My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 323 - Pills & Thrills

Episode Date: April 21, 2022

On today's episode, Karen and Georgia cover the "National Forest Serial Killer" Gary Michael Hilton and the mysterious disappearance of Judy Smith.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder, that's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff.

The end. You're always going to take a sip of whatever your drink is right at that moment. Yeah, that's when I do it. Is that late night talk show? Yeah. Ways? This is me killing time during the dramatic pause after we introduced the show and then the impact of our listeners hearing.

Yeah. It really is the show that I press play on. Wow. Like, right? You just got to give them four and a half seconds. A powerful pause. Well, I... Well, you make drinking noises on a podcast.

That's how it goes. Things people hate the most on podcasts. Drinking... I don't know. Would you say you hate drinking noises more than eating noises? No. I think I hate drinking noises more. Really?

Honestly, neither of them bother me that much. Eating noises bother me more, though. Eating? Uh-huh. Something about... you know what I think it is? The swallowing sound. Oh, nobody fucking wants to hear another person's, you know... What's the word that I fucking love and hate so much when you choose something?

Mastication. Yeah. No one wants to hear that word alone gives you creepy feelings. Mastication. Mastication or a glottal, any kind of epiglottis action. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear the enzymes in your mouth. Breaking down.

Breaking things down so that your gut and the microbes in your gut can then churn them out even more, et cetera, et cetera. Not in my backyard. Not with my kids. Not in my backyard. Not in my America. No way. Not this America.

What's going on? I'm going to get comfortable, let my hair down. Well, can I tell you about that I did... I finally did the homework that I wish I'd done years ago, but it didn't exist years ago when I made the mistake. But I felt as if when I saw this on Netflix, it was my duty as a person who had fucked up the identity and switch names that I had to watch the documentary on Netflix about Jimmy Savile.

Oh, oh my God. The British entertainer slash serial, serial pedophile. And also, but actually sex pest to the max. Right. Because one of the very final lines, no spoilers. Yeah. One of the very final lines of this documentary is like just a black card comes up and it says that he sexually molested and assaulted people from ages and it was something like

seven to 75 or something horrifying. I mean, it is really bad. Yeah. I just want our listeners to know the mistake I'm talking about. I simply will never make that mistake again. Yeah. Because I know who Jimmy Savile is now. My God.

That documentary is done really well, so much so that I tried to get Vince to watch it with me and the trailer made him so creeped out and uncomfortable that he wouldn't watch it. I've watched like one episode and it's incredible. And just the whole time you're like, what the fuck? How? How? How is fucking this institutionalized, you know, allowance of people with fame and money and charisma to get away with whatever they want.

And who align themselves with do-gooders and doing good. Right. So they align themselves with charity or they align themselves with volunteerism. Princess Diana. Oh, yeah. He had the royal family. And I mean, but also didn't you find it interesting or maybe I don't know if you got this in one episode, but first of all, as you well know, I never want to hear these people talking.

I don't care. I don't want to get to know them. So then the reveal, you don't need to. Right. You already know who these people are. But it was so disturbing because he has a full life of video recording. So they just cutting back to him, talking, making excuses, making jokes. Yeah.

But like jokes that fit perfectly with how creepy he was. Of course. The like hindsight, him saying that, that he likes him young or whatever is the fucking, I mean, it's creepy to say that anyways, but the way he says it, it's like funny back then. He was our like, what? Dick Clark or something or their dick, you know, the UK's Dick Clark would say. Yes.

Not saying Dick Clark is a pedophile. Well, that's the other piece I was going to say is to be outside because you're like, it's this institution, but we aren't in that institution. So we did not know this man from childhood. He was not any kind of like stalwart entertainer in any way. So you're watching this going. Yeah. Yeah.

That guy is the worst. Anyone should have asked us over here in the second hair alone in our America, this great America, but also there was that amazing interview with the woman who was like the morning, the morning show host that he just kept disgustingly and aggressively making passes at and doing weird shit with that she had to agree with. He knew she had to agree. She had to yes and him and it's just man. Yeah.

It's quite something of like people like to talk about the reactivity of a PC culture, blah, blah, blah. It's like, let's look back on this was merely the 80s. It wasn't. It was 1920s fucking relatively recently and it was this bad. I mean, y'all who are like, we have some sins to atone for. So if we take a severe right turn and over correct, then it's well deserved and shut the fuck up and let it happen because yes, we need to prove to like children that we

won't just let anyone come on up and babysit them or oh, hi blossom. Yeah. We have somebody coming on up. Excuse me. We're talking about pedophilia in England. Stop it. Blossom. Do better.

Blossom. Hey, bestie. Oof. That's what I have to say to blossom. Okay. Yeah. So the Jimmy Savile documentary on Netflix. Yeah.

It's incredible. Watch it, but it's really awful. Don't watch it if you're feeling anything other than ready to fight because it's just also it's not satisfying. It's in that way where because it dies before spoiler. Blossom really happens and it just all kind of points toward, yeah, because he was too powerful. No one could even imagine.

And also I've watched other. It wasn't a full documentary. I don't think, but I've seen other shows on him and it was that went further into how he had like places set up for him to just go and molest like he had a systems worked out all over that country where he was, that's all he did. That's what he did. It's really, really upsetting. They didn't really go that far into that how extensive it was except for those cards.

Speaking of true crime documentaries, have you seen the invisible pilot? It's on Apple Plus. No. It's only like one or two episodes right now, but it's so good. It takes place like in the 70s, this rough and tumble pilot, like teach them yourself, you know, down homey pilot drives one of those cars that are a car, but it's got the truck back on it. Is that a Camaro?

What is that? A Subaru brat? No, but you know, the ones that are like, yes, but the ones that are like big and long and famous El Camino and El Camino, like he's that guy. So he, he's this like outlaw. It's basically, and here's my theory is that he is that he is DB Cooper. Like it's this great story of this outlaw pilot guy who I swear to God, like it could be DB Cooper's like origin story if they want it to be, but it's not really good.

The invisible pilot. Yeah. How was it a true crime thing? Because I can't get too much away, but he basically becomes like the biggest drug smuggling pilot. Oh, it's also cocaine bears origin story. It could be like, it could be like all of those things. Oh, yes.

Okay. Okay. I mean, it is kind of in that far pre 9-11 world. There were so little regulations that I mean, that's a big part of catch me if you can, where he just would dress up like a pilot and then anything goes or he was a pilot. I can't remember, but it was just like, yeah, he could take suitcases of drugs or money or whatever onto planes and fly him around. It's also back at a time where like you could just take up like a piece, like a, you know,

open up a Coke can and put some needle and thread in it and there's your ID and it's totally legal. And like, it could just disappear and how do you mean, I don't know, you could just make up a new ID out of anything. And people would be like, yep, that's your legal ID. He says, this is who I am now. Anyone believes it. I'm like, did this happen?

I go tan with the little thread. I'm just trying to think of it like, oh, like arts and crafts, you're saying. Yeah. You do arts and crafts to make up like a legit identification of who you are and what you're doing and why you just say, oh, this is this is my license. I'm from Hawaii or some state that that person's not in that it's like, oh, yeah, it's a little different than yours. But yeah, they print ideas on pineapple in Hawaii.

Here you go. It's my coconut ID. Okay. That's a good one. Oh, also, well, I let this roll right in because I was having a lazy day in here in LA, gentle listener. It was hot, like boiling hot over the weekend and then all of a sudden now it's cold, but it happened so fast that I was like sitting at the table, like working on my story and

I had a short sleeve shirt on and I was like, got into a bad mode. And then I was like, oh, I'm just cold. It's like freezing. I'm sitting in my house freezing with the sliding glass door open. Yeah. But I let the Jimmy Savile documentary roll over into another series that actually has been recommended to me by a bunch of people called Worst Roommate Ever and the first episodes about Dorothy Appuente.

Yeah. I haven't seen it yet. It's really well made. It's really well done. I mean, it's tough these days because now there's one million. I mean, obviously the production of true crime documentaries is like going like gangbusters. But this one's made really well. It's shot really well.

It's edited really interestingly, but heartbreakingly it made me realize because now they have like satellite shots of the neighborhood that I used to live in that she used to live in where the house was and she wasn't two doors down. But you always thought she was like two doors down from you. That's what we were told when we lived there and we could see into the backyard and it was this whole thing. Well, when I looked at this satellite image, she lived in a house like basically is one street down.

We were basically kind of parallel to her, but not on the same street. I've bragged so much about it. I'm sorry. You've now lost all credibility in the true crime community. I'd like to apologize for a listener. I'd like to apologize. It's hate mail to my favorite murder at GMO. You know, it's so funny about like that.

That documentary sounds great, but I was talking to our friend Bananas Scotty Landis at a party recently about how all true crime documentaries are about people swindling people. It's about murder sometimes, but mostly it's about like the Tinder swindler and this pilot, you know, who did all this crazy swindling lately, a lot of that. Yeah, and even like, even Jimmy Saville, it's like, or Saville, it's like swindling people. It's like really the name of the game these days. Right.

Because I think, which is the same as this show or any true crime is like, we want to talk about who does stuff like this and talk about what they're like so that you could recognize that type of person if they come into your life. Right. Vince just walked in the room the moment you said that, hi, can you close the door just a little bit? Thank you. You can recognize them as they come into your life and then Vince walks in.

