My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 395 - Your Mom Has a Headache

Episode Date: September 28, 2023

This week, Georgia tells Karen about the life and execution of the Queen of England, Anne Boleyn.For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Mike Williams set off on a hunting trip into the swamps of North Florida, where it was thought he met his fate by a group of hungry alligators, except that's not what happened. And after the uncovering of a secret love triangle, the truth would finally be revealed. Listen to over my dead body, gone hunting early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Music Hello! And welcome to my favorite murder.

That's Georgia Hard Stark. That's Karen Kilcaref. This is a quiet episode, so no talking. Even us. This is your mom has a headache. Listen. A long day. Can you kids be quiet in a one second?

Play the game. Who can be the quietest? I can't wait to let on a kid. Let's see who can be the quietest. I want to sit to my nephew who like refused to eat. Like let's see who can be the quiet. I want to to my nephew who like refuse to eat. Like let's see who could eat this hot dog fastest. Just to get him to like eat something. And he did it.

It worked. It fuckin' worked. I mean, I ate it fastest. Let's be honest. You won. You kicked his ass. Nice. Congratulations.

How old was he at the time? He was like eight. You won. I'm a great ante. You're teaching that eight. You won. I'm a great auntie. You're teaching that eight-year-old with the real world is like. Exactly. Eat or be eight. That's right.

You think people are going to be nice to you at the hot dog eating contest? They're not. No. You're going to wait around for you to eat a hot dog at the hot dog eating contest? No. It is every hot dog man for himself. From the world. From the world. From the world. From the world. From the world. at the hot dog eating cut does? No, it is every hot dog man for himself. For the poor person, hot dog person.

We're doing it again. We're talking about hot dogs again. What the fuck? I don't, I want someone to please go back, Alejandra, and because I'm not gonna make a listener do it, that would be rude. And she can see of every hot dog conversation has been started by me.

What if Alejandra clicked on it was like, no, I'm going to actually say no to that. Is my favorite though? So I. She's in. She's down. I just want to see if I'm the hotdog pusher, you know what I mean? I do think hot dogs are funny and fun to talk about. So yeah, absolutely. Even if you started, I'm here to dogs are funny and fun to talk about. So, yeah, absolutely.

Even if you started, I'm here to absolutely finish it. Hot dog-wise. My hot dog. My nephew's hot dog that he won't finish, because he doesn't eat. Are you allowed to grab other people's hot dogs out in their mouth at a hot dog eating contest? Is that something you do?

You get extra points if you eat someone else's hot dog. It's called a snatch away. Natch. Hot a snatch away. Snatch. The hot dog snatch away. What? And this is the PG-13 episode of my favorite murder welcome. True crime. True crime.

Some comedy. Clearly comedy. Obviously. Definitely. Hot dog talk is Alejandra just coined it perfectly. Oh, should we start off with a corrections corner, a real piece of business? Definitely.

I did Lori Valo last week. If you weren't here listener, I did one story Oh, should we start off with a corrections corner, a real piece of business? Definitely. I did Lori Valow last week. If you weren't here, listener, I did one story and I did it for so long that we had to take a break and now George is doing her story this week. But in talking about Doomsday, Lori Valow, I made a couple mistakes that a listener named Kim Chapman was nice enough to tweet about. I believe this is, yeah, it's a tweet from the social media platform X.

And Kim Chapman says, episode 394 corrections, Chad was a cemetery sexton, but it has nothing to do with the church. So we broke that up as like, it sounded like he worked at the church and then also sometimes Doug Graves. Our confusion about that is he was just like the outside guy. as like it sounded like he worked at the church and then also sometimes dug graves. Uh-huh. Our confusion about that is he was just like the outside guy.

Oh, so he wasn't, it was like a higher, a four-hier grave digger thing. You know what? Why am I saying? Kim Chapman knows, I don't know. I didn't know at the time. Why would I be the one making up a new correction to you essentially? A sexton.

Oh, was it? Because yes, a cemetery sexton. As we all are, we love to tell a tale. No, anyway. So here's the real correction. Yeah. Chad was a cemetery sexed in. There's nothing to do with the church. And also, Laurie's trial was not live streamed. Even the audio, it had to be purchased to listen to after the day ended. What? I mistakenly said to after the day ended. What? I mistakenly said, because it was being audio recorded, but I kind of interpreted that for some reason

in my head as livestreamed. So like if to go to like, bitly and like, fucking download illegally, because the fucking recording of it. What again? I'm not gonna speculate. I refuse to speculate. I'm gonna say that's correct.

These days. Here's the thing though, I'm gonna say, Kim Chapman, I'm not going to speculate. I refuse to speculate. I'm going to say that's correct. These days, here's the thing though, I'm going to say, Kim Chapman, I really appreciate you sending in those corrections. You seem like a true crime devotee that knows what you're talking about. And I appreciate it as the kind of devotee that does not know what I'm talking about almost ever. I really appreciate your expertise. We need a you on this. I bet she knows who brings up hot dogs all the time. I hope she knows she'll be like next week. It's always Georgia, except for one time in December as a Christmas present. It was Karen. Cool. I'd like to formally apologize to the lovely woman who was walking by Vince and I

and Cookie having breakfast in our neighborhood on the sidewalk today. And then Cookie's dog, Barton, her dog's face, and then she said, Cookie has a dog? No. Cookie's dog, Barton, this lovely lady's dog's face. Cookie is.

Sorry. What? You're saying Cookie's dog barked in the lady's dog's face, but you mean Cookie barked in the lady's dog's face, you mean cookie barked in the lady's dog space. Yes. And then the lady said, oh my god, I'm listening to you right now. And then I was like, that's crazy. Oh no, like now you think I have a attack dog who's really rude.

