My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 386 - FOMO is Ancient

Episode Date: July 27, 2023

This week, Karen and Georgia cover the "Paper Bag Killer" and the Dancing Plague of 1518.For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast, Killer Psychie Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the cold-butted killers you read about in the news. Listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast Killer Psychie Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. [♪ Music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the background, music playing in the Hello. And welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstar. That's Karen Kylgaraff.

I think we should try to draw that out for like 16 notes if we can. Like just keep going like opera style. I was impressed because I like that's the first time we actually set it at the same time. That was why I was like, oh yeah. And we did it kind of fast. Sometimes you do the conductor, the conductor hands a couple times. I do. It's only taken a seven and a half years to get in sync on the intro. I think that's, we've put in minimum 70,000 hours, which is the recommendation for podcasting. Really practice guys. It's important. It's important stuff.

You can't just wing it. You've got to go to college, get all those college credits for podcasting. Yeah, get those and then drop out. But you still got your loan and that's never going to be forgiven. So just keep that forever. Too bad it wasn't a PPP loan, friends.

But things that they forgive so quickly. Oh, truly, truly. You were about to tell me about astrology, something about it. Well, you know, over on TikTok, I follow a lot of, or seem to get in my algorithm, a lot of astrology talk because I do enjoy it. And right now, and here's the thing, you should go and listen to people who know what they're talking about. All I was saying and the whole message is, this is a big changing time.

So this stuff, and it just just weird and interesting to me, when the stuff that's happening around us, like basically the full meltdown of structures and systems that we're used to, is somehow reflected in like they say when the astrology people are able to go like, the same thing happened 59 years ago when this happened, I almost said the French Revolution,

but I know for a fact that didn't happen 59 years ago. But is that kind of vibe where it's like this time that starts two days, which is the day we're recording not the day you're listening probably. Yeah. Kicks off. I want to say new moon probably wrong. I know the word nodes is involved. But it's essentially just if you hang on, you'll be dragged. So let go, let go, let go. I like that idea. If you hang on, you'll be dragged. Yeah. So we're entering a chaotic time. And the best thing to do is acknowledge it

and not try to fight against it, basically. Yeah, can't fight it, don't fight it. It'll all be fine. And just work on yourself. That seems to be the message of everybody's. You have basically between now and the end of December to manifest the life you want. So just start focusing on yourself and the life you want because that's the one thing you can control. Okay. All right, that feels like a long time. It's July, right? And then, yeah, from July to December, also though, what I just said can be applied to any

point of time in the past or into the future because it's always kind of the truth. Yeah, but it's nice to hear someone say it, you know, because then you're like other than yourself say it. It's like right. Nice. Someone else to do it because otherwise I won't do it. You know what I mean? Yes, for sure. It's also nice to think about the people that poo, poo, astrology, or whatever. Don't seem to understand that it really, there's a lot to be found in kind of hand-to-down wisdom of the ages where they basically say, hey, we've been tracking this for several thousand years,

and this is a thing that comes up around this thing. Right. You don't have to believe it, and you don't have to be an expert in it to kind of look at it and go, oh, okay, well, maybe I'll consider that. Yeah. Since everything is kind of random and chaos, anyway. Moon phases are real. Me being a Gemini and not affecting me might not be,

but there are moon phases of the moon, and you can't deny that, try it. Right, and you shouldn't deny it because those phases of the moon affect the tides, which is 70% of this planet, and some very large percent of your body is water. That's right. So there's things being affected,

whether you want that to be happening or not. That's right. So there's things being affected. Yeah. Whether you whether you want that to be happening or not. That's right. I only have one one thing I want it like shout out. The most wholesome documentary I've ever watched is the WAM documentary. Oh yeah. Oh my god. Did you watch it? I haven't but Chris Fairbanks is talking about it over on Do You Need a Ride. And we had a full conversation, so I was like, wait, what? And yeah, that's right. Yeah, and people love it. It's so like, it's so pure and sweet. And it's just these two boys who've known each other since they were kids, like making

it big. And you know, just, it's just really sweet and lovely and it made give me a whole new respect for George Michael because he's like 19 writing and producing these hit fucking songs yeah having no experience whatsoever and yeah it's just it's a really sweet documentary. Also you know as George Michael's career went on the when he like say played at the Queen, that huge Queen concert and basically did Freddie Mercury's part where you were suddenly like, oh, this guy is a gigantic vocal legend. And in that moment when they showed him a documentary, I just turned events and I go like, he shouldn't be able to sing like this. He has no training. It's not like, he had no training.

I don't think he had any training. Oh, shit. Or the day it was like very minimal. And he suddenly has this voice. And it's like, okay, this is definitely like bigger than, bigger than you. Yeah. If I were religious, it's very much not.

It's like a gift from God, you know what I mean? Yeah. And it will. And, or you can think of it as like fate where some people are born and they're fated to do certain things. And they don't need like the normal routines to get there. And also that's, that's a thing that I think is part of the reason we are where we are today. The arts are not respected. We live in, I should say, in America, because capitalism has taken over to the degree where it's like

cut the fat of anything that, you know, the big boys decide isn't important to them. Right. But the arts, all everything that that includes, including outside or artists and people who make their own way, are like one of the most important things to humanity. So it's just, I think that's a good thing to keep in mind while they're trying to say that actors and writers aren't important in show business. So it's like good luck with show business

after you get rid of actors and writers. I mean, it's like the most necessary, one of the most necessary parts of it, you would argue, not the CEO of the fucking company. It's the fucking point of it. It's the only reason all those CEOs have jobs is because of the talented people that they're trying to basically put into poverty so that they can have a fourth yacht. Like, fuck those guys for real.

I mean, billionaires should not be a thing, especially multiple ones of them. There's so many now. They're just, they've gone unchecked. They have. Meanwhile, rent is, it's unlivable. What average people are living off of and being paid is not equal to what inflation has done to the economy. It's not a livable fucking world anymore.

Right, it's just, it's really wild. Well, and luckily astrology supports me when I say it's going to change. It's all going to change. Here's an important change that people that listen to this podcast really care about that's really major. They made an arrest in the case of the Long Island serial killer. I am obsessed. How wild.

And how like, I have to say, and I guess it's like this for many cases that are old, how hopeless I felt about that case. Yeah. And then I got, I got a series of texts at 7 a.m. from people and I'm like, oh, yay, it's another one. Like they just keep breaking these cases. Unbelievable. And it's so, yeah. So we're one. Like they just keep breaking these cases. Unbelievable. And it's so, yeah.

So we're recording this when he just got arrested. So who the fuck knows? It's exciting. Like what's gonna happen in a week or so when this goes on, like we don't even know. But I've been reading in the way they caught him with the fucking cell phone triangulation shit is like fascinating and so rad.

And the pizza crust? The pizza crust. The DNA swabbed. Like, I don't even eat, who eats pizza like that? Like, it's just, you mean, doesn't eat the crust? No one I know. No, what is he like licking the crust?

It's just like, it's like such a tiny amount of DNA they're able to get is fascinating. It's the holder. But it's the holder. Oh, is it the fingerprints? I don't know. I thought it was a teeth. Oh, is it the fingerprints? I don't know. I thought it was a teeth. Oh, he's eating pizza backwards.

He should be arrested. Outside in? Yeah, that's bad news. That's bad news. You know, my dad eats pizza by scraping. He doesn't want the carbs of the crust, so he scrapes the sauce and toppings and cheese off and eats that.