It's like the biggest, like she should have known. Karen told her right when he walked in the door that the fateful, uh, yeah, totally. That's all we want is to be able to have like goggles, like swindler goggles on. I mean, to me, it's just don't be so impressed by rich people or private planes. It's not that big of a deal. It's not that big of a deal. What we've been trying, if we have not been trying to do anything the past six years, it's that.

And really it's like in the Tender Swindler and you didn't really watch it, right? No, I watched it. Yeah. Oh, well, what I loved was that those women, they like swiped whatever the right to correct direction is on Tinder for him. And then immediately it was just like, look at his Hermes belt, his Gucci blouse, right? He must be successful, right? And then there he's like, I want to take you to a different country on a private plane.

And they're like, I think he's the one. And it's like, well, how about you unpack your reasons for why that would matter so much to you? I think unpacking the reason you're 27 is the biggest deal because I feel like a lot of us 40, 50 something year olds would be like, I don't like him. Right. And any Hermes fucking belt can be faked with a tin can and some fucking thread. And someone knows that when you're over 40.

It can be your ID and your bell buckle. I just think that guy was so unappealing, truly so unappealing. And also guy you're trying to date who calls you honey, it's like that's four red flags by itself. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to victim shame because we've all been, you know, we've all been on some level pulled into like, you know, some charming person. Oh, please.

Some of us have married them. I'm not. Wait, let's see what it is. Okay. Then vent storms into the door and start screaming. I'm blushing. Okay. Go on.

I'm not judging the victims. Also you get to like what you like. So, you know, like you can't help it if you're attracted to somebody because you didn't have money growing up and suddenly they're like, I can pay for anything. That's a huge relief and it's an attraction, whatever. Also, you know, like if you had a grammar school teacher who had a big curly hair and a big thick mustache, you might like those people. Like you, we can't really control those.

What are you saying? Well, Mr. Safflu is kind of hot. No. It sounds like a Bob at the Bob, what's Bob from Bob's Burgers, Bob Belcher. No, what's the Bob, the painter guy, Bob Ross, Bob Ross, he's actually the perfect combination of those two men. But I'm just saying you can't help who you're initially attracted to, but you can have better standards than just money and like assholes that spend money like to be showy because

it's never a good sign. Yeah. A hundred percent. In my opinion. You got to get those people that are like hiding their money in the couch cushion and they're just like, I don't want to go to the drive-in, you're just like, this guy. And then you find out he's a billionaire. Oh my God, happily ever after.

Let's see, I have to reiterate speaking of TV shows. I talked about this a couple of weeks ago, but I just finished the season this past week, the last episode aired, the fucking show Severance on HBO is one of the best like seasons of a show I've seen. And I found out that. Hold on one second. Ben Stiller. John Chaturro.

Adam Scott. Well, Ben Stiller is a producer. He's not even in it. I thought he was the director. That's what I meant. It's a different thing. Britt Lower, who's so good, who was in Man Seeking Woman, she was a sister, but it was created by Dan Erickson.

And when I talked about it last time on the podcast, Hannah Creight and her producer texted me and was like, we went to college together. It's his first show. And I am below. It is so good. The last episode was like one of the best season ending episodes I've seen. Like I can't fucking recommend it enough. It's sci-fi.

It's creepy. The finale. You're looking for the word season finale. What did I say? That's what I meant. What did I say? Series ending? Series ending.

Sure. End. I've heard tons of people talking about it. I am in the second episode now. Okay. And I'm getting it. And I'm also trying to stay away from people talking in detail about it. Yeah.

Don't. Right? Don't. Yeah. It's creepy. That's good. It gets, oh my God. Watch.

Yeah. It got reneged. So great. Yeah. Oh, good. Good. Good. Good.

It made me the first episode with the low ceilings and fluorescent lights. Yeah. Made me at first begin to walk down the, when I worked in offices and seemed like I was never going to not have to work in offices, jobs, depression. And then I snapped myself out by going, you don't do that anymore. You're very lucky. And you get to not do that anymore. So I really renewed my super gratitude for podcasting.

You never get past it though. Like you never get past. And I still don't either. Like every time I lay down for a nap during the day now, even though it's been 11 years since I had to have a desk job, but I used to take naps under my desk when it was quiet because I was so tired. And I said to myself, if I ever don't have to work at, you know, nine to five, every nap I take, I will appreciate.

And still to this fucking day, every time I lay down for a nap, I just go, yay. Yeah. You did it. Yes. And it can be done. You don't need a college degree. You don't need a ton of things apparently, according to me in Georgia. There's many things you can lack and still get there.

Right. Just a little hutzpah and a friend. Good idea. And some other people who also like the thing you like. Right. That's it. Yeah. It's that easy.

Oh. Speaking of Game of Thrones. I think that other people like your new podcast, your new Game of Thrones podcast, the Game of Thrones update. It's been a while. I am no longer interested in Game of Thrones. Oh. I got to season six, okay.

Almost. I can't. No, I won't. No, I won't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I can't care anymore. It's just got so boring. What do you remember one of the last things that happened? Aria Stark isn't Aria Stark anymore. She's in the place where she has to not have a face or a name or whatever. Yeah. Buck and Jon Snow set off into the, you know, deep wide, wondrous world. And then, you know, what's your face got?

Her hair cut off. All short. I don't know. It's just not bad. I stopped caring about it. Didn't you like the shame walk? Shame. Shame.

No, that's so gross. It was great. It was an amazing scene, but it was gross. Let me ask you one question. Okay. And I need this to be, it's a fine if it's a spoiler. I just want to know. And if the answer is yes, I will continue.

Okay. Does the hound come back? Shit. No. Then I'm not interested. She left him when he was dying, not dead. So I was like, okay, maybe he'll come back because he was like my favorite. That duo there was great.

I don't know why I'm talking about this. Like I fucking, first of all, the reason I think I know is because Rory McCann is the actor who plays the hound. You know him. And he was in the British show. So I will always brag. I will always take five seconds to say I know Rory McCann, which I love, which is why I'm asking him.

Like you're his friend. Did he ever call you and say, Hey, guess what? I'm going to be back. I don't know. Well, we weren't calling friends. Exactly. I know. I literally would have to go, Karen, I was in a show with you.

No. Yeah, but I watched like, I would say in the beginning 70% because Rory McCann was in it. I was like, this is the greatest and he deserves it. But I, I honestly think he didn't come back, but I can't remember because a lot of stuff happens at the end and I'm not sure where you are. Yeah. Brienne of Tarth started to get on my nerves a little bit. All right.

Oh, too tall. Okay. I loved that she was in love with, I love that they kind of were in love with each other and not meant to be. That was a really great storyline, but then it fell apart and he became an asshole again. Like he thought he was going to start to be like good and soft and then he's like, Nope, still going to fuck my sister. Like it just, I didn't, it stopped giving me gifts and you know, everyone says when

something stops giving you gifts, it's time to walk away. So now I'm reading the self-help book, giving me gifts. Oh my God. Speaking of, did you watch Lizzo's watch out for the big girls? I have not yet. It'll make me cry too much. Oh, I watched it in a weekend. I cried the whole time.

I feel so much better about myself and the world. It was incredible. It's incredible. She's the greatest. She's the greatest. Every woman on that show who was auditioning to be, you know, her big girl dancers, like the best fucking people. I followed them all on Instagram now.

Maybe I want to be a dancer. I don't know. Sure. Which is impossible. It's not too late. It's not too late. Yeah. Also, as two people who went and watched Lizzo live at the Palladium, way back when, that

show was constant dancing. I was just like, how is she doing all this dancing and singing with, without even like gasping once? No, I mean, I would be on the floor crying. God, that was such a good show. Yeah. And her backup dancers, every single one of them was like this dynamic could stand on their own and just still steal the fucking show, like all of them.

And so these, these women on the show are auditioning, but it's not like a reality show where like every episode someone gets kicked off and cries and stuff. It's not like that. Like the point isn't to get kicked off. Oh, oh, oh, that's good. It's like really feel goody. One girl gets sent home because she's not getting along with the other girls and she's kind of like not cool.

Like that's the kind of show it is. Yeah. It's really positive, uplifting. Yeah. I'm going to have to put some time aside. That's almost like special viewing where I'm like, can I cry? Do I have somewhere to go? Can my eyes be this swollen?

Yeah. Because I know I love it and I do love dance. Oh, you are a creature of the dogs. You know me and my dance. You know, it's actually funny as Jacob Tierney of Letter Kenny was in town and we started watching. Of course, I tried to put in e-dating and that's like, I did it. Like pilot documentary when I tried to find the one about the pilot.

That's right. Nope. Nothing came up. You need so many more search terms these days. Oh, okay. So we started watching this show called Dating No Filter and I just have to say we were binging it. It's so funny.

So two comics sitting or talent from E or whatever are sitting on a couch watching people go on blind dates. But so it has a little bit of that. What was that show? Bustry Science Theater? Blind date. Oh, blind date. Got it.

Remember the 90s show Blind Date? Yeah. I loved it. My ex-boyfriend was on that. So it has that vibe, but these are much more produced dates. Yeah. They're kind of crazy. It's like crazy shit.

But these people they have on there are so funny. All of them are genuinely conversationally funny. Nice. They're not reading off of prompters. Yeah. They're genuinely riffing. Nice. And I was like having written on a bunch of e-pilots and a bunch of stuff for that channel.

