My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 347 - Hello and Welcome, It's Billy Eichner

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

On today's episode, Karen and Georgia chat with the star and co-writer of the gay romantic comedy Bros, Billy Eichner. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. You guys, it's a very exciting day today on my favorite murder. We have a very special beloved guest. He rose to fame on his hilarious screaming game show Billy on the Street and now he is starring in his very own groundbreaking gay romantic comedy, Brose, which he also co-wrote. We're thrilled he's here. Ladies and gentlemen, it is the legend, Billy Eichner. Oh, hi guys. Hi. Hi. Thanks for being here. It's good to see you.

You too. I've murdered many in my time. Hey, confess, confess, confess. This is the place to do it. So right now you are on your press tour for Brose. Yes, I'm in Phoenix, Arizona and we had a screening of Brose, my new rom-com here last night. Before that we were in San Francisco where we had a really magical screening of it at the Castro Theater. Oh, wow. Amazing. The historic place. And then before that we had the world premiere of Brose at the Toronto International Film Festival. Oh. So wait, how was that for you? Because I remember I follow you on Twitter and somewhere in, at the beginning of quarantine, basically this movie got paused as did all of life, right? We were supposed to start shooting Brose in early April 2020. We were deep into pre-production.

We were scouting locations and obviously we got shut down like everything else. And then we really didn't know if the movie would come back or if it would come back in the same way. And then a year and a half later it came back, thankfully, and we got to shoot it in New York last fall. It's one of those classic New York-based romantic comedies, but about a gay couple and LGBTQ folks and a handful of straight characters, but all played by LGBTQ actors. Nice. We're so thrilled. I mean, Toronto was one of the great nights of my life. We were all walking on air. I obviously didn't make Brose alone. It's produced by Judd Apatow, who's made some of the funniest movies ever, Bridemaids and 40-year-old Virgin and Superbad and Trainwreck. And I wrote it with Nick Stolar,

who's also made some of the funniest movies ever for getting Senator Marshall and neighbors. These guys really know how to make a really relatable, hilarious, heartfelt comedy, but they've never made one about a gay couple or LGBTQ people. And that's where I came in. Hey, you know a little bit about that? A little bit about being gay. I don't know much about anything else, but I know it would be a gay man. I've been one forever. And it's old-fashioned just to be gay now. We make fun of that at the movie, but I'm an old-school gay man for better and for worse. Toronto was really wonderful. You know, to watch the movie in a movie theater, there just weren't that many comedies, especially R-rated adult comedies, that get

big releases in movie theaters anymore. You know, most of the movies that get this type of release are action movies, or superhero movies, or horror movies, and those are all great. But God, I love to go to a movie theater and laugh with hundreds of other people. I think we've forgotten. I forgot too during COVID, like how much fun that is. And it was so exciting. You know, people laugh out loud in this movie from beginning to end. Straight people, gay people, LGBTQ folks, and it's such a fun experience, you know, to escape the world. We're in such a bleak world. So much to be angry about. So much anxiety. Social media is driving us all insane. We just wanted to make a hilarious movie. You know, we want to make a movie that makes

people feel good at the end and is uplifting and that everyone can relate to, and it's about the good things in life. So what was that like sitting in that theater? Like, because that's also a lot of pressure, you know what I mean? Like, it's a world premiere, and you want everyone to be laughing. But like, were there dips, were there moments where you were like, is this going to work? I mean, like, it must have been amazing. Oh my God. I mean, I was so nervous, you know, and we have had test screenings, private test screenings of the movie for months now, which is part of the process of making a major studio film. I mean, it's been tested in New York, Chicago, LA, all over the multiplexes, all over, you know, sometimes the audience is mostly straight. Sometimes

there are more LGBTQ folks there, sometimes less. And it gets, you know, we get, we've had a lot of reactions to the movie already, but never a public screening. We did an incredible screening for Pride Month that Mariah Carey hosted in June. No big deal. Oh my God. Yeah, Mariah is a huge Billy on the Street fan if you follow me. She's truly one of the greatest people I know, like on camera, off camera. She's so supportive. And so, Brose being, you know, a gay rom-com with all LGBTQ actors, we wanted to do something for Pride Month back in June, even though the movie doesn't open until September 30th now. Right. But so Mariah hosted a screening that would, except for Mariah, was all people who work for LGBTQ organizations to New York City. Wow. That was wonderful and very,

very special. Nice. So I've seen audiences of all, all kinds of audiences react to the movie, but having the first public premiere where then people can actually go on Twitter and go online and talk about it, it starts to get reviewed. I mean, that was obviously very nerve-wracking, but I have to say it was really thrilling. You know, it's just, like I said, I love romantic comedies, you know, and people make fun of them and maybe they've gone out of style. They don't release many in movie theaters anymore. It's something that has become a type of movie you watch at home alone, or maybe with one or two other people. But I remember going to see when Harry met Sally in the theater and Pretty Woman and, you know, broadcast news in Moonstruck. And then as I got

older, Bridesmaids and all of these movies, and it was so fun to go laugh with other people. Yeah. That's really what we want people to experience with bros. Gay, straight, whoever you are, however you identify, it's a movie about letting your guard down to fall in love. And I think that's something everyone can relate to. Yeah. Well, you play the character with the most romantic career, right? Sexiest. You know, podcasters are just dripping with sex appeal. Yeah. Oh, hard. It's really hard. Yeah. We're on par with Mariah Carey in that way, where it is glamour. It is sex. It is high-level talent. Mariah Carey is sexy, but she's not as sexy as a podcast. That's what we always say. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

