My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 319 - Horse Camp

Episode Date: March 24, 2022

This week, Karen and Georgia cover the Cokeville Elementary School bombing and the abduction of Kari Swenson. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. Hello. And welcome to my favorite murder.

That's Georgia Hardstar. Thanks. That's Karen Kilgera. You're welcome. Goodbye. And we're done. Easy. That's all it takes to podcast.

Light lifting this week. Podcasts are easy. People who complain about them. Do people complain about podcasts? Just us. You know, there's been a lot going on. Absolutely. And a lot, a lot.

And that's the only explanation of all the things going on in the world that I would forget to bring up last week that the Sherry Papini disappearance and reemergence case how has come back around. Do you know that that case happened in 2016? That was the year one of this podcast. And you fucking called it that too. Now, I and the rest of America called it along with People Magazine who brought, I mean, that's the article I kept seeing posted on social media.

But they finally found through DNA testing who the undetermined male DNA was on her sweatpants and in her underwear. I forgot that that was there. Okay. That was there. And it was an ex-boyfriend that she did. Did you read that article? Yeah, she went and checked up with an ex-boyfriend for how long?

Like two weeks or something? Yeah, but like, it doesn't make sense. He said in the article that she claimed to him, sure, she alleges that she was being abused and that's, but then the entire time she was there, she was planning this. She was not eating and hitting herself and doing stuff to look abused when she got back. Yeah. I think she just wanted to hang out with an ex for a little bit and shows a really bad way to do it.

But like, and truly, like for when you say for a little bit, it's like 29 hours. Like it seems like. Is that it? It seems like she like the hookup part, the fun part happened. And then she was immediately like going into false, racist, hostage accusation plan. Yeah. Yeah. That is, that still boggles the mind.

It's bunkers. It's bunkers. There's no, I think maybe she wanted to be famous in some fucking weird way. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like. Which worked. Yeah.

Let's acknowledge that it worked. Steven had no idea and was like, obviously he's not, I mean, not obviously, but he's not in a plan if he's like sending her off to the old fucking Steve's house or whatever who she used to date. No. And he was the one that was on like whatever the whatever the magazine show was where he was the one telling that story and he was the worried, like what a disaster plan. What a stomach ache of a reminding me of my late teens, early twenties type of plan.

I'm going to go, I'm going to do this and it's going to work. No questions asked. Goodbye. And maybe I'll seem kind of popular and get some attention, but also make incredibly racist allegations, which I think from the beginning we said were, it's like one was old and one was young and one had long hair and one had short hair and one was mean and one was nice. No.

He tied me to a pole. Yeah. Well, it'll be fun. They're definitely going to press charges against her, right? Well, that's what it seems like because that's what they, it seems like that's what they were waiting to do. They just were waiting for some kind of evidence to come through that was pointing in some direction. And then once they got that guy's name, he was like, sure, I'll tell you all about it.

Because you can imagine being that guy, then then watching this whole thing explode in the media. Man. It like, it makes me cringe because it's like, did she really think no one was going to figure it the fuck out? Oh, maybe she's one of those people like everyone's, I'm smart and everyone's stupid. So no one fucking understood, like think this and I'm too pretty to be victim blamed and like, you know, just some fucking delusional excuse for very, very bad illegal behavior.

Yeah, just remember, if you're going to go try to put some kind of a national plan into place. Well, I think people now realize because it's, I mean, six years later where it's like, no, people will analyze your whole life, they will absolutely boil that thing down and look into it further than you've ever wanted. And also because we live in a world now where you, people can look into your life as far as they would like to through social media. So crazy.

Well, that's a, you know, hey, it's fun to close the loop every once in a while. It is. I love those, I love those full circle moments that because we've been doing this for six second years of our lives, get to happen here. You've heard it here last year, not live on this not live, six years later after the fact that it came out, you got to hear it here in our hot take. And when we talked about it originally, I remember feeling so, I just wanted to know so bad at the time.

And then of course, which I don't know if we said or not, but of course, once you learn the real story, I bet you said this. Once you learn the real story, you're like, no, okay, well, now I just don't care. That's just dumb. This woman sucks. That's boring. Bye. Bye.

Well, unfortunately, I think there's kids involved, right? So like, that's going to be a real whopper to bring into therapy, right, sooner than later for those kids. It's just pointless. I know. It's like, oh, I hope you had fun for those first three days and then you starved yourself and found chains to put around your chains. If you want, if you want attention, fucking do something good, really good and get some

people to like you. I don't know how to do it, obviously, so I mean, good advice, but or start a podcast. Yeah, start a podcast for sure. But also, I think when you're pining for that, like the old days and some X's, that's just a red flag to yourself. Right. Like there's something else I need that it that none of that has really anything to do with that.

I'm just projecting. Yeah. I'm unhappy with this life. So I'm fantasizing about an old life. That isn't what I think it is. Yeah. Oh, goodbye. Speaking of X's.

What are you watching? What are you up to? Speaking of X's. I don't know. So a friend of the family, Stephanie Beatriz, oh my God, yes, who is one of the stars of Incanto, which we watched over the holidays and is a wonderful musical, is now the host of a new podcast. Have you heard of it?

No. Called Twin Flames. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. You have to listen to it. I can't believe it's real. It is so upsettingly and so like talk about cringe.

I haven't listened yet. There are people who make up this concept that you have a twin flame. There's one person in the world for you. That's it. And when you find that person, whoever it may be, is it a 22 year old man at your work? So be it. Or some random. Lucky for you.

It's so close. There. Yeah. And he's young. Yeah. He's right there. You don't have to go anywhere. He's not in Egypt or something, but once you find that person and you know, and you

do some, I guess, the exercises or take some classes, then your whole thing is that you have to go get your twin flame. Wait, who finds it out for you? Who picks it? Well, you, I think, arrive. I think this is, it started where basically is like, can you not get over the person that doesn't like you is the, is maybe the banner that unspoken, unwritten banner over the conference room that was the online class called twin flames.

You have to listen to it. It's these two. It's a couple. So they found their twin flame and they're there to teach you how to find and land yours. Any of those, let us show you how fucking seminars or whatever the fuck is like, just run the other way. They don't know how and they're not going to teach you jack shit, but how to fucking get rid of your money real fast.

Here's all I'll say is these people have no fear of restraining orders. They think that a restraining order is a good sign. Oh no. Dude, this is okay. I, a full credit to Jacob Tierney, my Canadian friend that no one thinks is real, but is. Of letter Kenny fame, who is the one who was like, you have to drop everything and listen to this right now because it's really, you can't believe it's real. And then you can't believe that people, because people basically join a cult in quarantine

like on zoom. Yeah. So they start going to these classes and then there's a bunch of other people that are like, I'm also in love with somebody who does not love me back and we're all together going to believe in ourselves and do what's right for us. And they, it's like a thing called claiming them. So they literally go to the people like I say, and you have to say to the guy, I claim you claim you yes.

And they're doing all this super, what would ordinarily just be really embarrassing if you were like in junior high, but these are fully grown adults who are walking up to people who like they've hung out with a couple of times with, you know, like from the near their grocery store or wherever. I mean, you have to listen to the podcast. I can't believe it. And then it gets crazy beyond like beyond and also Stephanie is such a good narrator host.

Yeah. She's so good. She's so multi talented. Yeah. I met her on a plane and she was the loveliest fucking person. Yeah. And she was at our, wasn't it our Vegas show? That's right.

Yeah. That's such a red flag where it's you get people at their most vulnerable. So you're in love with someone who doesn't love you back. So you're heartbroken, you're, you're probably feeling a little low about yourself, a little worthless, maybe, and like, that's how that's the perfect time to get for someone manipulative to get you to listen and follow their command. Yeah. And not think it through.

