My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 338 - We Saw What You Did

Episode Date: August 4, 2022

Karen and Georgia are joined by the hosts of I Saw What You Did, Millie De Chirico and Danielle Henderson, to discuss the Al Pacino classic, “Dog Day Afternoon.” See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. And welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hartstark. That's Karen Kilgariff. I'm Millie DeCherico. And I'm Daniel Henderson. And this is I Saw What You Did. Yay! You can tell we rehearsed that for three weeks. Five, six, seven, eight. And that's the episode, folks. Millie and Danielle, welcome. Thank you so much for letting us be on your podcast, I guess is really what this is about. Thank you for letting us pretend your podcast is our podcast so we can take it easy

this episode. Oh my goodness. So happy to do so and vice versa. I love these crossover episodes myself. I'm a fan, not just a client, I'm also a member. Millie, you're in Atlanta. How's the humidity out there? It's dreadful. Oh God, it is. I can't even imagine. Terrible. But you went to Barbell Club today. What? I did. Oh yeah. I started weightlifting. I don't know if I told you guys this, but Danielle and I came up with this challenge on one of our episodes that we were both going to start deadlifting. Wow. Yeah, yeah. That's been kind of what we've been working on this year. But then the problem is that it's like 900 degrees outside. And in gyms, there's no AC in gyms. Right. Pretty much, at least in Barbell gyms. And so I was like really having a hard time today.

So yeah, needless to say, it's hot here. Yeah. But wait, now Millie, you're technically in your hometown, right? Do your parents still live in Atlanta? No, they moved about 20 years ago. So but I left late in my life. So I had already like gone through like my 20s and a lot of my 30s before I actually left. So, you know, it was that kind of thing where I was like, well, I guess I'm just sitting here, then I didn't leave. And then I was like, but wait a minute, there's always time. And then I left and then, you know, was in LA for about five years, but and then I'm back. So yeah, it's weird, but it's not like weird in the way that it is for Danielle because Atlanta is a big city. Right. To be quite honest with you, Atlanta is basically LA except people drink more here,

I guess. I don't know. But LA in the south, it is a kind of cool city. It's very cool. There's a lot of like production and LA stuff happening here now. So yeah, feels like I haven't left a lot of times. So yeah, but you came back different. You're like an adult now in like a bigger way. You know, you've got your own stuff popping off and you came back with chops. Chops. Yeah. Chops. Yeah. No, it was, you know, like, I don't know. I loved LA. I loved living there. But, you know, if you think about house prices and that kind of stuff, you know, post COVID sort of like life stuff, I was like, hmm, maybe I should go back to the south where things are relatively cheaper and sort of more attainable, I guess. Yeah. And that's what every other person that lives in

LA is trying to do. It's really hard to argue living in LA when it's like median home price is three million dollars for like a three bedroom, two bath. It's crazy. And people are showing up with cash and being like, I'll buy that house right now. And you're like, wait, what? I don't even get a chance. No, no one gets a chance here. Oh, well, come and hang out with us. Millie knows a guy who owns a chicken shop. We got lightning bugs. Come see a lightning bug. Come on. It's gonna be great. And movies. All we do is watch movies and hang out. Hell yeah. What a joy to spend the day preparing for our episode by watching a movie. Truly my dream come true. Have you guys seen this movie before? No. Even better. Yeah, I'd never seen this. Made my husband watch it with me.

He had never seen it before. And now you're getting divorced. He's like, what is this shit? There really is nothing better, though, than I was, as the movie was starting, I was just making a list and it was like Brooklyn 1972. Yes. True story. Yes. Sidney Lumet. Yes. Like every single thing that started rolling out. And then truly and honestly, one of my favorite things about old movies like this is back then, that's when they used to use the crowd scenes on New York streets were the real crowds on New York streets that were just getting filmed without their permission. And you can fucking tell the difference of like you see people kind of looking around to do what they want and then they for one second look into the camera, you're like,

this is a real crowd. Yeah. So satisfying. And in this movie, I'll talk a little bit about like the history of it, but I think in this film, they had hired, I don't know, maybe like a couple hundred actual extras, but then like five times the amount of people showed up and the extras were like, well, I guess we'll tell these random strangers what to do on this movie because they're just here. Right. Yes. Yeah. And they look better than any hired. I mean, there were some featured extras that had to be actors, but then for the most part, the people standing up against those police barricades and stuff, they're just kind of leaning around and looking around. I was just like, God, this is the greatest kind of that guerrilla feel that was so 70s, right? New York

City 70s vibe. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll just do that little introduction thing that we do just to announce the film or whatever. Totally. Bring your show to our show. Oh, cool. In true crossover style. Okay, cool. Well, this is interesting because we usually do double features and we're only doing one film, which we've never done before, but it's exciting because I think we've all seen it and we all have things to say about it. But I guess the theme would be true crime. We're doing a true crime film because we're on my favorite murder. Yeah. So our movie for the theme of true crime is a movie from 1975. It was written by Frank Pearson based on a magazine article by P.F. Cluj and Thomas Moore. It was directed by Sidney Lumet and it's called Dog Day Afternoon.

