her house every year and sell her Girl Scout cookies. And she would come visit my grandma. She made some fantastic shortbread. I hope that these women and their families were given some small bit of peace with Rodney's conviction. And I made sure to educate everyone at school on what happened whenever they talked about the ghost. It's important that people know their names, that they were real people with real dreams and people who miss them dearly. And that is the Gypsy Hill killings. God. So it really was that guy that they got, that they got the DNA for, but only for a couple of them. They got him definitively for three of the total murders. Yeah. One of them wasn't him. And then two others, it seems like

they're pretty certain it was him. God damn. It's also very interesting because I don't think you said it for all of them, but for a lot of them, them being found in groves of trees. Yeah. Yeah. Nate, they're like all kind of nature outdoors, and they all were kidnapped from the street, you know. Yeah. It's just really, really tragic. Yeah. Also, man, just like the mid 70s. Dude. I just feel like it's just like free reign for these predators. And then like, I mean, of course, also, they got such short prison sentences for such horrendous acts of violence against women. Yeah. And then we're able to fucking escape. You know, it's just also there's, you know, we've talked about this a little bit, but it was that thing of like the summer of love in 1969 had this influx of runaways

and, you know, college dropouts or high schoolers or whatever, just young people in San Francisco thinking like they were causing, you know, that it was the revolution and they were going to change. And it drew predators to that area because people were doing drugs freely. There was a lot of like trust and a lot of assumption that like people were going to naturally be good if they were like hippie types. Right. And so that just kind of struck me too, whereas like every area you just talked about and all those, it's just like basically goes right down, it drips out of San Francisco and right down into South City, Daily City, Colma, fucking Millbray, where just all of it along the coast, I feel like hitchhiking was how you got around back then.

Yeah. Right too. So like, you know, not to say that they were hitchhiking, I have no clue, but it was just more trusting time, right? And like we were more naive, unfortunately. Trusting and then so dangerous, like the unholy combination of those two. Yeah. Man. Great job. That was fascinating. All right. Well, we're going to change gears now. And I'm going to downshift you into a survival story. Please. Right? Yeah. This is the way we like to do the one-two punch of the show My Favorite Murder. I believe Hannah Crichton is the one who found this survival story. And the second she told me about it, I was like, oh my, oh my God. She's good. I cannot wait. She's good at suggesting

stories that like you're like, you know me so well. Yeah. Well, Hannah is a true crime fan herself. Yeah. And then she's listened to our show. And then she's a professional producer. So she's like, and then she's our producer. So it's kind of a dream come true. Yeah. Okay. So this is the survival story of cruise ship. Well, you know what? Let me just, let me just tell you actually. Okay. Okay. I like that little tidbit of start though. I just realized it's like, it's all, it reminds me of doing the minis where it's, it's just going to give it away. Yeah. Don't read that. Yeah. Do it. Okay. So we start on the morning of Saturday, August 3rd, 1991. Okay. And cruise ship musicians Moss and Tracy Hills. So his first name is Moss. Amazing. Right. And his

wife Tracy, they're aboard the Greek owned cruise liner, the MTS Oceanus. They're cruise ship musicians. So they're docked, they're gearing up to sail from East London, South Africa to Durban, South Africa. It's a little quick cruise little jaunt that they're about to go on. So the past two nights before that they had been working and there had been both a bachelor party on the ship and a wedding. So they have like gotten very little sleep. They're both really exhausted. They eat breakfast together that morning, but then Tracy goes back to bed to try to catch up on some sleep. Moss walks into the harbor town to shop a little bit and then to call his mom from a payphone. Okay. So as Moss is catching up with his mom, she expresses concern about the weather that

they're having down in this area. So the night before during the wedding that the couple had to perform at the ship sailed into a storm and it got very, very rocky. So they actually were forced to dock during the reception. It's not looking much better today, but Moss assures his mom that everything is going to be fine because even if they do sail out and there is a storm, the oceanus is big enough that it can handle it. Right. So when Moss gets back on board the ship, he gets word that the launch is going to be delayed because of the bad weather. So departure time, it keeps getting pushed, but finally the weather conditions clear up enough for the oceanus to set sail from East London. So the captain, a man named Yannis Avranis is a seasoned sailor. He's got about 30 years experience