Uh-huh. That was not good. I was like, oh my God, they've cracked it. Like dating no filter. So if you're sitting around and you just need to binge funny reality dating silliness, dating no filter on E is a genuinely hilarious show with like, it made me feel good about the comedians of tomorrow. There's so many good comics on it.

Nice. I love it. Yeah. Great. Right? Okay. That's enough recommendations. Okay.

Here's exactly right corner. The corner dedicated to the podcast network that we have called Exactly Right Media. And there's so much going on in Exactly Right Media and on that network. The lead story lately is that our banana boys, Scotty Landis and Kurt Bronner, have booked a guest for the Bananas Weird News podcast that might just blow your mind. Charlize Theron is going to be on their podcast. You know, the up and coming actress Charlize Theron. You know, the young hopeful Charlize Theron.

She's on their podcast. It's so cool. They told us that I was like, oh my God, I can't believe it. Oh my God. What a get. I mean, what a get. On Parent Footprint with Dr. Dan, the incredible parenting podcast that also you don't need to be a parent for.

It also was like helpful for me and my inner child. Dr. Dan had Maisha T on and the episodes called Check Your Privilege and she's the founder of Check Your Privilege and they talk about awareness of unconscious bias and educate parents on families and parenting. It's really important. That's great. Well, also, if you just want some straight up comedy, you can go back over to I Said No Gifts because this week, Bridger's guest is comedian River Butcher and he's hilarious.

I've known him for a long time. Really good comedian and that shows still killing it. It just won't quit. He tried so hard to make him quit and he just refuses. He will not. He will quit. He's got a contract. So what are we going to do?

That's right. He can't quit. Also, if you've always wanted to become a member of the fan cult and we know you probably maybe have, we are excited to let you know that our 2022 exclusive membership gifts have launched for new and renewing members. So every time you join the fan cult or renew for the next year, there's a new like little gift set that we pass out and this one is really freaking cool. We like put a lot of thought into it.

We make sure it's something you can't just get randomly on the store. So go to our website, myfavoritmurder.com to see that exciting stuff and all the merch we have there. And then just to round it out, you may or may not know that April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month. So we just want to tell you really quickly about the Sexual Violence Prevention Association, the SVPA. They're a survivor led nonprofit that prevents sexual violence systemically by revolutionizing

policy research and institutions. And they advocate for legislation to prevent sexual violence. They also do a lot of work with colleges and universities and workplaces to improve practices to prevent sexual violence. So if you're interested in donating to SVPA, visit the exactly right website and or you can follow them on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at SVPA official. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping and prepping handled, HelloFresh has you covered.

HelloFresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. HelloFresh meals are convenient, seasonal and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy HelloFresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes and amazing desserts. Karen January is going to be my month for HelloFresh.

I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since like early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and HelloFresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. Also get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca

slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candice DeLong and on my new podcast Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent and criminal profiler.

On Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton serial killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast, Killer Psyche Daily, in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today.

Georgia, this week I'm going to go classic serial killer story and he's one not a lot of people have heard about, I don't think, although, well, I'll just start to tell you about it. But it's a fascinating area and the reason that I first picked him is because he is called the National Forest Serial Killer. His name is Gary Hilton. Do you know that our stories have a connection this week for like the first time ever? For the first time, Hannah called me and she was just like, this happened and it happened

accidentally. I swear to God, I could not do this on purpose. She was like, it'll be okay if we do it this way and this way and this way and it'll happen and it'll be great. I'll be like, I could do a different story. She's like, no, this will be great. Yeah. Well, there's just this weird overlap that like, especially for a serial killer that

isn't famous and isn't well known, except for once I was reading through this, I was like, oh, actually, there's some pretty well known things that have come out of this. It's strange. Okay. So let me just tell you about it. It starts New Year's Day 2008 and we're in Georgia and a 24 year old woman named Meredith Emerson decides to go hiking with her dog Ella on the Freeman Trail in Vogel State Park, which is in Georgia's Chattahoochee National Forest.

But neither Meredith, who is very athletic, she's an avid hiker, she was also trained in martial arts or her dog Ella come back home like within her normal time. This is something she did all the time. She hiked a lot. She's very outdoorsy. So the next day when she didn't make it back, all her friends know something is very wrong. They go to the park to go look for her, but they have no luck. And once they report this to the authorities, everyone's really concerned because it's New

Year's Day or now it's the January 2nd and at that time of year, the nighttime temperatures go below zero. Anyone who may have gotten lost or injured on the trail that she took could possibly get hypothermia. But her friends and family are actually more worried because they know she wouldn't get lost and she probably wouldn't get injured that something must have happened to her. So when the police get the statements from the witnesses who were at the park that day that Meredith was there, many of them say they saw a silver-haired older man who also

had a dog following Meredith and her dog on the Freeman trail. When they finally start the search of the park to try to find Meredith, over 100 volunteers come. They say in the local paper that it was like they'd never seen a turnout like that before. But the police hold those volunteers back because they want to search the park with a thermal detector so that they can actually see and they don't want people walking everywhere. They want to see if they can see if someone's out and lost. So when volunteers finally are able to walk the trail and it's a six-mile trail, they end

up finding Meredith's water bottle, her sunglasses, Ella's leash, and an extendable police baton. Oh no. Yeah. Authorities are then alerted that Meredith's ATM card is being used at banks miles away from where she was last seen. So based on other unsolved murders in Georgia and Florida, a lot of people believe that there could be a serial killer operating in the national parks of both states. And authorities in North Carolina actually start watching the news about Meredith's disappearance.

So they go wide with this description of the silver-haired man, and it's all on the news. And the authorities in North Carolina are like, oh, this is interesting because they've recently had a case where an elderly couple who loved hiking also disappeared from a national park. And this couple was last seen talking to a man with silver hair who was wearing a yellow jacket. So police end up running the tags on a car that was in the parking lot that had been seen that day, and they discover that it's registered to 61-year-old Gary Hilton.

Gary Hilton is a bearded silver-haired man known for his violent temper, and he's also known to often take his dog Dandy on walks through the forest. So only one day after investigators identify Gary Hilton as a person of interest in Meredith's disappearance, her dog Ella is found alive. She just walked into a grocery store, and that grocery store was 60 miles away from where Meredith was last seen. Holy shit. Yeah.

So now Ella is safely returned to the Emerson family, but there's, of course, still no sign of Meredith. And police start looking into the background of Gary Hilton. So Gary was born on November 22nd, 1946 in Atlanta, Georgia. His parents, William Hilton and Cleo Reynolds, actually did not have a happy marriage. Gary never meets his biological father, partly because his father's away serving in the military when he's actually born. And then soon after that, Cleo, his mother, discovers that her husband has three other

wives. Holy shit. Yeah. So Cleo leaves her husband. She takes baby Gary, baby Gary, and she goes to work selling window coverings, which involves a lot of traveling. She has to leave Gary with friends. And then she finally just starts taking him with her and they just, they don't have like

a permanent home. He doesn't go to one school. They just travel all over while she works. But when he's a kid, apparently Gary is very good. He's a good kid. He's very, very intelligent. But when he's around eight years old, classic. Like this is actually following the classic.

Yeah. Because also remember the Golden State Killers father had multiple families. Yeah. Who was also in the military. Totally. There's some weird parallels. When Gary's eight years old, he gets hit on the head so hard. And now if you're squeamish, you're not going to like this next part.

He's partially scout. Holy shit. He ends up having yet 200 stitches on his head. Oh my God. An eight year old. An eight year old. So then following this, Cleo notices that he's becoming more hyperactive and more impulsive and he has difficulty focusing.

So it is classic hit in the head. Classic. The old triangle. Someone's triangle of some. The dark triad. It's the dark triad of head injury, wedding the bed, things on fire, killing animals. Yeah. A triangle.

You know, a triangle of what sounds like five things. Okay. So in 1953, Gary's mother marries an Argentinian horse trainer named Nylo Debag and they settle in Tampa, Florida. But as great as it sounds to have an Argentinian horse trainer as your dad. This guy has a temper. He's overly strict with Gary in a way that Cleo isn't. I mean, this new man resents their close mother-son relationship.

The marriage is fraught with conflict and in 1958, the family moves to Hialeah, Florida. The tension builds over the next six years. And then in 1959, 13 year old Gary shoots his stepfather. Oh, yeah. Nylo is only wounded and he actually declines to press charges against his stepson. Gary is sent for several months of inpatient psychiatric care followed by a period in foster care before returning home to attend Miami Springs Junior High School. So he's still a child basically.

Then when Gary's in his mid teens, his mom sends him to live with family friends for a couple years. And then when he gets back, he reports his mother being cold and distant. Now Gary's failing miserably at school. He has a short fuse, clearly. He's having problems. So in 1964, 17 year old Gary drops out of high school. He enlists in the U.S. Army, completes airborne training and gets his GED.

He's stationed in Germany and he's in, I read an article about this weird, he was in this like group that was doing stuff with nuclear bombs and very high pressure, very kind of scary, a scary reality to be in. And it's around this time that Gary starts hearing voices and he basically ends up having a full schizophrenic breakdown, essentially. They honorably discharge him in 1967. And when he returns to the United States, he comes back with his new German wife. Her name's Ursula, but their marriage falls apart in a couple years.

