My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 358 - A Socially Awkward Person's Great Idea

Episode Date: December 22, 2022

This week, Karen tells Georgia the horrible story of serial abuser and convicted murderer Shelly Knotek.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello and welcome to my favorite mirror. That's Georgia Hardstark. Hi, that's Karen Kilgeriff. Hi. Hi. Welcome to our show. Hi. Welcome to the winter wonderland. That's right. We were just complaining about how cold it is outside here in California at a balmy 64. It's gross. It might even be lower than that. Can you imagine Wisconsin if it was lower than that? They can't even fathom. 55. No, that's too cold. That's too cold. That's like legit cold.

That counts. Yeah. That counts as us being allowed to complain. And also the low is 40. It's 55 now, but it's going to get colder. Oh my God. We're basically on the East Coast now. We're basically in Antarctica. That's right. We're part of Antarctica now here in Los Angeles. I mean, I get it when people think this is dumb complaining, but for us, like LA 55 is a Wisconsin minus 22. Yeah. About how people react to it and how we feel about it. And the shock and the pain. Yeah. And then not wanting to leave the house for anything. I ordered in some soup. That's the laziest thing you can do. No, that's cute. There's got to be a can up in the cupboard. What kind of soup? Tortilla soup. Yes. Oh, that's the best soup.

Because tortilla soup, if you get enough cheese in there is also a little bit like dip. That's right. And if you put enough tortilla chips in there, it is. It's kind of like nachos. Yeah. I had nachos for dinner last night, like a child. Yes. It was so good. I mean, look, these days, especially, I think, in these trying times, if you need to comfort yourself with food, do what's best for you first. Do it. I'm going to take that and run with it because I like it. Okay, good. I've been running with it for about 30 years. It's a decision I made long ago. What's been going on? We saw Steven the other night and Steven, you were wearing one of those classic 80s sweaters that had a bunch of sheep,

and then one of the sheep was black. And I owned that sweater real time when they were first popular in 1985. Wait, really? Yes. Oh my gosh. That was like, you kind of had to get that sweater when I was like a sophomore. Yeah. When it came out, it was groundbreaking fashion. That was minor threats shirt, right? Was it? Yeah. Oh, really? That was their logo. We were like, it's the cool sweater at Mervins. There was definitely no musical, cool music association with it at all. In fact, I just had a flash memory of one of my sister's friends had one of those sweaters. It was actually a sweater. And then under it, she wore a little Peter Pan collar and a very thin black ribbon bow tie. Oh my god. Adorable. Yeah. That's very cute. That's very

cool. It was quite a time. Yeah, we had our exactly right office holiday party the other night. The staff party. Staff party, which was so lovely. Everyone is so, tell everyone how many freaking employees we have, Karen. I think it's 32 now. That's crazy. It's really crazy. That's like a big company. Yes. Well, if you're not comparing it to other companies, it is. That's right. I am. If you're comparing it to just us, the three of us as the OG of exactly right, me, you and Steven, and you are. I am. But I think 32, the reason I'm not sure is because all of it happened in quarantine. That's right. So this is like every once in a while, we try to break out and have a staff party or have a staff and host party or like get people

together of like, hey, hi, we're all on the same team. Yeah. We should be able to recognize each other in the grocery store. Yes. It was at this great location in Burbank that I don't think it enough people know about. No, Castaway. The Castaway up on the hill. And then people are like, what's this few? This is amazing. And yeah, we lucked out on that one. We did. We had past apps, which you know is my fucking favorite thing in the whole world. The greatest and really good ones. And then the actual buffet, the things that were in the buffet. I was looking at it. I'm like, I think we chose these items when we were all hungry. That's a really good point. There was tacos. There was like sliders. Yes. Pulled pork sliders. I ate a bunch of those.

And then there was like, what was on the left? There was Nashville hot chicken and chicken and waffles. Oh, both. Someone was stoned or hungry at exactly right when they ordered. And the best thing I don't know if you got to experience the cornbread. Oh, yes. Their cornbread is ridiculous. The cornbread and it's going to sound like I'm exaggerating and I am not. The cornbread each piece was the size of a grown man's, a tall grown man's hand. And it was the thickness like it was like four inches thick. It was like a brick, heavy brick. A brick of cornbread that everyone was like laughing like, I got a piece of cornbread. And then later people were cutting them up before they took them. But

like me, Hannah, a bunch of people were just like, no, I'm taking this. Well, it was so good. It was like jalapeno cornbread. It was so freaking good. I'm a freak for cornbread. So we had cornbread waffles. I love cornbread. It is the greatest. We definitely had a good time. And yeah, it was so good meeting people in person and not just on Zoom. And thankfully that afternoon, I had the idea for name tags. Yes. Because we needed it. That was a real brain. What's the, what am I looking for? Ironically. A socially awkward person's great idea. Yep. That's what I was looking for. It really worked because I think it's very difficult to

learn people's names when you only interact with them on Zoom. Yeah. Unless they're in your department or like you talk to them all the time. And then everyone's significant other. We got to like actually know their names. So that was cool. It was really nice. And you know, let me just say this. We have the exactly right network and all the shows we get to host on that because of you, the listener. Because we have listeners that have been showing up for us for seven years straight in a massive way. And it enables us to do this network, which is one of the coolest things I've ever done in my life. Yeah. Yeah. You're the fucking CEO and head of this incredible

network. It's amazing. It's pretty amazing. And then we just, we truly have the coolest stuff. I don't know, Stephen, anyone you hate. I'm going to cut this later. And I love everybody. It was truly the best time. I like the idea of putting, if we printed out what we looked like on Zoom for the name tag, just so we had the perspective, you know. That's a great idea. Oh, you're that person in the t-shirt. It's like, okay, there I recognize you. Yeah. Okay. Your hair's not done. No makeup. Oh my God. Slouched over to the side. That's right. Or we can do a photo of our dogs and cats because they're always walking around in the Zoom in the background. Like, this is me.