and there are 571 passengers and crew members on board this ship. So normally Moss and Tracy would be performing a quote unquote sail away show out on deck once the ship like leaves the dock or the harbor, I should say. It's a huge cruise ship. Whatever. Not a dock. But the wind is blowing at 40 knots. So and the swells in the ocean are nearing 30 feet high. No. Yeah. So the shows moved to the main lounge indoors and even in these inclement conditions, passengers, they sing, they dance, they're all excited for the voyage. They're like into it. They also trust that the oceanus is big enough and can handle it. So that night dinner scheduled for seven o'clock and then the evening cabaret show that Moss and Tracy are going to be performing at is at 10 o'clock.

But during dinner service, the ship is rocking to the point where experienced cruise ship waiters are dropping trays and spilling food, which is something Moss has never seen before. Sure. Because that's their experience in being like rock, you know, everything's rocky and they can put a big huge tray on their shoulder or whatever. So Moss isn't really concerned until after dinner, when he goes to the office to pick up his and Tracy's paychecks. And as he's waiting for them, he watches as one of the computers breaks free from the hold and crashes to the ground. And that's when Moss decides he probably should go up to the performance area and tie down their musical equipment. Because he's like, this is getting crazy. And even though everyone's acting

like it's fine, it's fine, like, you know, we better be safe than sorry. So he runs up and tries to do this very discreetly so as not to cause concern among the passengers. So around 845, Moss makes his way back to their cabin, his and Tracy's cabin. And as he does, he notices security guards and crew members, some of them wet and wearing life jackets, running around the ship and grabbing belongings from their cabins. Cool. Right. A great feeling. Yeah. Just what you want to see on the high seas. Not haunting, not spine chilling at all. Ominous. Moss rushes back to the cabin and he tells Tracy to put on jeans and running shoes because they might have to abandon ship. Jesus. So once she changes, the two of them make their way up to the main lounge. So their show's

supposed to start in less than an hour. Yeah. And the lounge is packed with passengers that are waiting for the show to start. There has to be a jig box. Fucking put on some fucking rock and get the fuck out of there. There's like some music being piped in. Absolutely. And the whole boat's just like... Okay. So around 9.30, the rocking gets more violent and then the power goes out. What's up, Titanic? Like I would just lose my mind. Right. That cool. So the power goes out, the emergency lighting comes on. It's a dim. It's not the same. So Moss and Tracy, along with another performer named Robin Boltman, decide they need to get up there and start performing and distract people and keep the crowd calm. So basically, there's an episode of Snap Judgment.

Glenn Washington's great podcast, Snap Judgment. And he also makes Spooked, two of my favorite podcasts. And this guy, Moss Hills, actually tells his own survival story. It's called Don't Go Down with the Ship. So you can hear him tell the story. But he basically says he gets up there and starts going, sorry folks, we didn't pay our electric bill. Like he's just, he starts riffing and they're just fucking around. They're trying to do. And because there's no electricity, they can't, they're not equipped to play normally. So he's playing acoustic guitar and they're getting everybody to do sing alongs. Oh my God. And he says that's fucking professionals. Total professionals till, till the end. Yeah, literally. Yeah. He also says that the key to any sing along in an emergency

situation is you have to play the Beatles because it doesn't matter what's happening around people, they will always sing along to a Beatles song. That's smart. I was going to say sweet Caroline, but I don't know all the words to that. And I don't think, I think everyone just knows the chorus. Everyone just knows. That Beatles makes sense. Okay. Okay. So this actually ends up working for a little while, but eventually with no emergency announcement or any communication from the captain of any kind, Moss and Tracy and Robin are no longer able to assuage everyone's fear. So clearly, you know, the lights are out. Yeah. Everybody's singing. The rocking's going crazy. It's like what is going on? Totally. So Moss leaves to find the cruise director. Her name's