In 1969, 22 year old Gary marries a woman named Sue, but they divorce in 71. He gets his chauffeur license in 1970. He's going to be a chauffeur. Everything's great. He's resetting. He's realigning. He's manifesting his destiny. But then in January of 1973, he gets a DOI.

He loses his license for a year and he never reapplies. So he's off. In 1977, Gary marries what would be his third wife, Dina Ba, who divorces him a year later. In March of 79, he tries for number four, marrying a woman named Betty Sue Galloway. She divorces him seven months later. So they're lasting shorter and shorter periods. He's actually a on paper, technically good looking man. Oh, okay.

But his temper just probably immediately fucking comes, shows up and yeah. And drinking and sounds like there's lots of other kind of coping mechanisms. So then in the 80s, Gary begins his life of crime, consistent crime. He's arrested in 1982 and charged with arson. There's your dark triad. Hey, what's up? What's up? But he manages to avoid a conviction, which is interesting.

Then he gets convicted of drug possession, carrying a firearm without a license. In 1987, he's arrested and pleads guilty for theft and possessing marijuana. In 1994, he's charged with and pleads guilty to 21 counts of phone solicitation. What does that mean? Hey. Ring ring. Hello. Hey.

Hey, wanna hang out? Hey, wanna hang out and stuff? No, I'm a cop and you're under arrest. You're under arrest. Citizens arrest. Yeah. I don't know what he was doing. This crime spree continues through the 90s.

He's arrested and pleads guilty to theft and gets 10 years probation in late 1995. No one's looking at the record. I don't know. I don't know how they're making these decisions. He also gets involved around this time in 1995. He becomes the quote, creative consultant, which is a very interesting angle on a locally produced low budget movie called Deadly Run. Now, listen to this movie plot.

It's about a man who abducts women and flies them out to a cabin in a remote area where he releases his victims in the forest so he can hunt them down. You did that story? Yes. That's the butcher baker. Holy shit. In Alaska. So this serial killer worked on a movie that stole the plot line, which, oh, I didn't look

it up, but I don't know, if 95, it had already all been processed, but who's that director that was like, hey, you know who I need to creatively consult on this? Yeah. You know who knows a lot about murder and torture? Being a creep in the forest. So after this era, Gary starts drifting from place to place and job to job until around 97, where he finally finds steady work with an insulation and siding business in Atlanta. And he stays there for the next 10 years, mostly because his boss, a man named John

Tabor, also gives him a place to live. So I think he is finally able to settle down a little bit, but he has problem with anger and it comes up all the time. In 2004, the police are called after a man sees him savagely beating a dog in a public park. And it turns out it is his dog, Dandy, the one who he is known for enjoying taking on walks in the forest. Dandy.

In 2005, he abandons a van on federal land in White County, Georgia, and doesn't answer a citation for the offense. So a warrant is issued for his arrest in the federal database. And then in 2007, things sour between Gary and his boss, John Tabor, when Gary threatens to kill John if he doesn't pay him $10,000. So Gary then finds himself not only unemployed, but homeless, and he now begins to live out of his van. And this brings us to 2007.

So now we're going to go to three months before Meredith disappears. She disappears on New Year's Day of 2008. Three months before that, on October 21st, 2007, a retired couple named John and Irene Bryant, who are both in their 80s, they decide to go for a hike in the Piska National Forest. The Bryant's have been married for over 50 years. They live in Horseshoe, North Carolina, and they love to go hiking together. On October 21st, they park their maroon Ford Escape SUV at Yellow Gap Road near Route 276, and they never make it back to their vehicle.

So when two weeks pass without any word from the couple, their family reports them missing. Henderson County Sheriff's Office immediately launches a search that includes a helicopter and cadaver dogs, and as law enforcement combs the Bryant's phone records, a devastating detail emerges. On the last day, the couple is known to be alive, seen alive. Irene attempts to call 9-1-1 around 4 p.m. from her cell phone, but due to the weak signal in the forest, the call drops and no further calls are made. Oh my God, that's terrifying.

Horrifying. So almost a week after the Bryant's are reported missing, searchers on the Barnett Branch Trail of the forest find the partially clad body of a woman covered in leaves. Due to the state of decomposition, they can't tell immediately if it's Irene. Three days later, an autopsy is conducted, and Irene's identity is confirmed. As is her cause of death, she has sustained a fractured skull from blunt force trauma. She's been bludgeoned to death. Her body's only 30 yards away from the couple's vehicle.

John is still missing, her husband John, and the police fear for his welfare, of course. Since national forests are classified as federal land, the FBI is immediately called in to this investigation. They announce a $10,000 reward for any information leading to Irene's killer. And meanwhile, investigators monitoring the Bryant's bank accounts find that the day after the couple disappeared, their ATM card was used to withdraw $300 from an ATM in Duck Town, Tennessee. So when law enforcement checks the ATM, like the footage around the ATM, they can see this

person making the withdrawal is an older Caucasian man, but his face is obstructed by the hood of his rain jacket. They can't identify him, and the case goes cold. So a little over a month after John and Irene Bryant go missing, on December 1st, 2007, so the month before Meredith, a 46-year-old Crawfordville Florida nurse named Cheryl Dunlap, her friends called her Sherry, fails to show up to a dinner date with a friend, and the next day she misses church. When Cheryl doesn't call or reach out in any way to explain why she wasn't in either of

these places, her friends get really worried that this is nothing, like that is absolutely not her character at all, and they report her missing. Her white Toyota Camry is found abandoned with a flat tire near the entrance to the Appalachicola National Forest. Upon further inspection, the authorities see that tire had been slashed. So witnesses report seeing Cheryl reading a book on the boardwalk in the Leon Sinks area of the Appalachicola Forest, and a search party is organized, but no one can find even a sign of Cheryl.

Meanwhile, police detect that her ATM card is being used to make withdrawals in Tallahassee, Florida. The person making the withdrawals is wearing a rubber mask to obscure his face, or fine. Then two weeks after that, on December 15th, a hunter named Ronnie Rents is out in the same national forest where Cheryl was, and he finds what he thinks could be a partially eaten animal carcass. But sadly, upon closer inspection, he sees that it's the decomposing body of a woman, and she's been decapitated, and she's missing her hands.

Ah, yes. So Ronnie immediately reports this to state law enforcement. Just like with Irene Bryant, authorities have to conduct an autopsy to confirm the victim's identity, and when DNA results come back, the body is identified as Cheryl Dunlap. The decapitation and removal of her hands were determined to have occurred post-mortem mercifully. Yeah. Yeah.

Finally, there's a lead. Investigators announced that they're looking for a white van seen in the area around the time Cheryl disappeared, and the driver could be the same person who used Cheryl's ATM card numerous times in Tallahassee, withdrawing $700 from her bank account. So tips start to come in over the next few days with members of the public reporting a man with a dog who seems to be homeless driving a 2001 Chevy Astro Van. Despite this information, no solid suspect is ever identified, and the authorities assume that this is just a one-off homicide.

So then we're basically back up to the date of Meredith Emerson going missing on New Year's Day 2008. Her car is found on January 5th, and two days later, the silver-haired man's description is released to the public. So Gary's former boss, John Tabor, tips off the police that Gary Hilton could be the man that they're looking for because Gary had just called John and asked him for money, which basically confirmed his suspicions that he was on the run and desperate. Can I say, I wonder if Meredith ran into him beating up his dog like he had done in that

park that one time and tried to stop him, or if he used his dog as a way to be like, look, I'm friendly. We both have dogs. Yep. It's just like, if she's hikes all the time, she's probably aware of her surroundings. So it'd be like, you know, tricked into being calm with someone. I mean, it's just so sinister. I think that's a really good point that you would assume a person with a dog is a better

person than your average wandering single man. Yeah. I think that's true. When I walk Cookie, I don't talk to anyone unless they have a dog and Cookie's like, I want to meet that dog and then we chat, you know, it's, but I wouldn't do that with just dude fucking walking by. No way. No way.

Like, hey, you want to chat? No. Yeah. Okay. So right after John Tabor calls and is like, I think this is the name of your guy. You should look it up. Yeah. You should get a call saying that Gary has been that basically the man that's whose description

just went out has been seen at a gas station in coming Georgia, cleaning his van and throwing items out of the van into a dumpster. So someone basically called and said, Hey, that guy you're looking for is basically throwing away all the evidence. Oh, my God. So they, they did lights and sirens. They raced down. Hilton couldn't get away and they arrest him for kidnapping at this gas station.

So inside the dumpster, they find Meredith's wallet, her driver's license, a student ID card, a bloodstained seatbelt, Meredith's bloody clothes, a knife and a sheath, hiking boots, chains, a padlock, gloves, a jacket. It is like a kill kit and a shit ton of evidence absolutely. And it's all just right there in this dumpster. It's like he collected it for them and then was like, yeah, here you go. I'm going to stick it all in this one spot. Yeah.

And there's also a folding police baton and a blue backpack. In a forensic search of Gary's van, crime scene technicians noticed the vehicle is missing a rear seat belt while the other belts in the car are an exact match to the bloody one that was found in the dumpster. So he was trying to get her DNA out of the van. They're also able to match blood from his astro to Meredith's DNA. Items seized from Gary's van also have traces of Cheryl Dunlap's DNA, including two sleeping bags, Gary's duffel bag and his hiking boot shoelaces.