Well, also, it's people telling you exactly what you want to hear instead of like my mean older sister who'd be like, no joke, shut up about this guy. It doesn't matter. I'm sorry. You're right. Or like he sounds like a dork or whatever, like nobody that's going to help you out with the hard cold truth of like this, like this is about something else. Like you like this person, but you also don't know him.

So clearly again, red flag, you have to listen to it because I'm just talking about the beginning. Oh, my God. It's called Twin Flames. All right. I've been. Yeah. Are you watching Severance on Apple TV?

I have not. I've heard a lot about it and people really like it, but I haven't watched it. It's good. Adam Scott, speaking of Scranton, no, he wasn't on the office. I don't know what I'm talking about. No, he was in Pawnee. That's right. It's like this.

Okay. It's totally sci-fi, but it's also like a dark, I wouldn't say comedy, but like a dark, I don't know. It's fucked up. It's really good. And he's great in it and he kind of looks, it's, he looks distractingly like Tig Notaro in it, which is my only, my only problem with it. I'll send you the screen grabs.

They look very similar. They could absolutely be siblings. Yeah. Yeah. That's hilarious. But other than that, it's really good. And like it's got that sci-fi and like fucking Christopher Walken and then what's his name from?

John Tatoro. John Tatoro was in it and like they have a fucking like scene together that's so good. Like just, it's really good. I'm not telling what they are, but I've fucking been sitting there really into it. People were talking about it on Twitter and I of course love Adam Scott. Friend of the Karen. Friend of the Karen is, and also his aunt has been a teacher with my sister for like years and years.

Oh. Yeah. So we're, we're basically cousins, but not in the least. John Tatoro is great. Fucking Patricia Arquette is like, it's just good. It's just creepy and good and sad. And it's a Ben Stiller joint. Yeah.

Weird, right? Yeah. I mean, no, he's a good director. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I just wondered like why isn't he in it, but it's great. Well, and also it seems like a true departure from his usual like either comedy or, you know what I mean? Like that's, it's a different thing.

So yeah, he's branching out. He couldn't be in it because he had to concentrate. Yeah. We're, we're so proud of him. We don't. We're so proud of him. No, he's grown up so much right before our eyes. Let's see.

Do we just have two wrecks? We can do that. We don't have to like go forever. We don't, but I see something behind you that I just remembered. We have to talk about, we don't have to, we don't have to do it this week. Well, I can't have just an anonymous box in my house that I don't know what's inside of it. That you're not allowed to open.

That says fork on it. But it's also surgical mask. So it's a little, a little daunting. Look, I just want to explain to you that in the vein of the Thanksgiving flavored candy corns that we ate on air. Yeah. The podcast first eating on the eating on air. I found these.

Yeah, now or another time, whenever you want to do it, we need to try brand rocks, late night taco truck jelly beans. We got to do it now. Okay. Let me tell you what flavor is there. I'm going to read them to you. Margarita, churro, horchata. Okay.

We're off to a good start. Yeah. Then we go to salsa guacamole and beef taco. These people, the people at Brock's clearly had some youngsters take over. I don't know if the grandchildren have come in, whatever they're doing. They're doing it right. You know what I think? Take a handful and then I'll tell us what, what, I think we should eat the guacamole

salsa and beef taco at once. That sounds like torture. Yep. But you know what I mean? Like, so it's like eating a taco, you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Hold on. Let me separate it. It looks like brown. Brown. There's a brown churro. Brown churro. Brown. So, I think belly is, is churro.

Okay. And then the yellow. And horchata. What's, there's no yellow. What's yellow? Wait a second. I don't know. Are there other flavors as well?

No, I'm so clear. I'm going to roll the dice and eat a yellow. All right. I'll eat a yellow, too. Oh. Oh no. Beef taco. I don't know.

Oh no. Oh no, beef taco deli bean. Let's do a green guacamole. I don't mind that one. No. can be sweet. I don't personally care for avocado myself but I'm gonna try what I think is salsa. Okay me too. Oh that's very accurate. That is so salsa-y. But it's whatever Gen Z as you said Brock's grandchildren are. They're

doing it. Good at the flavors. I actually kind of like the salsa. The salsa is more I would say along the lines of Pace Picanti sauce as opposed to like a fire roasted salsa. It's a real classic grocery store salsa. I get a little yeah and I get a little Bloody Mary in there too. You know what I mean? Like a sweet tomato. Okay now we get to eat the good ones. Thank God that although I have to say compared to Thanksgiving those three were not that bad. Hortchata baby. Okay. Hortchata jelly bean is the best fucking thing I've ever had. Oh Margarita's helping me. It always does. And then churro. Oh yeah. Everyone

loves it churro. Hortchata is a great palate cleanser to get into that churro. Brock's we just need a whole thing of Hortchata jelly beans please. All right all we had Taco Truck jelly beans on a true crime podcast. I gotta say that I feel like Brock's maybe took some notes from the public and made these jelly beanier so even if you're having like a salsa taste there's still a sweetness where you can enjoy it. It doesn't feel as much like a prank as Thanksgiving dinner did. Right which I loved. I love that. I love that. The only prank one was the beef taco which wasn't good.

Yeah I think Rita would all know that. I love that. A lot of people posted this on Twitter to me saying did you know did you know. All right well that's what I was hoping was in that mask box. You were. I was hoping but then I was like keep your expectations you know what in check in case you're just like hey here's some leftover masks. Don't look in it. Don't look but here's some old masks. They're used. Cookie licked each and every one of them. Enjoy. Yeah I say Brock's welcome to the 2020s. Yeah and they sent by the way I think we said that they when we did the Brock's Thanksgiving candy corn this is not an ad in any way

for them. Not at least. They sent us a huge box of candy around Halloween which was like awesome and they're friendly and nice and they're friendly. Don't worry they're friendly you can approach them. I still have Harvest Mixed in the back of my like doodads drawer that it's in the kitchen where it'll be like soy packets and then like an old Twix and like just random stuff. Yes exactly and there's a bunch of like candy corn Harvest Mixed that just the pumpkins like we got all of it. So good. They spoiled us. They did. Thanks Brock's. Hey Brock's we'd love to be in partnership with you Brock's. Oh you know what episode that is is the one

you covered the Brock's heiress murder. Oh that's right. Yeah that's god if we could get it together to really align all of our sponsorships and integrations could you imagine how slick this fucking podcast would be. Yeah the hair dye murder brought to you by Madison Reed or whatever. Is there a hair dye murder. There's gotta be. Yeah there's gotta be a mid-century modern Scandinavian design murder. That's cut out the middleman. Yeah. Literally. Yeah that's exactly when we will cancel this podcast right. Right when we get good at stuff like that let us go. When we're professional at this that takes all

the joy out of it. Yeah no thanks. We're not here for a job guys. We're and we're certainly not here to impress. We think we've made that abundantly clear. Should we do some exactly right highlights. Please yes. Guys over on the exactly right media network which is our podcast network where all our friends and acquaintances have podcasts. For anyone we've ever liked just lately. Just you ever. But people who we like a lot. Yeah. On bananas this week Kara Klink and Lisa Traeger of That's Messed Up an SVU podcast will be the guests. So Curtin Scotty Kara and Lisa it's a party over on bananas. They're doing it. Let's

our crossover song. Yeah. And iconic actress Samantha Mathis who's in pump up the volume and American Psycho is on That's Messed Up an SVU podcast to discuss season five episode nine classic. What if we just kept talking about That's Messed Up just over and over. That's right. And Lisa Traeger is on Kara Klink's other podcast. I love both of those women. I did. Oh also on this podcast will kill you this week Aaron and Aaron discuss the ins and outs. This is how it's phrased on this. I think this is Hanna Crichton being funny. The ins and outs of lightning strikes. What a cool topic. Like it fits in there. It

fits in their little their their world but it's so like unexpected and cool. I know it's because it will kill you. It can kill you. It has. It's killed for sure. And why not talk it through because also I think storm season is coming around. So get aware. Everyone's scared of getting struck by lightning. Right. Yeah. They should be. They will be after they hear this podcast will kill you. OK. The MFM store is restocked with we're all indoor cats now merch that was all previously out of stock but it's now in in in. Yes the indoor cat art is by at mighty pigeon underscore art on Instagram. She's so talented. Looking for