Lorraine Betts. So it turns out that Lorraine has spoken to captain of Ronas and he told her that there's a problem with the ship's engine and that everyone needs to get ready to abandon ship. Yeah. Oh my God. Like would you have told me if I hadn't asked you? Right. Exactly. Like what's, why, why are you being secretive about it? So Moss was completely right. Yeah. Then when he told Tracy, which I love because Tracy's now in jeans and tennis shoes, but she's up there like, yeah. So Moss argues against this plan. He says the waves are too rocky for them to actually safely get onto life boats right now. And especially in the middle of the night, there's no electricity on the boat, which means they'll be in pitch blackness outside with

30 foot waves. If there's whatever 30 foot waves, I'd rather be on a giant boat than a little fucking thingy. That's right. So Moss is saying as long as the boat isn't taking on water, it's best to just wait out the storm until morning and get towed into shore in the light of day. Yeah. But captain of Ronas has assured Lorraine the boat is not sinking, but he still stands by his plan to abandon ship. Okay, bro. Good luck. Not peace. You're just like, hmm, there feels like there's a peace missing here, sir. Later days. And so something feels fishy to Moss. He, I knew something was fishy because I've already read this story, but Moss knew because he knew. Got it. So he grabs another entertainer, his name, Julian Butler, and he's the magician, which this is like really

firming up to be a great, you know, Ocean's 11 style survival story. It also sounds like a joke that the music, the musician and the nevermind ship singer walk into a bar or ship or a lounge. Yep. Well, and you were really close, but it's the musician and the magician get together. Oh, shit. Right? What did I say? You were right, you were right next to it. So Moss and Julian, the magician, sneak down below deck towards the engine room to investigate the situation for themselves because they're like, we don't like, we don't like just how this is adding up. As they make their way through the dark, eerie, abandoned underbelly of the ship, they find everything to be dry, which is a good sign. But then as they get deeper through the passageway, they discover that

a set of watertight doors are closed and sealing off an entire section of the ship. The doors are holding. So if there's a leak, it's clearly safely contained on the other side. But if Moss and Julian open the door to find out, they risk flooding the ship. So they collect all that information. They run back up to the upper decks to tell Lorraine what they saw, only to find members of the crew lowering lifeboats onto the embarkation deck and climbing in alongside women and children. So there's crew members that are like, I'm out of here and I don't care what the rules are, which is insanely gross. Make way. Still, Captain Avranos insists the ship isn't sinking and that the lifeboats are just a precaution and no alarm has sounded and no emergency announcement has

been made still. So at this point, any trust that Moss may have had in the captain is gone. He goes below deck again, this time armed with a video camera. And as he reaches the lower deck, he hears a rush of water. He appears around the corner of the stairwell landing and sees for himself, proof this ship is indeed sinking. Why didn't he tell anyone? He didn't want to, like, why didn't the captain say that? I don't know. I don't know. Anyone to panic? I don't know. Yeah, I guess he just couldn't deal. I don't know. So Moss runs back to the upper deck. He sees Lorraine. She tells Moss to come with her to the bridge and he follows and brings Julian. And when they get there, the captain and his senior officers are nowhere to be found.

They're not at the bridge where the where the emergency radio is, where you're steering the ship. No, it's all, they're all gone. Okay. So it turns out that the entertainment crew have been left to evacuate the ship on their own. Fuck. Yeah. Imagine that feeling. You're like, sorry, me and the magician are going to do this. You know us, these are seafaring fucking entertainers. At least he has a hat. Okay. So I'll tell you really quick about the MTS Oceana. It was originally built as a passenger cargo ship in 1957. And it was named the Jean Laborde. The ship changes hands and names at least four times over the next decade. And then finally in 1976, it's sold for the last time. It ends up with a Greek shipping company that manages cargo

ships, tanker vessels, and cruise ships called Iperotiki lines. I'm definitely not pronouncing that right. Iperotiki lines renames the ship the Oceanus and renovates it to operate solely as a cruise liner. By 1988, the cruise tour business sees such a boom in South Africa that the company TFC Tours of Johannesburg charters the Oceanus for eight months, prompting the ship's 1991 journey. So that's just kind of basically how it got here. And the fact that like cruise ships were and taking cruises was really popular. But this ship may not have been the best in the biz. Can we, can you and I and everyone listening agree that we won't get on a cruise ship that is more than a quarter of our age, everyone? That's, that's good. That's a great agreement. I feel like

