My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 321 - Tenfold More Murder: Part 1

Episode Date: April 7, 2022

On today's episode, Kate Winkler Dawson tells Georgia and Karen the story of serial killer John Reginald Christie.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder. That's George Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff, and I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, and this is Tenfold More Wicked. The crossover of a lifetime. Love it. So excited. Hey, we're so happy to have you here. You are such a talented pro, and it's exciting to have you on this not so pro show of ours. And it's a crossover and also it's an intern network crossover, first of its kind. Amazing. So, Kate, get ready. I just,

I joined this network specifically for this moment to do this crossover. Nice. Said that was it. I'll do this for three years as long as within that three years I can do a crossover. As long as you create and start a crossover series and I can do it. It worked because I'm here. Kate believes in the secret and she's here to talk to you about manifesting your dreams. I'm excited to be here. Thank you for asking me. We're thrilled to have you. I mean, we're, you know, we, I think we've talked to you about this a lot of how impressed we are that you are a real full-fledged historical true crime writer. And you've had tons of books, amazing books that you've written. And you have a new book coming out. Do you want to tell us about that a little bit before we go into the story?

Sure. So, if you've listened to Temple of More Wicked, the very first season was about a man named Edward Ruloff. And he was a psychopath who it killed several people very close to him. And at the same time he was this genius. And so in the podcast you hear all about him and how he almost got out of being hanged several times and how pivotal this case was. There's a moment though in that show where he shackled like Hannibal Lecter to the floor of a prison. And there's a series of men who come in from all different disciplines to basically figure out why he was the way he was, why he was this horrible criminal, but also brilliant at the same time. And so the book is not a rehashing of the season because people have heard the season. It is really a deep

dive into the criminal mind and those moments where he manipulated everybody. And what that means today. This was a hundred years before the FBI did the same thing with Ted Bundy and Edmund Kemper and all of these really famous people with psychopathy. So yeah, that comes out in October and there's pre-sales available now and the audiobook also. So it's very exciting. I, you know, Edward Ruloff, I've just, it's been a long journey with him. He was a book idea first and then a podcast and now a book. And I feel like he, I'm going to be tethered to this man for the rest of my life. It would be funny when you Google his name. Now your name will always pop up. For better or for worse. Correct. Yes. The book's called All That Is Wicked. And so please pre-order

that means so much to us writers. It's a big deal. To book sales. Yeah. All That Is Wicked, a gilded age story of murder and the race to decode the criminal mind. I mean, let's give that title its full weight. That is my edit, Michelle Howrie at Penguin Random House is all her, I am so bad at titles. It is unreal. It is unreal. Do you have that subtitle memorized because that's quite, no. And I don't, for any of my books, that's my third book. And I don't remember, and I don't work, people have to tell me where the commas go. For somebody who's been a journalist for as long as I have, I'm a terrible copy editor. I really am. Thank goodness for auto correct. I feel like that's such an important thing to tell like people because you're always like,

I can't write a book. I don't know like personally as well. I don't know where commas go and I don't know a fucking Roman numerals very well. It's like, but you can still write a book. That's not your part of the job. Roman numerals. I don't know. Have you ever had to write Roman numerals? No. That's like a junior high trauma. That's your, that's your fear based mind serving up anything that you will buy. That's like, sorry, if you, if you can't do a Roman numeral list. If you can't count from 100 backwards in Roman fucking numerals standing on your head, then you don't deserve to write a book. Then you better quit that you're a fraud. I tell you, I type so much that my handwriting is horrific. My hand, my hand cramps up after

about one minute of writing by hand and I can't remember how to do cursive. My 12 year old girls can write cursive better than I have. I feel like I'm recessing. It's really horrible. I mean, add it to those things of things you won't need when you're older, you know what I mean? Like handwriting. Handwriting. That's as old as Edward Ruloff himself. It's that historical and ancient. I'm trying to get my way out of typing too. Now I'm just going to do all speech recognition and that's it. All I have to do is just lay there in my bed and just speak into the microphone and that's it. There's nothing else. Yes, you're with your hands. At the dog and that's it. That's the goal. What if a dog learns how to type and can take dictation? She's that smart. Then you've got a

series of TikTok videos you can post and we're talking about content. We're talking about producing content in every possible way. Kate Winkler-Dawson. If you can get somebody on your team to train me to do that, I will absolutely do it. My kids know TikTok. I don't understand it one tiny little bit. I just know I have to watch really silly videos every night at bedtime just to get them, just to have a talking point with them sometimes. Absolutely. You're in a safe place because none of us right here in this little circle. You don't take her talking? No. Okay. We're in the same boat. I get sent some videos by my niece. My thing is the video itself is always entertaining, but then it will immediately autoplay the next video, which nine times out of 10 is a late teens,

early 20s girl crying into her own camera. It's so upsetting to me that I'm always scrambling to get out of the app where I'm just like, please, I just wanted to watch a duck follow a dog around or whatever the original video is. A duck? Well, which one's that? Send me a link to that one. Have you seen the monkey trying to give the duck a bath? That one is classic. Classic. Yep. Interspecies friends. I can't. I don't think I could do a TikTok video. I don't. I'm sticking with podcasting. That's about the end of my creativity is with podcasting. I mean, I think you're covering so much already. Like you write books, the idea that you do anything else. Like you also are a professor. The idea that you might feel pressure to do literally

anything else is kind of funny to me because I, it's less than hilarious for me because I do feel pressure. I do for a pleasure. And I think part of it is when you have so many ideas in your head, the big key I told my students is when they say, I don't know what I want to do or what genre I want to be in. And I found true crime just because it was, I would take a break from doing other things and watch true crime. And finally a friend said, why don't you just do this sort of for a living? Yeah. And so it doesn't feel like work to me. The unfortunate thing for me is I have so many ideas. I have a little folder that is ideas that it's hard really to keep track of. And I have so many listeners who send me this amazing, all these amazing suggestions for 10 fold that,