Yeah. There's always like Frank said, it's just slightly above the bottom of the Zoom line. People are like, who's that next to you? I just keep thinking about that, looking around at everybody and feeling so excited to like see people in real life and get to talk to them. But these are all people that are right on the other side of like these recordings, which I forget. So you meet all the engineers and meeting Edson, who also edits, I believe he edits, do you need a ride? I mean, I believe everybody has, but getting to talk to people who are like, oh, I think you're slightly a stranger. I know you work here and I know who you are and I know whatever, but I don't think I know you. And then they're like, but I know you because I edit your show. Yeah. I'm here,

your voice constantly. And I'm up to be like, I'm so sorry for that. I'm sorry for all the sniffles that you have to. And if anyone knew how many belches were edited out of every fucking single episode, you know, who knows, Steven knows. Yeah. We have made it so that we say sorry, Steven, after every belch now, like automatically sorry, Steven. Sorry, Steven. Like there's no just sorry, excuse me. Right. Sorry, Steven, because you're gonna have to cut that out. Yes. It's my little treasure. Yeah, exactly. Steven has a super cut of belching, I'm sure. Yeah. Somewhere. Sell that on the dark web. Also, that makes me think, let's keep in the very tiny, tiny George Belch at the top of the show. Oh no. Just as a fun, it's a reverse Easter egg.

Okay. That was a deep throat weird belch. It wasn't you actively belching. I wasn't. Because we're on Zoom, we have to indicate to each other that we're starting the hello. Yeah. We indicate and then don't start and then keep indicating. So Georgia just had her mouth open long enough that a burp came out. It's so fierce. Don't tell it's the end of the school year. It's the end of the school year. Okay. Leave it in. I love it. Leave it in. Maybe one episode, maybe this episode, we'll just leave all the burps in. I'm drinking something with bubbles in it right now. So that might be a mistake. I'm drinking some hot tea out of my brand new. Can you see what this mug says on it? Shalom. No. Yes. Really? I got a found a shalom mug

and home goods. Oh, I love it. Oh, they have that now? Yes. Oh, that makes me feel so included. So speaking of exactly right, should we do some exactly right network corner? Let's do it. Here's some highlights. Everyone on our network of 32 people and a bunch of awesome shows. Danielle Henderson, cohost of I Saw What You Did, exactly writes excellent film podcast is Kurt and Scotty's guest on bananas. It's a crossover episode. That's a crossover with a lot of laughter and a lot of love. Yeah, definitely. That's a good vibe. Listen, if you need some good vibes. Definitely. If you have bad vibes from your family in the holidays, that's like a good vibe podcast. Escape into bananas. You will definitely escape.

Yes. Then Kate Winkler-Dawson and Paul Holes will be digging into the Lindbergh baby case over on this week's episode of buried bones. That's a dirty one. I actually looked at that when I was looking at these highlights before the show started and I was like, oh, should I have to listen to that one? I'm so excited. Also, if you're looking for a last-minute gift for a true crime fan or murdering now in your life, you can gift a fan cult membership. It's available on MyFavoriteMurder.com in the store. It's a really great gift for someone who wants extra My Favorite Murder stuff and perks and bonus videos. All kinds of stuff. And to wrap up this whole area, as we mentioned, it's Give Sember.

Did it? I just want to make something catchy that's impossible. Every December, during the holidays, we like to donate money to all different charities that help people around this time of the year. So this week, we're donating $10,000 to Semper Fi and America's Fund, which cares for the country's wounded, ill, and injured service members and veterans. Thank you, veterans, for your service. One last memory from the staff party. When the desserts came out, they had full-on piccolo pizza attached to the cupcake tears that they were on. And I have never seen anything like that in my life. It was like crazy sparklers coming off the top of these dessert, like, tiered dessert trays. It was so exciting. The castaway's not just for old retirees in Burbank

anymore. That's right. They got a mean cheese plate, too. Check that out. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping, and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal, and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy Hello Fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes, and amazing desserts. Karen, January is going to be my month for Hello Fresh. I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much. I haven't lifted a knife or a

pan since early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and Hello Fresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. So get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Aresha. And I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Even The Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the

incomparable diva, Whitney Houston. Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva, we'll tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path. Follow Even The Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. This week is going to be my story. So back in September, somebody with the Twitter handle at Caitlyn Corp, like it's a corporation called Caitlyn, they tweeted this to me, Karen, have you read about the no tech torture killings? I just read If You Tell by

Greg Olson, and it was insane. Please read and consider this horrific and tragic story. So thank you for this awful, awful suggestion, Caitlyn. As Caitlyn says, this is a horrible story that I'm going to do this week. And it does include just a trigger warning. It does include discussion of attempted suicide, physical abuse, sexual abuse, child abuse. So please use caution and discretion when you listen. And you can check our show notes for the full list of sources. But the main source for the story is the book Caitlyn Corp referenced, which is Greg Olson's book If You Tell. Now, what's fascinating about that is the book is written by Greg Olson, who's a journalist that the daughters involved in this story, they contacted

this journalist to get him to write this book and tell the true story of basically their lives and what they lived through. You'll find it at the end, but very cool. And Marin, our researcher, she made a note saying it's a very compelling read. It goes really fast. And it is the most comprehensive writing that you can find on this case. So if you're interested in this case, you should definitely read If You Tell by Greg Olson. Okay, so we started in late July of 2003. And we're in Seattle. And there's three sisters, Nikki, 28, Sammy, 24. And Tori, who's 14, their last name is No Tech. And they're all together in a restaurant. Nikki and Sammy live in Seattle. Tori has come in for a weekend visit from their hometown of Raymond, Washington,

about a two hour drive away. It's actually very out of the ordinary that the girl's mother would let Tori come on this trip to Seattle. And Tori actually feels very uncomfortable being there, because her middle sister, Sammy, did not tell her that their oldest sister, Nikki, was going to be on this trip. And they certainly didn't tell their mother. Nikki has cut all ties with her parents when she left home. And so basically, Tori grew up hearing her mother talking about Nikki is saying all these horrible things about her. And basically, filling her head with all these things that she thought about her oldest sister. But now that they're all together, Tori can see that Nikki is actually kind, trustworthy, and understanding, and very self-assured.

