My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - DUBBED: 221 - Symbolic Violins

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

This week, on My Favorite Murder DUBBED, listener discretion is NOT advised! Karen and Georgia cover the rescue of Baby Jessica and the deaths of Sid Vicious and Nancy Spungen.221 - Symbolic Violins was originally released on May 7, 2020.For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's hard to imagine losing a loved one, a wife, a husband, a child. For many, it's their biggest fear. Amarissa Jones, host of The Vanished. A podcast that tells the stories of often overlooked and unsolved missing persons' cases, in an effort to uncover the truth. Listen to The Vanished on Amazon Music or River You Get Your Podcasts. Warning, the following episode deals with mature and disturbing themes, including drug use, backyard disasters, and bad parenting. But listener discretion is not advised, because we dubbed it all out.

Now you can listen to this podcast in front of children in the car with your mother-in-law or at a public pool. Please note, we are not responsible for the quality or content of the mentioned in this episode. Enjoy Mother Flip! Vlog! Welcome to the whole time my favorite murder with my cat and and I'm splat Exactly at the same time exactly on exactly at the same time media. That's right. That's Karen Kilgaro. That's Georgia Heartstark. Hi. How are you? Coming at you from our individual homes? Mm-hmm. As per.

Mm-hmm. We're not protesting anything. We're staying home. You know why? Because it's just normal. It's what you're supposed to do when you don't want to get it virus and give it to other people. The highly deadly virus, no one knows how it works.

Stay home. Yeah. And when you scream into the law enforcement faces, it turns out it doesn't help at all. It hinders, some would say strong start. We've done it again. Here we go. I mean, let's just make this a flaming political podcast at this point. How do we talk about anything else? Oh, man. Well, it's kind of being shoved down our thoughts all the time. That's why we do this podcast so you can escape. This is the escape hatch from that reality into the one we've decided to create.

And you should absolutely be wary of the fact that the escape hatch of reality to make you feel better is a murder podcast. Yes. please know. Please read the post it note that we stuck on the escape hatch before we went through it first. And it says, be where all you who enter you. Try to think it's too. There's two women talking.

It's a murder podcast. What's podcast? It's one big God forbid. So get ready. It's a one podcast. What's podcast? It's one big God forbid. So get ready. It's one big God forbid. How are you doing with your stability and house and living in it? Well, I mean, that all that's fine. I did. I was, I think yesterday was a breaking point for a lot of people. I was getting lots of texts like, hey, I'm freaking out. So tonight, actually, technically,

although in our reality, it's two nights away, it's a full moon. And I think that has an effect on people, especially when you're indoors and you need to be indoors. Yeah. So just, I don't know. I would say keep conscious of details like that that might be affecting you.

What does it do? Turned in or wear wool? Well, every time there's a full moon, like crime in more or less times, crime spikes, like crazy, people get a little nuts. It's like kind of like mercury in retrograde. I think so. Only the moon has much more of a true direct scientific, you know, we're made of water. The moon affects the tides in our periods and all those things.

Push, pull, all that. It's all happening. Extra-pushed, extra-pulled, this week. Stay aware. So yeah, I think there was a little bit of that kind of, I had a couple, you know, we had a couple things we had to get done on the phone that felt like way bigger deals than they normally do. I almost cried in a business meeting, Zoom, which was so, did you noticed last week when I almost heard a crying? Oh, so embarrassed. I was just like, get it together. No. Yeah. Okay. When it was just the four of us together. No. Yeah. Okay. Was that when it was just the four of us though? Yeah. Yeah. Or cousin. Yeah.

Of ladies. And I did, I thought, okay. I did notice it, but I thought it was something else. So that I was just kind of like, Oh, I thought I was getting my period. I know. I remember I said, are you okay? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you were like, yeah, yeah.

And then I was like, oh, that's, I hope she didn't think that was me being like, yeah, yeah. And then I was like, oh, I hope she didn't think that was me being me. Oh, no. I was really doing it. But that's the weird part. And this part is driving me crazy. It's very difficult. You and I have almost, I feel sometimes a like a psychic connection where I don't have

to say a lot of stuff to you. I really don't feel the need to because I know that you're already there. I wish you wouldn't. I mean, I do. I know I do a lot, but... And so it's more difficult and it's very frustrating to me to have to podcast with you when there's like say a delay or a thing. I don't get that the high of the connection. No. I mean, it's almost like we need to start recording our phone calls, because those are so funny and fun and like very fun. But then, yeah, then it would ruin that

and it wouldn't make any sense anymore. I know. I know. It's just an odd, like that part of the adjustment. Those are the things I'm missing and feeling is like, when people go like, is a human connection, but there really is that thing where it makes me feel like I am when I feel I am connected to other people. Yeah, it's very important. It turns out. Yeah, it is. I

almost cried the other night thinking of like hugging the first time I'm going to hug someone besides Vince and you know, or a cat, it's going to be so emotional. I feel like, you know, it's just going to feel like I feel like, you know, it's just gonna feel like, I feel like for the first, it's gonna be like, when World War II ended for the first friendly couple of weeks, everyone's just gonna be, you know, basking in these experiences that they haven't been able to do in three years, hopefully, just thinking.

We would like to formally apologize for joking that the pandemic would last for three years. We had no idea we could see the future. I mean, yeah, really, when it actually ends up because people won't stop going out anyway. Right. Um, and it ends up lasting for a traffic ticket or a rest. Anyway, the resting black people and giving white people masks. Tickets.

You know, exactly. The total disparity of justice in this country anyway. Any who, anyhow, we promised you this was an escape and we're escaping you right to the front page of every newspaper that you've had to read this whole time. That's right. The perfect escape. I will say this.

Here is how I am escaping. And I don't know why I found it so soothing. Scandinavian police procedures, much like their furniture, are so beautiful. And there's one, there's a couple I've been watching that I really binged. One is called the Truth Will Out. And it's really well done, really well made. I think that one is on Netflix. Can't remember. Everything is either on Netflix or Amazon. That one is great and the characters are amazing, so it turns into like it's a cold case team that's kind of a rag tag. Yeah, love a rag tag group of anything. And but so well written,

like so realistically wonderfully well written. And then this one I just started is called Trapped and it's Icelandic. And the main guy is this huge, I mean, let's be honest, he's a bear. He's like a bear. He's huge and hairy and has a big beard and he's really gruff and he is small town Iceland trying to solve these murders. And you're like, maybe I need to move to this town. For real! I'm going there the second

quarantine has lifted and where it's like come on. It's really cool. And they also it's the thing we're in the middle of a full-on foreign procedural. Everyone starts speaking English when they have to talk to other people They'll just be speaking English come with no accent where you're just like man, that's cool You're like I'm sorry, but thank you. Yes, I really appreciate it. Could never do it. I mean, I try to start taking Icelandic language lessons, but I would need the full five years.

That's right. Oh, God, it's fine. By the time I get there, I'm saying, yeah, when the quarantine is lifted, and then she gets to move there. What else do you want to keep singing a title of a show that I drunkenly wrote down to recommend and laughing out loud.

It's like, I have like Atlanta's Missing and Murdered on HBO and even in the green river, like, and then just in the middle of it is a show called flipping 101 on HDTV. I'm so obsessed with it. It's so good. And it's just people redoing houses. It's this guy. He got it losing their sneakers. It's this guy, Tarek. He had a, he got a divorce from his wife who they had a flipping show. And so now he kind of gets this, like, short end of this dick show and having to deal with people who have never flipped houses before. Well, she is going off to like marry some dude in Orange County and live in this beautiful house. And I just rub. Pale for this guy.

So much. Wait, is that this, is that written into the show? Or it's just like, do you, or you just know that if you follow a shoot TV like we do, you then you know. Okay. Like you know who he just, he seems so. I feel so bad for him. Yeah. Well, you don't want to be in a famous couple and then break up.

No. And then let's get the short end. Well, I mean, how do you, yeah, I guess you're right. If you're, if you're're like immediately marry a hot person. She married a hot person, she got pregnant, she's so beautiful, they've moved in this huge lovely house and they're like remodeling friends' houses together. And he just isn't like Alhambra remodeling

like the saddest house. He's got one of those really bad like goatee. Yeah. He's grown out of a divorce goatee that's not working. Oh my God, how many divorce goatees are out there? We've seen him where it's just like, I get it, you're changing it up. Try to chase out something. You got it.

Good luck. Please note, the term divorce goate has been copyrighted by my favorite murder, Inc. And cannot be used without prewritten approval. I get it. My divorce goate to is 50 pounds. So guess what? No judgment. Every way you're thinking.

Your divorce go to is different. It's all different. There's no judging. Come for yourself. However you can, whether it's horrible facial hair or non-stop mac and cheese. Do your thing. Yeah.

I mean, here's something that isn't really anything I recommend per se because it might not be interesting to anybody else, but sometimes at night, because I don't want to go anywhere and I don't want to introduce anything new into my household. So, I'll just make myself like a quesadier or something very basic with my call it basic culinary skills. But then I just read postmates. Like, I'll just see what restaurants are still opening my neighborhood. It's one of my favorite hobbies. It really is where I'm like, I would get this in this, and then I just like close it all.

I'll shut it. I'll shut it. I'll be scrolling postmates. I sometimes I open it and I'm like, ooh, what's new? Like, what's new in my neighborhood? Even though I'm not gonna. No. I know all the restaurants in my neighborhood.

I know most of them by heart, and it very scary and very, you can kind of, it's a real measuring stick postmates because, you know, a week after the quarantine was announced, a ton of restaurants just went off entirely. And then you're just like, oh, no, I hope those come back and, you know, getting so worried. Then there's all those restaurants that got super creative. I want us to send you a bunch of flower and bread and sugar. We care. Totally. And there's like a biscuit window near one of the places near my house where they just

like make different kinds of biscuit sandwiches. And it's just like, just like go up to the, yeah. Oh, they're just like my house moving into yours. Hello. So creative. Yeah. It's a great idea. Yeah, all the pantry items and hot luck.

I know. It's super cool. There's so many places. It's that thing too, where I'm kind of, sometimes I'm scrolling going, what if I made something? Yeah. It's like, you're not going to.

But then it's, or what if I got a full of Italian family dinner? Like, what if I got just wall-to-wall carbs in here and then I'm like, close the window? Oh man. Then it's almost, then it was doing like an order on Costco and he was like, I got this, I got that, I got, and then he said, I have, I got

Ravioli, lasagna and I was like, hold up. What? So instead of the lasagna pasta sheets, it's just Ravioli. So it's like double timing. It's double the pleasure, double the fun. Front back, front back. These are the time we layer. We're living in to remember, get it, eat, eat, eat. Ravioli, lasagna. Like I mean, how do you not, how do you not turn to pasta in days like this? How do you not go? That's the solution. All the rules are off here, which is fun and nice. And kind of teaching me like a better way, you know, like just don't eat all the bread, but you can have bread. But you can have bread.

Have really nice, nicely made bread. And really enjoy it. Don't like beat yourself up while you're eating it. Totally. I, what I'm doing is a small celebration for myself is using a very large cereal bowl. It's too big. It's too small.