the newer, the better, but also the idea and we've taught, I think we've talked about this before, because I went on a cruise with my parents. My parents used to work on cruise ships and that's how they met. But the one time there was a storm. Yeah. And I was like, I need to get off this thing right now. It was so scary to me. And it wasn't bad at all. It was just a little bit of, it's not turbulence on a ship. Rocking. Yeah, I mean, turbulence. I mean, there's a word for it. But it's so, I don't want to be on the ocean in bad times. I've never been on a cruise. I, unless it's on the Rhine or some like calm river where I get to go to the fucking alpines or whatever the fuck. Hell yeah. The alpines. The alpines. I don't know what that means. I, is that a bar,

or the Rhine? I don't want to fucking get on a giant boat. I don't. And then the ocean is like, can we stop pretending we know the ocean so well that we can just fuck around on it and do what we want? Like, please stop it. Guys, fucking. Here be monsters. I've said it before. We know less about the depths of the, the deepest depths of the ocean. Let me read out motherfucking space. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. Which also don't make me start arguing why that means the Loch Ness monsters real. Okay. I believe it. Okay. So, so the ocean is racks up thousands of miles of travel between 1976 and 1991. And it's got the wear and tear to show for it. There's loose whole plates. And there's an ill fitted ventilation pipe creating a 10 centimeter hole in what's supposed to be a

walled barrier, aka the bulkhead between the ship's generator and the sewage tank. So there's supposed to be just a straight up wall, as you would imagine, with, with no 10 centimeter holes in it. But so the ship sewage system is also in need of repair. After all the showers and toilets across the entire ship start overflowing with bilge water on a voyage to Mozambique in the early 90s. And as a result, several of the non return valves on the sewage holding tank are removed for repair. But unfortunately, those repairs are not made by the time the oceanists set sail for Durban on August 3rd, 1991, which explains why at around 930 p.m. on the day that we're talking about, the ship's engineer hears an explosion coming from the engine room. When he goes to

inspect it, he finds water pouring into the generator room through the hole. This flood quickly shorts out the generators and cuts the power to the entire ship, including the engine. So when all the lights went off and they had to do their acoustics sing along, there was no engine power at that point. Cool. The whole ship was dead. Was this some sewage water or just water water? It's sounding to me like sewage is in the mix here. Yeah. Can I just say more like Oceanus? I mean, that's your choice. Stephen, edit that out. That was juvenile, I refuse. No. No, you can do it. I refuse. That's right. Stephen, stand up as the editor. Fine. Leave it. Leave it. But I take no responsibility for that.

You delivered it with such confidence. You're like, can I just say? Yeah. No, I was proud of it. And then you had a blank face. And I was like, don't do that. Okay. I was just going to say you, because you go, can I just say, and then I was like, you can, but this is a permanent record of our time. Yeah, but that's on you. Email Georgia Heartstark at myfavoritmurder.com. Okay. At anuspuns.com. Okay. So as the water rises in the engine room and makes its way through that hole that was left open from the unfitted ventilation pipe and it starts flooding the waste disposal tank, the engineers able to seal off this section of the ship with those watertight doors. But once that water infiltrates the waste disposal tank,

the water begins to overflow through all of the showers, sinks and toilets in the lower levels, ultimately leading to widespread flooding. So I think what happened is the, because the lower levels are usually where the crew lives. And so all of their toilets and showers started flooding with wastewater and they were like, this ain't good. We're out. Yeah. I think that's the, but that is my absolutely amateur math that I'm doing. You're an electrical engineer, aren't you? Right. And I don't want to brag about that, but it's high time I did. 220, 221, whatever it takes. No. Mr. Ma, too old? I loved it, but I don't remember that. I did love Mr. Ma. Go on. Okay. So it's standard procedure in an emergency like this for the ship's crew

to close the lower deck port holes to prevent water from climbing any higher. However, because most of the crew panics in this situation, they forget this crucial step. Instead, they run and grab their belongings and rush to the embarkation deck to save themselves. I mean, it's just like natural, your natural reaction, right? Like, what if you're like... Yeah. I mean, if you, but the thing is, if you're a passenger, but if you work on the ship... Yeah, but you get paid minimum wage and you get a fucking shitty ass room to share with some fucking guy who smells, who also works there. True, but it's that thing of like, if you're sitting in the exit row and they go, hey, do you agree to help with this door? You go, yep.