So it's pronounced Lumet. I didn't know that. I think so. Any time we've said it on TCM, I feel like we've said Sidney Lumet. I trust the source, for sure. I don't know entirely, but I should have probably googled that or something. I think either is fine because Lumet is just like the French version. It's fine. It's just the French version. If you've heard people on TCM pronounce it that way, that's the correct way. I trust that entirely. The gold standard. Yeah. Well, Dog Day Afternoon, I think, is considered one of the best films of the 70s. It was nominated for six Academy Awards and it actually won for Best Original Screenplay.

And the director of this film is Sidney Lumet slash Sidney Lumet. And he is very famous. He's done many incredible movies. I mean, he did the original 12 Angry Men with Henry Fonda. He did the Pawn Broker, Serpico Network. So I would say he knows a little something about creating tense dramas, right? He directed my friend's Bat Mitzvah video. Pretty realistic Bat Mitzvah. He's like, why don't you get back up there with those scrolls? Let's see this again. They're heavier. Pretend they're heavier. Somebody is just like an older man is just sweating. There was so much realistic sweat in this movie where I was like, this isn't just somebody from the makeup department coming

through and spritzing people. It felt like they made them for real sweat. Oh, yeah. That was like method acting. Method sweating. Well, and like, here's the thing about Dog Day Afternoon too. I don't know if I would say this is entirely common within the scope of like true crime films, but Dog Day Afternoon was made like only a couple of years after the actual crime, right? So most everybody was still alive. And a lot of people were in jail, obviously. Yeah. So the screenwriter, Frank Pearson, who was kind of famous at his own right. I mean, he wrote Cool Hand Luke and he wrote and directed the Barbara Streisand version of A Star Is Born. Oh, wow. Which I saw in the background in one of the scenes is on the marquee at the theater.

Okay. That makes sense. That's so weird. Oh, self-reference. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. But his screenplay was based on this article that was written by, you know, these two life magazine writers and it was called The Boys in the Bank, which I feel is probably maybe a play on the boys in the band. I'm not entirely sure, but that was supposed to be the original name of the film before they switched it to Dog Day Afternoon. Much better choice. Much better choice. Totally agree. I'll do a one-sentence synopsis of this film because that's something we like to do on our podcast. We like to orient people on like what the movie is about. On a sweltering afternoon in Brooklyn in the 1970s, two men haplessly attempt to rob a bank and then end up in a very tense hostage situation with the New York City

police and the FBI. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. And dead on. Yeah. So I don't know about you guys. I don't know if you guys read about the film or sort of like the history behind it, but one of the most interesting things that I think I read about this movie was that in the Life Magazine article, the writers described the real robber and the, you know, the kind of mastermind behind the whole thing, John Waterwitz, they described him as a guy who sort of looked like a Dustin Hoffman or an Al Pacino type. Right. So isn't it weird that Al Pacino eventually just got cast in the film? You look like this guy, so I just forgot it. His name is Sonny Wurtzik in the film, so his name has been fictionalized. And I don't know, are you guys fans of Al Pacino? Devoted.

It's hard to deny a young Al Pacino. The early 70s New York energy where you're like, did you just come from a class downtown or your off-Broadway show and then you came to shoot here? Like, he's a gorgeous man. He plays that part, in my opinion, so well and so endearingly and so believably. And the beginning was stressing me out so bad that I was like, can I watch a two-hour movie that's this stressful? But because I immediately loved him and his character, then I was in. I know. He has those big, beautiful eyes and he just looks so like boyish and puppyish. And then he kind of, I think what really drew me in a way that I'm not usually drawn in instantly to most films is that the look on his face and his general Pacinoness

coupled with what he's about to do just made me instantly feel bad for him that he was put in that situation or that he put himself in that situation. Even though throughout the whole film, he comes in with the countenance of a Chihuahua on cocaine and it just goes up from there. When he finally pulls that gun out of the gift box and the way he does it is like, that's how I would have done it. Like, this is a disaster from the get-go, it feels like. It's a mess. It's a mess. When I saw him sitting in the car right before they went in to draw the bank, I thought he looked professional. I didn't know what was going on. I thought he was like a professional bank robber. He had this down. And then you hear him speaking and then he is this

like neighborhood boyish, you know, the moving right along line that he keeps saying, moving right along. It's like a Wes Anderson-y thing to me that he has obviously way pre-Wes Anderson that is so charming even though he is completely lighting things on fire and just completely messing it up right from the get-go. Just a mess. And it gave me such nostalgia too. Like, did you ever have your mom drag you into the bank and like stand here? She was doing her stuff. And then you got to play with all the pens and the paper and everything. And I'm like, oh my God, I remember how it smells and how it feels. And like, oh, just banks guys, just old banks. 70s banks. And also because back then, and I always say this, but back in the 70s,

nothing was branded. So there's those signs behind them the whole time where it's like, open a checking account. And it's just like a finger turning into a pencil or something where it's just like, nothing is, everything back then was not thought through as to how can we catch the eye. It was just like plain everywhere. It didn't even look like a bank when it very first opened. It's just like, oh, that's the local branch. Like it looked like an old shoe store they were going into. Whereas now it's like LeBron James is trying to get you to open a credit card. I love that you're right. Like the whole set up of this film was so sweaty New York 70s. There's a scene in the beginning where there's an off leash Doberman just kind of roaming on the street.

