My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 318 - One Spiritual Moment

Episode Date: March 17, 2022

On today's episode, Georgia and Karen cover the shooting of Nicholas Green and the 1971 Nashville plane hijacking. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstar. Thanks, that's Karen Kilgariff. And we're here to talk to you about Jaffa. What's Jaffa? Is that the game way? Jaffa was 70s or maybe 80s version of Mary Kay. Oh, so it was kind of like it was all those products, but with almond oil instead of parabens. It was, yeah, it was a pyramid scheme for the hippies. Why can't hippies have a pyramid scheme? I mean, shockingly, it didn't last. And I'm saying that

sarcastically because everyone wants chemicals in their fucking blue eyeshadow, right? That's right. I want to swim in saline solution and have my full face of makeup still on. I want fucking asbestos in my concealer and I want that shit in my, but I guess that's natural in mascara. That's natural. Well, you know what it is? You want the chemical version of Guano, of that Guano. Always. Which will dye your lashes and brows. That's all I've and give me glaucoma. I don't know how glaucoma works for people out there saying that's not how glaucoma works. I don't even really know what it is. So please don't. What we're saying is we want, we want our mascara to change how glaucoma works. I want it to change my eye color and I want it to change the negative stigma that glaucoma

has given the world. Has given. Yeah. And that's what this podcast is all about. We've said it since day one. The chemical de-stabilization of your face, but a podcast. But as a podcast. That's reminds me though, because I do have a chemical. I just, I'm inhaling chemicals as we speak. Because I just re-pinked, re-dyed the chunks in my hair pink that I had done way back when I wasn't 40 yet. Because I feel so fucking boring in this quarantine, new clothing, as I call it, new mother chic, that I just need something to show people and to show myself that I am not, I'm not a sweat. I'm not a normal sweat pant wearer. Oh, I see. Right. You don't want to switch back to full on tight bodice zip up dresses from 1952. No, no, no, no. But you would like the vibe of that

to come across. Yeah. I want the non-permanent like full sleeve tattoos to be like, look everyone. I'm not norm core. Like, you know, I mean business. Oh, no. Oh, a fire. Yes. The chemicals, the chemicals are setting off the fire alarm. Sorry, sorry. Oh, I lit a candle. I had lit a candle for some ambience. In this, is it in the same room or a different room? In the same room. And I was like, gee, that's smoking a lot. And then I just scared every animal in my house. You got an asbestos candle because you really are dedicated this to this whole idea. I was like, I'm gonna light a candle. Like, when do I ever light a candle? That's so like, you know, fucking mindful and shit. Yeah. And then the alarm went off. And then you got slapped for it. It ain't

not that always the way. Can I please have one mindful spiritual moment? I think that fire alarms and rightfully so are the most irritating noise on the planet. Yeah. It just, it could be loud without being high. Right? Yeah, it's like a chirpy, it's like the most agro bird. Does it have to scare the cats is my question. The cats are the ones that are going to wake you up when it's a, there's a four alarm fire taking place in your house. I'm fine. I have three cats. You will be woken. How's Hawaii? You just got back from Hawaii. Shit, dude. It was like a last minute trip. My friends were already over there. It was super fun. I truly, it wouldn't look like it. Like I don't have any kind of like a patch of pink to indicate this. I am such a believer

in like the healing power of the ocean and saltwater and just getting knocked around. Because the waves were pretty strong. The day we got there, we're like, well, we have to get in. But the second we got in, I was like, I'm getting out. I can't with the, like, I can't. And then that was the first day we went to the beach. The second day we didn't get in at all. It was, it was that and there was also a riptide. We watched a guy get rescued and he was literally like 10 feet off the beach. It wasn't like he was far out. Holy shit. And I will say this and, you know, please all surfers, let us know how I'm wrong about this. But they were saying, you can tell there's a riptide or there's like a bad dangerous patch of water. Yeah.

If the waves aren't just coming straight toward you, normal style, but like there's perpendicular way. I see that all the time. I didn't know that's what that was. Yeah. All the time as if I've been to the fucking beach and once in the past year. Georgia goes and stands at the edge of the lighthouse and watches the tide. Yeah. Every night. No, it's, it was really weird. And it was also, you could tell people were like didn't, it didn't seem bad. And then suddenly they were stuck in a thing where they just couldn't move forward. Worst nightmare. Yeah. And our last day at the beach, me and Adrian got stuck in it. No. Yes. But it was this weird, it was, it was really funny where you're not, at first we weren't scared because we were just like, we were just trying to move down

the beach, but in the water. Tell everyone what your arms are doing. Let you tell that part. I'm doing a little like Marchie arms because that's how we were like, we were past our waist in the water, but we were like, we're just gonna, it's like walking down the beach with your butt covered by the ocean. Got it. That's great. But then we got it. We didn't realize we were that far down. We had gotten pulled down a little bit. So we went into the patch and all of a sudden I'm, when I take a step forward, all the sand just goes away underneath my feet. Yeah. And so you're weirdly like, Oh, I can't get me. I can get no purchase here. And we did that for just like two minutes. And I was like, well, I'm not saying anything because I don't want us to panic. And

then Adrian turned and looked at me and I go, this is a bad batch. I think that she goes, it is, it is. And but luckily we like, we just kind of powered forward. But there were lifeguards watching us because it was the area to not do that in. They were like, these two girls, they're next. Those pale sunburn girls might need some help. Yeah, they don't know about this ocean. Those very, very pale people. But so luckily we didn't, we didn't need assistance. That would have been so humiliating. We powered out, but it was super fun. It was so nice. And of course I met several people. We went to a lovely dinner at a very fancy restaurant there. And our waitress turned out to be a murderer. So there was friends all over the place.

It was exciting. It was really nice. It was a nice getaway. How many wait staff murdering us? Do you think we have legion? I bet there's a big amount doing the side work. You got to put something in your earbuds, right? Yeah. Well, I was kind of impressed because she said, she goes, my ex turned me on to this podcast. And she was, he was a chef at the last restaurant I worked at. And I was like, hey, that never happened. Chef arenas? The restaurant community is buying this. I love it. Because I've been watching Top Chef a lot lately. And I'm like, those chefs are so smart and their mouths are just, they work so well. They work their asses off too.