you know, I just have this database, I'm never going to be able to get through of stuff. So it's an embarrassment of riches is what I would say, which is wonderful. But it also is maddening because I just want to do everything. So. And kind of know every story. I always have that feeling when people send a suggestion or George and I say that to each other all the time. It's like, I've never heard of this. Like, how is this possible? Where it's like, right? Because there's a whole bunch of these stories. There's a time. Yeah. There's, it's never ending. And especially where the, the, in the realm I work in, I have a friend who runs an audio house for our university and he and I were talking about true crime and he really prefers things. He wants to cover things

from the 1980s up. And I am 1960s back. The further back, the better. I mean, I have a 10 fold season that that is from 1766 that I'm trying to keep up with. So the older, the better. And so, you know, I just, I think it's because I just don't want to, I don't like dealing with life people. I prefer dead people. And it's easier also for these, for my stories, because they are pretty old and we're talking about a hundred, many of them are a hundred years or even older, where I get family members who are wonderful, but they aren't so involved that it's just gut-wrenching and painful. I just, I stay away from those usually. I have families who understand the story because it's been a really big part of their lives and they can feel the reverberations

of what happens, but contemporary stories are too difficult for me. They are for braver people than me for sure. Yeah, it's very raw when it's, I mean, even in the, even in a couple generations close, like even if you hadn't met the people it happened to, but you know, your parent did, it's like, it's so, it's so raw. There is a thing when Karen and I are about to do a story that's like from, you know, there's no way that there's recent generations who, who experienced the trauma and knew the people involved. It's just kind of like, okay, we can like relax a little bit because we're not going to directly, you know, stir anyone's emotional pot with this story because it's so old. Yeah. I mean, my buddy said when they did a story that the family of the victims were

on top of it, listening to every single episode and giving them feedback. And I was just saying, oh my gosh, that would be a nightmare for me. I just, I don't think I, it would be really difficult for me to do. So I give a lot of props for people who can do it, but I just old, old, long dead people who have been really, really impacted, you know, and, and, but I get so much emotion out of the families that, that I do have because I do believe in trauma embedded in your DNA. And I believe that things that happened in the past in a lot of families just sort of, you know, continue on and on and on through the generations. It's nice to have some answers and some clarity on some stories. So especially since it was only recently, and I mean, like maybe even

beginning in the like late eighties, nineties, where people have started talking about things and talking about our families, not perfect, like that fever, cleaver kind of specter that's been hanging over so many families for so long, at least American families, where it's like, you're supposed to be perfect. And if you're not shut your mouth, that the idea that that's finally fading away. And people can say, Hey, I had this fucked up thing happen. And almost everyone else can go, yes, so did we. It was just a different version. But like every, everyone has experienced familial trauma and, you know, hardship in some way. Like it's all very relatable. There's just certain ones that are really extreme. And I find what's interesting

is with a lot of my stories is when I'll contact family members, you know, I'll go through ancestry or I'll track them. I've gotten pretty good at tracking people down. I talked to this woman one time I emailed her and said, Hey, I need to talk to you about your great uncle, great, great uncle. And she said, Yeah, let's talk. And I called her and I said, So this is what he did. And she said, That is not what I thought you were talking to me about. She had never heard of the case. She, it just, it was, it was not ever talked about. There is a generation and it stops. The story disappears and nobody knows anything about it for season two of 10 fold. That was true with the Burke and Hare story. Burke's relatives, the University of Scotland were

able to to track them down. And Burke's relatives, one of the killer's relatives said, We knew his niece. And that was it. We had no idea who this guy was. So they really, really would stop any kind of discussion about the story. And so, you know, people have this in their background and sometimes knowing more about it clarifies things. Fascinating. Well, it is true, probably a lot of generations blamed the family members of the killer or, you know what I mean, where it's like you, you're shunned because you have this imperfect person in your family and this murderer and psychopath and it's like somehow, you know, everyone wants to pretend that they don't have

issues in their families as well. That maybe aren't as extreme, but then the whole family shunned, you know, and so the great way to forget about it or not let that happen is to pretend that it's doesn't exist. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think it gets buried and that's that's sad. It's understandable, but it's also really sad, especially because a lot of the cases I deal with were very impactful in their time period. They taught us something, it's things that we can relate to now and to have those things buried and not want to talk about them is understandable on one end. But I also love when I get ahold of family members who say, I've been wanting to talk about this because I see this happening now in our family, you know, for better or for worse. And, you know,

a lot of it is I end with, on tenfold I end with, you know, where has this story fit into the tapestry of your family? Where does it, where do you see yourself in this story? And a lot of them say it's perseverance that our family has survived a lot of stuff. It's not just been this, it's been other things. And that's nice to be reminded of sometimes. So I've been grateful for every family I've talked to. It's been wonderful. Yeah, that's amazing. That's an amazing source and a kind of a grounding source for the story itself where it's like, this is real. These are real people. This really happened. This isn't some, isn't a story from the past. So what is your, what would you say your first true crime like experience that made you realize that you were

very interested in this as opposed to something else? You know, I was a broadcast journalist for a very, very long time and I worked for CBS to be CBS in New York and I worked for ABC News Radio and then I moved to San Francisco and I was assigned a story to go live from a place called Modesto, California, which is Central California. And there was a representative, U.S. representative there named Gary Condit. I don't know if you know this, this name rings a bell. Maybe you guys have talked about it with Chandra Levy. And I covered that story and that was a really, really difficult story. Of course we know that, that he was, it sounds like having an affair with her and he would, he was digging in and would not admit to it. He was married. He was a really

big name in Central California. He was sort of a well-known congressman who had been in office for a very long time. And he just wouldn't talk to the police and just simply said, I don't acknowledge anything except she was an intern in my office. And she went missing and later on it was discovered after his career was totally ruined. It was discovered that she had been killed by a serial killer who had buried her in the park where she had gone jogging. So, you know, a side note to that is me thinking in my head, obviously it, it would be better for you to admit this affair and give this woman's family some closure so they can move on and try to, to find her. But, but police were just so derailed by, by him. He just seemed like such a likely

suspect. So I was covering that case in California and that's, I think that was really interesting to me. I saw the good and the bad, I think of what happens with, with crime reporting and with true crime, which is the good was I got to know her family, Chandra Levy's family, and I got to really understand their pain and the links that they were going. They were not, nobody wants to talk about a missing child and they were accepting so many different interviews and they were allowing satellite trucks to park out front. We were parked out front and to go inside and, and, and so I think that that was great. But the, the negative side is, you know, we had, I worked for a 24-hour news network and, and we were just reporting it 24 hours. I mean, we were there at six in the morning