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absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva Whitney Houston. Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death her talent remains unmatched but her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series Whitney Houston Destiny of a Diva will tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people let her down a dark path. Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can

listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. All right well we did it at the top and we're gonna do it at the bottom. Are we a bookending podcast now? That's right we're like a sinkhole starts up here and then collapses beneath our weight. Then we'll see you down underneath the pipes down into the hidden spring underneath your street. We might take a car too with us you just never know. You don't know. This week I am gonna start and my story is the Cokeville Elementary School bombing. I don't know if you know anything about this happening in Cokeville Wyoming in 1986. It's an unbelievable horrifying and

amazing story and the first time I ever heard of it it was because I saw a great episode of I survived with an adult man who tells the story because he was like eight years old and he survived this and it is kind of mind-blowing. Wow okay I don't know this one. The sources for this story are the website Wyoming history which is yohistory.org. There was several articles there and then there's the unsolved mysteries wiki. There's a New York Times article by Ivor Peterson and there is an article by Ryan Morgan Neg from the Desiree News. Okay it starts in Cokeville Wyoming on Friday May 16th 1986. So Cokeville is a very

small quiet ranching town in Lincoln County Wyoming. There's about 550 people that live in Cokeville and just over a hundred children attend the town's elementary school. So essentially what I'm explaining to you is this is a tiny town. Okay so the school secretary is named Christine Cook everyone calls her Tina and she's working in the office at Cokeville Elementary and just after 12 noon on Friday May 16th the kids have just eaten lunch and she sees a couple walking toward the school and coming inside the school. This is David and Doris Young David's 43 Doris is 47 and she sees that they're pushing a shopping cart

she can't see what's inside and she's just confused that this middle-aged couple is coming into the school like that but of course it's the mid-80s so you could go to schools if you wanted to you could kind of just do whatever you wanted. Yeah so they walk up to the counter and lean against it and just stare at her and they don't say anything so she gets up and says may help you after a beat David says yes Mrs. Cook this is a revolution and I'm taking your school hostage don't set off any alarms or make any calls or the children will all die. Oh my god. So then he basically does a reveal of what's in the shopping

cart and it's a makeshift bomb so essentially this bomb is composed of two gas-filled containers stacked on top of each other and then a bunch of rifles so he basically shows that the detonator is rigged with a string tied to his wrist and then it connects to a clothespin on a blasting cap that's a fixed to the top of a gallon milk jug that's filled with gasoline. The bottom container holds two tuna cans filled with flour and aluminum powder that are there to create a large flash explosion and each of those cans also has a blasting cap there are chain links gun powder and boxes of ammunition all

positioned around the bomb inside the cart to act a shrapnel for when the bomb goes off and then David explains that if he connects the two metal pieces on either side of the clothespin that's tied to his wrist all three blasting caps will go off and the whole bomb will explode. So it's very thrown together yeah and which I'm sure made it even scarier like because it probably looks crazy. Yeah. So David and Doris then pull a gun on Tina and tell her to unplug the office phone they then lead her at gunpoint through the school's halls and as they do they round up any teachers or students that they find along the way

and have them come with them and they choose a first-grade classroom and start directing the hostages inside. David positions himself and the bomb filled shopping cart in the center of the room while Doris goes to the other classrooms and rounds up anyone else that's still in the classroom. So in that I survived the boy that tells the story says that when Doris came into the classroom he was just a kid so it's an adult coming in and saying there's an assembly in the first-grade classroom and everyone has to come and the teachers confused but she goes out to see what's going on and then she basically is like come on children

we have to go. Yeah so they don't really suspect anything until they get into the classroom. So this normally the maximum capacity of the first-grade classroom is 30. Now there's 154 children and teachers and school staff total crowded inside and everyone is staring at the strange man with the guns and the shopping cart full of explosives. Well so we'll talk a little bit about David and Doris Young. David Young starts life as a very bright child but he has a hard time communicating, he has a hard time making friends, he grows up in Grinnell, Iowa as a lonely straight-A student and he goes on to study criminal

justice at what I believe is pronounced Chadron State College in Nebraska but probably wrong and he earns a bachelor's degree in criminal justice. Somewhere along the way he fathers a daughter but he doesn't stay in her life and he doesn't marry the mother. He does marry an unnamed woman who he has a second daughter with later on and they name their daughter Princess and David has partial and then full custody of her princess. So in the 70s David moves to Copeville Wyoming and gets a job as the town marshal. He's the only police officer in the town at the time which is around 1975 or 76 but he gets fired

just six months after he's hired for misconduct and for incompetence. Those are the only explanations that they don't it doesn't go into detail of what exactly yeah why. Oh no. So it's during this time he meets Doris Waters who's a waitress and a singer who works at one of Copeville's local bars. Doris has a daughter of her own named Bernie and heard that daughter's from a previous marriage so David and Doris they get married pretty quickly after they meet each other. They move to a mobile home in Tucson Arizona with their two daughters. So in Tucson David falls deeper into isolation and potentially delusion. He takes a strong

interest in philosophy. He starts writing a manifesto of his own that he calls zero equals infinity. Some of his influences include the novel Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance which peaks his interest in reincarnation as well as much darker material like propaganda from white supremacist groups. So the hate groups give him the idea of a quote-unquote brave new world or he refers to it as BNW in his manifesto. He believes that there is an ideal world that can be achieved through ethnic cleansing. Boring. It's been done and fucking taken down before, dude. It's been done and it's been proven by the

people who believe in it that it's just simply ain't it. Can we move on fucking racist pieces? Can we evolve? Will we ever evolve as a people? That ain't it. If you need it to be everybody else, that's when you must turn to yourselves and say, what am I doing? If you can fucking pinpoint the problem as a certain people, you gotta fucking turn that pointing finger back up your fucking into your eye. Stupid idiot. You already got the three. You've got the three pointing back. You're pointing out here. Three pointing back with a fourth if you can turn your thumb pointing out there. I'm trying it. It looks silly. Let's move

on. Let's move on. Hopefully that did it. Hopefully that cured that delusion that people have. Okay, so David, who never really wanted to work, he relies on Doris's house cleaning and waitressing to support the family. He tries to come up with get rich quick schemes, but none of those work out. This is like so much like the airplane hostage story that I told last time. Totally. Totally. Same personality type. His idea, his first idea was to take a jetliner and hold that hostage for ransom, but he couldn't make that happen. In the 80s, he concocts a plan that he calls the biggie. He thinks this is his best plan yet. He refuses to

discuss any of the details until the day of its execution, which is Friday, May 16th, 1986. Not even his two friends, Gerald Depp and Doyle Mendenhall, who he's roped into helping and investing in this plan. He doesn't even tell them what the plan actually is. They just believe in him. They think David is really smart. They're mesmerized by his rantings and his belief systems. David has somehow convinced them that he has come up with a new energy that will revolutionize humanity's existence. I'm sure he had that all well thought out and it was clear and concise. Yep. He's smoking with his red string. Yeah. So when

David tells them he's got a master plan and that he needs their help, Gerald and Doyle are all in both physically and financially. They want to help him do it and they want to help him pay for it. Great. Guys. Great. Guys. Have you ever heard of air hockey? It's down at the bar. It's really loud. It's really fun. Invest in that. Something. Invest your Bitcoin in air hockey. Okay. So two days before the takeover, Wednesday, May 14th, 1986, David and Doris drive from Tucson to Cokeville in separate cars, bringing the now 19-year-old princess, their daughter, along. They all meet up at a friend's house where they stay for the next two

days waiting for Gerald and Doyle to join them. On the day of the attack, Friday, May 16th, David, Doris, Gerald, Doyle and princess all pile into David's van and they drive to Cokeville Elementary School. Inside the van, David finally reveals the biggie, his full plan. They're going to enter the school armed with guns and David's makeshift bomb. They're going to hold all of the kids and teachers hostage and they're going to demand $2 million for each hostage, which will eventually amount to $308 million. But once the demands are met, David doesn't plan to run off with the money. He wants to detonate the bomb anyway. And that way,

the group and the hostages and the money will all be transported via reincarnation to the brave new world, an idealized white supremacist world where David will be God. So imagine someone's telling you this is the plan for the first time right outside the school. And then he's like, now look at the shopping cart. And then slowly back, back step, back step. They're just like, we should have known because of this van. So Gerald and Doyle, as delusional as they might be about how brilliant David is, they know this is not a good idea. So the guys say they refuse to participate. They just immediately are like, absolutely not.