I play a podcast area. His name is Bobby Lieber. He's, it's one of these very sort of like 2022 era careers, which you guys might be able to relate to. Oh, yeah. As a podcast, but he's also a writer. He's written books. He does public speaking. He's not the most famous person in the world, and he's not an actor, but he has a certain level of fame. He has a following. He's an LGBTQ historian. He's very outspoken with his opinions about life and love as a queer person. And then towards the beginning of the movie, he gets a call to be on the board of the first LGBTQ national history museum in America, which allows us to have a lot of fun and actually make some good points about LGBTQ history, but also poke fun at ourselves and our community,

which is something that I think is healthy to do. You know, this, it's not a sanctimonious movie. It's a big ballsy Judd Apatow comedy. We poke fun at everyone, including ourselves. And that's really fun. Yeah. In the trailer, the scenes, those scenes, because they're, it's just a table full of all different kinds of gay people trying to work out how you're going to do your business. And Jim Rash, of course, is hilarious. Is he representing bi people? Yeah. Jim Rash is a bisexual guy. Don Marie Jones is an older lesbian woman. Tia Madison is a trans woman. Ms. Lawrence is a gender fluid person. Eve Lindley plays a young Gen Z trans woman. And so everyone's representing different corners of the community. And all of those actors, you might know some of

them for some of you, they might be fresh faces. I am telling you right now, those scenes bring the house down like hilarious. They're all so funny and in different ways. And we're all from different corners of the community. And we're all fighting for the part of the community we represent to get more space in the music. Right. Right. But we do it in a very fun, you know, satirical way, you know, because the last thing we want is to be overly serious about this. Although obviously there are serious points to make about the erasure of LGBTQ history and textbooks and in schools and in our lives in general, which I think is a really something we haven't thought about enough. Right. Yeah. The fact that never straight people are taught LGBTQ

history and LGBTQ folks were never taught about ourselves. Yeah. You know, as I'm a Jewish person, you know, so growing up going to public school in New York City, where there's a large Jewish population, we talked to a certain degree about at least, you know, certain elements of Jewish history. I knew what the Holocaust was. I knew what Nazis were. I knew about Israel. We got Jewish holidays off in New York and public school because there are some Jewish people there. And, you know, it's not a, it's not a nuanced look in Jewish history, but it was something. I knew something about where my family was in context of world history, and there was never an equivalent for LGBTQ history. Right. I think people don't realize what that does to the world.

It makes straight people kind of ignorant inherently about the fact that LGBTQ folks have been around since the beginning of civilization, that we've contributed so much to culture. So many historic figures have been LGBTQ, but it gets erased, you know? We heard that she was most likely bisexual. Michelangelo, you know, Pharaohs in Egypt, you know, I mean, it goes on and on and on, and we're never taught about it. And when it does come up, there are historians who deny it. They say you have no proof. You know, there are rumors of Abraham Lincoln being gay or bi, which we deal with in a comedic way. It's hilarious in the, in the trailer. Exactly. And so we do have fun with it, but there are serious points to make

about how we've been excluded from the historical narrative and what that lists to people, both straight and LGBTQ, but mostly we're there to make people laugh and have a good time. Yeah. I think that's a really great way to introduce it too to people is through humor, obviously. Humor is such an incredible tool to open up a conversation so much more than like on Twitter with pure anger and vitriol, you know, humor opens so many doors. It's such an angry world. I mean, especially on Twitter, my God, the most vicious, irrational place lacking all the ones in context 24 seven. And that's, and I look, and I spend a lot of time on Twitter for better or worse than on social media. It's part of our lives. But what I loved about

making bros and the process of making it and also so how it turned out is that it is just a feel good movie. It has more serious moments. It has some poignant moments, but at the end of the day, it's there to remind people about the good things in life, making each other laugh, love, romance, sex, you know, we need, we need that too as much as we need, you know, vicious social commentary and action movies and superheroes. Also, I think that idea where as I was watching the trailer, when you see the structure of like a Judd Apatow movie or Nick Stolar, Nick Stolar, yeah, there's a formality to it. Watching you guys play within the construct of like a classic rom-com is so satisfying because it's basically saying that we're not asking whether or not we

get to be here. We are here. It's been happening forever where this is not about permission. It's not about anybody kind of like kneeling to anybody. It's literally like, come and actually be current with what is going on in the world, which is that there are gay people, there are trans people, none of the like, these weird politicians that are trying to make it a thing you can ban. You can't ban it. It is the world. It's who is around us. It's like banning the air and ban water. Yeah. But it's like banning style. It's like banning fashion where it's like, you don't want to ban these things. It's even a mistake to think that we are better off without such a large section of humanity that brings so much to the table. It's ridiculous. Exactly. I mean, it's

so silly when you think about it. And again, that's why I just wanted to put a fun, joyful love story into the world about two guys falling in love. And it's such a fun experience. And what's funny is, sometimes, obviously, I want LGBTQ people gay men to relate to it. Of course, I'm a gay man. That means a lot to me. But sometimes the straight people in the audience love it even more than the gay folks because for them, it's very funny, but also at the same time, it's unlike anything they've ever seen in a movie theater. And it's a really great mix of the elements of romantic comedies we all love. This is not trying to be an avant-garde indie movie. I love those movies. I've done a lot of sort of under the radar do-it-yourself indie style

comedy over the years, Billy on the Street, difficult people. I mean, that's who I am for most of my career so far. But this is a little different. I mean, it does feature my comedic sensibility very heavily. If you like those shows, I think you will like this. But I wanted to do something. I mean, I don't think it's a word to say that elements of the movie are conventional. I was going to say traditional. Yeah, that's what it feels like. It's a great mix of old and fresh. I love those Nora Ephron movies. And I don't think they're guilty pleasures. Why should romantic comedies be considered guilty pleasures and Batman not be considered a guilty pleasure? And you know why? It's because romantic comedies are mostly,

the audience for them is usually driven by women and gay men. So of course, the culture, society, the industry, entertainment industry sees it as a guilty pleasure because it's not something straight men, although I think a lot of straight men like Nick Stoller, like Judd Appetow, actually do like romantic comedies. It's associated with being, you know, a films for women and gay men. I mean, they used to call them chick flicks, which is something when you think about it, because these are just great movies. Like Moog Duck is not a guilty pleasure. Fuck no. It's not a guilty pleasure. You know, Bridesmaid is not a guilty pleasure. Like I hate when people describe it like that. And you know, I have to say