And she was like, I don't even care about my dog. I'm listening to your podcast. Should a very cute like doodle of some sort. That was just like trying to be friendly. And then cookie was just like, I'm tiny. I'm a chihuahua, essentially, I'm an otaku. But don't you like the idea? Because for some reason you kept saying cookie's dog,

that cookie would have an even smaller dog for herself. Do you know how hard I've been trying to get Vince to get cookie? Let me get cookie, a smaller dog. And then how many pets would that be in the house if you did that? Five. And he made me promise when we got mo cookies kitten that it'll be 10 years until we get another pet. It's not working. Well, you can shop until then. And I do. I mean, I shopped adoption places. I don't shop places. That's right. And we wouldn't support shopping

for pets. It's just insane. It doesn't make sense. There's so many that need a home. Oh. These days adopt people. Come on adopt. I am reading or listening to an audiobook, Mystic River. And it is so good, but so fucked up. Dennis LeHane, it's by Mystic River.

And it's like a true crime fucking novel legendary novel. Yeah, it's really good. Nice. And depressing. Right. It's kind of intense. What about you?

What are you doing? Can't talk about much because of the strike, but that's right. What I can't talk about is I went home to Penduluma very briefly just for like to go to a party essentially. Yeah. Which was very fun. But I was on an airline. I won't name check them because there's so much of that going on lately.

But I'm just going to be like, it wasn't, I'm not complaining per se. But there is no room in this one airline I was on between your knees and the back of the seat in front of you, and I am five-six. Yeah. How does anyone do it? That's even half tall. Truly, I got in one of those airplanes that should not be named in the bathroom.

I'm five-five, and I could barely turn around and move in it. You know what I mean? Like how do humans average size rates? They're adjusting things past the point of like that people can deal with it. It's not enough room. When did it stop being like about the customer on the airplanes?

I think somewhere in the middle of COVID where they said we can get away with everything. And let's stack chairs on top of each other. And just like jam everyone in. The reason I didn't pay attention to it on the flight up was because I was in an exit row. Oh, extra room. So once I was in their regular rows, I was like, oh my god, I think I might have claustrophobia.

Yeah. You know, Vince had a panic attack on in an exit row on a plane and he's because he's like six three Yeah, and he was in the middle seat Because he always gives me the window and he had a panic attack And they had to do like is there a doctor here thing? Oh shit Like put his leg his head between his legs Freaking out and was it because their people were just too close to him? Yeah, I think he got claustrophobic But yeah, it was very scary.

I should have given him the window. I still feel guilty about that. But isn't that just a different version of being enclosed? I don't think you should feel guilty about that. And he always says, I pee more, so you sit on the inside because I'm going to get up more than you do. Right, and also, I think Panic attacks, man, I've had many in my day.

Happy old, like real legit panic attacks. I had a panic attack, this, I love telling these stories, but once I started having seizures, I had a whole era of panic attacks because I was like, oh, I could drop it any moment. And then I would start looking around trying to prepare for it. What would I do right now if I were to actually? Just crazy. And then one time start looking around and trying to prepare for it. What would I do right now if I were exactly just crazy. And then one time I was

driving up the 101 going 75 miles an hour and I realized I could have a seizure right now. And it was right in between the Vyneland exit and Laurel Canyon where it kind of does a big S. And there's no where to pull over. Yeah. So wait, isn't that when you drink cold brew? No, the cold brew was when I started crying with my emotions. That's right. But I just wept for no reason. See, I've always just had a low level.

A low median level of anxiety, but I don't get panic attacks. Think fucking God, you know what I mean? Well, the problem with them is they come on like a heart attack. Like I'm sure Vince thought he was having a heart attack because all of a sudden your system goes bonkers Well, the problem with them is they come on like a heart attack. Like I'm sure Vince thought he was having a heart attack is all the sudden. Your system goes bonkers and you're just like, what's happening? What am I doing right now?

Which makes you panic more. Yes. Yes. And if you are like in enclosed spaces, worst case scenario, because he, all you can think is don't do this right now. Like I can't be doing this, which makes it worse, worse, worse. Yeah, luckily our seat mate who was sitting on the outside row was so sweet and like, you know,

I was sort of pressing like buttons like the light button above my head. I mean like we need help and I was panicking and then he was like press that, you know, got people to come around. He was very nice. Well, because he was like the outside. Right, you know, he could be a was very nice. Well, because he was like the outside. Right.

You know, he could be a little more detached or whatever, because that's, that is scary. Um, I hope no one's on a plane right now. Oh. Hey, are you on a plane? Don't worry about it, because one millions of flights go off every day. Yeah.

I just flew twice this weekend. Everything's fine. I hope you don't have a talker than it next to you. That's worse than anything, really. Unless it's your partner. In which case, I still don't want to talk that much when we're on a plane, you know? You know, you have to do.

If you get a talker next to you, you just lean over and say, I'm so sorry, I have COVID. And then they won't talk to you anymore. What turn to I need? I don't report you. You don't report you to the CDC. That's brilliant.

Should we do exactly right corner? Let's do it. Okay, we have a podcast network. It's called exactly right media. Here are some highlights. Well first to start off, we want to wish a happy first birthday to buried bones, the legendary historical true crime podcast hosted by Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes. Join us in celebrating Paul Holes and Kate Winkler Dawson because this week they discussed

the date and strangler who terrorized Ohio City in the first decade of the 20th century. And on Wicked Words, which comes out every Monday, Kate talks to Sandra Hempel, the author of the book, The Inheritors Powder, a tale of arsenic murder and the new forensic science. And this week, on I said no gifts, Bridger's guest is the hilarious Claudia O'Dordy. She is such a rad Australian actress, I'm such a fan of hers, she's darling and so funny. Okay, so the fourth episode of Infamous International,

the Pink Panther story is out now. Woo! Yay, it's titled The Pursuit, And as the Pink Panthers become a global threat, a special interval task force steps in. And thank you guys so much for supporting Infamous International. It is at right now on the true crime list, is at number 14, and overall it's at number 34, which is really huge. You guys know as well as we do. You guys know more than anybody.

There's thousands and thousands of podcasts out there. You could be listening to anything you want. So the fact that you guys really do show up and support us every single time means the world to us. It's so exciting to see it do so well. And of course that means you guys have rated, reviewed it, and subscribed it. And that's how they get on those lists.