Yeah, they do. Yeah. It was a, it's pretty impressive when literally if I cut up an apple, literally eight out of 10 times, I will cut my finger. Just, just cutting a standard Fuji apple with a fucking butter knife. And there's no sharpness involved. No, you cut your finger on the apple and you're like, well, how does that even happen? I am once again defying physics. Watching anything, reading anything. So there's a true crime series on prime right now that stars my hero, Steve Kogan. So I was like, wow, someone produced a TV show for me. And when I started watching and I'm like, Georgia told this story. And it's that case of Steven Lawrence who got in England, who got jumped by a bunch of racists and killed in the

street. Oh, it's that story? It's that story. And Steve Kogan plays the, when they reopen the investigation, he plays the cop that headed up the reopening. Oh, I don't know why I thought it was about. What's that radio DJ pervert pedophile's name? I need more than that. You called him the wrong name. Hold on. Oh, oh, yes. I don't, I'm scared to say that name now because I got it so wrong before. And I defiled the name of the lead singer, the Bronski beat. Steven's got it. Jimmy Sapple. Jimmy Sapple. Yeah. I thought it was, I thought it was that. Okay, I'll watch this for sure. It's called conviction. Conviction. Okay. And it's only for, you know, that's like their, it's a limited series. It's just really great to watch, you know, the story of

like the cop that goes in there and it's like there was a whole room, they shut down one of the precincts. I don't know if they call them over there. And there's a whole room of boxes of evidence and stuff that hadn't been processed or even looked at. And he, as this older cop was just like, why? What's the problem? But it was corruption. That's good. I'll give you a hint. Spoiler alert alert. There's corruption. Wait, what? Yeah. Cool. How about you? I don't know. We've just been watching a lot. We've been doing the like top chef stuff. And then that's it. Like, it's just been boring around here. Yeah. Any podcasts? No, just like, like mystery books that aren't that great, like listening to them that are like fine. And then

the twist is like, yeah, I guess that, but it was still satisfying to like have something to listen to while you dye your hair. You know, yeah, always. Oh, I was going to say, and this was from a little while ago, but the HBO Max series, Black and Missing won a Spirit Award. Oh, wow. So if people haven't watched Black and Missing, you absolutely have to. It's critically claimed, it's award winning, and it's very important. And it's all those stories that we never hear about. Awesome. Oh, remember how I told you two weeks ago, a million years ago, and we recorded about how I asked Vince to get some survival packs. Yeah. And I just tasked him with it because I couldn't fucking deal with it. And like, we talked about the bucket and like freeze dried food and shit. So

a week later, a bunch of survival shit shows up at my house, like packet, you know, sent to my house. And I open it and there's like a survival backpack for like three days. And there's an animal pet survival backpack. And then there's two one for each of our car. And I was like, oh my god, Vince, you did it. Thank you. And he was like, I didn't do that. I totally forgot about it when you told me because I thought you were being crazy. And it turns out my mom and my stepdad, John, for our for mine and Vince's wedding anniversary, out of fuck, I hadn't even mentioned it to her, sent us a fucking like, what do they call it, survivalist? What are the crazy people call it? End of Worlders? What do they call it? Doomsdayers. Preppers. Preppers sent us a whole

prep words pack, including one for cookie, which I was just like, I know you're doing this for a different reason than I am. And like, I could fight about this, but I am so touched. No, you don't have to fight. You can just get right on face value and walk away from that. I did. I was just touched because also it's like, hey, you guys are related. Yeah, you're both worried. And it's like, well, I think something might happen too. So we're at least similar on similar pages. I just think that it's for a different reason than she thinks. But then I get an email that tells me that they heard the podcast and about the survival thing and like how expensive those buckets of freeze dried food is. And it turns out one of our listeners has a blog called unprepared

about being prepared and has a whole article that they wrote about how to do it on a like on a budget. So just get your own fucking bucket, you go to the fucking dollar store and this is what you fill it up with and they tell you what to do. So I was just like, I love that. And then all these articles that are these blog posts they do about like matters of concern this week about the fucking gas prices and start your own victory garden. So it's good that there's someone parsing it and being like, I pay attention to this all the time. Yeah. Here's like the idea of a victory garden is a great fucking idea. Absolutely. It's like, and that's also like, what do you actually need? Because he was saying that, you know, I got one of those bags that are sold by the fucking

people who are those people telling you to freak out. And it's just a bunch of stuff you don't need. So here's what you actually need. And here's where you can buy it and put it together yourself. You know, how to think like a prepper. It's like stuff like that. So that is unprepared.life. I guess is the new thing we need to get my favorite murder.life. Now. Dot life, they had to start a new. What about dot org? I feel like even if you're not a charity, you should be able to use it. Definitely. That and that is what this podcast is about glaucoma and orgs. Yeah. That's why we're here tonight. Should we talk about a little biz? Yeah. Well, guys, you know, there's a whole network of podcasts that you can listen to once you're

done with this one. And we'll just give you a couple highlights of shows that you might want to scoot on over to like, for example, over on I said no gifts. Bridger Weinecker actually has Paul Rubens. That's right. PB Herman is on I said no gifts this week. One of my celebrity crushes and I am just totally obsessed with him. He is a hero. He's a hero. And then to celebrate the 100th episode of bananas, Kurt and Scotty are joined by comedian Bridget Everett, who's new TV show that's in our watching. It's called Somebody Somewhere. It's so beautiful. It's on HBO. She's just such a joy and talent. I'm obsessed with her as well. If you've never seen Bridget Everett live, it's truly one of the best experiences I've ever

had in my life. She is an unbelievable Broadway level singer. Yeah. But she's also really one of the most original voices I've ever watched. And I one year at San Francisco sketch fest, I had to follow her. So she goes out and is singing and make you feel like I'm the only one. And she's singing fucking a full Rihanna. She's blowing the room out. Yeah. And then I come out there with my dumb guitar. I was I literally wanted to be like, I don't want to do this anymore. How about she comes back out, does the same thing again, and you can go to the green room. Whoever figured this line up out, you really didn't think about acoustically, what music sounds like. But Bridget is truly, yeah, watch her show. But also if you have the opportunity,

you have to see a live performance of hers. It will, it will change your life. That's right. Oh, over on I saw what you did. Million Daniel are doing two classic body swap films. They're covering big and 13 going on 30. So you got to be there for that. And then we're in greatest hits mode at the merch store. The here's the thing merch has been restocked in a bunch of styles and colors. So if anything was sold out that you want to just go to my favorite murder.com, go to the store. And then I also wanted to mention last week in our Jake Brennan crossover episode where he tells us his hometown, he emailed us after and just wanted to let us know one little bit, which is that he forgot

that when he was in the room with the escaped convicts, when they when they came on the TV, that one of them had a bullet in his leg at the time from escaping. So I feel like it's important. Jake, how do you forget that detail? Jake, it's pretty, it's pretty crucial. I mean, in that crazy story, though, it's like, there's so many crazy things happening that I could understand missing a bullet in a leg. Who knows? One was shot and bleeding. Sorry, it slipped my mind. Bullets were in the room. Such a fun episode. It was so delightful to talk to Jake Brennan. Yeah. I love that guy. He's so great. He's the best. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping and prepping handled,

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do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. Get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candice DeLong and on my new podcast Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths and cold blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse,