Nikki and Sammy both know the reason Sammy got Nikki to come is because they both know that Tori needs their help. So the three girls do what their mother has long feared they would do. They start talking to each other. Oh, shit. And what they talk about is the horrific abuse that they have suffered at their mother's hands and the humiliation and the violence that permeated their childhood home. And they talk about the people who stayed at their mother's house and then mysteriously disappeared. And as they do their mother's years of careful manipulation and lies that were used to pit these girls against each other comes undone. And together, these sisters decide that it's time to bring their mother to justice. So they had to plan to expose their

family home as a crime scene and their mother Shelly No-Tek as a serial abuser and sadistic murderer. What the sisters don't know is that that same moment back in Raymond, their mother is burying the body of her latest victim in her backyard. What? Yeah. This is the story of convicted murderer Shelly No-Tek and the bravery of her three daughters, Nikki, Sammy and Tori. Shit. It's like so heavy already. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Okay. So when we first looked into this story and I was like, it sounds, you know, the way Caitlyn Corp told me about it, it sounds so horrible, so extreme. And those ones can be so awful to talk through. It's just like leave them to the bigger, right, more polished podcasts that can kind of handle that stuff. But there's a thing about this that

I'm very compelled by, which is that thing of people's violence increasing and kind of contorting as the years go by, if they go unchecked, if they find the right people to abuse. And it's kind of what this feels like. It's also fascinating because it would be very interesting to know if this woman would be diagnosed as a psychopath or what, like what is the actual story behind it. Like how do you become this sadistic? Or are you born this way? Right. So let's go back to 1950 and talk about Shelly's childhood. So she's from Battleground, Washington, not far from the Oregon border, which it's a quintessential small town. Everyone knows everyone. And there's a local named Les Watson, who's a big fish in this small pond. He's a businessman who owns retirement homes

and a very popular bowling alley. And in the book, if you tell, he's described as quote, quick-witted and could pour on the charm. He's a smooth talker and a master of BS. So eventually Les meets and marries a beautiful local woman named Lara Stallings. And the day after their wedding, Lara picks up the phone and is shocked to hear Les's first wife, Sharon, angrily asking, when are you coming to get these damn kids? Happy honeymoon. Oh, shit. So when Laura confronts Les about this, he admits that he did promise his ex-wife he will raise their children, Shelly and Chuck. He explains that these kids can't stay with their mother anymore because she's quote, depressive and alcoholic.

So Laura agrees to help raise her new husband's kids. Chuck is three and Shelly is six. There's a infant boy named Paul that is so young he stays with the mother, which is disastrous actually. So immediately Lara, when the kids arrive, Lara notices that Chuck and Shelly have a strange connection. Shelly seems to control her little brother who's very passive and quiet. She does almost all of his talking for him. She also notices that as the kids settle in, Shelly becomes increasingly cruel towards her new stepmom. Laura later says that Shelly quote, told me every single day that she hated me. I'm not joking. It was honestly every day. So meanwhile, Sharon's alcoholism keeps her completely out of the children's lives. And even though Les has been made aware

that his youngest son Paul is now developing severe behavioral problems living with Sharon, he doesn't do anything to intervene. And that results in 1967 Los Angeles police officers calling Les to tell him Sharon has been beaten to death in a Skid Row hotel and he needs to come and pick up his youngest son Paul. Oh my God. Horrifying. I mean, it's pretty obvious, but Skid Row in that area of Los Angeles, it's very rough. So the idea that a depressed alcoholic woman has her child with her in one of those hotels is just like no, please. So sad. Yeah. So Laura, Les's new wife, does her best to give these children love, compassion and a stable home, but they're all struggling with different behavioral issues. Chuck just could not talk

unless Shelly spoke for him. And Paul was described as quote, wild. He was like an animal. Then on top of that, Laura eventually has two more children with Les. And since Les is usually working, Laura has her hands extremely full. Yeah. But is far and away. Shelly who gives Laura the most grief, she does not act like a normal child in any way. In fact, she's scary. Laura says that quote, everything was a big drama with her every little thing. Shelly always looked distraught and upset, whatever we did, wherever we went, no matter what it was, even doing something nice for her, like giving her a gift brought anger. But that anger came out in disturbing ways. She allegedly quote, used to chop up bits of glass and put them in the bottom of

the kids shoes. Oh my God. When Shelly is informed about her mother's death, she has almost no reaction. I can't help but feel so sad for this little girl who's going through so much trauma over and over again. And of course, she's acting out and behaving badly, like no wonder. Right. That's the thing about this. So it's like, is this, it could be so many things, but it's like, is this because she was raised by an alcoholic where basically, none of these kids got their needs met in those early developmental stages where that actually affects their brain. It changes their brain when they're not held, not left alone, neglected, whatever it is. It does real damage. Is it that? And then all of that is kind of like

acting out when she finally is being met. She's like, she wants to punish everybody. Or was she always like that? Was it going to be like that no matter what? So her later behavior kind of indicates that maybe it was a little something more, more organic to her. When she's 15 years old, she falsely accuses her father of rape. This claim is taken very seriously and it's investigated fully and it is ultimately determined to be a lie. And Shelly's parents actually find a copy of a magazine called True Confessions under her bed. It had a dog-eared article entitled, I was raped at 15 by my dad. So then they kind of thought they saw where she got the story and where she got the details from. She gets expelled from high school and then the Watson's seek

treatment for her. They start family therapy. They're trying to support her and she's still acting unpredictably and sadistically. In fact, she actually seems happy to have almost blown up her family with this false accusation. But even still, Les and Laura pulled together and they tried to do what's best for Shelly. So they look for a new school that'll accept her, even with a rough behavioral record. And they find one about two hours away in Hoodsport, Washington. And she's enrolled and then she's sent to live with Laura's parents, so her new grandparents, whose home is closer to the school. But as you can guess, this doesn't go well. Laura's parents are shocked by Shelly's behavior. She goes from acting empathetic and kind to being a complete terror.