Then you've agreed to help with the door. You don't then when there's an emergency go, sorry, that's too much for me because you already agreed. So like, yeah, all they're asking them to do is close the portals. Yeah, some basics. Got it. Shut some shit down. So everyone else doesn't die and it's like, forget it. I have to grab my precious Hummel figurines and run to the embarkation deck. Okay. There we are. Maybe that's oversimplifying things. Okay. So this means that Moss, Tracy, Lorraine, and the other entertainers are left to lead the evacuation efforts themselves. They lower the lifeboats and organize groups of 99 to board them. That's the maximum capacity on these lifeboats. But as they're trying to do this, the storm and the ocean

swells are causing the lifeboats to swing out and then come crashing back against the ship. So they try their best to keep the lifeboats pressed tight against the ship by placing one foot on the ship and one foot on the lifeboat and then trying to get as many people on, onto the lifeboat before it swings away again in a swell. So you can imagine this is, it's not like standard kind of evacuation process. This is like emergency evacuation. Moss keeps running downstairs to check how high the water level is getting. And once it's high enough, he decides it's time to move the passengers who are now all gathered in the main lounge waiting to get brought out to the lifeboat area. He now decides they have to come out onto the open

deck. Even though it's cold and wet, at least no one's going to get trapped inside if the boat actually starts to sink. So now it's three in the morning and Tracy and the rest of the evacuation team are lowering the last available lifeboat into the water. There's nearly 300 people left on board and the few crew members who are left now shove their way through the waiting passengers. They get on this lifeboat and they try to lower it down even though there's only 50 people on it. Guys, Lorraine and Moss start arguing with them, saying if they're going to do this, they at least have to fill the lifeboat all the way before departing. And by starting this argument, it buys them time to load 20 more people onto the lifeboat before the crew members take back control

and lower it down into the sea. There are only 70 people on this lifeboat. I take back what I said about them escaping. Right? Yeah, you can do that. Also, I think that that energy, like the panic energy, you know how like pilots are always like the most dead, dead pan? And I think it's because panic energy is catching. Once one person starts to panic, everyone goes, it's every man for himself, you just got to go fucking do our thing. Right. And it's like, if you're going to work on the ship, you have to work, do your part to keep people calm for yourself and other people, or it just is mayhem. Well, I think that the panic being catching two or, you know, what's it called? When you catch something, the being chill is as

well. So if you're like the chill guy, and if you're fucking Vince Averill and not panicking that you're missing your flight, you and Karen and Georgia are missing your flight, then we're not going to panic either. Right. Exactly. Yeah. It's a, it's a control. I mean, it's not an easy thing to do as we've watched Vince Averill not panic in many situations. When he got, when he had weed in his pocket and fucking Amsterdam at the airport. Man, that was scary. Oh, that was Sarah. Man, that was scary. He was chill. He sent us on ahead without him. You don't know me. Go get on the plane. Shit. Okay. While this evacuation whole process was taking place,

Moss, Lorraine and Julian were all taking turns running to the bridge to send out distressed signals on the radio. So each one would like go when the other ones were trying to load people onto the lifeboat. So insane. So after several attempts, Moss finally makes contact with a Captain Detmar on a nearby ship called the Nedloid Meridus. So Captain Detmar, a calm, level-headed, experienced seaman, asks Moss a bunch of technical questions to assess the situation, like their quote, exact position, how many people were still on board, our angle of lean, and our current strengths. When Moss is unable to answer any of these questions, Captain Detmar asks Moss what his rank aboard the ship is, and Moss responds, I'm not any rank. I'm a guitarist.