Have you done that where you're just like, this is easily three bowls of cereal, but let's see what happens. No, I've eaten three bowls of cereal in a row, but I've never in my life thought to get a bigger bowl. It's cereal. Like that's somehow not allowed in my life. It shouldn't be normally, but now it is.

It is now. It is now. I love it. You know, this has taught me two things about myself. One is that I don't want to bake bread and I never want to bake bread. And I have no stuff in interest in baking bread, even though everyone's baking bread. How though that whole thing of starting your the wheat, their sourdough starter and yes, and it's alive.

And just like they call it a mother. Yeah, out of fear, and you have to put flour everywhere. It's like, and it tells you to make a mess. You touch it so much, touch flour, you put it on this, you add more flour, keep rolling flour, flour, just get your whole hand inside it. You make sure your hand whole hand inside it.

You make sure your hand gets all over it. That's right. All bread is 50% someone's palm school. Oh, God. Yeah. And now that you're filthy, and rather not be mine, I guess. And also that I have no interest in puzzles and I flopping. Tried, I got a puzzle of like my favorite photo of me

In vents were both taking swigs of beer on stage at the same time So it's just like I can't a PBR in both of our faces got it made as a puzzle Literally point everything out was like I don't want to do this now Can I just give you a tiny bit of puzzle guidance? Yes take or leave? I have no interest. Yes When we do calls that are not Zoom calls, that's all I'm doing, baby. That's the time. I need to, there's no, I should be into it.

But, but however, yeah. And help. Okay. You know what also it is sometimes, and you have to have this experience, maybe to really have it start feeling like it's paying off. But sometimes I just stare at the puzzle for a really long time, and then I'll just pick up a piece and put it in immediate.

Like, it feels like puzzle psychic ability, and that's what keeps me coming back from work. Because suddenly I think, I have this idea in my head, I'm good. Well, that is what's cool. Just cross my mind that you can get better at puzzles. It's not just like, you're always going to suck as bad as you suck at puzzles. It's like, your skills get better and better. Yeah, and it's almost like, can you face, this reminds me of, like, the, I can do puzzles

now because of, I think the fact that I'm middle aged and like, in a place in my life where I'm actively practicing, like, patients and things that I'm middle aged and like in a place in my life where I'm actively practicing like Patience and things that I have never been able to even approach before yeah, and it reminds me of like when I was in my late 20s on-speed at Like Buffalo Exchange Watching the girl that worked there go through someone's garbage bag filled with clothes and she would take something out, look at it and then fold it and she just very slowly where I was standing there going like, oh my god, if I did do that, like I was flipping out, like how are you doing this? How are you doing it so calmly and why do you like it? And this is awful.

It's like Zen almost where she's just like, this is like origami or something where it's just right. You have to make sense of it. Not on speed. Right. So that's everything. Speaking of, do you mean 20 years to realize that birthdays? Do you want to talk about the birthday?

Do you have, we can cut this out. Speaking of birth. I feel like everyone who's having a birthday and during this time, we now will understand what it's like for kids who have their birthdays during the summer. Which is why I have an idea to have a birthday blowout for everybody who has a quarantine birthday, one the quarantine end. That's a great everyone in the world will all just...

I mean, we'll see who I feel comfortable giving my address to, but for the most part, we'll have all the good idea. All the birthdays where we're going to get stuck indoors and we'll just have a kind of a... Someone just pulled into my driveway. Oh, no, they're only turning around. I pull out a rifle. I like the idea of like a party that might go all weekend long.

Oh, yeah. You can stay here. You can get a party that might go all weekend long. Oh yeah. You can stay here. You can get a room at the hotel. Yeah. But like, let's just do it. Bring your dog and like blow it out. Let's hang out. Yeah.

Can people bring their dogs? Build a dog park in the back. Yeah. You know, I get like disappointed in a visceral level when I find out there's not any pets at the party. I'm going to you know Yeah, that means there's no escape hatch for you. That's right. That's right. Yep. All right I know what else do you have oh? Can I know I just asked you a question what?

No, go ahead. I have any videos. I just oh Are you gonna do a podcast? No, no. Oh yeah, I can, go ahead. Do it. Are you go first? Oh, that's what I was gonna, I was gonna recommend and I know I've recommended it before, but my favorite, one of my favorite podcasters

who is a, I think a clinical psychologist and a Buddhist teacher, Tara Brock. She's doing a series now and it's called Sheltering and Love and it's all about dealing with the feelings of being in quarantine and the frustrations that come out of it and the and the feelings that come up and kind of how to hang and it's very she's really good. Yeah. Like I think she started it, you know, for three months, but I guess seven weeks ago. you know, four, three months, but I guess seven weeks ago. She started it when this happened. Yeah.

Who knows? But there's now like five or six episodes of it. And it's just really helpful. Yeah. Like I get up in the morning and as I'm doing, you know, the dishes are doing kind of things around the house, I stick it in and it's just a really nice level set. Okay.

So if anyone's looking for, if anyone feels a little spinny or like my thoughts are taking over, or I think this, or I think that or whatever, you're targeting me right now. Yeah. Pointing in your face with my word. It's just, I find it so helpful. Yeah, she's incredible. She's just one of the best. Speaking of, I finally started listening to unlocking us with Brunei Brown. And I, you know, I started. Speaking of, I finally started listening to Unlocking Us with Brunei Brown. And I, you know, I started and was like,

I know everything she says and met. And then, of course, I listened to the first few seconds of an episode and first into tears, which doesn't happen to me. What's she talking about? It was, let me see, hold on one second. Oh, it was, okay, so it was the episode Dr. Mark Brackett, who does studies on motions and teaches us

like how to feel and he said something that happened in his childhood and how hard it was as a kid to like understand what's going on. Feelings started crying. And then there's another episode that I really love called, that's just her talking. It's called, it's just Brunei on anxiety, calm, and over under functioning. And it's just a 30 minute episode and you just like learn so much and everything makes sense.

She started calling like your family that you were born into. She calls it your first family. And that just calmed me in so many ways where it's like that's not, that's not your chosen family. That is the first family that you were born into. And then you get a move on from that if you want. And that's just like I really stuck with me. And also you're the family that you are born into your family or your first family or how would everyone call it is also I always compared my family to every family on TV. And because I did that, did you think I was going to say every other family around? Yeah. Oh yeah, no. I was always doing it to TV. No, you, that's wow. Yeah. So then I would be like, I remember one time in like, you know, fourth grade when I was like trying to confront my mom about that fact she had a job and she wasn't waiting at home when I got home from school to give me cookies. Like who?

And she, like, like, you know, Mrs. Cunningham or whatever, like any TV mom. And she just, like, she was like, are you kidding me? Like, it was like, she was, it was like this thing of like, what are you talking about? Like, I have to work to pay for your stuff. Yeah.

You know, and I'm like, that's not real. But I just, because that's the idea, you start getting these ideas in your head as a kid. And if no one, if no one interrupts and goes, yeah, that's not realistic. It's pretty much everybody's mom has to, you know, either work or the job of being at home is work. Yeah.

No one's sitting there with their hair done and a bunch of lipstick on going, honey, I mean, you can't speak. Yeah, it's very rare, very rare. Yeah, TV, yeah knowing sitting there with their hair done and a bunch of lipstick on going honey Yeah, it's very rare very rare. Yeah, TV. Yeah, that's how I did I did that with 902.0 and relationships until I was like 20 Where I was like this is how relationships are supposed to be so dramatic and red flag tumultuous and then I was like Oh, you're just modeling after Brendan and Dylan and Brenda. Brenda? Yeah. Yeah. She and Adorety, Brenda the Pod.

She and Adorety! Love you, girl. Hi, badass. She and Adorety, my sister, we saw her at the Beverly Center. The first time my sister came to visit me, I know I told you the story, but the first time my sister came to visit me when I moved to Los Angeles, we went to the Beverly Center and we were walking around and she and Adorety walked by and my sister came to visit me when I moved to Los Angeles, we went to the Beverly Center, and we were walking around, and she had an adorati walked by,

and my sister's the only one who saw her. I didn't even see her. And she, and my sister looked over at her, and she gave my sister a huge smile. Like I think my sister had the light here in the headlights like holy spankers, because it was prime 90210 era. And she gave my sister this huge, lovely smile,

like super nice. And then she, my sister's huge lovely smile, like, super nice. And then she my sister's like, oh my god, she had an end of it. She just smiled at me. I'm like, well, shark week. That's what sisters do. Sisters. Actually, that's the person I've been texting the most during this time and like, connecting with the most, which is really nice. My sister? No, mine. Although I did have it. I did talk to your sister on text. Did you? She texts me and I, yeah, we text a little bit. My dad and your, and no wait, your dad and my husband have texts a little bit just to check in. That's the love of a lifetime.

Definitely. I'm not surprised that my dad texts Vince because he asked me how Vince's, I would say, every other phone call where I'm just like, I mean, this is sexism A. Yeah. And then B, what the, like, just ask him yourself if you're so interested. Vince is a fabulous lumberjack at this point. That beard. It's like the third person in our quarantine. It is majestic. I've asked him if I could put flowers in it and take a photo. It's like, I want to see a picture. Okay. I'll send it to you. I'll post it. Or if I could put flowers in it and take a photo. It's like I want to see a picture

Okay, I'll send it to you. I'll post it or I'll take a flower in it. It's yeah, pretty special. Is it long? It's robust. Oh Yeah, it's like going wide. Yeah, and there's like all it's like gray and there's red hair and there's whatever I don't need to talk about my husband's beard. Oh Gray and there's red hair and there's whatever. I don't need to talk about my husband's beard. Oh speaking of sounds like you like him. Just speaking of my dad. So apparently I don't know if you've heard about this, but Britney Spears has a home gym and

she made a video on Instagram a couple days ago telling everybody that she left some candles burning in her home gym, and well, basically, she burned her home gym. What? Yes. I didn't hear that. Yeah. And so people have been tweeting me the video

and going, what would Jim think of this? Oh, yeah. And going, like, we need to know Jim's response. So I actually called my dad. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I called him. And I'm like, Dad, you're

gonna have to hang in there. Now, here's the problem. My dad lost one of his hearing aids somewhere during quarantine. So he's still waiting for it to be mailed to him. So it takes a while to explain. So go where I'm like, Dad, do you remember the 90s? It took a while with it. He's like, all right, okay. And then it gets mad at you because he's like, yeah, I know what you're talking about. We're like, I've been explaining it to you. Yeah. And it takes so long that he thinks I just want him to acknowledge that she exists.

Right. And he changes the subject for him like, no, there's a story. That's the hot hour. So basically, dad, she left two candles burning and basically burned down her home gym. And I can't, this isn't something I can respond to explain to people on Twitter, so I figured I would save it till now, because he went, and had this loud Santa Claus laugh,

I can't even do it currently. Sounds like joyous. It sounds joyous. He loved it. He thought it was hilarious. Where it's like, now that he's retired, the job is so far in the past. He can, I think, be more lighthearted about he thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard.