And I'm like, this is the most 70s thing I've ever seen. Like what happened to Doberman's one? Where did they go as the dog of choice? And just roaming around unleashed. Like I love that shit. It's such a perfect example of like, hey guys, yeah, that New York used to have stray dogs. It's like, this is what New York, I could have just watched footage of New York from back then, that beginning credits the whole time. Here's New York. It had stray dogs that had clearly just given birth to puppies somewhere. And then also like dudes who had been day drinking all day and like what they had ties on and suits and ties on because that's how you did it in the 70s. But they just were taking a little quick nap on the sidewalk.

Yeah, welcome to Manhattan. Just to nap it off also piles of garbage because there was probably some garbage strike at some point. So there was like an unnerving amount of sidewalk garbage like crazy. And then they would show that like the sanitation truck would drive by and you're like, is this a Richard scary sanitation truck? Like, is this actually going to pick up garbage? Because it just looks so fake. It's just like a white truck that's a sanitation and black letters. Yeah, we promise we're getting the garbage. Yeah, you'll get it later. New York sanitation. Yeah, I think that's why people are really drawn to 70s movies in general. I mean,

if you think about it like sort of in the history of film, it comes off of this very glitzy classic Hollywood era and, you know, the era of the code, the production code. And so 70s movies are by and large just a lot grittier and more realistic. And there is like actual trash in these films and people sweating. And it's like the color palettes are all like really depressing. It's a lot of tans and browns and rust colored clothing and like, you know, and there's something about that like whole era of filmmaking where it was just sort of like these kind of like young mavericky filmmakers that were just kind of like doing their own thing. So I mean, to me, it's just part of why I like this movie so much. The funny thing about this movie really is that

if you think about say watching any bank robbery movie now or like a heist movie, it's always like now a very like slick affair. You know, it's like you're watching Clive Owen and Inside Man like being all cool and having a big plan and all these fucking people showing up. And then, you know, there's like Catherine Zeta-Jones or something like moving through lasers and shit. I mean, it's like now the bank robbery movies are very like high tech and slick. Whereas like, then you watch something like this and you're like, oh, the first 10 minutes of the movie, you're like, oh, these fucking guys have no idea what they're doing. Like they're just like showing up to a bank and they have no plan and they don't know what the fuck is going on.

They don't even have fake names for each other. Like code names. Presumably, they're from the neighborhood. Like someone could be like, Sonny, is that you? Like make themselves look like not themselves. And also the youngest, like weakest guy quits immediately. Like the second that happened, I was just like, this is every plan I've ever tried to pull off. And then just someone's just like, I can't do it. I got to go where you're like, he goes, he literally said, the gun's already out. I can't get him not to quit. It was just like, oh, shit. We've committed. That dude is me where I'm like, ooh, I didn't know it was going to be like this. Yes. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered.

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Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva, we'll tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. To the gritty point, there's no soundtrack. So in every Bank Heist movie, you see there's the bongos going and you're supposed to get stressed when the bongos start going. And like, there is not a ounce of music, I think, in this entire movie. That's so funny. Like, that didn't not even cross my mind until you just said that. No soundtrack. I think there's the opening song, the John song, but beyond that, nothing. Right. Yeah. Even in the bank,

think that they would have some kind of elevator music, some K tell thing, but no, it felt like silence, which is also it's like something part of that whole like, wow, this is like some really realistic type of shit. Yeah. You know, part of what I love though about the movie and why I think it continues to sort of be celebrated is that you are effectively watching characters who are already flawed, right? They're just like, not good at robbing banks, you know, and you're kind of like, well, this is maybe what I would do if I robbed a bank. I don't know. Like, do I know when money drops? Like, how do I know that? I mean, they admit at the very beginning of the film where they were like, Oh, we thought there was going to be all this cash in here. Give me all

the money. And they're like, what are you talking about? The armored car just showed up and picked up everything. So you guys are shit out of luck. And they're like, Oh, big mistake to me. It's kind of like a real like local dumbass, Rob's bank scenario, which I don't know. I appreciate that. And also because it escalates to something that's so beyond the scope of what they were originally doing, right? Like it escalates to a place where, like you said, they start out by robbing this bank, but then they move into more of like this social commentary and this kind of cultural commentary, but what's happening at that time. But it also goes in a, it's not like dark and then getting darker. It fucks up immediately and then gets so real and then is funny. Like at certain points,

