My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 322 - Tenfold More Murder: Part 2
Episode Date: April 14, 2022On today's episode, Karen and Georgia welcome back Kate Winkler Dawson to continue the story of serial killer John Reginald Christie.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and Califo...rnia Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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This is exactly right.
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Hello.
Hello.
And welcome to my favorite murder.
That's Georgia Hardstark.
That's Karen Kilgariff.
And I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, and this is 10-Fold More Wicked.
The Cliffhanger.
We're back.
We're back, baby.
Yes.
That story was wild and exciting, and there's more.
When we last left off, at 10 Rillington Place, bodies were piling up, thigh bones were being
leaned against fences.
Can I change my mind and say that I think the husband didn't do it?
Nope.
It's too late.
No!
I don't like horses.
Now you've got to write it to the finish line.
I'm sorry, Georgia.
I don't like.
I don't ride horses.
I don't want to.
It's the tough love of horseback riding vis-a-vis podcasting.
This is just how it is.
No.
I want to get bucked off and change my mind.
Well, there's more info to come, so don't, don't wish you wash, flip-flop just yet.
There's still more time.
Okay.
I do want to have a disclaimer in that I have picked up some sort of plague within the last
two days.
It's not a COVID plague, but a plague that has wreaked havoc on my nose and my throat.
So if I have a little gulp or if I feel too lazy, yeah, I think you're so good.
Yeah.
Oh, not that.
And we can, the magic of editing, we've got Andrew, Ethan, uh-oh, she's back.
She actually to prove her own point is now going into fits of coughing to be like, how
dare you?
No, you sound great.
You sound amazing.
We love that cough.
That's great for podcasting.
And it actually kind of fits this story because we're in the middle of this crazy fog.
This was the sound that was plaguing London in 1952.
Don't make me laugh.
Can we get some coarse clopping noises on cobblestone?
This is the fifties.
Not helping.
Nobody's helping in this situation.
Oh right, there's cars.
Shut up.
There's cars.
Everyone knows there's cars.
Shut up.
You're going to make me gag now.
I have that effect on people.
Why don't you catch up?
Let me mute myself.
I mean, we've got nothing to talk about.
It's all about you.
You need some hot lemon honey water or something.
Is that what that is?
She knows.
You know what?
It's missing.
A little splash of whiskey, baby.
Yeah.
Just to calm it all down.
I usually don't get bad allergies.
I don't know what happened, but I don't know.
So much energy coming from you guys.
I think I just took something on.
Is it bad juju or something, did somebody do something wrong and you put it on me?
Maybe seeing my cat right here is like suddenly allergy attack.
Well, I think making this a two-parter sprung us into something.
Yes.
Some other.
Yeah.
We agreed to something we could have never known.
That George and I entirely benefit from because that means that's one show we don't
have to do.
That's right.
The homework for ourselves.
So we were like, yeah, love it.
Yeah.
I hate homework too.
Okay.
I think I'm ready.
All right.
Let's go over what we already know about what happened at 10 Wellington Place in the late
1840s, early 1950s.
So Timothy Evans and his wife, Burl Evans and move in.
She's pregnant.
She has a little girl named Geraldine and Geraldine and Burl go missing about a year
after they move in.
Timothy Evans has a drinking problem.
He's kind of a violent husband, a lot of domestic violence, a lot of fighting between
the two of them.
But yet he seems to be a really good father.
He confesses to murdering them and hiding their bodies.
So when Timothy Evans returns to Wales where he's from, he goes to the police and he confesses.
He shows up and he says, I've killed my wife and my child in London.
The police phone Notting Hill, which is where they lived in London at the time.
And the Notting Hill police go down and search.
And finally, after a few days, they find Burl and the little girl Geraldine and they're
wrapped up sort of mummy style in an outdoor wash house that has not been used for quite
a while.
So there's a wash house in a laboratory and the wash house is really where people do
laundry and it's been sort of shut down by one of the tenants, John Christie, who has
said, you know, there's some problems with it and the water doesn't work.
And so he's discouraged people from using this wash house.
So Timothy Evans confesses and then he recants and he says that his neighbor John Christie
is the one who did it.
And who's killed these two people.
So John Christie says he was a wife beater.
He was a terrible person.
Timothy Evans goes on trial.
He's convicted much of it based on eyewitness testimony, just in general and character
witnesses, but also primarily on John Christie and his wife.
They babysat for Geraldine.
They liked Burl.
Burl seemed like she was a nice woman.
Timothy was not a nice man.
And so, you know, we think this is what happened.
He is hanged and the story is forgotten.
We do know going backward that John Christie, who people call reg John Christie would go
and he picked up a couple of different women in the early 1940s when he was a war reserve
police officer.
He picked up two women separately and killed them and put them in the backyard.
So he buried them in the backyards and he planted things over them and worked in the
backyard all the time.
So he was obviously wanting to keep people close whomever he was, you know, killing.
So there is a large gap between 1944, which is when he killed his last victim and Burl.
There's about five years, four years.
And when Burl goes missing, John Christie doesn't seem to do anything.
He's visiting sex workers.
He's opened up a little photography shop that is mostly sex work, it sounds like.
He's hiring women who are part-time sex workers, but also women who just need money to do sexy
photos with him.
So he's a creep, but he doesn't appear to be killing.
