My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 337 - A Survival Story with Kara Robinson Chamberlain

Episode Date: July 28, 2022

On today's episode, Georgia and Karen are joined by survivor and activist, Kara Robinson Chamberlain. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff. And today we have, this is a very special episode. We're very excited about it. Our guest today, if you listen to episode 248, Georgia actually covered her case on this podcast. So chances are you may have heard it, or if you haven't, you might want to go back and listen. She is a survivor at the age of 15. She escaped a serial killer and her ability to stay calm and pay attention and be present

in a horrifying situation actually led to this person getting caught. And then she went on to become an incredible advocate for survivors. And now she's here with us today to talk about all of those things. We're so happy that you're here with us today. It's Cara Robinson Chamberlain. Hi. Hi. We are really honored to have you.

This is something new for us, and we're really excited to learn from you. You are such a force in the world of survivors and how to talk about experiences. And I think for us, having done this for so long and learning from the podcast and from our listeners telling us how to do things right and how not to retraumatize survivors and their families. So we are really excited to learn from you today and also just get to know you. So thank you so much for being here. And yeah, I covered your story a couple of years ago,

and I reached out to you on Instagram and I wanted to see what you thought about that and how I could have done it better. What message could I have sent and done better and just, you know, take your temperature on that really. Yeah. First and foremost, thanks for having me, ladies. And thanks for being willing to grow and learn because so many people just are not willing to change and they're not willing to learn. And I think it's such an important part of life to be able to admit, you know,

that maybe we could do better. And this is one of the great first steps to have survivors on and to tell their stories. So yeah, I did listen to that episode and I appreciated all the nice things you said there were, you know, it's always a little bit like a game of telephone when someone else tells your story, right? So there's sometimes things that are lost in the details or that are a little bit different, which is why it's always helpful when we as survivors are able to tell our own stories, just because it's our truth and it's our experience, right? So I think you guys did a great job covering it.

I think that one of the things that I did notice, and this is something that's commonly misconstrued, is that the deputy, well, he was a corporal that was in the region whenever I came in. And many people often say when he didn't believe her when she came in, which is a common thing that people have misconstrued what I have previously said, because I felt initially when I went in like I was not believed. However, as I got older and I went to work in law enforcement and I just got wiser, I realized that it was not that he did not believe me as much as it was more likely a sense of disbelief, but let's look at the statistics.

Stranger kidnappings are not incredibly common and especially very uncommon for someone to run into a region. This was like a substation, so people don't kind of go in and out all the time. And so he's in there at the beginning of his shift and someone runs in and holds up handcuffs and says, you know, I was kidnapped. So I mean, who wouldn't be in a state of disbelief, right? So I think that kind of led to that. But I did feel really supported by him once he kind of shook himself out of it, right? And I mean, another proof of how disbelief affected him is, for instance, the handcuffs.

I still have one handcuff on my wrist until the investigator got there. So that would have been like 15 minutes. So he was very much in shock himself. And I think that is also just something to take into account with these true crime stories is that there's often more than one victim. It's not just the primary victim that's affected. You can look at first responders, family members, friends. There are these circles. It's like the ripple effects when a rock gets thrown into a pond, right?

So he as well had some experiences from my quote, my trauma. Wow. And do you think that's a thing that I mean, the first thing I thought of was that's better storytelling quote unquote. If you walk in and you're going, I have this proof. This just happened to me and then, oh, we don't believe you. Do you think that's part of that telephone game where as the story gets told, the drama gets added or the conflict gets added, you know, people basically embellish? Yes, I think that's the case. And I think that often when you talk about media or true crime or content creators, if you look at any media, everybody wants to be the first.

You have to make a name for yourself, right? So content creator, there's so much content out there. And how do you differentiate yourself? You have to tell the story more sensationally, right? So I think that things can get added and embellished in that way. I think it's very easy. And that's been one of my negative experiences that I had for many years sharing my story because I did interviews before I had children for years. I did some television shows.

I did different things. And I would always tell my story just like I'm talking to you guys right now. Very matter of fact, there's not a lot of emotional connection when I tell my story. And that's because of how I dealt with my trauma. It was compartmentalized, I'd associated. That was my survival mechanism. And so I would tell my story to media outlets or television shows or what have you. And I would always get after the cameras would go off, can we record this part?

And can you inject a little more emotion into it, right? And that's just not my truth, right? Like that's just not how I experienced it. And that was due to what their experiences had been with victims, right? And so I think that sometimes it's the game of telephone where facts get misconstrued. Sometimes it's people wanting to embellish or make it stand out or sensationalize. And I think that's kind of the core of what happens is people want to tell these stories and make them even more dramatic. It's like, well, let's just tell what the person's truth is, right?

Like it doesn't need to be any bigger or crazier. No, it's yeah, plenty huge. Especially your story is completely shocking and big. And also to us, you know, that's one of the other things we've learned. That idea that there's this expectation watching people who have gone through something and saying, oh, they're not reacting in a certain way. That means this, that or the other thing. And thus learning very early that judgment is one of ignorance because the person is the one who just went through something potentially unimaginable.

And their reaction is not going to be like if you got a sad letter from someone. It's like people are comparing apples to oranges and then saying you're doing it wrong. Right. And just like there are thousands and thousands of personalities, there are thousands and thousands of trauma responses. So any reaction is normal to an abnormal situation, right? There's no abnormal reaction. So everyone brings their deck of cards and everything, their background and their experiences to the hard things that they go through. Because everyone goes through something difficult in their life, right? And we all find our way to survive it.

We all are born with a survival mechanism. We all have, you know, fight or flight and to expand it, fight, flight, freeze or peace. So that is made to protect us and everyone will react to every single situation differently. Definitely. I think even seeing this perceived calmness when telling your story, people probably assume that you're fine now, you know what I mean? It's like they want to see this crying. They want to see emotions. And that means that to them or to people that you're feeling it.

And then this calmness is like, well, then she's fine and she can talk about it. And I can talk about it and it's okay. But that whole disassociation thing I totally identify with. And I think that that's such an important thing for people to realize happens in a trauma situation. Yeah. And isn't it so interesting that people may see me and they may see how I speak and how I do these public appearances and think, oh, well, she's, and I'm using air quotes, dealing with it fine, right? Right. She's quote, not affected.

And I will tell you, this is a lie that I told myself for 15 years. So we're, I mean, we're coming up on 20 years since this happened. And for 15 years, I was like, this doesn't affect me. You know, days and days and weeks and months can go by and I don't even think about it. It doesn't affect me at all. Well, newsflash, when you have a traumatic situation, it affects you in some way, shape, or form. But mine wasn't an emotional impact. It was that I continued to suppress all of my emotions and I didn't feel things and I tried to numb.