David becomes enraged. He holds some captive inside the van at gunpoint. He wants to make sure they don't read him out. So he instructs Doris and Princess to handcuff Gerald and Doyle inside the van so they can't get away. So once they're restrained, David and Doris start unloading the guns and the bomb. But Princess starts sobbing and she's, she thought they were going to rob a bank, not take children hostage and not blow children up. So she stops helping. She basically just is like, not into it. She doesn't want to do it. David gets mad at his daughter, but he doesn't restrain her. Instead, he throws the keys to the van

at her and says, if you don't want to go with me, that's fine. You're no daughter of mine. And she was probably like, few. So then David and Doris are off into the school. So that's basically what was happening like five minutes before Tina at the secretary at the front desk was like, who are these two? Like that's what was going on outside. So the good news is that Princess takes the keys, speeds off to City Hall with Gerald and Doyle and reports her father and step mother for what they're about to do to the authorities. Good for her. She goes right there. Yeah. Imagine how horrifying that is where it's just like children.

Yeah, no. So back inside the school, all the hostages are gathered inside the classroom and around 1 30 p.m. David addresses the group and he says, this is a revolution and you're being held hostage, but we don't want to hurt you children. We will watch you. We don't want you to run. We don't want you to try and do anything. We want you to stay away from the cart, stay away from the guns. But if you do try to run, we will shoot you in the legs. We don't want to kill you, but we will shoot you in the legs so that you don't run. As far as you adults go, we'll shoot you and kill you. We don't care. We have no use for you

and we can kill you. Then he starts handing out copies of his manifesto zero equals infinity and tells everyone to read it. He also says that he sent a copy of it to the president of his alma mater, Chadron State College, to several media outlets and to president Ronald Reagan. David's hope is that he can get the word out to Reagan so that the federal government pays the ransom fee. But if not, he figures because Copeville, so this was the thinking of why he went back to Copeville, which I'm sure underneath it all was sour grapes from basically being like the sheriff for six months and then people going get

the hell out of here. He says he figures because it's a predominantly Mormon community and that the Mormon church has a lot of money. The Mormon church will step in if president Reagan doesn't pay the ransom, the Mormon church will. So of course, when this group of children hear this man say this, they start to panic. Many start sobbing. Many start saying they want to go home. People are already getting headaches because there's gas in these gallon milk containers. Some start throwing up because of the fumes. So David gives permission for the teachers to crack the windows to air out the fumes and

Doris tries to calm the kids by telling them that they need to think of this as an adventure movie. But that doesn't help because apparently she was kind of scary looking. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So then the teachers step in and they know that they have to, first of all, they have to keep these kids safe. They have to keep the kids calm and they have to keep the kids away from that fucking shopping cart in the middle of the room because if a kid walks by and bumps it accidentally, it could go off. So the teachers immediately, they make a big rectangle around the area that David's in in the center of the room and

they call that the magic box and they say, you can't go anywhere near the magic box and you certainly can't step inside the magic box. So we're all gonna, we're gonna line up around the, you know, the outside of the classroom and we're staying away from the magic box. They start doing a really good job of keeping the kids calm and distracting them because they're little kids, you know, reading them stories. One of the teachers tries to say, oh, wait, it's so and so's birthday. We didn't sing them happy birthday. But of course, that's the most nauseating idea. No one wants to sing happy birthday. No. No one's

gonna fall for that. Meanwhile, police and parents are gathering outside the school and they're trying to figure out how to diffuse the situation. But they know there's they can't make any sudden moves. There's nothing they can really do. They just basically have to sit there and wait to see what the demands are, like what the hell is going on. So here's what's funny. The one person that they missed in the school when they were rounding everybody up was the principal. So the principal must have been in his office with the door closed or something. So he basically comes out is looking around sees no one anywhere

and finds his entire school being held hostage in the first grade classroom. So when he opens the door, David basically says, okay, you go back, you go to your office, call President Reagan and the FBI and let them know this is a hostage situation. I want $2 million per hostage. And the principal's like, I will go do that right away. But of course, he runs and calls the local police, lets them know what's going on, what the demands are. He relates as much information about what's going on as he can. So meanwhile, David's growing angsty. They've been in this room for like an hour and a half. And suddenly the school bell rings

at three o'clock signaling the end of the day. So a bunch of the littler kids get excited because they think they get to leave. They think, oh, well, that's right. We all we get to leave. This is that's the official thing. So when David basically says they're not going anywhere, they all start crying again, like that part starts all over again, of course. Secretary Tina Cook watches as David is pacing around. He's wondering aloud when his money's going to get there. And she also notices that Doris is trying to tend to the children, trying to calm them down. And that's when she realizes that like David might be

the evil one, because she's she would later describe him as being like empty in the eyes. But that she that she was even more repelled by Doris because she was actually like trying to be nice to the kids, which she was just like, that's just so creepy. Totally. So one of the third grade teachers who is named Pat leans over to Tina and asks her, she thinks that this is if this is real or this is a hoax, like it's so strange, like what's going on. And Tina says to Pat, look into his eyes, you'll know this thing is very real. So then just before four o'clock, David decides he needs to go use the bathroom, which

is basically there's a door that's accessible inside this classroom. So he turns and he ties the bomb detonator to Doris's wrist to put her in charge while he's gone. As Tina later remembers it from the moment David goes into the bathroom, this is a quote, it just seemed like there was all of a sudden just a little bit of calm peacefulness. The kids got quieter. They seemed to calm down. There was just a feeling in the room like things had changed. It was almost like the evil walked out of the room. Before I'd been thinking, I'm never gonna get a chance to say goodbye to my husband and my children because I knew

we'd never walk out of that room. He told us we wouldn't and I believed him. And all of a sudden I almost had this feeling of hope. I don't know how to describe it beyond that. But soon that would disappear because just after four o'clock while David's still in the bathroom, Tina hears Doris say, it's getting too noisy in here. It's just getting too noisy. And then she complains about having a headache. She reaches her hand up to wipe the sweat from her forehead. And when she does, it's the hand with the wrist tied to the clothespin detonator. The wooden piece is pulled from between the two metal conductors and

the bomb goes off. No, I was. Yes. Oh my God, I was thinking someone was gonna stop her before. Oh my God. It explodes inside this classroom filled with children and teachers. And the boy in the I survived episode is just like all the sudden the room was on fire. Oh, my God. So these teachers who had been kind of like, you know, obviously watching everything communicating, they know that these two people have been like on the edge this entire time. Yeah. So they just start picking up kids and throwing them out the window because it's a first it's a one story classroom. Yeah. So it's, you know, four feet out. They just start