on a Saturday where nothing was happening and it was this insatiable need, this machine that needed to be fed and that's what made it difficult for me. And of course there, this fell into what we now call the missing white woman syndrome, which was this, you know, beautiful young woman who's missing and supposedly somebody who is not, not a typical victim and how outside the norm is this. And, and now we know how misguided that can be. But it was that, I think that story really, I was there for a couple months and I put on about 20 pounds because I was at the double tree and they have those cookies that, do you know, have you been at that? Yes. I mean, I'm not, I'm not angling for an advertisement for double tree, but I would be happy to do it because those chocolate chip

cookies were the bomb. And I definitely put on some big time weight thanks to that. Yes. They're very dangerous. So I was, that, I was impacted multiple ways by living in Modesto, California for a couple of years. So that really was the beginning for me. And I, my mom has been a true crime fanatic for my entire life as long as I can remember. And my father was a criminal law professor at the University of Texas. And so it was just sort of this natural thing for me to always be interested in. I just like a good story. And true crime for me has this natural story arc where you, it makes sure people are invested from the beginning of who the victim is, why does this story really matter? Because everybody matters. And, you know, and then there is the inevitable

trial, hopefully if the person's caught. And then somebody changes by the end of the story. There is some sort of a shift in someone's life by the end of the story. And that's a good story. And I think that's what makes true crime appealing to a lot of people like sports. I love sports films too. So it's the same sort of thing. There's a, there's something that happens. There's an event that changes people. And to me, that's a definition of a good story. Looking for a better cooking routine with meal planning, shopping and prepping handled. Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal and delicious. Stay cozy all winter

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on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hi. Hey, I'm Arisha. And I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva Whitney Houston. Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva, we'll tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path. Follow

Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Wait, so now Kate, you have a story to tell us today. I do. And it's long and in-depth. So get ready. I expect very natural organic gasps from you. Great. I love it. We're doing it. We knew when we've done it in the past. We knew the stories. And this time we don't know what you're ringing. I said, don't know. We're so excited. You don't know either. I'm going to make it up. I said, I told your producer, I told the producer, don't tell them. Please tell them not to Google. I don't want you to Google anything. Yeah, perfect. And the midpoint of this, I'm going to take an unscientific poll with just the two of you and to see what you think. And then we'll see if you

were right or wrong or whatever at the end. Okay, we're playing Clue. I love it. Yes, I love it. So this is a story that comes from my first book, which was called Death in the Air. And Death in the Air was set in London in 1952. And I won't get too much into it because I don't want to spoil anything. But the book is, you know, essentially about the great smog of 1952 in London, where all of this pollution settled over the city and killed about 12,000 people. Amazing. And what the city was more concerned about was a killer and who was on the loose. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. So here's the story. We'll start kind of from the beginning. It's the story of Timothy Evans. And Timothy Evans has always been, as a case, has been held up as a pretty profound

example of a wrongful conviction. So I was involved with wrongful convictions because of my dad's clinic. I told you my dad was a law professor at the University of Texas for about 37 years before he died. And I moved down here right at the end of his death. And I had always intended to move from New York back down to Austin, Texas. And before my dad died, he said, I would like you to get involved with the clinic. And he started an actual innocence clinic where they investigate wrongful convictions. So my dad was really into, you know, debunking junk science and false confession. So I've, I learned my whole life. I've just heard all about this stuff. What was his name? Robert Dawson. His nickname was Mad Dog, which he was.

Mad Dog Dawson. I don't know. I always made fun of him. I said, that's, you were not a Mad Dog, but, but he was, he was, he was pretty good in court. So when I've talked about wrongful conviction, my whole life, I've heard about the Timothy Evans case, which took place in London. So here's the story. And then we could see where you guys land midway through. So it is 1948, post war London. The city's been blitzed and they're in a post war rebuild because the city's been destroyed. The British government, which is at this point led by Winston Churchill, who was a conservative is bankrupt, but they're not telling anybody else, which is where the pollution part of my book comes in because they are buying dirty coal and distributing dirty brown nasty coal

to the rest of people in London. And that's what's causing all of this pollution. So London overall is pretty depressed. There are a lot of people who are unemployed. Of course, many people were killed. There are women who have to turn to part time sex work because their husbands or their boyfriends, the fathers of the children have been killed. There are men who have returned with their service revolvers. There's a lot of domestic violence, a lot of misery. And of course, this isn't the case in every part of the city, but in a place that is now beautiful, Notting Hill, Notting Hill was not a very pleasant place to be in the 1940s and late 1940s and 1950s. It was an area where the houses were poorly built. Generally, they were old

Victorian houses that were then turned into multiple, multiple flats. And rooms that used to be pretty lavish were split down the middle and they shoved as many people as they could into these rooms. So in Notting Hill in 1948 came a Welshman named Timothy Evans. He was 24. And he had just about a year and a half to two years before met a young woman named Burl. And Burl was 19 years old. And they met and they fell in love very quickly. And they got married very quickly and she got pregnant. And in 1948, they moved into an old Victorian house, which was right next to this huge coal fired power plant. So you have to picture this. They're also really close to a tube station. So there's like soot and dust coming through from the coal

plant. And there's the rumble of the train, which was an above ground train right next to their flat. This is not everything's rattling. And these are not well built buildings to begin with. So everything's shaking. And it's just it's not aesthetically pleasing. And they're a young couple. So he's a lorry driver, which would be truck driver in the US. He's a lorry driver. And he's always just Tim Evans has always just had a struggle keeping a job. He drank a lot. He didn't serve in the war, but he did drink a lot. And he and Burl fought a lot, a lot, a lot. They had some pretty violent fights. And when Geraldine, the little girl was born, he seemed to be a pretty good father. And within about six months or so, they're still living there. But there's accusations

of infidelity. And she gets pregnant. And she is not happy about this. And he's not particularly happy either. But he is Catholic. And she wants to have an abortion. And he says no. And it has been a real problem between the two of them. So the couple down on the ground floor heard so many of their fights and Burl would try to go get a job. And they would volunteer to keep the little girl. So people were trying to do their best to help out. So there is a time in 1948, where Timothy Evans decides to go home to Wales and he visits its family. And he hangs out with his family and everything seems okay. And then he ends up going to a police station in Wales where he's from in Cardiff. And he says, I killed my wife and my daughter there in Notting Hill. And that's it.