And my body was still feeling all of that stress. So the majority of my healing has been within my body and learning how to feel feelings again, which is so gross and inconvenient. But God. I know. So much. It's the worst. It's so funny because it's what you needed. It's what you personally needed is to not feel the things and to not deal with them right now and to put them away.

And you made this incredible, you know, it, it worked. You made this incredible life. You become a victim's advocate. You're a mom. You know, it's like, it worked for you. And so maybe in the last five years or whatever, you're ready now with this support system and with this strong personality to now deal with that. And I think that that's okay. If you had dealt with it 10 years ago or right away, you might not be in a position to help other people and yourself. You can't blame yourself for needing those things really.

And I think a lot of people who are survivors like you in whatever their trauma is blame themselves for experiencing it wrong, whatever that is. Right. And one of the things that you said that reminds me of something that I also find interesting is I was told for many years that, wow, you're so strong, which we think of like, that's a positive. It was a positive attribute, right? But it just goes to demonstrate the importance of not placing labels in general because to me, I thought, I'm strong. This doesn't affect me because I'm strong. And because I'm strong, I can't cry. I can't be affected. And so I had internalized something that would even normally be a positive attribute and it had become detrimental to me.

And it took me many years to realize that strength doesn't mean you can't be affected. It doesn't mean that you can't cry and you can't feel feelings. And it took having children honestly and looking at my children and being like, I don't feel feelings with them to realize that maybe I was affected and maybe my strength could look different. Yeah. So what steps did you take to start to heal and feel those, not heal, but feel those feelings and try to deal with them? I just honestly, at that point, because I think it's common knowledge how inaccessible therapy can be for many people. And talk therapy, I had tried talk therapy and it was not really something that felt right for me at that time. Just because everything was so buried, I knew that I had to kind of do the legwork myself.

So once I realized that the primary emotion I was feeling was anger, which is like the hardest one to suppress, right? It's like, I'm just really, really angry all the time. So I just kind of dug deeper. It's like that. Okay, but why? Why are you angry? Because things are out of control. Why are you angry?

And why are things out of control? And just kind of going layer by layer. And then once I realized that I wasn't feeling feelings, I just started really allowing myself the space to feel feelings again. And one of my biggest tools continually through this process has been physical fitness, which reminds me of how I'm strong in different ways. It's a good way to like mark your progress and your growth and see how much stronger you are than then. It teaches me to give my body rest and grace. And it's been kind of my biggest learning environment has been the gym for me. And it also helps me to kind of feel like I have probably a little bit of ADHD.

And I sometimes feel like whenever there's a lot going on, I told my husband that it feels like I have a big gigantic cardboard box that somebody just dumped a thousand bouncy balls into. And my brain is just like, yeah. And he's like, well, maybe go work out and then I'll go work out and it feels like all of those bouncy balls just kind of settle while I do that. So it helps me to kind of put things in their place. So that's been my biggest tool through this process of just kind of figuring out where things go. And now that I've done a lot of that like work and I've done some other like modalities and somatic healing things that have helped. But now I've started with the therapist that's going to do some EMDR, which is should be interesting to do that. But I always knew that because everything was buried so deep that I was going to have to go with some of these big guns of healing modalities.

And so that's been that's been the healing journey of the last five years. And I would say the previous 15, I did nothing. Everybody wants to know what did you do in that in between time? Like I literally did nothing because I wasn't affected is what I told myself. So for 15 years, I was like, I'm fine. Wow. And well, first of all, it makes sense to me that no one else could tell you, OK, well, here's what you're going to need to do. It's a very singular experience that you had that very few people can speak to, right?

So you really actually were on your own. But at the same time, we all are when we are trying to recover from whatever trauma that we have. There's no one size fits all. So you can go to talk therapy for a while and then discover that it's not digging into the place that you feel like would actually solve some stuff. So you go try other things and like on all the different levels, it feels like that is kind of the healing journey for everybody. Ultimately, it's like, how do I feel inside? And like, if I'm not feeling good, I'm the only one that's going to know the truth of that. Because the thing that gets me about you saying that is it feels like you felt you had to make sure other people thought you were OK.

Yeah, 100 percent. Yeah. And I think I did not really know before that time other people that had been through similar experiences. So a lot of my healing that's happened in the last five years has been because I've met other survivors as well. And so I do want to go back to how you said that we can try different things and it kind of ties into me saying that I didn't see other people because we very often, I think it's getting better, but very often we only see one path towards healing, right? We see therapy, but good, affordable, accessible therapy is just not an option for many, many people. And I was one of those people I was outside of the victim's assistance window.

And so I was like, OK, now that I'm ready to heal, how do I do it? So I like to try to look at healing as like sitting down in a restaurant and having a menu. You have to, you know, or opening up a cookbook that your grandmother made, right? Where you need to have a lot of options that you can pull from because not every day is going to be the same. You're not going to have energy one day for something that works another day and vice versa. And so when I really began my healing journey and I started meeting and seeing other survivors that had similar situations, I realized how, quote, normal it was for me to react and the way that I was reacting and how affected I actually was. So that started when I met Elizabeth Smart.

She interviewed me for a crime watch daily that she was a correspondent on that. And that was the first time that I sat down with someone and I remember looking her in the eyes and I said, I didn't tell people for a very long time my story if they didn't already know it. I said, because there's a look that people give you. And I said, you know the look, Elizabeth? And she said, I know the look. Wow. And that was the first time that someone got it.

Someone understood what I meant. And that kind of began this passion and this drive that I have to show people these different ways to heal and the different ways you can feel affected. I went on about a year after having that interview with Elizabeth. I sat down on a couch for survivor talks with Elizabeth again and five other women who were kidnapped. And that was one of the most healing and impactful things I've ever done in my life. And it healed me in ways that I didn't even know I was wounded. And to sit there and talk about things that I had dissociated. I didn't even realize what I had been feeling the last 15 years and to hear them give voice to the thoughts that were buried deep in my subconscious.

I was like, oh, this is what it means to be a public trauma survivor of a stranger kidnapping. Like it's a very different, it's just like I don't know what it means and what it feels like to be a sex trafficking survivor. So, you know, speaking to someone who is a childhood abuse survivor doesn't, it's not quite the same. And so that began me having a passion for putting my content out there and my troops out there because I think the more we see people hurting, healing in different ways and with different modalities that will help other people heal. Right. So healed people heal people just like hurt people hurt people. And so I'm very open and authentic about my vulnerability and my journey. And I try to just show up as I am because I truly believe that people people need it. We need to see people that are on the same path as us completely. Was that a TV episode of TV of you guys all sitting down together?

Yes, it was smart talks. It aired on Lifetime. So we were getting together to discuss our experiences and sort of offer our advice for Jamie Kloss because this was shortly after she had escaped. And so that's what was given to us as the premise of the show. That in itself seems like some kind of therapeutic, you know, shame and trauma survives in the dark really well. And so it must have been hard to start sharing your story. You know, I have never had a problem sharing my story. I've always been willing to do it. But it was very uncomfortable for a long time to share with people who didn't already know it. So someone be like, oh, I kind of have heard of what happened to you. Can you tell me about it? And I would be like, yeah, sure. But to say, you know, oh, how did you get into law enforcement?