picking them up and throwing them out over and over. Some kids actually run because they know there's several doors to the hallways to like there's exits. And then there's also just the little kids are just going out the window like handfuls of them. And there's teachers just like standing there. There was smoke everywhere. There was fire. But these teachers basically almost like unspoken had this thing going and some grabbed a bunch of kids and like ran to and exit with them. It was total mayhem. I mean, a bomb went off inside the room. So David comes flying out of the bathroom at the sound

of the explosion. He finds Doris alive, but covered in black soot and severely burned. And he walks up pulls out a gun and shoots her in the head. Holy shit. Yeah. So he then turns and sees the teacher throwing the kids out the windows. And he he realizes everything's out of control and his whole plan is lost. And he just shoots a teacher, a man named John Miller, who was the music teacher. He just shoots him in the back. And John Miller, it slows him down. It does not kill him. And he keeps he keeps helping the kids. Oh my God. And then when David sees that he can't stop it and that everyone's

escaping and this whole thing is over. He brings the gun to his own head and shoots himself. So now with both perpetrators dead, the hostages can safely flee the burning building. So there's first responders on site already waiting to treat these injuries. There's triages set up in the surrounding areas. There's hospitals across Wyoming, Utah and Idaho waiting to take patients from the blast. But here's what's you won't believe. No, no, no, what? All 79 hostages, which were mostly children, are treated for severe burns and smoke inhalation. But every single one of them, including

John Miller, who was shot in the back survived. Oh, every single one of them survived. This is a stressful story. It's a stressful miracle. Oh my God. So it's it's like an impossible to imagine and think like that there wouldn't be. But it was because it was so it was a lot of reasons. First of all, obviously the magic box truly was magic and it held in all of that horror and that evil. But also, of course, David shotty handiwork building that bomb. So basically the milk jug that had the gasoline in it had a leak. So there was gas dripping down into those tuna cans, which instead of that powder

going off when the bomb went off, it was just a muddy paste at that point. So it was flammable, but it didn't make the ammunition or any of that other stuff explode like it was supposed to. Yeah. Also, the wires leading to the tuna cans blasting caps had been cut. They don't know who cut those wires. They don't know how that happened. It remains a mystery to this day. Wow. Oh, I mean, it had to be one of them, right? Or one of the dissenters that didn't want to go in with them. I mean, I like to think it was princess just because I love her name so much. And I love I love the turn she made.

But I think it would be I don't know if there was time for them to be able to dismantle that bomb or even make that move. Who knows. So along with the faulty bomb structure, the teachers who opened the windows for relief from the gas fumes unwittingly helped diminish the bombs effect because they created enough ventilation to reduce the power of that blast. In the days after the bombing, news coverage recounted the events with the appropriate horror, of course. But when when newscasters spoke to the survivors, they quickly turned the narrative on its head and told their stories as stories of hope,

faith and perseverance. Because so many residents of Cokeville were religious people. Many survivors preferred to look at things through the lens of their faith, thanking God for helping them live through what should have been a death sentence. Some remember seeing angels who helped guide them out of the burning classroom. Lots of kids. Okay, so really? There's a student survivor who is named Jenny. She was seven years old at the time of the bombing. And she'd later say, quote, many kids testified of their ancestors running with them, leading them out of the school or helping them

hide in a closet. Oh my God. And quote, she says, after the bomb went off, I thought one of the teachers at the school was helping me. I didn't recognize her, but she led me out by the hand and told me not to go back. And it wasn't until a few years later, when Jenny was in the fifth grade that she recognized this quote unquote teacher from a family photo album. It was her aunt who had died several years before the bombing. Oh my God, I'm going to cry. Yeah. Another boy recalls seeing a woman in white in the classroom who, quote, said the bomb was going to go off if I stood by the window, everything would be okay.

Oh, and then he would later identify this woman to be his late grandmother. Damn. School secretary Tina Cook, she later says, quote, I know the children say they saw angels. Do I believe it? Yes, I do. I didn't see any angels, but I felt the peace and the calm and I felt the difference in the room after David left. I felt the change, but it was nothing I could physically see or touch. There was just absolutely a difference. So with the help of local doctors, parents and their faith, Cokeville rebuilds the damages to its elementary school and the kids and the teachers return to normal. Kids who suffered

burns and other injuries show up to school in their bandages and many of them seek the help of therapists to cope with the trauma. But by banding together as a community, Cokeville elementary school story lives on as one of hope instead of one of tragedy. The story of the hostage takeover and the bombing is documented in a book entitled The Cokeville Miracle, When Angels Intervene, written by Hart and Judeen Wixom. There's also an unsolved mysteries and unexplained mysteries. And of course, a really good episode of I Survived with adults who were children in that classroom in 1986. And that is

the miraculous story of the Cokeville school bombing. Holy shit. How have I never fucking heard of that? Right, right. That is wild. It's beyond. It's so awful and so you absolutely have to look up that episode of I Survived because the people and there's employees, there's teachers and people that talk about it. And it's just the most for little kids, the most unbelievable firsthand experience, like what they went through and how they got through it. And it's just like, it's mind-blowing.

Wow, that is wild. Totally bonkers. Wow, good job. Thank you. Yeah. All right, so I'm not going to give you too much information about this story, but today I'm going to talk about the abduction of Cary Swenson, a world-class biathlete. My information from today's episode, heavily used sports illustrated article by Robert F. Jones, two cinemaholic articles written by Kriti Marotra, a Daily Beast article by Tarpley Hitt, a Los Angeles Times article by Anna DiPenga, a Bozeman Daily Chronicle article by Amanda Ricker, a

KBZT staff article and an AP article written by Marcia Dunn. So on July 15th, 1984, 23-year-old Cary Swenson is working a summer job as a waitress at the Lone Mountain Guest Ranch in Big Sky, which is in Southwest Montana. So obviously gorgeous. It's the gateway to Yellowstone, lots of nature. Big Sky is this beautiful outdoorsy place, tourists come to have these outdoorsy adventures and experiences like skiing, whitewater rafting, hiking, that kind of thing that people who are not like me go. Horse camp? I'm sure there's horse camp, ranches, ranches, horse camp, all the things. So getting off work

that day after lunch and being a seasoned biathlete, Cary uses her afternoon to go on a six-mile run on Jack Creek Road. I know, like you and I do. Sometimes after I work, I just like to go for a run. Six miles, like both ways? Or like three and three and three. Three and three, but it's like through the wilderness. So I'm sure there's a fucking incline. There's hills. You know there's hills. An element of incline. It's not flat. No. So it's, oh, it's a logging road. So Cary's boss, Bob Schapp, had seen a grizzly bear on that road the day before. But instead of deterring her, Cary, who I, right off

the bat, she's a total badass, she makes this adventurous decision to head in that direction because she's like, oh, I want to see a grizzly bear in person. Cary, why in person? You can see it on any National Geographic. They have their own channel now. It's a moving magazine. David Attenborough, I'm sure, has narrated one million documentaries. You don't need to see them in person. She's like, I run during my lunch break uphill and I'm a biathlete and I want to meet a grizzly bear in shake hands. And I want to live the revenant. And that's my prerogative. I'm 23. Guess what? I get

to lift. That's her girl bossing around Montana. That's the definition of a Montana girl boss is like, I will go and let the, let the grizzly bear know that I'm here. Yeah. High five a grizzly bear. Check it off my bucket list. Check. Great. All right. Let me tell you a little bit about our protagonist, Cary Swenson, born in 1961 in Pennsylvania. When she's nine years old, the Swenson family moves to Montana because her father, Bob, got a job at the Michigan State University in the physics department. Cary's mom, Jan works as a registered nurse and volunteer for the Nordic ski patrol, which takes part

in high country rescue missions. So her whole family is like smart and adventurous and badass. They just love to get out there. Yeah. They're not the TV couch people. No, I'm from. Yeah, neither couch, couch stock is you and I are from. We're couch people. You're mountain people. We're couch people. Couch stock almost made me spit Diet Coke on my own microphone couch. We're of great couch. We're of couch stock. After they moved to Montana, it takes up Nordic skiing and she's really good at it. Of course. She continues honing her skills throughout adolescence and right out of high school, she starts