So four days later on January 9th, investigators find what they believe to be the charred remains of Cheryl Dunlap's head and hands in a fire pit at a campsite seven miles from where her body had been found. Oh my God. Yes. There are cigarette butts at that site that will later be identified to have Gary's DNA on them. So basically, very quickly, they're able to link him to these murders.

These horrifying, like horrifying murders. Were they sexually motivated? Were they just for robbery? I mean, it's just mind-boggling. He raped Meredith. Nothing was said about that, about Cheryl Dunlap, but he, well, I'll tell you all about it. The search parties are still combing the National Forest for Meredith.

They don't know. So now that they have, it's all just basically happened at once. So now the police know it's time they have to get a confession from Gary and they basically just go in and say, we have all this evidence, like it's over. And so Gary Hilton agrees to plead guilty to the murder of Meredith Emerson and to reveal the location of her body on the condition that the DA takes the death penalty off the table. Investigators make that deal, and Gary leads authorities to the Dawson Forest where they

find Meredith's decapitated remains covered by leaves and branches more than 50 miles away from where she went missing. Bye-bye. Gary tells investigators that he ambushed Meredith on the hiking trail with a knife, and he kidnapped her to steal her credit cards. He kept her alive in his van for four days, during which time he raped her repeatedly. Every time he asked, she gave him the wrong pin number to her bank account, and eventually he bludgeoned her in the head with an iron bar.

He strips her body and douses it with bleach. The autopsy concludes that Meredith was decapitated post-mortem, like Cheryl, with a serrated knife in an attempt to prevent her from being identified. Gary then put her head in a bag and hid it nearby. He tells police that he couldn't bring himself to kill Meredith's dog. Oh my God. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Right?

He also testified that she fought fiercely for her life. And he also testified he was a piece of shit. We testified that he... Yeah. It's just like, it's that kind of thing where it's just so extreme. Totally. This is the difference between someone with a mental illness who snaps, quote, unquote, and a serial killer who has an MO and a plan and a way they do things and all kinds of...

The reason is not credit cards. The reason is not credit cards. Right. Or even rape, really. It almost just seems like this need to dominate and murder. And then it's this weird like, you can go like, well, there's psychopath and it's like, but he won't kill the dog. It's like, there's just a way...

That's a thing that we'll never be able to understand. Right. And grasp. I think fucking God. Yeah. So on February 1st, 2008, Gary pleads guilty to Meredith's murder and his sentence to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 30 years. No, don't do that.

His parents give emotional statements to the court saying, quote, no punishment for Mr. Hilton is too great. He should stay alive and slowly rot. There is no such thing as justice in this case. Nothing will bring our daughter back. Yeah. Two days later on February 3rd, a hunter named Mark Waldrop is out in the Natahala National Forest in North Carolina.

Mark is hunting just off the Forest Service Road when he comes across a human skull. He immediately calls the local deputy who arrives on scene and the two men search the immediate area. About 20 yards from where Mark finds the skull lies a human pelvis and spine. The remains are sent for testing and two days later, they're confirmed as belonging to John Bryant, who had been missing for almost four months. He died from a gunshot wound to the head. John's remains are found more than two hours away from his wife Irene's body.

In March 2008, Gary pleads not guilty to the December 2007 murder of Cheryl Dunlop and is remanded in Florida awaiting trial. So basically this all kind of rolls out one on top of the other. It's very convoluted and all of the getting moved to different states to face different charges, it basically makes everything take forever. So if normally, you know, he would be charged with this and then the trial would happen in three months. It doesn't work that way because there's so much red tape and also he's doing these

plea deals to not get the death penalty, but then there's some states where you just get the death penalty. Right. There's no plea deal to be had. Those plea deals probably take back and forth for months and months themselves and everything. I think, I mean, I don't know why we would ever just kind of like hold forth on the legal timeline of our podcast and we sound right. Oh, that's true.

Okay. So now that they have Gary Hilton in custody, they're starting to realize that he could be responsible for many other unsolved murders that have similar emos. There are profilers that come from all across the country to go and sit in all of these trials and these court proceedings so that they can see if they can talk to Gary and see if they can get him to talk about anything. Because the odds that Gary began kidnapping, raping and killing people that he just found in the forest when he was 61 years old are incredibly small.

In fact, it's much more likely that since his petty crime spree in the 80s that built into the 90s, he had just been escalating for years and years and years. And of course, there are plenty of cold cases and or just a never reported cases out there. Authorities find that there are at least four other missing or murder cases that very closely match Gary Hilton's MO. In September of 2009, Hiker in the Chattahoochee National Forest finds camping equipment believed to be Gary's. They turn it over to the authorities in Florida who are still prepping their case against him for Sheryl Dunlap's murder.

And in February of 2010, I've heard this story before, but I didn't realize it was attached to this case. A reporter and a crime writer named Fred Rosen, he wrote the book Lobster Boy About Grady Styles who we covered on this show. So he submits a formal request to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation to access Meredith Emerson's crime scene and autopsy photos, which obviously have not been released to the public. So basically, Fred Rosen had been following Gary Hilton and had been researching him. And he was going to write a book about him, but he had a deal to basically have like chapters

of the book printed in Hustler magazine before the book came out. So it was essentially for Hustler magazine. They were going to put crime scene and autopsy photos in this story along with the rest of the story. Don't do that. I mean, it's okay. And this is 2010. Yeah, like the 80s, the early 90s. This is the difference. This is the time. This is the cultural difference of back then, this was the kind of thing, of course, when Meredith's family found out they were horrified

and they were they were like, you have to do something like this cannot happen. Well, it's the thing that you and I talk about all the time or get asked about all the time in interviews is like, why do women like true crime? And it's like because it was packaged in this way for men in a fucking Hustler magazine of crime scene and autopsy photos of a female victim who has family and friends whose life was brutally taken away. It's like, that's how it was packaged before. Now we get to control the narrative. And that is the most horrendous, upsetting thing I've ever fucking heard happened recently.

There was a whole fight about it. Of course, it was declined. And in March 2010, the court issues an order prohibiting the release of any photos of Meredith depicted in the state of undress or dismemberment. And then very soon after the Georgia House Governmental Affairs Committee unanimously passes the Meredith Emerson Memorial Privacy Act, which prevents graphic crime scene photos from being publicly released or distributed. Good. Which is thank fucking God. It's like thank God. But also when those decisions came down, and this is a this is a straight lift from Wikipedia.

Please go give them five dollars right now. They need your help. The article says quote hustlers response was through an email and that said quote hustlers aware of the GBI's refusal to honor its reporter's request for copies of the Emerson crime scene photos, which were to be used in a news story about this crime hustler and Mr. Flint disagree with the GBI's position and are currently exploring all legal options available to them. Should the decision be made to go forward with the story. So they're basically saying like we reserves a right to do this. We disagree with this unanimous verdict about how fucked up it is.

And it was 10 years ago. So Gary's trial for Cheryl Dunlamp's murder began in February 2011 after significant delays caused by arguments over which evidence would be admissible. Because ultimately the prosecution they were prevented from presenting any evidence relating to Meredith Emerson's murder or mentioning Gary being the alleged killer of John and Irene Bryant. So they had to like block all that off. And I'm sure they were arguing that all of that was prejudicial.

What the court does here is how Gary Hilton abducted Cheryl Dunlamp from the Leon Sinks Geological Area held her for two days after which he killed and decapitated and partially dismembered her. He also attempted to burn her body parts, then basically dumped the rest of the remains in the forest. He is ultimately found guilty of three of the four charges and the jury unanimously recommends the death penalty. So on April 21, 2011, Gary Hilton is sentenced to death in the state of Florida.

And then in March of 2012, Gary again faces trial this time in federal court in North Carolina for the kidnapping, robbery and murders of John and Irene Bryant. He initially tries to plead not guilty, but as with Meredith Emerson's case, he strikes a plea deal. He admits to killing the Bryant's pleading guilty to robbery and firearm offenses in return for being sentenced to a second additional life term without the chance of parole. Gary explains that he killed Irene immediately before abducting John in order to obtain their banking details.

Gary then shoots John in the head before dumping his body in the forest. So this is where the court learns that after Gary murdered the Bryant's, he drives them from North Carolina to Georgia. And then once there, he gets caught camping on private property. And so the police are called and they go there to talk to him. But authorities are only required to run his license against the state database, not a federal one. Oh, no.

So that outstanding federal arrest warrant from 2005 doesn't show up. And Gary is let go with a warning and he continues on to Florida where he kills Cheryl Dunlop. So sadly, that could have been prevented if, but there was no, there's no systems and place to check federal warrants. Right. That's just sad. Yeah.

Yeah. In January, 2016, the statute covering Florida's death penalty is struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court while Florida executions are put on hold. Ten months later, the Florida Supreme Court reverses that decision. So Gary stays on death row. He remains there to this day at Union Correctional Institution. Fred Rosen did publish a book in 2011 called Trails of Death, the true story of National Forest serial killer Gary Hilton.