I had to keep telling myself, this is a true story, because it just seemed like they were improvising. What would you do next? There are many moments of the film that are actually improvised, like acting. And that was not a Sidney Lumet thing. Like he was not about that improv, but I think he was like, you know, I trust these actors because they're obviously like very talented because not just Pacino, but John Casale, who plays Sal, his partner, the one that doesn't run away. I mean, John Casale is a legend in his own right. He worked with Pacino in New York, in the theater, but he was also in the Godfather films, which, you know, those came before this film, obviously. I mean, he was only in five films in his entire

career because he died really young. He died at age of 42. And all of the films that he appeared in were nominated for best picture at the Oscars. It's wild. So wild. The funny thing really is that the actual Sal, the real life person that robbed the bank with John Wateritz, he was really young. I think he was only 18 or something. And John Casale was definitely in his 30s when he was in this movie. And, you know, they were like, but he's so good. Let's just make him Sal. It doesn't matter if he's 20 years older than the guy or whatever. He's like the kind of person that I think people now would refer to as like an actor's actor. Like he definitely inspired a ton of people in his own age group and his own acting group. But he continues to inspire people. Like Buskami

talks about him all the time and Philip Seymour Hoffman. And just like he just really was a very shy and cool and interesting person who used that in his acting interest. He seemed to be very revered and loved. And he was dating Meryl Streep at the time that he died. Like they met when they were doing Shakespeare in the park in New York and started dating and they were planning to get married. And that when he was diagnosed with cancer and she stayed with him through his illness and death, he filmed the deer hunter, his scenes in the deer hunter, they rearranged the schedule so that he could film his scenes first. And she took her role in that film to be close to him. Oh my God. It's really sweet. He's a really interesting, and his films were all knockout,

like knockout performances, knockout films. Well, how interesting is it that he died from cancer and it's not foreshadowing when he talks about cigarettes in the movie causing cancer because he didn't have it yet, right? That we know of, right? Exactly. That we know of, yeah. But there was, his character was so cool because I was always like, I could never get a beat on this guy. Is he about to go completely, just completely lose it and start killing everyone? Or is he the like really stressed out one who needs to be calmed down because he's never flown on a plane before? Or is he like the nice one who's making everything okay? It was really hard to get a beat on him, which kind of made me pay more attention to him throughout the movie than I think of any

other actor had played him. I agree because he wasn't playing the type, yeah. I feel like that moment though, when Al Pacino's character said, what country do you want to go to? And he said, Wyoming. I was just like, oh, oh, get these guys out of here. Like it's, they're so in over their head. It's so sad. Completely. And that's kind of like how the movie progresses. So they're in the bank, they realize that they don't know what the fuck they're doing. And then they're like, oh, but the police have just been called, which likely stems from the fact that they let that bank ledger on fire, put in the garbage can and it's signaled something. So the police are called. And now Sonny and Sal are like, well, we have to take these people hostages. And there's like,

you know, a half dozen people in the bank. They're like tellers, the manager, there's a security guard and everything. One of the women who works in the bank is Carol Kane. Did you guys see that? Immediately. I got so, anytime I see Carol Kane anywhere, I'm excited. She's so cute. So cute. And the reunion with Charles Durning, the one a stranger calls reunion. Charles Durning, who by the way, I have always loved. He plays the hostage negotiator. Yeah. Yes. Yes. But he's one of those actors who, he was born like a 45 year old vice cop with an ulcer. Like he never had a childhood. He only had ulcers. There was one point where he told Al Pacino, you look kind of squeezed out. And I was like, that's tough to hear from a young Charles Durning. If Charles Durning is

criticizing your appearance, you need to really think about stuff. Yeah. No, their dance, like him and Pacino, their dance is so fun to watch because the thing about the Charles Durning character to me that is, I don't know, that makes this movie, I think better is that he's not this like asshole guy that's like being very, he's not the James Broderick character, right? He's not this like, you know, stern police guy. He's working with him. You know, I mean, because that's, that's I think another big part of this film too is that Sonny comes out of the bank at certain points during this standoff, like fully out of the bank, like he walks out of the bank and he's walking around the block and there's fucking police everywhere and sharpshooters and the press and

there's all those neighborhood people that just showed up, right? The true neighbors at one point, sorry, but at one point there was families looking out their apartment window that like the second floor apartment and there was a baby that had her own whole window to herself. She was just like, literally like a three-year-old in the window looking down at the police action. I was just like, wow, hey, Brooklyn, what's up? Abigail, go to your police watching window. That baby is probably our age or something and she's like, I was the baby in the window of dog day after noon. I got my own view. Yes, it's me. That's going to be my new claim to fame whenever I go to a bar in New York. I'll be like, I was the baby in the window of dog day after noon. But yeah, so Sonny's out

the sidewalk and he's trying to communicate all these demands, but it's also like he's in a weird way like on a stage almost. He's like the center of attention, right? And there's something that happens to where I feel like one of the most well-known scenes in this movie is when he is stalking around outside the bank and he's already mentioned it, but outside of the bank is when he starts screaming Attica. And Georgia and Karen, you did a whole episode or an episode that featured that whole story and it was so much more intricate and detailed than I even knew it was. He's definitely drawing attention to his own plight with the cops like this push and pull that he's in with everyone except for Charles Durning, but he also inadvertently gets the whole crowd on his side just by chanting