training for a biathlon, which according to the Daily Beast article is quote kind of a winter race that combines cross country skiing and shooting targets with a small bore rifle. So skiing and shooting. Sure. You know, get out there. Yep. That's why she was fine with the grizzly bear. She's like, I'm bringing a rifle with me. I don't think so, man. I just wanted to fucking high five a grizzly because I'm sure it's like there's laws around it in that area of shooting bears, right? Whatever. Yeah, you just can't you just can't go pick them off because it's ruining your job. Right. And cause

it's like, oh, it's my lunch break. Okay. When Carrie's 19 year old, she's recruited for the first ever US women's biathlon program. And she joins it's a three person relay team. And four years later in 1984, Carrie and her teammates compete in the first ever women's biathlon world championship held in France. Carrie's team wins the bronze and Carrie herself places fifth in the individual race, breaking multiple records. Nice. According to sports illustrated quote, it was not just the best finish for an American that year, but the best finished ever for a US biathlete of either sex in 26 years of

international biathlon competition. Nice. She broke that the glass biathlon ceiling. That's right. So clearly, as I said, she's a total badass. Following these milestones, Carrie quote, emerged suddenly and dramatically as America's best female biathlete with promise of becoming a superstar in the grueling sports unquote. With our future promising, but that biathlon season over in in 1984 in July, Carrie takes a summer job as a waitress. And so we're back to her lunch break from said job. Yeah. All right. So she goes get some work that day decides going to run chase grizzly bear. And around 3pm, Carrie is

still running when she notices something off in the distance on the trail. She's on. And there's what she sees is two sleeping bags spread out on the trail, just odd as she approaches them. Suddenly two men walk out onto the trail in front of her. They're these unshaven like grizzly dudes wearing grimy quote wearing quote grimy smoke wreaking clothes like from bonfires and shit. And they're carrying rifles. The older of the men tells Carrie that they just want to talk to her, explaining that they don't get many women up in the mountains. And Carrie is afraid of what could happen if she tells them to fuck

off or whatever and runs the opposite direction. But she senses there's something not quite right about these men and she agrees to talk to them. But her instincts are right as after that the three talk for a bit. The men tell her that they're taking her captive as the younger man needs a mountain wife. Struggle ensues and the older man hits Carrie on the left side of her job very hard, grabs her by both wrists and throws her to the ground. Then the men overpower her and tire up all while threatening her with their guns and knives. All right, so who are these unshaven grimy mountain men? Let me tell

you. The older one is 53 year old Don Nichols and the younger one is his 18 year old son, Dan. Dan will later tell police that his father didn't quote believe in the system, society, civilization. So when Dan was seven, his dad took him to the mountains near Ennis and for around two months they lived there while Don taught his son how to live off the land. Dan said quote, dad taught me how to cope, how to hunt, stay alive in the winter, make things pleasant. Living in the mountains is a natural way of life in society. You go to work, get money and buy food in the mountains. You go get your food. You

don't go through the machine of society and quote mountain men. It's just so self-serving. Yeah. It's just so self-serving. The men in these stories are real dicks. It's not great examples. Hmm. Since then, the Nichols had spent a good part of the previous 12 summers living off the land of the Spanish peaks, wilderness, an area set off from the rest of the Madison Range area. Around five years before encountering Carrie, Don, the dad had purchased a chain and started looking for the perfect quote mountain wife. For years he dreamed of starting his own tribe in the mountains, but he knew that most women likely

wouldn't want to go along with his dream, at least not willingly. Investigators later theorized that prior to the kidnapping, Dan had grown bored of the mountain lifestyle. The son, he's like 18 at this point and wanted to leave it behind, but his dad didn't want a son to leave. So in hopes of getting his kid to stay, he decided to find that mountain wife for his son. So Don and Dan came up with a plan for kidnapping a woman. Okay, so after they take Carrie hostage, for the next 18 or so hours, the men lead Carrie through the woods deeper into the mountains. Carrie's tethered by a rope to Dan, while Don

walks behind them, keeping his rifle aimed at her back. According to Los Angeles time, Carrie, quote, risks her captor's rage by dropping items such as her wristwatch and headband to leave a trail for search parties. Smart. Uh-huh, this chick's fucking smart. And she deliberately presses the imprint of her running shoe into the soft dirt of gopher mounds and anthills to leave the trail. Wow, I know.

That's really smart. I know. At one point, the men stop for the night and Carrie is chained to a tree and put inside a sleeping bag. And the men discuss taking her even further into the Spanish peaks, which area they're very familiar with. And Carrie's right, of course, to assume that search parties will be looking for her. So that same evening, Carrie is supposed to go back to work after her break, I think, for the dinner shift. She doesn't show up. And so her boss, Shapp, the grizzly bear,

dude, he's worried that she was maybe attacked by that grizzly bear, right? Yes. Which is like so convenient because would he have worried as much? Had he not talked about that grizzly bear? No, it's kind of perfect that they even had that discussion. Yeah. Totally. He later tells Sports Illustrated, quote, I knew Carrie couldn't get lost in that country, not with her knowledge. And even if she'd fallen and

broken her leg, she was tough enough to crawl out. I mean, this was a woman who could take care of herself. So he knew something was off. He also knew that she was wearing shorts, a t-shirt and a windbreaker, which meant she was at risk for hypothermia due to the high elevation. So he contacts Carrie's parents and the county sheriff office, and then they all form a search party. Carrie's dad, Bob, borrows a friend's plane to search for his daughter from the air. And meanwhile, her mom, Jan, supervises a search party on the ground. Carrie's brother, Paul, goes out with the first group and they search until just

after dark. They have no idea that just over the ridgeline they're searching is Carrie. And actually, Carrie, they're kind of near her at that point, and she can hear them searching for her, which is so horrifying. But she doesn't call out for help because the Nichols had repeatedly threatened to shoot her if she called out to any searchers. And if anyone tried to save her, they said they'd shoot them too. So with no sign of Carrie by the search party, they spend the night hours coming up with a strategy to find her the next morning. They pour over topographical maps and create sectors for each party to focus.

In the morning, the search party is around 40 people. They head out and included our two friends of Carrie's, a man named Alan Goldstein, who's 36, and a man named Jim Schwalb, who's 30. The two of them head out together to a ridge near where shop had seen the bear, like falling in that direction. And they separate and they begin going downhill in separate areas through heavy timber. So just before 8 a.m. Schwalb comes across the Nichols camp. Oh, Carrie, who's still chained to a tree, sees him and yells, watch out, they've got guns. Don tells Dan to shut her up. And so Dan turns and points his gun at Carrie. And the trigger

goes off. He pulls the trigger at close range. The bullet enters at a downward angle two inches below the right side of her collarbone, strikes her long, and then exits her back 10 inches lower. Schwalb approaches the campsite and he later says that Dan looks like he wants to cry. He keeps repeating, I didn't mean to shoot her over and over again. Don tells his son to shut up and calm down and then points a rifle at Schwalb. That's when Schwalb sees his companion Allen Goldstein. He's still coming down the ridge and he's heading towards the camp. And Schwalb later recalls what happens when he said, quote, I yelled, I'll call for help,

go get some help. I had this walkie talkie with him and he said something over it. Then he pulled off his day pack and dove into with his hands. He came out with something I didn't even know he had brought along a gun. So Goldstein runs behind a tree around 20 feet away and at this point Schwalb is trying to treat Carrie's wounds. He had reached her from behind the tree. Goldstein tells the nickels to drop their weapons. Don raises his rifle and is able to shoot Goldstein in the face. Oh, I know. Schwalb runs over to his friend and finds him already dead. So he decides to run for help at this point. Seeing the situation obviously is intensified. He runs