Oh my God. And then Captain Detmar looks into the camera and says, I'm getting too old for this shit. No. Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. Karen being a sitcom writer over here. I have to. I have to. I'm not above it. Oceanus. Look, we're all the same. We're all the same in the comedy. Okay. So knowing this technical information is obviously essential to organizing the rescue of this sinking ship. So Moss starts to search the ship for Captain Avaranus because he's like, he's still on here somewhere because he knows who's left. He finally finds him on the pool deck, huddled under a staircase smoking a cigarette. What the fuck? Ding dong. Right? Yeah. He's melting down. It's flight or freeze or smoke or smoke under a fucking set of stairs. So Moss

pleads with the captain to come back to the bridge and talk to Detmar and give him this crucial information. But Avaranus refuses to go. So Moss is forced to run back and forth across the rocking slippery deck, getting answers from Avaranus and then running back to the bridge to report those answers to Captain Detmar on the radio. How fucking ridiculous. The last, perhaps most crucial estimate that Captain Avaranus gives to Moss is how much time he thinks they have left before the ship goes completely underwater. And that is about two to three hours. Oh, no. So now it's four in the morning. And with Captain Detmar's help, they have a rescue plan in place. Helicopters from the South African Air Force are going to be sent to airlift the remaining 220 passengers

off the boat. Divers from the South African Navy are going to be in position in the water around the boat to rescue anyone who might go overboard. And in the meantime, the Nedloid Meritus and several other ships in the area will form a wide circle around the Oceanus. They won't be too close because the sea is still choppy and they don't want to run into the boat, but they'll, they basically will be close enough to pick up anyone who goes into the water. So Moss and Lorraine decide to split up the group of remaining passengers and set up helicopter rescue sites on the four deck and on the rear deck. Performer Robin Boltman stays on the bridge to maintain contact with the surrounding ships. So Robin Boltman is on the radio. Wow. The first helicopters arrive about

630 in the morning. Captain Avaranus, who's basically been useless this whole time, smoking, whatnot. He boards the second helicopter and abandoned ship at 7am. Come on. He, so he kind of elbows his way. He's just like, I gotta go. Yeah. The entertainment staff directs the rest of the evacuation alone. Like no one's shocked. However, fuck this shit. However, what the living fuck? Truly. Rescue helicopters drop down rope harnesses and Moss and Tracy load passengers into the harnesses two at a time. So Moss, Tracy, every, all of those people, the band, like, yeah, it's literally the entertainers, the magicians, singers, people who don't fucking train him too. It's like, Oh my God. So insane doing it. So at this point, the ship is fully

sinking. The deck is sloped at a steep angle and the ship is rolling onto its starboard side, which is its right side. Port is left, starboard is right, aft is the back, four is the front. I looked it up on Google. Damn girl. Right. We must learn as we, as we tell these stories. No. So now it's a race against the clock to get everyone airlifted off this before the ship goes completely underwater. As the passengers are lifted up to the helicopter, their swinging limbs are knocking Moss around and more than once he has to grab the deck railing to keep himself from falling off the ship by getting knocked by them. Thankless. At one point, the harness itself gets stuck on the side of the ship as the helicopter team is lowering it back down.

And with the ship rolling and bobbing still in the waves, if it dipped down too far, it could pull the helicopter into the sea. So Moss hangs over the side of the ship to free the harness and save the helicopter. And that's when Tracy loses her shit on her husband. And she's like, do not, what are you doing? We made it this far. And so she makes him tie a rope around his waist and then to the deck railing so that he stops risking his life every goddamn second, which I entirely agree with her. Finally, there's just 15 people left aboard, 12 male passengers, Moss and Tracy, who is the last female crew member or entertainer on the ship, and Robin still holding it down on the bridge. So they all get ready for their turn to be evacuated. Oh, and by the way,

one point, it did say that most of the entertainment crew were female. So all of these very brave men waited till the very end. Yeah. But most of the entertainment crew that were running this evacuation were women. Amazing. Who stayed till all the passengers were off. So these guys all get ready for their turn to be evacuated when the helicopters leave. Bye bye. So the last 15 people are clinging to like a more steeply sloped deck. They have to wait 45 minutes with Moss at one point suggesting that they all climb over the railing and they wait on the ship's side because that's now flatter than the deck is. So the decks like this and the side of the ship, they kind of go out and walk on there. Finally, the helicopters return. And on August 4, 1991, Tracy, Moss, Robin and the final