If we believe the MO that, you know, he is someone who kills people, a certain type of
woman and puts them around him, the backyard or wherever.
So in 1952, he gets tired of it all.
I think he just gets tired in general.
He was 54 and he quits his job in December.
And then he strangles his wife, Ethel, who was continually getting on his nerves.
He pulls up the floorboards and the parlor he puts under the floorboards.
He gets several keepsakes and it seems like he is ready to transition into something in
his life.
So I told you the story of the police officer who was invited inside and this horrible smell
that was happening in the parlor and he found out later on that it was because he was standing
above Ethel Christie's body.
So this is all, of course, really terrible.
We're in December of 1952.
Let's pretend that we're not even thinking about Burl and Geraldine being two of his
victims.
So you've got two women in the garden and you've got his wife under the floorboards
and the parlor.
Then you've got a woman coming up in January whose name was Kathleen Maloney.
And she was a sex worker, full-time sex worker from Ladbroke Grove area, which is close by
Notting Hill.
And she was a woman who drank an awful lot and she was someone who was very popular,
not popular as a sex worker would be popular with clients.
She just was a friendly person.
She was a really nice person and she met John Christie one night.
And again, in the grand scheme of post-war London where you have a lot of really angry
men who have just served in World War II and they're home, and John Christie is not such
a bad person as someone who's soliciting you for sex work.
So he gets her pretty drunk.
He gets her home to Tenerlington Place.
Of course, now Ethel is dead.
So he's totally unrestrained as far as who he brings home and when.
We have a lot of different people living in the building at this point, a lot of people
coming and going.
So no one is noticing people coming in and out of this building because it's just happening
all the time.
So he employs the way of killing that he did previously, which was now about 10 years old.
So he's got the menthol concoction that he has in a jar.
And he's got one piece of rubber that leads to a mouthpiece for the woman to breathe in.
And another piece of rubber that leads to the gas tap at the back of his stove.
And he has a bull clip now.
So this is where he really starts to employ the bull clip, which doesn't seem like a big
deal, but it's fast for him.
He turns on the gas and it's already been on.
He can release the bull clip and it's just very quick.
Kathleen Maloney is knocked out.
He sexually assaults her and then he strangles her.
So this is a method that he's sort of perfected.
Again, John Christie is a physically weak person.
So Kathleen Maloney is dead.
He has no room in the parlor because his wife is there.
He doesn't have room in the garden any longer because there's two women there.
So he does something that is really interesting and really gross as far as I'm concerned.
He goes to the kitchen and he removes part of the kitchen alcove.
That's sort of where a coal storage unit used to be.
And he removed it and he placed her body inside of it.
And then he put a false wall in and wallpapered over it.
So he has a body now in the open and Lynn Trevelyan, the police officer had smelled
his wife, you know, who was in the floorboards, which is the wood was pretty thick.
So I'm not sure what he was thinking.
He started using a lot of lye according to his neighbors inside and outside and all around
to hopefully cover up the smell.
Also this is happening in January in London, which is very cold and very dry.
There's not a lot of precipitation.
So she sort of mummifies all of the people around them, you know, that he's buried around
him and mummified.
So you go a few weeks later and he meets a woman named Rita Nelson who was from Belfast
and she was also visiting her sister and she meets Christie.
She is six months pregnant at the time and she has a family back in Belfast who are looking
out for her.
So very similar situation as Kathleen Maloney.
He meets her at a pub, he gets her really, really drunk because he has the money.
Now he's also running out of money.
He has sold Ethel's jewelry.
He kept her wedding ring, but then he later sold it.
He sold her clothes.
He actually offers Kathleen Maloney some clothes.
That's one of the ways he got her back to the flat was saying, I've got all these great
clothes and it was his wife's clothes.
He's selling furniture.
He's really scraping the bottom of the barrel because he has no money because he's quit
his job and it's two months later.
So he meets Rita Nelson.
She comes back.
The same thing happens.
She breathes in these fumes, these carbon monoxide fumes and she dies.
Now one key forensic thing, when you breathe in carbon monoxide, you are poisoned and it
gives you this sort of pinkish hue which stays for a very, very long time, which is why they've
been able to exhume bodies and many times still see that you can see that there's evidence
of carbon monoxide poisoning.
It actually becomes key later on.
So Rita Nelson dies.
He puts her in the same alcove.
He takes down the wall, takes down the wallpaper, puts another two women back in this alcove
and he wallpapers them back in.
Nobody's suspicious.
Now, Ethel's family, remember when I told you she goes to visit her family a lot?
Ethel's family is curious about how come she hasn't come to visit because I think she
went in early, early December right before she was killed, right before the fog started
and they hadn't seen her since and it was unusual to not see her around the holidays.
So he had bought some postcards and he had written in his hand, this was smart, he had
written in his hand and he said Ethel's arthritis is so bad that she asked me to write this
postcard for you and they didn't think anything of it.
Her family was never suspicious until all of this starts to come out because he was good
at covering things up.
Yeah, but now he's tying himself directly to it by name, which is really bad.
It's totally reminding me of the H.H. Holmes story in Chicago.
Also just the idea that you could put someone behind a wall, but it's in your kitchen.
He's keeping them so close.
Extra creepy.
What do you think that means?