a mile and a half. His muscles are aching. He finally reaches a trail and thankfully the sheriff and his search party are right in that spot. So for the next four hours, the search party tries to find the nickels camp again. But it's a slow process and they know that the nickels are armed and clearly fine with shooting. So they walk slowly with point men in the front, rifles ready to fire. They don't find the camp and so then they take Schwalb up in a helicopter. So I'm sure he's traumatized at this point. So two of his friends shot and they spot Goldstein's red day pack and authorities are able to pinpoint the area and swoop in. Meanwhile, back before this when Schwalb had taken off, the nickels had

realized that the jig is up and they'd been located. They need to get the fuck out of there. So they start packing their belongings. Carrie is still alive and she realizes what's happening and she asks the nickels who are clearly going to leave her behind to die if they could leave her a sleeping bag so she doesn't freeze to death. But instead they just dump her out of the sleeping bag she was in, untie her and fucking take off. Wow. So they leave her alive but Carrie is barely able to move due to her injuries and she knows it could be a long time before anyone finds her and she knows she'll either die from blood loss or hypothermia if she doesn't do something quickly. So she starts going into shock and she then removes a sleeping bag from the backpack that

Schwalb had left behind, crawls into it to stay warm and then attempts to eat a chocolate bar from the pack of his backpack for energy but she's too nauseous. So she just drinks from a canteen of lemonade to stay hydrated but she's losing too much blood and she knows that if she panics her heart will race faster leading to more blood loss. So she knows she has to put her biathlon training to work. According to Sports Illustrated quote, the most crucial point in a biathlon race is when the athlete makes the transition from cross-country skiing to shooting on the rifle range. So basically the skiing portion of the race cross-country makes your heart and lungs go super fast it's really really strenuous and then you have to jump right from

there into shooting a rifle you know I'm sure very accurately and so that requires a steady heart and the control of your breathing. So it's part of it is that it's these two extremes that biathletes train to control their pulse and breathing rates almost at will. Oh wow I know. Carrie maintains this quote yoga-like discipline for four hours as the search parties try to find her. When rescuers reach her she's still conscious calm and in control but her vision is blurring quickly. A helicopter transports her to a hospital 40 miles away where she undergoes surgery and spends days in the ICU. Eight days later she's released from the hospital. Oh you're setting me up. That's why I didn't want to give you that much information. Because I was just like there's just no way she's

done it perfectly like she's handled this so perfectly there's she wouldn't die at this point. That's why I didn't want to tell you it was a survivor story. I wanted to be like mind the survivor story too. No but you're right that's like getting shot in a lung. I mean like through her I feel like those are always fatal. I mean I don't who knows but but the idea like that you would have to be doing it's not just like a flesh wound. Right. I mean oh god. It impairs your breathing and you're panicking and it's like she fucking she was the Zen master. Yeah she was. So meanwhile multiple law enforcement agencies launch a manhunt to find these two men responsible for Carrie's abduction and attempted murder and the cold blooded murder of Alan Goldstein who's just 36 years old. After figuring

out the assailants names authorities work to learn everything they can about them and knowing that they frequent the Spanish peaks they search the area every day later after not finding them for a while the searches move to weekends only it seems like they it's such a huge area that it's like impossible to find just two people who know what they're doing in the wilderness you know. Right. Yeah but finally on December 13th 1984 five months after Carrie's kidnapping the nickels are caught basically this man named Roland Moore he is out riding on his property and he sees smoke rising off in the distance he's his binoculars sees that it's two men he obviously knows what's going on and knows about the manhunt he calls his brother who happens to be the Madison County Sheriff

Johnny France and knows the ranch like the back of his hand so he tracks the nickels for two hours and finally locates them around 90 miles from where Carrie was kidnapped. Good. I know. They really made like put some distance between them 90 miles. 90 miles yeah. Finally how great would it have been though if they got killed by the grizzly bear though. How satisfying. That came in and was like I will see. Yeah. Nope. But no instead Sheriff France is our grizzly bear and there's a little back and forth between the men but he's able to arrest them without incident they're charged with murder kidnapping and assault. So Don and Dan Nichols are tried separately in May 1985 Dan the son he's considered to be more of an accomplice and is convicted of kidnapping and misdemeanor

assault but the jury feels like he had been brainwashed by his father so he's not found guilty of murder. Yeah. He also claims that shooting Carrie was an accident that the gun had unexpectedly gone off but according to Carrie he had looked directly at in her eyes before shooting her. Well if anybody knows whether or not that was an accident it would be the person who got shot definitely and also there he's an experienced gun person. Yeah. So you don't act I feel like accidentally firing isn't something that happens you don't put your finger on a trigger if you don't plan on shooting someone. But also it's an interesting thing to think about where you're being raised by this by basically a doomsday prepper right who has moved you into the woods

slowly but surely over the years through your adolescence. Yeah. The one person in your life that's an adult that you're supposed to follow is essentially not all right in any way and is is crafting this world around you that you have to believe in. Right. Because he's all you have so it could have been that thing where like he thought yeah I get my wife and this is the right way. Yeah. That's how those things always work until it could have not been that it was an accident that it went off but that once he actually did it he went what in the fuck am I doing and what is this. Right. Right. I mean I don't know. Yeah. He definitely had had to have some brainwashing going on and it was not in his right mind. Yeah. So he sentenced to just 10 years in prison.

Then in September 1985 Don is convicted of kidnapping aggravated felony assault and deliberate homicide and he sentenced to 85 years. Yeah. Meanwhile Carrie remains a badass and thrives according to sports illustrated the bullet left nerve damage and some scar tissue quote raising concerns about her ability to resume her athletic career at least on the level she'd reached before the shooting. But within three months of the attack she's able to start training for the biathlon again. However on a limited basis three days after the arrest of her attackers Carrie competes at the US Biathlon Association's pre trial race in Big Sky Montana. I know she later recalls quote we didn't do that well but it was great to be back. Yeah. It's a miracle that

she's back. That's amazing. Three days after her attackers were caught which means five months after this ordeal. I know. We all need to be like Carrie. What would Carrie do? Get out of bed earlier and run six mile. Yeah. A few weeks after that happens she competes for the US National Biathlon Team and places third. Whoa. She was on the lung. She was on the lung. Now she's really like she's got I mean obviously before her focus is one thing but now it's like that idea she's coming up from under. She's been quote unquote sidelined and quote unquote traumatized and whatever but then her whole thing is like nope I'm going to go do the thing that I'm meant to do. You can't stop me. It is hard for her. She later describes the pain she

faces quote when I breathe deeply there's like a band of pain about four inches wide around my thorax and she can't ski for more than 45 minutes which is a lot shorter than she used to be able to do it for two hours nonstop. Nothing helps her pain but she keeps training anyway and for years to come Carrie undergoes biofeedback and physical therapy to help control the pain caused by the nerve damage to her back and chest. She has shrapnel in her chest and she wears a metal band around her front teeth to correct a jaw problem she suffered when Don first hit her. Good. I know and she often sees a psychologist to help with her PTSD. As the only way she can handle the trauma she endured is by pretending it didn't happen

and which we all know is a great way to have it come back and manifest in other ways. Yeah you can do that. You can only do that for so long and then you go deal with it. It totally works for a while and sometimes that's what you need but it's not the it's not a it's not a solution. Well and for someone like her that clearly has no problem facing humongous and threatening challenges. Yeah you know that's like yeah therapy. Yeah you can you can fucking you can stare down that mountain and then yeah hell yeah climb it and meet a grizzly bear on it. Yeah you can do all those things. This is Montana. You can do it all. Kidnapping. Okay in 1986 two years after her kidnapping Carrie competes at the World