Brokeback Mountain is a masterpiece. I've seen it once. Pretty woman. I've seen 50 times. So you tell me what I should feel guilty about because I love those movies. And I want more movies like that about gay people. And I think the straight audience loves it too, because it's new. It's exciting. You know, you give people a fresh reason to leave their house now. You know, you need to give people a good reason to leave their house. And Rose is giving you, you know, the classic rom-com experience you love, but a very new take on it. Yeah. Well, there's something so comforting about, for me, about a quote rom-com, which is really just comedy with romance in it, which is life, you know? It's not that different than life.

It is kind of what everyone's trying to do in life, just like, but traditionally men aren't supposed to have feelings. So then that is supposed to be bad and guilty pleasure and and chick flicky, which is, you know, I think we're, we've all gone to therapy enough at this point now where we're starting to go like, okay, well these, we can see that these are dodges and these are actually, we're reducing things. Some people are reducing things to make themselves feel better. And we don't have to live in that world. Like that's the beauty of being in 2022. We don't have to play by those rules anymore. No one does. 100%. And Rose is actually about, in terms of the story, it's about two men who are 40 years old to gay men. They've been

openly gay their whole lives, very sexually active. There's no real shame around being gay. And yet they really, these two characters, Bobby and Aaron played beautifully by my co-star Luke McFarland. They both are men who pride themselves on not needing to be in a relationship, you know, on not needing to be codependent. They're judgmental of people who are in relationships. They kind of love the fact that they're both emotionally unavailable. You know, they have a sense of pride about that, which I think a lot of people do. Yeah, for sure. Yes, I do. Right, there you go. But what happens when two people like that meet and fall in love? Like, how do they navigate that? There's a lot of comedy that can come from that.

And also, you know, many poignant moments as well, because this relationship can happen unless their guards come down and they learn how to be vulnerable with each other physically, emotionally, in every way. And I don't think that's just a story about gay men. I think that's a story about men in general and women too. Yeah, absolutely. We're in a really weird age of being single. I've been, you know, mostly single for the past 10, 15 years. And it is, if anyone who's been single in the past 10 or 15 years in the age of dating apps and texting and meeting people on Instagram and social media and all of that, it has given people a way to be so passive aggressive with each other. With all the texting, you know, you don't have to

pick up a phone and actually speak to the other person. So it's almost like the person you're texting with or sexting with or whatever you are DMing with. It's almost like they don't exist. You don't think about the emotional consequences of that person. So everyone's playing games with each other. You know, everyone's looking to text with someone they might think is cute or something like that in order to get a very short-term immediate burst of validation without thinking, oh wait, there's a person on the other end here who might think that this actually means something, you know, right? Right. Because, and then it's like, you, it can't mean something. That's the big game is like everyone's cooler than thou. So it's just a bunch of people pretending they

don't want to be vulnerable while trying to be vulnerable. It's such a mind fuck. Everyone's fronting, right? Everyone wants to be tough. Then women, we, and we deal with this a lot in a comedic way in bros. Like it takes these guys, you know, it's not an automatic meet cute and then they're together. Like they play this cat and mouse game with each other. That is, you know, for me, it came very much out of my real life where these types of conversations that mostly happen via texting or DMing or on some sort of dating app, they'll drive you crazy because no one is willing to put themselves out there and commit. The second they are, they sort of pull back. Yes. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping, and prepping handled,

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as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton Serial Killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia, and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey, Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast, Killer Psyche Daily, in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. I'll never forget learning about double texting, and the only reason I learned about it is because

I saw someone tweet about it. And suddenly, it was like, basically, if you send two texts in a row without the other person responding, you're desperate and you're basically like, you're all over them. And I was like, oh my God, I literally send like nine texts in a row, and I've never thought about it, and I do not give a shit. But suddenly, it's like, oh, oh, that's, then people are interpreting that in a, it's almost like, especially being my age, where I'm dealing with all this stuff where half of me is like, oh my God, I'm so humiliated, I don't know the rules. And the other half of me is like, I have to get away from all of this, because how do you manage this world where the rules literally change every 15 minutes?

I know that. And literally, what you're describing literally happens in prose. I haven't done prose. No, we didn't get an early screener. No, no, no, no. Me and my love interest, Aaron, you know, we go on a couple of dates, we hang out, and then he just out of nowhere stops responding to me out of nowhere, which I know literally everyone can relate to. And Bobby, my character thinks they've hit it off. And Aaron, at first, it looks, it feels like he thinks that too. And then out of nowhere, he gets scared or is having doubts, stops responding. My character texts him 15 times in a row. My character is 40 years old, but has the experience in terms of intimate relationships

of like a teenager, because he wanted to commit. And so now he finally, and this happened to me in real life, this is based on a guy I met in my mid 30s. And I was like, one, definitely one of those people who's like, I don't need boyfriends. Everyone I know needs a girlfriend or needs a boyfriend. My straight friends were all getting married and having kids. I was like, that's great for them. I love them, but I don't need that. And then I met a guy out of nowhere in person, actually, not on an app. And I felt so hard. And that had never happened to me as an adult. And I went insane. Like, yeah, it just got under my skin. You become obsessive because the feelings are so new and so powerful. But the person's playing games with you and driving you crazy.