And there's also a Dateline episode called Mystery on Blood Mountain. And that is the shocking and horrifying story of Gary Hilton, the National Forest serial killer. Wow. Wow. I mean, there has to be more victims. So I was going to say how shocking it is, it's such a small amount of victims, but it's like, because that's just all that's happened, like that, that's all that's come to light

so far. Correct. I mean, that's it. You got to figure it's tip of the iceberg. With the level of, the level of kind of mutilating of the victims' bodies, like he was clearly used to that. My sources for this story today are an article by John Ostendorf from the Asheville Citizen Times, an article by Nick Corbett in the Tallahassee Democrat, an article from the Atlanta Constitution

by Tim Eberle and George Cheedy, an article from the Asheville Citizen Times by Mike McWilliams, WCTV article by Julie Montanero, and of course, both the Wikipedia Gary Hilton page and the Murderpedia Gary Hilton page. Wow. Bucked up story. Great job telling it. Really awful. I haven't done one of those super rough, sterile killer stories in a while.

All right. Great job. Thank you. My story today is one that I always see late night on Reddit. The unsolved stories with these creepy, you know, possible red herrings or what could have happened or what detail in here is most important and there's just so much going on that you can't really figure out what means something and what doesn't, and it's always fascinating to me.

So today I'm going to talk about the bizarre 1997 disappearance and death of Judy Smith. Yeah. Connection to your story. The sources used in today's episode are a medium article written by Kat Lee, anews.com.au article by Marnie O'Neill, an episode of Unsolved Mysteries, to My City Paper Articles by Frank Lewis and then another one by Frank Lewis and Howard Altman, a Philadelphia city paper article by Howard Altman, as well as Reddit and Wikipedia. In 1986, 40-year-old Judith Lois Bradford, known as Judy, was working as a home health

care nurse just outside of Boston, so she'd go to, you know, take care of patients in their home. She had had two unhappy, failed marriages behind her, which left her as a single mother of two, and so having to fend for herself, she put herself through nursing school while working at the same time to support her kids. She was kind and caring, and at this time she was currently taking care of an elderly man who was recovering from surgery. And it's there that she meets the man's son, Jeffrey Smith.

So Jeff is an attorney from Boston, he also happens to be a single father, and he and Judy hit it off, which is like such a nice, neat, cute, right? Yeah, it is. He's touched by how well she cares for his father. She's an incredible nurse, everyone says. And so Jeff asks Judy out, they fall in love, and they're together for 10 years before marrying in 1996. So here we are, April 9th, 1997, they're married, and they're planning a trip to Philadelphia,

so that Jeff, who has experience in health law, can attend the Northeast Pharmaceutical Conference, which Karen, you and I know is the sexiest, most debauchery conference. Oh my God. Pharmaceutical world. How many of those little black roller suitcases get thrown onto beds and opened up with like, what pills do you want? Yeah, pills and thrills. That's all there at the Northeast Pharmaceutical Conference.

Oh yeah. Great talks, even better pills. So the couple plan on going after the conference to see friends in New Jersey and make a little vacay out of it. So that morning when they're supposed to leave, Jeff and Judy arrive at Boston's Logan International Airport for their 130 flight. But once they get there, and this has fucking happened to all of us, Judy realizes she left her driver's license at home.

So she's like, shit, okay, well, Jeff has a meeting that afternoon in Philadelphia. So she's like, you go on on our scheduled flight, I'm going to run home and get my license. I'll meet you that afternoon or that evening after your conference. So she does, she catches the 730 PM flight, then taxis into the Double Tree Hotel. She grabs flowers on the way to give to him to apologize for fucking up the flight or whatever, which is like door, like they're cute. They're like a cute couple. Everyone loves them.

All as well, between the couple, they go to their room that evening and discuss what's going to happen the next day. So Judy has nothing to do with this crazy sexy conference. So she's like, well, I've never been to Philadelphia, I'm going to go see some sites. She wants to see the Liberty Bell and Independence Hall, you know, she's into touristy stuff. Jeff thinks Judy's plan is great. According to medium quote, he's not worried about his wife wandering around the unfamiliar place by herself as she's an experienced traveler.

She had once taken her children to Europe for several weeks and had traveled to Thailand by herself to visit the family of a former patient. So she's fucking got her shit together when it comes to traveling. Yeah. She knows how to travel. That's right. Before going to bed, Jeff and Judy, they make plans for the next day after Judy's done traveling and Jeff is done conferencing to meet back at the hotel at 530 so they can get ready

and go to the cocktail party at six o'clock that night. So the next morning, April 10th, Judy sleeps in, Jeff gets ready to go to the conference. They have a cute exchange all as well and Jeff heads out. So then he gets back at around 5pm after moderating the final session for that day. He shows up to the hotel. She isn't there. 530 comes and goes and she still hasn't arrived and he's like, well, maybe she's down at the cocktail party and just didn't understand our plans.

Goes down there. She's not there. And then for the next like 45 minutes, kind of goes back and forth trying to figure out if he's missing her. Where is she? And around that time, Jeff asked the concierge to call the local hospitals, but there's no sign of her next still not being able to find her. Jeff hires a taxi to drive him around the city to follow the path of the tour bus that she

was supposed to take that day still doesn't find anything. And he's like maddening. I know. And he was like, the taxi driver was so mad at me. I was making him go super slow so I could see exactly what's happening. People were honking behind us. I didn't care. You know, he's like, what is happening?

Yeah. What do you do? You're like, he's that's the part before you're calling the cops because you're like, I don't want it to be a thing where the cops have to be involved yet. Right. I'm going to keep trying. Or like maybe I misunderstood this. Like she misunderstood what time we're supposed to meet where we're supposed to meet.

Maybe I did. Like it's all going to be come clear and funny in a minute, but it's not. Yeah. Yeah. He calls Judy's children to let them know what's going on. He was like, go check our, you know, message machine back at home to see if she left a message because there's no cell phones, of course. There's nothing there.

And so finally he goes to the police to report her missing. And they are of course like, you have to wait 24 hours. Yeah. And luckily, you know, some high profile people in the city, this conference thing and laughing helps them out. And so they're like, okay, come back in the morning and we'll file a report. And he tells them there's no way Judy was kidnapped off the street without someone noticing because she would have caused a scene.

Judy's son Craig later tells police quote, she's the most difficult person to try to embarrass in public. She doesn't like something. She is yelling, but also Jeff doesn't think that Judy disappeared on her own terms. Last he knew she was carrying no more than $200 cash. She had left $500 in the hotel room. She hadn't used her credit card, her bank account or a phone charge card. And in the beginning, police in Philadelphia don't take Jeff seriously.

They suggest she disappeared on her own. Maybe she's having a midlife crisis. They say at the time, Jeff feels like the police have the mindset that, quote, women sometimes do these crazy things. Like basically was she's like, ooh, I'm out of here. You know, I need some time alone. Sure. You'd travel to a completely different city to then just go off on your own.

Right. And you're happy marriage with your kids who love you and don't tell anyone and just wander the fuck away. Yeah. Within a few days of her disappearance, one detective even tells the Boston Globe that while Judy quote, does not seem the type of person to just disappear, it's quote, not uncommon for a person of this age to have a midlife crisis and disappear for a few days just to see if anyone misses them.

You know, women in menopause. Sorry. What year is this? This is 1997. Jesus fucking Christ. You know, women when they're getting their period is essentially what he's saying. Women get all periody and naggy and like, does anyone love me? You know how we do that.

It's, it's just, you can't, especially in, you know, these stories that we read or whatever it's like the sooner you hire women to even out that overriding male thinking, right? It's that thing where women at least go, yeah, I don't know what that guy is thinking. I don't understand. Yeah. I'm confused and I wouldn't. Men are just like going to hold forth and tell you exactly what's happening and why. And don't worry, nothing's going on because I know what this middle-aged woman is doing

and thinking. I learned in 1960s cigarettes ad that when women get PMS, they get real mad and I still believe it here in 1997, like it's just some, yeah, it's old and weird and it has nothing to do with like sports, so they just don't care. It's fucking insane. Anyway, yeah, it's just irritating to hear it over and over again. It's irritating. Right, especially knowing that that wasn't the case.

Yeah. Because you're opening the door to be wrong in this way that you're being condescending, you're being illogical and you're wrong. And now you're a bad cop or detective. All right. But with no sign of Judy, the midlife crisis theory goes away and detectives of course start to investigate Jeff, the husband, even though he was at the conference when she disappeared, she's their number one suspect, which is understandable looking at the husband.

Everyone does it fine. Yeah. Yeah. He's lucky he was at that conference with like 100 witnesses that were just like, yep, all day long. We saw him all day long. Devotary all day long. Detectives search Jeff in Judy's hotel room.

Detectives start to think that Judy was never even in the hotel room because the clothes left behind didn't look worn at all, meaning she must have left the hotel room in the same outfit she'd worn the day before. Hi, Karen. Do you know how many days in a row I wear the same fucking outfit? And I'm not at a hotel in my home. But it's like, if you've got some loose travel pants that you didn't get anything on on the flight up or down or wherever you went, yeah, or they just don't notice maybe she

folded her shirt that was from the day before back up and put it in the suitcase. Do you know how many adorable like weather and area appropriate vintage dresses I bring you? You do know because you've traveled with me a lot. I do, actually. Yeah. I do not even come out of my fucking suitcase the entire there and I wear what are they called tight jeans and a T-shirt the entire time.

Why would I get an address? I like that you're saying weather appropriate when I saw you in Washington, DC in the thinnest like trench coat, a raincoat and it was sub zero and I was like, you're going to die here. How cute did I look? It was vintage. I look like Carmen Sandiego. It's fucking adorable.