And y'all's experience hearing more stories than I've probably ever heard, is that some
sort of sadistic weird thing for him or is it a practical thing?
I think practical, like you're in a crowded city and I'm sure there's police patrolling
the streets at night, especially if you're in a bad neighborhood like that.
I don't think it'd be easy to secret a body out of there.
I totally agree and then also I think there's that like its ownership and control.
It's essentially, it's totally more convenient, but it's also like, it's the ultimate trophy
to keep.
Yeah.
It's just like, I did this, that creepy, creepy serial killer thing.
But just behind the wall is horrifying.
It is in thin walls and you can smell it and maybe this was something he enjoyed, I don't
know, but it's pretty gruesome.
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Goodbye.
That makes a person a murderer.
Are they born to kill or are they made to kill?
I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown
every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths and
cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news.
I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent and criminal profiler.
From Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly
arrested Stockton Serial Killer.
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So the last person is a woman named Hectorina McClellan and she went by Enan.
So she was living in London with her boyfriend and he met both of them at this cafe and befriended
both of these people and he invited them both back because he was saying that he was going
to have a room to rent and so they both went back and they checked out the room and he
actually said they could spend the night and he said he preferred that they slept separately
because they weren't married.
And so Alex Baker agreed, Enan did too I guess, and this was I think the first time
he was really trying to draw someone in who was not, someone who was not easily drawn
back to his house.
So he asked Enan to come back and to have a discussion with him without Alex about the
price of the rent.
She comes in, he offers her a drink, she has some drinks.
Suddenly she becomes inebriated and she dies and he sexually assaults her and now there's
three people in the alcove.
So to recap, two in the garden, one in the parlor and then three in the alcove.
So now we're up to six and he's running out of room and I think he realizes he's running
out of room.
Now, again, Enan has someone who cares a lot for her and Alex comes back and starts harassing
John Christie and says, where's my wife or where's my girlfriend, I don't understand what's happening.
And he said maybe she ran off and he was really trying to put him off.
But I think that John Christie was really becoming aware that things were going to be
falling apart.
He was running out of money.
He was running out of space.
People could be suspicious.
And he was getting a little sloppy about who he was picking.
Also, he has all these bodies buried in his house and then now he's inviting people to
the house.
Yeah.
I don't really understand that.
And maybe you guys have some input too.
I don't understand inviting a police officer to come in and he was very brazen about it.
And he had a quick response.
He was a smart guy.
Everybody knew he liked to take things apart like watches and put them back together.
He was very bright.
He sounds cocky and he sounds like he's getting cockier because taking in a sex worker who
no one in her life can connect that specific guy to her is one thing.
And it's like, why sex workers get braided on is because of the anonymity.
But then you're bringing home a couple.
The boyfriend could just go to the cops and be like, well, we spent the night at this
creep's house and now he's being shady.
Right.
He can be ID.
Yeah.
Or like, yeah, this guy sent us postcards supposedly in our missing daughter's name.
He's getting cocky or he wants to get caught.
Or it's just the classic psychopath thing.
They think they're the smartest person in the room always.
They think they're like, he has gotten away with it.
So he's right to think it in a way.
But at the same time, they're always about pushing the boundaries.
You're standing here in basically a morgue and I'm the only one that knows it.
And I'm the one responsible for it.
Like he's this creepy little God in his world.
He needs people to be there to up that feeling.
Like once you do it once, then it needs to be that plus, right?
Every time.
I think you're both right.
And as the story goes on, you'll see a lot more evidence of all of that stuff.
So in 1953, he is officially out of room, it's March and he decides it's time to go.
He has had enough of all this.
He needs a different life.
It's unclear what his plan was, but his plan was to leave.
And so again, I need a comment about this.
He sublets out his apartment.
No.
No.
No.
He does.
He brings a couple back and he gets, I think it's about seven pounds, which is a great
price back at Notting Hill in the fifties.
He has the couple look around and they make an agreement and he says, you need to be careful
because I'm doing this illegally.
And they say, fine.
And he takes a few things and puts them in a suitcase and he bounces.
He doesn't give a fuck at this point.
He leaves them in this, a cemetery, basically, of an apartment.
Well, it's like short-term gain.
He wanted a little bit of money for, I mean, obviously this is going to not end.
Well, I don't understand this.
He is one of the more confusing killers I have ever, ever read about, for sure.
I think you're right, Karen, either he is really getting off on the idea that he's
this all powerful person or he's just a megalomaniac and doesn't think he'll ever get caught
or both, you know, all of it.
Yeah.
All of it.
So much time has passed that this guy's actually perfecting.
I mean, like he has gone on cut to the point where he is able to perfect his MO.
So some of these things seem highly risky and stupid, but he's getting away with it.
So it's not stupid, actually.
Not for much longer, though, luckily.
Okay.
All right.
Okay.
So he leaves.
This couple moves in.
The landlord spots a couple pretty immediately and boots them out after 24 hours.
So his secret is actually safe for a little while.
Now he checks in to what I would call as a senior citizen of hostile, like pensioners
living in London, and he uses his real name.
So he signs up under his real name and he gets a room and he stays in London.
So he could have left, but he stays in London.
He goes to cafes.
He hangs out.
So there is a tenant who in his building who is interested in cooking in his flat while
the flat is being kind of primed eventually to be rented out.