There's all kinds of anecdotal stuff in the book about this. One of them is that she advertised in the neighborhood her services as a babysitter. And she was very vocal about how excited and honored she was going to be to watch the neighborhood children so much so that she was willing to do it for free. But when the parents come home after Shelly stays with their kids, things seem off. One example from the book, parents come home to find, quote, their children in bed with their clothes still on and stories of how Shelly barricaded them in their rooms with heavy furniture. Oh, dear. So Shelly's stint in Hoodsport ends within months of her arrival after she makes yet another false sexual assault claim this time against her father.

So when the school year ends, her grandparents sent her back to battleground. And then the Watson's once again have to find a school that will take her. She gets sent to a Catholic school in Beaverton, Oregon. But only a few weeks later, the nuns have had enough of Shelly. That's really saying something really Catholic nuns are like reform school, especially back then. Yeah. When they what's it called? Corporal punishment. Corporal punishment. Yeah. When my sister was in sixth grade, her nun teacher. And so this was like 1982, took off a boy's glasses and slapped him across the face for talking in class. Oh my God. They're all about that corporal punishment. And these nuns were just like, no, we can't handle this. It's beyond our thing.

The nuns accused Shelly of stealing from her classmates and putting broken glass into a classmate's shoe. She ends up getting sent to Pennsylvania to go to school. There she lives with Les' sister and brother-in-law. And she apparently creates so much chaos and tension in her aunt and uncle's lives that they end up getting a divorce. But she ends up staying in Pennsylvania and finishing high school. And she falls in love with a classmate named Randy. By this time, she's grown into a gorgeous young woman. She convinces Randy to move back to battle ground with her. And in 1973, when they're 19 years old, they get married. But the relationship is never good. Shelly's manipulative and abusive. She lies constantly. When they decide to get married,

she forgets to send his half of the wedding invitations. So he has no friends or family at the ceremony. Oh no. She's unable to hold down a job. Her father tries to give her job at his businesses, and he has to fire her. That puts a lot of financial strain on her young husband, as he's the only breadwinner. But Shelly berates him for not earning more. In 1975, she gives birth to a baby girl that they name Nikki. But by this point, Shelly and Randy's marriage is crumbling under Shelly's constant abuse. She starts locking Randy out of the house with so much regularity that he's always sleeping in the car. That's kind of where he sleeps. Eventually, Randy finds a way to leave Shelly. And when he does, she gets her revenge by racking

up a ton of debt in his name. And then she completely cuts off all access to Nikki, which devastates him. So not long after that divorce, Shelly finds a new man named Danny, and they have a baby girl named Samantha. And Shelly and Danny hastily married just months before Sammy's born. But their relationship ends pretty much the same way as Shelly's first marriage does. And this is hard on Nikki because she's old enough to have formed a close relationship with Danny, and she considers him her father. But Shelly has no empathy for that at all. New men begin cycling through their lives. And every time Shelly demands that her daughters refer to them as dad. Right? As you may have put together, Shelly's not a kind or caring mother unless people

are watching. And then she's the mother of the year. But Shelly's stepmom, Laura, has serious concerns that her granddaughters are being neglected behind closed doors. And in reality, things are worse than she could ever imagine. In the book, Nikki talks about a disturbing, faint childhood memory of waking up one morning to her mother holding a pillow over her face. When Nikki comes to, Shelly tells her that she was having a bad dream. Oh God. So it's very, very dark and scary. So now it's 1982, Shelly's 28 years old, Nikki's seven, and Sammy is four. And that April, Shelly meets a man named Dave Notech. There at a bar called the Soar Thumb in Long Beach, Washington. And Dave is blown away by Shelly's beauty. He assumes that she's out of

his league. He's just as he is self-proclaimed country guy. And he isn't sure that his humble background will impress a woman like her. But he works up the courage to ask her for her number that night, and she gives it to him. And then Marin makes a side note and says, the Soar Thumb burned to the ground that same night, which feels like some type of omen. What? Holy shit. The bar they met at burned to the ground. Wow. So Dave falls hard for Shelly. And Dave turns out to be Shelly's type. He's compliant, he's passive, and he is someone she can walk all over. And before long, Shelly, Nikki, and Sammy move into Dave's apartment in Raymond, Washington. But he genuinely adores his girlfriend's daughters and everything seems to be going well until the

day that Shelly drops a bombshell. She tells Dave she's been diagnosed with cancer and she's not going to live past the age of 30. So Dave immediately proposes they marry on December 28th, 1987, and the family moves out of Dave's apartment and they get a new house in a remote part of town. She does not have cancer. I'm pretty sure I didn't even tell you that. But the cancer is a thing she basically uses and tells the lie about to get people to do what she wants or to get empathy or sympathy or whatever. And it comes back into her life whenever that's what she needs to kind of manipulate people. So insane. So when they get into their new house, the marriage, like all of her others, is awful. And she's verbally and physically abusive to Dave.