He gives no explanation, nothing. So the police in Wales don't know what to do with this. They call the Metropolitan Police at their Notting Hill division. And they say, you guys need to send some officers over to 10 Wellington Place, which has later become a very, very well known address. And Timothy Evans, they press him, of course, and they say, where is she? And where is the little girl? And he said, I took off one of those plates down the sewer hole right in the middle of the street right in front of my building. I pried open the plate. I dumped their bodies down into the sewer. You'll find them there. So the police scurry over there. It takes three or four men, strong Metropolitan Police officers to try to get this lit up. And they're having a hard time

getting the lit up. It's sort of adhered down, probably rust and all kinds of stuff. So immediately the police are thinking, can one guy who's not really big actually do this? Could he actually lift the lid by himself carrying bodies in the middle of the night? And of course, he's not giving much of an explanation anyway. So they finally get it open. They look down, nothing. There's no one there. Nothing's, you know, nobody's nothing. So they go back to him and they say, what happened? And he said, I've changed my mind. I did not do anything actually. I did nothing. I don't know where they are. I did nothing. So there are a lot of searches. There are searches, you know, in his flat, they search more down in the sewer. They go into the back garden. And the

back garden is a mess. Of course, no indoor plumbing for bathrooms. The tenants in this building, it was three floors. There's a middle floor and then the Evans lived in the top floor. And these three floors all shared one washroom, one laboratory, one bathroom. So there's two little buildings in the back. And then a garden that is just wrecked, just stuff everywhere. People have trashed it. Neighbors probably have dumped stuff in it. So they go and they search the house, the flat, everywhere. They sort of search the garden. And they don't look in the wash house. Inexplicably, I have no idea why they decided not to do that, but they didn't. And they go back and report to the police in Wales. They say, hold him, but we can't find any bodies.

So a day or two goes by and the Notting Hill police get frustrated because they still feel like something's happening. Her mom's worried. Everybody's worried about Burl and Geraldine. So they say, go back again one more time. And they figure out that there was a miscommunication and that somebody should have searched. So we see where this is going. Somebody should have gone to the wash house and they didn't. So they walk in and they find their bodies and they're sort of wrapped up like mummified. And they had been there, it looks like for quite a while, for a week or two. She had been missing for a little while. And he spent probably about a week in Wales before he went to the police. So they are wrapped up. They're well preserved, both of them, because

it's very, very cold. It's late in the winter and it's very dry. And they've been wrapped up in kind of clothing and stuff. They could tell that they had both been strangled with a necktie. Okay. There was no sexual assault kit done because they were married and there was no need for that. It wouldn't prove anything if there were sperm there anyway from their point of view. And they arrest him and they drag him back from Wales to London. And he is denying it along the way. He's accusing everybody under the sun and he says, I didn't do it. I love them and they start to put him on trial and they start gathering character witnesses and witnesses who have seen things. There's a girlfriend that he's been sleeping with. And there are people who on

the street saw he and Burl fighting. And she was fighting with him too. Up in the window, you could see a clear view from the street. She was walloping him. He was hitting her. And this was a frequent occurrence. So the downstairs neighbor who was a war reserve police officer, which is a really nice appointment during the war. His job was to go kind of in and out of homes and check and warn people and take him to shelters and check and see if anybody died during the Blitz. He was a character witness because he was down on the bottom floor. He could hear, he and his wife could hear everything. And they babysat for Geraldine. So it made sense that he was this character witness too. His family came in and tried to sort of defend him and say that,

you know, our son would never do this, that he loved his daughter. He loved his wife and they had problems and he drank a lot. But, you know, this, this is something that he would never do. Nobody believes him and he is convicted and he is sentenced to hang and he, you know, swings from the gallows. So this is having a 1949. There's almost no press around this. It's what they called a fish and chips murder, which is funny. If you've been to London and you go to the street, you know, any of the street fairs and stuff, you can get some fish and chips wrapped in newspaper. And it was a real basic domestic violence. And domestic violence was really, really prevalent as was in that time period. And now women who are pregnant who are murdered,

I was just reading this just for this episode that I can't remember the statistic, but I think it's something like women who are pregnant are twice as more likely to be murdered as women of the same age who aren't. And there's a variety of reasons for that. But we know that women who are pregnant or have just had given birth are at a much higher risk for mostly domestic violence. It's like, it's like one of the top two or three reasons that women who are pregnant die. So this is, you know, they had a really big argument, a constant argument over her getting an abortion. She didn't want another child and he was Catholic. He said no. So it was, it was a lot, there was a lot of evidence against him and he was hanged. So, you know, life kind of goes back to normal to the

people at, at 10 Rollington Place. But I want to go back a little bit because this is where the story takes a little bit of a turn. You know, the police mungled this investigation at the very beginning. They were supposed to search the wash house pretty immediately and they didn't. There was a delay and blah, blah, blah. So when they finally get it together and they go to the wash house and they open up the door and they see Burl and Geraldine and they pick them up and they walk their bodies out. They open up this gate and this gate is terrible. It's, everything's falling down. It's a horrible garden, as I said before. And the police, when they open the gate, they don't notice that there's this weird stick holding up the gate. And upon further examination years later,

they find out that that stick was actually a thigh bone. Oh. Whoa. Adelaide field. And Tim Evans wasn't the one who put it there. Okay. He did not know and Burl did not know and nobody knew that they were living with a serial killer who had already killed two women and buried them in the backyard. It was that neighbor down below on the first floor. He was a man named John Reginald Christie. The army police guy? Yep. War reserve police officer who testified against, who testified against him. He was the main character witness. And I'll, and then I'll tell you something because I was kind of mean and held something back. Timothy Evans, sorry, I do that a lot. So Timothy Evans said, I think John Christie did it. He was my neighbor on the bottom floor. I think