I'm like, well, actually, I met the sheriff because I was kidnapped, right? And people are just there's this look where there's like a deer in headlights. And they're like, oh, my God, what did I just do? Right? Yeah. And and then often the response is, I'm so sorry that happened, which was to be quite honest, people saying I'm so sorry that happened was the reason I didn't share for a long time. It was that look and people saying I'm sorry because what it feels like to me when someone says, I'm so sorry that happened to you. It feels like you feel sorry for me. Yeah. And then for me as the survivor, it feels like I have to then reassure and comfort you that no, no, I'm fine.

And so it kind of puts the burden back on the survivor that's sharing and it kind of puts the focus on the person that's receiving the story. And for me, I didn't I did not know for a very long time, how do I respond to that? Like, it's okay. And that's not what do you say? Right? Yeah. So I didn't share for a long time because of that. And as I've gotten older and I've done more sharing, I've learned different ways to respond because people still do respond in that way. I basically say, I understand your sentiment and where it's coming from, but I'm not sorry it happened.

It's what made me who I am. It's what put me where I am. It's a terrible thing that happened. But I, I choose to only take the good things away from that that have made me stronger because to me, it would feel incredibly ungrateful to say, yeah, I'm sorry, that thing happened too. Because that's why I got into law enforcement. That's never a field I would have chosen. That's how I met my husband. That's why I have the life I have the children I have.

That's how I got into advocacy work. So that would just feel so just thankless for all of this great stuff I have in my life. So that's been, that has helped me to share. But I think a thing that is interesting when you say it must be hard to share that a lot of people may not realize. And this is not something I realized until I had a community of survivors who are public speakers who are around me. And there's this, it's a little bit like the Brunei Brown vulnerability hangover, right? So like, I feel a little bit like I got hit by a truck. Like 24 to 48 hours later.

I'm like, no patience. I just, I mean, to be quite honest, I'm like, I hate everyone. Everyone's stupid. I just want to sleep. I don't want to work out. No one talked to me. Don't breathe in my presence. And it took me a really long time to make the connection.

And it took me having other survivors who are like, oh, yeah, that's, you know, you have a sharing hangover. Like you have a vulnerability hangover. Like that's a real thing that happens because even though I'm not processing and feeling the emotions, my body is right. My body's like still feels like it's stuck in those moments and that panic. So it's been an interesting process of learning all of these things. And I anticipate it continuing for the rest of my life, right? Because healing is not, there's not an endpoint, right? Right.

And there's those fascinating discoveries about, we all think we know ourselves really well. And we all think that like, okay, if it's not going across the like LED digital readout across my brain, then it's not happening. That whole thing of like the body, you know, the book, the body keeps the score where it's like a whole different situation is happening physically. And if you kind of are brains only, if you're like neck up type of person, then there's tons of surprises and tons of discoveries. I mean, like that's, I feel like that's been my entire therapeutic experience as me four days later being like, sorry, I meant to say I'm really upset. I couldn't feel it real time. That's how I was raised, blah, blah, blah, whatever. So it is like, after a while, it does become a very interesting, or at least I should speak for myself.

Therapy has been very interesting to me in all the things I don't know about myself. And that kind of like, oh, I could fix this now that I know it's there. Yeah, I would agree. I think it's so interesting. I mean, I made a connection. I feel like I'm a little bit of a slow processor sometimes. And so I made a connection even in the last week, like I've always hated pull ups. They make me like irrationally angry.

I'm like, I don't care if I never get better at them. They are the worst thing. They are the devil's exercise. I would rather do a hundred burpees than five pull ups. And that's pretty unreasonable, I think. And so I made a connection the other day. I was like, oh, all of my trauma is stored in my shoulders and my chest. I was like, maybe that's why you hate pull ups because all I'm using is like shoulders and chest, right?

I was like, so I actually talked to my therapist about that, like yesterday. And she was like, yeah, so you're feeling angry because obviously that is a feeling that is trapped in those muscles. And she was like, you know, the protection mechanism is to curl up as a child, right? When you're in danger. And so I had, you know, a kind of chaotic childhood. I call it chaotic childhood before that. And so I think that was always kind of where I stored it. And so I was like, that's an interesting discovery for me.

I was like, oh, now I can understand why I hate them. And I can utilize tools, right? I can breathe in a certain way to calm my body down and like feel those feelings process through them and then keep doing the pull ups. And eventually I'll stop feeling so irrationally angry. I don't think I'll ever like them. They still suck, right? They're still terrible. Well, it's interesting that making space for feelings, like understanding that feelings are not actually what's the danger.

You know, it's like, if I don't feel this, then it's not happening. So suddenly the feelings become these villains and that whole practice, which is just making space for the actual feelings. So like if you're hating pull ups, you just sit there and let yourself feel that anger and rage and hate and make the space as opposed to closing down around it and trying to make it go away, which is for me, what then makes more problems. And it's like, no, no, just it's fine. I let it come through because it's a feeling it comes and it goes. The threat isn't the feeling, even though that's what our brains eventually tell us. Yeah.

And, you know, I love what you said and to piggyback on it. Feelings aren't good or bad. They just are. They just exist. You don't have to say, oh, I'm feeling angry and it's bad. And it's like anger can be good and happiness can be inappropriate sometimes. Right. Like I have a puppy and he bit someone the other day, like right on the butt.

And I was hysterically laughing. I was like, I'm so sorry. This is so inappropriate. I should not be laughing right now. It's like, like, so that was a bad feeling in that moment. I just could not stop laughing. And so, you know, feelings are, they're not good. They're not bad.

They just are. And you just, like you said, you just have to ride the wave, just allow it to come and just ride the wave. That's such a good point. And I, you know, I caught myself recently and I realized there are so many times where I have said to myself, I can hear myself saying, don't be sad, don't be sad. You're not sad right now. You're not sad right now because being sad is bad, right? But it's like, but that's not going to keep it away, you know, at all. It turns out it's still going to be there and manifest in some other, in some other way or anger too.

Like I'm not allowed to be angry. That is not okay in my life. And it's doesn't, and crying doesn't serve any purpose. And so clearly that is a bunch of repressed emotions that I don't go away, you know? Yeah. And that's, that's like the result of toxic positivity culture, right? It's like, good vibes only. Like, it's like, no, there are so many other vibes.

Like you can have all the vibes here. We're like a vibe friendly zone. Like feel how every, the heck you need to feel. Like because if, like how detrimental is it to be like, I can only be happy, right? It's like, there are so many emotions in human existence. And I don't feel, I mean, I would even argue that without those more quote, negative feelings, right? Like you can't appreciate the good feelings. Absolutely.