FBI agent and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton Serial Killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music exclusive podcast, Killer Psyche Daily, in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. Okay, mine's a quickie, but it's so incredible and such a huge story that I just found out about recently. So I'm going to tell you the story of the tragic murder of Nicholas Green

and the Nicholas effect it created. So the sources I used in today's episodes are two articles written by Reg Green, one for the American Journal of Kidney Diseases and one for the LA Times, the Nicholas Green Foundation, a BBC article by Harry Lowe, a press Democrat article by Chris Smith. Press Democrat, that's Santa Rosa newspaper. Oh, what's up guys? Sorry. Four New York Times articles, three by Alan Cole and one by John Taglia-Bue and an SF Gate article, your other favorite, written by Stephanie Salter and Larry Hatfield. So this is a NorCal crime? No, wait. Okay, yes. It's not, no, but they're from there. So yes. Okay. So September 9th, 1987, Nicholas William Green is born in San Francisco. And then three years after that, his parents, Reg and Maggie,

have a daughter, Eleanor. So the Green family lives in Bodega Bay, California. It's near you, right? Yep. That's right. Directly across from Petaluma on the coast. Is that the one where you'd get carsick striding there because of the smell of fish? Yes. Bodega Bay is the reason I can't eat fish of any kind. And it's also where they shot the downtown scenes from the movie, The Birds. Oh, I dill it. Yeah. Except for to Karen and her stomach. Except for the fish smell. Yeah. That's just a low tide. Sorry, go ahead. Oh, we're talking about tides a lot in this episode. So yeah, we're back on this, our favorite topic. That's right. So according to Reg, Nicholas is quote, a kindly boy who always looked for the best in things. So when you're with him, you always

want to be your best. Nicholas has quote, calmness and forgiveness that makes you want to be the same. So he's an imaginative and theatrical kid. He's the type of kid who will intentionally play with the kids who have been shut out or ignored. So a really sweet kid. So when Nicholas is seven years old, the family takes a trip to Italy. On September 29, 1994, the Green family is heading out in a rented car on the freeway in the tow of Italy, heading for Sicily. And what the Greens don't know is that Italian highways, I didn't know this either, are incredibly dangerous at night. So that year alone in 1993, 7700 trucks had been held up on the highway and robbed by organized crime gangs. Oh, no. On the highway. You think you're safe. You're driving. You're in a car.

Uh-uh. Some trucks travel by convoy under police escort and they, those ones still get attacked. Wow. And according to the New York Times, the highway the Greens are on is quote, renowned for holdups at gas stations and attacks on motorists. So seven year old Nicholas and four year old Eleanor are asleep in the back of the rented car. Maggie, the mom is dozing off in the passenger seat while Reg drives the car. Not long after stopping at a gas station in Calabria, Reg notices a car following them. After a few moments, the car switches lanes as if it's going to pass them. So he calms down a little bit. But when the car is parallel to the Greens car, it doesn't accelerate any further. It just stays there keeping pace with the Greens car.

Reg says out loud, something's wrong here and Maggie wakes up. And when they look at the car beside them, there are two men in masks, one with a gun screaming at them in Italian. The Greens obviously can't understand them, but they know the men want them to pull over, but Reg is aware that that's a bad idea because then they could just have them solo. So he accelerates and then the car next to him accelerates along with him. The car is drive side by side, speeding down the freeway for a time, and then one of the backseat windows of the Greens car shatters as it's been shot out. Maggie turns to check on the kids, and she sees that they're both still sleeping. And as she turns back to face the front,

another shot strikes the driver's side window. But then, for some reason, the assailants just take off. So Reg floors it. He wants to find somewhere with lights and people where he can pull over. He doesn't want to just obviously pull over there. And as the Greens race down the freeway, they come upon an accident with a police car and ambulance already there. So they pull off to the side of the road so they can get their help. And Maggie and Reg get out to check on the kids. But when the interior light comes on, Nicholas doesn't move. Reg looks closer and sees that Nicholas's tongue is sticking out and there's a little vomit on his chin. And it turns out he's been shot at the base of the brain. Oh, gosh, I know. The Greens take Nicholas to the ambulance

that was already there, thankfully, which rushes off to the hospital. Well, Reg and Maggie stay to answer questions from the police. When they make it to the hospital to see their son, he's in a coma. And then on October 1st, two days later, doctors tell Reg and Maggie that their son, Nicholas, is brain dead. So they're devastated, of course. But they know that possibly some good can come out of this tragic situation. They can donate Nicholas's organs. Reg later tells the BBC, quote, I know that at seven years old, he probably wouldn't have been able to comprehend. But I know as he grew up, this is just what he would have wanted us to do. There's no doubt about that. If the choice was between being angry at the people who did it and wanting to help somebody else

as the first priority, he would have undoubtedly chosen helping somebody out. Hmm. So at the time of Nicholas's death, Italy had the second lowest organ donation rate in Western Europe. Wow. I know. In 1993, the year before Nicholas was shot, only 6.2 people per one million donated an organ. 6.2 people per one million. Why? I wonder if that's like religious reasons or some kind of probably. Yeah. Probably religious and it's just not part of the culture. I think in some countries, it's just automatic. You can opt out. But in places like here, you have to opt in. So I think less people just knew about it or did it for religious reasons, obviously. Organ donations were so rare that half the children with heart ailments in Italy died

while waiting for a transplant. And because of how rare the donations are, Italians are blown away when news spreads that an American family whose young son has been murdered by Italians is willing to donate their son's organs to save multiple Italians. So they're just blown away by this active kindness. And it really shows them this generosity that they've never witnessed in this way before. So Nicholas's organs go to seven recipients. And I'm going to tell you about them. His heart goes to a 15-year-old boy named Andrea, who barely has the strength to walk across the room. He's already undergone five operations on his heart, but none of them were successful. And following the transplant, he lives for another 23 years with Nicholas's heart before passing away

in 2017 from respiratory failure brought on by cancer. One kidney goes to a critically ill 14-year-old girl named Anna. The other kidney to a critically ill 11-year-old named Tino. His liver goes to a critically ill 19-year-old named Maria, who's in a coma from liver failure. After the transplant, she, quote, quickly bounces back to health. And later, she becomes an organ donor advocate. And four years after her transplant, she has a son who she names Nicholas. And he goes on to serve in Italy's Navy. Are you going to, you're going to cry now? That was a little bit. I mean, this is like, this is a real, you know, you need one person to set the example and people are happy to follow suit.