group of passengers are all airlifted to safety. Shortly after about 3.30pm that day, the Oceanus rolls over to its starboard side and sinks to the ocean floor below. So in an incredible display of bravery and calm, Moss, Tracy, Lorraine and the rest of the entertainers managed to save every single passenger and crew member from the sinking Oceanus. Holy shit. And Moss and Tracy make it out unscathed, although because of Moss's intense exhaustion and his dehydration, because remember he didn't really sleep the couple nights before because they're late nights. So he was totally dehydrated and he got to get put on a hydration drip at the hospital after being rescued. But other than that, they were fine. Oh my god. As for Captain Averonis and his crew,

they are alive, but they're not well. They received tons of criticism for essentially abandoning their passengers along with the ship. Yeah. He and four of his key crew members are evaluated by a Greek inquiry board and prosecuted for betraying their responsibilities of a ship's master, but they don't see prison time and the captain continues to captain ships until he retires. No. And Captain Averonis maintains that he left quickly so that he could help coordinate the evacuation efforts from the helicopter. He actually made a public statement saying, quote, when I give the order to abandon ship, it doesn't matter what time I leave. If some people want to stay, they can stay. Want to stay? You know what? I'm going to continue my vacation on this

fucking ship. Listen, if these hippies want to hang out on this ship, that ain't my problem. I got to go. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Cool. So after an experience like that, you would think that Moss Hills would be all done with working on cruise ships. But he's not. He continues to work as a cruise ship entertainer. He continues to do so. And in fact, three years after the sinking of the Oceanus, he is working aboard a ship called the MS Akeel Laro, which is a luxury cruise liner traveling from Italy to South Africa. This ship has 979 passengers and crew members on board almost twice the capacity of the ill-fated Oceana. I mentioned this detail because wouldn't you know it as they're sailing 125 miles off the coast of Somalia. A boiler

explodes in the ship's engine room and engulfs it in fire. But because none of the crew members are nearby when this explosion occurs, it goes unnoticed. And soon the fire spreads from the boiler room out to the rest of the ship. And by the time the crew realizes what's happening and try to put the fire out, it's too late. No. So instead they try to contain the fire by closing the fireproof watertight doors. But they know this plan can only hold for so long. So the fire begins to consume this cruise ship. Are we starting all over again? No. Once again, the entertainment director, this time a woman named Nadia Eckerd, it must play a key role in organizing the evacuation efforts. What was Moss like? Moss was like, are you fucking kidding me? Moss like pushes his way

through everybody and goes right up to Nadia Eckerd and goes, yeah, you're going to actually want to use me for this because I know some stuff. Or is he like, I'm first on the rescue boats. He's like, I learned my lesson being a good guy last time. No, actually, he, guitar hero Moss Hills has all the crucial information needed to organize the crowd and keep everyone calm and basically go like, here's what we're going to do. And they really did, they know that the communication is crucial. And on this ship, there's passengers from all over. It's a really diverse group. So they start breaking the groups up by nationality so that nobody has a language barrier. So basically keeping everybody together so there's always

people who can communicate to everybody else if they don't speak the language of the person that's trying to help them. Amazing. And so that everyone can constantly be made aware of what's happening because in this situation for this evacuation, it's not a slow sink, it's a fucking fire. So they're on a serious clock. One of the entertainers described how it felt ushering passengers into lifeboats with a fire approaching saying, quote, all the paint was peeling off the wall and we were struggling to get them in fast enough. And suddenly you could feel the heat right behind you. It was a very frightening moment. Wow. So the nearest vessel that's able to take on evacuees is an oil tanker called the Hawaiian King. And it's just a little bit funny because this oil