If you've never felt low, if you've never been in a valley, you can't appreciate a mountain, right? So I, I think it's just there, they all exist for a purpose. And we are, we just need to feel them all. Yeah. Oh God, the me of five years ago would be like, sure. This is a safe space for that kind of talk here. I promise. Yeah.

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I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. If you have any prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast Killer Psyche Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. I wanted to ask you in saying that thing. I think a lot of times we say things like if somebody tells you a difficult fact about themselves and then you say, oh, I'm sorry, you went through that. Like what is a better response that's actually more supportive than that? Because all I do and I'm in a position like that is start thinking about myself.

Don't do it wrong and don't be a bad person and don't do this and that in that kind of narcissistic panic you actually do more harm. Is there a better way to like think of it and approach it and better things to say? Absolutely. Thank you for asking that because I had to actually think about this. What would be the things that would be more supportive because I was asked this a lot when I started, you know, putting out content. I was like, don't say I'm sorry. And people are like, what should we say? And I was like, let me think about it. So I will speak to someone like me. I will speak to my own experience.

It's very different for different experiences, whether that be, you know, trafficking or the death of a loved one or the death of a child or things like that. They're all very different and every person is different. But for me, the things that I felt were more helpful were the comments that made me feel empowered. So even though I took it too far eventually, when people commended me for my strength and my bravery, that felt a lot better. And that helped me to kind of shape who I became. But if someone were to disclose, you know, because chances are if you are a human in this world, someone will disclose a sexual assault to you at some point in your life. Very often the first person that someone disclosed sexual assault to is a close friend or family member. And how that person reacts, no pressure guys, but how that person reacts dictates how they treat themselves and if they go forward and report.

So the first thing that we as advocates always help people is to start by believing. So whether you say, if it's appropriate to say, I believe you or you just convey that you believe them, that's always the first step and the most helpful thing. Some other tools that I've given people, I speak to law enforcement a lot and other first responders and give them tools. And so I think it's always helpful to say thank you so much for sharing that with me. Thank you for feeling safe enough to tell me your story and your truth. That really means a lot. I feel honored that I hope to hold space for you and to let them talk and let them lead because chances are they have feelings. And very often people do say, I'm sorry, and they try to kind of make it about themselves or they don't know how to respond. So they probably want the space to be able to talk about how they feel. And so asking like, how do you feel? How can I support you? Is there anything that I can do? They may not know, but you can just sit there and listen.

And then I think it's also appropriate many times to not tell your own experience. Just let them continue with their experience. You mean how we just... No, no, no, no. Not at all. We're like, I want to talk about my therapy. No, I'm like, don't compare. Don't be like, but your trauma is worse than mine. It's like, it's not. It's just is. We just all go through bad things. But if they ask, you know, have you experienced anything similar, then that would be an appropriate time. But really just to be like a loving, supportive person.

So I think really the most helpful things are, I'm still working on this as well because my default responses, I'm so sorry. You know, like, I know I shouldn't say that. Like, I'm the one that's bothered by it, right? When I have spoken to law enforcement, one of the tools that I tell them is to say thank you for trusting me and then that they believe them. And to tell them that they, I guess it would be different with law enforcement, but with law enforcement that they will do everything they can to help them and to really be authentic. Which was, I mean, that was a learning journey in and of itself when I worked in law enforcement and I investigated sexual assault cases for a while. And I was like, how do I tell people that I have to close their case because there's not evidence, right? Like, how do I let them know that I believe them? And I was lucky enough to have someone that I was training under in investigations who gave me the term that I went on to take into my advocacy work now.

And it's I believe you. I just don't have enough evidence to make a judge and jury believe you. And I don't want to put you through this rigmarole of a trial and reliving everything if there's no prosecution. So, I mean, sexual assault, it's, I think it's honestly, it's less than 5%. I think it might be less than 2% of sexual assault cases in jail time for the offender. So, so it's, it's very difficult to process. And I think just knowing that you feel honored to be part of their story and you feel honored that you're a safe space and that you're proud of them for doing something that might be hard. I think those are the most appropriate health responses. That's amazing. To speak on that, that kind of reminds me of the term that we've been hearing a lot lately of retraumatizing.

And you talk about that in terms of people who are now so interested in true crime and talk about it and people like us who have a podcast about it. And the idea of being part of a group that retraumatizes is, is terrifying to me. So I know you talk about this a lot. Are there steps there that we can take to make sure that we're not retraumatizing? It's tricky. I know it's tricky, especially when you have a fan base, you have people who are consuming at a very fast rate and you have to keep up, right? And so I know it's tricky, but I think one of the things that content creators, media could use to their advantage very often the response I get is, but it's legal. Not just telling stories because it's public knowledge, like the information is out there.

So can you tell it? Yes, you can. However, is it necessarily ethical to take someone's story that is quite probably the most horrific thing that's ever happened to them and definitely the most personal thing they've ever been through and for someone else to tell that story for their own gain. So like for a for profit type content. It's tricky, right? I would argue very often that's kind of exploitation. And that's what the media does. And I get that the media has the ability to tell those stories.

But I would argue that if you want to be a compassionate and trauma informed content creator or reporter that you should try to get the permission of the person of the victims of the families. You should try to respect their wishes within reason, obviously, but in how they tell the story. And you should always try to, you know, point back to them when and if you're able. And this was a lesson that I had to learn myself even as I was working on my documentary. I went and spoke to the families of my captors other victims. And I said, I'm going to do this documentary. I want to help other people. And this is kind of my first step is to tell my story in a way that I'm proud of. And so I can't tell my story without telling your daughters, your sister's story.

And I want to do that in a way that you would be proud of. So I first asked them if they would participate. Like, will you talk about your daughter? Will you talk about your sister? Because I know that they were so much more than just these girls who were murdered. And so I want to honor them and hold space for them for that reason. And if you do not feel comfortable, who would you feel comfortable with telling the story? Who do you feel would be the best person?

And so I took that into account and, you know, I had one family who said, yes, you know, we would be totally okay with that. And we wish we could share. We emotionally cannot do that. But here are the people who we would trust to do that. And then I had the other family who just said, absolutely not. Do not ever speak my children's names. Wow. And I luckily was working with a phenomenal production company.

And I said, I don't know how to navigate this. Can you guys help me navigate this? And because I had done, that was one of those heartbreaking conversations I had ever had to sit across from a woman whose children were murdered. And I thought I was doing the thing that was loving and supportive to honor her children. And I was injuring her. I was re-traumatizing her. And I just sat at dinner and I just, I honestly sobbed for like two days straight. And I was like, I just messed up so bad and I don't know how I messed up and how can I do better.