Totally. His pancreas goes to a critically ill woman named Sylvia. One cornea to a woman named Dominica, who had never seen her son until she received the transplant. So he gave her the gift of sight. And the other cornea goes to a young dad named Francisco, who's going blind. Wow. So following Nicholas's death, Italy's donation rates soar. And within 10 years, the rates are at 20 per 1 million. So from 6.2 to 20 per 1 million in 10 years, which means they've tripled an increase greater than any in any other country. It's never tripled before. And it wasn't just Italy that sees an increase. It happens everywhere. And it's coined the Nicholas effect. The Greens later get to meet at least six of the donor recipients. Reg later says when he met them, quote, the effect

was overwhelming. Most of these people had been on the point of death. And that's when it hit you for the first time, just how big a thing this was. There was also a sense of how the parents and grandparents would have been devastated. You got the feeling there were many more people involved whose lives would have been much poorer if we hadn't saved them. So back to 1994, Italian police are desperately trying to find the people who killed Nicholas. The public is so ashamed by the lawlessness of the murder of a young boy visiting on holiday. And they're not sure of the motive, but they assume it's mistaken identity. The salience possibly had mistaken Greens rental car for one that had been delivering jewelry to stores in the region. And it's possibly and

probably mafia related. Authorities interview more than 1000 people until on November 2, 1994, when Italian police tracked down the killers, 21 year old Francisco messiano and 26 year old Michelle and yellow. So after initial acquittal, blah, blah, blah, the men are found guilty at a second trial. Michelle is sentenced to life while Francisco receives 20 years. But the convictions and sentences, of course, bring no happiness to the Greens. Reg tells the SF gate, quote, whenever I think about the trial, there's just a feeling of dejection. There are no winners. Reg and Maggie become tireless advocates for organ donation. They create the Nicholas Green Foundation. They travel the world, including twice a year to Italy, guest on television shows,

write numerous articles and reg even writes two books and more to spread awareness of organ donation and how many lives one person's death can save. They also help make Nicholas's gift a made for television movie that came out in 1998 starring Jamie Lee Curtis and Sir Alan Bates as reg and Maggie. Nicholas's story touched millions of people, especially in Italy. And at least 136 places in Italy are named after him, including schools, parks, streets and squares, monuments, even a bridge. They were all so touched by this story. In Bodega Bay, where the Green family used to live, there's an 18 foot tall Bell Memorial featuring 140 bells, mostly from Italy. And in the centerpiece is the quote, majestic bell, which includes the names of Nicholas and all seven

organ donation recipients. Wow. So I'm going to leave you with a quote from Reg Green quote, none of this takes away the pain, the sense that life is missing a vital ingredient is there all the time. But donating does put something on the other side at the balance for the rest of our lives. We donor families can feel proud that our loved ones saved someone in desperate need when no one else in the world could. And if you want more information on organ donation, go to organ donor.gov. It's like such a simple thing to do. I did it at the DMV. You just check yes when it says donor when you're getting a license. It's so important. So that's organ donor.gov. And that is the incredible story of Nicholas Green and the Nicholas effect.

That's amazing. And it is kind of mind blowing when people just kind of just don't make that effort when it could. I mean, there's no effort to it. It's literally checking a box and you could save multiple lives. I think it's such a taboo. It felt like a taboo subject. Like when I first got my driver's license, I didn't check it because I was like, I don't know about that. I don't want, that's scary. It's a scary thought. You want to think of your casket and your grave and people having a place to visit or whatever. But as I got older, I realized like, I don't need this fucking thing when I'm done with it. I'm like so much better to give someone else a chance, you know? Yeah. So I am proud to have that sticker on my driver's license. Yeah. And you also still

will have, here's the good news, you'll still have a casket and a grave. I'm good. I'm good. Bury me in the woods. You know what I mean? We're going to put you in an urn. Feed me to my cats. We're going to put you right out into the tides that you love so much all your life. Those tides, I can't stay away from them. Please put me into the rip current when I go. That was great. Good to know. Good point. Relevant. Thank you. And then I was thinking that if anyone has a hometown or a family story or a personal story about organ donation that affected them somehow, please write those in to my favorite murder at Gmail. Wouldn't that be interesting? That's a great idea. Yeah. Cool. It's like a survival story because also, you know, there's

people, there's people who donate kidneys and stuff. Yeah. It's like a lot of people do that. Yeah. Bone marrow. Totally. Yeah. So I'm about to tell you the story of the 1971 Nashville hijacking. Oh, a hijacking. So, uh-huh. I'd never heard of this one. And it is the, one of those ones that then changed authorities' procedure on how to handle crisis negotiation going forward after that. Basically, before that, there was no unified, like if this starts happening, you, sir, stop talking and we call in other people that know what they're doing. Oh, yeah. I had never considered that, like how that started. Yeah. Yeah. Basically, once it's a hostage crisis,

once it's this level of crisis, let's not just leave it to whoever is in charge at your local wherever, including the FBI, which is kind of mind-blowing. Wow. So a ton, there's an article from a, it's a website and I'm thinking it's also a newspaper called the Nashville Scene, www.nashvillescene.com, the classic.com. And that was written by Brantley Hargrove. Lots of info in this story from Brantley's story. There's also a Washington Post archive article by George Lardner Jr. There's Dan Whittle article from the Murphy's, Murfreesboro Post, an AP article and PR got in there. And then of course, the New York Times archive. Okay. So we are going to begin in Nashville, Tennessee in 1971. This was before

indoor plumbing. This was before indoor lighting, the 70s. It was brown. It smelled like bell peppers. Oh, God. You know it. I'll bring you there. Ask me anything. I was one year old. Okay. So it's just after midnight on October 4th, 1971. And 35 year old ex biology professor turned real estate agent George Giffy Jr. So the spelling of this is G-I-F-F-E. So I was reading it, pronouncing it Giffy. Yeah. Could be Giff. Then why would they put the E at the end? I'm gonna, I'm thinking you're right with Giffy. You think, okay. So George Giffy Jr. goes into a night club called the Labry Lounge on Joe Johnson Avenue. And then the owner of this night club, Bobby Wayne Wallace, is bartending. So these two men have known each other for a couple months. They're

friendly. So while Wallace hands Giffy a beer, Giffy starts talking about the club, how successful it seems to be and how he would like to invest $26,000 in it. So it's a real specific number. So in the months that Bobby Wayne Wallace has known George Giffy, he has noticed he's kind of a schemer. He talks a lot, not a lot of action. So he kind of brushes off this offer, doesn't really take him seriously. And also doesn't think he has that money. It doesn't seem like he has money. Right. Did you hear that? No, but I see her. Blossom just stood on my leg and then burped into the microphone. Oh, I'm trying to do something. I'm trying to do something. She's my best friend. You two, Frank, he's just sitting over here rolling his eyes. Okay, so a couple minutes after

chatting, Giffy asks Wallace if he wouldn't mind driving him and his wife, 25 year old Susan Giffy to the airport that night. He says he and Susan have been fighting so much so that now she's staying at her parents' house. So to make up for it, he wants to take her on a trip, get away from everything. So even though he's busy, Bobby Wallace agrees to give the Giffy's a ride to the airport. So around one in the morning, the two men hop into George's Cadillac. And the first thing they do is they stop at a restaurant and they buy two chicken dinners so that George and Susan can eat them on the plane. So from there, they drive over to the King of the Road Motel where Susan is working as a cashier. And she comes out, she gets into the front seat between George