And so he's just always left with this plateful of empty crusts. Like sad. Marty, Marty, live a little. You're okay. I think he just decided to start eating the crust to live a little. Like he just like turned a new leaf and was like,

you know what, I'm 77, I'm eating the fucking crust. A fat and up buddy, it's time. You're okay. Oh. Every picture in your life is you skinny. You've done it. Truly. Yeah.

So him getting caught is amazing. I can't wait for all these families to finally have answers. And, oh, what a monster. What a monster. Also, it's very interesting. And I think this is the interesting thing to me about the attention these cases get now and the way they're laying out. It's going to be very interesting to see how that department handles all of it, especially

in comparison to the Idaho form orders, because the police sheriff, all those people in Moscow Idaho handled the communication part of those of that arrest and what they were doing and what they could say and what they couldn't say it was like going to school and I just hope that that is the thing that continues going forward as opposed to transparency. It's transparency, but it's also instructing people you can't have this answer right now. It's not known. Right. Right. These little factoids came out because the police get to say what led them to this moment. Yeah. But if all of that doesn't prove out, then that's where we'll be at the end of the trial. Like basically kind of getting interested in the rest of the story, which I think I've said it before when the Idaho for a rest took place that I was just so blown away by that DA and that all the law enforcement officers

that were speaking on behalf of the case because they were just like laying it out. Yeah, not sensationalizing anything and just making it. Yeah. And like instructing the press basically, you can ask anything you want, we can't tell you. Right. And you should understand that. Right. And this is how we're doing it going forward. It's an active case until it's ended. So I just want to know more though. I'm fighting too. I'm wanting to know everything. Tell me everything. And knowing that that's, you know, a private matter for these victims families to be able to process that and has nothing to do with me or Reddit or the fucking internet. So, you know, yeah.

Right. I know. That's the true crime, the true crime conundrum, I guess. The true crime of it all. Yeah. It also makes me think of that, the Long Island serial killer made for TV movie. I don't think it was a series that, I think it's called Lost Girls, and our friend Liz Carbis directed it.

And that mother who fought all the way through, didn't give a shit, but like that's the person that I'm kind of holding of place in my heart for because what all those families went through and the way they had to fight and got ignored and got told to get out of our area. This is not your area.

Like so disgusting and horrible. it's just gonna be, it's just gonna be amazing to watch that and know that those people at least have a little bit of peace right now. Well, the monster can't call them anymore. You know, he was calling them from the victim's cell phone. Like, what, I mean. And is that one of the triangulation part you were talking about?

One of them, one of many, yeah. Yeah, like it's just like the depravity of a person who would do any of this obviously, but then I mean, yeah, it's just so hard to look at this picture of this man and like the depths of evil, you'll never understand that. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. the evil you will never will never understand that. Yeah. Yeah. Um anyway. That's our show should be go dip quickly back into astrology before we go out into our other topics. Just you just get

move get it move in. Let's do it. Let's do exactly right corner time. We have a podcast network called exactly right. Here's some updates. Here's some stuff. And by the way, if you are an astrologer, please forgive me for just trying to throw down literally what was at the top of my head to tell Georgia. That's how a lot of us talk about stuff. We try to approximate the millions of videos we've watched. We do our best. We're not trying to teach a course.

We really are not in any way. In any way. Okay. So this week on the exactly right network, if you miss this, the first episode of Ghosted by Raaz Hernandez starring Georgia Hardstark is now available. And then episode two with the great busy Phillips is now available. And those episodes will be coming out every Monday. Please give Ross a follow wherever you like to listen.

Great review and subscribe. Any podcast you love, it helps them out so much. And I'm sure Ross Hernandez would love that. And then on buried bones, Kate Weikler Dawson and Paul Holes discussed the Crumbles murders to separate incidents which took place on the beaches of England in the 1920s. And over in the MFM merch store, if you're looking for some silky PJs, we have them for you featuring illustrations by Rachel Flannery and those are illustrations are of our pets. They're very cute, I on a pair and they're adorable. Yeah. our pets. They're very cute. I on a pair and they're adorable. Yeah.

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And now true crime. Now the true crime. Do you go first? Yes. Okay, good. Now, listen, look, look. So today's story, I found it when I was staying with my dad over the holidays. And I try not to look at my phone like before I go to bed. So my dad has a stack of books in a guest room on the nightstand that have been there since I think 1989. There's one about golf. There's like musings about golf. Yeah. There's, I'm pretty sure that one about sea biscuits on there. A lot of, a lot of those kinds of books. A large, hard, hard back ones, the big ones with the like shiny covers.

I'm like, Ramahaad those too, for the same ones for years. Kind of dusty, but they're sitting there and I think it was like, you know, one night, a while ago, I realized, oh, there's plenty of good reading. My dad's a big reader. And before the Kindle came out and he does everything on Kindle now, but my parents had tons of books, so I'm like, oh, I'll just go to sleep reading these books. And last time I picked up a book and it was called

San Francisco Homicide Inspector 5 Henry 7, written by retired detective Frank Falzone. And when I opened the book, it was, the inside was dedicated from Frank Falzone. And when I opened the book, it was, the inside was dedicated from Frank Falzone to my cousin Marty, who used to be. Right, yeah, wow. Marty. Marty.

And he I talked about long ago when we covered the Nightstalker, Marty and his partner, who was Frank Falzone's son. Yeah. They were the first cops on scene when the night soccer broke into that house in the marina. Right. And they took fingerprints that led to Richard Ramirez being identified later on.

So that was that Thanksgiving where he told that story at the dinner table and I was like, how in the world do we not know this already? Like, what are you doing? So it was kind of funny. I'm like, oh, perfect. I'll just read a series of cases Frank Falzone worked on during his career as a homicide detective.

This is great reading to go to sleep, too. And in that book, I found this case that I really found compelling. So today, I'm going to tell you a story. It starts in San Francisco in 1973. So just for a little perspective, basically in 1967 was the year people started going in mass numbers to San Francisco for, you know, flower children, counter culture.

Basically, they all went to the Haydash, buried district, lured by the promise of free love and free drugs, and a chance to make a difference in, buried district, lured by the promise of free love and free drugs, and a chance to make a difference in both the fight for civil rights in this country, and also to protest the war in Vietnam. It peaked in 1969 with the summer of love, and in the years after San Francisco

was a little bit of a hangover mode that was kind of the naivete turning to a jaded knowing of like, oh, there's no such thing as free drugs or free sex or, you know, like this fight is going to be harder than just all of us sitting in the park beyond acid. And I think that's when Hell's Angels showed up and we're like, things got dark at that point. Yeah.

Well, someone had to be providing the free drug. Right. And so basically, you know, all those connections, it was like, that's a nice concept, but there's always more to it. So 1973, the idealism of the hippie culture still prevails in San Francisco, and the city continues to draw new residents from all over the world. But of course, the city underside is really starting to show. And it's in the midst of this cultural awakening and reawakening that a little known killer, terrified San Francisco's, was seemingly random and very public attacks.

This is the story of the paper bag killer. Ooh, yeah, I don't think I know this one. I had never heard of it myself. And I thought I kind of knew of like any kind of a story like this from up there, but it was a lesser known and it was happening kind of in the same time frame as a bunch of other crazy stuff. So it was like there was a little more obscure. So just real quick, the source is used in today's story are the book I mentioned. San Francisco homicide inspector 5 Henry 7 by Frank Falzone. I've definitely heard his name before. We've talked about him before for sure, right? Oh yeah. Well, let me I'll read you the rest of the title of that book, which is it's San Francisco homicide inspector 5 Henry 7, my inside story of the Nightstalker, City Hall murders, zebra killings, Chinatown gang wars, and a city

under siege. So he, this is a detective that worked, you know, on the force for so long years, therefore every major crazy famous case in the city. Amazing. Also excerpts from the book Super Slutes by Bruce Henderson and Sam Summerlin and multiple San Francisco examiner articles from throughout the 70s. And the rest of our sources are in the show notes for today. Okay, so this all starts in the morning of October 16th, 1973. It's a clear sunny autumn day in San Francisco, and a plump bald 70-year-old man named Lorenzo Carnelia

is walking along Third Street with a slight limp. All of those things will be relevant later. So today, the neighborhood that Lorenzo was walking in in 1973 is actually where Oracle Park, where the San Francisco Giants play their home games. It's right down there by the water. Now it's very kind of fancy. There's tons of high rises.