And luckily my production company really did handle it with grace and they handled it well. And I told that story just to say it is possible. It's tricky and it is a lot more work. But to be compassionate and to be trauma informed and survivor centric, I think that's one of the ways it can be done. And then, you know, to not just tell these stories just to tell them. There's a lot of people that are telling stories just because true crime is the number one genre right now, right? So there are people that are telling these stories because people want to consume them. However, what are you doing after that to like give back?

So what are the calls to action? What are we empowering our listeners to do? Because we are in this unique socio-economic climate where people want to do better and they want to, you know, put their money where their mouth is or they want to do something. It's like, okay, so let's motivate these people to make change because think of the impact that every single person could make if they were being driven and called to action. Absolutely. You know, when George and I started this podcast, it truly was like, oh, true crime. John Wayne Gacy, like, you know, serial killers and this concept that was very kind of distant and just a thing people talked about. And it's slowly through basically interacting with our audience, interacting with people who we had told their stories and hearing back from them.

Like, that was for me, I think, a turning point when Jennifer Mori wrote in and I had seen her story on I Survived and retold it. And then she sent an email. And the second, I can't remember, Georgia, if you saw the email first or if Steven saw it, but someone said, oh, Jennifer Mori wrote an email and I was beside. I was just like, oh, no, this is horrible. Like, I was so scared, you know, this is a real person and a real survivor. And it was a very nice email and we ended up getting to meet her and, you know, all that's great. But it was one of those turning points of what we're doing here is different than the day we started because we're slowly starting to understand, which it feels like lots of people are slowly starting to understand at the same time that these stories are not just distant fictions.

And oftentimes it gets served up of, oh, you know, we've all been watching cold case files and Dateline and forensic files for 30 years. And bringing it home as just these are people has been such an eye opening, just a true discovery. Not that we didn't know that before, but that this is the discussion. Because in truth, I think, you know, the reason that true crime audiences are like 90, 80, 90% women is because women do empathize and do care. These are all very keyed in caring people who want to make change and want to make difference and oftentimes have their own stories to tell. And that's part of the engagement. They're kind of hooking arms with other people and saying, let's all be together and let's all discuss this openly and support each other. Yeah. And how beautiful is that that like you have this community base like underneath you supporting you and just I just that makes me feel a lot of different ways just to know that,

you know, there's this this base of this pyramid that can just really do some monumental things and I think people with compassion. Sometimes we don't know how we feel we don't know how to help and I think it's just so wonderful to tap into and recognize like yes these are stories of people like you know that but it gets lost in the noise sometimes right. You just kind of it's like working in law enforcement they always tell you like you can't get desensitized. You can't get complacent about what's happening and I think it's the same kind of thing when you're telling these stories day in and day out. And so to tap into hey, these are people. So how can I motivate these other compassionate driven people. Let me give them, you know, somewhere to point that like, let's let me just give them something powerful that they can point all that compassion towards and you know it's it's just really it can be really powerful if you're if you're willing to harness it for good right like anything can. Yeah, definitely. So when you attended the police academy, there's that story that your case was taught in class that had to be completely surreal and mind boggling I'd imagine. Can I use language before I answer that? Yes, we want to always always always.

Okay, okay, because I'm going to tell you my real reaction. Okay, so yeah, in the academy I enough time had gone by at that point that if people did not know me in 2002, they probably did not know my story. So I was at the the academy. It's a state academy. So there's, you know, law enforcement officers from all around the state. We had a pretty close knit class, which was we were told was somewhat unusual. We were all very close. Everyone was friends with everyone. And so we were about halfway through the academy. So it was 12 weeks. And so we're about six weeks in at this point. You live with these people, right? So like your own lockdown. And I was the class leader. So sitting at the back of the class, we're all filing in like after lunch. And I'm, you know, come in. And I see the slide show that's up. I'm showing my age saying slide show. I see the slide show, you know, the first slide that's up. And it's a photo of the three girls from Virginia. And I honestly, I saw it and internally I went, Oh, shit. It's like, how is this going to go? Because I have no idea. You know, if it were media, they probably wouldn't have my photo, but this is law enforcement, they have access to different stuff. And I was like, is my photo, am I going to be outed in front of all these people who don't know? Like this is going to be hella awkward basically is what I'm just thinking. Like this is going to be so terrible after like how am I going to eat dinner with these people?

And so we went through, it was about missing children and how to handle those cases. And so the instructors telling the story and telling the story of the three girls in Virginia. And no one knows what happened until in 2002 in South Carolina, a girl named Kara. And luckily there were no photos, right? It was just a girl named Kara. And because I had not done much public media before this point. And I think, you know, one or two people kind of turned around. I was the only girl in the class. And so a few people turned around and they were like, we have a Kara, we're in South Carolina, you know, they kind of, what are the chances, right? And so then, you know, that class is over, everyone files out, I kind of hung around and went up to the instructor and I said, Hey, so Kara and I pointed at the screen and I was like, is Kara and pointed to myself and like my ID badge and her face just went, you know, like, like she'd seen a ghost, right? And she just went, Oh, my God, I'm so sorry I did that. But did I get everything right? I was like, yeah, I mean, for the most part, like you did a great job. And she was just, you know, apologetic. And that's what I remember the most was that response. And then a few days later, I got called into, you know, the law enforcement leader over instruction, I got called into her office and she said, So we would like to give you an award at graduation for outstanding bravery.

And I was like, Okay, so I'm going to have to tell my classmates because again, we've been here together and they're gonna be like, What the hell is she getting an award for? We've literally been doing all the same stuff she's been doing. And so I did, I got everyone together for dinner one night and I told them my story and I said, You know, they're going to give me an award and everyone was just like, Oh, my God, we're so proud of you. You know, they were super supportive. They're phenomenal. And then yeah, I got an award at graduation. That was the beginning of kind of my public speaking career because there was media there and it's a story. I think it's I'm moving. It's usually on the shelf behind me. I would normally be like, And there it is. But but it's not there right now because I have it's probably boxed up. But but yeah, it was it was a very interesting experience to say the least. Yeah, that's real. When people call you brave and is that weird when people tell you how brave and badass you are. And you know, it's so weird. It's so to be honest, it's so weird gotten used to it. No, I don't get used to it. So when another thing that happened when I was in the academy is there was an officer that came and spoke to us and he was shot at point blank range when 22 who shot in the face and his radio didn't work and he walked a mile to where his radio worked and called into dispatch and told them, you know, very clear like this description, he was just so calmly actually were able to hear the dispatch. And I remember sitting in that class and thinking, I don't know if I could do that if I was shot in the face like drag myself a mile to the road. And then, you know, as soon as that thought hit me, I was like, Why are you talking about you idiot? Like you've done something that a lot of people would hear be like, I couldn't do that. And so that was kind of the beginning of me realizing that we hear these stories and we think, Wow, like what a badass or how awesome is she.