That seems really hard to do. I think these days, candles are made in such a way where it's unless you put it under a curtain, it's hard to light Chicago on fire with them. And we're gonna get a bunch of messages telling me that's not a living trail. And I totally agree and I know. I mean, but I think there's in some ways,

well, people are at least looking toward that a little bit more these days as candle makers, but clearly there's a large chunk of that story that's missing on Rick's part. It's like, and like, so how many days did they burn? Like, what are you talking about? That two candles brought down your home gym. Yeah, and who works out to candlelight?

Is that another question I have? I feel like that doesn't it. You're on the elliptical, like sipping wine get the animals and some rich marks laying in the background. Cool. Home gym. A romantic workout. Hey, home gym. That's your dad's podcast.

Hey, you talked about it. Oh, and then it basically, so I told, I explained to him that people were asking what he thought about that on Twitter. And then he just went, I got fans. Jim were big fans. I got fans. Jim. Jim, we're big fans. Home Jim. Home Jim.

That's him during the quarantine. Is that it? Okay, sorry. Oh, no, that was the best story I wish you had lived with. That was incredible. I wish I wish it had been different. I know. Exactly right. Media. That's our podcast network that we started.

We have of course the new podcast, our bananas. I said no gifts with Bridger Weinergar, which was in Oprah. Oprah magazine. Guys, congratulations to Bridger. Oprah picked you, Bridger. It is, it's Hickdew Bridger. It's like it's first Hickdew. A month or two of podcasting and it's in Oprah already. Yes.

So, very cool. We just found out before pressing record that if you go to iTunes and search exactly right, all the podcasts that are on our network come up and then some, so you can check out what's going on. Oh, I have a really quick corrections corner. Yeah. and some, so you can check out what's going on. Oh, I have a really quick corrections corner. Yeah, I said, in the mini-sode this week, I pronounced a city wrong, shocking me. Really?

Yeah, New Hampshire town is pronounced Nashua, not Nashaw County or Nashua. Oh, okay. Nashua. Nashua. Sorry about that, guys. New Hampshire? Yes. Oh, it is. Nashua. Sorry about that guys. No hampshoor. Yes. It is.

I mean, we need a corrections corner for next week. So I might as well. We really do. This is called creating content. It's how you do it. Yeah. We took a class. We took a class in influencing.

We took a class in influencing. An amazing class at Santa Monica City College. Now. okay. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller,

we will be your resident not-so-expert experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong. What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to,

I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Do you know what story I'm gonna do this week? Tell me. I'm gonna do the rescue of baby Jessica McClure. Starbucks. Yeah! Going back to the 80s!

Oh! Good one. How have we not done that, great one? Well, it's really out of, it's, it's,'s well underline. I tell a size. It's out of the normal true crime milieu, I would say. But I was, you know, we were talking about where I was like, we can just do what we would like to talk about. We don't have to be so, we don't have to adhere. And then once I got into it, as always happens, once you start reading articles, there is an unbelievable article by a writer named Lisa Belkin that was written in 1995 for The New York Times, and it's

called Death on the CNN Curve. And I recommend everybody read this article. It is an unbelievable expose about this time in the late 80s. So I guess CNN started in 1980. It didn't really start making money until 1985. So before that, it was just this kind of, it was almost like C-SPAN. It was 24 hour news that no one watched. It was really boring and dull. And it was just for, I don't even know, I don't know, it was for it. But then, you know, mid to late 80s, it started gaining a little bit of traction.

And this baby Jessica's story is one of the things that started kicking off the 24 hour news cycle. Disasters. People are just so interested in disasters. Right. But this was, yeah, I mean, if anyone relates, it's this team. But I'm not shaming anyone. Right here.

Yeah, but it's just fascinating because before this time, and it's so difficult for a lot of people who weren't around for this, and it's odd to even think about now, like, there's this time in the late 70s, early 80s, where nothing was branded. There wasn't stuff, brands of things sticking up all over. You didn't have, there was not brand awareness. It would just be like, if there was a calendar on the wall, it would just be a willow tree. You know what I mean?

It was just, you would, if people just had a brown couch, a brown plaid couch and shag carpeting. Yeah. You buy your couch from Sears or Jaycee Benny, or it's just the couch that was there when you moved into the house. Like it was, there was this real brown, low-key aspect.

A fly. Nothing was sexy. Nothing was being advertised toward any demographic. It was all very, like it was, it was like rich people. So it was like out of our eye-shot. Yeah. Yeah. Or it was, yeah.

Or it was aspirational like the band-to-sale commercial. Yeah. It was like the lady diving into the pool. You'll never be here by Bandit Soleil. Right. I love that commercial anyway. So this is kind of about the time where the 24 hour news cycle began to take off.

And then I think that's another reason where I was kind of went, oh, this would be good to talk about now. Because now we are in this world where we're so used to it and we're so used to just getting constant information and kind of being left to the mercy of the 24-hour news cycle whether or not we're choosing to participate in. It's a barrage. Yeah. Well, you know, but I was going to say this because at the end of the episode before the live show that we posted two weeks ago,

I did say something about the news is trying to scare you. And there was a couple reporters that tweeted at me like they were upset about it, which it was like what I meant was the people who decide what goes on the news, because I was absolutely wrong to say that in terms of how many journalists are out there, you know, risking it all to tell important stories

and get the facts. And also, especially these days, there's so many feel good stories and stories about people caring about each other and connecting with each other. So I did misspeak and I kind of used the language of the people who want to attack the media and I should have thought that through better. So I do apologize. But I more meant the people who decide what we ingest as news, which is not, it goes way above all the people who are trying to report the news and keep us all in. It's the shareholders that decide what's allowed.

It's the six billionaires that run it up, the lit up vote, baby. From. Yeah. Okay. Excuse me. I should scare it all this. babe. From? Yeah. Okay, excuse me, I just scared all this. Yes, we obviously, we obviously,

we obviously, we wouldn't have a podcast if it weren't for these incredible journalists who do so much insane, wonderful work that we then, you know, regurgitate, condense and regurgitate and we are so grateful for that. And in my wildest dreams, I would be a journalist. I mean, truly. Yeah.

Yeah, true crime, journalists, true crime writers. Like, yes, we would not be here without them. So my apologies to anyone that was offended. Yeah. And that's why we up top before our stories give credits, because we know it's so important. It's entirely. So this story I'm about to tell you, I was going to tell you

the version that I kind of experienced. And then I read Lisa Belkin's article, which was kind of about the full experience, not just what happened directly after the rescue, but then the effect that had and the effect the fame had and the effect the fact that the world could see this, the world could see what happened in Midland, Texas, this tiny little town, like I mean, it's, it, and it at a time where it hadn't really happened that much before. Yeah. Wow. So this was one of the first times that it happened, it's really fascinating.

Okay. So anyway, so it is October 14th, 1987. I'm 17. My eyebrows are flourishing in a way. It looks like two huge black cattle pillars have crawled onto my forehead and made a home for myself. 17-year-old Karen, what I wouldn't give, it was like, hang out with just like carpool somewhere with her. Just have a chat. And she would have done it if you had some California coolers in the backseat. She would have done it if you had some California coolers in the back seat. She would be down to clown.

Big hoop earrings, California coolers, 1987. Amazing. So, but now we're in Midland, Texas. We're not in Pedaloma, California, we're in Midland, Texas. And it's the morning of October 14th, 1987. And 18 year old, Reba, her nickname is Sissy McClure. She's at her sister, Jamie Jamie's house at 3309 Tanner Drive in Midland. And Jamie has a daycare that she runs out of her home. And so Sissy's

there with like five kids, one of whom is her 18-month-old daughter Jessica. So they're out, all the kids are out in the backyard and Sissy's out there with them playing. And then the phone rings so she runs inside to grab it. And while she's inside on the phone, she hears all the kids scream. So she runs back outside and all the kids are standing around a pipe that is three inches, coming three inches up out of the ground and only eight inches in diameter. And her 18 month old daughter has fallen down this pipe. It's a mother's worst nightmare. And she's standing in it and freaking out,

of course. She can hear her daughter. I believe she can hear her daughter crying. Oh, I will also say that there's a TV movie that was made in I believe 1990, starring Pahadi Duke and Bob Bridges. It's called Everybody's Baby, The Jessica McClure Story. So in that, the mother hears her crying, but I don't know if that's factual. That's just what happened in the TV movie. Okay. How deep?

So I just, we don't know how deep it is yet. We'll find out. The well? Yeah. We, we, you movie. Okay. How deep? So I just, we don't know how deep it is yet. We'll find out. The well? Yeah. We, we, you will. Okay. Event.

Got it. Okay. So she, of course, runs back in, calls the police. They're there in three minutes. And basically, they, they come to find out that this pipe is basically leading down to an abandoned well. Oh, Blake. So it's very deep, just so you know.

Yeah. So the first police officer on the scene is 32 year old Bobby Joe Hall. BJ is his nickname. Bobby Joe. But Bobby Joe, everybody got a nickname in Midland. Bobby Joe, BJ Hall comes to the front door, Sissy gets there.

She is, of course, out of her mind. She just keeps saying over and over, I can't let my baby die. I gotta get her out. So, Officer Hall assured Sissy that they're gonna save Jessica. He tries to look down this shaft to see her, but it's too dark. He can't see anything.

He calls out her name a few times. There's no response at first. Then he can hear faint crying. So they know she's alive. Oh my God. Paramedics show up at the same time as the police. So the paramedics are back there with them. They start pumping oxygen down into the opening. Okay. As more first responders arrive on the scene, someone comes up with an idea to lower a microphone that's attached to a flashlight down into the shaft so they can hear her. So they're calling out to her, they wait to hear her respond, then she, they hear her, you know, make sounds

back and they can figure out from the length of the microphone that she's 22 feet down this well. Mother of pearl. Yeah, way the funnel cake, the underground. Yeah. So after that, a little while after that, they figure out a way to lower a video camera down into the well, so they can see how she's down there, because they don't understand. And essentially, they lower it down,

they get this kind of side view. And she has fallen down, so the diameter is eight inches of this pipe. How big is that? What's that like? Eight inches is less than a foot. So it's like if 12 inches is a foot. Uh huh, got it like that.

Yeah. Take a deep breath and repeat after me. I like myself. I love myself. I forgive myself. It's like, it's basically like it's tiny. Like it's a big huge pipe but tiny is no there's no wriggle room for her at all. Not at all. And in fact what they realize when the video goes down there is that she's stuck with her right leg

up and pinned to the wall and her left leg down. So she's trying to do the splits a little bit. Oh, baby. Yes. I know. So the Midland Fire and Police Departments, they work together. They come up with this plan.

And they're like, we have to dig a second shaft next to this well and then tunnel across and then get in access and get her out that way. So the city of Midland gets a backhoe over there. They tear down the neighbor's fences and this is a funny thing too. So it's a very, this neighborhood is very kind of like lower middle class like the houses, the houses all look like my old house. It's just like a basic two bedroom house, you know what I mean?

Like all these houses are little square little houses. They went up in the 70s and they're in they yeah. Yeah. And they're like with um five foot fences in the backyard. So if you stood in your backyard you could see into your neighbors backyard like, Hey, what's up? It's not like eight big to eight foot fences is like that. So but they're like they have to come in and like knock people's fences down get this backhoe in there. They start to dig down two or three feet and then they hit basically bedrock, like really hard rock. They realize that they're gonna need something with more power, it's not a backhoe, isn't gonna do it.