Attica. That whole event had just happened. And so he's using it to get people on his side and the whole crowd becomes so enamored of him that he starts hamming it up and you're like, you're still in a robbery, dude. I mean, we were a little taken aback by how he's out there unarmed. No one's trying to take him down because they know that there's another armed person and we don't know if he's, if Sonny is the brains of the operation and the calm one who can negotiate, then what have we got inside? We can't take Sonny out of there. I mean, that's just wild. There's even a part where Sylvia, one of the bank tellers comes out and they're like, they try to grab her arm and she's like, let go of me. She is so upset that they're trying to

take her out of this situation. She was the hero to me. Completely. I adore her. She said, I got my girls inside. I got to take care of my girls. Like, what that? Yes. She also had every hostage like running that robbery. They're like, we have to go into the bathroom. We're tired. We were hungry. Like they were running the show because Sylvia was not having it. Yeah. I love it. So the other big event that happens in the film is that Sonny was part of his demands. He wants the police to bring him his wife, right? And the wife is eventually revealed to be a transwoman who was played by Chris Sarandon, the actor Chris Sarandon. Why did he not win Best Supported Hector Oscar? The two scenes he was in, you were just like, holy shit. This is riveted.

Amazing. Perfection. The clutching of the robe itself. Like his hand should have won. Well, he had a gorgeous manicure. He had really nice nails. And I kept waiting for the moment where it was going to be like, ooh, mishandled, ooh, problematic. And it was as if that movie was made with these people getting their story told in mind, which just didn't happen back then. It's handled probably a lot better than you would expect for 1975. I mean, there's a couple of, you know, moments of, you know, homophobia and transphobia coming from the cops and, you know, some of the people in the crowd. But for the most part, the Chris Sarandon character is not played for laughs at all, I thought.

No, right. And it's interesting too that Leon as a character is, it becomes kind of a divisive issue once Leon is on the scene because of the homophobia. So it's almost like bank robbing is cool, but kissing a boy. And so I don't know, they just, it kind of splits the community. And then, you know, there's lots of gay rights people chanting and kind of coming down to support Sunny. And then there are also people calling the cops and calling new shows and saying like, this is horrible. This is not what we're about. So it became like a very divisive, surprisingly divisive issue because you kind of think of Stonewall and, and, you know, the gay rights movement in the 60s and 70s is

something that was more unified. But it's always had these little sparks and little, little jolts that didn't fit in. Well, especially if you bring it to the sidewalk in Brooklyn in the afternoon and you're just kind of like, who's with me, Attica? And everyone's like, fuck yeah. And then it's like, wait, sorry, my wife is coming down here. Also a man. And it's like, no, no, no. Like it, it's almost like the sidewalk in the street scene is like modern day social media. And Sunny is just dipping in and out of his event being like, what do you think of me now? How about now? How about now? And just like, yeah, they're a crowd. Like then they started making that sound every time he would frisk someone that was coming in, where it was just like, ah,

look how they turn, look how they turn on you. Like Sunny also doesn't play it for laughs. Like Pacino doesn't play it for laughs. So when, even within the bank, when the context of talking about Leon, he doesn't explain himself at all. He's just like, yep, that's my wife. And this who I am, what? Like it leaps and bounds ahead of it. There's a phone call that happens between the two of them where the Chris Ranin character is next door at the barbershop. I guess that's where the police kind of set up their like surveillance for the bank. And they get on the phone with each other. And that conversation is wonderful. It's just listening to a couple talk on the phone and how they have, they've got drama, obviously. But in that moment where he,

you know, Sunny is essentially being like, I'm doing this for you. You know, you find out that's his primary motivation for the robbery is that he is trying to pay for sexual reassignment surgery for the Chris Ranin character. And it goes back to what we were just saying. I feel like that whole setup could have been real played for laughs, real jokey, but it wasn't, which is kind of fresh, I think for that time. And also a surprise, like you're robbing a bank for me for what? I didn't ask for that. When he sees him originally, was he like, was it happy birthday or I'm doing this for you? Or, and then he just straight out faints. Yeah. I mean, it did seem though that there was this kind of abusive relationship going on, at least on the part of Sunny, yeah, towards Saul.

And so to make him call his abuser, the reason he is locked up at the moment in a mental health facility to talk him out of this crime he's committing, that part's a little fraught to me. Oh, completely. I saw the documentary, The Dog. Did you guys see that? It was about John Waterwitz, basically the sunny character, the real life guy. And it's wild. He's wild. He's a wild character, but it kind of gives you a glimpse into like who he really was. And it's interesting because he was married to a woman and had children at one point, like years before the actual robbery, but he was very much involved in like gay liberation movements in New York. He was kind of a polarizing figure though, because he was kind of just like, I don't know,

like real offbeat, I guess is the best way to put it. You really get the sense, like they interview Elizabeth Eden, who is the woman that he was married to. And she kind of gives her account of just him, like his whole like their courtship, everything, the motivation behind the robbery and everything like that. It's just really interesting. And just if, you know, you're out wanting to watch a documentary about this film or the history of this film. So I would love to watch that. Yeah, it's just such an incredible story. The entire time I was like, this seems like amazing screenwriting. And then it's like, no, it's this is what happened. Like this is how they actually did this, which is it is incredible. It also makes you wonder like, you know, the whole