And I could never do that. But the important thing to remember is that you absolutely could like we all have something inside of us that wants us to survive like we have an actual system in our body that is only for survival. And so you never know what you could do. And that helps me to kind of come to grips with it too, because I always think, Is it that amazing? Because I'm like, I don't know. I was just doing what I had to do to survive. So to me, I'm like, I just lived. I don't, right? Like it's this weird thing or I'm like, I don't get it. I don't agree. Because I think everyone sort of has that in them, right? Like you hear all these amazing stories of women who lift cars off of toddlers, right? And so I think, you know, that's why it's weird to me. But I will grudgingly accept it. It's just your experience. So from the outside, it is an incredible story. And it is an inspiring story because of exactly what you just said, like, I think, and maybe that is part of people watching true crime is I would be so scared if this happened to me. Look what she did. Like she was scared. And she was, you know, in a horrible position. And then look what she did. I can do that too. I think there's, there is a little bit, which I'm sure is so uncomfortable. It's like, it's almost like hero worship in that way of going like, wow, that's the ideal of how I would want to be if this happened to me. And so, you know, it puts you in this position of having to kind of be on the receiving end of other people's stuff all the time. It feels like. I actually had someone leave a comment today and they were like, I aspire to be you. And I'm like, please don't, please don't aspire to be me. I'm like, please just aspire to be the best version of yourself.

I'm like, like, I am full of flaws. And I mean, it goes towards me saying, you know, I'm a good victim that dealt with things well. And it's like, no, no, no, that's why I try to be as authentic as possible to show people like there's no right or wrong way. It's like everyone is going to survive in their own way. And it's often messy. And sometimes it may be messy under the surface, right? It's, it's that calm on the exterior and just chaotic inside. And it will catch up with those people that are calm on the surface and chaotic inside very often. I mean, I'm a prime example of that. And so I think it's, you know, it's just something fun to think about. Yeah, part of true crime for me. And for us, I think is that I am, you know, having anxiety, I am constantly aware of the bad things that could happen. Will I be okay? Won't I be okay? Am I just being paranoid? And then you read these incredible survivor stories like yours. And it gives me this weird sense of peace in that, okay, people have experienced these things that I'm constantly worried about and survived. And then in your case, thrived. And it's so inspiring. It's so, it does make me feel in a way that like, yeah, if Kara can get through that, then I totally, I can get through my fucking day. You know, it's, it's inspiring.

Do you want to hear something that I heard recently that helped me with my anxiety about my children? So for me, once I had children, that's when I really started having more anxiety, just because, you know, there are these little beings that live outside of me that I can't control and anything can happen to them. And so I heard someone say this recently, and it just gave me a lot of peace. And so that whenever you speak about trauma and the effects of trauma, you imagine two lines on a piece of paper. And one of those lines are your coping mechanisms and one of those lines are the things that happen. So the more coping mechanisms and the more tools you have in your toolbox, that brings you closer and closer to that line of the bad thing that happens. And that space in between is where trauma occurs. So if you don't have enough tools, and you don't have enough support to help you deal with bad things, then that space between those two is, is trauma. So that helped me to alleviate some of my anxiety about my children. And I think would help other people as well. It's like, yes, bad things can happen. But if you have tools and you have support and you have ways to deal with these bad things that are, you know, healthy and move you towards health, as opposed to in the opposite direction, then there's not as much trauma. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yes. Totally. I love that. Yeah. It's like there's resilience. Yeah. Lives right there. And what we were talking about before, which is moving yourself toward health is not about how other people see you. And it's not about putting on a brave face. That's not health.

Strength isn't synonymous with health. I think you said that before, where it's just like other people deciding if you're okay, has nothing to do with you feeling okay. It's kind of like turning that more inside to like getting all those tools and all that stuff, not so that you can make everyone feel better, but so that you feel better. Right. And what even is health? Like, is that a destination? Like, what even is that, right? Like, do you ever arrive there? You're like, oh, I'm healthy now. No, it's like it's an ongoing journey, right? And so, I mean, I think just even knowing that is helpful for a lot of people, but it's like, it's like a sliding scale, right? Like, some days you're closer to doing things 100% great. And some days you're not. And you can have a really shit day, and then you can have like a really amazing day, one right after the other. And healing is not linear, right? It just doesn't go from point A to point B. It goes all over the place. And then sometimes backwards. Always backwards. So annoying. I wanted to ask, you were talking about doing public speaking and motivational speaking. How was the first time that you actually like got a gig to do that? And I mean, was it super scary? Or did you start doing it and go, this is what I meant to do?

I think I always felt like that was what I was meant to do. So I don't even remember the first time that I did it. I don't I'm thinking about it. I'm like, when was the first? When was the first speaking thing that I did? I don't even know. So I think I've always felt like intuition has always been a big thing for me. So as soon as I felt the gun pressed to the side of my neck, I had this intuition, I will escape, I will survive. And here's how I will do it. It was an intuition. So intuition has always been a big tool for me in my journey. And so I always had an intuition that I dealt with this fine, right? My air quotes are coming out again. I dealt with this fine so that I could share and I could help other people. And so my journey was always if I can share my story and I can help one person, I would consider myself successful. And then here I am many, many years later, and have had some amazing responses and people whose lives have genuinely changed. And I think, okay, this is why I keep doing it. And this is why I keep putting myself out there. I mean, honestly, I don't feel like I've been asked anything that I'm like, I feel like all the questions have been asked. So at this point, I'm like, all right, let's go, like, let's do it. I think everything is kind of on the table. Having worked in law enforcement, especially, I'm like, let's talk, we can talk about all the things. But, you know, it's, it has been interesting and empowering for me because sometimes the events that I'm like the least excited about to be quite honest are the ones that I end up having the biggest impact. I did a pretty large law enforcement conference last year and I didn't really feel like it went that well, to be quite honest.

And I got a message about less than a week later from someone who said, I used these tools and these words that you gave me when I was interacting with a seven year old girl who had just been sexually assaulted. And he said, I experienced something I've never experienced in my entire life. I've been working these cases for over 10 years and I've never experienced this. He said, I told her that I was proud of her and I told her that I believed her and I told her that she was being so brave and she smiled. He was like, it's never happened. And that was the moment for me. I literally have a folder in my phone of like screenshots whenever I get these messages where I'm like, this is why you do this. This is why I continue to do it because that little girl's life has changed. She doesn't have, you know, a law enforcement officer that's going to stand across from her and make her feel like she's a victim. She has someone who immediately made her feel like a survivor.

Yeah. Yeah, that's incredible. What an amazing place to realize you belong where it's so needed. That kind of information, it's subtle and it's small, but it doesn't seem to exist in law enforcement, like at least in the stories that we often read. For all the advances that have been made in all the other places, still interacting with survivors and people that have dealt with anything like that. It just doesn't seem like that happens as often or that people come away from those experiences. And that's just as difficult as the thing that they went through to get them in the police station in the first place. Yeah.