he did it. I think he did it. And everybody just thought that was ridiculous because John Christie was this, you know, a war reserve police officer and he had never really been in trouble that anyone knew. He was married. They didn't have any children. And Christie just said, this guy's terrible. He beats his wife and it made sense. It all made sense. Yeah. Right. So John Christie, of course, has this incredible secret, which is that there are two women buried in his backyard when they are carrying Geraldine and Burrell Evans out of the wash house. And that leg bone belonged to Meryl Edie. And I'll tell you the stories in a little bit, but we should go back because here is the unscientific poll with just the two of you. Okay. Do we think just at this

point from what you know, do we think that it's possible that a serial killer could be living in the house and not be the one responsible for killing this man's wife and child after he recanted, knowing just what you know so far. You mean to say, could a murder, an active murder also be there when a murder takes place? And he's not responsible. Two killers at the same time. And they're not working together. Two separate murders living in a small three floor building and nodding hill. I think at this time and place when it seems like domestic violence is, I mean, not that things have changed, but is so prevalent. And there's so much trauma in the city because of, you know, what just happened in World War II. And everything you've pointed out about her being

pregnant again, there's a lot of drinking. But the thing is, I don't know how these other women who are in the backyard died. There you go. So were they strangled? Look at that. Thank you. That's very detective-y of you. Yes. Asking you sound like you sound like Paul Holes. This is what Paul Holes would ask me. I think this kind of thing. Yeah. Paul Holes. Yeah, there you go. The ultimate compliment. I was just going to go, no. I'd say right off the bat with the information I have, I still think this was a domestic murder. Here's what I was going to say. Now, I'm going to try to observe as well as George just did, and it'll be sad. But the one thing that didn't work for me is if that's the only,

if this basically back outhouse type of setup is the only place that an entire building of people are using the restroom, how did those bodies not get found immediately after they were placed there? Because that's however many 9, 12, 16 people going in and out of that place and they're not found. So to me, it was just like, it's not a smart quote unquote hiding place. They couldn't have been there the entire time. Somebody else is involved who lives there because they're controlling when and where those bodies are placed. Yeah, go ahead. No, Georgia, you're good. Georgia's like, can I argue that? I'm just going to let you guys talk for a little bit, and then just point at me when you're ready. Will you mute yourself real quick? No.

I will say though, there were two bodies that we know of right now in that backyard and none of those nine or whatever people found it. And also, I think that the setup of outhouses back then, there was a board and then there was an underneath. So it wasn't like they were just visible. They were secluded sort of, yes. Right. And then also, it is kind of a perfect place because the smell of decomposition could be confused for the smell of an outhouse. But more than that, they didn't know that there were two bodies in that backyard. And so two more bodies, I feel like, could have gone undetected. Yeah, I think the Timothy Evans's argument was that he didn't have a key to that particular,

to that washroom. So the setup of the house. I'm going to need to see a blue print of this washroom. I'm going to email it. So I can now make my argument. So the setup of the house was that there was a man named Mr. Kishner who lived in the middle floor, and then there were the Evans who were on the top floor, and then the Christie's, he and his wife were on the bottom floor. So Christie kind of kept a pretty tight control over that wash house and the outhouse too. And people didn't, there was a sink in the outhouse also. So people didn't use the wash house very often. It was more of like a laundry place, but Mr. Kishner had been in the hospital for three or four weeks. So he was out of that process.

So we're just left with the Christie's and John Christie did his wife's laundry and you're left with the Evans. So there are theories that are befuddling to me that we'll talk about a little bit later about how all that works, but let's get back to George's various student question about, I know, about how people died. So let's just go back and talk about John Christie in general. He is on the realm for me of serial killers. He is the creepiest of creepy. He's somebody who I think most people would not be surprised if he were a serial killer. So he was born in Halifax, England in 1899. And he was the sixth of a family of women. So he was both mothered and I think demeaned at the same time. They were all very, everyone in his life was sort of overpowering

to him. His dad was a tyrant. He never said that he was abusive. John Reginald Christie, everybody called him Reg, but I like to call him John Christie, never said that his father was abusive, but it sounded like what we would now categorize as abusive. Then they would call it Victorian era parenting. So lots of marching for miles and miles and miles and single file and lots of whipping and that sort of thing. And so Christie had been under someone's thumb his whole life. The first time he saw some relief was at his grandfather's funeral. And it was the first time that he had seen a dead body. Now, I don't know if you all have heard, I've read this with a lot of different serial killers, that their first experience with a dead body is what triggers

some thoughts for them. This was Christie's grandfather who sounded like a pretty terrible person. And I think seeing this man who had terrorized him for a long time, laying there, defenseless, it really sparked something in him. And I've read the same thing about Dennis Nielsen who was a serial killer in London in I think the late 80s. He said the same thing. He saw his grandfather dead and that was when he really became fascinated with the idea of death. Have you heard that? Sorry, Dennis. Yes. Well, I think because Dennis Nielsen is the one, if I'm not mistaken, who was killing gay men. Right. And what's very strange is that these stories are really parallel. He also lived in the top of like a three apartment thing. And Georgia, this is the

guy that was putting people's bodies. He was boiling them and then putting them down the thing. And they had the plumber came because everything got gummed up. When you first started talking about this, I was like, this is not this. That was the 70s, 80s. So, but it's very parallel in that way. I don't remember hearing that ever. And that makes about the dead body, you know, it's like suddenly your power is gone. This is the only way they can get power. And they realize, oh, my God, that's dark. This very strong, you know, this strong powerful person has been reduced to a lifeless body. And so this really sparked an interest in Christie with death and having power over somebody who was dead. So Christie through life is never really well liked. He's odd and not

fun odd. Like odd odd. Yeah, not like you guys. Like an odd odd. He had a personality where he was a very acerbic. He was on a soccer team, football team. And he would try to control things on the pitch all the time. He would argue with referee. He snitched on people at work. He was just sort of unpleasant. He had no luck with women, which probably is in a surprise. He was impotent to a point where he would try to sleep with a woman and he earned the nickname can't do it Christie. I know you guys would be fine with me saying, but I'm not going to say really. He was really, he was really gone through the ringer, I think as a young man. And he really didn't have luck with women. He spoke very quietly and this didn't really help when he served in World War One.