She constantly braids him for not making enough money and not being a good father. And basically, things just start to go off the rails. The girls remember how even after their parents' very worst fights where Shelly would punch and slap and verbally abuse Dave, he would never fight back. He would never leave her. He just waits for the dust to settle and for Shelly to kind of go back to being fun and bubbly and affectionate, which she always would do. So Dave is clearly trapped in the cycle of violence. It's like Shelly has different personalities. So eventually Dave lands a job in a different town. So he ends up having to spend weekdays and nights away from the house and then comes home on the weekends. And this arrangement leaves Shelly alone with her two

daughters most days of the week. And this is when something shifts. Up until now, Dave's taken the brunt of their mother's abuse, but with him gone, the girls are the subject of Shelly's abuse. So she has these very strict, insane rules around the house. Like they're not allowed to use the bathroom without asking her for permission first. Not the usual like being really clean and being really, but it's like weird, creepy, crazy rules like that. And if they don't obey those rules, the punishments are severe. Shelly goes after Nikki particularly harshly. She's the oldest. So she starts this punishment with Nikki called wallowing, where she makes her go outside, take off all her clothes and roll around in the freezing cold mud. Yeah. And then while she sprays

her with a hose. Oh God, that's so sadistic. It's so gross. And then after she makes her take a burning hot shower. Oh God. And what's really kind of gross and sad about that relationship is eventually she starts getting Dave to do it too. Dave is, is a victim of her abuse. But then also, if I can get you to be nice to me and do, if I do what you want, I won't get it. Somebody else will get it. Yeah. At one point, Shelly actually pushes Nikki through a sliding glass door, which of course cuts her face up. It causes her to bleed profusely. It's a very serious injury, but Shelly will not take her to the hospital. And this is the one and only time Nikki can remember her mother ever expressing any remorse for what she's done. Nikki later says

that her body is so bruised from her mom's beatings that she wears tights under her volleyball shorts so she can play on her high school team and not be found out. God, that's heartbreaking. It's horrible. And meanwhile, Sammy's watching her big sister go through all of this abuse and basically knows it's happening to her. It won't happen to me. So she's kind of making up her own strategies and coping mechanisms. Sammy basically becomes very skilled at sweet talking her mom. So it doesn't always work, of course. And Sammy is beaten and humiliated when it doesn't. After the worst attacks on her daughters, Shelly then snaps back into acting like a different person. She's suddenly doting and loving and kind. So it's just psycho house.

It's just like a nightmare. And that same mask is the mask she puts on for the rest of the world. So people on the outside have absolutely no idea what's going on in the no tech house. And that's not just because the threat of Shelly's violent punishments basically secure her daughter's silence. Shelly also makes sure that her girls are always dressed nicely. They get good grades. They have active social lives. She constantly volunteers and donates to local charities. And all of it is just to cover so nothing, it doesn't seem like anything's off with the family. Shelly's careful to only inflict wounds that can be covered with clothes or makeup. She's shrewd and she's committed to presenting herself as a wonderful, loving mom. And that's

like, to me, the grossest version. That's like when it gets into the evil. Because there are abusive families that it's almost just like inherited problems, generational trauma that you have. And it's just kind of like, well, this is normal to me getting hit in the face or whatever. But this is next level because it's like she knows it's wrong and is covering it up and continuing to do it. And it's getting increasingly bad. In late 1988, Shelly opens her family home to two people who are down on their luck. Her 13 year old nephew, Shane Watson, and her 30 year old friend, Kathy Loreno. So the first person to move in is 13 year old Shane. He's the son of Shelly's youngest brother, Paul, who's been in and out of prison. And Shane's mother is struggling with

addiction. So neither of them are able to take care of him. So he comes to his aunt, Shelly's house, looking for stability. He instantly fits in with his cousins. They're all around the same age. They all get along great. Shane eventually begins to call Shelly and Dave, mom and dad. A few months later, right around Christmas, Shelly's air quotes best friend, Kathy Loreno, moves in. Kathy's also at a very vulnerable point in her life. She is going through a divorce and she just lost her job as a hairdresser. So it's around this time Shelly learns that she's pregnant. So she invites Kathy to move in and help her with the baby. And that sounds like a great arrangement for both of them because Dave is still working out of town. Shelly already has

the three kids to look after. So in exchange for help with chores, the children, and eventually the new baby, Kathy's going to get free room and board and a place to get back on her feet, all while living with her best friend. And of course, at first, everything's wonderful. Right. When Kathy joins the No Tech household, she's a loving, brassy, joyful woman, and she's a stark difference from Shelly who sucks the life out of every room she enters. So Shane and Kathy being around actually kind of balance everything out and everything kind of starts to feel normal and even good around the house. In June of 1989, Shelly gives birth to her third daughter, Tori. And what Shelly loves is the way this entire scenario makes her look to

the outside world. So people see her as this selfless mother of three who is still willing to take in friends and family and need, even while her husband is working out of town. Like, what an amazing woman. Yeah, it's all about image. Yeah. Right. The honeymoon period doesn't last long. And soon Shelly's backed her old ways. And now her cruelty and her sadism seem to be progressing. 13 year old Shane is subjected to increasingly terrible abuse from his aunt. So again, her weird rules, you know, there's all kinds of ways you can fuck up in this house. And so he gets punished first, his pillows get taken away, then she takes his bed away. She starts making him go be wallowed alongside Nikki. So they're both out naked, rolling around in the mud and being hosed down.

He starts being put into that cycle too. Even more disturbing, sometimes Shelly forces Shane and Nikki to strip naked and slow dance together while she watches and laughs. Oh God, this is sadistic. It's really extreme. It's really disturbing. But the No Tech sisters will later attest that it's Kathy who takes the worst of Shelly's abuse. So at first, Kathy's a total Shelly loyalist. She completely believes Shelly's claim of having cancer, which, as I said, conveniently reemerges whenever need be. So it's completely fake. She does not have cancer. And she's actually very bad at faking that she has cancer. Yeah. So when she wants people to think that she's getting chemo therapy, she shaves off her eyebrows, or she'll cut a few inches off of

her hair in a straight line and then says that's from chemo therapy. So Shelly's stepmom, Laura, immediately calls bullshit on the cancer diagnosis. And she notices that Shelly refuses to let anyone but Kathy drop her off at her chemo sessions. But no one's ever actually gone inside to the hospital with Shelly to be there for when she gets chemo. No one's witnessed it. Laura suspects that Shelly's pocketing the money for the fake medical bills and using it to buy things for herself. And when she finally asks Shelly for evidence to prove that she has cancer, it's actually Kathy who tells her to back off and defense her friend. So Kathy has clearly been kind of slowly brainwashed and indoctrinated into this household and the way Shelly kind of