And I mean, I would even, so you guys know about the Enneagram? Are you Enneagram people? No. So it's like a personality test. So I am the peacemaker is kind of my, I guess personality type, but I also have this challenger side of me. She's like my wing. And so I like to challenge people lovingly. And so I would even challenge you guys to think, well, you, Karen, to think about what you just said about how you don't hear these stories and think about, you know, I'm sure you've experienced, you guys have experienced this and not so many words. You've said this, that law enforcement, nobody calls them when they're having a good day, right?

So they're only dealing with the worst of society. Yeah. Okay. So how much must that impact their heart? If they felt compassion and they put their heart into every single case they worked. You can't, that's like picking up a cinder block with every case, like it would, it would literally bury them. So law enforcement is very often taught not to get emotionally invested in cases. However, the flip side of that is if you look at cold cases or cases in general that have the most success and have the best survivor law enforcement reaction. This is a perfect example of this. The best responses are when law enforcement does get emotionally invested, right?

So for me, I was kidnapped from one county and I was recovered in the next county. So I had two county sheriffs who had dramatically different reactions and responses to me. So I had one that was your typical law enforcement response of being detached and, you know, giving the fact and less than 24 hours after I escaped said, well, you know that guy was going to kill you, right? Like, you know, you should be dead right now. And was it true? And I use this when I talk to law enforcement. Was it true? Yes. At the time we did not know that it was true. We did not know he was a serial killer. He never led me to believe that he was going to kill me. So was it true? Probably. Was it necessary? Was it helpful? Was it supportive? Absolutely not. None of those things. It was not appropriate to tell a 15-year-old in her front yard, you know, 24 hours after she'd escaped from a serial killer that she should be dead. So that's Sheriff A. Sheriff B, however, was just like, I'm so proud of you. You're so brave. Gave me awards for bravery.

Let me present an award to the men who took me to law enforcement. He essentially adopted me as another daughter. He has all girls. And so adopted me as another one of his girls. And, you know, the next summer I was like, hey, do you want a summer job? Come work in administration at the Sheriff's Department. And I did. I worked there through high school. I worked there through college. He came and checked my grades. If I didn't have good grades, I couldn't work there. And so, you know, it's, he was emotionally invested, right? So he made a survivor. So it's this, you know, there's no right or wrong way. I look at everything in the world and this like shades of gray, like there's no black or white way to deal with things. It's shades of gray. So, you know, ideally the best way for law enforcement to respond is with compassion and with kindness without getting emotionally invested. I don't know how to do that necessarily. I don't know if it's always possible, but I think that given the right tools and words, you can convey compassion without taking on that mantle of emotional involvement in all the cases. And so, I mean, I would imagine that you guys resonate with some of that.

Definitely. Entirely. Well, and it's almost like that's the discussion that only you could open with those people because you actually have the experience of being a survivor and the experience of working in law enforcement. So you can go in there and talk about this in a very personal way and in a way that's only constructive to say, Hey, can't something like this be better? And I can't imagine that there aren't people that are like, this is all I want. This is this guidance to make this not so awful for survivors is the goal. I would imagine for anybody. So it's really an important discussion that you've now kind of pulled into the mainstream, pulled right on to TikTok as we know you're now a TikTok star. I'm a star in my own play. Yeah. It's weird to share your story. You know, it's one thing to do it when you're doing a speaking event in person, but it's got to be. I don't. Is it scary to present that into the void on Instagram and TikTok? It's awkward. I will say that. But as long as like my husband's not like on the other side of the door, like I had, I did a TikTok live today and he was like in the next room. And I was like, Oh my God. I'm like, I can, like I can put on my mask, right? And I can like put on my public persona. But like if someone that actually knows me is like, what is she doing?

I get all nervous, right? But it's, you know, I think TikTok has changed a lot in the last couple of years. I started TikTok in the fall of 2019. And so I started it because I knew that I wanted to do more public speaking. I knew that I needed to make a name for myself, so to speak. And the internet was this big, gigantic space and trying to make myself known on Instagram was like, I'm a little fish in the ocean. How is anybody going to find me? And TikTok was just coming about and I was like, well, there's this. And so it was very, very supportive in the beginning and it was amazing. And it was not really intimidating. It was great to share in that avenue because I really like being kind of on the ground with people and like speaking to actual humans that are like going through it. I feel like I have the ability to have more impact in that way than many other ways. And so it was great because I had people that were coming to me and I was shepherding them through these very difficult situations very often.

And so that was then TikTok changed a lot in the last year, especially they have completely like shadow banned me. They don't push my content. They push it to like 1% of my followers. So it's different. I get a lot more trolls over there. But again, I'm the challenger. So when I get trolls, everybody's like, oh, just ignore them. I'm like, oh, no, I will not like I will hold them accountable. And I actually last weekend, I had someone that was just like trolling me hard. And I was like, let's go. I like put on my battle, right? And I pick up my axe and I'm like, I'm ready. Like, let's go to town. And very often it ends with them, you know, just like deleting their comments or blocking me or whatever. And because I'm very compassionate when I challenge people. But this particular person at the end of the interaction, he said, you know what? I was wrong. I'm going to delete my comments and I've changed my perspective. You've changed my perspective. And I was like, oh my God.

Tara, I think that's the first time that's ever happened. I was like, yeah, she won a troll war. That's insane. Now you have to let people call you badass because right there, hands down, hands down. Yeah, this guy started his response and it was in it was me sharing about whenever someone else tells my story and how that feels. And he said, Oh, boo, who like you shared your story and public. And I was like, excuse me. There's just like boo, boo. And I was like, I'm like, literally like rubbing my hands together. I'm like, let's go. I'm like, I'm ready. So you're saying I should start engaging the trolls again. I think that's what I'm taking away. Listen, sometimes it's just a good avenue. But how often how often do these people actually get challenged, right? Right. Like I live in this mentality of hold people accountable because they are never going to change if they are not held accountable.

Like my children, they're held accountable for their actions, right? Like, I mean, my son, he's eight and yesterday in the afternoon, he ate all of the fruit in the house. And so that was like all that we had for breakfast was like parfaits. And so this morning he's like, I don't want cereal. I'm like, we shouldn't eat all the fruit. Like you have to be held accountable for your actions. I'm sorry, you either eat cereal or you have a protein shake, right? Like hold people accountable. And I think, you know, if you come at people and try to hold people accountable or change their mind with anger, they're never going to change their mind, right? But if you compassionately hold them responsible for their actions, sometimes you can change people's minds, not always, but sometimes it happens. Not always, not almost ever on social media. One of the things that helps me deal with these people also is to know that very often when someone's attacking you, it has literally nothing to do with you. It's everything to do with them. And I just think, wow, how unhappy must someone be to attack someone else online, unprovoked, to like come on to my social media.