tanker pulls up. And because this evacuation started during like a party at night, a formal party, almost all the passengers are wearing formal wear as they exit the cruise ship and get on to the oil tanker. And eventually other boats come to aid in the rescue, including US naval ships. Unfortunately, in this evacuation, two elderly passengers die and eight others are injured. But miraculously, 968 souls make it off the burning cruise ship alive, including the soul of Moss Hills, making this his second cruise ship sinking survival in three years. Dude, enough. In 2000, Moss and Tracy Hill and their daughter moved from South Africa to the UK. Tracy opens her own business designing and making jewelry, leaving her life at sea for good. But Moss does

the opposite. He puts all his emergency evacuation rescue skills to good use and becomes a cruise director. Yay. I love it. He says that now captains listen to him very closely. Yeah, they do. Although once a week, he goes back to performing music. Sweet Caroline. Gurgle, gurgle, gurgle. Yes, if you want to listen to Moss Hill's firsthand account of the survival of the sinking of the oceanus, please listen to Snap Judgment. The episode is called Down with the Ship, and that is the unbelievable story of two time sinking cruise ship survivor Moss Hills and his incredibly brave wife, Tracy. Wow. Look for the helpers, right? I mean, as Mr. Roger said, look for the fucking helper. You didn't say the F word,

but look for the helpers. Look for the helpers and keep your eye out for the people, the captain smoking cigarettes under stairs and the fire on the cruise that you're on. Try to keep it aware of explosions, especially if you work down in the boiler room. Just don't go to sleep if you're on a cruise. Keep your eyes open at all times. And don't be afraid to communicate even when it's bad news. I know it can be hard, but go ahead and run that bad news straight up to somebody with a radio as soon as you can. It's all about being vulnerable, as Brené Brown would say. Be vulnerable. Be like, hey, this ship is sinking. Hey, I have a lot of fear around the sinking of this ship that's

happening right now that you know how a lot of fear about as well. Let's talk about it on the lifeboat. Great job. Fuck, man. That was great. So the sources for this story, there's a website that Moss actually put together himself. It's called www.oceanasinking.com, where it's basically his first-hand account plus pictures from early 90s people waiting to be rescued off of a ship. Oh, I can't wait to see the pictures. They don't seem that upset. I think that the entertainers kept everybody pretty calm for as long as they possibly could. I love it. There's also the Wikipedia page. There's the Snap Judgment episode down with the ship. There's a YouTube video entitled Oceana Sinks. This was pretty hilarious. I read this article. It's for The Hoot,

which is a whispering lane school paper, and it's written by an author named Joshua Sermon, S-I-R-M-A-N, and it just was entitled Weird But True Story, The Guitarist in Sinking Ships. And it was like four paragraphs from what looked like a high school newspaper about this story, which I kind of loved. Oceana's Captain insisted on early rescue diverses, and that's from The Desart News. There is a website called www.deeperblue.com that had an article by Philip G. Van Runsberg, a New York Times archive about this story, Wikipedia page about the sinking of the MS Akili Laro, and there is an LA Times archive article that seems to be staff written about the sinking of the Akili Laro, and the praise of the crew,

the survivors praising the crew. What a great job that second sip shinking. Do it. I'm done. I'm so done. I fucking did it, man. You did it. I did it. We did it. We all did it. We did it. We've done it again. We've done it once again. But I really thought this was going to be the short one. No, we did it all over the place. It's everywhere. Look at it. It's on the walls. It's on the carpet. Pretty gross. It's really disgusting. So let's just say thank you guys for listening. As always, you're our muse. You're our inspiration. That's right. You would stay on the ship with us and we appreciate you for that. We would all go on to the starboard aft part of the ship. Meet me at the starboard aft and let's get off the sinking ship from there. Or together.

Let's stay in the lounge and karaoke. Sweet Caroline. Sweet Caroline and I will absolutely grab a bottle of Malibu rum and pour it all over my face as that ship goes down. You know we will. You know us. You know that's going to happen. I guess the only thing left to say is stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton, associate producer Alejandra Keck, engineer and mixer Steven Ray Morris, researchers J. Elias and Hailey Gray, send us your hometowns and your fucking arrays at myfavoritmurder.com and follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my favorite murder and Twitter at my fav murder. And for more information

about this podcast, our live shows, merch or to join the fan cult, go to myfavoritmurder.com. Rate, review and subscribe!