runs things. And Kathy believes everything Shelly says, this enables Shelly to cut her off from her family and friends. It's very similar to cult stuff where it's just like the slow everything's kind of great. There's the honeymoon period, then it's like those outsiders and those others are bad and we're good. Yeah. All that. When Kathy breaks one of Shelly's rules, Shelly takes away her clothes and forces her to do grueling chores completely naked. So just abject humiliation. Yeah. Or she makes Kathy right around in the trunk of the family car. In one horrifying incident, the girls remember Shelly and Dave who, you know, as we said, has become a part of this abuse. They force Kathy to slide naked on her stomach down a snow bank over and over until the skin on her stomach

basically breaks open. And there's a there's a trail of blood going down the snow bank. Oh my god. She also forces her to shower outside the house and only using bleach. Oh my god. So it burns her skin. She also starts controlling Kathy's eating. So she just starts starving her. She sometimes only feeds her salt or makes weird concoctions with rotten food. Kathy ends up losing over 100 pounds staying in this house over time. But as physically and mentally weakened as she becomes, she still manages to escape a couple of times. But Shelly always finds her and always brings her back. And they say that Shelly seems to delight in hunting her down. Oh my god. So throughout all of this, the children are forced to witness these horrifying acts of abuse and they feel

powerless and they know that Kathy is basically taking Shelly's hate and violence and it's sparing them. So Kathy was partially doing it to help the kids. Like, you know, if she fought it or did anything different, it could go to one of them. So she just would do it. Wow. And that's not to say Shelly isn't still violent toward the children, even to baby Tori. Nikki actually remembers walking in on Shelly holding a pillow over Tori's face. But as soon as Shelly sees Nikki, she stops and then holds the baby close like she's a loving mother. But Nikki doesn't buy it. And in fact, witnessing this horror scene kind of does something to her. She can now really see how clearly her mother is masterfully brainwashing and manipulating and using violence to control

everyone in the house. So in 1994, the family moves into a new house that's in an even more remote area. Kathy's health begins to rapidly decline. She has been starved and humiliated and physically and verbally abused on a regular basis. But now Shelly just begins to outright assault Kathy anytime she wants to. She pushes her down the stairs. She kicks her when she hits the floor. She throws her into walls at one point. This is insane and horrifying. She and Dave repurpose a seesaw and they waterboard her. Oh my God. Kathy's weak, her hair and teeth are falling out. The girls notice that her mind seems hazy like she's maybe gotten a brain injury from all this abuse. And finally, one day, Kathy collapses in the no-text laundry room. Dave is there when

it happens and he tries to perform CPR on her, but it's too late. Kathy Loreno is dead and she's 36 years old. Oh my God. Kathy's death actually seems to shock Shelly and later Sammy would say, quote, I don't think she meant to kill Kathy. I think she meant to abuse Kathy just like she abused us. She got off on it. She liked the power. She liked doing it and it just got worse and worse. So Shelly tells Dave he has to burn Kathy's body on their property and then they take her ashes and they just scatter them around the state. Like they just go driving around and scattering them. And then Shelly invents a cover story. She sits all the kids down and asks them about Kathy's boyfriend, Rocky, who is not real and was totally invented by her. She starts saying things to the

girls and Shane like, you remember him, right? Or we had dinner with him once, right? And she drills this into the children's heads repeating over and over. Kathy ran off with her trucker boyfriend, Rocky. They basically have to go along with it. If they question her in any way, she punishes them. So it's just like right. She left with Rocky. Yeah. So by this time 1995, Shane's also tried to escape the house a couple of times. Once he even makes it all the way to Tacoma, where he sleeps on the streets for a few nights. But every time he gets away, Shelly finds him and brings him back. And then in February of 1995, Shane tells Nikki that he's collected Polaroid photos from when Kathy was alive that show her beaten and starved. And he wants to bring them to the police. But sadly,

and unfortunately, Shelly somehow discovers that he has this plan, which is very like makes a lot of sense for those psycho controlling people where, you know, she's eavesdropping. She's doing it. She sees two people talking like she knows she's like manipulating. Yeah. Yeah. And kind of it's that massive control issue. Yeah. So she somehow finds out. So she basically goes to Dave and starts kind of seeding these ideas into Dave's head that Shane is a threat to them. Shane is going to do something to them. Shane is dangerous. Shane needs to be taken out. And Shane's like a son to Dave. So he resists this kind of idea at first. But Shelly just keeps on working at him and working at him and won't let it go. It takes some time. But Dave eventually goes along with it.

And he does what she says. He goes into Shane's room and shoots him in the back of the head. Holy shit. When Dave goes to tell Shelly that he's finally done it, she acts shocked. Oh no. So fucked. She tells Dave she can't believe he would actually kill Shane. Shane Watson was only 19 years old. So again, Shelly and Dave burn his body. They scatter his ashes across the state. And then to cover their tracks, they tell the girls that their cousins run away to Alaska. They also tell this story to Laura, Shane's grandmother, every time she calls. And Nikki and Sammy are distraught without Shane. He's their brother. They've grown up with him. They've gone through true trauma with him. And it just doesn't make sense to them

that he would just drop out of their lives like this. And actually, because of all this kind of compounding trauma that they're all going through in the following months after Shane supposedly leaves the house, both girls attempt to take their own lives. Oh my God. So without Shane and Kathy around, Nikki becomes her mom's prime target once again. But here's the difference. Nikki's in her late teens and now she is the same size as her mother. So one day when her mother tries to beat her, Nikki fights back and pushes Shelly to the floor. And this rattles Shelly and it also makes Nikki realize this is the time she's going to leave. She's got to go. And so she moves out. Once she's gone, Shelly starts telling Sammy and Tori lies about their sister like that Nikki wants