So they bring it, luckily they're in Midland, Texas, which was like an oil town big time. So there's all kinds of like, you know, drilling for oil type of places. You know, everyone knows what we mean. I'm really California. You know, they're everywhere in all the drills. Like all they have, yeah, all this heavy equipment is around town because of that. Like Texans know what we're talking about. They know and they relate and, hey, what's up Texas? You've always supported us.

Thank you. Okay. So they bring in what's called a rat hole rig, which they usually use to drill holes to sink telephone poles. Okay. So even using having machinery, it takes hours. And basically, as the hours pass,

this backyard is starting to fill up with firemen, policemen, paramedics, volunteers, people who are hearing, there's a little girl trapped, and people saying, okay, well, I have this rig, and I used to work at this, like all these people that know drilling, and they're showing up to help. So the whole backyard is starting to fill up with people. And one of those people is 36-year- old police detective Andy Glasscock. And he's actually going to spend the next 72 hours essentially laying on his belly on the ground

next to this opening, calling down Jessica and getting her to respond to him to make sure that she's still alive. He's like the he's like the hostage negotiator, but but in a pause, but in a sweet way. Yes. He's the baby, baby hostage. And the hostage taker is the well, the baby down the well whisperer. So he's a dad himself. So he's saying that like he's calling down, making her say stuff back to him. And so he's, he said after a while, he could tell what her mood was.

So she would switch between angry huffs or Pained wimpers or cooling And they could she would answer 80% of the time but in the 20% when she wouldn't respond of course Everyone would get super nervous. Yeah, then they would say oh, maybe she's sleeping or she's just really exhausted and then Andy would go or she's just really exhausted and then Andy would go, yell down the pipe, what does a kitten go? How does a kitten go? And then they'd hear, meow.

Oh my god. Right. That's saddest. Oh. And at one point, kids can't not respond to whatever go. It's just. They're trained.

By 18 months, all American children are trained to tell you what every animal, what every sound every animal makes. At one point, they're, they pause in the drilling and it's really quiet and then they can all, because the microphones down there, they can all hear her singing, whinny the poo, whinny the poo to herself. She's comforting herself. She's comforting herself and I'm editorializing here But I imagine all those big strong Texan men lost their shit Absolutely and in a very strong manly Texan way cried or brush just single tear And then then got mad and demanded that someone bring them coffee with awesome stuff

Okay, so now October 14th, 1987 is actually a very big news day. So a US flag tanker is hit by a missile in Kuwait. First lady Nancy Reagan is actually hospitalized for breast cancer and the Dow Jones drops more than 100 points that day, but none of those stories capture America's attention, the way baby Jessica being stuck in the well does. And that's mainly due to the fact that CNN is covering it non-stop. I said this already a little bit beforehand, but it had been running for seven years at that point, but this

is only the second time they or any station covered a story live around the clock, the first one was a year earlier when the Space Shuttle Challenger exploded. And this story was just as big, but in this way of that it still had an inkling of hope. So CNN has reporters live on the scene almost immediately and they keep their cameras rolling on this backyard for this rescue mission nonstop the entire time. And everyone is glued to the TV. Millions and millions and millions of Americans.

Did a seven year old Georgia was sweaty watching, for sure. 17 year old Karen was drinking in a field, but her heart was with the family. No, I saw it all. So other news networks pick up the story and this backyard becomes, it's a media frenzy. So when as reporters show up,

neighbors are letting news cameraman, like because first of all, the backyard fills up entirely that Jamie's backyard fills up. Then the neighbors are letting news cameraman into their backyards that are surrounding the backyard and they're sitting on ladders Neighbors are letting news camera men into their backyards that are surrounding the stock yard. And they're sitting on ladders in neighbors' backyards with their cameras so they can get the shot

above everything else. And then that becomes kind of the surrounding outline. And so, and those spots are like coveted new spots because those are all the people that have the shot, you know what I mean? And it's like ringing it. So all these guys are sitting up and then they need somebody to go down

and like hold the ladder. It was all like jostling for space. It was like a really big deal. Nidlin's local TV station KMID TV. They start getting calls from all around the world for people asking for updates on Jessica's rescue mission. All they think whole. So the places that didn't have CNN or couldn't do it, people are just calling in, like hearing

about it. Okay, so it takes this, the rescue team, six hours to dig the first parallel shaft. Now it's nighttime is getting dark. The whole world is on the edge of their seats. And everyone is just scared to death. Will they get to her in the name? Yeah, yeah. And do we know who coined baby Jessica or it just kind of became the name of,

I think it just became it. I don't know. I didn't find anything that said that, but it was me. Um, I take credit. I took her first sip of her first virus and James and then turned her friend and said, I'm calling her baby. She's not baby.

Suddenly I have a text and accent for no reason. And also it's not really text. Okay, so here's what I love. The Midland Police Chief and the Midland Fire Chief. Both know they don't have enough experience for a rescue that's this, this important and this, you know, complicated. Yeah, complicated. So they reach out to a man named David Lilly, who's a special investigator with the US Mind Safety and Health Administration in New Mexico. He's originally from West Virginia and he grew up in a family of minors.

So he has extensive experience and knowledge in underground recovery. Wow. So they fly David Lilly out to Midland and basically interview him on the spot and immediately realize he knows his stuff, he's the guy and now David Lilly is in charge of this rescue operation.

So by the time he gets there, this parallel shaft has been dug 29 feet deep down. It's 30 inches wide. And they're actually starting to dig a horizontal tunnel across to where they know Jessica is stuck. But then David realizes there's a problem with the tunnel's trajectory because if they, they've, they've made it so they're aiming right for where she is. But that would mean they would have to break the wall in on her. Right. And so he's like, no, no, no, we have to dig down even further and then, and then tunnel across and up.

So he reroutes them. So basically the tunnel will connect two feet below where Jessica is stuck. So he also notices the dig team is using weak drill bits which makes them have to stop and re-sharpen over and over. And it takes up way too much time. So he gets them drill bits made of tungsten carbide, and they drill for longer, so they don't have to stop or do anything.

And he would later explain his strategy saying, quote, our strategy was that we would drill a series of holes in a square, about 24 inches across and 18 inches down. And the holes would be no more than two inches apart. And then we would take a 45 pound jackhammer, also with a tungsten bit, and hold it there to knock out the rock. And we were going about an inch an hour. It was terribly hard rock,

and it was slow going because you had to lie on down on your stomach holding a 45 pound jackhammer in front of you. Only snickers. But I've never seen more dedicated people. That quotes from people, Mag. So the next day is October 15th and the team finally reaches the wall of the well. But the rock around the well is even harder.

So in order to drill through that, they have to use a high pressure water jet cutting, but finally they do break through. But the entry way they make is really small. There's a local roofing contractor named Ron Short, and he comes to volunteer to help because he was born without color bones. And so he can like basically fold in his shoulders, yep,

and basically fit into cramped spaces. Yes, so he's there. I mean, this is what the people of this spot into, in like Midland, but all around, people show up and they're just like, there's a, in this in Lisa Belkin's article, she says, there's a contortionist

that shows up from Dallas. It's like, what can I do? Oh my god. Like, people are just like, we want to. Yeah. We want to help. But they don't know how badly baby Jessica's hurt. Right.

And they know that moving her could potentially make it worse. So they finally decide that a Midland firefighter with paramedic training named Robert O'Donnell is should be the one that goes down into this shaft. So this is actually going to be a full quote from Lisa Belkens article, Death on the CNN curve. Quote, at noon on the third day, the driller stopped, the reporters clung to their ladders and everybody watched as O'Donnell with a mining light strapped to his head was lowered by a cable harness down the shaft. He was chosen because he was tall and thin, 6 feet, 145 pounds.

He didn't mention he was also claustrophobic. He lay down on his back and wriggled head first through the cross tunnel with his arms out in front of him. The air was wet and sticky and within moments he was bathed in sweat. It was like trying to slither through a tightly wrapped sleeping bag. He would tell reporters later. Oh, God. Can you imagine?

No! He inched to the end of the tunnel until he could look up at the shaft that held Jessica. Only the first few feet were lined with the pipe that protruded up into the yard. The rest was raw rock wall. One of Jessica's feet was dangling Only the first few feet were lined with the pipe that protruded up into the yard. The rest was raw rock wall. One of Jessica's feet was dangling down toward Robert, but the other was out of sight wedged

near her head. So she was almost in a split. And this is his quote, juicy, which is the parent's nickname for Jessica. juicy, I'm here to help you. I'm like, my cry. Sorry. He asked her to move her leg and she did, satisfied that she probably had no overwhelming spinal injuries. He started to tug on her foot, but she didn't budge.

She was wedged into tight and he did not have enough room to maneuver. He cursed, he prayed, he became resigned to the fact that he would have to leave so that the diggers could widen the tunnel. Oh my God. He promised her he would come back. Oh God. Okay, that poor little girl. So he has to, yeah. So he has to go back through that tunnel that was so awful to go through without her. Without her. He comes up, he's really upset. There's some people, there are doctors on the scene that are like, we think he's too upset to go back in, but he insisted that he was fine. They got like Vaseline and they made it a little wider. They got Vaseline and there was also just, you know,

it's really interesting. I found this infographic that showed how narrow this crazy tunnel was at top and how it widened out. And they put a balloon under her so that she wouldn't fall further down. Oh, ships. Yeah. Yeah. So like they came in, they put the balloon down there. And then basically he went in, you know, it was widened out a little bit and and they just basically put a little Vaseline, he tugged on her, he pulled her and he got her and he pulled her back through the tunnel. So at 10 PM on October 16, 1987 after 58 hours, two and a half days of being trapped. Eight shells with ya.

Eighteen month old Jessica is pulled free by Roboto Donnell and taken back across the tunnel to the parallel shaft where as so at taken back across the tunnel to the parallel shaft Where as so at the bottom of the shaft that that parallel shaft that they dug Paramedic Steve Forbes is waiting there. He has a backboard, which is that thing They put like when you're a car accident or whatever He has a little one for a little baby He has a bunch of gauze so he wraps her head. She's got big cut on her head and her arms and stuff wrong with her legs.

So he basically does real rudimentary kind of head wrap. He sticks her on this backboard and they get onto this plank and the two Forbes and baby Jessica are carried 29 feet up and out of the shaft. And when they get to the top and I swear to God, you all have to go and watch this, it's a 42nd clip on YouTube, and I was crying so hard.

I was like, this is more than just this video, but it's so beautiful. When they get to the top, it's 10 o'clock at night, so it's all this, you know, it's nighttime, but then it's all these lights, like clear camera lights that they put up. Yeah, and by this point, you've got the reporters on there, ladders, but it's like eight people deep.

It's mostly men, it's mostly these rescue workers and these volunteers. And when they come up out of this well, there is cheering and applause. Like you would, I mean, these are seasoned reporters. These are like paramedics and firemen that seen everything and people are going nuts. Oh my God.