Like you found me and then you took the time to type out a response and tell me, you know, that this is the best thing that ever happened to me because it gave me relevancy or whatever, right? Like, you must be really, really hurt. And so that helps me to compassionately respond to people. But yeah, I mean, sometimes I do better than others. I think anyone that comes into a survivor's kind of like feed who's telling their own story and says, oh boohoo, should get their ass kicked IRL. That's just my personal, non-compassionate, non-therapized opinion. But that's my husband's opinion as well. He's like, screw that guy. And I'm like, no, I'm going to tell him lovingly his business. And he's like, why do you do that? I'm like, I don't know. Oh my God, one thing that you have done and we keep saying survivor is that I think that you've changed the narrative of the word victim to survivor, which is probably really empowering for people who thought of themselves or were called victims in the past. Yeah. I mean, it makes it, it puts the focus on the person who survived, right? So when you say victim, and I very early in my speaking career made this connection.

I mean, I think back sometimes of when I was doing that, I was like, 22, 23. And I was like, how wise was I to make this connection? And it's surreal to me in a lot of ways. But that was one of the connections I made very early on is that I did not identify as a victim because you think of, you know, if you're a victim of a robbery, you're a victim of a carjacking. If you, you know, love someone that was a victim of a murder, it means something has been taken from you, right? Like your car has been taken, your TV has been taken, your life has been taken. I don't give anyone that power over me. I'm not related to that person. He did not take anything from me, right? Because I'd retain the power within me. So to call myself a victim would continue to give him power over me. Whereas to say I'm a survivor, that means, yeah, I mean, something bad happened. But look at all these positive things that came out of it. And I think it's just that shift in perspective, right? Perspective changes everything is that shift for many of us that when you realize that's when you can begin to move forward. And when I worked in victims assistance and law enforcement, that was one of the things that was very hard for me at that time was to see people who were stuck in that victim mentality.

Because I was like, you can change this. Like you have the tools at your disposal to become a survivor. And I had a really hard time with it. And I think that's why because you are continuing to let your circumstances control your future. And I know that sometimes people are stuck for a lot of different reasons. But for me, that was something that was very important is I don't feel like a victim. I think that's probably also why I didn't like people saying I'm sorry. Because I'm like, I'm not right. I'm not sorry. So thank you for giving me so much credit for being one of the people that has changed that narrative. But it's always been something that's been important to me to make that shift. And I think it's continuing to change. I think we will probably see survivor begin to be phased out at some point, just because even that some people are uncomfortable with that. They want to not be defined in that way because very often we who are sharing our stories publicly kind of get pigeonholed into this survivor thing.

And people are like, oh, just come and tell your story. It's like, OK, that's like a facet of who I am. I'm a lot more than that. And I would argue that the other stuff that I am in spite of this or because of this is the more important thing to talk about. I know people want to hear the story, right, just compelling. But that's kind of why I would imagine that as this continues, we'll begin to see other terms pop up. I'm not sure what they'll be yet. And I think everyone will have something different that fits them. But for right now, I think survivor is kind of the best term for when you're speaking of people who have survived horrible things. You're setting this kind of pattern of saying, here's what works for me. And since this is my story, this is how it's going to go. Which is then empowering other people who see that and say, oh, yeah, that's why victim always bothered me is because I don't identify with that. And what do I identify with the example that you're giving is that you're in charge of your own story and you get to dictate how that goes. That's exactly why I feel comfortable being a challenger because there are so many people who cannot or will not be able to speak up for themselves or they may not realize that they're a comfortable victim.

Right. So that's a small example. But that's why I feel comfortable challenging people with these different ways of thinking of things because they may not have thought of it that way. Or I'm speaking for someone who cannot speak for themselves or would not have the opportunity or the platform or the ability to speak in the way that I'm able to speak. And so that's definitely a big reason why I continue to do this and challenge. I just challenge anything. Anything I'm able to. Yes. I love that. It's amazing. My husband does not. It's okay. It's like, do you always have to have your own way? I'm like, yeah, I do. I do. I'm sorry. I'm trying to grow. I mean, you're thriving. You're a thriver. Maybe that's it. That could be a, yeah. I think so. I think people love that like Victor. I think one of my key notes that I give is like victim to Valor. Valor isn't really a term necessarily, but everyone's going to be a little different.

Yeah. I heard one recently that I liked and it was, it's kind of like being a grief surfer, right? It's like you're a surfer. So it's like all these surfers that are out there in the water and you can't control the waves. They're going to come. They can injure you, but you can learn how to surf on the waves as opposed to just getting pummeled by them, right? And I was like, ooh, I like that. Metronome surfer. I'm like, I'll take it. Yeah, because the waves aren't going to stop. Like the waves aren't going to stop because even separate from your own story, regular life is still going to be happening. And so the size and the power of those waves, I've had this conversation with my therapist so many times and it's like, you can stand there trying to fight against the waves and you're just going to keep getting knocked down and then going, why is life so hard? Or like you're saying, you can become a surfer. And then you actually, the idea is get yourself through these things the best way for you to get through them.

Yeah, I love it. I mean, I wish this conversation could go on for three more hours. You're so amazing to talk to. Thank you so much for having this conversation with us. Oh, thank you. Of course. Of course. Thanks for having me. We really appreciate it. Yeah. So escaping captivity is the documentary that you made. Is that right? Yes, escaping captivity, the Kara Robinson story. I was an executive producer on it.

So from the initial pitch to casting and all the things was involved fundamentally and that it aired in September on Oxygen. It's still available on Oxygen and NBC universal platforms to stream as well as it should be available on Amazon. It's definitely available on Hulu for purchase and maybe even YouTube. Sometimes it's there. Sometimes it's not amazing. And you're at Kara Robinson Chamberlain.com and of course on Tik Tok. Same in Instagram, Kara Robinson Chamberlain. Go follow her. It's so uplifting and awesome to watch her. Thank you. Thanks. I just, you know, just show up in the best way I can. And I have times from like social media is exhausting. I don't want to do this anymore. Oh yeah.

But then I realized that like that's how you actually reach like the people because you're right there in their hands. And I have, you know, some other things that I will be cooking up in the future that like I need to be able to reach people in social media for those things. Like, okay, so I need to keep going. It's just so exhausting sometimes. It's a necessary evil, but you are helping people. Yes, absolutely. And when you're ready to do your podcast, please just let us know. Yes. Well, listen, we are, we got wheels turning.

I have a lot cooking some stuff up. Oh, so many things, you know, people are like, what are you up to? I'm like, well, kind of a lot. All of it. There's a lot of things going on. I'm like, how do I, how do I even summarize this? Yeah, incredible. Yeah, thank you so much. This has been really awesome. Great to talk to you and meet you.

Thank you. Yeah, you too. Thank you. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Yeah. This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producers are Hannah Kyle Crichton and Natalie Rinn. Our producers Alejandra Keck. This episode was engineered and mixed by Andrew Eben.

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