And, you know, me and my love interest in the movie, we do that to each other a lot until we eventually try to get over that part to actually have a relationship, which gets complicated too. But yeah, like I said, it's about two gay guys, but I think any person who's been single in the past 10 or 15 years will relate to a lot of this. My rule has always been if someone says they have a crazy ex, you need to ask yourself what that person did to make their ex crazy because we've all been great. I have been the crazy ex before because someone ghosted me or did whatever they did with someone else. We've all been the crazy ex before. That is so true. How can you not be when, like, I think people, it's hard to understand until it's happening to you how

difficult vulnerability is for people. And most of us were raised to avoid it, to like, figure cope and figure out a way to either be funny or intimidating or really, really hot. Do something so that you don't have to sit there with your heart on your sleeve. I mean, that's kind of everybody. The question I wanted to ask, though, oh, God, I could talk about this forever. I love this topic. This is why rom-coms are popular because everybody relates to how difficult it is to find someone and be on the search. But I was going to ask, did you have any say in the casting? Did you get to pick your on-screen lover? I did. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't alone, but I'm an EP on the movie, an executive producer, and I co-wrote it. And Nick

Stolar actually brought the idea of doing the movie to me. It didn't start with me. Oh, wow. Yeah, which is interesting because Nick is, for better or worse, a straight man. But a straight man I love and who loves romantic comedies as much as I do, you know, made them great ones. And he came to me in 2017 and we had worked together. I'd worked for him as an actor a couple of times. We'd never written together. And he said, I want my next movie to be a romantic comedy, but I think it would be cool if it was about a gay couple because we haven't had many of those. But he acknowledged he wasn't gay, which I knew. So he said, do you want to write it with me? And if all goes well, you can start it and I'll direct it. And hopefully Judd,

who he's worked with a lot, will produce it. And that's how it started, which is interesting. And then I took it and ran with it. Yes, of course, sure. But yeah, that's how it started. I'm forgetting your question. It was just with Luke McFarlane. Were you a fan? Had you seen him before when he got brought to the casting? Right. So I did get some say in the casting along with Nick and Judd and the studio. But we, Luke got the job the old fashioned way. And I don't mean the casting couch. If you're making like a ground, a groundbreaking gay movie, but then you're just as disgusting as any Hollywood producer ever would be. Plenty of disgusting gay people out there. Representation. It's an equal opportunity situation. But we had a lot of wonderful actors

read for the roles. The whole cast is openly LGBTQ and all the main and supporting roles, except for a few very fun celebrity cameos from some allies. You'll have to watch the movie to find out. But yeah, we had so many great actors read and romantic comedies, even if the script is good on paper, they live and die based on the chemistry of the two leads. And interestingly, I did not know Luke McFarlane at all. Personally, I knew who he was. He knew who I was. But we'd never spoken. We had no, I just didn't know the guy. And he walked in and I read with all the actors, even at the initial auditions, because I had to, you know, it's about that chemistry and seeing who I would click with. And maybe it was because I didn't know Luke that well, but there

was a little mystique there. There was a bit of an edge there because we didn't know each other. This movie is a huge opportunity for me. And it's also a huge opportunity for the person playing my love interest, you know? So you could kind of feel that in the room. There was a little tension. And there was a spark between us. Like, we're very similar in certain ways. He's a Juilliard trained actor. So we have that. I went to Northwestern. I was a theater major. We both love theater. You know, we love performing arts, but he's also a guy from like a small town in Canada. And he drives a pickup truck and listens to country music. And I don't even have a driver's license because I grew up in New York City and I don't listen to that much country music.

And so we're different in certain ways. And we just compliment each other. And it's one of those things that's hard to define, you know, but we just get it off. I think we both really love each other as people and respect each other and also scare each other a little bit, which is exactly what these characters are experiencing when they meet. They're both intimidating in different ways. My character is very outspoken, very opinionated, not afraid to share those opinions. Luke's character is more stoic, but, you know, in a combination of him being physically very beautiful, but not just that, being in a more understated way, smart and willing to call me and my character out on my shit from the beginning,

which a lot of people are sometimes scared to do, because my character can be loud and intimidating and all of that. So we give each other shit and we almost do that as a defense mechanism at the beginning of the relationship. So Luke just understood the part and he's really wonderful in the movie. He's so sweet. He brings so much to it with both characters. I think you think you know who they're going to be on the outset. You know, in the first few scenes, they're like, oh, yeah, that's, there's Billy being a version of the Billy we know. And there's like the hot boring guy that he's going to fall for. But I am telling you, it's so, it's much more than that. And the whole story is about these guys, each choosing a different persona to present to

the world to be tough, you know, to protect themselves. It's like their armor with me. It's like comedy and jokes and being really tough. And with him, it's this beautiful exterior and a six pack and all of that, you know, this sense of height and masculinity that he walks around with, that his character walks around with. But again, those guards both need to come down in order for the relationship to work. And that's what you watch during the movie. Yeah, how fun to get to make out with someone like that. Right? Right. I mean, I think it must be amazing for him to make out with someone like me. I have four nominations. Obviously. That goes without saying. He doesn't want to make out with a person

who's lost four Emmys. There's nothing. Only podcasting is better than that. That's true. I have been lost four Emmys. No, he's beautiful. But he's so much more than that. Like, yeah, he's such a great guy. And he's very funny and sweet and endearing in a way, in a very different way than my type of funny is. And yeah, it's a it's a pleasure. He's wonderful. So you were shooting this movie on the streets of New York City, just like you shot Billing on the street. Did you ever have those moments where you're like standing in front of the library or whatever going, Oh my God, 15 years ago, I was, you know, screaming up the street and yelling at somebody for not knowing, not being able to name a woman. And suddenly now I'm shooting my own movie.