Church bells across the town of Midland are ringing. And Jessica, even though she's covered in dirt, she's clearly dazed. Her mom is right there trying to get to her. She's alive. And at this point, all three TV networks, all three TV networks, because it's 1987, break into their regular programming

to announce that baby Jessica has been rescued. Dan, rather actually said, live from Midland, Texas, Jessica McCluor is up, she's alive, what a fighter. So good. Okay. So she's taken to the hospital, baby Jessica's taken to the hospital, to the hospital. Oh, and just in the video, just you know, there's a paramedic basically Steve Forbes. So Robert O'Donnell is the one who

got her out of the well, handed to Steve Forbes. Steve Forbes is the one who secured her and brought her up out of the shaft. And then Forbes handed Jessica to paramedic Bill McQueen and he's the one that you see walking her out very quickly out of that backyard until a waiting ambulance. She's rushed to hospital. She's in the hospital for about over a month, about 36 days. She's got a pretty bad wound on her forehead and because her foot was above her head, the whole time the loss of circulation, she actually got gangrene and she had to amp- they had to amp- to get one of her toes. Oh, no. Which, but other than that, she's okay, which is pretty amazing. Over the next few years, she has to have about six surgeries, but aside from a forehead scar and the toe she's she's totally fine. And her hospital bills are paid,

she, all the doctors that worked on her donated their time and then her remaining hospital bills are paid by anonymous donors. Wow. And the entire world begins to send gifts and toys and cakes and all this stuff to Midland, Texas for baby Jessica. She is totally inundated. President Reagan and the first lady called them a clueless, told them that they watched from Nancy's hospital room. She was supposed to go in for a biopsy and she said she wouldn't leave her hospital room

until the baby came up. That's the quote from Nancy Reagan. I spit on the ground of that name, but still. but still we're all human beings doing our best. Sure. So are we? Okay. I mean, are they what will we? Or they did sometimes, sometimes, um, their parades for the rescuers and when Jessica's fully recovered now to the hospital, the McClaurs guest on live with the Regis and Kathy. Yeah. I remember. They get to give their first hand a counter the story. Of course, baby Jessica is so charming and lively and

everyone is in love with her. And of course, in 1989, they make the ABC television movie Everybody's Baby, the Rescue of Jessica McCleur, starring Patty Duke and Bob Bridges. But of course, as with all things like this, with sudden and huge worldwide fame, there's a dark side. The state of Texas files and negligence claim against Jessica's aunt, Jamie Moore,

whose daycare center it was. What? There's a mine pipe in your forking yard. I know. But the city. But it's pretty much what they have to do when, and if something happens to a kid, they have to do it. And apparently the person at that department, where those claims are filed, was like those people have suffered enough. But Jamie Moore ended up

closing her that daycare permanently. I mean, of course. So then the file, the charges were dropped. But both the pressure of worldwide and small town fame eventually gets to Jessica's parents, Sissy and Chip McClaur. When they take $30,000 of the money that is given because people end up having to open like a trust account because people just keep giving money. So they take 30 grand and buy a three-bedroom house on the edge of town,

which is huge and way bigger than the house they already had. 30 grand, 30 grand. The town gossip is like they're spending all of Jessica's money. People start to go crazy because it's jealousy and all kinds of stuff. This is an amazing quote from Lisa Belkins article that it really warmed my heart. We're not really, you'll see. Quote, this is, we were over at Denny's one day, soon after it happened, when she came in, says Maria Petronella, who lives two doors down from the house with the well, and was out front with a garden hose on a recent June morning trying to resuscitate her baked, shriveled grass.

There was a wait and she looked at the guy and says, just like that, do you know who I am? I'm Jessica's mother. I said to her, if it wasn't for a whole lot of other people, you wouldn't be anybody's mother. Oh, it's swish. So this is the kind of friendly small town, you know, pressure and like the behavior change, the gravy,

status hierarchy, celebrity, financial change, the celebrity aspect, everything goes nuts. It seems like it never works out great. Well, if everything changes overnight, I mean, how can it work out great? It's just how you saw us at Denny's without we're out of our minds. Cutting in front of people left and right. I got to get moon over my hammy. And I got to get it before you.

That's what makes it delicious. So, Sissy and Chip McCleur end up getting a divorce in 1990. The pressure just gets to them. But worse than that, the fame and the pressure also affects the first responders who are there. So this is another big quote from Lisa Belkins article from New York Times. Quote, the attention heaped on the McClure's trickled down to the central players in the rescue. Andy Glasscock was seen in the Michael Jackson video Man in the Mirror. That's right. Remember? Yeah. It included flashes of major news events.

Forbes and O'Donnell each received a wall full of citations and plaques, and O'Donnell was asked to serve as a judge for the GI Joe's search for real American heroes and attend the White House Award ceremony for that program. Not only was he a guest, one Oprah Winfrey brought her show to Midland, but he also set next to her at the press conference beforehand. He was invited to speak at so many firefighter conventions around the country that he developed a slide presentation. Forbes, no Donald and their wives were flown to Los Angeles to appear on the television program third degree where a celebrity panel tries to guess what two seemingly unrelated

individuals have in common. The panelists knew immediately who they were. third degree where a celebrity panel tries to guess what two seemingly unrelated individuals have in common. The panelists knew immediately who they were. Wow. Yeah, that's a famous work. A four foot by six foot plaque was hung on the wall of the Midland Center, a bronze rendition of the Pulitzer Prize winning photo. Oh, so there was a there was a news photographer from an Odessa newspaper who was one of the people up on one of those Ladders and when the baby got brought up he snapped a photo that went on to win a Pulitzer. Oh, it's shit So like big stuff was happening for all these people around there

Okay, an area of view blocks away was renamed volunteer park at the actual site of the rescue An iron plate was welded over the pipe with the inscription for Jessica with love from all of us. In an emotional ceremony, the rescuers including O'Donnell planted a red-bud seedling surrounded by a ring of lavender chrysanthemum over the refilled parallel shaft. Sounds beautiful. Yeah. So then, of course, Hollywood comes calling. Yeah. So then of course Hollywood comes calling and there's multiple offers for TV for movies or TV movies. So the rescuers and the volunteers become divided into two warring factions. And they each accused the other of only caring about the money while claiming that they're the ones who care about the story being true. Or they did the most important job work and whatever.

Yeah. So essentially, it's that first wave, no one's experienced any of this before and everybody gets as I want to say. And on it. Yeah. Hi, on their own supply. Amen. So the one who seemed to suffer the most from this fame and then it's of it inevitable sudden

withdrawal was the fireman Robert O'Donnell who first pulled Jessica out of the well. When the phone stopped ringing, he became depressed and listless. He then became addicted to pain killers. Eventually his wife left him, he lost his job as a fireman. And then soon after the Oklahoma City bombing in April of 1995, clearly suffering from PTSD, he drove down a lone ranch road and shot himself in his truck. He left, he left a note that said, no help from nobody but family.

Oh, God. Just so tragic. And I didn't know anything about that part of the story until I read Lisa Belk on this article and please go read this article. It's mind blowing. She spent a lot of time with him before he died. She spent time in Midland. She tells the story from the inside of watching this town like go through this amazing beautiful miraculous event and then basically the fallout and how it affects people afterwards. It's really incredible.

PTSD is an ugly thing. Yeah, apparently when he was watching the rescuers go into the Oklahoma bomb site and he said to, I think by that time he was living with his mother. I mean, things were very dark for him. And he looked at his mother and said, those guys are gonna need help. Yeah. Like, just knowing and seeing, like,

oh, this is what happened to us on like an even bigger scale. Right, totally. But the upside and the kind of miraculous thing is, baby Jessica herself turned out great. So she goes on, she graduates from Greenwood High School in 2004, she gets a job working in a daycare center. And as she's working there, she, one of her coworkers,

introduces her to her brother, who becomes her husband. They get married in 2006. They have two kids, little boy in 2007 and a little girl in 2009. And then what's my favorite part of the story and so beautiful, people never stop donating to baby Jessica's trust fund. And she wasn't allowed to access it till her 25th birthday.

It had $800,000 in it. What are you touching? Iting me. Nope. Nope. People from all over the world gave baby Jessica money for years and years and years. Can you imagine? Can you stuffing imagine?

So, and also like, yeah, it's like basically, oh, my neighbor's waving high. Hi. That's the guy that told me I was beautiful. Oh, hi, it's basically, oh, my neighbor's waving high. That's the guy that told me I was beautiful. Oh, hi, we love you. I love him. Okay. So then other than a small scar on her forehead and of course, not having, she only has nine toes.

But other than that, Jessica doesn't remember falling. She doesn't remember right in the well. She doesn't remember being rescued. She doesn't remember right in the well. She doesn't remember being rescued. She doesn't feel traumatized by it. She feels really lucky. And she says that the one amazing lesson that she learned from that whole experience, she's told this to Time Magazine.

If you look hard enough, there are so many good people in the world. Mm. Right. And that is the story of the rescue of baby Jessica McClure. Karen. Now, can I just, here's a post script. Okay. And this is real. And I've told a bunch of people this. So because at first, I was like, I'm not going to tell this story on my podcast, because then someone's going to steal my idea. But I think I wrote this document.

I would say 2009. OK. And it was. This is something I wrote. This is something. OK. So this is this idea I got. I think it was like I was probably unemployed, kind of just,

you know, and I started thinking about the story because of how amazing it was and how big it was at the time. So I started, I wrote up a document because I wanted to write a sitcom called Oh Well about adult baby Jessica being a total monster. Okay, so here's the idea. And this was, I knew nothing about real baby Jessica. So real baby Jessica, if you hear this, this is fictionalized. I love that you're normal, cool, and you have eight hundred thousand dollars. Everything about it. But my idea was, oh, because I think I heard this, I heard like in people or time or whatever, yeah, that she had this huge trust fund. And in my mind, it was like, it's seven million dollars or whatever. So here's my document. It's a

calm called Oh Well. And it takes place in Midland, Texas. Baby Jessica is now grown up and lives in a mansion built over the well she fell into when she was 18 months old. A trust was set up that day that the public made donations into which has resulted in her living and behaving like a millionaire. She loves horses.

Everyone still calls her the baby. Her mansion is built over the well and she talks into it like a friend at night. She has a know it all butler, a scroungy family, the town worships her. She has flights of fancy from the trauma she suffered as a baby. So animals and creatures come to visit her

from time to time, but she met, first met, but she hallucinated them down in the well. Oh my God. She's treated like a holy relic in the town. People come from all over to see her. And she's constantly being asked to do talk shows and parades. And she's horribly jealous of any other child in peril on the news.

Oh my God. So let's get that made. This is going to be my next big project. It's called Oh Well. It is not based on fact But I love the idea of the of like someone like this that you're just gonna take it You're just gonna be a rescued baby and then be like now you're all my servants for the rest of your life I hate that other famous baby

How dare that baby be rescued. I'm on the rest rest of baby. No, but she's like 39. I love it. That's the best. That's the best. Great job. That was so awesome. I love that you did that. What a great idea.