And the tenant tells the landlord, can I install a radio down there to be able to listen to
the radio?
And he says, sure.
So he goes down there and he starts pounding into that wall and it starts cracking.
And he pulls it down because it's basically sheetrock.
It's like a thin sheetrock.
He pulls it down and he has it that in the UK they call them torches.
So he had a torch, which is a flashlight, and he stuck it into the hole and he saw three
backs of bodies.
Women are just wearing bras.
And then he said it was just the most terrifying thing he had ever seen.
Oh my God, the horror, it's a horror movie.
It's a horror movie.
It is.
And this is where it all falls apart for John Christie, but not for a really long time.
And this is where in my book, the intersection between the fog and John Christie come together
because, you know, the fog is the systemic issue of air pollution.
And we know another fog's coming that's killed 12,000 people.
And yet, as soon as the press hears about John Reginald Christie, no one has ever cared
about the fog.
No one cares that thousands of more people are going to die next year because it happens
every year.
Instead, there is this clear and present danger of this John Christie, who is a serial killer
and who's on the run.
And so when I'm looking through the archive of newspapers, you could see every day three
people found an alcove.
And the next day, why found under floorboards?
And then, of course, they started calling it the House of Horrors.
And then they start digging in the garden and all this stuff comes up.
So I had yesterday promised you there was a story about the police officer, who unfortunately
has a lot of encounters with John Christie.
The first is, you know, he's standing over his wife in the parlor.
The second is when John Christie finally gets caught, because he does, thankfully.
But this other instance, before Christie is caught, Lynch Rebellion as a young officer
is sent over to 10 Rollington Place, which again has been dubbed House of Horrors.
He walks into the backyard and he has a lot of younger officers than he.
He's supposed to supervise.
And they're excavating.
Right?
This would probably not be done now.
They would have a whole expert team coming in.
But you've got all these young officers with shovels trying to dig through the trash that
has been in this backyard, because it's actually even worse now than it was when Burl and Geraldine
were in the wash house three years earlier, because there's more tenants.
There's more junk.
So he's digging and he's digging and he's watching finally this dirt fly.
And he sees this copper 10 and it's a tobacco 10.
And I looked up, you know, what kind of tobacco it was and everything.
So he's telling me this story.
And again, this man is in his 100s.
He's 102.
Wow.
So he says, so I said, what was it?
And he said, I could just see it glinting.
He really knew how to tell a story of this guy.
So he's like, I could see it glinting.
And I walked over and I picked it up and it's a small tobacco 10.
And he said, I opened it up and there were more pubic hairs inside than you could ever
imagine.
Oh, wow.
I was going with teeth.
That is way.
No.
I would probably have rather had teeth in some ways.
Yeah.
I would absolutely have preferred teeth 100%.
And the problem was, was that they weren't, you know, they weren't particularly motivated
to figure out whose hairs were whose, but we don't know if this was a request from him
and none of these were people who had died.
It probably was Ethel's for sure, his wife, and he had buried it.
What the question was, was whether or not there were, were there more bodies based on
the pubic hairs?
And there was just no way to tell.
But it was a, it was an interesting story because it really did show.
He was pretty stunned by that as a young officer.
So.
Yes.
At this point, are they putting together that a couple of years ago, we found the body
of a one child.
Yeah.
Okay.
So at this point they're like, uh-oh.
Yeah.
It was a shit moment for the Metropolitan Police as well as the Crown Prosecutor.
But someone else has hanged for this crime.
Yep.
Three years earlier.
Let me tell you what ends up happening with him.
He doesn't leave.
He could have left.
So if we thought the Gabby Petito and Lacey Peterson case brought a lot of tips and clues
from the public, this is 20th century type of clues.
They were sending in snail mail by the hundreds and then thousands of clues to where John
Christy was because now you have the serial killer who's on the run for one week and then
two weeks in London.
People are spotting him all over the place.
Someone said, he's my crossing guard.
He's my kid's crossing guard.
I can tell by his hands, but, but you know, you, it's hard as a police officer as an investigator
because are you going to blow these off and what are you going to do?
You have to follow all these and he was in the city and he sat in cafes wearing sort
of a disguise, but not really, but that's how nondescript this man was.
People didn't notice him.
He was in a cafe and there was someone sitting right next to him reading an article about
him.
And so now what do you think that means?
I mean, why would he not just leave?
He could have been Scotland.
He could have gone a million different places, Wales, anywhere where maybe people wouldn't
have noticed him.
Why would he stay?
Yeah.
Cause back then you could just disappear.
You didn't really need identification.
He could have been gone forever.
So he had to want to get no variety and get caught and stuff, right?
To see the world kind of freak out about his taking of lives repeatedly and getting away
with it repeatedly.
I mean, like that's a real debacle and a circus that he caused, which you know, he loves.
Also did he, I wonder if he still had the photography studio.
Did he get rid of that?
No, I think he had.
Well, you know what?
That's a good question.
It was rented.
And I, and I assume he had to let it go when he was going broke, you know, that was the
hardest thing was that there, I don't know what he was thinking when he quit his job.
He didn't tell Ethel because she had just written a postcard to her, to her sister.
And she didn't say anything about quitting a job and I, I think she would have freaked
out on him.
So I don't know what the master plan was if he was just giving up, but he absolutely
had to have known that he would have been hanged if he got caught.