Like, yeah, that it definitely hit me. You know, I'm not someone who usually takes a lot of time to appreciate things in general. I'm a gay Jew from New York City. So there is that. But but I did force myself when we were shooting bros seriously. We were shooting on the Upper West Side, right near Central Park. And, you know, one of the great things about bros, look, there has been a many gay rom-coms over the years. There have been many great indie movies and there's so many great movies and and series that center around gay characters on streaming platforms. And those are all great. I mean, bros can only exist because of all those movies that that came before us and like paved the way for this. I loved all those movies. I saw

many of them, the movie theater, because I grew up in New York and where those movies actually played in the movie theater. So I was very lucky. Right. Exactly. But bros is is something a little different than that, you know, because it's from a major studio, we had a big budget and we could make the movie beautiful the way that Nora Efron made her New York movies beautiful. And the James L Brooks in those early years with broadcast news and as good as it gets, movies like that, you know, those those movies are they're shining, you know, they're gleaming. And that's part of the experience. And I wanted to make a movie like that about a gay couple, you know, and yeah, we were shooting on the Upper West Side right outside of Central Park and Luke

and I are doing that witty banter rom-com thing. And I did take a moment where I said, wow, like this is this is all those movies that I grew up with, you know, this is Moonstruck and this is when Harry met Sally. I'm not saying it's as good as those movies, but that's what we were striving for. Working girl, all those great New York romantic comedies, but it's about two gay guys. And the whole cast is LGBTQ and so much of the crew behind the scenes was LGBTQ. And I did take a moment to just appreciate that. Yeah, try to just, you know, I'm always very grateful. But usually, you know, you're working really hard, you get caught up in the chaos of the work and the anxiety of it. But in that moment, I said, you know, you better take a moment to

really appreciate this because this doesn't happen every day. Well, I was gonna pivot because we're speaking of New York and the fact that you grew up there and this is, you know, being a true crime podcast, you grew up in a very storied, true crime-centric neighborhood. Were you aware of what was going on in Queens around you at the time or before that? Or, you know, did your family talk about all the storied stories that went on? Yeah, I mean, I remember, this is a little bit before my time, but my parents were both native New Yorkers too. My parents met at a disco on Long Island called the Jungle in 1976. Oh, that's right in the Son of Sam area. I think they were dating in the Son of Sam era in New York City in the 70s. So they would always talk about

that. And my mom would talk about how scared she was to go out. You know, you had, and remember obviously no cell phones, no internet, no texting, no nothing. You were going out alone. Yeah. And they talked about that and Lovers Land and all that stuff. And it was so freaky to me as a kid. I mean, freaky to me as an adult too. But I mean, that stuff really scares you as a kid, you know? Yeah. Horrifying. Well, we could talk about actually, we could switch over to you played Tex Watson in the American Horror Story cult season. Do you follow True Crime? You're not a fan of it. No, I do follow True Crime. I mean, I don't have a podcast about it. You can. That was a very intense experience. You know, I played a couple of serial killers on American Horror Story

on different seasons. The first season I did was called Cult. It was literally about being in a cult of what became a cult of serial killers, essentially. We were shooting people. We were stabbing people. We were putting staples in a guy's head. We were amputating people. I got amputated at the end. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Yeah. Sorry, all you amputation fans, you should have watched. You had your chance. But yeah, I mean, and then to recreate the Manson murders, which we did was very, I mean, American Horror Story, you kind of have to get used to doing all kinds of crazy shit. You're constantly murdering people in all kinds of horrifying ways. But you also, it's also your job, you know? So, you know, you're kind of murdering

people and then they call Cut and then you're looking at each other and you're all like dripping with blood and you're like, when is lunch again? You know, and just sort of making jokes, even though what's happening around you, you know, you're playing like a group of serial killer clowns and trying to make small talk on set. But in order to do the job, right, to play those roles, I mean, you really have to put yourself into the mind of someone who would get to the point where they are rationalizing, murdering multiple people. Yeah. You know, that's your job as an actor in those roles. And when we created the, when we recreated the Manson murders, you know, I'm there and yeah, it's fake and all, but I'm stabbing a very realistic looking pregnant

woman to death, you know, and that's, it's, it's disturbing. It's not fun. It's really, really disturbing. You're usually shooting late at night. The production design on those shows is on such a high level that it all feels very real. And then not only, I mean, the Manson, the real people who did it only had to do it once. I had to do it 50 times, different dates. Oh my God. Who had it worse really when you think about it? That's right. No one was being, they weren't criticized as they were doing it and basically told like, we need more from you. We need less from you. They just did. Yeah. They weren't stabbing a pregnant lady and then hearing, oh, sorry, the camera didn't work. Can you do it again? Reset. Reset. Your wigs falling off.

Well, Tex Watson was, I think, just as evil and horrible as Manson. Manson gets all this credit for being the evil like mind of it, but Tex Watson. Extended to killing. Yes. Yeah. He enjoyed it. Absolutely. I mean, I agree with you. It's, it's very fucked up and those shows are a real mind fuck. Yeah, they are. I bet. You know, on cult, I killed more people on cult than I killed people on the second season. I did apocalypse too. That kind of had more of a fantastical sci-fi vibe. I did kill people on that, but not as many. And it was mostly shooting. Like there's something about stabbing and stapling. Stapling. Stapling is just, who came up? Who comes up with that? You know what I mean? Like the completely insane writers of American Horror Story.