and Bobby Wallace because it's the 70s and cars are 25 feet wide. So the problem is that Susan doesn't know about this trip. She thinks she's getting a ride back to her parents' house. So when the car drives past the parents' house, Susan starts screaming, asking what's going on, screaming and cursing. So despite her protest, George has Wallace keep driving to the Nashville airport. And they actually drive, because it's 1971, they drive directly onto the tarmac. Sure they do. Get on over here. He has chartered a small private plane. So apparently back then, if you chartered a small private plane, you just got to go onto the tarmac. Now it's about 1.30 in the morning. So George gets out of the car first and he walks over. So like he's parked

about 100 feet away from the plane. The pilot is standing outside and he walks up to 29-year-old Brent Downs who works for Nashville's Big Brother's Aircraft Company. Brent got a call to pilot this flight in the middle of the night and he didn't want to do it. But his son at home is 18 months old and his wife, Janie, is pregnant with another baby so they could definitely use the money. So he took the job. So George tells Brent Downs, the pilot, that he's a doctor and they have a female patient with them who needs to be treated in Atlanta as soon as possible. So as they're sitting there discussing the flight details, Susan tumbles out of the car and Bobby Wallace kind of gets out behind her and she runs up and is shouting to the pilot to Downs.

I'm being kidnapped. Don't believe what they say. And so George Giffey assures Brent, the pilot, that Susan's just basically confused. There's something wrong with her and that everything's fine. So when Downs asks George to see some credentials to prove that he's actually a doctor, George pulls out a nine millimeter pistol wrapped in a camouflage t-shirt and points it at Brent. So he then orders Wallace to pull out the nine millimeter he's given him, though Wallace would later claim that he didn't know that this was George's plan. Still, he follows the instructions and George orders all of them onto the plane at gunpoint. So when they get on board, George forces Susan to sit behind him on the bench seat in the back

of the plane while Wallace takes a seat behind the pilot. And there's also a co-pilot that's been sitting on the plane the whole time, Randall Crump, and he points his gun at them for George's directions. So then George helps himself to a flask from the plane's minibar and then he puts a gray metal box on his lap. He tells everyone that he's got plastic explosives inside this box and a detonator attached to a 10 minute timer. He resets the timer every 10 minutes to prevent the bomb from going off, but he makes sure everyone on board knows that he will blow them up at any second and can. He claims that he's working a mission for the CIA. He doesn't want anyone interfering with it. Yeah. Okay. He then orders the pilots to take off so they follow

his instructions and they head for the runway. Luckily, an airport employee was watching the Tarmac, saw guns being brandished, and they call security. But by the time the airport police get to the scene, the plane's already taxing down the runway. The police cars race after it, but they're forced to veer out of the way as the plane takes off. So then the police call the FBI and they report there's a hijacking. So George hears a voice on the plane's radio saying, Commander 58 November. So the plane, the name of the plane was 58 November. So they say, Commander 58 November, Squawk 3100. What George doesn't know is that Squawk 3100 is the code for hijacking. Oh, fuck. So Downs picks up the receiver and he responds by saying, okay, Squawking 3100,

which is him basically confirming, yes, we're being hijacked. A voice from the ground control comes through again as the plane flies off into the dark and they just say good night. So a little background on George Giffey Jr. and his wife, Susan, they first met in the late 60s. He was a biology professor at Tennessee's Peabody College. She's a brilliant student who earns both her bachelor's and master's degrees in elementary education. She wants to become a teacher. But according to a classmate of hers, she also would have loved to and talked about marrying rich, hoping the right man would come and quote, give her the life of a movie starlet. Let me just say now what Pat Kogarev would say to you, which is you can give yourself the life

of a movie starlet. George's 10 years, Susan Sr. He's already married and he has a daughter. But George and his wife have financial problems. She's accused him of adultery already. So eventually, she takes their daughter and divorces George and leaves. So very soon after the divorce is finalized, George marries Susan. That's in 1968. So together, they have a daughter of their own in February of 1970. They name her Susan as well, which is a fascinating tradition that I know. I actually know girls who are named after their mother. Interesting. Confusing probably. Yeah, or just like it's just out of the ordinary. But then you go, no one blinks an eye. No one blinks an eye into it. Yeah. But also like, how about you give your kid their own fucking

persona and personality? Yeah. How about some line of demarcation that says, I'm a new version. I'm a different human. We're starting over here. So this marriage also, not surprisingly, quickly turned sour. George has left his professorship at Peabody to try out some Get Rich Quick schemes. So first, he sells cheap suitcases. That doesn't do it. So then he gets involved in some oil scheme that runs through Texas. That doesn't do it. He also got into a scheme involving sand and gravel sales. None of these pan out. These are not the Get Rich Quick schemes he thought they were. Yeah, he also is failing to provide financially for his new family. So tensions grow and the fighting begins. So it's basically the same pattern over and over. Kind of what's

unspoken here is clearly George has mental illnesses of some kind. So I don't know how they, if they were less pronounced when he was younger, but they're the thing that kind of grows as time passes here. So in these arguments that Susan and George have, they lead to separation with Susan taking little Susan and staying at her parents' house. But George always shows up. He's a smooth talker and he basically just always convinces her to go back with him despite her parents' skepticism. But in the months leading up to the hijacking, which was in late 1971, George and Susan's arguments had turned violent. George was seen with scratches on his face. Susan seen missing clumps of hair out of her head. Yeah, awful. So she leaves him once again. And this would be their

eighth separation. And this time she tells her parents she's gone. It's over for good. She applies for a teaching job. But to make money in the meantime, she takes the cashier job at the King of the Road Motel. So George knows that the only way to get Susan back is for him to get a steady job. But his mental health is deteriorating. And he begins to make strange claims of working for the CIA, working for Interpol, working for the mafia. He also tells some people he's a warlock. So things aren't good. Yeah. No offense to the warlocks out there. You know, you're powerful and great. Ditto to the mafia, too. The mafia. Not trying to insult anyone here. Look, all we want to do is not insult people. Yeah. But you know that about us. Right? That

should be the given. So about two weeks before the hijacking, George goes to visit his father, George Giffey Sr. Everyone named after themselves here. Use the same names for the rest of your lives. And George Sr. can tell the pressure of the financial and marital problems are weighing on his son. So when George Jr. asks his father for another loan, which he's done multiple times in the past, George Sr. levels with him and says, son, if you don't get this, this is a quote, son, if you don't get this thing settled, something tragic is going to happen out of it. Your daddy's been in the army. You can't operate under pressure for a prolonged period without something happening. End quote. So he was right. Dad knew. The afternoon of October 3rd,

George Jr. shows up at Susan's parents' house looking for her. But because her parents won't allow him in the house, like, that's how bad it's gotten. Susan goes out into his car to talk to him and Mrs. Lacitch, which is Susan's maiden name, she watches through the window and they basically, the discussion, which is about George giving her money for the kid and for them, you know, to be okay, it escalates into a fight. And when Susan gets, tries to get out of the car, he pulls her by her arm back in. And that's when Susan's mom comes outside with a potted plant and threatens to smash it over the car if he doesn't let Susan go. He lets her go, he drives off. And then about five o'clock that evening, George calls Big Brother's aircraft company to charter a jet.