You look like Carmen Sandiego went to Antarctica. Thank you. Also, there's no cosmetics in the room, so they're like, there wasn't a woman in here. Jesus Christ. Like, come on, man. They're in her purse. What the fuck are you talking about? She doesn't wear them.

She's 50 something. She's a casual lady. Her purse is her signature red backpack. That's what she wears around town. She's a nickname for her backpack she wears so often. Maybe she doesn't care about makeup. It's all in there. But also, how long are they staying?

It's the weekend, right? So you're not bringing your, you know, you're going to wash your hair with the hotel shampoo. Like it's shit like this. They don't know. It's like, oh yeah, the less I carry the better. Yeah. That's that's how that's good traveling and if she's good at traveling or not every woman wants fucking wing tips and on their eyes and fucking red lipstick, you know.

Right. So they start to believe that Judy never even made it to Philadelphia. Like the whole story of her losing her ID on the way, forgetting it is like a made up thing too. But Judy's two adult children tell detectives that what they found in the hotel room is totally typical of their mom. And they also don't think Jeff is responsible because Judy quote loves Jeff and the pair get along very well.

Still thinking that Jeff is involved though, they ask him to take a lie detector test. They say he refuses and then Jeff's like, actually I said I want the FBI to administer the test. Otherwise I wouldn't take it. And they said no. So he declined. So you got to check details people. Yeah.

Trying to narrow down the last time anyone saw Judy detectives talk to possible witnesses. So based on these conversations, here's what we know about what Judy was up to after Jeff left that morning for the conference. A couple of people in the lobby had seen her and they also confirmed with the driver of the sightseeing bus that Judy had been on at that day. She had hit different tourist attractions and then got off the bus near the Double Tree Hotel later at around 3pm on the day of her disappearance, a witness near the hotel said they saw Judy acting quote disoriented.

During all of these sightings, Judy was wearing a dark coat, jeans, white sneakers and that signature red backpack that she always wore. Police received many other tips, including the day after her disappearance, Judy was seen in the Depth Ford Mall Macy's in New Jersey, a salesperson and a customer both described Judy to a tee, including her red backpack. They told investigators that Judy said she was shopping for dresses for her daughter who never liked any of the clothes she picked out that she said specifically. According to Medium, the customer and salespeople said Judy was acting strangely and seemed

unstable. As she left quote, she tried to get a younger woman to leave with her. She seemed to think that the woman next to her was her daughter. So there's some disorientation going on. Judy's family believes that the Macy's sighting is credible, especially since Judy was known to buy clothes for her daughter. And there's also an hourly bus that runs from Philadelphia to that mall, not that weird that she would have been there.

However, Jeff can't figure out why she would go there. The only thing he could think of is that she was suffering from a dissociative disorder like amnesia. And that's why the witnesses maybe thought she was disoriented and unstable. Numerous people reported seeing Judy at Penn's Landing in Philadelphia. They realized that the sightings might have been of an unhoused woman in that area who looks like Judy. So when officers show pictures of Judy to people around that area, an unhoused man named

David says that he for sure saw Judy. He knows the woman that they're referring to, and it was not the same person the person he saw was Judy. And he says Judy slept on a bench near him one night, and in the morning he tried to buy her coffee. David's sighting is the last even remotely reliable tip for months. So Jeff stays in Philadelphia for as long as he can, searching for his wife. He puts up flyers, speaks to the media, but there's just absolutely no sign of her.

So he goes back to Boston and of course doesn't give up. For months he faxes and emails thousands of flyers all over the country. He talks to reporters as much as he can. He tries as hard as to get the FBI involved, and then he, that doesn't work, so he hires three different private investigators, and then none of them find anything of importance. It's got to be so scary to know that your loved one didn't go away voluntarily. There's no at all credible backup information to suggest that, which means if those sightings are real, they did so either by force or in a state that they're not aware of.

It's got to be so much scarier than any little evidence that they left you. It's almost like you want some evidence that they didn't want to be there anymore and voluntarily left, you know? Because yeah, then they are in charge and they're empowered, but this idea that something happened to her state of mind and that she was doing all of these things, because how easy would it be to kind of weirdly get hurted onto a bus? And now I can't remember, this could have happened to someone in our family. It also could have happened in a story someone in my family told me about a way out person,

but someone was in Europe where the cars go the other way and they got hit in the head by a truck mirror because they were looking the wrong way up the street, and then they were gone and in the hospital and had amnesia and didn't know who they were and had feared off the street. Yeah, like if she just had, you know, if she had a stroke and suddenly she was in charge of herself in the normal way, it's so scary, it's awful. Or that happened and then, you know, these touristy areas like fucking Hollywood Boulevard where it's like, hey, let me show you, I'll give you a private tour of the area or anything

like that. It's like something could have happened and or she could have trusted the wrong person and something nefarious could have happened, but either way, I mean, it's just got to be terrifying to have to go back home and knowing she slept on a bench one night, like knowing that she's kind of out there. It's not the same person. Yeah. It's something that's going on.

So then on September 7th, 1997, a tragic break in the case finally comes, the father and son are out deer hunting on the Mount Pisca in North Carolina, they're out deer hunting, they find a few scattered bones, they think they look human. And so when they take a closer look, they find a partially buried skeleton in a shallow grave near the Stony Point picnic area. Body is wrapped in a blue blanket and the remains are still dressed in thermal underwear, a bra, jeans and hiking boots. And the father and son call the police.

During their search of the scene, the police find multiple items in a few holes near the remains. See, this is what's so weird about this part, too, another like, what does it mean in the story is they're buried, which means someone else buried, someone buried them. It's not like someone collapsed and all their stuff is there. Even the scout, the partial skeleton has been buried. Yep. They find a blue vinyl backpack with winter clothing and $80 inside a shirt with $87 in

the pocket and a pair of sunglasses, so obviously that's not the red backpack. And that's not found at all. Police can't find a wallet or ID, but the victim still has their wedding ring on their finger. The skeletal remains are examined by a coroner who determines they belong to a white woman in her late 40s to mid 50s, and that the victim suffered from chronic arthritis in the left knee and underwent extensive dental work. A cause of death can't be certain, but due to puncture wounds and cuts on her bra, it

appears that the woman had been stabbed. Basically the Asheville Citizen Times run a story about the skeletal remains found, an emergency room doctor in Franklin, North Carolina, sees it, and they had seen one of the posters that Jeff had sent out all over. So luckily they were able to realize that this person was Judy Smith, based on her extensive dental records. When Judy's family has shown photos of the clothes that were found on Judy's remains, none of her family members recognize them.

They don't recognize the items in the holes near her body. The only thing that they recognize is that the wedding ring is hers. Oh, I know. So there's some people that are like, maybe it's just misidentified, it was 1997. I don't think there was a DNA test done, but there was a really extensive dental work done on Judy and on the skeletal remains, so they were able to match those. And also the arthritis and also the wedding ring, but it's still like, wouldn't it be great to have a DNA match as well?

We don't have it. But her family... Dental though. Yeah. Her family thinks it's her. The dental match is the old DNA, and that's pretty specific, totally. So investigators asked Judy's family if they can think of a reason she'd be in North Carolina, which is 600 miles from Philadelphia where she had last been positively identified.

According to my city paper, quote, to Jeff's knowledge, she had no friends or relatives in that region. Her only connections, he says, were a week-long trip to Raleigh Durham to visit Jeffrey at a weight loss facility several years earlier and a drive to Tennessee or Virginia. They couldn't remember which, with a patient of Judy's who wanted to visit relatives there. So she has no ties to the area and no reason to be there. Authorities start investigating Judy's murder. They have multiple questions to answer, like, how did she even end up in North Carolina?

Why was she wearing hiking clothes? And of course, who killed her? They know for sure at this point that Jeff didn't kill her. It was known where he was this entire time. They just... They know it's not Jeff at this point. Yeah. Detectives go to the nearby town of Asheville, North Carolina, hoping to speak with people

who may have seen her around the mountain. A clerk named Joanne tells police that in mid-April, she was in Asheville and they had a friendly conversation where Judy said she decided to visit Asheville while her lawyer husband attended a conference in Philadelphia. So she's not totally... If she did have amnesia, it wasn't... She had some details or, like, a stroke. It still makes sense that little blips are firing if she had a stroke, right?

Yes. For sure. The stroke seems to me, from the little I know and a couple of people I know who have had strokes, it's a physical problem that then you kind of come back from, but her freely walking around... They would have said half of her face had lost, you know what I mean? Yeah. There's different signs that people have had strokes that EMTs especially can recognize

where slurred speech, you know, part of your face going slack, there's different things where she wouldn't have just been walking around seeming like a lady that's erratic at Macy's. You know what I mean? They would have been like, oh, I recognize this is what's going on because there are more physical manifestations, I guess is what I'm saying, as opposed to I'm just trying to think of and make up reasons where it's that partial... She kind of knows what she's doing, but she kind of doesn't, which is like, what would

that be? A blood clot, a small aneurysm, or she got hit in the head and kind of came back and was like, I'm fine, but what really wasn't fine. You know what it kind of reminds me of in a way, although clearly two totally different stories, is what happened to Aunt Diane, that documentary, where she just completely changed personalities 100% and did something totally seemingly out of character, but maybe it wasn't. We just didn't know about her real character, you know, all these little things, right? It's like, it reminds me of that, or it's like, what happened in this person's head

and why, and circumstances that led up to these tragic events. And how little we know other people, even people like our parents or our siblings, people we think we know so well, where if something like this went on and then people were just informing you about what they were doing and you'd just be like, I don't understand any of this. So be well during it. And then it makes you also wonder, like, that the driver's license, forgetting the driver's license, if it was, it has something to do with it and we just don't understand, like,

did she actually have plans and she needed to go back home by herself to fix some issues? Ooh, I see, you know, like, like that was just an excuse so she wouldn't have to fly at the exact same time because something else was going on or she could go home and pack something different that he would have noticed or change something at home or if she normally would have never done something like, because forgetting your driver's license is weird, it means it's outside your wallet. Well, they talk about, they talk about that too. I agree.