Yeah. Those are the people you should talk to because they have to come up with this shit like season after season for like multiple spin offs. It's like, all right, how do we amputate someone in a new way? Oh my God. It just keeps happening. Yeah. You do. You have to get yourself into the mind of a killer. Yeah. Like, you know, and that's, it is disturbing in that moment, you know, because you really do have to, you have to think to yourself, okay, what would acting is always about finding how you as a person can relate to what the character is doing, no matter how insane it is. So you always have to ask yourself, okay, in what scenario could I bring myself to the point where I was stabbing a person

to death? Yeah. Like you really have to ask yourself that. Right. And not that I ever would. But you have to go through those motions mentally. You have to do that mental gymnastics to get you there. And then you have to do it over and over and over again. Because like I said, some of these scenes you shoot for hours and hours and hours. Yeah. And that's pretty fucked up. Like I would leave sometimes and it would take us a minute to shake it off. I bet. Yeah. I was going to say, did you, when you were done shooting the, like all of it, did you have to go on, you know, get away from people for a little while or just go readjust to back to yourself? Yeah. I mean, those shoots are very intense. Those American horror story shows, they shoot a lot,

a lot of footage and it's all very dark, takes a lot of energy, a lot of focus. Yeah. I mean, look, and especially I'm a comedy guy, you know, like, and cast makes it fun because the cast is so incredible. And I'm sure you guys know Leslie Grossman, the hilarious Leslie Grossman. Oh yeah, the greatest. I got to do a lot of my stuff on horror story with her. Nice. And you know, we're mostly comedy people being Leslie and Ryan Murphy and all his mad genius sort of thought that was fun, that he would take two comedic people and turn them into serial killers. Yeah. Leslie and I kept looking at each other like after we did God knows what to someone killing them in whatever way we were killing that person that day. We were just looking at each other

like they would call cut and we'd look at each other and we're dripping with blood and the whole thing. And we would just be like, you know, we were supposed to be on the Goldbergs. Like we were supposed to be on a nice sitcom on CBS. Now I met your mother. We weren't supposed to be raping and murdering each other. Well, maybe bros is your answer to that is like after recording, you're going to, everyone needs to watch bros on the cast and crew just to feel a little bit better about what they're doing. There are no serial killers in bros. Yeah. Which on my favorite murder, you know, might actually be doing a disservice to the box office. Yeah, that's right. You need that. It's a very, it's a big audience and you don't know

those extras. They're living their own lives. You don't know. We could have captured some people in the background that have questionable. Hey, we shot in New York City and in parts of New Jersey. So you really never know. Do you have a true crime case that kind of grabbed your attention and wouldn't let go? Like we all, we all kind of have. I do. You know, I am a Hollywood guy. I like Hollywood and pop culture a lot. And another movie that I've been developing intermittently over the last few years is a bio-pick of the actor, Paul Lind. Paul Lind, for those that don't know, was a very famous television actor and personality in the 70s. He first came to fame on Broadway in the original cast of Bye Bye Birdie. And then in the movie

version, he sang that song, kids, what the hell is wrong with these kids? He's the original guy. And then he shot to national fame playing Uncle Arthur on Bewitched. Then became really rich and famous as the center square on the original version of Hollywood Squares in the 70s, which people may not remember. But in those days, first of all, there were only three networks. So if you were on TV, you were being seen by tens of millions of people every night. We were not in the fragmented culture that we are in now. And Hollywood Squares, the original, I grew up with a syndicated version with Joan Rivers and Whoopi Goldberg. But the original one, Paul Lind was the star. And that was a top 10 show. It's hard to describe. You can go and watch it on YouTube. And the reason Paul was

so unique is because even though he was not out of the closet, which no one was in Hollywood in those days, he was as out as you can be. He projected a very flamboyant, obviously most likely gay, comedic persona. And not only that, but a lot of the jokes he made on Hollywood Squares were double entendrous about being gay, which you can go watch compilations of these on YouTube. And when you think about the fact that he was doing this in the 70s, it's really shocking. He was really pushing the boundaries. And especially on a very mainstream show that was being broadcast and watched by millions of people, not only on the coasts, but all over the country in the Midwest of the South. I mean, Hollywood Squares was a huge hit. And for many people out there,

what they say is that Paul Lind, whether they were willing to admit it or not, was probably the first and most openly gay man that they ever led into their lives on the TV every week. And so he became very popular as this very flamboyant, not openly gay, but most likely gay personnel. And something happened actually to him between Bewitched and Hollywood Squares. And Paul Lind would tour the country a lot. It was a very popular personality. He also had a lot of demons, major drinker, big time alcohol, a lot of substance abuse issues. He was a tortured guy. I've spoken to many people that know him. I've spoken to Peter Marshall, the original host of Hollywood Squares, who's still alive and like 97 years old. He was lovely and spoke to me on the

phone about Paul. I spoke to Bruce Valanche, the legendary comedy writer. Bruce, one of his first job was writing jokes for Paul. And so it's been fascinating to dive into a very complicated man. And then so Paul would travel the country a lot. And in his personal life, he was very openly gay. And he loved to party, loved to go out. So one night he goes to San Francisco, staying at the very famous Drake Hotel, Sir Francis Drake Hotel. And he has a companion, a younger man who was a struggling actor named James Davidson. Now, this is long before the internet and all of that. And Paul died young. He died in the early 80s. He was like, you know, in his mid fifties. So he never got to write the book about his life. So a lot of this is sort of conjecture. But James Davidson

and Paul, at the very least, were good friends. And there are rumors that they might have been more than friends. It might have been a sexual relationship or sometimes sexual. No one's quite sure. But one night they go out partying in San Francisco. They both come back wasted, maybe high as well. And they go back to Paul Lynn's very fancy hotel room at the Drake. And he was staying on a floor that was pretty high up. And James Davidson is playing around on the terrace. And he climbs on to the ledge and he says, Paul, look at this. And he was fucked up. And he was messing around. And Paul thought he was just being funny and doing some sort of trick. And then James Davidson slips off the ledge. And then he somehow grasps on and holds on. And he's