Biathlon Championships in fucking Norway. She places fourth I know and then she announces her retirement. She has multiple reasons for retiring. One being that her injuries from the kidnapping of course still cause her a lot of pain but the other is that she's enrolled in Colorado State University Veterinary School and she's like moving on with my life. Carrie. She's like I don't I don't know if I'm going to be a world-class athlete anymore. I think I'm just gonna be a world-class veterinarian. I did it. I'm moving on. Now I'm going to tackle true grizzly bears. That's right throughout the trial the Nichols and after she is trying to get back to living her badass life but she has to deal with the media who according to the Daily Beast article has romanticized what

they call the quote Nichols boys as quote survivalists. So suddenly these fucking doomsday dudes are being put on this like like heroic pedestal. For example Esquire paints them as quote some rowdy mountain men trying to snag a wife. Oh and one media outlet victim blames Carrie by describing her as being quote a proper bell of bozeman which is the location the perfect flower of the new west as if the Nichols were trying to take her on a fun fucking romp through the wilderness but she was too prim and proper to appreciate it basically. Wow. So like they're totally romanticizing these kidnappers and murderers. These grimy weirdos that were like couldn't handle regular life right and so they were like we have to be in the woods and you have to be here

with us where it's like hey look if you have to be in the woods and you do need to issue society because that's your American right. Yeah. But you don't get to take other people with you and you're not you're not somehow cool because of it. Yeah. You shit in the hole and then cover it up and like you're not special and many locals of the area agree with the media and they feel like the Nichols are some of the last men out there truly living free away from the controlling government some locals even lined up at the trials I know to get autographs from the quote mountain men. Well you know what that's that's just like women falling in love with Richard Ramirez. There are people that take they take their what is what's the phrase everybody loves

to use these days parasocial they're parasocial relationships that they're projecting onto these people like yeah that's a real man it's like it's just not yeah it's just not yeah and it's just I mean yeah to have to read about for Carrie to have to read about this and the media is like trying to track her down the family and her are like absolutely not interested. Well and also sorry but if the media actually wanted to romanticize or blow up any buddy in that story aside from Carrie how about the two dudes that ran into that camp yeah and like and one lost his life for the bravery and the strength of going in and trying to help and be there like that's it's they're right there yeah like they're right there in the story that you could you could focus on and instead

it's the actual murderers I know insane it's them and her who fought for her fucking life like they deserve all the accolades in 1989 Carrie's mother publishes a book called victims the Carrie Swenson story according to Los Angeles Times quote the book which was dedicated to Alan Goldstein was written because Carrie and her family are haunted by more than the memory of her ordeal they feel that Carrie was the victim not only of a crime but of a bizarre myth making process that turned the criminals into folk heroes sorry what and that happened in what year 1984 is when the kidnapping happened and then the media like the resulting media was basically mid 80s I mean that makes perfect right that is like yes that's like the most unanalyzed uh uh like dudes in charge

era like before anyone even thought about it they I bet you there wasn't one woman in that newsroom to go excuse me what are you doing you're calling her a damsel in distress or whatever it's like no no no not at all in 1991 Dan Nichols the son is paroled after serving only six years of a sentence and then in 2017 Don now 86 years old is uh and having been up for parole four times is released having served less than half of his sentence Carrie later writes an op-ed for the Montana pioneer that reads in part quote we the victims have a life sentence not Don Nichols they invoked a death sentence on Alan Goldstein that is the ultimate sentence the life sentence for me is that every day of my life I have to deal with the death of a friend the memories and horrors of being kidnapped

being chained up like an animal being shot in the chest and then left to die that day I lost my freedom and my athletic career they took away my rights to live freely without fear victims of violent crimes are victimized over and over again by the justice system and the media despite her struggles traumas and injuries Carrie followed her dream of becoming a veterinarian today she continues to work in the field focusing on small animal medicine in her spare time she spends time in the outdoors with her family friends dogs and horses and in fact Karen in 1986 Alan Goldstein and Jim Schwalbe were honored by the Carnegie Hero Fund which recognizes persons who perform extraordinary acts of heroism in civilian life wow yeah so that's good outdoors dogs and horses

she's still involved in biathlon by coaching and mentoring young athletes and in 2015 Carrie and her 1984 biathlon teammates were inducted into the U.S. Biathlon Hall of Fame whoa and that is the story of the kidnapping of the badass Carrie Swenson wow had you ever heard that I didn't hear that until I was doing research on more stories it sounded familiar but there are several yeah I survived episodes with people and a lot a lot of times in the Appalachian Mountains with people coming upon a grimy weird guy that's clearly been out there for way too long and having horrible experiences so I couldn't figure out I was like do I know this or not and I don't think I did I don't know if there was an I survived I don't want to know because

then I'm like oh fuck I should have watched that no no no I think it just reminded me of other ones I've seen where like a woman but is taken by a single guy the fact that it was a father son I feel like I would have remembered yeah because that's just so twisted and weird and like such a bummer yeah yeah I mean Jesus she wow she's a fucking badass yeah she is that was amazing totally great story thank you and a survivor story yeah great oh we have an announcement oh yeah so this week well I think we talked about this a little bit last week but there's so much going on in the world there's so much uh that's stressful and scary but one of the things they think that's really upsetting lately are these laws being passed against transgender youth

against transgender treatment against transgender like family seeking care for their transgender children and it's really upsetting and it's really odd it just doesn't really make a ton of sense why it's just a really extreme yeah scary thing that people need to really start paying attention to and I've read a bunch of stuff about it and one of the things someone someone sent me an article on twitter and it's basically saying this is how the nazis started right the nazis started basically attack and discriminate and pass laws against people that everybody else quote on quote would think well that's fine with for them right that's that kind of othering thing where it's not a big deal if it's happening to them because that's not my life and that's not my family it doesn't

affect me and so and I'm also scared of this you know this other anyways so I'm not gonna pay attention to it or I feel the need because I think that I'm a faith-based person that I'm going to judge these other people or that I somehow have the right to to to make up stories about people I don't even know right and the truth of it is that whether or not someone is trans is that person's business it's that person's life and nobody outside of that person can tell them or can judge anything about them it's a ridiculous idea to sit outside and pretend that you can decide how another person should live their life that way and this is it's one thing to talk about it you know at work or when you're at a bar and be a bigot but the idea that there are passing laws in Texas and Idaho

in all these places that are really extremist they're really like crazy right wing and they're really dangerous it's inhumane it's fucking inhumane the way they want to treat people that aren't like them it's also based in ignorance there's just so much ignorance around it that they're trying to their the story that's being told is one based in ignorance so all that is to say we're gonna donate ten thousand dollars to the national center for transgender equality this is an organization that advocates to change policies and society to increase understanding and acceptance of transgender people so in the nation's capital and throughout the country and cte works to replace disrespect discrimination and violence with empathy opportunity and justice

and this is a very big organization and so they actually asked us if there was anything specifically that we wanted our money to be put toward and we said fighting these transgender laws that seem to be popping up and being passed you know like with nobody knowing about them so if you want to donate to the national center for transgender equality look them up at trans equality org yeah trans rights are human rights as as we always have said as you well know but it feels like other people need to start learning too because it's so extreme yeah it's just really insanity it's not the world we want to live in and i'm horrified that the country we live in is fucking making these decisions that have so many huge consequences for so many families and so many people and we're horrified

by it so um yeah give two if you can and you know just fight the good fight and keep that love in your heart that's right we appreciate you guys listening thank you so much don't forget to buy your brock's taco truck jelly beans this is not a paid advertisement no this is sincere a sincere endorsement of taco truck uh jelly beans yeah jelly beans they are jelly beans oh also stay sexy and don't get murdered goodbye elvis do you want a cookie this has been an exactly right production our senior producer is hannah kyle prighton our producer is alahandra keck this episode was engineered and mixed by steven ray morris a researchers are j alias and hailey gray email your hometowns and fucking hurray is to my favorite

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