He visits his dad one more time, explains that he's going to go on a trip. And then around 9.30 while Susan's working at the motel, her mother starts to worry that George might show up at the hotel and get into yet another fight. So she calls George. She yells at him for not bringing Susan money like he had promised to do. And she warns him not to go to the motel that night to see her. She says, I'm going to be down at the King of the Road tonight when you come, I don't want you harassing her. If you have anything to give her, I want you to hand it over without arguing. So on this phone call, George shares his mother-in-law that he doesn't want to bother Susan. He says he's going on a trip. He says he just wants to give Susan the money

before he leaves. So now we're back at the airport. When he got out of his Cadillac before everybody kind of ended up getting out, he left behind notes he'd written, which is kind of eerie like they were kind of, you know, so he had written one to Susan, which is a combination of malicious accusations against her and expressions of love with one line reading, you could run a blade through my heart and I would kiss you with my dying breath. Oh, God. Another letter is written to his dad saying that he loves Susan, but quote, she knows too much, which they later would think it's about his shadowy past and these kind of fantasies or delusions he's having about working for Interpol and stuff. Yeah. He says he has no other choice but to kill Susan and then kill

himself saying quote, if the tapeworm kills the host, it is also dead. Oh no. So it's real dark, real dark. Yeah. Okay. So on board the plane, the pilot asks George where he wants to go, but it's so loud, you know, because the engines are going that Bobby Wallace has to be like the middleman relaying messages back and forth between the pilot Downs and George. So George says he wants to go to Cuba. Downs says that's impossible. It's a small twin engine plane. They won't be able to make it that far in the amount of fuel that they'll use. George says, can they go to Jamaica instead? Downs says that won't work either. He said they could go to Freeport in the Bahamas, but they'll have to first stop in Jacksonville, Florida to refuel. So then George asks if anybody

on the ground knows that the plane's been hijacked and Downs is honest with them. He says, yes, someone from the authorities will be waiting for them in Jacksonville when they land. George has no response. He just sits there quietly drinking liquor from a flask and holding on to the metal box that holds his explosives. Meanwhile, back in Nashville, Susan's mother is up. She's worried and she listens to a police scanner. So she's listening to it. She hears a report of a suspicious car that's parked at the airport in the wake of the hijacking. And when they read out the car's license plate number over the scanner, she recognizes it. It's the license plate of the car that belongs to her son-in-law, George. So she immediately calls the police.

She gets through, but then she keeps getting transferred and put on hold and transferred over and over. She finally reaches a sergeant around three in the morning. She talks to him about the plane hijacking and she asks if there was a girl with the hijacker. The sergeant tells her, yes, with long brown hair. And Susan's mother now knows that it's her daughter on the plane. She tells the sergeant everything she knows about George that he's, quote, a psychopathic liar and a neurotic, unquote, and that he's usually armed. But the police never relay any of this information to the FBI agents in Jacksonville. What? So as the plane lands in Jacksonville, the pilot released George's demands over the radio to air traffic control. So his demands are he wants

flotation gear. He wants charts. He wants approach plates for free port. And they also need a fuel truck, but he doesn't want anyone to be around except for the person who's doing the refueling. So the pilot, Brent Downs, emphasizes multiple times that no one can be near the plane except for the fuel man, instructing them to, quote, clear the area for at least two to 300 yards around the plane to make sure there's nobody around. So the ATC confirms they've received Downs message, and they will follow instructions accordingly. But before signing off, Downs relays one last man from George. He says center have another unusual request to bottles of scotch shivis 12 if you can get it. Yeah, so ATC passes along the communications to the control tower

in Jacksonville. And Downs again, asks them to confirm that the area will be kept clear. But now the response is a little more uncertain. They just say that information has been forwarded. So no one on the plane knows this, but an FBI special agent by the name of Francis Burns is sitting beside the tower operator. And special agent Burns has no intention of keeping the area clear, right? Right. So when they finally land, the pilot Downs is directed by the control tower to taxi to a remote corner of the airport. He assumes it'll be a secluded area so they can refill, you know, privately as they demanded. But when they get there, George peeks through the window and sees a random car with its lights off sitting close by. He commands Downs to ask

about the car. And when he does, special agent Burns secretly tells the tower operator to say it's just an airport vehicle. So when that message is relayed, George does not buy it. He wants the car gone. So Downs asks the tower operator to have the car removed, but then George gets frantic. And before the tower operator can come up with a suitable response, he sees, he's the tower operator is looking out and he just sees the plane turn around and start rolling back out onto the runway. And that's when special agent Burns comes out from the shadows and hops on the radio and says, 58 November, this is the FBI speaking, cut your engines. So Downs, the pilot, he stops the plane, but he doesn't cut the engines. Instead, he retracts the plane's flaps, which is

hijacked protocol signal to let law enforcement know that they need to back off. So this is according to standard procedure, the pilot is the one with the power to make this decision. But the FBI agents on the ground have no plane hijacking training. So they don't know that's the signal. Oh, no. Yeah. But they sure are calling the shots. Sure. Get in here. You've never done this before. Come and boss everyone around. It'll turn out great. We know better than anyone. Sure. Could we have these jackets? Yeah. So Downs gets back on the radio to let special agent Burns know that he'll comply and cut the engines, but they need fuel and everyone, but the fuel man needs to stay back. So there's two FBI vehicles positioned around the plane. So the agent in

charge James O'Connor and a second agent are the ones that are sitting in that closest car that George spotted. And then two more agents, including an armed sharpshooter, sit in the second car behind the fuel truck about 300 yards away. But when O'Connor hears the request for fuel, he says there won't be any fuel. So Downs, the pilot explains that the hijacker has about 12 and a half pounds of plastic explosives. And he advises that everyone does what the hijacker says, or they could all die. Yeah. O'Connor thinks that's too much explosive material to be realistic. And he thinks George is bluffing. So he doubles down and he tells Downs that he won't give them any fuel and that their only options are to fly away or to get off the plane. So he's making it like