Yeah. But back in the early 70s, Third Street was mostly industrial buildings and warehouses. So there's not a lot of foot traffic. It's actually kind of desolate. And it's unclear where Lorenzo is going that morning as he walks along Third Street. What we do know is that he's carrying the daily racing form under his arm and he's near the Greyhound bus station.

It wouldn't be unusual for Lorenzo to hop on a bus to San Mateo to go bet on some ponies at Bay Meadows race track, except that today is Tuesday and there are no races on schedule at Bay Meadows. So we don't know what Lorenzo was doing walking around there, but we do know is that around 11.30 a.m., a young man starts tailing Lorenzo, walking down the sidewalk with urgency and purpose. He follows a completely oblivious Lorenzo until he's just a few feet away from him.

And that's when this young man raises a hand that's covered by a paper bag, points it at Lorenzo's back and pulls the trigger on the concealed handgun inside. The young man shoots Lorenzo carnelia in the back three times. So multiple people witness this attack because there's like a hotel right across the street. So there's people, there's not a lot of people walking around, but there are people that like

have, we're looking out their window or like have eyes on. So multiple people do witness the attack. So the police are called, but by the time they arrive, Lorenzo is in critical condition. He's rushed by ambulance to a nearby hospital where he dies from his injuries. So back at the scene, the police are searching for evidence. The gunman is long gone, and aside from a small pool of blood and Lorenzo's crumpled up issue of the daily racing form, there's almost no evidence to be found.

And there aren't shell casings, which lead the police and later the investigators to believe a revolver was used in the attack. So officers begin interviewing the eyewitnesses and they describe the gunman as a young thin man between the ages of 18 and 22. They say he had long, long hair, wore a yellow shirt and faded jeans and these witnesses report that after shooting Lorenzo, the gunmen reportedly ran north toward Market Street. So as helpful as all that information is, especially given the lack of physical evidence on the scene,

is all that information is, especially given the lack of physical evidence on the scene, this description is not much to go on. It's San Francisco in the early 70s, so the amount of white men with long blonde hair and blue jeans is countless. So homicide detectives, Frank Falzone, and Jack Cleary are assigned this case. The detectives, when they arrive and they see the lack of evidence, they decide to focus on witness testimony to drum up leads, so they just try to interview as many people as possible. So they start knocking on doors at the CD hotel that's directly across from the murder scene, and they basically knock, just go from room to room knocking on the door to try to get people to talk to them, which I'm sure was super fun. Almost no one has useful information.

Most people are not talking, not until they get to the third floor. And there a man named Anthony Miller, whose room looks right out over the crime scene, agrees to speak with them. In the book, Frank Falzon says Anthony was not the most charming host is the way he put it. He complains about not being asked to sit down. But none of that really matters because this is the first person that actually has some good information

for them. He tells Faulzone and Cleary that after shooting Lorenzo, the gunman ran toward a nearby parking lot where he takes off his yellow shirt, throws it on the ground, changes into a green shirt, runs back to Third Street, walks about another half a green shirt, runs back to third street, walks about another half a block north, hops into a parked white van and speeds away. What the fuck?

Yeah. So, that's actually a nice, you know, a witness statement. The only thing Anthony couldn't give them was the van's license plate number, and that was just because it was too far away to see. So, Phelzone and Cleary jogged back across the street, they go to that parking lot, and just as Anthony described, they find the gunman's yellow shirt on the ground.

It's described as, quote, a warranty shirt tied-eyed yellow with a bold chain pattern blocked out on the front. So pictures of this shirt are shown on the evening news, and they run in local newspapers, but unfortunately that doesn't lead to any new tips. So without much else to go on, the investigation into Lorenzo Carnelia's murder stalls out. Two months later, on a cold December morning, at the corner of 5th and Folsom streets,

which is relatively close by, it's kind of in the same area as where Lorenzo Carnelia's murder took place. A fifth and full sum of 54-year-old man named Aura Kuznesov is bundled up in a raggedy coat. He's walking in the direction of the lifeline mission and he's planning on eating a free breakfast there that morning but the mission is not open. So Aura's just kind of pacing around outside walking up and down the street as he's waiting.

So what's interesting about this is Arra, like Lorenzo Cornelia, is plump bald and walks with a slight limp. And just like Lorenzo, Arra is being watched. A white van has just pulled into the parking lot of the gas station next door and a young man steps out of the vehicle wearing a hooded jacket and a knit cap pulled down over his face. He's holding something big and bulky under his arm that seems to be wrapped in a brown paper bag.

One witness will later say that it, quote, looked like a broom in a large brown grocery store bag. The young man quickly walks down the sidewalk in the direction of the Lifeline mission. Unlike the day of Lorenzo Carnelius murdered, though, there are dozens of people around on the street on this morning. But the young man is headed straight for Arra, who is still standing totally oblivious outside the mission at this point. And when the young man gets within three feet of him, he pulls the bag from underneath his arm, sticks his hands inside, lifts it in front of him, and fires.

Witnesses report seeing Aura look up, once before being hit by a shotgun blast in the face. Ooh. The force of the gunshot throws him to the ground. Aura is killed instantly. Oh my God. Horrified Witnesses watch as the gunman stands in a days for a second or two and then

runs back to the gas station. So at this point the paper bag's been thrown off and the shooter is just walking down this busy street holding a pump action shotgun out in the open. He then jumps and do his white van and he manages to speed away before the police can make it to the scene. and he manages to speed away before the police can make it to the scene. So again, detectives fell zone and clear or call to the scene, and even though the weapons in the two murders are different, the similarities between the murders are obvious. In both instances, witnesses described a young man with a gun concealed in a paper bag fleeing in a white van.

Both shootings also happened on weekday mornings within blocks of each other. So the detectives focus on their latest piece of tangible evidence, and that's that paper bag that was left behind at the crime scene. They quickly figure out it's from a Safeway grocery store, which if you've ever lived in San Francisco, you know that's not going to help you that much because there's several. And several in the Bay Area. When they actually look into it, it's estimated that 10,000 of these exact same paper bags are used in those stores every single day. So, not great, but in this case, the grocery bag ends up being an excellent clue

because its thick paper makes a perfect canvas for fingerprints and police technicians are able to pull multiple prints off of that paper bag. The bad part is remember we are in the early 70s which might as well be the 1700s. There is no computerized database that the investigators can search to find a fingerprint match. There's no computers. So they have to search through the fingerprint database that is basically a big binder with a bunch of fingerprints. Can you imagine being that guy who has to compare thousands and thousands of fingerprints? And then it might either not match or you've got it wrong.

And it just didn't. Right. And also how are the were those organized? I mean, they must have been, you know, way words like, okay, swirls going left, swirls going right. Like, what's the system in place on that old thing? Because you're just comparing these intricate designs. Like, you know, how do you do it? On Instagram, if you know how they used to do fingerprint. Yes, historical fingerprint experts, we'd love to have a discussion with you.