So here you go.
It's three weeks.
And then, you know, it is all points bulletin.
It is the craziest list of tips to come in from psychics and every, everybody on the
planet was writing in, it was like, where's Waldo trying to find John Christie?
And finally he is spotted early in the morning below a bridge by a young police officer.
And he doesn't deny it.
And he's looking pretty rough and he's in London and he's taken in and he's arrested.
And at this point they have found all the bodies.
They have made identifications.
So then we get a little bit into the forensics so they can tell from the bodies what happened.
So everybody was strangled.
So the three women who are in the alcove all have carbon monoxide poisoning, which we
expect because that's what he did.
No carbon monoxide poisoning with Ethel.
And of course we can't tell from the women in the garden because they were skeletonized
by the time that the coroner got hold of them.
So he's arrested and he's not really saying anything right now.
He has a public defender and the crown prosecutor is assessing the case and trying to figure
it all out.
And the prosecutor is really nervous because this seems like someone who's a lunatic.
And he is afraid that Christie is going to try to have an insanity defense.
And that was a very real possibility because it could have sane man ever do this.
And of course the answer is yes, of course sane men do this.
So Christie is interrogated about Burl and Geraldine.
So here's the thing about Burl and Geraldine.
They do not have carbon monoxide poisoning.
So that would be a check mark in the Christie did not do it.
Evans did do it category, I think, because that was generally his MO.
I mean, I think that Ethel was a little bit of a spur of the moment.
Maybe they got into a fight.
She didn't have carbon monoxide, but everybody else had been.
And of course you remember they didn't do a sexual assault test because it was a domestic
violence issue.
So we don't know anything about that.
So they start saying the crown prosecutor says you killed Burl and Geraldine and he
denies it at first.
And then he confesses.
And this is the problem with the theory of whether or not John Christie, which everybody
on the planet has believed for years that John Christie was the one who killed Geraldine
and Burl because no one believes that there could be a serial killer and another killer
living under the same house at the same time.
So Christie confesses.
That's the big evidence is one, it's inexplicable two killers are living in the house and don't
know it at the same time.
And number two, that this man would confess he did.
He said he did it.
I'm wondering.
Okay.
Here's my theory.
Here we go.
No, let's do it.
Okay.
He was an alcoholic, right?
And so he probably would get blackout drunk.
Maybe he woke up one morning, went out to the washroom, saw the body of the bodies of
his daughter and wife and was like, I must have done this in a blackout.
I am so guilt ridden because it's so out of character because he actually didn't do it
and wouldn't do it that he confesses to it because he's so horrified by it.
In actuality, he just put those pieces together based on, you know, seeing the bodies.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do you think, Karen?
That sounds very logical to me.
Also, I think that idea, like just from learning based on what you've told us, but like the
idea of basically a whole generation of men that are suffering basically from PTSD and
all the kind of after effects of that.
So this, maybe this like the drinking and the violence were a thing that he was constantly
struggling with, that the fact that it escalated like that and that both he and his wife were
fighting like the idea that the wife fights back, that that's just, it's like the progression
of that kind of domestic violence sickness in the household that it would make sense
to him once he saw those bodies like this is what this has progressed to.
And I'm sure there's plenty of blackouts before maybe that night.
I'm completely in that, I like that theory a lot.
Okay.
We can put that.
Yeah.
We can make a column for that.
Uh-oh.
No.
I just have more stuff to tell you.
Okay, great.
No, I like guessing along the way.
No, but I love this theory because I had not thought of that theory before.
I really, I haven't.
So the pathologist, let's talk about Merle.
And this is a little bit where you have to speculate.
And I know that, you know, you guys are not good at speculating at all.
So I'll just, I'll just lead you through.
You don't have to say anything during this section.
We're great at that.
So I looked at the coroner's reports and as well as the photos, Burl's photos.
And whomever killed her hit her so hard that her upper lip touched the top of her nose.
So I sent that report because I read what the pathologist said about when he thought
that happened.
And he said 45 minutes to an hour before death.
So I sent that to two modern pathologists both in Chicago and they agreed.
They said, yeah, you can kind of tell by how big it is and like the amount of blood and
how it would have caught, blah, blah, blah.
Now I'm trying to think this through and you guys can tell me what you think.
My thought was that John Christie has never hit anybody before.
He whacked a woman with a bat, but that's just not part of his thing.
He's never really hit a woman before.
Now Timothy Evans has, I am thinking that if John Christie does hit Burl Evans in the
face an hour before he kills her, how has nobody heard screaming or, you know, I just,
I don't know.
It just seems odd because I could see Timothy Evans and Burl getting into a physical fight
because they did that often and nobody really hearing it or people dismissing it.
But I can't see Burl taking a hit from John Christie and not reacting in some way that
people could hear or something.
It's just out of character for him and kind of for out of her too.
So what do you guys think about that?
What about the possibility that Timothy Evans does hit his wife in the face and she goes
down to the neighbors?
Is that what you're thinking?
I'm totally thinking that like she goes, okay, I get in a normal fight, but he hits her really
hard this time.
And she's like, fuck this, takes the child, goes downstairs to the very respectable downstairs
neighbors who babysit for her sometimes and he's a cop and I'm finally done with this
shit.