And he was a victim of mustard gas where he lost his voice. So picture this person balding, not really good skin texture. He had really thick glasses. He had this sort of weird stare about him. He had a squeaky voice. He barely spoke over a whisper. So with a better personality, he probably would have been just fine. But because he was one of those, you know, meld into the wallpaper kind of people, he just had a unpleasant reputation. He was a photographer though, and he was a pretty good one. And he was an animal lover. And he had a couple of ancient dogs that he doted after. So he finally strikes some luck and he meets Ethel Simpson, who is a woman. He courts and they eventually get married. He has a petty crime history.

He works for a post office and steals checks. And, you know, he's never really done anything too serious until he leaves Ethel briefly and takes up with a woman who has a child. And the child is acting out and Christie doesn't like that. And he gets an argument with this girlfriend and he takes a cricket bat and whacks her in the head with it. Jesus Christ. So he's arrested briefly. And then after he gets out of prison, he reunites with Ethel and she says, okay, let's get married. And so they end up, I know, I mean, I think she just waited for them. They tried to have children. They both really wanted children. She wasn't able to. She miscarried. And, you know, I think he just accept they both accepted that they weren't going to have children

and they wanted to live in the city. He was hoping to get a better job. He had a hard time keeping jobs. That was another thing is, you know, he was not the most pleasant person to be around and he, he had a hard time keeping jobs. He just wasn't as reliable as he could have been. But he ends up moving into with Ethel in 1937 to 10 Rollington Place, which was again, three rooms of flats. It was, it's an interesting building because it's an old Victorian house. So if you picture that, he's got the ground floor where people who are walking in and out of this area, it's supposed to be three floors, but you're walking through his living room to get you your flat on the second floor or the third floor. So Christy was physically weak. He complained of

just about every ailment you could think of. And I say in the book, there's very few times, I love podcasting because I can show my personality a little bit. And I can't crack many jokes in a serious history, nonfiction book, but, but he does complain of a lot of things at the same time, aches and pains and flatulence and everything happens at the same time for him. So you can imagine that he's just this big of a mess of a person who's just unpleasant all the time. So he ends up, you know, moving into 10 Rollington Place and he becomes a war reserve police officer, which we talked about. He has affairs with various women who they're not sex workers, but they're women. He clearly is supplementing their income and they're his girlfriends.

This happens a couple of times. It's unclear whether Ethel knows about this stuff or not, but he becomes a war reserve police officer and does really well. And so police officers around London recognize who he is. When Timothy Evans's trial comes up for murder, he has a certain amount of credibility because of that, because he's got this great job. So he decides that he wants to woo this woman named Ruth first, who works at a musicians factory. And Ruth is someone who is one of those women who needed to take some part-time sex work. It's unclear whether or not that was the case or whether or not she just wanted to go on a date with John Christie. But regardless, with all the men to choose from in London, even though John Christie

is not someone I would say is this, you know, ideal charming man, he probably presented as the least offensive of many options. He's probably not going to hurt you. He's kind of wimpy. He doesn't have a strong personality. This is someone who I think you would look at and say, I could trust him. He's creepy, but I can overpower him. So Ruth, she is 21 years old and she goes back to Christie's flat with him. Ethel goes away to her sister's house often. And when she goes, because it's a long train ride and it's kind of a bit of a journey, she stays for a while, so he gets his flat alone for a couple of weeks at a time. And she likes to go home often. So he brings Ruth home and they have a drink and she agrees to have sex with him. And so they have

sex. And in the middle of it, spontaneously, he has a rope and he takes the rope, which was like a bed linen rope that had just naturally been lying there. He decides that he's going to strangle her. So this seems out of the blue, but I'm not sure it really is because he had hired sex workers in the past and had liked some sort of rough play. But generally speaking, with the exception of cracking a woman over the head with a cricket bat, there had not been anything officially in his past to show that he was really violent, very, very violent. And so when he strangles Ruth first, I think it probably surprised him. And, you know, I think he panicked and he didn't really know what to do. So the first thing that he did was he pulled up the floorboards

of their master bedroom and he put her body under the floorboards. This is where things get really weird when it's intertwined with Timothy Evans. Now remember, this is five years before Timothy Evans even moves into 10 Rollington Place. He says, he says, what to himself? What am I going to do? And then he thinks the most logical place is for him to bury her in the garden in the back. But he wants to be able to transport her body and put the body somewhere in the meantime for just half a day while he can think where in the garden, what time should I do this? So in the dead of night, he carries her body and he stores her where? In the bath house. In the wash house. In the wash house. In the wash house. In the wash house.

In the same place. That's his spot. That's his spot. Oh, shit. Okay. So now he strangled and he puts her there. All right. And how did Burl and Geraldine die? Strangoliation. Yeah. All right. Here we go. So he, in the middle of the night, buries Ruth first in his garden and he plants, plants above her. And the only reason I know this is that the Museum of London had a display, the crime museum, and they showed a Ruth first spinal cord when they recovered the body. And it had a tree that had grown through the spine. And it was like a certain kind of bush. It was a bush, bushy tree. And, you know, they, I was able to identify the flowers. He had planted this and he later said that he had planted stuff above her. So he now has gotten away with it.

This is the thing that he's thought about is, you know, can he kill a woman? Can he disable her? He's always had problems with women. He's always had problems with impotence. So any questions so far that I always ask my students that, do we have any questions? You can raise your hand if you want. No, we're with it. Yeah. My question is, whoa. Okay. Okay. Not technically a question, but that's okay. Yeah. Okay. I don't know questions and I don't know Roman numerals. It's kind of my thing. So he has 21-year-old Austria and she's from Austria, munitions worker Ruth first in his back garden. So he does something that we know a lot of serial killers do. He managed to find women victims who are not looked after.