nothing to do with them anymore. And you know, just basically the hate campaign begins against Nikki because she escaped. Yeah. Nikki, of course, has extreme guilt for leaving her sisters with their mother. And she often writes them letters. But of course, Shelly intercepts all of them. So the girls never know that Nikki wants to get a hold of them. Yeah. And now Shelly turns her focus to Sammy. So in 1997 Shelly sabotages Sammy's college application. And that is the final straw for Sammy. She finally fights back. She threatens to go to the police with information about Kathy Loreno's death, unless her mom cooperates with her college application process. And this threat actually works. So Sammy successfully reapplies and she eventually leaves home for college. But

unlike Nikki, who's been completely cut off from the family, Sammy intentionally stays connected to her mother because she knows she has to keep that communication open to make sure that she can stay in touch with Tori. So that's Tori is okay. But Tori is not okay because she is now stuck at home alone with Shelly. Of course, she becomes the focus of Shelly's rage. Shelly beats and humiliates her. She does weird, crazy things. She makes her stuff her clothes with garbage. As she's beginning puberty, she critiques her naked body. It's around this time that Tori finds a ziploc bag filled with human bones in her mother's bedroom. Oh my God. Yeah, she doesn't know what to do with it. So she just puts it back under the bed where she found it and she stays quiet.

And before long, Shelly has invited another friend to live with them. His name is Ron Woodworth. He's a 57 year old military veteran who's fallen on hard times. Ron is by all accounts a super sweet man who really cares about other people. In fact, he and Shelly meet through their work connections to habitat for humanity. But Ron is struggling with addiction. He's grieving his father's recent death. And he's just divorced his husband. So Shelly is there for him and they become super close. And she eventually invites him to live with her. And of course, he's so grateful he really needs somewhere to go. So it's the cycle begins again. So for the first few days, everything's amazing. Shelly is an excellent attentive host. And Ron and Tori form a very

sweet close relationship. She has somebody else there. She has like kind of an ally and a friend, someone that's actually nice. She starts to call him Uncle Ron. But of course, all this joy and happiness begins to fade very fast. Within the first month of Ron's stay at the home, Shelly starts with her little insults dials it up to verbal abuse. From there, she cuts him off from his friends and family. She makes him write a letter to his mother, blaming her for his father's death. And that with the sole intention of sabotaging their relationship. It's one thing to like have uncontrollable rage and punch a person. But that is so sinister. Totally. And destructive. And it isn't really, it's not connected to her immediate control. It is very

culty in that way that you're, you're right about. Yeah. From there, it's a quick calculated descent into relentless physical and mental torture. Shelly bans Ron from using the bathrooms inside the house. She makes him drink the urine that she finds hidden in bottles in his room. Oh, no. She takes his clothes away. She subjects him to brutal chores, calls him gaislers. She makes him sleep on the floor. Of course, Tori is heartbroken seeing this happen. She loves Ron. And that isn't lost on Shelly who increasingly uses their bond as another means of torture. At one point, she makes Ron ignore Tori and act like she doesn't exist, which devastates both of them. And later when Ron tries to escape, Shelly uses Tori as a pawn to get him to come back.

And it works every time. Yeah. So at this point, Nikki and Sammy are in their mid 20s. They're trying to build new lives far away from their mother. And Nikki's still totally cut off from her whole family except for her sister, Sammy. So Sammy has to make Shelly believe that she does not communicate with her older sister. But Nikki never stops thinking of her family. And as time passes, she becomes more and more committed to bringing her mother to justice. Eventually, she goes to her grandmother, Laura, and tells her grandmother everything, the abuse, the torture, and the weird circumstances around both Kathy and Shane's disappearances. So in 2001, Laura and Nikki go to the police with a super detailed statement that they hope will kickstart an

investigation. But the police don't do anything with the information. Still, Nikki won't give up. She sees how much better life is outside of her family home. And she wants that for her little sister, Tori, and anyone else that her mother may have lured in. But meanwhile, back in Raymond, Shelly's gotten a job at an assisted living facility, which is a nightmare. Yeah. And so she basically is playing the part of the sweet, dedicated caretaker in front of everybody. And at this place, she meets an 81 year old retiree named James McClintock, who goes by the nickname Mc. And people notice Shelly buttering him up, being sickly sweet every time he's around, telling him that she sees him as a father figure. Eventually, Mc moves back into his own home.

But Shelly maintains their connection. She forces Ron to give Mc round the clock care in his home, and then basically pockets all of Ron's earnings for that work. Then around September 2001, Mc alters his will so that his $140,000 estate goes to Shelly, but only after the death of his beloved black lab sissy. So just a few months later, in February of 2002, Mc dies from a head wound after an accidental fall. So his death has never officially been linked to Shelly, but it should be noted that only Shelly, Ron, and Mc were in Mc's home at the time of his death. Okay. Yeah. So there are many people who immediately find his death suspicious, including Kathy's mother, Kay, who's still searching for her daughter. So now Shelly takes

her abuse of Ron to a whole new level after Mc's death, almost like she's punishing him for it. Meanwhile, the few friends Ron is still connected to notice there's something very wrong with him. This man who'd spent so much of his life being fun loving and bubbly, looks sick and deflated, and then they stop seeing him all together. And then in August of 2003, Ron falls off the roof at Shelly's house while doing handiwork, clearly has broken bones from this fall. But not only does Shelly not take him to the hospital, she demands that he walk onto their deck, climb onto its railing and jump onto the gravel road below. He does this reluctantly, of course, each time he lands, he's crying from the pain. When Shelly finally tells him he can stop,