Definitely. I mean, it's the same thing I think about when the way people used to edit movies. Oh, they cut the film. They cut the film by hand. It's crazy. Okay. So this operation seemingly borderline impossible, but it's essentially how it was.

It's all they have. They also are trying to track down that white van. Investigators search as many as 400 vans over the next several weeks and interview over 100 drivers that turns up nothing. They're back to square one. So they decide to approach the investigation from a new angle.

Instead of looking at the gunman, Phelzone and Cleary decided to focus on the victims looking for any connection between these two men no matter how big or small. But there's no connection that they can find. These men didn't know each other. They didn't have much in common really at all. Lorenzo was a semi-retired contractor at the time of his death. He was much older than Ara. He owned several buildings around San Francisco. I think he was like a landlord type. He had many friends. He was comfortable financially, whereas Ara was living out of a hotel room with no permanent

address. He had just moved to the Bay Area. He had no belongings. And aside from a few pieces of clothing and a New York state welfare card, he just didn't have anything. He didn't seem to know anyone in the city and he was out of work at the time of his murder. So two very different lives joined by this horrible horrific fact. But detectives, foul zone, and clearing, they do manage to find important similarities.

Both Lorenzo and Aura were older than the gunmen, much older, and on top of that, both victims were bald, short, heavy set, and walked with limbs. So that's kind of a crucial and interesting similarities. So now it's January 25th, three months have passed since the murder of Lorenzo Carnelia and about a month since the murder of Ara Kuznesev.

There's a lack of strong leads in this invest in both investigations until a call comes through the San Francisco Police Department's tip line and it's transferred directly to detectives, phalzone, and clary. And the man on the other end of the phone seems very nervous, very cagey. He manages to tell the investigators that he, quote, knows something that maybe they ought to be aware of. He says that a friend who drives a white van for his job at a delivery service has recently told him something that this man doesn't want to share over the phone.

So he asks if the two detectives will meet him in a public place, and he makes them promise to keep his name out of the investigation. So the detectives agree to keep the tips to anonymous, and they head out to meet him. And when they do, they're greeted by a young man who's visibly nervous, and he tells them that he has a good friend, who's, quote, a real good guy, straight and level, but who recently shared something that is very concerning.

According to this tipster, this man had been showing off several guns and told him, quote, he was trying to kill a man because this man was going around raping young girls. And quote, and the tipster's friend, who was making these claims, even said that he had murdered this rapist multiple times. What? Yeah, but according to the friend, the rapist multiple times. What? Yeah, but according to the friend, the rapist kept coming back to life. Oh, fuck. His friend was just like,

Hey, his friends like, I gotta call somebody. Like, we were just playing pool and suddenly this guy fucking, oh my god. Oh my god. So scary. I literally just put a little dash and wrote bone chilling underneath that because that is so scary. Then the man tells the cops his friend's name is William Hanson.

So finally, the detectives have a real lead and they do some digging on that name and they learn that William Hanson is 24 years old. He's blonde. He works a regular weekday shift from 8am to 4pm at a delivery service. It all matches the witnesses' descriptions of the gunman. And it seems that if this man is a delivery driver, then that would give him the opportunity to carry out these crimes while driving around town at his job. Of course, none of it's a smoking gun, but it's a very good start after three months of very little.

They also find out that Williams, the son of one of the most respected psychiatrists in California. And his mother is a local advocate who's passionate about progressive causes. Basically, William Hanson's character and surrounding lifestyle, there's no red flags. But then they dig a little deeper, and the detectives learn about another brutal attack that happened just months before Lorenzo Carnelia's murder. In February of the same year, an unnamed 54-year-old businessman was walking a few blocks north of Mission Street,

and out of nowhere, he sees a young man coming towards him with a knife. The businessman tries to defend himself. There's a struggle. Fortunately, the businessman is able to knock the knife out of his attacker's hands, and before the young man could get away, there are two patrol cops that are walking nearby. They come in, tackle this attacker, they take him to jail, they bring him up on criminal charges, this attacker's name is William Hanson. Oh, shit. And this businessman's description,

his physical description, he's short, heavy set, bald, and he walks with a limp. Yeah. So the problem is when William Hanson's trial date rolls around, the businessman is working in Phoenix and he can't testify, so those charges are dropped. What's really crazy is the same businessman had been attacked two months before that incident. In December of 1972, a businessman was ambushed while using a urinal inside the Greyhound bus station

bathroom near Market Street, which was the same bus station that Lorenzo Carnelia would use to go to the racetracks, all same area, and also not far from where Arrakuzanov was murdered. So in the bus station bathroom attack, the businessman told police, quote, his assailant had come at him from behind, reached over his shoulder and stabbed him in the chest. Jesus. And then the attacker vanishes before the businessman or any of the eyewitnesses can

get a good look at him. And it never occurs to the businessman, these two knife attacks were carried out by the same person. Yeah, I want you want to be like, of course businessman, these two knife attacks were carried out by the same person. Yeah. You want to be like, of course, it's two knife attacks, but it's like San Francisco in the 70s, not great. Yeah. Two different places. It's crazy and I'm sure he had his doubts.

I mean, like, I'm sure he didn't feel all one way about it. But still, you would think after the second one where the guy actually gets arrested, you'd be like, I'm going to go ahead and take that week off work. As much for the case as for my own, my self. But this is the 70s when you weren't allowed to care about yourself. Okay. After they learn all this, detect his foul zone and Cleary are becoming convinced that William Hanson was behind all the attacks that they have been investigating.

So now that they have a name and a previous arrest, they know that that means William Hanson was almost certainly fingerprinted. So they now get to have a much more focused search through the fingerprint catalog and they locate William Hanson's fingerprints. And when they compare them to the prints that were lifted from the Safeway shopping bag, they seem to be a match. Now, the investigators are able to secure both an arrest warrant for Hanson and a search warrant for his parents' house in the Forest Hill District where William lives.

When they arrive at the house, they are greeted very warmly by Dr. Hanson, whose hospitality fades to complete shock when they explain to him why they're there. A thorough search of the large home is conducted, and when they get to William's room, they find both a revolver and a shotgun. And in William's closet, officers find the clothing that matches witness descriptions of what their shooter had been wearing in each respective attack.

So Williams taken into custody, he's brought to jail, his stunned parents tell the detectives they had no idea their son even owned a gun much less too. And in fact, everyone who knows the Hansen family and knows William is shocked to hear this news. Williams' friends describe William as a great guy. Like no one can believe it. These are the stories where I'm like doubling up on my birth control. It's the next day. I mean, it's well, but no, this is interesting. And this is the reason that this case stood out to me is because so often we talk about these serial killer cases where you go, what's why, why did this person do this, why is it happening?

What's really compelling to me is that nothing justifies any of it. But there are these reasons that make so much more sense than the normal reasons or lack of reason that you seem to find in most cases. So Williams transported to the police station and he's withdrawn, but he is polite and helpful. But then something seems to shift in his personality. According to Detective Valzone's story in the book, Williams demeanor dramatically changes as the detectives outline all the evidence against him.

He says, quote, it was a complete change in character voice demeanor. He was so delusional that he'd gone to an altered state. His facial expression went from normal to cold, from a smile to a grimace. His eyes narrowed and his voice became guttural. Almost like a zombie in a horror movie. I'd never seen anything like it in a suspect under questioning. Oh. And, quote, so just this real turn, maybe it's the facade broke or who knows who knows what that reason could be could bend perception. But with this brand new version of William sitting in front of them, the two detectives want to know conclusively if this is their guy. And

it doesn't take long for William to start talking. And what he tells them is extremely disturbing. So this is another quote from the book. It says, there was a man, a man whose image was fixed in his mind, who was going around raping young women. He knew what this man looked like. Stalky, bald, walked with a limp. The girls were innocent, Hanson said, and that's why he had to kill this man.

He knew he had to kill and kill again until he finally put this man away. The man would always come back. No matter how many times he had to kill and kill again until he finally put this man away. The man would always come back, no matter how many times he tried to kill him, this man would always be there again on the street. He said the man tried to disguise himself by wearing different sized ears or a different nose, or sometimes having thin fingers and sometimes having fat fingers, but he could always tell because he could never change his height, his weight, the shape of his face, and in particular his peculiar walk.

God. End quote. So, this is a very young man who is clearly going through some sort of mental illness and delusion and essentially hallucinating the same rapist that no matter how many times, how violently he attacks him, he just keeps turning up again. I mean, there's, I think there's literally an episode of Twilight Zone like that. Yeah. It's to be in that reality.

What a nightmare. What a horrible nightmare. So William Hansen is handed two murder charges, and he waits his trial in jail. But two huge questions remain. How did this privileged popular respected young man become convinced there was a shape-shifting predator stalking women in San Francisco and what drove him to carry out such violent attacks? The answers come during Hansen's trial. According to the Hansen family attorney, William had been through horrible things in the past few years. One of his siblings

died by suicide and the other died suddenly in a car accident. Oh, God. And then on top of that, his relationship with his fiancee had recently ended, and this in particular seems to mark a huge shift for William, which would make sense if he had all that grief in his life and then his primary relationship ends. Now we don't know anything about his fiance, except this crucial and horrible fact. In 1972, she had been the victim of a brutal rape at the hands of a stranger.

God. And she described her attacker as, quote, an older man round faced, heavy set, who limped or dragged his foot slightly when he walked. Oh my God. So Williams' attorney puts forth the theory that his client became fixated on getting revenge on his fiancee's rapist and the thought of killing this man,

whoever he was, became William's obsession. To be clear, this lawyer never suggests that that, therefore, justified what his client did or that what he did was noble, simply arguing the fact that William was suffering with mental illness and was clearly in severe delusion when these attacks took place. Here's a quote from that attorney. He said, quote, Williams imagination created a fantasy world in which he was a Don Quio Di trying to rectify the wrongs that were done to a girl he loved.

End quote. So in May of 1974, William Hanson is found not guilty by reason of insanity, and he is sent to a test-gathero state hospital where he is treated for that mental illness for an undisclosed period of time and then released. And that's the same psychiatric facility where notorious serial killers like the Coed Killer, Ed Kemper, the Freeway Killer, William Bonan, and the Manson Family Murderer, text Watson, all serve time as well.

And that is the story of San Francisco's paper bag killer. Wow, I never heard of that in what a wild story that came together in such an awful tragic way, but it made sense, you know. It's like, like you rarely get a line of logic from a serial killer that you can follow and go, oh, now there's always stories of horrifying abusive childhoods,

you know, the whole dark triad combination where it's no one is purely evil, no one is born evil, all those things. But this one is a serial killer that it's almost like, God, it's such a, it's so clear. It's so linear, it's so linear. It's yes, in a way that it almost never is, that it just, I found it to be incredibly fast.

Yeah, wow. What's the name of that book again? Oh, you went the longest title of all time. I swear to God, I borrowed this book from my dad. I'll just say this. I borrowed this book from my dad so I can read every story in it. And my dad bugged me about mailing it back to him as if he was just like, Hey, that's not mine. It's Marty's. You got to give it back. And I was like, so you gave me two weeks to read this book.

And then of course I just wasn't doing it. And finally I mailed it to him. And he came down to visit me like three days later. I'm like, so glad you got the book back. Wow. That's like intense. Like, what are you in the middle of it? I don't understand.

I, he just didn't want to be the one that he goes, hey, it's signed. I'm like, I know it's it's okay He's he literally knows the guy that you don't throw your books in the pool when you're done with them So I think I tried not to though, though You know you this is the man who's seen me do every stupid fucking thing I've done for my entire life and Had to pay hands of me for all of those things so he's sick of my shit The book is titled San Francisco Homicide Inspector 5 Henry 7 by Detective Frank Falzone.

Great. Pick it up wherever you buy your indie books. That's right. No, indie books at indie book stores, you know, whatever you want. Yeah. Real quick, I would like to point out that while you were telling me that story, we got a group text, you me and Alejandra, from none other than Stephen Ray Morris.

It's his first recording, not with us. And it just says, like he knew what time we were recording because we do it every week. He says, hope you're having a great recording, heart, heart, heart. Oh, Stephen. Stephen. Oh, heart, heart. Oh, Steven! Steven! Steven! Steven!

That's very sweet. I love it. It is a little, I had that thought before we started where I was just like, you can't think about it or you'll start thinking about it. Right. And like, go too far into it. But it's like, I'm so weirdly, I was going to say suspicious. What is it?

Superstitious. Where I'm just like, what if Steven's the magic and he's gone and we're done? It was Steven all along. God damn it. Oh shit. Yeah, that would be hilarious. He was like the glue that hell would just gather. We'll have to just shut it all down

and open our respective donut shops or whatever. Great. Great. Great. Great plans we have. Whatever next phase plans we have. That's my answer, donut shop. How did you know?

Oh, okay. Well, should I have to open one across the street for me? Definitely. Directly compete. It'll be, I'll call mine G and K's donuts and you call yours K and G donuts and we'll just compete. Perfect. I'm going to do K and G donuts Chinese food, just to get the edge.

Sure, we're in LA after all. Yeah. Okay. I've got a classic for you. Great. It's a story that I'm sure we've all heard of, but I didn't know the details of. And so today I'm gonna tell you the details of the dancing plague of 1518.

Oh yes, yes. Main sources for the story are a book by John Waller called A Time to Dance, A Time to Die. Damn John, yeah. Like what were the other options? He titled the shit out of that book. He really did. A 2019 episode of Exactly Rights,

this podcast will kill you. Hey. Because of course. And the rest of this verse is going to be found in our show notes. So you and I right now, Karen, picture it. We're going to Strasbourg, which is now part of France. But Strasbourg is in the All-Sos region

on the border between France and Germany. So it's like half timbered houses and then glasses of reasoning, but this is in the 1500s, you know. And at the time, Strasbourg was part of the Holy Roman Empire, so it wasn't France yet. That existed in some form between 800 AD to 1802. In its height, contained modern-day Germany and some or all of the other modern-day countries that surrounded it, you have to think of it

as a precursor to modern-day Germany than having much to do with Rome. So that's the idea. That's where we are. That's what it looks like. All right, so our story begins with this poor woman named Fraud Trafoya, which translates basically the lady Trafoya and we translates basically to Lady Trafoya,

and we don't know her first name, unfortunately. She's just a frow in our bonnet. Like Fraud Blucher from a young Frankenstein. Exactly. It's a hot day in July of 1518. Fraud Trafoya walks outside and begins to dance. She's hopping from foot to foot, which doesn't sound like a great dance to me.

She sounds like a jig, you know? She's doing, it's over the pony. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da into the night in front of the growing crowd. And initially, some of her neighbors believe that she's dancing just to annoy her husband by some accounts was like a grumpy dude. So she's just like, fuck you, I'm dancing. But people dismiss this quickly. When fraude Traffaia continues to dance for hours, despite being in physical pain.

Oh, yeah. Like, that sounds really unpleasant. Yeah. She dances until she can barely move and then collapses to the ground and falls asleep. As soon as she wakes up, she begins dancing again. And she continues to dance for several days. Some people say four, some people say six days,

some of Fraud, Trafria's neighbors suspect witchcraft. Of course, just go right to witchcraft or demonic possession, just go there. You know? It's always in your pocket back there. Back in the 1800s. You know what this looks like? But they settle on a consensus eventually

that she's being punished by Saint Vitus. Are you familiar with this, bro? I've heard. I mean, he's not one of my main saints, personally, but I've heard of him because of the phrase St. Vitus Dance. Oh, well, there you go. Yeah. And actually, this is not the first recorded instance of Dancing, Plague, in Europe, if

you can believe it. Similar events are recorded throughout Europe, particularly in France, Germany, and Switzerland, starting around the year 1017. In the year 1237, a large group of children in modern-day Germany are said to have broken out in spontaneous dancing in like hopped and danced from their town to a town 12 miles away. Oh, shit. There's just far. And this actually might be the inspiration for the story of the Pied Piper. Oh, interesting, right. Some accounts say that the outbreak

of these dancing children started on St. Vitus's day so people connect the dancing plague to St. Vitus, believing it is a punishment from him. Oh, it's not about right, in your Catholicism? I mean, yeah, punishment, random punishment on children. Absolutely, that's how we do it. How did that thing? Then in the late 1400s, people curse their enemies by saying, God give you St.

Vitis or St. Vitis come to you, which is a sick burn back then. And around 1500, an altar panel at the Cathedral of Cologne in Germany is painted to show St. Vitis helping three men with the dancing plague. So back then, people believed that saints could both help the worthy and also dull out punishments. So just the St. Vitas could cure the dancing, he could also cause it. And at the time, Fraud Traffaia starts dancing in 1518,

she and her neighbors would have probably known about the threat from St. Vitas. Okay, sorry, really quick. This is basically it that by this point in history, this is something that's been happening for off and on for 500 years. That's crazy. Like it's a thing that happens. It maybe it's back then.

It's like, that's how long it took something to go viral. Like a roughly 500 year. Because we're talking about France and Germany and Switzerland. It's like, it has to travel, you know? Yeah, and there's a lot of mountainous. A lot of mountainous ranges. It's tough. Yeah.

And people don't like live to be, people live to be like 30, so it's something that that much time to like figure by the like, really quick spread the word of the dancing. They're like, what? So after a close to a week of dancing, Fraud Traffiya is brought by wagon, 30 miles away from her home,

up a small mountain to a shrine dedicated to St. Vitis. She is cured of her dancing. It stops. She's brought back to Strouseburg, where she discovers that the dancing has spread. Oh, yeah. So she's stopped, but other people started. Yeah, she's a trendsetter. And it's nice. It's scrappening. By late July, more than 50 people in Strasbourg

are dancing. Most people describe them as being in kind of a trance state. They're not talking. They're just staring and hopping around. Yeah, it doesn't sound chill. The local government intervenes by consulting both clergy and physicians, though Fraud Trafia had been brought to the shrine for a religious cure, which the church supports.

The team of physicians insists that the plague is not caused by St. Vitus, but overheated blood and the only cure for the dancing is more dancing. That is a true non-solution right there. This is a movie, Footloose, isn't it? I mean, you know, it has its roots there. Jesus, though, what a, okay, this is fascinating. Yeah. And the, the fucking, we're talking about physicians back then. They're not physicians today.

Those are like, yeah, those are the ones that were like, you have too much black bile in your system. So we need to bleed you and put leeches on you. Yeah. Yeah. So the town, because the only cure for the dancing plague is more dancing, the town sets up several dedicated dancing areas, including one that has a stage and they bring in musicians and they ask the healthy and robust people to dance with the afflicted dancers to keep them moving, thinking that they need it. Dancers are given food and water and weak ale and wine.

So they're like encouraged to dance, basically. It's now a festival. Yeah. That's right. It sounds like. John Waller, who wrote the book, A Time to Die, said, quote, day after night, night after day, the dancers continued with their delirious motions. One can picture them in late July, 1518, eyes unfocused, faces turned up to heaven, their

arms and legs moving with fatigue and their shirts, skirts, and sockings soaked with sweat amid the beat of drums and the melodies of pipes and horns rose. The monotonous tapping of clogs and leather boots on hard floors and wooden stages together with the sobs of onlookers and the occasional despairing cry or terrified scream from the dancing host. So it's not a party. It does not sound chill. The thought of dancing and wooden clogs sounds like a fucking nightmare.

Also, I really would love to know the unknown story of the family that lived in that town that were like, hey, we have to pack up in the middle of the night. This is fucking weird. I lost their shit. It's so creepy. Yes. Yeah, my feet hurt. Just fucking reading this shit. So the dancing cure with the dedicated dancing areas that doesn't work, obviously. In fact, it seems to do the opposite. As more and more people seem to catch the dancing plague

and they join in, right? So, but the following month in fact, it seems to do the opposite as more and more people seem to catch the dancing plague and they join in, right? So but the following month in August between 200 and 400 people are just fucking straight up dancing in the street. Because you can't fight FOMO. You just can't like it's it's from all time of human being. FOMO is ancient. Yeah. And some of them push their bodies so far in the summer heat,

because it's the fucking August at this point that they die. So like people died from dancing plague. The total number of deaths is unknown. One account says that at one point as many as 15 people are dying a day, so that would quickly bring the death total to more than 50, possibly a hundred. So like what about more? And what a way to go.

Just truly, truly nasty. OK. The city officials backpedal, and then you know how they were like, everyone dance, that's the cure. Now there's no dancing at all. We forbid it. So they dismantled the stage and tell the afflicted that if they have to dance, it must be in the privacy

of their own homes. And they also return to the religious approach and bring a group of dancers to the shrine of St. Vitus. So it does, and it takes days to get there. So it is a hall. Once at the shrine, priests place the dancers still fucking dancing under a wooden statue of St. Vitus. They give them crosses to hold, put red shoes on their feet, not sure why, but it has some connection to St. Vitus. And the St. Vitus ritual works

and Strasburg continues to send the dancers to the shrine until there are no dancers left. Huh. It almost sounds like it's in their heads. It almost sounds like perhaps a placebo of some kind, but okay. No, go ahead. Well, it's just like, it makes sense that if, you know,

you ritualize the cure and kind of involve everybody and people are it's yet another thing that they're all going through together and kind of like that the thing that's taking them along that way can be stopped in that same if it's outside of them they don't know why it's happening then here we'll put you through this machine that'll stop it and it's like okay and they truly don't know it's happening, then here we'll put you through this machine, that'll stop it. And it's like, okay. And they truly don't know. It's not like they're trying to trick people, right? They just, they believe it, probably.

Right. After you, you could accuse people of that for the first 17 hours of dancing. But then after that, they're not faking it, especially in clogs, especially if people are crying, sobbing. Oh, I've just pictured in my, like in my early 20s, I used to go dancing a lot and I'm just sobbing. Oh, I've just pictured my, like at my early 20s, I used to go dancing a lot, and I'm just picturing myself sobbing on the day. Because my shoes were always uncomfortable, right?

Like they never fit, right? Cause I get like vintage heels or like some, they couldn't be just like fucking Adidas, right? Like, so I'm like, I got it. Yeah, you relate. I thought of your, your raving days as well. We're in sling. At least these people didn't have to go and get a secret egg

that gave them the password to get the location or whatever weird way you guys used to do. I used to wear like stacks, you know? Just full platforms straight off of nowhere. That's right. Oh my God. Okay, so let's talk about theories. The first working theory of what caused the dancing plate comes from Paracelsus, who's

like that's, he's like a Madonna, like a one word name. That's how famous he is. He's a physician and alchemist who visited Strohsberg in 1526. He learned about the plague and later wrote about it. And he described the victims of the disease as Ch choreomaniacs, which is fucking rad, like get a choreography maniacs. Choreomaniacs. Got it, yeah, like that.

And suggested that they developed it because their thoughts were quote, free, lude, and impertinent, resulting in a quote, voluptuous urge to dance. Basically, there was too much of the Roman Catholic church up in everybody's business. And they were like, what if we just did everything that God doesn't want us to do?

Shake our asses all around town voluptiously. I picture this guy's being played by David Bowie in the Labyrinth, right? That makes it better. He's that guy's there. Coriel Mania. Thank you, but he don't look at his eyes. They're two different colors. As the plague spread, mostly the women, he said it was targeting idol and disloyal wives. That was his fucking thing. It should be noticed that Paracelsus was known, oh wait, it's not David Bowie, even at the time for his particular hatred of women and Ali, my researcher made a good point

of to be a noted misogynist in 1530, it had to be really bad. Yeah. Back when women had zero rights and then it's like you should see this guy. Everyone's like, wow dude, that's a little far. But we, yes, we vlog our wives, but like, you take this to work. But yeah, you seem especially bitter. So another theory that emerges later is our friend, or got poisoning, which we definitely heard of. That was one of the theories of the

Salem witch trials, right? Yeah. Oh, there, that's been a theory behind a lot of things. Well, you talked about it in, you talked about, orgasism and St. Anthony's fire during your story on the great famine of 1315 last year. Oh, right. Thanks, that's right.

Thanks to Allie's note. That was episode 351, which we named High Five Halloween for some reason. I don't remember why. Who knows, we never do. It might not have been. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan.

I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan.

I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan.

I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a vegan. hallucinations and spasms, but most of the time it causes restricted circulation, resulting in gangrene, a burning sensation, and a very painful death. Oh no, there are some people who potentially had that going on at the same time, is dancing themselves to death. Well, maybe, okay, so not long ago I was on a new medication and I had to stop taking it because the side effect I got from it was restless leg. Oh, and I have here to fucking tell you that is no joke. I was laying in bed, been sleeping, and I didn't want to wake him, but I couldn't not kick kick my legs. I would have fucking exploded if I didn't do it.

It was like my whole body was upset. Wow. Yeah, like electric. It sucked so bad. So I could see that if you have ergot poisoning and like one of the things it causes is restricted circulation. It also causes spasms. Like, you kind of fucking lose your mind and go dance in the street, right? Yeah. Because you're trying to get that feeling out of your body. Because you have to move. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah I'm having that interesting. Have you been eating a lot of raw rice lately? No, but I've eaten a lot of fungus and Urgat

You love that fungus But okay the thing is though the risk of ergot poisonings were well known at the time So they knew that in fact one mill was decorated with carvings of contorted faces, which are believed to be reminders of the dangers of the poisoning. So like people were aware of it already. And the symptoms of the urgate poisoning were known as St. Anthony's Fire because of the burning sensation, another one of your your bros in the Catholic right?

We got a lot of them. They've done great work for humanity over the years. I guess one of the reasons people think you can rule out or got to them is because no contemporary descriptions of the dancing plague mentioned St. Anthony's fire and people would have known what it looked like basically like they would have already been taught or enough of the symptoms, but you know, things, what is it? What's the word? Change. Progress. Exhaust. Exhaust.

Thank you. So most people reject the Urgat theory and then there's also the belief that dancers are cured by praying to say, invited us, which doesn't explain Urgat poisoning. Yeah. So most people agree on the theory that this was an instance of mass psychogenic illness, which is better known as the very sexist term mass hysteria. So we're not using hysteria anymore. Did you know that? No, I did not.

It's pretty cool. It's now called mass psychogenic illness. Okay. Because hysteria, of course, comes from the Greek word for uterus. And for a long, long time, it was a diagnosis only given to women. for uterus and for a long, long time, it was a diagnosis only given to women. I mean, is like, get off our backs. Yeah.

Literally. Literally. For fucking once in 3000 years. Like, can you get off on top of that? Can we have a fucking uterus and it not be the devil? Please. Oh, Jesus.

OK. So mass psychogenic illness can cause physical symptoms to spread throughout a population where there appears to be no external cause for those symptoms. So basically, FOMO, like you're talking about. Most people agree that the cause is actually stress in highly stressful circumstances, a person may experience that stress through physical symptoms or uncontrollable behaviors,

which can then spread. It doesn't mean the symptoms aren't real though, and the person doesn't believe that they have this affliction, you know? They're really going through some dance totally. That part's real. I'm gonna tell you a couple instances of this. In 1962, students at a girls boarding school in Tanzania began laughing uncontrollably.

It began with three students and spread to 60% of the school. And the school had to close. And when the girls went home, the laughter spread to their villages and to other schools. And the disruption lasted months. And a total of 14 schools wound up having to be closed temporarily because of the laughing. Now, that's one that I immediately am like, it makes perfect sense to me. Because you flip through TikTok

and there's like one baby laughing. I just saw this video of a baby. The mom goes, what did you name your moth? And he's like three years old. He's so little. And he starts laughing. And he's laughing so hard. He can't say the name.

And finally when he says it, he named the Moth Moth you. So first of all that child of genius, he's like, gets how good that wordplay is. Well, well about his age for sure. Well playing well above, but then at the same time, his laugh is like I was laughing so hard, just watching him. And yeah, I think that the way, especially girls are tuned into each other.

And you know what I mean? Literally in my fucking paperwork. Oh, ships. No, no, you're right. It's totally true. It is, it's empathy. And that is a strong female trait. Yeah. Sorry, boys. Sorry. Work on empathy, mother fuckers.

So a more recent case began in 2011 in La Roy, New York, a small town outside Rochester. In that case, an outbreak of ticks, which included twitching, humming, and arm swinging, spread throughout a high school, starting with members of the cheerleading team, and spreading to other students at the school. And most doctors agreed that this was a case

of mass psychogenic illness, although one doctor suspected a pediatric autoimmune disorder caused by strep. So some students were treated with amyotics and others were not, but both groups eventually improved. So. I remember that story.

Because yeah, because they were just basically like, were not both groups eventually improved. So. I remember that story. Yeah. Yeah, because they were just basically like, it's this thing again, is it mass psychogenic? Psychogenic illness. Yeah. Is it mass psychogenic illness or is it something else or whatever? And that, yeah, just that idea of like whenever a group of people all start doing something and then people just keep joining and joining and joining. It's like, that's a, yeah.

This is the thing that everyone's just like, stop for a second. We need to talk about this. Especially because humans are such pack animals, right? Like, it's the thing where you see that, that, that prank of like, people walk into an elevator and everyone's in on it, but one person and they all turn around and face the other side of the elevator and the person who's not in on it does it too because they're just like, I'm the, I can't be the only person who doesn't know what's going on here. No, in fact, that is being ostracized is like the one thing people can't handle.

And that's like that's human behavior where all we do is try to connect with the greater group. So anytime that's under threat, people will do whatever it takes to stay in the patch. That's how we stay alive. That's lizard brain saying you have to stay alive. Yeah, crazy. And even more recently, beginning in 2020, shortly after COVID started,

teenage girls across the country and around the world were going to doctors with ticks. The ticks were often the same from patient to patient, even across wide geographical areas. Do you know about this? I know, so I'm not gonna say who it is, but I know a 19 year old who's into TikTok and she has these ticks, I've seen her do it.