So her family's in Austria. He knows that she doesn't have any family here. She's here to try to make a better life and, you know, to send money back to her family. So nobody's looking for her. And her not showing up to work is not a problem because people didn't show up all the time. You know, when you're in an era like this in a post-war city like London, people are flaking all the time. It's just not surprising. So nobody was alarmed. So about a year later, he meets a woman at a different job. Remember, he's hopping from job to job. He worked for a radio production factory. And in 1944, he meets a woman named Muriel Emilia Edie. So Muriel was not a sex worker. She, you know, had a full-time job and she didn't need anything

from him. She didn't particularly like him. Like she didn't want to date him. She had a boyfriend. But, and this is where John Christie is really creative. She had a cough and that cough was brought on by bronchitis from the air pollution that was happening all the time. If you lived in London in the 30s or 40s or 50s and 60s too, you were subjected to air pollution there and overwhelming amounts. And a lot of people had bronchitis. And you could see it like in the air. It's like, it's like pea soup, right? And on the cover of your book, there's this incredible photo of this woman just swimming in this thick pollution. I had no idea. It's awful. It looks actually similar to what we experienced today because she has this like chiffon

wrap across her face to block it, which is worthless. You're not going to block your pollution like that. But it's a pretty photo and it's something that, yeah. So that was everyday life for them. So Muriel constantly had a cough and John Christie said, I have a certificate in first aid. Now that made me chuckle at first. It's apparently a big deal. I did not know it was a big deal. It's a whole, it's not just taking a couple of hour class and CPR and that's it. It's pretty intensive. And he has the certificate on his wall and he says, I have a cure for that. So why don't you come back to my house? Of course, his wife was out of town. And why don't you come back to my house and I can give you a treatment for that. And she was tired of the coughing.

And I don't think that he came off as creepy all the time. I think he saved up a bunch of charm and then distributed appropriately to women. So he got her back to the house and he offered her a drink and she said, no. And he said, okay, well, let me tell you about this treatment. And he sat her down in the kitchen and he said, hold this jar, kind of like the vaper rub that you would inhale and it would really help clear out your lungs, right? Or you would put it on your chest. It was sort of a menthol type of smell and it had a tube running from it that had sort of a mouthpiece. So he told her, put this mouthpiece over your mouth and breathe this stuff in and it smelled minty and she started to feel better. What she didn't know was that there

was another tube connected to the jar and it went straight to the tap, the gas tap on the back of his stove. And later on with this method, he would add a bull clip so that it was really easy. He would have the gas on, it would be cut off, he would release the bull clip and then all of a sudden you have carbon monoxide gas going into that jar and it knocked her out and he had a parapani hose and he sexually salted and then strangled her and killed her. So he's basically also improving his, as they do, where like you were saying, he could save up a little bit of his charm where it's like, well, he knew he had to get this thing. So he's going to work as hard as he can and then he's also going to perfect his MO essentially.

You know, it's so interesting. He made it easy on himself. He had never had manual strangulation. He was never physically strong enough to do that. So he would either use pantyhose or, well, I don't believe he used a necktie in any case, but you could say a necktie, anything that rope, anything that you could use that would help him. He had poor hand grip. I mean, just this man seemed afflicted with everything, which- It's also interesting that he didn't want to have a struggle. He wanted them to be knocked out. Right. Because he had one with Ruth first. I'm pretty sure she fought back. I mean, he didn't have, nobody of course could examine him because he wasn't even a suspect with his nails or anything. But so he did the same thing. He takes Muriel, he wraps her up,

he puts her in the outhouse for a couple of hours in the washroom for a couple of hours at the most and he digs in the middle of the night. He is digging and the neighbor asked him, how are you doing? And he said, Cheerio, I mean, digging a grave in his backyard, there are walls surrounding the brick walls surrounding the garden, but they're not tall brick walls. I mean, you can see over and see what he was doing. So he buries Muriel and plants things on top of her and he lives his life for quite a long time. Now, you know, based on what happens between now and the next incident, so between 18, 1944 and the next thing that happens is 1952. What happens, right, that's a big gap. What happens over that time period is mysterious. We know that he hired

a lot of sex workers. We know that it is unlikely he killed other people just because of what happens after this. He has a definite spot where he wants to keep people and he doesn't seem to deviate from things. But I will say that Burl Evans and Geraldine Evans move in with Timothy Evans four years after this happens, three to four years after this happens. So he and his wife are living their lives and a big change happens after Timothy Evans is hanged. And the change is called the Windrush. I was just talking to my students about this. So the Windrush was a boat that brought over people from other colonies, from Caribbean colonies, who had fought in World War II on behalf of the British. And they came over and were invited to come to become, I think, naturalized

citizens. When they came, they faced just incredible amounts of racism. But it's the history, partially the history of how London's as a city has such an amazing population of Caribbean people there. So the demographic in Notting Hill changed completely between the time Timothy Evans was executed in 49 to where the fog happens in 52. And instead of an old white man living on the second floor and, you know, a young couple living on the third floor, they are now experiencing an influx of Caribbean workers who are living. And it's something like 10 to 15 in that house in Wellington Place. This is maddening for Ethel Christie, his wife. And, you know, John Christie is not particularly thrilled either. There are a lot of conflicts. With that many people, it

doesn't matter where they're from, you're going to have a lot of trash and, you know, that people were not respectful of each other's space. And it just drove the Christie's crazy. So Ethel was also the amount of people coming through your living room, not to be on John Christie's side, but that's a nightmare of just like you're the, you're basically the foyer. You're living here. And one outhouse washroom for all of these people. So it was very, very difficult for the Christie's. And they dug in their heels. They did not want to leave. So this was their home. And of course, he's got two bodies in the backyard. He's not going to leave anytime soon. He's not going. He's committed. So John Christie sort of tries to deal with it, but Ethel is getting worse and

worse. She is upset. She has really bad arthritis as she ages. She's in her fifties when this happens. And in 1952 comes the fog. That's part of my book. And the fog has shut down the whole city. So essentially, there's so much air pollution in London because it's the most populated city in the world. It's a very small city geographically. And it's at the bottom of a basin, the Thames River Valley basin. So that when this little, this little ant, that's called an anticyclone, settled over the city, it caught like a, like a lid on top of a jar. It caught all this air pollution. And usually these blow out, you know, it's like every time you guys hear that we have like a red alert pollution day, it's usually because there's like a, there's a high pressure