an argument. Yeah. And basically handling this the way he would handle, you know, like a fight at a barbecue instead of this highly tense, really serious and like very, very dangerous situation. Yeah. So George asks Downs how much fuel they have left. So Downs lies and says they have about 30 minutes worth of fuel when really they have an hour and a half worth. Because technically, that's enough to get them to the Bahamas, but protocol dictates pilots have to have at least 45 minutes of a fuel buffer in case of emergencies. So Downs continues going back and forth with O'Connor telling him, quote, you are endangering lives by doing this. For the sake of these lives, we request some fuel out here, please. Even Special Agent Burns, the other FBI agent that's there,

says that he thinks they should just let them refuel and let them go. But O'Connor now will not budge. He's painted himself into a corner. And so he's gonna dig in. So George agrees to let the co-pilot off of the plane, his name's Crump, off of the plane to negotiate with the FBI for the fuel in person. So it's like, yeah, go talk to them. Okay. So where Downs has been able to keep his composure as a pilot, Crump is terrified and shaking. So Downs cuts the engines to let Crump off. But as he's getting off the plane, Crump starts to become convinced he's going to get shot in the back. Like he can't see how unstable George is. So he looks back at George as he's walking off, and he sees George holding the metal box and muttering under his breath, I will blow this plane

up. So he knows it's bad and he knows it's serious. So the second Crump's feet hit the ground, he's apprehended by FBI agents, he's taken to one of their cars, he pleads with O'Connor to give them the fuel they need, and assures him that George really is dangerous, that he's been drinking, that he does have explosives. But O'Connor doesn't believe it. And so, and he still refuses to give in. And with that, Crump says, well, then I'm not getting back on that plane. So word gets to the plane that Crump will not be returning, and that there will be no fuel. So George gets more desperate, which is exactly what you don't want in a hostage situation. So Bobby Wallace knows George enough to know that the last thing anyone wants right now is for him to get more upset. So he offers to go

negotiate with the FBI for fuel. Okay. But this time George refuses. So Wallace gets on his knees and begs George to let him try. It takes several minutes of begging, but George finally lets him go. So the moment Wallace gets outside, O'Connor grabs him and cuffs him. Bobby Wallace tells O'Connor that he wants to negotiate for fuel and he doesn't want to get back on the plane. None of that matters. Bobby Wayne Wallace is under arrest for air piracy. What? Oh, because he had the other gun. Yep. And he's he's like part of it. Yeah. So now O'Connor directs one of the other agents to move his car and block the plane's path to the runway. Oh, dear. He figures George's next move might be to take off, which would be disastrous in its own right. And with the plane blocked, O'Connor gives

the order for one of the agents to take out the plane's right rear tire. So that sharpshooter follows the orders and fires two shots at the target tire with a revolver. But the rubber's too thick and the bullets bounce off. What? Because I get to figure it's airplane tires like they get some wear and tear. Yeah. So I don't know. So O'Connor pulls out his own pistol and he approaches the windshield of the plane to peer inside. He takes cover with his gun drawn and announces himself and tells everyone inside come out with their hands up. So of course, no one responds. Yeah. Downs is sitting completely still in the cockpit. George comes up from behind with his gun. He fires two shots passed down through the plane's windshield, shattering the glass,

and barely missing Special Agent O'Connor. So O'Connor runs to the side of the plane, he approaches the door, and as he does, two more shots ring out from inside the plane. The FBI sharpshooter who's watching all of this go down through the scope of his rifle sees downs the pilot slump over and fall out of view. Oh my god. So another three shots sound from inside the plane. O'Connor tells the sharpshooter to take out the plane's engine, which is still running. He complies firing two bullets into the engine, cutting it off. And with the sound of the engine silenced, O'Connor announces himself again and enters the plane. And inside he finds pilot Brett Downs dead in the cockpit. And he finds Susan Giffy dead in the rear bench seat.

George Giffy has a bullet wound in his head, but somehow he's still alive. And when O'Connor grabs, takes the metal box from George's lap and runs it to the bomb text in the distance. They open the box and instead of explosives, they find a bunch of papers and a photo of a naked woman inside. Oh my god. So O'Connor was right, there were no explosives in that box. Yeah, but. But there were guns. Yeah. There were two guns on the plane. Authorities call for an ambulance. The ambulance takes George Giffy to the closest hospital, but he is dead on arrival between 5 and 6.30 in the morning. The negotiation efforts are lack thereof between FBI agents and the hijacker lasted less than 20 minutes and end with three people dead, two of whom are completely

innocent. Oh my god. That's 20 minutes. That's 20 minutes. So Bobby Wayne Wallace, who is the only possible guilty party who survived this hijacking, is arrested and charged with air piracy and with kidnapping. He's the first person to ever be charged with this crime in the U.S. air piracy. So at a trial in June of 1972, the prosecution argues that Wallace was an accomplice to George Giffy Jr.'s hijacking plan and he was in on it from the beginning. But Wallace's defense team argues that he did not know about it. He only helped to the degree that he did because George had him at gunpoint. Yeah. That he was basically the first victim. They claim that he's as much of a victim as anyone else and that if Wallace had planned to join George and Susan on that flight,

that they would have picked up three chicken dinners instead of just two. Oh, good point. And that detail, as tiny as it is, is enough for the jury to find reasonable doubt. And on June 21, 1971, Bobby Wayne Wallace, who is now 32 years old, is acquitted of both of those charges. Okay. Right. We believe him totally. It doesn't make sense. There's no motive in it for him. Especially because he's only known this guy for a couple months. Yeah. So there really is no motive. Yeah. But who knows? It's all so fucked. Who knows? Yeah. So with Wallace acquitted and George Givey Jr. dead, there's still one more party to be held accountable for this tragedy. And that's the FBI. It's clear their mismanagement of the negotiations

led to three deaths that were absolutely preventable. So Brent's wife, Janie Downs and Susan's parents together, they sued the FBI for wrongful death based on negligence with special agent O'Connor specifically named. The first judge to look at the case with no jury rules that O'Connor was not negligent. Janie and Susan's parents appeal this ruling, which results in another long and arduous battle. But this time they end up winning. Neither O'Connor nor the FBI appear to receive any sort of disciplinary consequences. But Janie Downs, who now has two children to raise by herself, is awarded $270,000 while Susan's parents are awarded $57,000 because they now have custody of their granddaughter Susan. Oh, wow. So basically, the hijacking of 58 November forced police

agencies across the country to change their approach to crisis management and it gave rise to organizations like the National Tactical Officers Association. So essentially saying these special circumstances need to be handled by very specially trained officers who know how to deal with hijacking with hostage situations. You can't just do it. You have to turn it over, especially if you've never dealt with anything like it. No, totally. So after all this, the aftermath, Bobby Wayne Wallace returns to his nightclub business in Nashville, but then he gets out of it after a few years and he starts working for Tennessee's unemployment office and he died at age 73 while walking to a college football game. It's kind of random. In the