Disaster story. Disaster story. I like the disaster story element of it, but it's a happy ending. Well, and there's this tragic element to it that I think it's that again, that kind of thing. No one talks about stuff like that. So it's like, we all know the baby Jessica story. And we all, like a lot of us read about like the trust fun words, like, that's kind of beautiful.

But the Robert O'Donnell's role that he played and then the way, like what a wonderful thing and how much it meant to him, obviously, but then the way the fame and the kind of like being in that spotlight and how it can affect you if you are you know of a certain makeup or you just like obviously No one in that town thought anything like that was gonna happen. No, and they weren't prepared for it and they didn't get Yeah, the attention needed. Ah, yeah, that's sad Are you guys telling me a story? I'm gonna tell you a story.

It's a little bit legendary, like yours. Yeah. This is the deaths of Sid and Nancy. No, do! How would we not done this? All the times we've done shows in New York and neither of us thought to do this? Oh my God. All the times have done shows in New York and neither of us thought to do this. It's crazy.

Me and my friend Laura Milligan, when we used to get drunk in 90s, we, I think it was with Laura. I think we used to say, say, say, like doing that. Say, say, say, say, say. I remember the movie came out and Sid and Nancy came out in 1986 and I remember I must

have seen it, you know, in the 90s at some point, being like, this is the most romantic story ever. And then now I'm studying it as an adult. I'm like, this is trash. It's so depressing. I remember hearing the quote where he was Sid Bischo said, like, sex is boring and stupid and I was like, oh no, am I perverted? I think it's great.

I think it's great and exciting. No, no, you're fine. You're not the problem here. I'm not on heroin. That's the, I think that's the key. Exactly. It finished the sentence. Sex is boring and stupid when you're on heroin.

Right. So I got information from a website called History Collection, People magazine, Mental Floss, Rolling Stone, a website called History Collection, People magazine, Mental Floss, Rolling Stone, a website, the website independent. And there's so there's two articles on the independent one is written by Joe Somerlade. And the other one I swear I looked so hard and could not find who wrote it, but it was from like 93.

So maybe they just didn't have it, but it might have been Joe Somerlade for all I know. A daily beast article, there's a documentary called Who Killed Nancy, and then also Wikipedia. Karen Ready? Yes. Okay, this is Sex Pistols. As you know, they were an English punk rock band. They formed in London in 1975, and they were responsible for initiating the punk movement

in the UK. It was already going on in New York, and the Sex Pistols were like the main thing going on in London. And the regard is one of the most influential bands in the history of punk and music, popular music. The group originally consisted of John Leiden, aka Johnny Rotten. He was singing Steve Jones' on guitar,

Paul Cook on drums, and Glenn Matlock was the bassist. But in early 1977, Glenn Matlock was kicked out of the band or he decided to leave because his mom hated how anti-crown, the band wasn't forced him to quit, which is really normal. And so he was in the name of all that's royal. Get out of that band. Out of there, you. And just really quick, can we say, if you haven't heard Jonesy's jukebox, it's one of out of that band. I would dare you. And just really quick, can we say if you haven't heard John's e-sue box?

It's one of the best radio shows. Steve Jones has this radio show that is has in driving in traffic in Los Angeles. Over the years, I've lived here saved my life. It's influential. It's so good. Amazing. So Glenn quit the band for mom and was replaced by Simon John Richie, aka Sid Vicious. Even though Sid had no idea how to play bass.

Okay, I really love that. I really love and respect the fact that he would get on stage and kind of not know how to do. No, it's great. It's so kind of rock. It is. It doesn't matter. Yeah. So, Simon John Richie, who I'm going to call Sid Vicious for now on because it's great. It's so kind of rock. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Yeah. So Simon John Richie, who I'm

going to call Sid Vicious from now on, because it's easier. It was born on May 10th, 19. Oh, that's, no, your birthday is the 11th. That's right. 1957 in England. And his father flakes out on his mom, her name is Ann. And his then so she remarries the stepfather. He six months after their marriage, he dies of cancer. How sad is that? Like you got the second chance and that happens. So Sidvicious's mom races him alone in East London. And by all accounts, Sid's mother Ann was not great. Very problematic. She was heavily involved in drugs as both a user and a trafficker and when Sid was a toddler His mom used him as a drug mule. She'd stuff his clothes with packages of hash and smuggle them from Spain to England So lady not a good start not cool. That's really not Marianne County him

My mom was right., your mom's amazing. She killed it. Sex pistol singer Johnny Rotten said that once he was hanging out at Sid's house on Sid's birthday when they were like friends as young teens and Sid's mom gave him said a bag of heroin as a birthday present. And I think even for punk rockers, Johnny Rotten was like, what the fuck? He sticks and then Sid was like, oh, she means well, she just knows that heroin relaxes me. So it's awful.

God, dish. Yeah. It's that's awful. It's so awful. So Sid had first met Johnny Rotten in 1973. There were both students at it, this technical college and their later teens. And they had been hanging out in this little burgeoning punk scene that was actually pretty small in London.

And it originated in this little clothing shop called Sex that was run by Vivian Westwood. Yeah. Did you know that? And there's an amazing documentary about Vivian Westwood. If you haven't seen it, it is. I have to watch it. I'll look up the title.

It's amazing. She's so, she just,'t seen it, it is, I have to watch it. I'll look up the title. It's amazing. She's so, she just, she did it in the face of everyone going, this is disgusting. And she would win these awards and everyone in the fashion industry would be mad because they all, they all wanted everything to look like those weird 90s plain suits. And she was up there.

Yeah, exactly. And she was like, how about a kilts and a tank top. Yeah, amazing. So truly amazing. I mean, the fact that they named their clothing store Sex just shows you like so cool. So it was Vivian Westwood along with Malcolm McLaren who becomes a Sex Pistols manager

and the clothing store specializing clothing that defied the look of the punk movement. So Johnny Rotten nicknames this kid Simon, his friend, nicknames him Sid Vicious because Johnny Rotten nicknames this kid Simon, his friend nicknames him Sid Vicious because Johnny Rotten had a hamster named Sid that he named after Sid Barrett, the founder of Pink Floyd. And then one day the hamster bit Sid and they yelled about him being vicious and so now his name is Sid Vicious. Legendary. Kind of an innocent, yeah, innocent beginnings. Right.

And actually, I didn't know that Sidvicious was originally a drummer, and he was the original drummer for Susie and the Banshees. Really? Yeah. So we actually could play an instrument. It just wasn't the bass. Even more punk. Yeah.

It turns out they're not interchangeable. So when the sex pistols needed a bass player, Johnny Rotten, like didn't care that he couldn't play, he brought in his friend Sid Vicious in February of 1977, and Sid Vicious never really learns to play, but he had been a big fan of the sex pistols. He'd been at every show, and he, I think what mattered more for them was that great punk rock style with the Spike Black hair, leather jacket. He wore a shirt that had a swastika on it as a, and he said it was like a political statement as a normalizing swastika, but you know,

it's England and like two decades past the bombing of your town. No, dude. No. No. So it doesn't matter what your intention. Right. It doesn't matter what your intention is. It matters with the impact. Exactly, as we've all learned. Right, so on their debut album and only album, never mind the Bullocks, here's the Sex Bistles. Civicious for the recording was in the hospital with hepatitis. So it was only on one track, one song, where he plays bass,

but even that track has to be dubbed over by Steve Jones. So despite the success of Never Mind the Bullocks, which is a great album, my I just, I'm just, I'm clocking you. No, I like you. I'm trying to be pumpkin mispronounce things. Mom. Honey, it's Bollocks. Bollocks. Despite the success of Nevermind, the Bollocks, the band never records another album, and they break up after two and a half years of being a band,

which is a fact that many people blame on Sid's new girlfriend, Nancy Spungin. Let's talk about Nancy. Sad. Sad. That's good. So Nancy Spungin is born in 1958 into an upper middle class Jewish family, which I didn't know, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. As a young girl, Nancy is super smart, but her mom describes her as a problem child.

She has a lot of issues. She was born with the embellical cord wrapped around her neck, which may have caused some injuries. She throws violent tantrums as a kid. She bullies her siblings. She threatens her babysitter with a pair of scissors. She even attacks a psychiatrist who is trying to treat her. So she's just really problematic.

She's diagnosed with schizophrenia and her teens, though I don't know how accurate that is. That must be like the early 70s when those diagnosis is, and I don't know who diagnosed her, was her, you know, an actual psychiatrist or her mom just thought that, so whatever. But she starts using drugs as a lot of us do, and graduates early from boarding school at 16 and she

moves out on her own and by 17 is in New York City. She arrives right as the New York punk scene is blowing up and she makes money with part time sex work. So she's totally enamored with the punk scene and all the hot dudes and the bands, you're 17 and And she eventually becomes known as a groupie and she follows bands like the New York Dolls and the Ramones and it seems like she's just hanging out in that big, you know, CBGB era.

I mean, like, just the definition of cool. Exactly, like she's there, she's in it. But she, even she is regarded as allowed and obnoxious and unlikable, which I'd like to say is kind of the most punk rock thing. You can flopping. Do. It really is.

So like, yeah, I feel like it's either that people have a problem with that. It means you must be really over the top, or maybe they're just not punk rock enough. But she's rejected by other groupies and accepted by the musicians mainly for her ability to get heroin and supply heroin to them. So she follows the punk band Johnny Fender's and the heartbreakers, they go to London

for their tour there in 1977, but they tell her to get lost. I think their manager was like, this chick is problematic. She like just anyone she's around becomes a hot dog, a addict, which is like, I think they can do that on their own. And she ends up meeting the sex pistols instead. So when 19 year old Sid Vicious and 18 year old Nancy Spungin meet, they're inseparable right away. They move in together really quickly.

And in a daily B-Stylicle, Malcolm McLaren writes that Nancy teaches Sid all about, quote, sex and drugs and the lifestyle of a New York rocker. And some people think that Sid lost his virginity to Nancy, actually. Yeah, because he wasn't in, he liked heroin more than sex. So, you know, sex is stupid and boring. A whole lot of people blame Nancy for Sid's heroin addiction, but it seemed like his mom

might be the bigger issue. And he was fine before Nancy came along with that. If he was getting it for his birthday, it's her fault. But I guess like heroin at that time in the London scene wasn't big and everyone blames Nancy to bringing it over to then like introducing it to that scene. Wow. I know. Nancy, who took bringing it over to then like introducing it to that scene. Wow. I know.

So in the documentary, Who Killed Nancy, everyone talks about how Sid was like so smart and sweet and a goofy kid with a great sense of humor. It's like fun to be around. And he was this young, impressionable dude. But then they go on to tell these forking stories about him. And what an awful, violent person he was, but like they tell it lovingly, but he actually tortured and killed cats. There's multiple stories of him doing that. He would go out looking for a fight and go out to shows like looking for fights. He used his belt buckle or a bike chain

as a weapon after he'd pick a fight with someone at one show. He threw a bottle at a girl and permanently blinded her in one eye. She's this great. There are stories of him vomiting on groupies and getting into fights at shows and like swinging and swinging his base at like the audience, trying to hit them on purpose. He's like mommy. Mommy. I'm so glad you love me. Love me. Mommy.