time thinking of like, what if I were robbing a bank and got caught and like, who thinks they're going to get away at that point in a jet with a limo to the jet? And then they're going to go to Algeria? I think they said Algeria at one point. Right. And my PD shows up and they're like, here you go, here's your circus carousel. And they're like, what? Did I ask for that? Yeah, I remember thinking too, you know, because I see this movie several times, but I remember like the first time I watched it, it's just very, you're on the edge of your seat a lot of times, like during some of this film. And one of the biggest ones for me was when they were leaving the bank to get into that limo, because I was thinking, well, of course they can't just walk out one by one

because there's sharpshooters everywhere. So, you know, they're like, well, everybody has to like stay together and they're walking as this kind of like glob of people. And then they all like, one, two, three, jump into the car together. And so it's that kind of thinking of like, oh, well, yeah, these people are committing a crime. They're thinking about it. They're thinking about how to not get killed. Yeah, they're using the hostages as body armor, essentially. It was kind of magical, though, how they ended up getting in. I was just like, God, that was a good idea where it's like, if Sal and Sunny are in the middle, then they can't take clean shots and they won't take any shots. It just kept seeming like, oh, this is impossible. They can't get past this point. And then they would.

When they were doing the human shield thing, every single hostage could have scattered. Like, they could have just run away and it would have been over. And they didn't. Like, they had this kind of affinity to these two guys that they'd spent this day with and wanting to protect them. And then when they were in the car, it was a different story. It was kind of became a little bit more heightened once they realized we're actually getting on a plane going to Algeria. That switched there because there was an affinity between the hostages, which were mostly female. They all did have this camaraderie, especially with Sunny, who was the sweet young kid, seemingly. And charismatic. No one really wanted him to get shot by a sniper. And so they were there

to protect him a little bit. And that change once they got on the bus, if they take a shot at the captors right now, our heads are right next to theirs. And if they miss, we're screwed. That was a very scary moment, I think. Tension. There was so much tension in the moment. When I first watched the movie, I'm like, well, what if they do just kill everyone just to get out of it? Like, that's not unheard of. Like, they could just take some casualties here. And the tense moments of the movie are alleviated by so much humor. Like, the tellers are dancing in the bank and they're, you know, trying to do like drum core moves with the guns, but then they instantly bring it back to the most stressful place possible. And that to me is a real testament to Sydney

Lumet's like the scope of his directing and the scope of his, the way that he kind of ran this show is that he never let you forget that like, there's actually something really stressful happening here in the midst of all these funny moments. It's so interesting to think about, I don't know, just how this movie has persisted over the years. I mean, honestly, if you only remember Pacino from like maybe Scarface or like Scent of a Woman, you will be maybe shocked by how good he is in this movie. No, you're just like, oh, you know, all that pomp and circumstance that people have known him for over the years, he is like a downright fantastic actor. And like, I feel like this movie really shows that. Yes. The energy that he has to hold from the get go.

And it truly is from when he's sitting in that car and just sitting there staring straight ahead. And it's so intense. And then it just goes up from there and it never comes down. That energy of like, because there was some, there was some scene where it's like, like third time you went outside and him and Charles Dernig are just screaming back and forth. And there's, it's so intense and the crowds involved and the cops and it's like, don't shoot and all this stuff. And then in my mind, I was just like, all right, cut, we'll take that again. It's like, nothing about this feels like a movie. And I'm sure it has to do with the directing or whatever where the cameras are or something or the just the verite of it. But like, you just completely

forget that you're not watching a documentary already. Those are the moments that feel improvised in a good way because they're so heightened where it actually seems like Sonny and Charles Dernig are like legitimately arguing for their lives, saying the wrong things. It doesn't sound scripted because everyone's kind of flubbing and means this and says that on accident because everyone's nervous because there's guns trained at everyone. It's like perfectly imperfect in the way they interact with each other. And it's a dance between like, there's so many moments when they're, when they're, those two characters and those two actors are talking where you forget that there's an entire crowd surrounding them. So it's this very intricate and very intimate dance that

they're doing. Those are the moments that make me feel like the acting is out of this world for this movie. Yeah. And I think it just has this very lived in quality. And I think that's like, again, I think it's the era of filmmaking, but also just this particular film. And when I watched the dog documentary again, I began to think like, Oh, well, I feel like the Pacino character in the movie, I think it's, he's designed to be a more sympathetic character. Like you don't want him to die. You want him to get away in a weird way. You kind of like, yes, get on that plane and go to Algeria and everything will be great. And these people will just be your roommates. Like they will just, they will have to buy them new clothes and they have a new life and you know, whatever.

But it's, yeah, you'll figure it out. You'll figure it out. Also, I do have to say that right up until the end, and our listeners are probably going to be like, what? You never talk about the ending. But we kind of have to in this one because it's interesting and as a true crime story. But at the end, they get to the airport and there's this jet just taxiing. It could not be more stressful. Everything is heightened. The hostages are starting to freak out and cry. You know, he promised that he would set one free when they got to the airport and they're trying to negotiate who gets to go and people are sobbing. And then this jet just comes cruising by and it says modern air. And I'm like, it may as well have been called like, we are definitely a jet airline.