And that means more people find it. And we're so proud of this newest show. So thank you guys so rated, reviewed it, and subscribed it. And that's how they get on those lists, and that means more people find it. And we're so proud of this newest show, so thank you guys so much for supporting. And then, as temperatures start to drop, we want to ensure that your Tootsies stay warm. Aaron Brown, come on. Don't miss out on some cute MFM socks in our merch store at myfavoretmortar.com. I have a few pairs of those socks. They're very cozy and cute and make me happy.

So check those out. Exposed, cover up at Columbia University, the new podcast from Wondery and Dr. Death Host, Laura Beale, tells the story of the women behind the case against Dr. Robert Hadden. At first, Dr. Hadden seemed like the kind of OB-GYN you recommended to your best friend. Calm, knowledgeable, and greeted everyone with a smile, but his cheerful demeanor hid and ugly truth.

Dr. Robert Haddon was found to be a serial predator who abused hundreds potentially thousands of patients over his decades-long career. Once these stories began to see the light of day, one question remained. How was this position who was trusted with the lives of so many, able to get away with this for so long? And when the powerful institution he worked for was confronted with these accusations, did it choose to protect its own reputation?

Listen to Exposed on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to Exposed early and add free on Wondery Plus. Get started with your free trial at Wondery.com slash plus. And now it's time for this week. It's Georgia time, right? Yeah. It's my time to shine, Karen. Sit back. Okay Okay. I'm gonna really try to stay out of your spotlight I wish you wouldn't and you're gonna like this one This is a good one for Karen It's almost like I'm telling you your favorite bedtime story really it's not a cold case. Thank you It's not a you know

What else do I love it? It's not the transcript of a 911 call. It's not any of those things Okay, today Karen I'm gonna tell you about the first queen to be executed, Ann Bolin. Oh my! Her eyes is lit up. Yes. And are you gonna talk about her outfits at any point in this story?

No, but I can add some stuff in. I can add in, you know, what are we talking about? Like, puffy sleeves and head dresses and... I think it was Ann Bolin. Yeah, head dresses, right? I think maybe on pure waste where it's like... Uh-huh. Cuts off under your boobs.

Like cleavage for days, right? cleavage time. Yeah. Like not just cleavage like top of boob, you know, whatever that's called. Just a full double serving every day a night. How did they do it? Mmm, they didn't, they had to execute her because of it. Okay. That's right. So Karen for close to 500 years Ann Bolin has been described and portrayed as a power hungry social climbing seductress, who was ultimately beheaded for carrying on affairs

with five men, including her own brother. But what's true about her reputation and what's a bunch of bullshit? Let's take a closer look at Queen Elizabeth the first misaligned mother Ann Bolin. Ann Bolin, we've heard a lot about her over the years. So the main sources I used for this story are two books. One is called Anne Berlin, 500 years of lies by Halen Nolan.

And the other is the life and death of Anne Berlin by Eric Eives and the rest of my sources can be found in the show notes. So Anne Berlin is born sometime between 1501 and 1507. Most historians agree that she's born close to the 1501. Her parents are Thomas Bolin and Elizabeth Howard. The Bolin family has commoner roots and great grandfather was a merchant, but he got pretty successful at it and the family had been on the rise in England for about three generations, because of, of course, advantageous marriages, which we know all about here in Los Angeles.

And shrewd real estate investing, another fucking thing we know all about. That's right. Thomas the dad works in the court of King Henry VII, and then in that of his daughter's future husband, King Henry the eighth. So they're like, you know, warm in their way into the,

a braassha lawn of like, yeah, court. In 1513, when Anne is 13 years old, she's sent to live in the Habsburg court of Archdeutius Margaret of Austria. Margaret isn't technically a queen, but rules the low countries as a region for her 13 year old nephew. So they were like putting her in charge and shit

because ants should rule the world. I mean, I would really argue for that, right? We know shit. We know shit, but we're not directly involved. We're not afraid to be like eat fast, right? Don't choke. Right, exactly. We step away. Don't don't eat fast. Don't choke. Is that what you said? I said eat fast. Eat your hot dog fast, but don't choke.

Yes. That's right. I'm mom and dad wouldn't do that. No way. You'd never get to get not hot dog eating contest if you asked your parents. Right., they take slow down. Okay. The low countries are made up of the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and a part of Northern France. Like, can we please go there? It's the cultural trend setter for all the other royal courts. Like, this is a place to be. And all the European nobility wanted to send their children there to learn to be well-mannered, members of royal courts. And because also the other children there were like future spouses of the royals. They made connections with actual royals. Like it was like a finishing school for like royal children.

So Anne goes there, she gets rave reviews from Arch Duchess Auntie Margaret. She writes to Anne's father and says, quote, I find her so bright and pleasant for her young age that I am more beholden to you for sending her to me than you are to me. Oh. Like, she was like, this chick's fucking awesome. Five stars.

Five stars. The historian, Eric, I summarizes other people's reactions to Anne and this time saying she was seen as quote, intelligence self-possessed wide awake. Unquote, which is like, that's, I get it. You know, you see some people day to day and you're like, wait the fuck up. You're like a zombie, but not Anne. Yeah. Anne was right in there.

That's right. A year later, Anne's French is so good, she learns French there that she gets a position in the court of Mary Tudor, who marries Louis XII of France. Mary is King Henry VIII's sister, and the time of this wedding Mary is 18 and Louis is 52. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay.

Problematic. Louis dies the same month and arrives in France. So Mary goes back to England and Anne becomes a maid of honor to Louis daughter, who's 15-year-old queen Claude. So here's a quick thing. Mades of honor and ladies in waiting are the Queen's protectors and companions, the ones that like dress her and all this shit. You know, we have all seen those shows. They help the Queen get dressed. They spend their time sewing, playing instruments, playing cards, praying, and reading religious texts together. So they're almost like her girl gang, you know. Yeah, they're her glam squad, but it's, can you imagine if in this day and age you had

like three girls that helped you get dressed? It's like, there's your black sweatpants. Here's your black v-necks shirt. Oh my god. And you look so good in that. Let's pray and then we'll play a little majeure. Let's do it. Yeah. And the only difference between the maids of honor and ladies in waiting is that maids of honor are unmarried and ladies in waiting are married. So it's got to be cool to have like some new real come in. She's like, your age, you guys get to hang out and have some fun. Also there in the French court, which has a reputation for wild parties,

lots of debauchery and lots of sex, and so this reputation kind of starts that maybe Anne learned a lot of that there. But in reality, Queen Claude isn't actually involved in any of this, and she and Anne lead a very sheltered existence. For one thing, Claude is extremely religious. She's not going with these awesome French orgies, you know? And for another, she's constantly pregnant. She has seven children in eight years.