Yeah. So Johnny, yeah, of all those things purposely throwing up on people is so awful. I'd rather take a belt buckle to the cheeks, then have some puke on me. There's a story. Can I tell you that like, I think it was Joey Ramon went into a bathroom in London to shoot up with Sid Vicious. And there was no water to mix the heroin with. And so Sid took the syringe and in a clunking toilet bowl full of puke. No, we use that like absolutely. He was just like one upping everyone who was already trying to one up society. Fun. Yeah. Luckily, he never met Ozzy. That was behind the music stores where Ozzy was snorting lines of ants and stuff. Oh god, but he was friends with Lemmy, which is pretty cool.

That is actually rad. So Johnny Rotten's. RIP Lemmy. RIP. Johnny Rotten's dad actually witnessed some of this insanity and stated that he felt that they were due to vicious, insatiable need for attention, never met by his mother because she was a drug addict. He said of Sid Vicious quote, if he was sitting here and no one was taking any notice of him,

he'd cut his hand or something to attract attention. You'd have to take your mind off everything else and look at him. And he was like, he'd cut himself a lot, like pretty severely and just always seem to like, be the center of attention. He sounds like a real laughing. Cash hole.

And not a pleasant person at all, even though everyone's saying how lovely he is And I think this whole Nancy corrupted him thing is not legit at all not saying she's a great person Well, it's like he's respect. He's still an adult as bad as his childhood is he's responsible for himself Exactly, you know, yeah very like convenient. I mean, I know especially, you know, the portrayal of her is accurate, which I, it seems like it is. Chloe, what's her name? That I'm wearing. Yes, Chloe. I love her so much. She's so good at that role. But that, you know, the voice and the whole thing where she didn't give home by any, she's like, she was, you know, the real deal. So I think

it's very easy. Like when a woman like that comes along, a difficult woman, it's like that, that's your scapegoat for everybody. Well, it's like she's part of that Yoko O'No and Courtney Love and her of like, you ruined it. And it's like they kind of ruined it themselves. They ruined it. They ruined it. They were in there at those dudes. And actually, then you also factor in the many instances of domestic violence against Nancy by said He beat her and left her with a broken nose and a torn ear among other injuries. I think it was Malcolm McLaren that said quote Sid chose Nancy every bit as much as she chose him and in respect of their dangerous destructive codependency He and Nancy were ideally suited. So, you know, they kind of were perfect together in that way.

Yeah. And everyone said that she filled a void and he filled a void in her, that the other one needed. Nancy took care of Sid in a lot of ways. And actually, if he, there's old video footage, if you go on YouTube and put in Sid and Nancy interview, there's that interview from them in a bed where she's just trying to get sit to, oh, hey, wake up, he's nodding off and talking to the end. Like, can I make you coffee? Do you need coffee? You know, right. Over the next few months, as the sex pistols become huge and they're all over the tabloids for their insane behavior and this anti-crown songs. Sid and Nancy are also like famous and are

all over the press for their heroin-fueled antics and the press labels Spungeon as nauseating Nancy. They love to do those stupid nicknames. They really do. Because I really do. Public display displays of verbal abuse and the shocking behavior and He does everything she wants without question once he she said to him push that groupie down the stairs and he pushed her down the stairs Jesus Things are going devil devil children. That's right and the other members of the sex crystals collecting hate Nancy so much that they ban her from their upcoming 1978 US tour. And in fact, their manager had already tried to get Nancy kidnapped and sent back to New York City unsuccessfully.

Yeah. Their tour manager told People Magazine that Sid began to dislike everything except for heroin and Nancy. But there was already a risk-goreing which in the band between the manager and Johnny Rotten. So, Sid Vicious's behavior only made things worse and it just seems like Nancy's presence in Sid's life sped up the demise of the band

but wasn't the catalyst. It doesn't seem like Johnny Rotten was a happy peach to work with either. Not at all, but at least he was trying to have a real band and take the success they were earning with their, the whole, you know, directive. It was a great idea and it was cool and it was like, and then it's just like someone that's just like hamster bent on ruining it.

Just stripping and falling over the entire thing. Yeah. And just making a mess. Just ruining it. So the sex puzzles break up after their last US performance in San Francisco in January, 1978, and then sit in Nancy, go to New York City and move into the historic hotel Chelsea in New York City. I said New York City. It's known for house, it's like a historic landmark now. I felt that it much. It was

good. I felt it in my chest chest and I felt it in your chest. So, through the wires we could finally look. I'm channeling punk rock. Yeah. So, of course, the hotel Chelsea's famous, you know, Jimmy Button, Dylan and Mark Twain and Stan, like everyone famous ever stayed there and Sid and Nancy move into room 100 and register as Mr. and Mrs. John Simon Richie. So they continue their people Bob Crazy lifestyle, crazy drug abuse, partying, these raging arguments, domestic

violence, and all sorts of shady characters are coming in and out of their room and they are there for three months and it's just a chaotic time. So at this one day, I mean, they're 21 months. And on the night of October 11th, 1978, they throw a party and went at the party as any good boyfriend slash host of the party does. Sid takes at least 32-no tablets,-nall tablets, two-nall tablets.

Never heard of it. It's a strong barbiturate and he takes 30 of them. So he's attempting suicide at the party. He's just, no, he's just having a laugh. Okay. Yeah. And it knocks him out, obviously. So that sounds fun. And the following morning at 730 the hotel guests start to report the sound of a woman groaning from room 100. And then at 10am Sid calls down to the reception and tells them that he needs help and when staff gets up there they find Nancy's lifeless body under the bathroom sink in the

room and she has a single stab wound in her stomach. And so at just 20 years old Nancy Spongen is dead. 20. They did all of that. It's crazy. I didn't realize they'd only been together for two years. I always thought having watched the movie. I thought it was years and years.

That's crazy. So the staff at the hotel number said being like he was days, he was wandering the hall, he was wailing about how he had killed her, and during his initial interview, he confesses and says, I did it because I'm a dirty dog. So he confesses, but he's arrested and charged with second-degree murder. But once he's arrested, he contracts his confession, saying he was asleep at the time. And he woke up and found her dead. And he said that maybe Nancy rolled over onto the knife when she wasn't bad and acts

and only stabbed herself. No, unlikely. Don't think so. Don't think so. Personally. No, no, no. Personal opinion. No.

So in the following days, Sid is released on $25,000 bail supplied by Virgin Records, which is the band shampoo label. Or it's his label at the time. And a little while later, his bail is revoked after he assaults Patty Smith's brother Todd Smith with a broken Heineken bottle in a bar. Because he was hitting on this dude Todd's girlfriend. And so the guy Todd comes up and is like, please don't hit on my girlfriend or whatever. And he can make hits him in the face with a bottle like slashes his face. So he's so seduicious to send to rikers to go through detoxification program and get clean. But unfortunately, that doesn't happen because while he's there, his mother and Beverly smuggles

in her vagina, drugs to Sid. Lady. Lady. Lady. Lady. So Sid's released after 55 days on $10,000 bail. So then his mom and some friends want to throw him a freedom party a couple days later. Yeah. So on February 1st, 1979, Sid and his friends and mom are having a party at the

Greenwich Village apartment of Sid's new girlfriend, Michelle, and his mother and get some drugs for him for the evening. And Sid takes the drugs, but he thinks they're too, the heroin, but he thinks it's too weak. So he asks another friend at the party to get him some more. And his friend goes out and buys some heroin from people he's never bought heroin from before. And so the heroin is 98% pure, which is not what you normally get on the street

and is way too pure for human consumption, but Sid takes it and his friend takes them himself and almost overdoses and is like, be careful. This is really strong. But then when the party breaks up and his friend leaves him with, Sid with his mother and the heroine and shortly after, it seems like Sid kind of sneaks some heroin and takes more. And in the morning, his mother goes to wake him up and finds him dead. From an overdose, he is 21 years old and it's just four months after Nancy's death. Quite bad.

I mean, yeah. 21 and 20. Also, okay, go ahead. No, go ahead. It just, how come you had a girlfriend immediately after? I think they met at Rikers and like rehab or something. She's crying. I met my first real boyfriend and rehab.

But not for heroin. Thank God. Well, also, I mean, that's kind of a good place in some ways, because I guess you're all sitting in a circle being super real and authentic. We did stop doing meth together, so. Nice. I guess it worked. But with Sid's death, the police closed the case on Nancy.

On Nancy's death, and no further investigation is ever done. And over the years, people have debated about Nancy's murder and whether or not Sid actually killed her. And there's all these theories in my estimation. And I think I kind of show this in the movie, you know, he gets, he's high, he gets annoyed with her, he stabs her, he goes back to sleep. That's probably what happened. But there is a possibility that he didn't kill her. Because the amount of drugs he was on, maybe he couldn't have woken up. There's other suspects. There's drug dealers in and out of the room the night before. And the police did say that they had been robbed of $1,500. But that could happen anyway.

Yeah. But I mean, and people hated her enough to have her kidnapped to get away from her. I mean, like, it's not like she was like, love, beloved by all, beloved by all exactly. It's like God, there must have been so many suspects. That's right. But the police and the police discovered fingerprints belong to six different people who had criminal records, but they never interviewed any of them. And none of the visitors from the night before were ever interviewed. The murder weapon had also been wiped down and cleaned.

Oh, and no blood or fingerprints were found on it. So that's a weird one, right? Sounds like the cops were like two junkies killed each other, like a junkie killed another junkie. And it's like, we're not doing the paperwork. Right. But if he had like in the middle of, you know, being passed out stabbed her, I don't think he would have had the wear with all the wipe. Or maybe he did it right before he called the cops. Seems unlikely, but yeah. Yeah, who knows. I mean. And then if she had done it, which a lot of people think that they did, why would she, how and why would she wipe off the weapon? That she stabbed herself?

Yeah, and it is true that she had done like a suicide attempt before just to get his attention. So that's not totally out of the realm of possibility. And then there's also people who think that they had a suicide pack together. When, after Sid's death, his mom found a handwritten note in Sid's leather jacket reading, we had a death pack, and I have to keep my half of the bargain. Please bury me next to my baby. Burry me in my leather jacket, jeans, and motorcycle boots, goodbye.

Wow. So maybe he overdosed on purpose, who knows? And it's also possible that Nancy killed herself on accident because she was, you know, she was no, also, they were both also known to self-metallate. And so after finding that note and contacts Nancy's parents and asked a sip could be buried next to Nancy. And they're like, heck, no, first of all, she's being buried in a Jewish cemetery. And second of all, like we think he is part of the reason she's dead, you know, of course, they were like, no.

But Anne does climb over the fence of the cemetery and scatter some of Sid's ashes on Nancy's grave. Wow. What a mother. She did it. She did it. She really did it. So the biopic said Nancy from 1986, Direct Amazing, Amazing, Amazing, Directed by Alex Cox, who did repo man. Did you know that?

Yeah. Of course you did. Yeah. So it's said it's played by Gary Oldman and Nancy's played by Chloe Webb and And also of course musician Courtney Love was 22. Yeah, and she was like this is the the role I meant to play. Unfortunately she didn't get the role but she does play a smaller part as one of Nancy's friends. Yeah, she's I mean she's a standout though. She is.