she mixes hot scalding water with bleach and poured it onto his injured torn up feet to supposedly clean his wounds. Tori will later say that Ron's injuries are so severe that he isn't able to walk, and then he vanishes. Tori instantly knows something is very wrong. She asks her mother where Ron went, but Shelly's evasive, and she tells her to tell anyone who asks that Ron went to Tacoma. Shelly senses Tori's suspicion, so she decides to send Tori off to visit Sammy for the weekend in Seattle. So that's how Tori was even able to visit her sister and be out of her mother's grasp, which is like why it was so insane. This woman is insanely controlling, insanely abusive, not just going to send her daughter off to be like, well, go ahead. But the truth of it is,

they were burying Ron's body, and basically Shelly waited for Dave to come home from work that weekend, and she was afraid Tori would find Ron's body before they got it buried. And she also thought, because Sammy still maintained her connection to her mother, she thought that she still had full control over her. So in Shelly's mind, she's sending her daughter Tori to visit her daughter Sammy, both of whom are still really scared of her. Now we're back at the start of this story, where Tori is now telling her sisters sitting in that restaurant together that she's worried Ron might be dead, but she doesn't have any proof. So the girls start talking about Shane and Kathy. There's a lot they don't know about these people's disappearances, but they definitely

don't buy their parent's stories about what happened to them. All three have become convinced that both Kathy and Shane are dead too. So they come up with a plan to finally expose their mother's crimes. Nikki instructs Tori to go home and try to find any physical evidence that might help push the cops to actually act. She's learned the hard way that evidence is a necessity if they want the cops to take them seriously. So Tori goes back to Raymond alone, this teenage girl. She has to go back in alone and start looking for evidence that she can find around the house. So she finds some of Ron's belongings, including pieces of clothing that have blood on them. And she basically takes it all and hides it in the chicken coop outside. And a few days later, Nikki and Sammy drive down

to Raymond, where they tell the police their story once again. But this time the police actually listen. And the same day an officer goes to the no text house, Tori is immediately taken out of the home and put in Sammy's custody. And on her way out, she tells the cops to search the chicken coop. So after finding Ron's belongings, Shelly and Dave are questioned by the police. It's unclear what Shelly tells them, but Dave immediately confesses. He tries to claim that Shane's death was accidental, but he admits to disposing of both Shane and Kathy's bodies. And then in a move that no one was expecting, Dave tells the police that Ron is dead and his remains are buried on the no text property. So Shelly, who's now 50 years old and Dave, who's 51, are arrested and taken to jail.

Their bail set at $5 million each. Shelly is charged with two counts of first degree murder for Ron and Kathy's deaths. Dave is charged with first degree murder of Shane. But when it comes to prosecuting the couple, there's a big complication. The cops don't have Kathy or Shane's bodies. And Ron's autopsy is unable to determine his cause of death, which makes getting a first degree murder conviction basically impossible. So because of this, Shelly and Dave take a plea deal, meaning they plead guilty to lesser charges that carry less prison time. And Shelly enters an Alfred plea, which means there's enough evidence to convict her, but she's maintaining her innocence, which is like such a classic psychopath move, like deny it till the end.

Meanwhile, Dave pleads guilty to unlawfully disposing of human remains and rendering criminal assistance. He sentenced to 15 years in prison. Shelly gets 22 years. So Dave No Tech is paroled in 2018. And when he is, he reaches out to his daughters and asks for forgiveness. Sammy and Tory are willing to give him a second chance because they consider him one of his mother's many victims. Sammy later says, quote, the reason why my mom was able to control Dave was because while I love him, he's just a very weak man. He has no backbone. He could have gotten happily married and been an amazing husband to somebody because he really would have been, but instead he just got his life ruined too, which is such an incredibly generous,

empathetic, beautiful thing after all the shit that these girls have gone through. But she's that mature to be able to say that. Nikki chooses not to forgive him. She's simply suffered too much at Dave's hands and wants nothing to do with him, which is entirely reasonable, if not completely what you should do. In anticipation of their mother's release from prison. So basically they know when their mother's getting out. And that's why they reach out to journalist Greg Olson and they ask him to write a book about their lives in order to warn the public about Shelley's predatory abusive and sadistic behavior before she is released. So the book, If You Tell, goes on to become a New York Times bestseller and stands as a testament to the

strength and resilience and love shared by the No Tech sisters whose bravery offers an incredible contrast to the abuse and evil that they were subjected to all of their lives. Shelley No Tech was released from prison last month, November 2022. And I just want to say this here, if anybody needs this information, the Child Help National Child Abuse Hotline offers crisis intervention, information and referrals to thousands of emergency social service and support resources. You can call or text them 24 hours a day, seven days a week in over 170 languages. All calls are confidential and that number is 1-800-4-8-CHILD, 1-800-422-4453. Professional crisis counselors are available 24 hours a day. And that is the horrible story of serial abuser and murderer

Shelley No Tech and the murders of Kathy Loreno, Shane Watson, and Ronald Woodworth. Whoa, that was dark and heavy. I mean, good job telling the story. Thank you. Yeah, Marin did a great job, but I think Greg Olson did God's work getting that together. I mean, like, what an amazing thing to be like, she's going to get paroled. How is she not going to keep doing the thing that she was doing before? Yeah, she's still young enough to keep doing that stuff while the sisters are amazing, amazing women. Yeah. Yeah. Good for them. Well shit. Pretty insane. Crazy. Great job. That was a long one. That was really long. That was a long one. You must be sick of talking. I need to go put on a turtleneck and drink lemon

juice or something. Okay. My instrument. I'm going to allow it. Thanks for listening, you guys, and hope you're having an okay holiday time. Yeah, you know, go outside, take several deep breaths. Yep. Maybe go ice skating on your local pond. Oh, that'd be fun. It's cold enough. It's cold enough in LA. Right. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton. Our producer is Alejandra Keck. This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris. Our researchers are Marin McLashen and Gemma Harris. Email your hometowns and fucking hurrays to myfavoritmurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook

at myfavoritmurder and Twitter at myfavemurder. Goodbye. Listen, follow, leave us a review on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Prime members, did you know that you can listen to my favorite murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today. You can support my favorite murder by filling out a survey at Wondery.com.