So she's not going downstairs at one in the morning for the thick and caviar because she can't even eat raw fish and fish eggs, you know. She's like, I'll pass on pretty much everything because you keep making me have children. Right. And so ambulance like, well, this is my girl. Like, I'm not, I won't do it either. So that's like a rumor that starts about her. Regardless, popular lore about ambulance says that she returns to England with some kind of sexual repertoire that's unknown to the Tudor Court, but this is almost certainly not true about her. So she immediately gets reputation. They've always loved to gossip about the royals. The humans love a caste system. They love a pecking order and then they love to hate the people at the top. Right. Okay. What Anne does probably learn about in France at the time is not sex, but is about

the Reformation. In 1517, while 16-year-old Anne is living in France, Martin Luther sets off a firestorm in Europe with his 95 Theses, Theses, which attack the Catholic church, your friend, your favorite of the Catholic church, and introduces Protestantism. Protestantism. You know, Protestantism. Yeah, Protestantism, though Anne will still consider herself a Catholic, she begins to believe that the church needs reforming. So she's a fucking normal average teenager. That's just like questioning her background, questioning her religion. Yeah. You know, the good stuff.

Martin Luther was very popular in his day. Yeah. I thought you were about to knock wood. You like moved during the end over here, and I was like, what? What got in wood? Let's hope that Martin Luther turned to. Also, I don't know why I just said that. I don't know anything about who was there.

I thought you did it, but I believe you, because you were like Catholic, or you were raised Catholic. So I was like, she knows more about this than I do. Here's the thing. I think I was safe to say that only because his religion was the thing that broke up Catholicism and actually like began to compete with it. So I must be right in some conceptual way,

but that's really where I go wrong every time. As I always believe that to you. It's been almost eight years of this shit. And are we at almost 400 episodes? Oh, I think so. I think they're coming around the bend. So you must be right sometimes. I mean, Alejandra, your assignment

is to go through and find every time I was right. She's like, that another that quick eight. It's been eight times. It's basically you. Every time you think you're right, you've been corrected. So that was easy. Okay. Anne is called back to England in 1521 when she's about 20 years old and she causes an immediate

store in the Toodr court. Let me really quickly do some fucking Toodr history. King Henry the eighth is only the second king in the Toodr dynasty. Henry's father, King Henry the seventh won the crown at the end of the, say it with me, War of the Roses. War of the Roses. at the end of the, say it with me, War of the Roses. War of the Roses. Which was a 30 year civil war for control of the throne. And that's the only time I'm gonna mention Henry VII. So from here on out, when I say Henry, I mean Henry VIII. Okay.

So before the War of the Roses, there was the Hundred Years War with France, Jesus, so much war. So much war. Mm-hmm. So it's been a rocky century and a half for England. Henry is the spare, not the heir, aka the one, Red Heavy. Harry.

Harry. Fritz Harry. So he was the spare, he wasn't supposed to be king, but his older brother Arthur, who was supposed to be king, dies at the age of 15, just five months after his marriage to 16 year old-old Catherine of Eragon. This sounds like fucking game of thrones shit right now, right? It is, I think that's kind of what they based it on, right?

That makes sense. Catherine's parents are Spain's King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, and those are the same two people who brought you Christopher Columbus and the Spanish inquisition. That's right. History. Sick with me now.

Here's just a daughter of history. I played Queen Isabella in our eighth grade play about Christopher Columbus, and I got to sing a number called Money, Money, Money. And it was like, oh, the classic 1500s money money. All these people always came to me asking for money so they could go all around the world. So I sang, I had this whole song about, the, oh, these dudes keep coming and asking me for money. All these people always came to me asking for money so they could go all around the world. So I sing, I had this whole song about the, all these dudes keep coming and asking me for money.

And then I got to wear like a clean Isabella outfit. It was awesome. Is there a video footage of that somewhere out there of Karen playing 84? Probably not. Probably not a photo. Can we get a picture for the Instagram account? If there were, yeah, I mean, that would be amazing. Some, so here's what I remember about that night, because no one in our family would have taken a picture unless like my sister brought her disc camera, which I don't think she did.

My next her neighbor, Andy Winnington, came to this show and he was in the band at the Petaluma Junior High. So this was St. Vincent's, the Catholic grammar school, and our band played first. And they were so bad that Andy was laughing out loud in the audience. And then he gave me shit about how bad our band was for the rest of the year.

He just kept laughing about it. He thought it was the funniest thing in the world. Because it truly was like, like, really bad. Like really bad. Yeah, that's me playing shallow in sixth grade. Just see, just do it and see what happened. Yeah, you talented children. Yeah. So the match between Catherine of Eragon and Arsler is a very powerful match for the tutor dynasty. So they're like, yay,

awesome. Right. And Henry's father, when's Arthur dies, doesn't want that to slip away. So Henry's father and Queen Isabella are just like, let's just take Catherine, who's fucking husband just died, and marry her to the spare who's now going to be the king, Henry, who's now 10 years old, you know, the ripe old age of 10. Really? She gets to marry a kid in fourth grade.

Yeah, 16-year-old. She's like, I just want to take the fucking Volkswagen rabbit out for drives and you're making me marry a 10-year-old, like what? Well, I bet they were used to it though. That stuff happened all the time. Absolutely. So he's now supposed to be king.