And this is, she actually is going right into the spider's web and Timothy gets drunk and
blacks out and doesn't really know what happens next except for that he knows his child and
wife are dead, which would be such a horrifying if that is something he actually witnessed.
I mean, wouldn't you just freak out?
Well, you gotta imagine that he wakes up the next morning, let's say he didn't do it.
He wakes up this morning, he's like, where are my wife and kids?
He looks everywhere for them, can't find them, looks in the backyard, looks in the washroom
that no one ever uses, like is it frantically looking for them?
And so would find them because he's looking harder than what he normally would for in
the backyard.
You guys are smart.
I know, right?
Really?
It's excellent.
It's excellent speculating.
And that's a professor saying that everybody.
I know, another armchair quarterback in true crime.
I didn't say I was a good professor, I didn't say I was a good professor.
Okay, let's continue because there's more, there's more evidence.
So then we talk about the confession.
So Christy confessed now he never confessed to Geraldine.
So he said he went up in his confession, he went up, he saw a burl, he tried to gas her,
but he said he turned on the gas tap and the room filled with gas.
And everyone, even the most naive police officers on the force said there's no way that happened.
It wouldn't have killed her the way that he was describing it.
And he would have died too.
And it was just, it was clearly kind of a made up story.
And he said, I did not kill Geraldine and he wouldn't, he said, I don't kill kids.
So here's where the confession is a problem.
Neither of these men is reliable in any way.
They both confessed and recanted and confessed and recanted, they're both liars.
They were both violent.
So it's hard to figure out who to believe.
What I do know is that Christy confessed to a murder in Windsor when he wasn't even there.
And his defense attorney said, we're going to throw the whole kitchen sink at him and
see if we can get an insanity defense or the insanity plea to save his life.
So I don't buy the confession at all.
And of course you guys know, I'm sure at this point that the innocence project says a very
large majority of people who are wrongfully convicted are convicted because they have
a false confession.
And it's not necessarily because the police have done anything to get that out of them.
They're scared and innocent people do hire attorneys.
They just do.
Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.
They hire attorneys.
So the confession thing for me is meaningless because I just don't believe it.
A girl doesn't show signs of any kind of a sexual assault the other women did.
So there's that.
What's weird about it is, is that I can see Christy killing a woman in his building, even
though it's not something he had done.
It's really hard to think that he's going to be able to drag her down four flights of
stairs only because they were very narrow and he was really, really wimpy.
I mean, he really could barely make do just getting out the front door and the back door
and he was able to get women obviously in the backyard, but also remember that those
two women were buried in the backyard 10 years earlier when he was in better health, which
is I think another reason why he didn't throw someone over her shoulder and go take them
somewhere else.
I think he really didn't have much of a choice.
So I think if he were confronted with Geraldine crying, I'm not sure Christy's first instinct
would be to kill her, but regardless, the crown prosecutor went forward with murder
charges against I think three of the women now, of course I can't remember.
And Christy becomes the darling of the media, which is disgusting.
Everybody's vying for his exclusive and there's something called checkbook journalism.
The newspapers in London would essentially bid on a defendant and they would then pay
for the exclusive rights.
They would pay for their defense completely and pay for the exclusive rights to their
story.
So Christy did that.
He had a full confession with the reporter and in prison, the egotism was incredible.
He had pictures of himself in his cell, which is just not who I would choose to look at,
I guess, but.
Oh, what a creep.
So he had pictures of himself.
All these women were lined up outside in the courtroom and also around the gel and he told
one of the jailers there, he pointed at his crotch and he said, they're here because of
this.
Oh, hard pass.
No, thank you.
Honey, no, honey.
So he, you know, he was finally getting the attention that he thought he deserved, which
I think, I mean, is that surprising to either of you?
Probably not.
And I think it's, yeah, lines up perfectly with not leaving with basically just kind
of being in the mix here and in feeling the renown and the fame of evil doing.
And he was kind of right in that way where it's like, and then once you're known, then
you're the name on everyone's lips.
People like that don't know the difference between positive attention and negative attention.
Then they don't care.
So it's just like, it's attention.
Yeah.
That's all that matters.
Like feed the beast.
Yeah.
It's pretty gross.
And so he was getting all of this attention.
He is, of course, quickly convicted.
He has not gotten the insanity plea at all.
Everybody thinks he's sane.
His lawyer is trying to argue otherwise and is having him confess to more and more people.
But even Christie draws a line.
And I have talked to forensic psychologists who I say, oh, these serial killers have no
morals.
And they say, they do.
They're just not our morals.
They have their own code of honor.
Yeah.
That's what I was going to say about him not killing Geraldine.
It's like, well, of course he'd kill Geraldine.
He's a murderer, but it's like, because we want to just think of these devils and we'd
be able to spot them, but it's like, yeah, they have rules to their awfulness and it's
so surprising.
And I think he has a real problem with women.
He doesn't have a problem with children.
That's a different category, kind of.
And his problem is with grown, sexually mature, independent thinking women and women who,
like men maybe, or women who have a good time in life, it's a whole different axe to grind
that he has.
So it is that kind of thing where like, yeah, I'm bad, but I don't touch children, which
is a completely different level of hell in his mind.
Right.
And that would have really gotten him pretty close to the insanity defense.
And he just said, I'm not going to do that.
He also liked animals.
You know, I don't really buy into the whole checklist of what serial killers do.