immediate wake of the tragedy, Janie Downs is flown to Jacksonville to identify her husband's body and she would later say, quote, I come from a family known to be strong, but this scalded me emotionally. No one can be prepared for this. I'd not experienced anything like this. You have nothing to draw from and such a tragedy of your husband being fatally shot in an actual hijacking. But as painful as this experience is, Janie also says, quote, I don't have a lot of anger, for I realized Mr. Giffey was not running on all his batteries, so I won't judge him in any way. I'm sorry for his family and I'm sorry for the family of a sustained wife who also died in the hijacking. And that is the story of the 1971 Nashville hijacking. Wow. Never heard of that

before. Never heard of it. That's wild. Maybe because it got bungled so bad that people don't talk about it. I'm sure people in Nashville have heard of it. Yeah, I'd love to hear like, I mean, did it just get buried because it was so bungled and that's why I've never heard of it, maybe. I mean, it must be so frustrating to have something like that happen and then it's the government where you're just never going to get satisfaction. No one's ever going to admit they were wrong. Totally. Slimes on the wrist, especially back then. Well, not especially always. Oh, he's, but yeah. Amazing. Do you want to do a couple fucking hurrays? Sure, let's do it. All right. Let's cap it off with some positivity. You want to kick it off? Sure.

This one says, my fucking hurray is that this week I became a published illustrator. I was able to walk into the bookstore and find the children's book I worked on sitting among some of the books I love to read as a child. Through the pandemic, I studied for my master's degree in illustration and found it difficult, like many, to stay on track and keep at it. One of the pipe dreams I had during the seminars and lectures I had to endure cooped up behind a screen in my bedroom was that one day I might just make it into the bookshelves out in the real world. Today, for the first time, I saw my name in the fine print and my work in real life pages in a real life book. There were millions of times these past few years where I thought about giving up,

but it feels fucking great to say that I didn't and even greater to have the proof in my hands that I can still do anything if I really try. My grandma used to say, the more you want something, the more you probably deserve it. I'm pretty sure she always, I'm pretty sure it was always in reference to gin, but still I think it helps, Elle. I wish Elle had told us what book it was, but that's so cool, isn't it? I know. Yeah. Circle back, Elle, if you can. Yeah. I love that. What did they say? The more you want something, the more you probably deserve it. I wish that were true. I love that. I mean, yeah. I was just going to say over the holidays when I went home to Petaluma for Christmas, I walked in, I went shopping. I think I was with Nora and we walked

into Copperfield's books, which is the bookstore that's been there forever, independent bookstores. Please support. Our book is still displayed. It was displayed in the front. When you walk in, it was on the display. There's a big display that's front and back when you walk in and we were on the back where I was like, what? We're still here? We were on that and we were then on the shelf because it's not the biggest bookstore in the world, so I'm sure they have stuff, but it's like we were on two different shelves. I took a picture of it and I just stood there like it just is the most unbelievable, I don't know. So many things about this journey have been so surreal. I think that one, like becoming

published authors of a book that, you know, I don't think Copperfields would put that stuff out there just to be nice. Right. They're proud of you and us. I feel the same way. That has always been a pipe drink of mine is to be a writer and we wrote this memoir and I'm still so proud of it. I am so proud of the work we did in that book and that's so awesome that it's still, but they put it on. Thank you. So this one, oh yeah, and just like, you know, support your local bookstores. Absolutely. Independent bookstores need your support. Yeah. And Copperfields, if you live in anywhere in Northern California, I swear to God that the people that work there know their shit. They're so good at what they do and they even if like, I was looking for some book

and the man I talked to at the counter was like, have you read this? Have you read the new Eric Larson always? Yeah, it's the best. It's the best. Oh, this I love this. This is from Leonie Ann at LB Weird Thoughts. This was from Twitter. And she wrote to us and said, my fucking hooray is my job is a total shit show. So I started designing wallpaper in my free time. Just right. The coolest. And I just made my first sale. It's nice to know that there are people who believe in you, even when others are trying to bring you down. Amazing. As a wallpaper fanatic, that is, I didn't even think of that as a thing you could do. That's awesome. It's amazing. I wonder if she's on Etsy. Leonie Ann, right back at the My Favorite Murder Twitter to tell us where you are.

What's their Twitter account again? It's LB Weird Thoughts. Okay, cool. I love that. Oh, yeah, there might be something on her. If you guys want to go look at her account, I bet you she posted on it. But yeah, I love that idea. Okay, this is my last one. Hi, lovelies. Not sure if this is where I'm supposed to send this and they sent it to our Gmail. So yes. But what the hell? I'll take a shot. I just wanted to share my fucking hooray. Almost six years ago I was diagnosed with cancer. It has wrecked my trust with my body, particularly since I was diagnosed shortly after I got my biggest tattoo. Even though I have been in remission for many years, reoccurrence is always in the back of my mind. My fucking hooray is that I decided to say fuck it

and after five years of fearing getting another tattoo, I got my first tattoo again. Every time I get another tattoo, I feel more like myself. It helps me take back my body for myself. Love y'all and fuck cancer, Jill. Wow. Congratulations, Jill. Fuck cancer. Awesome. Fuck cancer. Tattoos do make you feel really powerful in a weird way. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, you're making like this permanent decision for yourself about yourself and picking a thing that you like and no, it's super cool. That's right. This last one's also from the Gmail. It says two years ago, peak pandemic, I found MFM and started from episode one, which makes me laugh so fucking hard. What kind of a debacle? Little did I know that y'all were about to embark on the wildest two

years of my life. You, my quote, murder girls have been the background to the craziest years of being a nurse, many road trips, buying a house, planning a wedding, and now expecting a baby. I add on to the hundreds of others who thank you for your openness about mental health, but I'm most grateful that when I get to think back on the best two years of my life, I know that you ladies were the constant soundtrack. I don't know what I'm going to do now that only have y'all twice a week. That's so nice. Isn't that nice? I love it. I don't know. I think you should listen to it on the half speed. Oh, yeah. So it takes longer. That's right. Or listen from the, listen then backwards, right? Is that a feature? Yeah. You can just like, we say some really crazy shit

that is hidden in the, in the backwards playing of, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's right. Yes. You're saying that Satan is behind all of our works. That's right. You know, it's true. Satan is our friend and our friend of the family and the pod and friend of the fam. That's right. Well, we've done it again. We did it once more. Thanks for listening, everyone. Thanks for writing in. Thanks for being a part of everything. We love you guys. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton, our producer is Alejandra Keck. This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris,

our researchers are Jay Elias and Haley Gray. Email your hometowns and fucking hurrays to My Favorite Murder at gmail.com. Follow the show and Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder. Listen, subscribe and leave us a review on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye.