My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 388 - Spill the Milk

Episode Date: August 10, 2023

This week, Karen and Georgia cover the murder of Barbara Finch and the unsolved disappearance of Suzanne Lyall.For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Infamous International, The Pink Panther's story takes you into the world of Serbia's most infamous jewel thieves. Infamous International, The Pink Panther's story premieres Thursday, September 14 on exactly right. Listen on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Mike Williams set off on a hunting trip into the swamps of North Florida, where it was thought he met his fate by a group of hungry alligators, except that's not what happened. And after the uncovering of a secret love triangle, the truth would finally be revealed. Listen to over my dead body, gone hunting early and add free unwondery plus. Hello! And welcome to my favorite murder! That's Georgia Hardstark.

Hi, that's Karen Kielkara. Hello. Hi. We're here again. To podcast. That's right.ielkerif. Hello. Hi. We're here again. To podcast. That's right. And nothing else. We're not doing a single other thing.

Just podcasting. That's all. Yeah. What more do you need and want for us? It can't be much. After all this time, you must know we can't give it to you. Your expectations at this point should be Hello.

Hello. Hello. I just heard someone commented that at this point should be hello. Hello, hello. I just saw someone commented that when they listen to this podcast and the intro stops, they try to get our hello at the same time as we do. It's like, say it along with us. Yeah, which I don't even know how to,

I don't even, I can't even do it right. So I don't know how someone else is going to. Our intro has become the product of podcasting on Zoom, which is the effort of overcoming the delay. But it's like, are we both gonna do this at the same time? Body language is impossible to read over Zoom, of course. Although you really make a great conductor's effort. Thank you.

I definitely try to lift those arms in there and like get it, you know, going. Hold your mouth open for a little while to show me that you're about to say something. Deep breath. Gasps. More of a gasp. Wide eyes, mascara eyes. And say it. Well, soon we'll have an office, like an official office.

A real office with real studios. Yeah. And I'm going to drive my ass over there. And then I will too. Hey, if you're going to go there, then I won't zoom into the studio. I feel like that'll lose like three weeks in and we'll both be like, I don't want to leave a house to you. I don't leave a house. Although, do you remember at the old small studio, which oh, like a little, it's like thinking of Little House in the Prairie. It's so long ago and precious. And also Steven.

Steven. But in that studio, it was like once we were sitting there and I think we both had the fear of it because it wasn't your apartment, which was like, oh, can we do this? This is so formal, this is not us. But then suddenly there was this, oh, can we do this? This is so formal. This is not us. But then suddenly there was this weird new, like to me, it almost felt like professionalism

where we're just like, oh, we're sharp as tax in here. Sorry, is this a desk or sitting at? Because we're getting good at this. Are we on the daily show? Like what is this? See, you're, are you wearing a blazer and I'm wearing a tie because this is happening. I have a brooch on and shoulder pads.

I'm wearing a hat with net over my face. Oh, no one can see me. The best part of that office was that you, me and Danielle, had a tweezer in the bathroom because the lighting was so fucking harsh and like overhead and terrible in the bathroom there that we all agreed that like we need a tweezer permanently there to pluck the hairs that are just like surprise that are like you can't see me anywhere. Everyone else. Everyone else. Everyone else and this mirror.

It's the mirror that was telling the ultimate truth. And also we had that drawer filled with candy from the road. It's probably stale now. Did we keep that? Did we keep that? Did it in storage? Oh, I hope so. There's some like fat mice in a storage blocker somewhere. Oh, that's so true.

Cute. Get fat on. Fats on. Canadian Kit Kat and fuck it. So many. Swedish chocolate. Yeah. So if we were like, well, this is the one thing we're going to make room for and bring

it home. The one thing that you can't get in America. Right. Kit Kat. I ate an errant Twix from Paris last night, because I brought it home, because I was like, I wonder if this is better from Paris. And it was, it tasted more natural. I don't mean it confront you.

Okay. But you went to Paris in May. And are you telling me that you were able to wait to eat a Twix for three months? What are you talking about? It's called a special occasion because I'm not allowed to indulge in and joy things in a normal way, like a normal human being.

That's like my trade off. Oh, it's like this is a special occasion. It has to be special, or I won't do it. So you put the Paris Twix away like it was a piece of wedding cake in your freezer? Yeah, I know. But I mean, God, yeah. Just, I commend it.

Thank you. I'm not confronting, I'm commending, but how also is the other question. Yeah, those aren't my binge things. My binge things are saltier, like savory, like cheese. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? That's what I can do.

Absolutely, I'm not friends. Well, so what's the report? What's the what's the French Twix report? It had a like honey like a honey flavor to it. Almost like a biscuitie more biscuitie and honey. Yes. Which I thought was interesting. That sounds amazing. I also had like three hard kombucha's by that point. So that might have fucked up my taste buds a little bit. by that point. So that might have fucked up my taste buds a little bit. It's her turn. You were just chewing on the arm of the couch. And also the only special occasion was that Vince is out of town. And I was like, oh, my Lord, sucks.

Special, special asterisk's adication. Exactly. It was like, oh, you deserve this because you're bummed and have to sleep alone in the scary house and you're terrified, so you deserve it, Twix. That's right, exactly. There's your horror movie that you should write, is it's a lady at home alone trying to twist her way through some sort of a situation, scary attack. Anyway, what's up with you?

You know, nothing's going on with me, except for this weather is... It feels today like Florida humid in Los Angeles, which we don't usually do here. It's a Y. It's a Y. What are you doing? I feel really guilty because on days like this, if I screw around too much in the morning, it'll get too hot and then I don't want to walk the dogs.

Oh my God, same, exact same. So then, but then I'm staring at them, like I'm making them go insane and this is so unfair. So this morning I got them out there and then they were just like, they were panting and like looking over their shoulder at me like, why are we doing this? I'm like, see, this is, this is why I'm not doing it.

I'm not torturing you, okay? It's like, that's something happens to me because Vince is a responsible pet owner and wakes up at a fucking decent hour and takes cookie out, but now that he's out of town, it's like me and Cookie sleeping until like fucking 10 o'clock. And then by then it's too hot to take her out

and she's just like, I like the other guy. Yeah, better than you a little bit. I like Mr. Rituals and Systems. That works better for me. And I'm like, I like him too. Like, I don't function fucking well around here, either when he's gone. Hey lady, you're just screaming at the dog.

You're not the only one benefiting from that guy's systems. That's right. That's right. Did he, is there some wrestling festival somewhere? There's a wrestling festival and a live, his live podcast in Michigan this week. So he went home to like see everyone and do his, Oh, that's great guy thing, you know, just like see all the guys, you know, to even like see all his best friends from childhood,

which I don't totally understand how that works. So he does his thing. Yes. He's Vince Averles. It beloved across the nation. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone loves Vince. Including me. I'm just going to say he goes to this barber, like, you know, like a old school, like barber, it's these dudes, and they like invited him to a Dodger game with them. And he like went to a Dodger game with like his barbers and like the owners. Of course, yeah. And now he has his new friends. I don't know how he like a does it.

You know what it is? It's a thing where when he tells you a story, he kind of hits you on the shoulder. Yeah. He's one of those guys. He's just kind of like, he's good at being engaged. He's good at going like, hey, yeah, I get you. I'm like with you.

Yeah. He's that guy. Can I read you of my mom literally just text me this afternoon? She said, we're texting about where Aban says. She said, Vince is such a good man. I have grown to care very much about him. Like did you not in the beginning? I think it's literally been seven years.

Like, did you give me 10 years to commit? Janet, you know what? Your mom's like, you know what? Turns out he's a keeper. I've decided a decade in. Well, I guess when you have daughters, you're probably skeptical, right? Of their like, boyfriends and you're like,

sure. What's this guy's, you know, what's his deal? Is he sticking around, that kind of thing? So it must feel great to finally have Janet's sample approval. I should have been like, well, I like your husband too. You should be like, well, I have some notes on yours. My stepdad on the other hand.

Yeah. Well, that's nice. That'll carry you through till he gets back home. Guess what? My mom approves of you. He's like, I'm getting on the next plane to come and hug her. Aw. You know who else loves Vince A. Roller's Chris Fairbanks?

Love the Do You Need a Ride podcast? He talks about him quite a bit. Cause they golf together, does he really? Yeah, that's so sweet. Not like a crazy, you know. Sure. But it's that kind of thing where he's like, he told the story about somebody else

and then he was like, and you know, I can't really handle it, cause then I'll just be angry and yelling, and Vince handles it. And I'm like, yep, that's Vince handles it, is literally the biography that he should write. Vince handles it. Oh, my life, I love it.

It's pretty nice. Yeah, you got a good one. Guys, hit on people at bars. You never know who you're gonna meet Wait, was that the original Meet cute of you guys well. Yes, but we were at a friend's party So like and he knew all my friends. I know all his friends Megan Gaines from the always it's always sunny in Philadelphia It was Herbert. They party we both knew her and then got it talk down night

That's it right hit on people is my, hit on people, this is my advice. Hit on people, why not? At this point, if the ocean's heating up, get out there, get out there. It's a sauna. It's sauna temperature, it's in Florida. Yeah. What the fuck?

Also, there was some, and I had kind of like, I really love to talk, obviously, to talk about it all the time, but there are things like, there was just somebody who was shooting a video of their backyard, and it was, I think it was thunder and lightning, and then it said, whatever city it was,

and I do apologize, because I think it was Alabama, but it was an A state, I can't remember, but there were like, it's 106 degrees, and it's hailing, and it was a video of that happening. Could it have been a deep pick? Sure, it's over. Should we trust our eyes anymore? Never. In Arizona, I saw a photo of the like the red break light plastic coverings of a car melted melted. Oh, bad stop. Just let's stop everyone bad vibes climate changes real. It's like stop pretending. Can we please fix this shit?

Will someone well the corporations because it's not about your fucking can of LaCroix that you haven't recycled. No, anyway, not anymore. Let's not get into almond milk. Let's not do that. What milk almond milk? Oh, I thought you said let's not get into all the milk. Let's not do that. What milk? Almond milk? Oh, oh, I thought you said, let's not get into all the milk. Oh, that's the new tea. Let's fill the milk. Let's get into that milk. Yeah, no. Well, you know, my therapist, her thing is you can allow yourself

to swallow the good milk. You have to turn it into bad milk first, and I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And it's like this thing of like someone, let's say, someone compliments you, and you have to turn it into bad milk first and I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And it's like this thing of like someone, let's say someone compliments you and you have to be like, oh thank you, you know, what I've had this forever, whatever, let's see, only way you can accept the compliment and the good milk is by turning it into bad milk first.

Oh, yeah, I get you. You know what I mean? It feels like it's on par with your Twix. Yeah. Holding off on a Twix for three months. Hold on, I'm on a twix. I just don't understand what part of your purse you put that twix in that you don't access it.

That's my thing. I love that. I love that. You're still thinking about it. It's just the most eatable of all candy bars. It's quick. It's convenient. It's always good. Oh God, it candy bars. It's quick. It's convenient. It's always good.

Oh god, it's my favorite. All right. All right. All right. Speaking of Chris Fairbanks, we have let's do exactly right updates. Let's do it. This week on I said no gifts, Bridges joined by actor, comedian, and podcaster Greta Titelman. Also on wicked words, Kate's guest is author Catherine Corcoran, who wrote the book in the mouth of the wolf, in which Catherine investigated the silencing of the free press and government corruption in Veracruz, Mexico. And the MFM store has been restocked with two popular items, including the MFM Mood Pin. It's the one that's like a spinny wheel and you land on different phrases. And then also the, I'm probably listening

to my favorite murder license plate frame for your car. Which I fucking love. I forgot we even had that. I did too, but it goes like what a great idea that we already had. What a great idea we had. That's at my favorite murder.com. So make sure you go there specifically

for all your merch needs. Yes. I think a license plate holder is such a classy and subtle way of expressing your fan ship. Yeah. Okay, I'm first this week. And so I hope you're ready. Okay.

Because I'm gonna tell you a story that takes place a month after the death of George Reeves, which is the story you just covered. Yeah. And it's also in Los Angeles, so it's LA 1959. So that basically the death of George Reeves has been the talk of the town in LA until this next local case overtakes all the newspaper headlines. And it actually went national, life magazine writer Eric Ambleer reported on it back in 1960. And he said this about it, quote, this trial is in the rich tradition

of great American courtroom dramas. It has everything that tradition demands. It has love, lust, passion, greed, hate, adultery, plots, counterplots, sensational disclosures. It has a cast of characters, which includes beautiful blondes, beautiful brunettes, Hollywood personalities, hired killers, private eyes, and Perry Mason like attorneys. Los Angeles has given of its best and is now making the most of it. Totally shit.

End quote, right? That's pretty epic. Yeah. This is the story of the murder of Barbara Finch and the mid-century courtroom circus that made this case one of the most talked about crimes of the 1960s. Ah!

So, right? I've never heard of this. No. So, sources for today's story are a 2013 Los Angeles magazine article titled Murder in Black and White by Stephen Maculan. The book Satin Pumps the Moonlit Murder that mesmerized the nation by Steve Cosseraf and a 1960 life magazine article by the above quoted Eric Ampler. And the rest of the sources are our show notes. All of this starts in the city of Covena,

California. You know, oh well. Beautiful Covena. Covena's 20 miles east of Los Angeles. And in 1918, Raymond Bernard Finch, who will be now known as Bernard in this story, is born to the wealthy and powerful Finch family. So Bernard's grandfather, Thomas E. Finch, is a successful businessman,

and he's one of the city's founding fathers. Writer Steve Kosseraf notes that, quote, the Finches were not only established in Kovina, but elsewhere in Southern California. Three generations were well-known and loved by locals for their religious faith, civic responsibility, and success as local entrepreneurs. And quiet. So Bernard grows up in this prominent family. He graduates from medical school. He becomes a surgeon.

And he opens a medical clinic in West Covina. And like his family before him, he's very invested in his community. He bank rolls youth sports teams. He gives medical lectures at local churches. And he even throws his weight behind a rising political star named Richard Nixon who is making a bid for Congress.

Oh, great man. Right, truly one of the greats. And apparently not a crook. So when Bernard is in his early 20s, he marries a woman named Francis. They have three children, they make their home in Baldwin Park, and basically with all this wealth and privilege, Bernard gets a lot of preferential treatment and attention around town, especially from women. And before long, he cements his reputation as a ladies man. So in 1947, when Bernard's 29, he gets involved with a married 24-year-old woman named Barbara

Jean Dordy. And here's how they meet. His little meet cute for you, Georgia. Oh, God. Okay. These two first cross paths after Bernard delivers one of Barbara's children. The levels of fucked up in this, of that, I mean. The first thing I think of, and yeah, this is gross, so if

you're screaming, turn away, but how many women I know that have had kids that are like, oh, one of the first things you do is shit on the table. Yeah, you shit. Yeah. You like all of your, the low of half of your body is just going buck wild. I mean, she must have been something special if he saw all of that and then I was like, you know what, let's go to date. I don't know. Or he's like such a doctor and surgeon that he's just like, that is absolutely natural.

Right. No big deal. Everybody does it. Oh, I just, I'm bothered by that, but yes, okay. Yeah, I think you should be. So he's attracted to her. She's an incredibly beautiful woman. And she is attracted to his status.

He is a very wealthy and very well-regarded surgeon and kind of like local name. Yeah. So something to know about Barbara, her father owned a successful custom shoe business in Beverly Hills until the Great Depression hit and basically left their family with nothing. They end up having to move to the high desert.

And since then, yeah, Barbara dreams of getting her old life back and basically getting to enjoy all the benefits that come with money and status. That becomes like a real driving force in her life. Her reality doesn't really fulfill those dreams, though, she and her husband at the time, Lyle and their children, they're living a very modest life in Baldwin Park. So when she meets this surgeon

who apparently has eyes for her, it all kind of clicks, they start having an affair. And within a year, Bernard buys the house next door to the Dirty Family and moves his own family in a next door. No. Yeah. You got to keep it separated, you know? I mean, and then he hires Barbara to work at his clinic.

So he's messy. Yeah. And you will see, as I tell you this story, it's wild how truly messy this man is. But of course, as time passes, it becomes harder and harder for the two of them to hide this relationship. And in 1951, they both get divorced and then that same year on Christmas Eve, they get married to each other. And in a weird twist, their respective spouses, Francis and Lyle, now next door neighbors, now both heartbroken grieving exes eventually marry each other. Okay.

Yeah, I like that. I know I do too, actually. And it's one of the last nice things that happens in this story. They're not going on any double dates. That's what you're saying. No, not at all. No, there's no kind of makeup later on or anything. Okay.

So at first the new couple, Barbara and Bernard seemed very happy. He built her a huge house on a hilltop in West Covina and they really are living the life. They rub elbows with movie stars at the elite Los Angeles tennis club. Do you ever play tennis there when you were down there in Orange County?

Oh me and tennis, see me? Yeah, that's right. I know how much you love it. So this basically Barbara's dreams are coming true. It's like it truly is the turn she was looking for. And then the couple announces they're expecting a child, but behind closed doors things actually aren't going so well. And why Georgia do you think that could be? I mean, where do I start with this one?

Well, just with what you've heard so far. Uh, he's it. They both cheated on their spouses. Yeah. So he's already moved on to, yeah, to some new women. Journalist Stephen Mckylin wrote about this case for Los Angeles magazine. And he says, quote, a second marriage didn't keep Finch from carrying on with a Congoline of Parallel Moms. A Congoline is so scandalous. Right, wow. And so, of course, before long, there are rumors around town about his cheating

that get back to Barbara. So she's trying to put on this good face because they have this beautiful house and they all the things that she likes, but she's hearing bad stuff. And then she sees her husband walking with this gorgeous, very young red head while holding a bag of groceries.

And she's like on his arm. And so she hires a private investigator named William S. Lewis to follow her husband around. And when the report comes back, it's very bad news. Not only is Bernard having many casual flings with other women. So multiple, but he has a steady girlfriend. And Barbara knows her personally, because it's Bernard's newest married secretary. And her name is Carol Trigoff, the beautiful red head that he saw her with.

Basically, Bernard got himself a new Barbara. And Carol is 20 years old. Oh my God. And when she first started working as his secretary, she was 18 years old. So as the story kind of progresses, you see that this medical clinic that he has, like him and his partner are doing all the hiring and they're basically just like hiring

young ladies. So he's basically feeding his own congal line of congal line is like something so disturbing about it. It's just yeah. Yeah. So after eight years of marriage in January of 1959, Barbara kicks Bernard out of their house and files for divorce. Meanwhile, Carol has also filed for divorce. And now she lives in a house at Bernard is renting for her in Monterey Park. So when Barbara then kicks him out

after finding out that all of her worst fears are true, Bernard moves in with Carol. But he becomes extremely angry when he finds out the barber's filing for divorce, and that anger grows into rage when a judge decides the barber and not him will have complete control over the couple's assets during the divorce process. Wow. Yeah. That seems rare for that time period too.

Yes. And I think it's maybe because the proof she has of that this wasn't just irreconcilable differences. Yeah. So basically now Barbara gets to decide how and when her husband will spend what could arguably be stated as his money or the money he's made as a surgeon. But she's like, right, except for that when you marry a person, you agree to share all that money. So now, right,

right. I'm raising your children. And so that's like, yeah. Yeah. So, and if that's not bad enough for him, he's also facing the very real possibility that he's going to lose a lot in this divorce. At the time, California's divorce laws say that a spouse is entitled to half of the couple's total assets, but a judge could decide to give one spouse more depending on the nature of the separation. And since Bernard is clearly responsible for their marriage ending because of his arguably compulsive cheating, when the Finches file for divorce, Barbara will almost certainly get the bulk of the $750,000 fortune which in today's money is worth $8 million. Holy shit. Right. So Bernard, Frank just asked a couple things to say about this.

$8 million. He doesn't believe in divorce. So Bernard tries to do a little damage control. He convinces Carol to quit her job at the clinic and move to Las Vegas. He's like, you need to get out of town like that. All that argument needs to go away. She agrees. She moves there. She gets a job as a cocktail ratress on the strip. And then next he tries to convince Barbara to give him control over his spending.

When she resists him, he becomes abusive. And basically there's a story that I read about him hitting her with the butt of a gun, splitting her eyebrow, and then taking her into his own clinic to stitch up her eyebrow himself. Oh my God. And telling everybody there that she had fallen and hit her head on a table. So kind of a classic abuse scenario. Barbara stands firm and in June of 1959, she gets a restraining order against him. So she's like, none of this is changing and stay away from me. But now she's scared of him. So she calls the private investigator William S Lewis, and asks if he knows anyone who

could become her bodyguard. Although she never actually hires one, for reasons no one knows. What we do know is that Lewis tells Barbara that she should buy a gun for protection, but Barbara is terrified of guns and won't do it. Lewis will later remember her saying, quote, I probably won't be alive by Christmas. Oh my God. Yeah. So a month after Barbara gets her restraining order against Bernard on July 18, 1959, a call is placed from the Finch's house to emergency services. And when the police arrive around, it's like quarter to midnight at their house.

They find Barbara, who is just six days shy of her 36th birthday, lying dead in the yard. She's been shot in the back and there are contusions on her head. Oh, God. Her body is found at the bottom of the outdoor staircase that leads from their house across to their in-laws house next door. So Bernard's parents live next door to them. Investigators determine the barber was running to their house for help when she was shot in the back. So then police noticed the garage door is open and inside they see the barber's car is parked in its usual spot but there are signs of a struggle including dense on the walls and blood on the floor and her purse is missing.

on the walls and blood on the floor and her purse is missing. So on its face, this looks like a robbery gone wrong, but then police talk to the Finches 19 year old Swedish O'Pare, whose name is Marie Anne the Lynn Home, and she tells them that Bernard was at the house that night. He held a gun to Barbara's head, he beat Barbara, he assaulted Marie Anne, and that basically she was a witness to the entire evening. The next morning, police find a medical bag at the scene that contains, among other things, a rope, a large knife, syringes, and the sedative second all. And this bag belongs to Dr. Bernard Finch.

So investigators are now searching for Bernard, and soon they learned that after Barbara's shot, Bernard runs through the neighborhood around their house until he finds a car. It's an unlocked Ford station wagon with the keys inside, and he steals that car. He drives around a little bit. He stops, he finds another car. This one's a Cadillac, that also has the keys in the ignition because it's, you know, 1959. So people were doing that back then, I guess. He steals that Cadillac, and he drives it back to Carol's apartment in Las Vegas and

goes to bed. Jesus. He's arrested there the next day. So Carol will later claim that she was also at the Finches house on the night of the murder and that Bernard left her there. Wait, the girlfriend in Vegas was with him. Oh, when all of this took place, she was there. So she claims that she hid in some boogin via bushes while the police were scanning the property and

searching everything. She just stayed there frozen for six hours. And when the police finally left, she got up, walked to her car that they had parked down the street at the South Hills Country Club, like a block away. And then she drove back to Vegas. And when she got to her apartment, she finds Bernard there, and she tells him Barbara's dead. He tells her he can't discuss it. And then she goes to her cocktailing job,

that same afternoon. And Bernard is arrested at that apartment the next day. So Carol's taken into custody a week later. And at Bernard Finch's preliminary hearing, Carol admits to having an intimate relationship with Bernard, and then both Carol and Bernard are charged with Barbara's murder. Of course, when this case hits the papers, it is huge.

It's covered for months around the world, and when it's announced that Bernard and Carol will have a joint murder trial, they actually have to move the trial to a larger venue to accommodate such a huge crowd. Yeah. And because of the Finch's connections at the celebrity, very celebrity centric Los Angeles tennis club, many noteworthy people attend the trial, including Gail Patrick, who's a producer of the TV show Perry Mason. And the famous columnist, Dorothy Killgallon, who investigated the JFK assassination

and covered the trial of Dr. Sam Shepard. Wow. Which you covered on this show. Yes. So this thing was big, big, big. And also it's that classic thing of like, when somebody like a doctor, when rich people commit murder, everybody starts paying

attention. It has those elements to it. And a couple that did it together. A woman. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed.

A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed.

A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. A woman distressed. to rich people doing child stories. And like, oh, finally, they're the ones that are the bad guys. Right. All that kind of stuff. So the Finch Murder Case has all the salacious details that make a true crime story compelling, adultery, greed, a successful doctor, two beautiful women. So the public is hooked.

20-year-old Carol, in particular, is a magnet for the media as reporters of the day describe her facial features and the shape of her body in disturbing detail. Press photographers constantly are taking her picture. So she's almost like she just kind of becomes a a starlit in a way. She also makes a few questionable decisions that seem like they're kind of playing to this press attention. For example, one day she wears to court an expensive fur-trimmed dress suit that the friends of the Finches claim belong to Barbara. Oh, dear. Which is like, that's insane.

Or did she even know? Did he give it to her? Ooh, right. Who knows? Of course, the drama's only heightened when each side presents its case. So the defense argues that Barbara's death was an unfortunate accident.

You know when you accidentally get shot in the back while you're running away from your house? Just listen to this, because I think this is also one of the reasons it was so big is because it's truly insane. And it's that kind of thing of when people lie, and you can tell, oh, these are people that are used to being believed

no matter what. Right. So they don't know what a bad lie sounds like. Right. So basically, the defense argues a Barbara, not Bernard or Carol, was the aggressor. And the couple's attorneys say that Bernard and Carol just wanted to talk to Barbara that night

to convince her to move to Las Vegas for six months. And that way, her living there would qualify the Finches for a quicky divorce. And that's all. They were just there to say that. Sure. Bernard testifies that it was an innocent conversation that spiraled out of control, and that while the three were talking in the garage, Barbara pulled a gun on him.

Bernard becomes emotional as he tells the courtroom that he was forced to beat his wife's head against the floor because he was fighting for control of the weapon. So that's how she got the head injury. Jesus. And that's why the blood was on the floor. He also claims that during this altercation, the O'Pare, Marie Ann rushes into the garage and therefore he is forced to gently restrain her as he's trying to explain to her what's going on. And as he is forced to do this, that's when Barbara grabs the gun back and points it at Carol. Bernard testifies that he and Barbara fought over the gun a second time before he was finally

able to wrestle it out of Barbara's hands and just kind of throw it off into the distance But when the gun hits the ground it goes off and shoots fiber in the back Come on, dude. I mean just gross. Yeah, but he's so emotional and at this point he starts crying He tells the court that his wife's dying words are Quote wait. I'm sorry, I should have listened. Don't leave me. Take care of the kids.

Oh my God. What a fucking monster. Yeah. So gross. Yeah. Eric Ampler writes in Life magazine, quote, not only was Dr. Finch weeping, but jurors were weeping with him. At that moment, it was difficult to believe that he could be acting

or that this emotion was simulated." But as convincing as those emotions may have been, not everyone is buying his story, Bernard's entire testimony rubs many onlookers the wrong way. At one point during the trial, he justifies his many affairs by calling his now dead wife, quote, sexually frigid, and quote, there's also plenty of suspicion about Barbara's dying words being, I'm sorry, to a man who cheated on, abused, and harassed her. Also, people very much doubt the suggestion that Barbara would brandish a gun since she was so afraid of them. And one of the most obvious problems with Bernard's testimony involves the murder weapon itself.

His whole crazy story of tossing the gun, it lands in the yard, it shoots Barbara in the back, but then when the cops are searching the property, they never find a gun in the yard, they don't find a gun anywhere. And then there's Bernard's insistence that this was all an innocent meeting gone wrong. And the idea that Bernard and Carol, right after she takes out a restraining order against him, it doesn't make sense that Bernard would think Barbara would be able to have a conversation when they're surprising her at midnight in her garage. It's just nonsensical. All of it is very stupid. Yeah. So nothing in Bernard and Carol's defense adds up really. And as Steven McEulin points out in Los

Angeles magazine, Bernard's testimony doesn't explain why, quote, they parked a long block away at the South Hills Country Club carrying with them a case that contained among other things, a carving knife, syringes, second all, and a rope. Oh, you know, that's what's in my purse at all times on a fucking Tuesday. I mean, the cops at the time called it a murder kit. I mean, like, there's kind of no question. Do you think Carol was really there? Because I'm questioning like, is she faking it

to like give him an alibi in a way? Like, was she even there? That's what I wonder. No, she, well I believe she was there based on the things that I've read, but this is, and my completely ignorant and unprofessional opinion, this is a girl who started having an affair with like a 40 year old surgeon when she was 18. Yeah.

And now she's 20. Yeah. So I think she's very much under his influence. I think he has told her all the things she wanted to hear. She was in an unhappy marriage. So he got her out of that. And now all the promises of, this is a kind of man I think that said anything to any woman to get them into bed and to get what he wanted.

And then after the fact it was like, oh, now you're making problems for me. Totally. So I think he made her go with him. Well, because there's more to the story, but I believe she was there because I believe he left her there after the fact. Oh, please. Okay, tell me more. This is, yeah.

Okay, the prosecution, of course, is able to mount a strong case, thanks to two star witnesses. So of course, the first is Marie Ann Lindholm, the Finch's teenage opair, who's from Sweden. Marie Ann testifies on July 18th, Barbara was out at a local restaurant for dinner while Marie Ann was at home with the Finch children watching the Miss Universe pageant, and when that ended, she put the children to bed, and not long after that, she hears Barbara's car pull up the driveway and into the garage. And at that point, it was sometime after 11.30. And then she hears Barbara screaming for help.

Marie Ann says that she ran through the house, she burst into the garage, she turns on the lights, she sees Barbara on the ground, alive, but bleeding from the the head and Bernard is over her. When Bernard sees Marie and he walks over, grabs her by the face and slams her head into the garage wall so hard it leaves a dent in the plaster. And there's actually a picture of that dent with Marie and standing next to it in the Life Magazine article that I've been quoting from. Holy shit. Yes. So this is like, this is not one of those really mysterious murder cases. This is something that I think part of the sensation and part of the

salaciousness had to do with the fact that it was kind of all right there. Like it's like, why does this man do he's going to get away with it? You're trying to lie in this obvious fucking case. Yeah, make sense. Yeah. So Marie Ann then testifies Bernard ordered both women to get in the backseat of Barbara's car. Marie Ann tells the court how terrified she was in that moment because she genuinely thought she was gonna die. She had witnessed Bernard's abusive and threatening behavior towards Barbara before and Barbara had once told her that Bernard threatened to quote put her in a car and run her over a cliff. Fuck. End quote. So Marianne was convinced that Bernard was about to make good on that threat with the two of them in the car.

But she testifies that before the car leaves the garage, Barbara throws herself out of the back seat and sprints through the garage door running across their yard in the direction of her in-laws house. And that's when Bernard chases after her. And Marianne sees her chance to escape, runs back into the Finch's house, and calls the police. And as she's dialing the phone, she hears a gunshot outside. So he probably was gonna fucking do that. He probably was. And actually Barbara kind of sacrificed her, I mean, unknowingly sacrificed her life and saved Marianne's life.

Oh my God. The interesting thing is, Marianne never saw Carol, the girlfriend. So I don't think Carol was in the garage with them. Okay. But we don't know. Marie Ann's testimony has obvious weight to it. She has no reason to lie about what happened that night. And she also has letters to back up her claims about Bernard's abuse because she was so disturbed by the domestic violence that she had witnessed at the Finch home that she wrote about

it in letters to her parents. Wow. Welcome to Sweden. Yeah. And they were sent several months before Barbara's death, one letter, even documents Bernard's claim, that he has quote, a man in Las Vegas who he would pay thousands of dollars to kill Barbara. To kill Barbara.

It was, it's that thing where it's like, oh, behind closed doors, things aren't going well. Behind closed doors, it's a nightmare. Yeah, what a monster. Yeah. Okay, so this is when the second star witness comes onto the trial scene, and it is a man named Jack Cody. And Jack Cody is a 29 year old con man who met Carol through a mutual friend in Vegas.

And Cody has a very long rap sheet, which he very matter of factly admits to on the stand. He's been charged with drunken disorderly conduct, robbery, battery, and fraud. But putting somebody as risky as a witness on the stand as he is actually ends up being a very smart move by the prosecution because he's so charming and kind of flirtatious, he has this very unusual effect on the courtroom. And writer Eric Ambler describes that effect for Life Magazine saying, quote,

Cody belongs to that rare and remarkable subdivision of the human species, the amoral realists with no illusions about their own frailties and no sense of guilt. The odd thing about such men is that having no pretensions to being any less odious than they are, they sometimes achieve a kind of honesty. Such a man is a defense attorney's nightmare. He can admit to the basest behavior without the least trace of embarrassment. It's hard to discredit the testimony of a witness who stipulates so cheerfully to his own infamy. Wow, that makes total sense.

Yeah, but it's like you're willing to admit to all that shit you've done, why would you be lying about this other thing? Right, I like that. And this part of the story is where it gets a little bit Cohen-Brother's-y because, so Jack Cody testifies that weeks before Barbara's death, Bernard and Carol had hired him to murder her.

And Cody says he was supposed to stage the scene to look like a botched robbery, but Cody's not a hitman. Even still he decides to hear them out. So he testifies the couple gave him a photo of Barbara. They drew a map of the Finch's house. They picked a date, which was the 4th of July weekend. And he even testifies he was told to quote, say, this is for Bernard before he shot her. So Cody testifies Bernard and Carol gave him a down payment of $350, which is worth around

$3,700 today. And then they said, you'll get the rest when the job is done. So Cody says he did travel to California for the 4th of July, but he had no intention of going through with the couples plan. He just wanted to take their money and he basically took his girlfriend on an L.A. Getaway, on their dime. And when he went back to Las Vegas, he told Bernard and Carol that the job was done and they gave him another $850, which is worth $9,000 in today's money.

Holy shit! This con, he's a con man. He's not a hit man. He's not a hit man. He's a con man. So it is that funny thing where I was like, oh, I guess there is a little bit of like, yeah, you're admitting what your limit is.

Right. Sure, I stole the money from them, but I, yeah, I'm not going to kill somebody. Right. It doesn't take long for Bernard and Carol to find out the barber is still alive. And Cody testifies the couple demanded an explanation. So Cody tells them, oh, he must have killed the wrong woman. And he promises to return to West Covina and finish the job. But to do that, he's going gonna need a couple hundred more dollars.

So they do, in fact, give him another payment. And this time, he pockets that money and he just stays in town. So he's just in Las Vegas. This is very common, brothers. It's right? Who would play him in your mind? I feel like someone, you know,

like a Leonardo DiCaprio, if he wanted to just do a fun cameo. Yeah. Like a young, messy, good looking. Yeah. You know, charming in a way. Gossling. Ask.

Gossling could do it. Yeah. Absolutely. If he, like, he would have like super slicked back hair, maybe we ask him to dye it round. Some stubble, definite stubble. And then smokes like hand-rolled cigarettes. Absolutely.

And probably wears cowboy boots, because you know how that Vegas ride, little cowboyish, 50s, Vegas. Yeah. So then the couple hears through a friend that Jack Cody's still in town. And so Cody testifies that he told a couple, everything's under control,

because his partners are ready in West Covina, following Barbara, and that he's going to catch a flight out there himself once his partner tracks are down. Still a couple more days go by and then Bernard and Carol learn again that Cody's still in Las Vegas. So in cross examination, the defense realizes they can't tear Jack Cody's testimony apart. Yeah, he has nothing to lose. Every time he opens his mouth, he digs Bernard and Carol into a deeper hole.

The defense argues that Cody was simply mistaken. They claim that Carolyn Bernard never wanted Barbara dead. They only hired him to follow her around and dig up some dirt that could help Bernard in the divorce negotiations. Sure. The lawyers also say that if Cody couldn't find any dirt, he was supposed to seduce Barbara himself, and then that would give Bernard the chance to accuse her of infidelity.

But Cody doesn't buckle under this cross-examination pressure. Even when the defense attorneys go for the jugular and really press him, he never waivers. He's insistent that Carol and Bernard explicitly hired him to murder Barbara Finch. Yeah. So, in their closing arguments, a prosecution lays out its theory for what happened on the night of July 18th. They say, after getting fleeced by Jack Cody, Bernard and Carol decide to take matters into their own hands, and they drive to West Covina with the sole intention of murdering

Barbara, which is evident in the kill kit left behind at the scene. So from there, they tried to make it look like a bungled robbery which explains why Barbara's purse was missing. And over the course of the trial, Bernard admits that he did take her purse and never explains why. No one makes him explain why. The prosecution theorizes that their master plan was interrupted when Marie Ann came into the garage.

And this is when they realized that they were in over their heads. Carol Pannex rushes outside and hides in the bushes and Bernard decides he has to murder both Barbara and Marie Ann. And from there it all unravels. Bernard kills Barbara. He steals the two cars. to murder both Barbara and Marie Ann. And from there, it all unravels. Bernard Kills Barbara. He steals the two cars. He ditches the gun somewhere on the drive back to Vegas.

And he is either unaware or simply doesn't care that he left Carol behind at the scene. Yeah, that's weird. It's crazy. Right. Because I think he didn't, like once he shot Barbara in the back, he realized like this is all gone to hell.

Right. And he ran. Yeah. He ran alone, knowing he brought Carol there, ran alone, and jumped into a car and drove himself away, didn't drive back to pick her up. Like, yeah, ran. And in this apparently in this trial, when he is cross-examined by the prosecution and he's asked about these other women that he's had all these affairs with, and the prosecution asks him, did you tell them that you loved them? And he has all these smarmy remarks like, well, that would be the thing you would have to do. But he's saying stuff like that.

And she's sitting there, like going down for this murder. Yeah. Basically, that's how she realizes she has a bad boyfriend. Imagine the bad boyfriend you had at age 20, and that reveal coming during a murder trial that you are going down. Absolutely not. So the evidence against the two of them is overwhelming,

but in a shocking twist, after six days of deliberation, the jury announces that it's deadlocked. Sources report that there was infighting unrelated to the case that was going on among the jurors, and that it was racially based. So there is a Hispanic juror and there was a Black juror. Like there was a problem within the jury because they were on the jury. Right, and they were being targeted. Oh, yeah. So others suggest that some of them were swayed

by the defendant's social status, their good looks, and most importantly, their extreme fame during the proceedings, because these people became, you know, the real housewives of West Covina, essentially, during this whole thing. So either way, a second trial is set. The second trial also ends in a mistrial. What the fuck?

Yeah. It takes until 1961 for the state to take the couple to court for the third time. But now the atmosphere around this case is very different because Bernard and Carol are no longer tabloid stars. In fact, another murderer has taken over the spotlight. Do you remember the grandma from hell? I have a croger that I talked to Sacramento.

Oh, in Sacramento? No, no, she was in Santa Rosa. She was in the town right by Petaluma. Yes, yes. To me, it's like, it's vaguely Sacramento, maybe. Yeah. Sacramento's inland. Got it. We're Sacramento, maybe. Yeah. Is that, yeah. Sacramento's inland. Got it.

We're on the coast. Got it. But the Ivory Kroger case, the grandma from Hell case, they called it at the time, was all anyone was talking about. Wow. So this third trial, these two, like the jury, probably had no idea who they were. Right.

And it was kind of like, they got a clean slate. When the jury comes back at the end of this trial, Bernard is convicted of murder in the first degree. Carol is convicted of murder in the second degree. And they're both given life sentences with the possibility of parole after seven years. It only takes 10 years before both Bernard and Carol are released on parole. Come on. But you know that's everything to do with, yeah.

He's a surgeon, they're both white. This is money, this is what lawyers can get you if you have the money to buy them. This is all that. It's just so such bullshit that it's like 10 years like to take someone's life and tire fucking life. 10 years for this man to kill his children's mother. Yeah, I mean, yeah, who was terrified of him

because he was a monster. Yeah. And legitimately did shit wrong. Like, what the fuck, my God. Yeah, it's horrifying. So at this point, they have nothing to do with each other. Obviously, the second Carol gets out of jail, she changes her name.

She gets a job in the medical field, and by the early 1990s, she's become a respected supervisor at a Southern California hospital. One of Carol's colleagues actually tells Los Angeles magazine in the story that they did about this case that, quote, she was a wonderful boss. She was very kind, fair, and compassionate. I wonder if she had any idea when they were going over that his plan was to kill them. Like, did she know that?

Did he lie to her and say, we're going to scare her? Or something? You know, which isn't okay either, but I mean it. It feels like that can't be possible if she got Jack Cody involved and the whole green it was a hit man for high-ass. Yeah, she knew. Yeah.

There's, yeah, she's complicit, and the whole, the whole agreement was a hitman for high-ups. She knew. Yeah. Yeah. She's complicit, but it doesn't mean that she's this on the same level as he is, in my opinion. Yeah, but I get what you're saying. It's like she's kind of been brought under the spell of this obvious kind of psychopath who just does whatever he wants to, whoever he wants. When Bernard's released, there's a flurry of media interest and journalists immediately

start badgering him. Meanwhile, his California medical license has been revoked. He ends up getting licensed in Missouri and moving there to practice medicine. Yep. He immediately violates his probation by, by quote setting up a California girlfriend in an apartment in a nearby town end quote. So then news of that violation drums up you've been more publicity of the around the now infamous doctor. He at one point tells a journalist quote this type of thing just seems to follow me around. Okay, dude. And come on.

I mean, it's so wild. It's just like the entitlement of a person, this, just like, wow, you really see yourself as the victim here. Yeah, yeah. Within a few years, Bernard's medical license in California is reinstated. Come on. What is happening. Yeah.

As Stephen Maculan points out, this is surprising, given quote, his apparent intent to use medical equipment to kill his wife. Dude. Yeah. Bernard eventually returns to Southern California. He spends the rest of his life in Palm Springs. And in 1995, he dies of natural causes. But the LA Times, that so relentlessly covered his murder trial,

notably does not publish his obituary. It's unclear what happens to the other people involved with and in this case, like Jack Cody, we just know one knows what happens to most of them. Although we do know that after Barbara's death, Marie Ann Lynn home, she temporarily lives with Gail Patrick, the Perry Mason producer. Oh, but she eventually does return home to Sweden. But she never stops thinking about Barbara Finch. And in 1973, Marie Ann receives her final paycheck for $75 from the Finches in the mail. It was sent all this time later because Barbara's bank account had finally been unfrozen.

Wow, weird. And Marie Ann says, quote, I still dream of Mrs. Finch and the children having breakfast on the patio. It was seriously unreal for me. This beautiful family and their happiness destroyed in a second. And that is the story of the murder of Barbara Finch and the murder conviction of her husband Bernard Finch and his girlfriend Carol Traykoth. Wow. What a tragic mess. Horrible. That's just horrible because of this monster.

Wow, I'd never heard of that. And it was like a huge news story. That's wild. And a huge LA news story. Yeah, I wonder if, oh my grandma would have remembered that. That's crazy. Maybe your mom would. I remember what year she was born. Yeah, maybe.

Yeah, she might. She might. All right, well, today today I'm gonna tell you, listen, it's an unsolved disappearance. Your favorite. That's cold, I know we're not, that's not your favorite, and I understand. You know what, it's important to talk.

I think these cases, especially when they come up later and something happens, and it is important. That's, we're talking about my dumb preference of feeling unsatisfied by not getting answers. But the truth is, it's really important to talk about these cases. Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from. Well, Ann, the thing that's been happening lately

where then something comes up and it's been 15 years. Yeah. And then it's like, remember, you covered the boy in the box and they suddenly have an identification. They're getting solved. It's fucking amazing. They're getting solved. Yeah.

This one is fucked up and just sad, but there is a theory in it that I find very interesting and I think you will, too. OK. Because it's a theory has to do with someone you've covered in the past. Okay. So, this is the unsolved disappearance of a college student named Suzanne Lyle in 1998.

And my main source for this story is a 2012 episode of the investigation discovery show disappeared, which is so good. And also there's two podcasts that kind of cover this more in depth. And those are a podcast called Upstate Unsolved. And also one called True Crime Bullshit. Yes, True Crime Bullshit is the Israel Keys, that's the Israel Keys podcast. Oh, okay. I'm doing my arm thing. Yeah, fully in. Okay, the rest of the sources can be found in our show notes. So I'm gonna tell you about Suzanne. She is known by her family and friends as Susie. So I'm gonna call her that from now on.

She's born in 1978 to Mary and Doug Lyle. Grews up in the small town of Belston, Spa, New York. It's near Saratoga Springs, if that means anything to you. I don't know. I don't either. The only reason I know about this stuff is because she ends up going to the same college as my ex, so I'm like, in upstate New York. SUNY, O'Neil, whatever, he sucked, so I don't care. But yes, okay. Suzy is a very intelligent child. As a teenager, she becomes interested in computers.

And this is the 90s, mid 90s. So like computers are not, not a thing that a lot of people are really interested in. She's one of those people who is, who's finds them fascinating. And she also builds her own computers by taking a part of computer, adding things to it to make it better. So she's obviously, So she's brilliant. And probably would have had this incredible career in computer sciences, you know. She... Shy, she doesn't have the easiest time socializing in high school.

And she, as an outlet, loves writing poetry. Her mom says about her once that while she was in the shower, she jumps out of the shower. It's still running. She has shampoo in her hair and her mom's like, what are you doing? And she basically tells her mom while she was in the shower, she got a poem in her head and had to get out to write it down.

So like very sweet, very lovely. An artist. Yeah. But she does find friends online and is able to connect with other teenagers nearby who are into computers. She's asked to join a local computer club which meets in a coffee shop in her hometown. Oh, the 90s. Oh, the 90s.

I mean, it's coffee shops and like the idea that you would meet online and then make a plan immediately to meet in real life. Because that's so charming. Like now, you have known someone for 15 years on Instagram and have never met them in person. You know what I mean? Yeah. But you really love them as a real friend.

I feel like you know more about them than their like real life friends do probably. So yeah, it's very weird. Yeah. Of course, her parents at the time, it's the internet in 1998. They're like, I don't think you're going to meet these random people. Her dad takes her to the meeting and realizes it's just a bunch of teenagers interested in computers, very innocent. Yeah.

So the president of the computer club is a boy named Richard Condon. He likes Susie immediately and has to kind of convince her by pursuing her for a couple of months to go out with him. But they do start dating Suzy's 16, Richard's 17, they fall in love. Suzy graduates from high school with honors and goes to college at SUNY, ONIANTA, but eventually she transfers to the University of Albany.

She says it's because they have a better computer program, but also it's closer to her boyfriend, Richard. Oh. So, you know how it is back then with the boyfriend. Yes. Absolutely. So then on Monday, March 2, 1998, during her second semester at Albany,

Susie takes a midterm exam. After the test, she goes to her job at the nearby Crossgates Mall. She has a job at a store called Babages, which sells software and video games. It's just, everything is like beige in the 90s, gray and beige computers. Her boss says she had been nervous about the midterm test. So when she comes in, she's a little subdued. She says she thinks she did OK.

Just normal, her normal life, she's living it. She works at the store until closing time at 9 p.m. and leaves them all at about 9.20 to take the bus back to campus. So the bus driver remembers seeing her get on the bus, but didn't notice when she got off. But someone else comes forward later and says that they did see her on the bus and get off at her stop, which was called in circle around 945. So

people did see her. But the next day Tuesday, March 3rd, Susie's boyfriend, Richard calls her parents to tell them that she never came back to her room the night before. Richard goes to a different college, also in the Albany area, and he says usually Susie would have called or emailed him when she got back for the night, but he says he had been trying to get in contact with her since the night before and has not been able to get in touch. So just calls her parents immediately because he knows how out of character this is for her. Yeah. Susie's father calls the University of Albany campus police. The police are very dismissive and say it's a college student. Of course, she's not showing up. That's like what they do, you know, and they kind of blow them off. But her parents

and her boyfriend, as I said, no, something is not right with this. Susie's like so fucking reliable. So Susie's father does gets in the car and makes the half-hour drive to Albany and at the family's insistence the police go into Susie's room, nothing is a mess, there's nothing out of place. And they also go to her class that she's supposed to be in that day but she's not there either, again totally not like her. So Susie's mom calls the bank to ask if Susie's ATM card had been used. And the person from the bank tells her that it actually had just been used in the past couple of minutes to withdraw $20.

Oh. So that happens at about 4 p.m. around 19 hours after Susie was last seen. The withdrawal is at a Stewart's convenience store about two miles from campus, which is in an area that Susie's known to frequent. So it's not until Wednesday, two days after Susie is last seen, and after she's missed another midterm, that finally the campus police call the New York State Police to assist with their investigation.

So like, so long after. Yeah, so long. Once the police do get involved, they put flyers up all over Albany and search 300 acres in the area around campus, but they don't find anything. The biggest clue, of course, is that ATM transaction. surveillance cameras at the Stuart store record a man in a Nike hat around the time the transaction took place. But he's like interviewed. He's later found not to be a suspect and there's no

security cameras pointed at the ATM So they could just see who who was like in the store and apparently wasn't the sky. Okay, but also the bank records show that Susie's pin Was entered correctly and the only two people who knew the pin to her ATM card was Susie and her boyfriend Richard Right and the other thing is it's only $20 was taken out to her ATM card with Susie and her boyfriend, Richard. Mm-hmm, right? And the other thing is, so only $20 was taken out. She had like $150 in the bank. And Susie's mother says that her daughter always took only $20 at a time.

Like that was the way she operated. You don't take out more than that. Yeah, well, according to my dad, you absolutely should because if they're going to charge you a fee, then you should be taking out the maximum amount. But Vince says that too. I never did that before. But I think that's a complete habit of being a student. You're constantly like, you don't want to take any more out because you'll spend it if you take it out.

Oh, yeah. It's like you need money for this and that. If you only have a little bit in there anyways, yeah, you'll spend it. And at the time in life, you couldn't use an ATM to pay for shit, like a normal, like a credit card, remember? Oh, right. You could only get cash out. I feel like that was just not a lot of places that took debit cards.

Not until later in the 90s. I would say. Yeah. Okay, so another clue comes two months later in May when Suzy's employee ID from the computer store is found on the ground near the bus stop at Collins Circle, which is the one she always got off on that someone's a hard-get-off on. Or if I can employ ID is found there like in the grass. And it's not found by the police, it's found by a couple students who like saw it there.

So of course, this raises a lot of questions about the thoroughness of the initial police investigation. It's a very bad look. And the card is a little beat up, like it looks like it's been through the elements and been sitting out there for quite some time. So like it was there originally. Yeah, not good. And because it's been sitting out there so long, they're not able to lift any forensic evidence from it. Right. So one of Susie's co-workers at the mall tells investigators that Susie said she was being stalked.

This happened about a month before her disappearance. She said it was a person Susie didn't know, but that Susie didn't seem to be that afraid of this person, but that's the only information about this that we have. Just so random. In the weeks after Susie's disappearance, as I said, around 300 acres are searched a total of 270 leads are followed up on, but no other evidence has ever turned up. That's fucking it. It should just be so frustrating. Let me tell you about this theory that's come up. There's a lot of theories that have come up. Not a ton, some people think Richard,

her boyfriend is involved, some people think his parents like help cover it up. Allegedly, there's just some questions around that. But it sounds like the kind of theorizing that is allowed to happen when there's very little information and people are kind of grasping at straws and trying to make things add up. Right. Like one of the issues that they have with the boyfriend and the parents or that

the parents wouldn't allow the boyfriend to talk to the police without their presence, which as we know is like, should be protocol. Yeah. You should be with, you should have a lawyer or, you know, someone there with you. So, Wait it, they're smart enough probably to know that like the boyfriend or the husband is the first person anyone looks at. So he's in, it's a serious conversation.

Right. If he's going to have it. Yeah. So, as you said, of course, Israel Keys comes into play, which when I read this story initially, I was like, I just got the facts of it, and then I looked it up on Reddit, and then that's when all this fucking Israel Keys shit comes up, and I was like, holy fucking shit. Can I just say right now, I was listening to True Crime bullshit around Christmas time. And I remember Josh Hallmark, who is the host, talking about this particular victim. Really?

Yes. And I just have to say, if you are into true crime and you are into this kind of like real investigation, really victim, centric problem solving, Josh Hallmark is doing amazing work. He literally is trying to solve these cases for the families because there is potentially missing people that can be tied back at least to the movements of Israel keys and he's just trying to take those theories and

then he's worked with that older couple that searches for bodies in bodies of water. Yes. I covered that. Yeah. Like, he basically takes the theories that he's put together really does intense research and investigates and calls people and talks them. He has a team of researchers. Wow.

I can't believe the work that Josh Hallmark is doing. And if you, like, if you have any interest in all in any of that kind of stuff, you have to listen to True Crime Bullshit. It's an incredible podcast on the internet. And he's been doing it for years. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. And the other one, upstate unsolved, their entire first season is about this case. And they'd like interview people from the case, including the detective.

Oh, wow. The original detective. So like, yeah, there's a lot going on. It's really fascinating. Okay. So let me just tell you a couple of the things about Israel keys and why people think that he's involved with it. People should know, Israel keys is a serial killer. He killed himself in prison and he was only,

I think it was three or four like confirmed murders, but it's thought that there were a lot more. He's a fucking monster. In fact, what was the book about him called? American Monster. American Monster. Yeah. He's just a nightmare.

Actually, if you if you are interested in the Israel Key story, please go start listening to True Crime Bullshit season one, because that is a person who is doing this story so correctly and in minute detail with every theory being explored, it's incredible. Yeah. All right, so at the time Israel Keys lived about three hours away from Albany in Constable, New York. However, which is like far enough, it's like close enough

to be like that's where that he was in enough, it's like close enough to be like, that's where that he was in the area, but far enough a way to be like, yeah, but like you can't just tie it together on that alone. However, he joined the army that same year that Suzy went missing, and he joined out of the Albany recruitment center. Oh, which was on the same road,

like down the street from the mall she worked at. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I guess it's confirmed. And I'm sure Josh Holmerk has a lot of this info. He was there sometime between January and March because he had it, you know, it's not, you don't just go and sign up, you have to go and take tests and do all the shit. So he was there during that time, right, which is like a college group goes missing and Israel fucking keys is in town at that time. Like that is bad. Yes it is.

And also it's bad because any distance away, the thing that he became known for was that he would, he lived in Alaska, he would fly in to one city, rent a car and then drive hours and hours, murder people, and then drive back. So he had the full consciousness of how people get caught, how police track people down, and he was intentionally making moves to seem like,

it couldn't be him. And that's what's so creepy about that story. Yeah, so creepy. There's also a credible witness who comes forward later when she sees like a documentary about Israel keys and says that she believes he was the man who was stalking her while she was in a Marshall's car park and approached her and like said some creepy shit and she saw,

you know, years later his photo and got chills and was like, that's the fucking guy. He like creeped me out. Yeah. And that Marshall's car park was very close to the mall as well. Yes. And we have to remember that Israel Keys was an early online like internet user. And also a fucking gamer. Yeah. Which Susie was as well. So him having been in that area, gone to them all, it makes total sense that he would have gone into the store where she worked, which is a computer store. And later when the investigators did a laptop search on Israel Keys' computer, it was discovered that some of his victims had been met through online gaming.

Yeah. So it's just fucking ads up. It's adding up. Yeah. This to me is like so creepy. The night that he kidnapped the victim, Samantha Konegg, he took her ATM card. He made her give him the password. It took the card to the ATM and took out $20 to make sure she hadn't lied about her pin number.

Uh-huh. $20 fucking dollars, right? Like, yeah. Why would anyone have just taken out 20? Like, it doesn't make any sense, right? Like, you take out as much as you can at an ATM. That's like when you're, it's about robbery. That's what you do.

Oh, the robber. Yeah, sorry. I thought you were saying, it sounded like you were saying where I'm like, wait, we just talked about why she would take out only $20 But you mean why would he take out? Yeah, okay, right? Like that's an mo. That's a total mo. Yes Okay, this this to me is the most compelling After Israel keys died investigator John 44 matches Between image files on his computer that also showed up in the Namus database, which

of course we know is missing people. And so he had basically looked up Suzy on Namus. That is compelling. You know? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So other than the fact that the FBI says his murders began in 2001, so they don't totally believe it. And he also said he killed us and out of people. It's like, well, can we believe this

fucking monster, you know? Well, also, there's a lot of theories. And now I'm so afraid to say anything because I think any theory I'm about to postulate right now is absolutely Josh Hallmark's theory that I've heard. And then it's kind of settled in the back of my mind. Yeah. But I believe one of the things is if he was involved in her murder, it maybe it was the very beginning of him actually moving to murder. It could have been assault before. It could have been other attacks before. Yeah.

But if he murders her and then immediately signs up for the army just to get out of town, just to get out of the country, that is another piece as well where it's his early days. They only caught him at the end and then everything is a backwards build. So those early days of how he actually went from who he was, you know, as a teenager in his 20s to the serial killer, he became the Z a mystery. And I think he started killing after he got out of the army. So like maybe this was like, I know I'm about to go on the army for a long time. I wanna do this thing. I have to do it now.

And then it'll be harder to accomplish when I'm in the army and being watched and constantly around people. And it's the perfect, I'm getting shipped out. So I just won't be suspected and I might be around to be. Right. Yeah. I don't know. That's really compelling evidence. I just absolutely. I don't want to take it away. I don't want to take away from the fact that it's, you know, the husband did it. The husband and the boyfriend are always suspicious. Like, let's not totally

rule that out. But this stuff is is weird. Yes, for sure. An infamous and very prolific serial killer being in the area needs to be front and center in this discussion, for sure. Definitely. So the aftermath is that the liles bless them, they turn their grief into action, they're instrumental in getting several laws passed addressing campus safety and missing persons. The first is a New York law that requires universities to file prompt reports on missing students as opposed to just assuming they'll turn up as they did with Susie. It also requires that they have detailed plans in place for the investigation of violent

felonies. The bill is known as Suzanne's Law and passes April 6, 1999, which would have been Susie's 21st birthday. Wow. So these are the people that, you know, you're just in awe of because they're grieving, they're going through so much shit, but they channel that to help other people, and other families, and other victims. Right.

It's amazing. And now April 6, which was Susie's birthday, is known as Missing Persons Day in New York. Oh, wow. Yeah. But they don't stop with the state law. They also lobby for a federal Susanne's law. And this one raises the age limit for when local police must report missing persons' cases to the National Crime Enforcement Center. So previously, the age was 17 when they were required to report. And because of Suzanne's law, it changed us to 21 years old. And so Doug and Mary also found an organization called the Center for Hope with their

mission being to provide resources to support families of missing persons and help them cope with all the pain and uncertainty surrounding the disappearance of a loved one. Susie's father, Doug Lyle, unfortunately dies in 2015. His obituary details, even more of the projects, he spearheaded to advocate for the missing. He had like coasters made of missing persons that he would give to bars to put out. And also like the playing cards of cold cases that they would deliver to prisons, which is incredible. He also wrote a guide for families called, what to do if a loved one goes missing?

Because like those resources don't exist for people. Right, it's incredible. This past April marked the 25th anniversary of Susie's disappearance. Mary Lyle told a reporter that she's never given up hope saying, quote, every time we went on a conference, every where we went, I'd be sitting in that airport looking at every single face. I'm still hoping. And that is the story of the disappearance of Suzanne Lyle and the resilience and perseverance

of the Lyle family. Wow, great one. Fucked up, right? Well, just the idea that this is a thing that happens so often and so often in this country and now like there are luckily people like Derricka, Natalie Wilson at the Black In Missing Foundation who are dedicating all of their time 100% their jobs every day to bring these cases to light that the press doesn't cover and the media doesn't cover.

Obviously, the missing and murdered indigenous women, which is a scourge, it's not just something that's happening. It's like happening in numbers that are shocking and have to change. And there's people that are focused and trying to do something about it in this way, but it's, there is such this gray area that people just get, it's a purgatory that the families get stuck in. Yeah, just such a horrible kind of unending tragedy

place that they're in. Totally. Yeah, and I think it's important to like shine a light on those, you know, there's so many podcasts like in your own backyard and up and vanished that if those podcasts hadn't brought some light to these cold cases, I don't think they're solved now and I don't think they would have been. It's just wild. It's so important. It's incredible. All those people that do that work are. Totally. Incredible people. We are here to support you with our blather and our stories.

And our money, let's give $10,000 to one of those places. Yes, let's do it. Let's give $10,000 to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Their mission is to find missing children, reduce child sexual exploitation and prevent child victimization. They are at missingkids.org if you want to join us in donating them many. Perfect.

Yeah. I mean, it's a good one, but it's like every one of these stories where it just leaves you with a pit in your stomach. Totally. Yeah, totally. Well, it's nice sometimes to substitute the pit you already had in your stomach with something about someone else and then think, okay, what can I do to help? Yeah.

That's a way to go about pits in your stomach in this world. An actionable pit. Yeah, that's what we need. That's what we're trying to do. That's right. Alright, well, thanks for listening this week. Thank you. We appreciate you as always. And stay sexy. Alright well thanks for listening this week. Thank you. We appreciate you as always and stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye.

Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our producer is Alejandra Keck, our senior producers, Hannah Kyle Critan. This episode was edited and nixed by Leonis Bellacci. Our researchers are Marin McClashan and Ali Oken. Email your hometowns and fucking arrays to my favorite murder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my favorite murder and Twitter at my favorite murder. Goodbye!

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