They want them to get married to do this. They need a dispensation from your friend, the Pope. A dispensation is an official permission to do something that otherwise would be forbidden under your friend, Catholic law. So I mean, I just don't want to be this related to the Catholic church. I feel okay, your acquaintance. You know, I'm raised in it, but I have more of a Schneider-Conner stance with it. Okay. Okay. Your frenemy. Exactly. Okay.

Henry, of course, is not interested in the marriage. And when he turns 14 as future king, he's able to reject the match. And so Catherine is in limbo for the next three years until Henry's father dies in 1509, and now finally 17-year-old Henry becomes king. Okay. So he's like, of age at this point. So he has a change of heart. Decides he will marry Catherine,

who's now 23, so we've got 17 and 23. Problematic, a little, but you know. Not back then. Not back then. They get married and they have special permission from the Pope. So by the time Anne comes on the scene in 1522, 13 years of past, Catherine has given birth to one boy who unfortunately dies shortly after he's

born. She has a series of stillbirths and mid-scarages and gives birth to one girl who survives. And this is Mary who will eventually become known as Bloody Mary because of her passionate quest to return England to Catholicism and the hundreds of Protestants she burns at the fucking stake. Jesus, yeah, so she's not chill. She's like super anti-Martin Luther. Right, but that's decades in the future and Bloody Mary is about five years old when Anne gets to court. So Anne is 21, Catherine, the wife of Henry is about 38. Henry is 32.

The king is becoming increasingly agitated about not yet having a male heir, which he feels he needs in order to solidify the tutor dynasty with a third generation. Like that's the most important, we all know. That's the most important thing in their lives, you know what I mean? Right. So Anne has this older sister named Mary, and she's super fun.

She's already made of honor to Queen Catherine, and the same year Anne comes back from France, Mary becomes King Henry's mistress. So unlike Anne's room and relationship, Mary's extramarital affair with the king is confirmed. So there's all these like, these stories about Anne, but they're not true. But Mary is like, for sure, for sure, the mistress. But Queen Catherine, who has been raised a princess, and is a professional royal, basically,

she's a turn of blind eye to her husband's filan, filandering. Filandropy? Filandropy? No, she's all about the philanthropy. The filandering is the problem, but she can all about the philanthropy. The flandering is the problem, but she can't care about it. You know what I mean? Right. It's not. It can't show it. No. Right. You have to let it happen. And she's

given an air, so she can't really, or mail air, so she can't really make any demands herself for a thing. So there's a third bollum kid in the tutor court, and that's Ann and Mary's brother, George. And Ann and George are said to have a very close relationship. The two love to banter together. They have a lot of inside jokes. People at court find them a bit annoying when they're together. So they're that fun, brother, and sister.

When we were kids, my parents divorced, we all had to go to family counseling. And my brother and I just started making up these inside jokes because we weren't doing well. And so we like, that's how we bonded. And the therapist fucking hated us because my brother and I, and to this day, we have a secret handshake that we made up in family therapy to annoy the therapist. Nice.

Someone cycle analyze that, please. And we still do that. We do the secret hands shake whenever we see each other. So they're that kind of brother and sister, you know. So Anne's debut at court is in Pageant, a kind of skit with music and dancing, that royals and members of court would perform. This particular pageant is about the virtues of good ladies and gentlemen and each player is cast as a particular virtue and plays perseverance while her sister Mary plays kindness

and these are elaborate productions with multi-story sets and beautiful costumes. Hey, you love costumes. According to historian Eric Ives and and the other women where quote, oh hey, it is here. Thanks, Ali. White sat in each with her character or reason picked out 24 times in yellow satin. And the headdresses were of cows of Venetian gold set off by Milan bouquets." Wow. So that's what they wore. So they had these things of like, here she is. Look at how fucking eligible this chick is.

Blah blah blah. A pageant, like a beauty pageant, but with a little story around it. Okay. And there's a huge disagreement about what Ann Bolin looked like, and this is mainly due to the fact that most accounts of her were either written by people who wanted to be in favor with her daughter later, Elizabeth I, or else by political opponents of Ann, or Elizabeth, who fucking hated her. So it's hard to know exactly what she looked like. So some accounts describing Ann as a great beauty, while others say she had three arms, a protruding tooth,

and a large growth coming out of her neck. They're also very few surviving portraits of her, and the ones we have might not even be of her. So, most historians agree that Anne is basically just fine looking, has dark hair, but what makes her stand out in court is her wit, her style, her charisma, and her intelligence. And quickly becomes extremely popular at court and becomes a maid of honor to none other than Queen

Catherine. If she became popular in court, I bet those descriptions of her being, you know, quote unquote, unattractive are the thing that's gossip because that's part of it. Right. And maybe she was just like, you know, normal looking. It's just like average, fine, whatever. She's not to be a great beauty because she's smart as fuck. And that's how it, like that's, you know, that'll keep the marriage going. Sure.

Until they kill you. So in those earlier years, in the Tutor Court Anne has a few potential suitors, one attempt to arrange marriage, and then she and a man named Henry Percy tried to arrange their own marriage, and these efforts are thwarted by a man named Cardinal Thomas Woolsey, who is the Lord High Chancellor, who is essentially King Henry's business and administrative guy. So he's the behind-the-scenes power broker in the tutor family. He's a political rival of the Berlin family, and so he's been working to arrange a different marriage for the student Henry Percy that Anne had fallen for.

So, the student sorts the potential love match. So, like, her life could have been completely different. She could have picked out her own fucking husband. She could have moved on with her life, but no. This cardinal Thomas Woolsey is a dick. So in 1526, Henry has lost interest in Anne's sister Mary, unfortunately, and Mary's now married, and so Henry, the fucking king,

turns his attention to now 25 year old Anne, Berlin, and here's where it all goes to shit. Henry has already stopped going to Queen Catherine's bedroom. and Berlin, and here's where it all goes to shit. Hennie has already stopped going to Queen Catherine's bedroom. He's already pondering an annulment or a divorce because if you're supposed failure to produce a male heir. But when he first starts pursuing Anne, it's because he wants her to be his mistress,

not his wife. And this changes over the course of a year, and we can chart the change through Henry's 16 surviving love letters to Anne. Wow. So those like exist. Unfortunately, none of her responses exist, but we do know from Henry's letters

that she didn't always respond. I think she was playing this like, not a game. Maybe she wasn't even interested, but whatever it is, it fucking worked because he like slowly went from being like, I want you to be my mistress and she's like, fuck you, no thanks, ha ha. And to him going, let's get married.

Mm-hmm. Like, she did something. I don't wanna say right, because that's like the end game being marriage isn't, it's not who gets a shit, but like, that's, if that was her point, it worked. Well, back then, that's all they gave you should about. It's not, we can't be like, it's today,

it's the same as today. It was at 1,500, so it was like a completely different world. But I almost do get like a feeling and just from this stuff that like, maybe she didn't want to be the king's wife or the queen, I guess you would call it. If she wasn't responding to his letters, she didn't wanna be his mistress, which guess you would call it. If she wasn't responding to his letters, she didn't want to be his mistress,

which someone think would maybe lead to being the wife. She wanted to marry some other dude, and they wouldn't let her. It seems like she wasn't that interest, like she wasn't pursuing it. Right, and she didn't have to, because Wim didn't really have a choice back then. So it was just kind of like, if the king picks you, you're basically expect him in your chambers or whatever, right? didn't really have a choice back then. So it was just kind of like, if the king picks you,

basically expect him in your chambers or whatever, right? Which then would actually, psychologically, it would make sense that if she is going like, oh my god, I'm so not into this, then he's like, I must have you. So the reason she essentially, she doesn't want to be the mistress, even if the king, is that her sister Mary does get married after her affair with the king, but not particularly advantageously because she had had an affair with the king. So like she didn't marry up as high as she could have because the selling her reputation and and doesn't want the same thing to happen to her. So she stays away from a court at her family's home in Heaver, Castle, and this is where Henry sends most of the love letters as well as a however romantic as this, a dead deer which he had hunted for Anne. Oh, which actually like at the time it's like deer meat, great. Yeah, that's probably a very not a threat, which is what it kind of appears to be.

It's not on its face. See, it's all different. You know, back then it was like the most romantic thing you could do. Kill a deer for a girl. Kill a royal deer. We don't know exactly what happens, but after about a year of us back and forth,

it becomes clear from Henry's later letters that the conversation moves towards marriage. And this is something that Anne is like, okay, like we can talk about that, but by the summer of 1527, King Henry is showering her with gifts, including rings, bracelets, broaches, diamonds, rubies, silver book bindings, velvet book bindings, among many other things like dead deer. And dead deer. So King Henry now about 37 years old, endless cardinal Woolsey, that fucking guy, who said nope to her marriage, to go to the Pope and ask for permission to annul his marriage to Queen Catherine, which is like, you can't do that in the Catholic church, right?

Divorced, like, a no-no? Well, annulment means that there was no grounds like it was never, like, you can't do that in the Catholic church, right? Divorced, like, uh, no, no. Well, a moment means that there was no grounds like it was never, like, not solidified. Anyway, yeah. There's a couple things that qualify it for being an old. Uh-huh. But that, there's like a certain rules, church rules of, like, you have to qualify for it to be an old because that,

the other thing is divorce, and I have no idea whether or not divorce was legal back then. So Woolsey has a hard time getting that permission. The problem is that Henry's main argument for seeking in the annulment is the fact that Catherine, his wife, had been married to his brother, and so he claims that her failure to produce a male heir demonstrates the illegitimacy of the marriage in God's eyes, but the Pope had already granted the official permission saying Henry could marry Catherine. He says, if he grants it, it says that he's admitting it'd been wrong to allow the Nenari in the first place

and he doesn't want egg on his frock. So he's like, no. Also, Catherine does come from an extremely powerful royal family, as you know, because you played her mom in a play. That's right. Isabella, Queen Isabella. And her own nephew is the Holy Roman Emperor of all people.

And this is arguably the Pope's most important political ally. So it's all a feckin politics. Don't pretend God has involved everyone like what a bunch of bullshit. So ultimately this causes the downfall of none other than Cardinal Woolsey because he can't get it to happen. They're like, well, it's your fucking fault. Fuck you. So in 1529, having been unable to secure the annulment, Woolsey is for a stripped of his title of Lord Chancellor and is then arrested for treason. He dies on his way to trial. What a bummer. And this is all fine with Ambalin, of course, because she didn't fucking like

Wolsey to begin with. But going back to her time in France, she's also a true believer in reforming the church, and she shows King Henry of reformer texts, which point out that the Bible never mentions a Pope and says that kings are actually highest authority next to God. So she's like, let me show you what I think. She went to the OG text and was like, hey, guess what? They don't even acknowledge you in this book. So that's a bad ass move.

Bullshit. I call bullshit on everything. Like the world. She's just calling bullshit on the government and how it works. She's such a calling bullshit on the government and how it works. She's just pretty rad. The text she shows them are incredibly controversial, even heretical, but they make an impression on the king and they also happen to chart a path that would make Anne queen. But most historians agree that Anne was a true reformer and wasn't only serving her own ambitions. So she actually was

really interested in the stuff. Henry finds a new fixer, upper, a man named Thomas Cramwell. His name is so familiar. He doesn't have the same title that Wills he did, but he winds up having a similar role, and he is the person who ultimately gets King Henry the annulment, the not by getting permission from Rome, in 1532, Cromwell convinces Parliament to come up with a list of abuses in the Catholic Church, and to pronounce King Henry the leader of the Church of England, and this means Henry can get the annulment and finally Mary Ann. They're married in a secret ceremony. At the end of 1532, the marriage is made public in 1533. And in June of that year, Ann is crowned queen. Catherine's title is changed to Dowager Princess,

and she moves to several different palaces before her death three years later. Like what a bummer, just discarded. I actually think I might take on the title of Dowager Princess. I wish you would. I think that really suits me in my middle age. The way I look at things with a veil. A veil and then I don't know maybe just start hunching over. I think I always thought it like there's a thing called a Dowager's hump

which is like some sort of what do they test you for in school where they make you bend over. Oh, spine, to foreign school or the makeup and over. Spine, dockless, spines. Scoliosis. Scoliosis. Thank you, scoliosis. Thank you. Okay, so Anne is about 32 years old when she's married and crowned and she quickly becomes pregnant,

which is like the whole fucking point. She gives birth to a healthy baby girl, Elizabeth, the future queen of England. This is a big disappointment, of course, because it's a girl and had been sure it was a boy, doctors and the tooth sails had been sure it was a boy. The birth announcement had already been written as a boy and they had to be edited to change the word prints

to princess, like that's how fucking sure they were. In anticipation of a boy, a celebratory jousting match had been arranged. This has to be called off. Like they were fucking sure, finally it was a boy. But also, why does it have to be called off? They can't have a girl jousting. Just some boys only.

Because it's not the same kind of celebration. It's so phallic. The jousting. You know. Still, Elizabeth, the baby, is given a lavish christening and Henry and Ann believe there is still time to have a boy. You gotta have the big sister, right? England's break from the Catholic church is ongoing and and continues to be a reformer. She's a fucking rebel.

She keeps an English version of the Bible in her room for anyone to read since many have only ever read it in Latin, which means they don't totally understand what's going on, meaning the Pope and all these, the churches in charge of like the definition and what you think, right? And so it's technically prohibited to have an English version of the Bible, since the Church of England hasn't caught up with its own laws or its own version of what will become Protestantism yet. And advocates on behalf of people who have been imprisoned for possessing English versions of the Bible. So she's before her time, for sure.

And's true passion for reform is also where the first seeds of her demise come from. So her former ally, this Thomas Crowrabwell, starts to become an adversary. After England's break from the Catholic Church, there's disagreement on where all the wealth from England's monasteries should go and argues that it should go to the people into charitable causes, like a normal fucking empathetic human being. But Crabwell argues that it should come back to the king

and be distributed among none other than his close friends. Like, oh, that's going to be it for you. So Anne's relationship with her husband, Henry also becomes rocky fairly quickly. He'd been chasing her for about seven fucking years trying to get up and not. And now that he had finally gotten what he wanted, of course, he's not quite sure why he wanted it so badly. Anne's wit and her outspokenness and her charisma, the things that initially drew Henry to her, are no longer as charming to him anymore. Now that he expects her to not beat herself anymore, now that she's a wife, she challenges him in a way that Catherine didn't, he begins to turn his attention towards someone new,

a woman named Jane Seymour, who was one of Anne's maids of honor. So he's just like plucking him up. Over the course of 1535 and early 1536, and now about 35, there has three miscarriages. And she finds herself in a very similar position to Catherine of Eragon. This time though, King Henry can't say that the marriage was in ballot, so he can't just get another annulment, right? That would be putting his own foot in his mouth. So he assigns Thomas Cromwell to gather evidence against Anne. So what Thomas Cromwell finds is this. On one occasion, Anne, who like all queens was expected to engage in some degree of slightly flirty banter with the court, people at parties or whatever, made a

remark that went too far. She said to a courtier named Henry Norris, quote, "'You look for dead men's shoes for if it ought came to the king but good, you would look to have me. How is that? I was like British accent. Unquote. It was really good. Yeah, really good. What she meant was quote, I think you have a crush on me and if the king died, you would

be asking me out. Oh wow, just like hot. But this is technically treason because no one is supposed to talk about the king dying. So the remark to Henry Norris is literally the only charge against Ann that historians believe actually happened. So every fucking thing else that they said she did to kill her,

that's the, her saying that one thing is the only thing that actually like stands the test of time. So Cromwell arrests a court of musicians who after being tortured admit to having an affair with Anne on May 2nd 1536, Anne is arrested for treason and for having affairs with five men, including her own brother, George Bowlin. So they're like, you fuck these dudes and you fucked your brother. Like, it's like almost an added level of humiliation. It seems like that's just insane. Yeah. The only evidence that Cromwell can produce that she had enough hair with her brother

is that on one occasion, George visited Anne for a long time. That was his proof. Historians mainly agree that the Norris conversation did probably happen, but the rest of the charges are completely made up. So on the day of her arrest, 35-year-old Anne is brought to the Tower of London to the same royal apartment she stayed in before her coronation. So she's just fucking back there. And that had been just three years earlier. So like, that's how long she was queen for us just three years. Yeah. About two weeks later, she and her brother

are tried separately, but the result of the trial is a foregone conclusion. The other men, the musicians, have already been found guilty. There's a jury of 27 men, but all of them know that the king wants a very specific outcome for this trial. So both Anne and her brother are sent ultimately sentenced to death. Yeah. There's some disagreement among historians about why King Henry took the unprecedented step of executing his wife instead of just finding a way to divorce her and maybe send her to a

nunnery. Like it's pretty extreme, especially since his last wife, he just kind of threw it out away to like get out of it, right? Mm-hmm. Something Thomas Cromwell influenced the decision since he and Anne were at odds politically and she was outspoken about her beliefs. So another thing, you know, fucking staunch women are too much for these dudes to handle. And she didn't give him an air, right? That's the big, that's the real thing, is he wants that air? Essentially, yeah, yeah. But he only gave her three years, you know? Right, so it's not like he gave her 10 years

and it didn't happen. It almost sounds like he got bored of her. Right, more than anything. Others feel that Henry simply did it to save face to be able to marry Jane Seymour and also to have a son, like you said. The other wife that Henry would eventually be head Catherine Howard admitted

to adultery, but Anne never did. Like, there's no real evidence that she had any kind of affair. So there's all these rumors about her. She has a bad reputation in history, but there's no evidence at all that this was true. So Thomas Cromwell assigns four ladies and waiting to be with Anne in the days leading to her execution. So she's the fucking hangout and sit around in these apartments while she's about to be with Anne and the days leading to her execution. So she's just a fucking hangout and sit around in these apartments, well, she's about to be fucking executed.

Yeah, like what a bummer. And the ladies in waiting are not her closest confidants, which is done on purpose, you know. Chromo wants them to spy on her, but instead they start to feel sorry for Anne in her final days and goes back and forth between grief and shock. Sometimes she even has laughing fits because she's just like, this is absurd. Yeah. And the days

leading up to her execution, she gives her final confession to the Archbishop of the Church of England. She confesses to jealousy, but nothing else. And this is why people see this as solid evidence that Anne did not commit adultery. She's already been condemned to die and she, like everyone else at this time, believes in hell. So she would have confessed at this point that she had had an affair with, you know, the church because otherwise she didn't think she would have committed herself to eternal damnation by lying.

So it's pretty certain that she didn't lie about it. Right. to eternal damnation by lying. So it's pretty certain that she didn't lie about it. Right. The four men, including Anne's brother, are all executed two days before she is. Their executions are held on tower green outside of the castle walls for all to see. Anne can't see the execution from our apartments,

but since those executions are public, she can probably hear the crowd's reaction. Oh, to those innocent men and her own brothers hanging. And it's like a little preview of what she's going to get through. Like it's suddenly real. Yeah, I can't imagine. The four men are killed the traditional way, which is with an axe, which I guess doesn't

get the job done right away. You have an axe, you have to swing it a few times. No. I know. So Anne's execution date is set from May 19th, 1536. Her lays in waiting, dress her in a dark gray silk gown and an ear mine wrap. What's that?

I think it's Herman. Herman. And it's a kind of mink. OK. Herman wrap. I think. No, that is And it's a kind of mink. Okay. Irman, wrap. No, that is more than I know about it. You know, if you made it up.

She's walked to a platform that's been built specifically for the occasion near a part of the castle called the White Tower. And it's been built in an area that's meant to be private because the king is like giving her these last charitable flecken moments on earth. Yeah, so good of him. Yeah, people have found a way into the tower grounds, and when she's brought to the platform,

there are about 2,000 spectators. She's- This used to be like a fucking Saturday out, is like, let's go watch people get killed. Yes, for real. And also, I bet you, because she was, you know, all that gossip's going around about her. It's all that stuff of like, you know,

Protestants versus Catholicism. She's bad in this way. She's, you know, people are spreading rumors. So then by the time they go down there to see her get beheaded, it's like, yeah, you deserve it. Hey, so, so can Henry the eighth to his credit, I guess, he planned the whole entire event himself. I think this shows that maybe he was like,

I know, this isn't right, and maybe I feel a little bad about it. How do you figure? Well, listen, he is sent for a particularly skilled swordsman from France to do the beheading, which is a big deal. Okay. Yeah. So a beheading by a sword is much faster and less painful than the one by an axe, which sometimes required multiple chops. So he did that, he put it in a private area, and also the sword has been hidden in some hay so she won't see it as she's being let up.

And the executioner goes barefoot so she won't know when he's coming. So those are the kindnesses he offers her. Okay, it's not enough though. You know, ultimately it's really like breaking up with someone and then being like, but I bought you a Snickers. Like it's like, well, but way worse, way worse.

So Anne's ladies in waiting help her gather her hair into a linen cap and she kneels face in the crowd and she makes her final remarks. She praises the king. She asks that they pray for her. And once again, she does not confess. She kneels and the barefoot swordsman sneaks up behind her, quickly be heading her.

Because her execution by sword is so swift, some accounts say that her mouth continues moving for a few moments after her head is cut off. But Anne's ladies in waiting, quickly cover her head with a hankerchief. King Henry, as we all know, will go on to have four more wives. Jane Seymour will die, but does produce a male heir. The King divorces Anne of Cleaves,

the heads Catherine Howard, and Catherine Parr outlives him. After the death of King Henry and the death of his son Edward, and some succession drama. That's like a whole another fucking story. It is Anne's daughter Elizabeth who becomes the queen of England. Mm-hmm. Anne solidifies England's position as a Protestant nation and shrining a lot of the reforms her mother was so passionate about. She rules for almost 50 years in what will later become known as England's Golden Age. On her finger, she wears an elaborate ring encrusted with diamonds and rubies, and it has a secret compartment

that flips open like a locket, and inside there are two portraits. One is of herself, and the other, most historians agree, is of her mother. And that is the story of the life and death of Ann Bolin, who probably was a little ambitious, but what the fuck is wrong with that? Wow. That was like a full on history lesson. I know, look at me. Look at you and your interests.

I know. You imagine us having done that story and the story you did last week together? I'm going to turn on three fucking hours. Just like, and one more thing. And another thing. And another thing. Wow, great.

I mean, look, they just knocked that one down. Yeah, that's right. Getting our work done. No, we gotta go have a Monday night. Yeah, I'm gonna go walk cookie, I'm gonna fucking, go touch grass, go be outside. Yeah. That fresh crisp fall air that's out now.

Ooh, it's almost spooky Halloween. I was just laughing with Bradford about this. It's like, they started putting out Halloween stuff after Fourth of July. Like, so early, but I'm loving it. It's people are so into it and so excited. And like, you can tell everyone had a bad summer and they're like, can we get on with this nonsense?

Can we put on long sleeve shirts and start putting pumpkins with faces everywhere, please? Did you see the thing where they like put peanut butter on a pumpkin in the shape of a jack-a-lantern and then put it outside and let the rabbits and the squirrels eat along the peanut butter and that turns into a jack-a-lantern because they just eat the peanut butter. Oh my god. And so they made it. I mean it's everybody loves spooky season. It's just the truth. Sure. Well thank you for listening. I bet you if you're listening to this podcast you love it more than most people.

Definitely. And that's why you're still listening to us. I bet you, if you're listening to this podcast, you love it more than most people. Definitely. And that's why you're still listening to us. We appreciate you. We do. Thanks for being here. Well, we have fun with you. You know, and because of that, we want to tell you to say sexy. And don't get murdered. KABEI! Elvis, do you want a cookie?

Want a cookie? Aaaaah! This has been an exactly right production. Our Senior Producer is Alejandra Cack, our Managing Producer's Hanna Kyle Crichton. Our Editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Squilachi. Our researchers are Marin McClashon and Ali Elkin. Email your hometowns to my favorite murder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my favorite murder and Twitter at my fave murder.

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