That's the thing about Courtney Love. I remember watching that movie and it's like oh No, what's happening here? Yeah, like you can't take your eyes off She never does anything have handshake. No, no sure. Yeah, she's a real deal. So Sid's mother and takes her own life in 1996 at 63 years old and The Guardian sums up the that sit in Nancy's tragedy as Romeo and Juliet with syringes. And there is a poem that Sid wrote for Nancy that goes, you were my little baby girl and I knew all your fears, such joy to hold you in my arms and kiss away your tears.

But now you're gone, there's only pain and nothing I can do. And I don't want to live this life if I can't live for you. So there might have been actually like real love there between the two of them. And finally, I have someone who understood the other. Yep, but you can't add hair when into the mix. Yeah, I mean, that's going to wreck it. Yeah, for sure. So music critic Lester Bangs legendary after Nancy's death said quote, sit and Nancy were possibly two of the most pathologically tortured humans on the face of the earth. And that is the deaths of Sid, Vicious and Nancy Spongeon. Wow. Amazing. Great job. Thank you. great job. Thank you. Everyone go watch the Nancy. It's so good. Gary old Nancy. It's like Gary Oldman's like breakout

role right? Yeah he's so good. He was in a he was in a really good movie right before. I think before that it was British that was about a British playwright who was gay. Now I can't remember what it's called. It was so good. I remember the movie. Yeah, I saw it today in one of the articles, but I can't remember what it was. It's a sort of dog in the title. I can't remember. Let's see. It's really good. Very 90s. In the movie, in Sid and Nancy, Sid's mom gave Gary Oldman when she went, he went to talk to her, gave him the actual chain and lock that Sid War to wear in the movie, so that's the real one there.

Oh wow. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Kind of cool. Yeah. God, that mom, man. What did it talk about? She's the third most tortured soul in the planet.

That's right. I mean pathologically, whatever. Yeah. God, it's just so unhealthy. It's so unhealthy and it's so like, oh, you didn't stand a chance. No. Little kid, like you didn't have a shot at a normal life. And you know what sucks is that the music, I think that a lot of people who had really shabby childhoods, they do go into music and it is their escape. It is the, it is the release. It's the thing that brings them somewhere else.

Yeah. And he had the opportunity. Clearly he could play instruments, he had a musical, like, you know, talent and but, but, but rotten. Heroin, heroin ruins everything. And there is this idea too. Like if he had gone to Reikers and actually tried to get sober,

it maybe his life would have taken a total different trajectory. And maybe Nancy's life, if she had had a chance to go home and recover a little and get real psychiatric help, then maybe her life could have been way different. I bet she would have been pretty... Lippin! Awesome. Yeah, but the thing that makes it so dark is like,

he couldn't do that because his own mom was like sabotage. Exactly. That sucks. Yeah, but the thing that makes it so dark is like he couldn't do that because his own mom was like sabotage. Exactly. That sucks so much. Oh, I looked up the, that Vivian Westwood documentary is called Westwood colon punk icon activist. It's from 2018. Cool.

It's really mind blowing because I, my hilarious friend Luke loves Vivian Westwood so much and he basically made me watch that. And I didn't know, I knew about her very tangentially and kind of like her cool style, but not details. Like she really, she was a driving force of the actual style of that late 70s. Which is such a huge part of it. Can almost say that one wouldn't exist

without the other in a way. And they say, you know, like all those styles of like having safety pins or wearing like, you know, the clothes they wore, it was part of it was because of the, the, there was really bad socio-economic, it was like thatcher's England at that time. And so they would have like, the garbage men would go on strike. And then there, so there was just garbage piled in the streets. So when the teenagers would walk from like their house to a club, and I can't remember, this, if this might be in Sid Nancy or it might be in a documentary about that time, they would just pick up garbage bags and put them on.

You know what I mean? Because it was just like garbage was everywhere. People were poor, there were strikes all the time. There's a lot of labor issues. There was like, there was so much tension, kind of a depression, and an attention. There was like very much like class, class issues. And that's why, you know, that whole thing of like God saved the queen and basically saying flop, you royals. It took off because it was like, we're all down here in the muck and literally in piles of garbage and you're in your tower, like saying pay more taxes. Right. Right.

Rough stuff. All right. Karen, it's time. Friday, hooray. Yes. I love it. All right. Do you want me to go first?

Sure. This starts Friday, hooray. Hey, I'm FM fam. During the COVID-19 quarantine, I've been feeling hopeless and helpless as I'm not an essential worker, nor a healthcare worker, and I'm horrible with a needle in thread.

I felt there was something more I could be doing to contribute to supporting our community during this time. My boyfriend and I took to walking around our community with trash bags and my old wagon, collecting litter from parks and road sides. After just one weekend, we collected eight contractor trash bags filled to the brim. If I can't fight the virus directly, at least I can fight pollution. Thanks for all you do, keep killing the game and stay healthy for all our sick Shelby in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. That's awesome Shelby.

That's duckling. Beautiful and important. It's important for your mental health, and it's so cool that you found something to do, but you're helping your community and that's duckling. Beautiful. It's really beautiful. That's so smart.

This one is from a rangublent, something. Okay, hashtag promo code murder. My French hooray is for the staff at St. Mary's Hospital in Decatur, Illinois. I went into their ER late Tuesday night with intense stomach pain and ended up needing an emergency app index to me. Oh, the time.

So scary. Oh my God. Due to COVID-19, my husband was not allowed to be with me and I had to go through the whole thing alone. Every single nurse, doctor, and staff member was gentle, friendly, and comforting. I had never had surgery before, so it was especially scary.

Everything went well, and I'm back home recovering. Oh, thank God. Oh my God, how terrifying. So terrifying, I'm so glad that went well. Yeah. What a bummer to be like, I really don't want to go to the hospital. I have to go to the hospital. Yeah.

And I have to go. Yeah. Okay. This is from Blood Splatter Analyst and it's Anna is an all-cat. So I'm assuming this person's name is Anna. Hi. My fabulous hooray. It's a down my street.

A little girl is always on her porch and every day she does something special for people walking by. She has her violin practices out there, makes signs, yells out funny jokes, etc. She brings me joy every time I pass her and she loves when I say something back to her. Stay home and safe, but make sure you still interact with others somehow. Anna. That's so cute. That is very cute. We have been to my sitout front of our garage now and our lawn chairs and say hello to everyone walking by

and silently judge them if they're not wearing masks, but you know, so true. This is from Science of Myself, says my friendly hooray. For the week, I work at a domestic violence shelter in Central Texas, and this week our staffs received a cookie delivery. It was from Brunei Brown. What? And then there's a smiley face emoji, a cookie emoji, and a heart emoji.

How incredible. I didn't know this when I talked about Brunei Brown at the top of the show. I hadn't read this yet. But what that's the whole story? Yeah. They received a cookie delivery at their domestic violence shelter in central Texas, and it was from Brunei Brown. Yes, Brunei Brown. I mean, just class act. Just doing it right. Class act. That's beautiful. Yeah. This one is from Ashley Ann. Ashley Ann.

Okay. I am a first time mom and my two-month-old baby girl cannot sleep for more than 15 minutes by herself alone in the bedroom. She has to be sleeping right next to me or my husband or one of us has to hold her. She will sleep for hours this way. But this morning, after I fed her,

I put her back down in the bedroom for a nap and she slept for all caps two and a half hours away. Yay! My husband and I were able to make ourselves breakfast and he worked on his laptop while I enjoyed some me time with a cup of coffee and a few chapters of the stranger beside me. Oh, so hell yeah. Also, I only peaked in on her once to make sure she was still breathing, which is a major

progress, which is major progress because I wanted to check in again like 80 more times, but I talked myself down baby steps literally. Friend, hooray. From me and my baby girl, SSDGM Ashley Ann. Good job, Ashley Ann. You know, my mom used to tell the story when she had my sister, her first baby, she would go in every 15 minutes with a mirror

because she wanted to make sure Laura was still breathing. I bet, it's just terrifying. How could you not tell? Yeah, okay, here's my last one. This is from Mushroom Beast. My Hashtag Fun. Totally. Okay, here's my last one. This is from mushroom beast. My hashtag fun. Here I, is that my mom Linda gave me a thumbs up yesterday. My mom had a stroke in February and it was the scariest day I've ever experienced. She was totally healthy, doesn't smoke, doesn't

drink, and one Sunday morning she just had a stroke. She was paralyzed down her left side for a while and with intense physiotherapy, her movement is coming back and we kept joking that when she could give me a thumbs up, we'd celebrate. Well yesterday I came downstairs and she was sitting grinning at me with her thumb up. She's the strongest woman I know and she has just been so determined and focused

in her recovery. So French her and thumbs up. Yes. Oh my God. Crazy. The little things you focus on like in that matter once, once, you know, once everything is real. Yeah.

When you get that perspective of like listen, this is the thing that it gives us a lot of stress and a lot of, you know, panicky feelings, but there is this advantage to looking at life like that could happen to you or you could catch the cerebral disease or something that this is not. We are lucky every moment that we have with our health is a gift and we should treat ourselves like it's a gift and we should treat other people like it's a gift and we should treat ourselves like it's a gift, and we should treat other people like it's a gift, and we should all go out onto our symbolic porches with our symbolic violins and play them for other people and be nice to your neighbors and wave to people

and like get in the game while you still can. It's important. I love that. It's so true. It's so true. I really, really hope that we come out of this whenever we come out of it a little kinder. Everyone is a little more easy on everyone else and a little kinder.

Well, I think already a lot of us and it's only been about two months really of starting to appreciate the like other human beings and the potential connection and the connections that we have and the things that we miss and that all those things that the screen doesn't give it to you. And the internet does not give it to you and you can only really get it from people in front of you. And so hopefully that's something that doesn't just immediately evaporate. The second we're all like, woohoo. So over. I can go go baseball game or whatever.

Yeah, for sure. And thanks all of you for listening. Everyone is, people say such nice things to us online about continuing to do this podcast. For me, it's a gift to get to. What a miracle that we get to do that and we have these people that care so much and listen and give it.

It's plash. I mean, like, it's really nice. It's really, really, it's really a gift. That's a thank you guys. Thank you. We're so incredibly lucky and grateful for you guys. Send your big feelings. Just hashtag them and we'll read them next week, maybe.

Yeah, bigger, small, whatever's going on with you. It's very good for your mental health to keep a gratitude list. And so try to do it and try to find those moments so that you can big feelings along with us. And the meantime, stay saved and do God's mission. God's mission. Bye. Elevus, do you and do God's mission. God's mission!

Elvis, do you want a cookie? Yeah. Yeah. OK. This has been an exactly right production. Our producer is Alejandra Keck. Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton. This episode was edited by Leana Squilotchi.

Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook your producers, Hannah Kyle Crighton. This episode was edited by Leana Squilotchi. Followed to show an Instagram and Facebook at my favorite murder and Twitter at my favorite murder. Goodbye! Listen, follow, leave a say review on Amazon Music, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, prime members, did you know that you can listen to my favorite murder early and ad free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today. You can support my favorite murder by filling out a survey at Wendery.com slash survey.