He loved animals and he loved his old, old decrepit dog so much that he actually put
him down before he went on the run.
He spent money to put the dog down, which was for him the most humane thing to do rather
than let this dog fend for itself on the street.
So yeah, different set of rules.
He's convicted.
He's sentenced to death, which is, you know, no big surprise.
And when he finally goes to the gallows, he faces the man who most people have faced
with an executioner by the last name of Pierpont.
And Christie, the last thing that happens, I'm smiling, even though I'm not supposed
to be smiling at this, but the last thing that happens is before Pierpont pulls the
lever, Christie says that he says, my nose itches and Pierpont says, it won't bother
you for long.
Holy shit.
Yes.
Wow.
That's like straight out of a movie.
That might be only funny to me.
Oh my God.
It's dark.
Oh my God.
So this causes all hell to break loose in parliament because of Timothy Evans, because
oh my gosh, did we convict the wrong man and hang the wrong man because no one could believe
two killers were living in the same house at the same time.
They do a quick little retry and still find him guilty.
Now he was found guilty of killing his wife only, Timothy Evans, not Geraldine.
They just, they had to choose one.
So they picked Burl.
I think because they thought for some reason it was going to be easier to prove.
So they still find him guilty.
And about 12 years passes when there is another reexamination of the case by a guy named Judge
Daniel Braben, and this is called the Braben Report, which is pretty interesting if you're
into super old crime depositions and such.
So he retries the whole thing.
And he comes up with, to me, the most bizarre theory, and I'm just going to say it and you
guys can just tell me what you think.
He thinks that Timothy and Christie were working together and that Timothy killed his wife and
Christie killed the little girl.
Why?
Oh, like a strangers on the train exchange of you kill my relative and I kill your relative?
I think that he believed that something happened between Tim and Burl and he killed her and
Christie was trying to be helpful because the men were sort of friendly and he knew
that the little girl was going to cry and cry without her mom because she was still
breastfeeding and also Burl was pregnant at the time.
And so Christie was trying to be helpful and killed Geraldine, which makes zero sense.
Whoever killed one killed the other.
No.
I don't believe this theory, but I think it's more likely that there were two murderers
in a building than it is that they were working together.
I do still think Christie killed little Geraldine, not because he wanted to kill kids and because
he was into that, but because that was the like a necessary thing to do after he killed
her mother.
It's interesting to hear so many different points of view because you guys have brought
up a couple of things I hadn't thought of about him being a professor.
Oh my God, A plus for us are the dropouts, get an A plus.
Again, maybe not a good professor, but yes, you could say that.
It only took us six years to get a theory, right?
Now, now let me tell you what happens when Braben makes this decision, Timothy Evans
is exonerated.
He was exonerated for killing his daughter, but not his wife.
So it's all very confusing.
This has been gone over and gone over about a million times in the UK.
Timothy Evans's family has been given money by the UK government because of a wrongful
conviction and they have maintained his innocence.
I'm not sure if his sisters are still alive, but probably about 10 years ago they were
and there was a big push for them to fully investigate this.
I don't know how they would be able to do that 70 years later, but his half sister was
given compensation because of the posthumous pardon.
Lots of books and movies.
Timothy Roth, who I love so much, plays Christie in the latest kind of BBC iteration of it.
So I will tell you, I feel fairly certain that Tim Evans killed his wife and child.
That's how I feel.
And I was pretty much the only one, I think, until I read Burl Evans's younger brother
who was 13 when she and Tim were married.
And he wrote a book and he said in the book that he would go and visit when he was 13
and that Timothy was so violent with Burl that he would have to put his hands over Geraldine's
ears just to cover it up.
And this is like a month before she was killed.
He said that Timothy was so incredibly violent and just a horrible person.
He said there is nobody in my family who believes John Christie was the one who killed her.
He had no motive.
And he said, and I think he was so drunk and so mad that he strangled Geraldine.
I mean, there's a church right around the corner, you guys.
If it were Christie, I think he would have taken her and just left her at the church.
I mean, there's no motivation for Christie to kill this little girl.
I understand Burl, but Burl's brother just said, Timothy Evans was a terrible person
and we had been afraid that this was going to happen and it happened, you know, and it
was not John Christie.
So it's a big mystery.
It's a mystery.
I mean, we don't, I don't know.
I believe it too.
I changed my mind.
Well, because that's inside information, right?
That's a person who has to sit there at the table where Evans family is like, he could
never, but then there's the witness from Burl's side of the family that's like, this
guy was a monster and an alcoholic where like, I believe it in a second.
I think that kind of witness is so credible because you're in the day to day.
So if this guy was a true monster in the day to day, then, you know, if one thing happens
or one thing goes off, like we've seen that lots of times, the, the family annihilators
that are like, I'm depressed.
This is always hard.
Here's the solution.
Let's pack this in.
Yeah.
And it's also interesting to be like, well, there's not usually two killers in one place,
but it's like, okay, one person was an outlier and that was a serial killer, but a abusive,
violent alcoholic man abusing his family is not rare.
Post war.
Post war.
Yeah.
That's not unfortunately still not rare.
What's also really weird is there was three killers cause then there's the fog happening
at the same time, like having read your book, no joke though, like that I thought your book
was about the fog.
So I was like, wow, this is fascinating.