Like Crayola crayon. But it's, it's that whole airport scene happens. Everything happened so fast. I just felt very emotional at the end. And I wasn't expecting to feel that emotional. But every time I watched this, I am also the sound engineering of the movie. And I think it got nominated for something also the sound engineering. It was so loud and overwhelming in the way that you can imagine a giant jet, especially in the 70s, because there's no regulations just pulling up on you and you're about to have to run on to that. It was like so definitely exactly heightened the stress of the situation that they were in. Like we had a muted, it was so loud. And I'm like, are you allowed to like read people their Miranda rights over the sound of a jet?

Is that so legal if they can't physically hear you? God, you know, the guy that drove the car. I think he was, I think was it Lance Hendrickson who played that? It was Lance Hendrickson. Yeah. It was a young, hot Lance Hendrickson. Who's he? What's he from? Danielle Mayneau. Here about pumpkin head, millennium, aliens. All right. Oh, he wasn't aliens. Yeah. The pumpkin head. Pumpkin head. Can you imagine being in dog day afternoon and we're like, what was he in? Pumpkin head. I should have started with aliens, but you know, pumpkin head. He had a later life career, which is kind of fascinating because him showing up and looking young, he almost looks like a weird, he looks kind of like a

mannequin. He has such a perfect face. Well, everyone looks so different. Honestly, I didn't realize till after I watched the finishing movie and looked everyone up, especially Leon, because he was so amazing, that it was Chris Sarandon and that it was Pepperdink from Princess Pride. I lost my mind. I lost my mind. I was screaming events showing him IMDb and that he was married to Susan Sarandon. Like, I didn't know any of this. I'm an 80s baby. So I think I missed a lot of these 70s, like classics, because this is like a movie my brother would have wanted to rent. Right. I would have been like, it's boring. I don't want to watch this. So I was pretty shocked and excited. Yeah, it's fun. It's fun to go on the dive to find out who they are.

I like the fact that when Leon was talking both times, I couldn't stop thinking about Linda Belcher. And I was just like, he actually sounds like John Roberts doing the character of the mom that wants you to come see the tree, the tree. And I was just like, it was such a perfectly played, such a realistic character is amazing. Knowing him from Princess Pride, it was just like, look at this acting. When I watch and rewatch movies like this or, you know, things that are classics and you see people in the background, you're like, holy shit, that's that person. It is remarkable to be reminded of the strength of someone's acting from watching them as a younger actor develop into what you knew them from. So like the Humperdink thing and it's like,

oh my God, he was so good in that movie that that's how you tend to think of him. Then he comes out of the woodwork and you're like, wait a minute, he was already great. And this is just a testament to how he's grown and what he's able to showcase. And I think it's just that reminder that acting as a skill is always welcome to me. Right. And it's the reason why Pacino is parody. Between this movie and Scarface, I'm like, oh, that's where that comes from, where every, you know, the comedians who do parodies of him and the sketch shows and like, this is where it comes from. But it comes from a place of pure great acting and it had to be that good that he could be parodied. But it's weird to see like

the formation of that in a role. Yeah, I'm so glad that we all got to watch this movie together because it's, I think the crime itself is really fascinating. You know, just from reading and watching that, like I said, that documentary, I keep talking about the dog and just sort of reading about like, I went back and I read the original life magazine article too. And it's just like this very like interesting set of people who were involved and like, I thought it was interesting that it involved kind of this like, almost like a gay underground movement in New York with like, you know, that's how all the guys that met each other to do the crime, that's how they knew each other was from like gay bars and Greenwich Village and you know, that kind of stuff. And

just the whole idea that this movie is, you know, somehow funny and tense and is still talked about and is still really important. I just think that's a really fascinating intersection. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, it really is. I loved rewatching this movie. I haven't seen it in ages and I always find something new to focus on. I always find something interesting. You know, I didn't watch that documentary, but I did try to look up people from the original case because at the end of the film, they give such a brief synopsis like, you know, his wife and kids are on welfare and you're like, but then what? What happened to them? And you know, his partner got their, you know, sexual reassignment surgery and you're like, okay, but again, then what?

It was such a great movie that I, it made me want to know more about the true crime factor of it and kind of give the victims and the people who are involved, their due. It also made me wonder who are the victims here? Like who actually were the victims in this setup and in this crime? Because it's not as cut and dry as like, you know, they robbed the bank and they shot that guy. It's like they were kind of victimized in a certain way culturally and, you know, in a class, classist way. Their hostages were definitely victims at certain points, even though they seem to be having fun with it. You know, the character of Sal was a victim in the end. It just, I don't know, just made me really want to question more about how we conceive a victimhood, which is

probably too heavy for a movie, but that's how great it is. It made me really think. But I mean, because it's a true story, it's a totally relevant point. And to me, I think, up until the part like the first time there was someone shot one of the women, the tellers, that was shown crying once they got into the van. In my mind, I was like, what are you crying for? They're making it like, this is all positive. And then I was like, oh, that's right. They know all of them actually know this can't actually go. This isn't going to work. This something's going to happen. Like, and then not to like complete spoiler, but just the final moment that kind of ends the crime taking place was, I mean, if they, if you didn't think they were victims in the bank,