yelling for Paul, I'm slipping. I'm slipping. I'm slipping. And there's all these people down below on the street, including some police officers who are watching this happen. And it happens very quickly, obviously. And Paul runs over and is telling James to try. Paul was not strong enough to pull James Davidson up and rescue him. And Paul's yelling at him to put his hands around his neck, Paul's neck, because Paul could maybe pull him up that way. But James couldn't do it, because if he let go, he would fall. And sure enough, James Davidson slips and falls to his death. Guys on the street falling off of Paul Lynn's hotel room terrace, the balcony ledge, you know, and guys on impact. And the police were there watching. And they came up and,

you know, they interviewed Paul. And I think because Paul, because it wasn't open secret in Hollywood that Paul was gay and a bit of a troublemaker, you know, he got arrested a few times over the course of his life, not for murder, but for things like public intoxication or resisting arrest, you know, he was a troubled guy. Yeah. Yeah. Rank a lot. And apparently, according to people that knew him on one drink, Paul was really fun. And on two or three drinks, he was the meanest person you've ever met and not really fun to be around. And so he wasn't known to be the nicest person. And so rumors started circulating about Paul. And I'm sure the fact that he was gay and that that was at the time considered a very seedy thing to be

like something dark and disturbing, that there were rumors circling that Paul must in some way be responsible for this guy's death. Now they did an investigation and Paul was never charged. And the police said that this guy was drunk and was like messing around on the legend fell off and Paul was trying to save him. But, you know, I think it's something that really haunted Paul, the rest of his life. And he always worried that, you know, just the rumors alone did damage to him because he perceived to be a very troubled person anyway, regardless of what actually happened. And it's not a story that I knew about until I started to research Paul. I mean, it's horrifying. It's like something you would see in a movie that doesn't actually happen in real life. You know,

a guy plummeting to his death off the ledge of like a very famous actor's hotel. He's always been really fascinated by that and about Paul in general. Wow. How sad that he died so young and couldn't, you know, write a memoir and come out if, you know, in fact, he was gay and actually live his life. Well, also just the idea that that was between Bewitched and Hollywood Square. So then he went on to be even a bigger comedic like presence with that on him. On him. That's exactly right. And I think he as boldly flamboyant as he was willing to be on camera, that doesn't mean there was a lot of self doubt there, especially in that era of Hollywood. I think Paul always felt that it was a catch 22. He became rich and famous as a personality because he was so flamboyant and

people responded to it. And at the same time, Hollywood saw that and said, you're a flamboyant gay guy and that's all you can do. And that's all you're good for. So you're not going to star in movies and you're not going to play anything other than that. That's what we're going to let you do. And you'll make a very nice living at it and you just be happy being that. And for many years in Hollywood, for all openly LGBTQ folks, that was the situation. If you were lucky enough to even get that sort of a breakout role on TV, your options were still very limited. And that's why for so many years, people didn't come out. People were often given one of two options. If you were LGBTQ, if you wanted the career of your dreams, stay in the closet, lead some weird

Rock Hudson style double life where the public thinks you're dating women, but secretly you're gay, which I'm sure they rationalize it at the time as being fine and the only option, but that has to do a number on your soul and on your script. Or be bold enough to come out and then be punished in terms of the opportunities you were going to get. Yeah, play parts that make the, you're the butt of the joke. You're always, I mean, to me, that it feels like that's the pollen turn was that he was flamboyant to the point, but he always had that like smile, that bitter smile on his face of there was a little bit of fuck you to his comedy that I really loved when I was a kid because there was, it wasn't, oh,

you're just the shopkeeper with his hands above his shoulders, but we're not going to talk about it. It was like, yeah, it was that, it was that kind of thing of like, I'm going to make the joke on you guys. You are not going to make the joke on me, which I loved. And I'm going to be myself, but I'm going to be so funny and clever and surprising that you're going to laugh. And that was very disarming in spite of the fact that he was pretty aggressive. And that was his secret weapon. You know, like I can be this gay, especially for that time, but the joke is going to be so funny that you're going to be laughing too hard to make a big deal out of who I am. And yet I do think it did torture him a bit on the inside, not because he felt ashamed about being gay,

that it's hard to say because he's not around anymore, but because he was an actor, you know, a very Paul and I have all kinds of strange overlap. He was a theater major at Northwestern, as was I. He was very tall and imposing. I'm also very tall. Very imposing. Just so intimidating. Very intimidating. I'm very scary, even on his, even in the zoom. My heart is racing. Yeah, this square, this square can't hold you. It just can't. Too big for the, too big for zoom. But you know, I was very lucky in, I mean, Brose is the perfect example, because if I had been born when Paul was born, Hollywood Squares was probably the best I was going to do. You know, and if I had presented that type of flamboyant persona, which I have on Billy on the street and other things,

that's probably as good as it was going to get for me. And don't get me wrong. I love Billy on the street. It's very grateful for it. I love it. I love it. But I'm an actor like Paul. I went to Northwestern wanting to do other things and not have to do them while living my life in secret or keeping something that's such a natural, obvious part of who I am a secret. You know, so if Paul was around today, he'd be able to make bros. You know, and it's just a matter of time being born too soon that he wasn't. And we do take some time and bros to speak to that because although it is a celebratory film and a first and foremost a comedy, you know, it's, it's, yes, it's, it's historic in a couple of different ways. And it's in the first this and the first that. But really,

you have to say you can't only celebrate it. You know, you have to say why did it take so long? What about all the Paul Lins and Paul, at least Paul was rich and famous. He had a great life. But what about the other Paul Lins out there who didn't become Paul Lin? There was, you know, well, there was one Paul Lin, you know, so in that, he got very lucky based purely on talent and the audience loving him. But there were so many other Paul Lins out there and not just cis men and all kinds of LGBTQ people who weren't able to get the opportunities that we're getting now as LGBTQ folks in Hollywood, because the industry decided to start welcoming us a handful of years ago. What about them? And why, why did they not get these opportunities based solely on the fact