system that hangs over the city and it traps all the air pollution. And then it goes away. There's another little pressure system that pushes it out. That's not what happened. For five days, record breaking air pollution was trapped in that city. So all of public transit shut down. Everybody called out sick. And John Christie is now stuck in the house with his wife, which my friend says is the worst case scenario for any serial killers to be stuck in the house with your wife for five days. Yes. So he leaves, he walks to work and he quits. He was at the UK's transit system, one of the departments as sort of a clerk. He resigns for some reason. We don't know why. I think he was planning something. So he returned home. He rented like a little photo,

little photo studio flat kind of thing that he never told Ethel about. He never told Ethel. He was Ethel, he was going to quit. He had women come, female models come and he would photograph them in the nude and he would be in the nude. And it, you know, he was really building up to something. So three days after the fog, he wakes up in the middle of the night and Ethel has just kind of at her limit and he looks at her and she just, and he decides this is her day and he kills her. He strangles her. Yeah. Oh my God. From the front too. He straddled her and strangled her from the front. So he didn't knock her out or do anything. You know, they had had problems because there were young women who kind of hung about. He had some money and he was spreading the money around

and she had tried to shoo all these women away. So he kills her. He kills his wife and he has to decide what to do because I know this sounds strange, but this is not a big garden and he's pretty much out of room. He has two bodies back there. His dog has dug up Muriel Eadie's skull and he took the skull in the middle of the night and dumped it smartly, dumped it in a blitzed out house where there's no way anybody was ever going to find it. It was totally bombed and flattened out. And then of course the dog also dug up Ruth's leg bone, her femur and he used it to prop up this fence. So he takes Ethel's body and he pulls up the floorboards of the parlor and he puts her under there and it's there. She stays. He wrapped her up like a mummy. It was

early, early, it was December, mid-December, very, very cold. Of course you have to picture, these are not heated apartments except for coal fireplaces. So it was mummified. It was not causing a massive smell immediately, not immediately. He takes a couple of keepsakes, her wedding ring because he needs to sell it because he's quit his job and he takes a snippet of her hair. He keeps trophies. We'll talk about that in a little bit and he puts her under the floorboard and he sleeps on top of the floorboard in the parlor to be close to her. So this was, you know, pretty terrifying I think. Later on he would blame that she was having a seizure and this is what happened. But you know, it's pretty clear that he strangled her with,

I think it was a pair of pantyhose. So what comes in next is an interview with this man named Lynn Trevelyan who was wonderful for me. He was 101 when I interviewed him. Oh my God. He interviewed 101. That's amazing. He was great except for one little thing I'll tell you about in a little bit. So he was 101. He was 101. He was 101 and I had to catch him at a certain time so that he was, you know, alert and everything. And he was great though. He was one of Winston Churchill's body guards and he was amazing. So this police officer is patrolling Notting Hill in 1952 and he is just a young cop and he is on the street and he sees somebody run out of a bakery

with a tin of what they said biscuits but for us would be cookies, a tin of biscuits and this guy is just booking it down the street and he runs into Tin Rillington place and at Tin Rillington place he throws open the door and runs up the stairs and Lynn Trevelyan pursues him and catches him, drags him down the stairs, takes him to Notting Hill, throws him in the jail and they book him. And out of a courtesy, he decides he wants to go back because he knows John Christie is a war reserve police officer and Christie was there at the time and I'm sure it was like, what the what? What's happening? This guy is getting chased down. So he goes back, Trevelyan goes back, he knocks on the door, Christie opens the door and invites him inside

and they're talking, kind of chatting as much as John Christie was really able to chat normally with anybody. He was chatting and Trevelyan stops and he says, what's that smell? And Christie said, we have Caribbean neighbors and their food and their cooking has got awful and that's what that smell is. Okay. And he leaves. And later on, because the spoiler alert is Christie, of course, does get arrested. Lynn Trevelyan is assigned to watch him because everybody who was arrested at that time was on a suicide watch. And so Trevelyan was assigned to watch him and Christie walked in and Trevelyan, you know, looked at him and Christie said, you recognize me and you know, you are in my flat. Trevelyan said, of course, I recognize you. And he said, well,

and he got this big smile on his face and he said, I guess you know what that smell was. He said, you're standing right on top of my wife. And that's what I mean by next level serial killer gross. I mean, he's gleeful about it. He was so disconnected from any of his victims, even his wife, who was devoted to him for so long. But to him, it was like a game he won. Like he's basically telling this cop, I'm smarter than you. Like I got away with it. You walked away. You know, that's the classic psychopath move, right? Yeah. And I will tell you that if, and this is nothing, I don't expect Lynn Trevelyan to have been able to pick up anything from that. But if he had three more people would have been alive

because we still have three more bodies to get through. Yeah. And Trevelyan, you know, Lynn Trevelyan, when I talked to him about it, he just said, I just couldn't even believe that that was what happened. But he didn't recognize it. So anyway. Well, John Chrissy had the perfect cover. I mean, like that's what they do, right? So it's like, if you want to get away with stuff, it's a great idea to pick a profession or volunteer with something where you basically, you can't be questioned. It's the police. These are the most trustworthy people. I'm a priest. I am a pastor. I'm going to enter into these places where I am above questioning. I'm actually the questioner. So don't worry about it, like that idea.

All right. So we've all just had a little meeting and decided that this is going to be because it must be because we're so enthralled with this, a two-parter. We're only halfway through the story. So it's going to have to be a two-parter, right, Kate? Yes. And good luck trying to cut me down to any amount of time on the story. As I said, I've written a whole book about this. That's why we love you. No, I think it's a perfect cliffhanger. I love it. Yeah. So coming up, we can expect three more bodies and John Chrissy to get away with a lot of stuff. We can also expect a incredible history-making manhunt that overshadows

a horrible air pollution disaster that was coming. So we have a trial and a media blitz to look forward to in part two. I love it. Amazing. Tenfold more wicked. My favorite murder, the crossover with Kate Winkler Dawson. Bye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producers are Hannah Kyle-Cryton and Natalie Rinn. Our producer is Alejandra Keck. This episode was engineered and mixed by Andrew Epin. Email your hometowns and fucking hurrays to myfavoritmurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at myfavoritmurder and on Twitter at myfavemurder.

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