just hanging out, it came together pretty solidly in the van at the airport, where it's just like, wow, that is, if that's really what happened, those poor, poor people and like awful, just awful. They have that final scene of the hostages walking away. They don't turn around to Sonny, to see if he's okay or to acknowledge him in any way. They keep walking. And that's, I think that for me was when I realized this is going to be a trauma, not just because of the ending of it, which was very, very horrifying, but this whole thing for them has been a trauma. Yeah, they bonded with their captors, but, you know, they're not turning around to wave, bid them good luck. In 20 years, you know, no, not at all. Yeah, I agree. I think that that would

maybe kind of look at how, how much processing there was to do after that event, but the movie ended in a great place. I think at first I was kind of upset because I'm like, I want to know everything. Like I wanted a book or I wanted something, but I think it ends in a place where it leaves the viewer questioning as much as the hostages probably were questioning and it leaves the viewers in an uncertainty that everyone involved in it was probably feeling too. Yeah. I mean, I have to say, I do love little facts that come up at the end of a true story movie where they're like, just an FYI for you to leave with. I always love that. But the idea that although they did name Leon, Leon gets his surgery, I was like, this is kind of a victory in a way because

we know these people, even though they did it illegally and they did it incorrectly and they traumatized a bunch of people. At the same time, there is this little, you know, to me, I was like, oh, yay. Hey, at least they get that. Yeah, exactly. At least that happened. I know. I'm sorry, I keep talking about the dog, but it's like, I mean, it's crazy. It is like the kind of perfect thing that we'll just tell you about this guy. And like, when he signed the rights off to make the film, he was paid, you know, I don't know, like $8, $7,500, $8,000 or something. And that's what he gave her to get her surgery. So basically, he won. Basically, he did the thing that he set out to do, which is that to pay for his wife's surgery. So it's kind of that thing where you're

like, wow, well, then it happened. Like it actually did happen the way that he wanted it. That's beautiful. Yeah. Wow. It really is like, he is a very complex individual. Like, he's definitely like that character, you know, like in that way where he's out on the sidewalk, and he's kind of like preening and doing his like performance. That's kind of his vibe, right? He was kind of that person in real life. I just think that's fascinating. Like the whole thing is really fascinating. And they show like all this great footage of the, so when he got out of jail, he would go back to the bank and sign autographs and shit in front of it. Yes. And then there was a scene from this footage where one of the tellers that he held hostage was also in front of the

bank. And she was like, I can't believe that guy signed autographs. This is crazy. Like he held the hostage, by the way. Did anybody remember that? And I was like, damn, that is nuts. Like I was like watching it going, that is nuts. That's crazy, right? Out of jail, like after he got out of jail, he did that. And then that bank teller also still worked there like 20 years. Or I don't know why she was there because it wasn't even a bank or something. It was like a dry cleaners or I don't know, something like that. But she was she probably still lived in the neighborhood. Exactly. Oh, yeah. That's right. That is wild. Yeah, it's crazy. So nuts. Well, that was a great pick. I mean, that was a that was such a good movie. Love a true story. Pretty epic, pretty epic film. Yeah,

it was fun to watch. And this one I was really excited about. And it paid off. It was great. Perfect true crime. Yeah, I'm glad you liked it. And I'm glad that that we picked a movie you hadn't seen before. That's always the most fun. And I think that's also part of the reason why we do our podcasts. Like we want to introduce people to movies that they've either never seen or haven't seen in a long time or didn't think that they should see because it wasn't like something they would typically watch. And so it's just really nice to hear from you both and the way that we hear from a lot of our listeners who say like, I never even considered watching that. And I'm so glad I did. Or, you know, it's not usually something I would pick out. And I'm really glad I watched it.

Yes. All for Pacino's hot era. His young hot era. With the perfect like, what do they call that? Like their roosters comb haircut. Like, yeah, he's pretty beautiful. That young fluffy hair. This big worried eyes. So worried. So worried all the time. Well, thank you guys so much for hosting this and for basically coming to do your podcast on our podcast. We really appreciate it. So hopefully you listened. I saw what you did here on the Exactly Right Network. If not, new episodes drop every Tuesday, but you can also go into the back catalog. You can basically go find out what the movies are, pre-watch them, then listen, or you can do the thing where I like to do on road trips where you just listen and basically have someone

describe and discuss a movie for you. So you don't have to. It's the best. Also, Danielle Henderson's memoir, The Ugly Cry was just released in paperback. Congratulations. So go get that if you haven't read it. Also, Millie is the programmer for TCM Underground. It's a weekly late night cult film showcase. It airs every Friday night on Turner Classic Movies. We look forward to Vincent and I every Friday night to what you're going to pick. You're so good at this. And she also just wrote her first book, TCM Underground, 50 Must See Films from the World of Classic Cult and Late Night Cinema. And we're really excited for that book as well. The book is available on October 4th, and it's available now for pre-order. So check that out. And great

job, you guys. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producers are Hannah Kyle-Cryton and Natalie Rinn. Our producer is Alejandra Keck. This episode was engineered and mixed by Andrew Even. Email your hometowns and fucking hurrays to myfavoritmurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at myfavoritmurder and on Twitter at myfavemurder. Goodbye. Listen, follow, leave us a review on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Prime members, did you know that you can listen to my favorite murder early and ad free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today.

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