I can't believe it.
And then when it goes into this, it's just like, oh, oh, like how did anybody deal with
anything?
Like it was, the fog was bad enough.
So I'm sure like reality was kind of defying reality for people at the time.
So it's just like, you know, it's three steps away.
It's into the fantastic, but so is the air killing you and not being able to see one
foot in front of you when you're walking down the street during the day.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's again, it's a systemic issue that we have a problem with now air pollution dealing
with.
How do we even figure this out now?
Imagine how we say in these interviews that in the fifties, the minister of health had
just declared that cigarettes were connected to, you know, cancer and addiction.
And he's sitting there chain smoking through the whole news conference.
So that is that at 85% of the city's smoke in 85% I mean, they were like little kids
smoking.
For real.
I mean, so, so, you know, I think the bottom line with this case is, of course, we're never
going to know and that's maddening to me.
I am not a big unsolved case fan.
I really like a tidy conclusion.
No one ever wants to think that a mother or a father could kill their child.
And that's what I think it made it really hard was he did seem like a good father, but
you just, you never know.
And after reading her brother's book, I just thought, man, this is, I mean, when I, when
I read he was violent, that was one thing.
But when there's a 13 year old kid sitting there frightened for his sister and then she
ends up dead, it just seems, and people just couldn't believe it.
And I totally understand that it's self protection, I think in a way to think that this is not
going to happen in our society and must be the serial killer.
But as you said, you know, this is not Bundy and Gacy living together in a condo.
This is, this is a serial killer who is living in a building just like, you know, with someone
who is an abuser, just like probably two buildings down there was somebody who was abusing his
wife.
It kind of does point to that because when you were just saying the thing about air pollution,
it's a systemic issue.
It's like, as is domestic violence, like that, that kind of thing where if there are no services,
if there's no one to call, if there's nowhere to go, then you have to stay in that apartment
and keep on going to work coming home, people drinking, people fighting, like the pressure
just keeps building and it happens a lot.
And I think because families learn to keep secrets, it's actually probably much more
common than most people know or think.
So that idea that, yes, what was happening in this house, how could it be?
And it's like, if people got real about the prevalence of domestic violence and substance
abuse and how those things are tied together and how many people actually live with it,
it wouldn't be as surprising maybe.
Well, I think, and also this really does come down to somebody like John Christie who
picked victims who were not represented well.
Now there were some of the women, the part-time sex workers he was targeting, had friends
who were looking for them, but the police didn't give a shit.
I mean, you know that.
It's the same story.
They did not care.
So they were dealing with gambling and, oh man, and Timothy Evans was a gambler too.
I mean, there was just, there was a lot of check marks for him that I think got suppressed
a little bit at trial because they were really trying to make him come off a little bit like
a dullard, a little bit like someone who was naive, who had been manipulated by Christie
into thinking something.
And so it was, it's an enduring mystery that will always be talked about, I'm sure.
I mean, it was one of the worst things to happen, certainly in that area.
And 10 Rillington Place, of course, is no longer there.
The whole street's no longer there.
They bulldozed the entire thing.
It's called Rustin Close.
Now, don't everybody go there, please, I'm sure those people need their privacy.
But it's, they had to mow down that whole area.
There was a movie that was made in the 70s that was really well known about Rillington
Place and after that movie, it was shot there and after that movie, that was it.
They just, there was too much publicity.
So there's so much that comes up into this, you know, racism from the Christie's and
poverty in that area, post-war poverty, women who have lost loved ones in the war and now
have to do things that they didn't particularly want to do in order to raise their children,
who then become victims and, you know, people who are fighting for them to be found and
the police don't pay attention and then the police are undermanned to begin with.
And there they are walking past thigh bones.
It's just, it's a nightmare.
So there's so much to me to learn from this story and it is such a sad story to see it
in different forms repeated over and over again.
The only thing I can hope is that we just continue to pick up lessons here and there
from these kinds of stories.
For sure.
So if you haven't read Death in the Air, The True Story of a Serial Killer, The Great
London Smog, and The Strangling of a City by Kate Winkler Dawson, you simply must.
And we should plug the new season of Tenfold More Wicked, which is coming up very quickly.
Do you want to talk about that for one second, Kate?
Sure.
So this will be season six.
I just can't even believe it.
It's like I'm in a six-year-old.
I just get gray hairs when every season I get more and more gray hairs.
So season six of Tenfold More Wicked is very, very close to my heart.
They all are.
But this one especially, it's about a young woman who is found dead in Aransas, past
Texas, which is next to a small town where I go to visit a lot with my family, Port Aransas.
This is a story about a town during prohibition, a very small town, about a wealthy family,
and we're trying to figure out if someone got away with murder and what happened to
this young woman, who her family believed was perfect, and it was so much pressure for
her that just something was bound to happen, and then it did.
Wow.
Amazing.
And that comes out on the 25th of April, so make sure you rate, review, subscribe, all
of those things.
Yes.
Kate, thank you so much for doing this with us.
You are an amazing story.
Thanks for having me.
That was just a delight to listen to you.
Thank you.
So I'll see you guys in like a couple weeks, maybe.
Yeah.
Start all over again.
Yes, exactly.
Thank you, Kate.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for being here.
That was awesome.
Bye.
Bye.
Elvis, do you want a cookie?
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