And I think she picked it up from there. It's wide, which is just looking at it and seeing other people do. Yeah. The repetition of the same words and the same movements. And it turns out that many of these ticks originated with the same couple of content creators on TikTok who actually had Tourette's at drum.

And from watching those creators, the teenagers developed some of the same ticks. So it's really interesting. I mean, that is what you do when you're a teenager though. You look at who you admire and you try to act like them because you want to be like them. It's like when you have a new friend and you start saying the same slang they say

because you just want to connect because you're trying to connect with them. Yeah, and you also want to be like whatever level popular you think they are. It's like, oh, is this how you do it? Is this natural? So that visibility is key in the spreading of mass psychogenic illness.

That's why in Strasbourg, that stage and the musicians, you know, that they made possible, worsen the spread of the plague in 1518. And it's also probably how frau, trafia, winds up dancing to begin with, since dancing plagues are known in the region and anxieties around St. Vitus are common. So like she probably got it from someone else too, you know?

Huh, interesting. Most experts agree that mass psychogenic illness is caused by extreme stress. And this would certainly track for the dancing plague of 1518, because in addition to general disease, filth, and hardships that make being a 16th century European peasant, not fucking chill and fun, there are some specific hardships going on in Strasbourg at the time. First of all, in the background of all of this is just

content with the corruption in the Catholic, in your, your favorite Catholic church. This will soon lead to the Reformation and the founding of Protestantism. People feel spiritually neglected at the time when the promise of something beyond this life is really the only thing that keeps them going. That's right. I mean, just think about that.

Or just like, that is not a good place to be where you're like, whatever, whenever this life is done is when I'm gonna to get my reward. It's like, okay, but what if, just think about what if you get there and they don't show that movie, then what are you going to do? Like, do it now. I'm doing it like point is for generations to come, but not me. And like, you know, what up in the sky, everything's going to be great when I go to heaven. That's it. That's it.

If only. If only. So all this is going on throughout Europe, while specifically in Strasbourg, there have been several straight decades of non-stop misery. Cifilis arrived in the area for the first time in the 1490s, so not that far before. Just real quick side note. Cifilis is back in Texas right now.

Shut the fuck up. No joke. They're having an outbreak of Cifilus is back in Texas right now. Shut the fuck up. No joke. They're having an outbreak of Cifilus in Texas. Just keep, guys. Guys. Protect yourselves. What are you doing? Everybody.

They should get yourself tested. Use protection. Cifilus. Cifilus. Like old school. Like fucking noseballing off. Shit. Horrifying. Yeah. Cifilus arrives Sipilis. Like old school. Like fucking noseballing off. Shit.

Horrifying. Yeah. Sipilis arrives, as I said, untreated syphilis. Let me tell you what it can cause. It's a long and gruesome and painful death, and there's no such thing as treated syphilis until the 20th century. Yeah. And there's an outbreak of bubonic plague also in 1511.

So like, there's just like, imagine if we had like COVID and then like COVID happened again Like 10 years later like basically we're on the verge of dancing every moment of every day stress. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, such a stress Then starting in 1514 there are a series of really bitter winters very dry or wet summers It destroys harvests and causes the price of brain to nearly double. Basically, everyone's fucking starving. Everyone has these debts they can't pay because the crops aren't growing. It's just a nightmare of a place to live. Like, do you have a time machine, X-Nay, on the You know, don't go back into any of those areas. Truly, I'd say. John Waller, the author of,

A Time to Dance, A Time to Die. A Time to Die. Which is also a name of a, a, what's his name? James Bond movie, probably, right? Except for the dancing part. Right. So he says that it's almost certain

that the majority of the dancers in Strasbourg were poor. The ones who had been suffering the most for the past several years. He writes, quote, we can be fairly sure that most of the dancers had the lined faces, deep-set eyes, coarse gray clothes, loose blackened or missing teeth, and the stinking breath that spoke of the hardships of the lowest cast. So that's who it's dancing. Shhh.

Shhh. The bummeriest of the bummers. Well, and also I bet it felt pretty goddamn good to just be like, fuck it all. I'm not gonna go once again out into this field to reap or so. I'm just gonna leave, I'm gonna let all my cows sit there unfed.

I'm gonna just go dance, pretend like nothing else matters. I'm gonna have a quick little mentee bee, and I'll be back when I'm ready, right? Yeah. If row bloopers doing it, why can't I do it? They say to each other and they're like, you can. Don't worry about it. I'm always wanting one.

They built us a stage. They brought a band. Yeah, everybody gets. That's people's like getting at a work free card is like, and farm work, man. It just never ends. It's just the tough, the tough, the tough. Only for the tough. So just a few months after the dancing plague in 1518,

news of Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation reaches Strasbourg. And his teachings quickly become very popular. Luther also rejects saint worship, so Saint Vitus no longer has a hold over Martin Luther's new followers. Nice. What a convenient break. Can we give him my five, please?

And at the same time, the Catholic church responds to the Reformation with crackdowns on corruption. There are later instances of people voluntarily dancing in devotion to St. Vitas. This instance was the last recorded dancing epidemic in Europe. So fucking ended. Wow. And that is the story of the dancing plague of 1518, which most experts agree was a case of mass psychogenic illness. Also, the premiere of the term mass psychogenic illness on this podcast. That's great.

That was great. So fascinating. Yeah. I'm going to go with Ergot poisoning. I'm just going to pretend that I have any information other than... I mean, it's fun to make a guess at the end when you get all the the factual information. You're like, you know what? I'm going to throw all that aside and say it was caused by astrology. You know what it was? Thuck in Virgo was in cancer. Or know what is it? The moon is in what's the one mercury? I was mercury. Mercury was in retrograde. Great.

was Mercury was in retro game. Great. That has to be it. Um, I mean, wow. Heavy. It's heavy. It's funny. It's weird. I like learning.

I like, because I've had that idea in my head, or like every time I've ever seen the dancing plague, it's like I never, I've ever seen the dancing plague, I've never read any kind of a long article about it or anything. It's always just like, oh, interesting. And then not get the details. So I like to know the details. And it's so interesting to picture life back then with all its kind of trappings.

And then on top of that, you live in this village where everyone is so interconnected and so interdependent, and suddenly one lady starts dancing and it all goes to fucking hell and handbag. And fucking 500 years later, we're talking about it on a true crime podcast. That's how fucking like instrumental it was. It's a it's a big deal. And also what has happened in our history and what could come back. Sure. Because it would be very interesting like mass Psychogenic illness is a fascinating topic, you know how people are affected by either becoming a part of a group or Being turned away from a group. I mean, you know

There's some groups today that you could really question what the fuck is going on. It is. There's a relevance to today's what we see and how we're affecting. You know, everybody wants to talk about teenagers saw some influencers and they started doing the thing that influencers are doing. It's like, it's not just teenagers. We've got some very old people out there doing the exactly the same thing, but grosser and worse against their fellow man.

That's right. Just disgusting. And loving it. And here we are, the coastal elite. It's fucking being perfect. Oh, thanks for listening, you friends. We appreciate you so much. Yes. Thanks for coming back time and again, over these long seven years, it was our first episode without Steven, so forgive the mistakes

and that hollow empty feeling inside of us because it's gonna be a change, but my mustache out, so everyone feels better. Thank you, I appreciate that. I'll get my go to you, darling. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Goodbye.

Goodbye. Yeah. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Ah. Ah. This has been an exactly right production. Our producer is Alejandra Keck, our senior producers Hannah Kyle Cretan. This episode was edited and nixed by Leonis Colachi. Our researchers are Marin McClashan and Ali Elkin. Email your hometowns and fucking arrays to myfavoriter at gmail.com.

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