that their gender is this or they sleep with this person or that person? I mean, it's so insane when you think about it. And yet that was the truth up until very recently. And so as much as bros is a moment to celebrate, you also have to acknowledge why it took so long and what it took to get us here. For sure. But I also think, you know, the thing it made me think of Billy is like, when I first saw Billy on the street, and it was just you on the street, just kind of very unapologetically being exactly who you are, where when you first start talking to people, you're polite. It's like, Miss, can I ask you a question? And then whatever you decide you want to read, however you want to react, and it's all really honest and real. And then you just run up

the street, you just run away or give them a dollar or whatever. There was this real assertion of self on screen that I think was a huge part of why that show was so gigantically popular and truly beloved is because there was no prologue about who Oh, this is a certain kind of show. And this is a certain kind of person. It literally is just like, here's a game show. Can you handle it? Catch up with me. Goodbye. Yeah. And it was amazing. It was beautiful. Thank you. That's very sweet of you. I mean, yeah, I presented that persona in a very matter of fact way. Yeah. You know, and and I just kept thinking and this factored into bros too when it came to like the sex scenes. We have some very funny sex scenes and bros and they're mostly

there for comedy the way they would be in any Judd Apatow movie, you know, explosively funny. They get some of the biggest laughs in the movie. And then we have some that are more sweet and more romantic. But when it came to talking about those scenes, you know, any trepidation anyone would have, I said, if Sasha Baron Cohen can roll around naked in a bed with a guy for laughs, and no one has a problem with it and everyone just talks about how funny it is, then why can't it die? Yeah. Yeah. And we've seen so many funny sex scenes for getting Sarah Marshall, which Nick Stoller made opens with this classic scene where Jason Segal is totally naked and his dicks hanging out arguing with his girlfriend. I mean, it's hilarious. The Russell brand sex

scene in that movie is hilarious. And these are part of the pun like balls to the wall, you know, no holds barred like unapologetic scenes. So I said, wait a second, now we're going to do a Judd Apatow movie, but it's about two gay guys. So we're going to hold back no way. And it makes it, I'm telling you, straight people are more thrilled by it than gay people. I think for gay people, they're like, oh, wow, that's cool. Like we get a sexy now, a funny, a big, funny sex scene in a movie theater on a big screen. But straight people are like, wow, yeah, how come we've never seen this? Like this is fun and new for us. We've seen the other thing a million times. Yes. And so that we brought that unapologetic nature that you're very kind

for pointing out that I brought to Billy on the street. And we tried to bring that to bros too. And, you know, I think that's important. Yeah, it is important. Definitely. And hilarious. I mean, I just, I truly can't wait to see this movie. That's right. I can't wait to see it in the theater because I think that's like, you're right, that experience of, of just having an experience like that where many people in the audience are going to be having kind of awakening experiences or like realizations of newness or why in 2022 is this, I mean, like, there's just so much to it aside from just the regular thing. It's congratulations. It's, it's really cool. Yeah. I thank you very much. I can't wait for you guys to see it. Yeah, it's a party. You know,

I've been to many screenings of the movie and it really feels like a party in there. Hundreds of people laughing together and eating snacks and sitting in a dark theater. I forgot what that's like. The big screen and having, having, having those laughs together is very different than laughing alone to your flat screen and in your house. As great as that is. And it's great. And of course I do that a lot too. You know, that's the world we live in. But I am telling you, it is so fun. It is like being on a ride. You're laughing together. You're being moved together as a group, straight people, LGBTQ people all in the same room together. It's, it's a, it's a really special experience. And I hope people,

I hope people go out there and support it because it's important to support LGBTQ movies like this. We need straight people to get out there and support us opening weekend. It opens September 30th. You know, there is this long standing belief in Hollywood that gay movies are for gay people unless they star straight movie stars, which this does not. So, so, you know, and look, I, I love romantic comedies. I love great comedies. Gay people have been going to see rom-coms about straight people, Julia Roberts and Richard Gere and, you know, Sandra Bullock and whoever she's with in any particular, and Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks. And I grew up loving those movies. And I never looked at them and said, I can't relate to this.

I'm gay. I always love the movies. And so, you know, this is an exciting moment for it to work in the reverse, you know, for straight folks to go and say, Hey, yeah, I see myself in this. Oh, but some of it actually is very different. And some of it's the same. And this is new, you know, in addition to being really funny. So I hope people get out there and get out to the movie theaters. I know it's something we don't do as much anymore, but I really want to send a message to people that funny is funny and that if you make a great movie that happens to be about gay people that straight people will show up to and the industry needs to see that. And also, I guarantee you a good time. I'm really proud of it.

Awesome. Amazing. Well, again, it comes out September 30th. We're all going to go see it opening night together. Everyone listening, bros, bros, bros with an exclamation point. That'll be the musical. You get to hold it up over your head, bros. Exactly. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking to us. Podcasters as a podcaster. Hot podcaster. Hot podcasting. That's what it's all about. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure. Boom. Bye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producers are Hannah Kyle Crichton and

Natalie Rinn. Our producer is Alejandra Keck. This episode was engineered and mixed by John Bradley. Our researcher is Marin McClashen. Email your hometowns and fucking hurrays to myfavoritmurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my favorite murder and on Twitter at myfavemurder. Goodbye. Listen, follow, leave us a review on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Prime members, did you know that you can listen to my favorite murder early and ad free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today. You can support my favorite murder by filling out a survey at Wondery.com.