Well, here's the thing, though, is it was, it was just the beginning of when you had to have an ID to get on a plane. So her forgetting it wasn't that weird. However, I carry my ID with me everywhere I fucking go, right? However, moms love gigantic three-fold wallets with checkbooks and pens and all kinds of like, that's to me, and maybe that's just like how I was raised, but my mom always had like a billfold style, like all kinds of things. But like you wouldn't, your ID goes right in the, in the part with the little window.

It's always there. So to me, like a free-floating single, just an ID on the counter is very like, I'm in college and I'm making dumb decisions and grabbing my ID and putting it in my back pocket. I'm bringing a clutch out tonight with me because it's cute and goes with my outfit and I forgot to take my ID out of my clutch and put it in my billfold the next day. Yeah. Moms are billfold based. Moms don't do cute clutches and Trent and fucking Carmen Sandiego trenches and fucking

the average mom. Maybe we should say the average typical our moms in the eighties. My mom would never let anyone touch or look at her driver's license, much less of her wallet. Remember when you're trying to go through your mom's purse to get a thing and she just like her hair would stand up on end and she, my mom would say, stop risk of monitoring my purse. She gets so mad that she is a Yiddish word, which you risk of monitoring risk of monitoring

stuff. We're still monitoring my program. He's like fucking with you know, your mom uses Yiddish words to yell at you. You're in big trouble. See, I think I was much more devious because I knew like you had to get money for the candy that we were going to go get at the store every single day. You had to like pickpocket at least 75 cents out of your mom's wallet in some way. So you have to be careful, real quiet.

You had to plant it ahead. There's a lot of devious behavior. The sister would have to distract her with a down question that mom knew was bullshit. Oh my God. Yeah. Bring her up the hallway so that I can get my Snickers money. Hey mom. Hey mom, can I ask you a question?

Coming back to this chick said she didn't, Judy didn't seem disoriented or unstable. She seemed perfectly normal when she saw her in in Asheville. So there are numerous other people who saw Judy in Asheville, including a hotel clerk who says Judy stayed at the hotel from April 10th a second and other seemingly credible sightings. And we know that eyewitness statements and sightings are always under, you know, scrutiny because it's so hard to tell, but I think there's little details in each of them. And there's enough in this one small area that are credible that it does seem like

it was her. I mean, I'll say this, it makes me feel relieved if she in the beginning was sleeping on benches, but she got it together enough to get some cash and get a hotel. At least she was indoors. Yeah. Yeah. So where'd she get that cash? And there was another sighting of her with a car.

And there was cash on her. Yeah. And there was cash on her. Yeah. Yeah. In the end, investigators are unable to answer any of their questions. They have no idea why Judy was in North Carolina or how she got there. And they don't know why she was wearing hiking clothes.

It does seem like she hiked up there by herself on her own accord because it was a kind of, you know, up a hill remote area. Someone had killed her. They wouldn't have brought her to that area, you know, how they say, like, murderers don't carry their victims uphill after they're dead. It's just not a thing. Right. Yeah.

So they have no idea who killed her. They have a ton of theories, like we discussed. And Sheriff Bobby Metford's theory is that Judy wanted some time away from Jeff or she wanted to completely start her life over by disappearing, which who the fuck, it could be true. Who knows? Doesn't seem possible. Could be.

I don't think a mother would just abandon her kids without a word like that, you know? Also, she's being an in-home care nurse. Those are some of the most like caring, considerate people there are. So I would think she would be like, if that were the case, she would sit everybody down and be like, guys, I got it. I got to go for a while. The idea that you would do it and just leave everybody in the lurch and scared to death doesn't track with at least what I know from you telling me.

And, you know, at some point while doing either one of these things disappearing on purpose or something going wrong, she was murdered. We don't know by who. One of the theories is that Judy was murdered by none other than serial killer Gary Michael Hilton. The, say it again. The National Forest Serial Killer. Thank you.

Tyans. We love them. Yeah. We found around 10 miles from where Judy's body was buried. Oh. But this is 1997, so it totally fits with your theory. Ten years later, she was an early victim. Yes.

Judy was early. Exactly. On the timeline. Wow. Authorities investigated this possible connection, but were unable to find anything linking Hilton to Judy's murder, but fucking stranger things, man. Sadly, Jeff Smith passed away in 2005. Never knowing what happened to his beloved wife.

And as of today, no one knows how Judy ended up in North Carolina or who killed her. And that is the mysterious disappearance and murder of Judy Smith. What a horrible, horrible way to lose your mom. I was thinking the same thing. I didn't put their names in the story, obviously, and I couldn't find anything about them, but heartbreaking, heartbreaking breaking. Yeah. It's also just right when she finds new love and everything's kind of going great.

It just doesn't. That's the other part that doesn't track. It's not like her and Jeff were married for 40 years and she was like, enough of this already. Totally. It seemed like. Like that part doesn't. Yeah.

They were going on this trip. If you're in an unhappy marriage, you don't go to his boring ass conference. You're like, I'm great. I'm going to stay home. Yes. That's correct. Like she's like, I'll come with you. We can hang out at night and then after we can go visit our friends in New Jersey.

Like, that's a fucking happy couple or my happy couple for sure. Yes. If I go with Vince to fucking WrestleMania, just so like I can hang out all day and I'll meet up with him later, that's, I didn't, I didn't do that last weekend, but we're still in love and that is a very loving, but there's so many WrestleMania's in the future and there have been so many of the past point is like that's devotion. You know what I mean? It's true.

Yes. Well, and it's also being up for, yeah, you're there for the hang because that's the person you want to hang out with the most. So it's not that idea. That's a really good point of like, if that whole thing of this is, I need to get away. She had the opportunity to get away when he was going away that weekend. That's exactly right. She should have kind of been like, I have fun, close the door, pack your shit, get the

fuck out of there. Yes. You're totally right. Yes. There's so many steps in between where, and this is why I hate gold cases because it's all theory. And then hopefully in some amount of years, there will be something that, that comes up, but that idea that you just have to kind of live in this, the weirdest story ever that

ended in murder, it ended in murder. It did. And there's so many, and this is what these stories that keep me up all night on Reddit is the like, what do you think are, a lot of these threads are, what do you think is a red herring in a cold case that everyone focuses on that has nothing to do with it? And it's like, is it the red backpack? Is it that she forgot her ID and had to go home? Is it that there were these sightings that, you know, that they thought they were her

and they weren't, it has nothing to do with her case? Like what are those stories? And like same with, you know, Jean Benet, where it's like, which one of these points are a red herring? Is it the DNA? Is it the this? Is it? It's just like, that's, that's why I'm obsessed with these cases and I know you hate the exact

reason you hate them is I just like can't look away. I have to obsess about them. Yeah, I get that. I guess I just, it feels like especially that story, it's just so heartbreaking that it feels like, but if this were just world we'd live in, this would get smaller, this would get someone would figure something out. It's tragic. It's really fascinating though, that it's connected to the early days of Gary Michael

Hilton, where he was, and he's still alive. So he could actually come forward and be like, I've got information. Why not? Come on. He's got like 16 life sentences. He's not going anywhere. Let some people off the hook, but this is what you and I've talked about of like, if you take anything, any secrets to the grave with you, you're a fucking asshole.

Like just let everyone know your secrets before you die. Like, get out there, or you're an asshole. I mean, he's clearly an asshole, but. Good, well, good story. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks everybody for listening and being here with us.

Hopefully everything's going good with you. We're thinking about you and wishing you well. Okay. I don't know. Aunt Georgia. Thinking of you, honey. Thinking of you, sweetie. Now take your ID and zip it in your pocket, please.

Careful. Oh. Nobody holds loose IDs. It's just silly. Back pocket is not a good place for an ID. Inside your phone case. If you're for some reason, it's loose. Put it in.

Put it into the phone case and lock it back down. All these Gen Z's are like, grandma, we fucking know where to put our ID. They're like, yeah, that's okay. We don't like help. We're Gen Z. Fine. Then just stay sexy. And don't get murdered.

Bye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton. Our producer is Alejandra Keck. This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris. Our researchers are Gemma Harris and Haley Gray. Email your hometowns and fucking her A's to myfavoritmurder at gmail.com.

Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at myfavoritmurder and Twitter at myfavoritmurder. Listen, follow, and leave us a review on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget you can listen to new episodes one week early on Amazon Music or early and ad free by subscribing to Wondry Plus in the Wondry app. Goodbye. We'll be right back. Alright.