My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - My Favorite Murder Presents: I Saw What You Did - Episode 1: Esteemed Dirtbags

Episode Date: November 17, 2020

My Favorite Murder presents the first episode of I Saw What You Did where Millie and Danielle talk about THE HONEYMOON KILLERS (1970) and HEAVENLY CREATURES (1994), and Danielle's grandmother explains the life lessons we can learn from horror movies. Listen and subscribe to I Saw What You Did on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Guys, we're so excited because our new film podcast, I Saw What You Did, has premiered. We are sharing episode one with you here in the My Favorite Murder Feed. And then episode two of the podcast comes out today. So head on over to subscribe to I Saw What You Did to listen to this week's episode. I Saw What You Did is hosted by film expert,

Millie DeCherico and film enthusiast and TV writer, Danielle Henderson. Every Tuesday, they present you with a double feature covering two movies that share a wild theme like classic movie fuckboys or blonde women who will ruin your life. The theme for this episode, entitled esteemed dirt bags, is favorite films based on true crime,

and they discuss the movie's heavenly creatures and the honeymoon killers. Plus, Danielle's grandma made a special appearance in this episode that already broke the internet with her child-rearing advice using horror films as learning tools. And on top of all that, Millie and Danielle bring a much-needed female and person-of-color voice

to movie culture in a really fun way. So check out episode one of I Saw What You Did right now and go find episode two in the I Saw What You Did feed. You'll get a new episode presenting a double feature every Tuesday. Don't forget to subscribe to I Saw What You Did on Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And you can follow them at I Saw Pod on Instagram

and on Twitter. Goodbye. Goodbye. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the very first episode of I Saw What You Did. My name is Millie DeCherico. And I'm Danielle Henderson, and we're gonna be watching a different double feature

every week with a wild theme that we choose. Let's legitimize ourselves. Let's endear ourselves to you as an audience. Well, I feel like it's important that people know that we're like, we're friends in real life. Yes, we know each other. We love each other. This is not just a business arrangement.

We were not set up on a date from the podcast Bachelor or whatever, like... But we're real friends. Like, we're like, met on live journal friends. Like, we've known each other for way back, met in real life, and now both live in Los Angeles. Although you have defected for a moment. You're a momentarily elsewhere.

You're in your secret bunker. Yeah. But I think we're excited to do this podcast because I'm a film enthusiast, but you are a film expert. And we go to the movies all the time. And it's a big part of our friendship is to watch movies, talk about movies. Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, I think...

I mean, if you want to call me a film expert, I'll let you for the sake of this exercise. But I will say, I never want to hang out with other film experts. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm like, why would I do that? So I'm so glad that I roped you into doing this podcast with me because I'm like, Danielle, she is like a perfect...

You, like, love film, but you're not, like, you know, in that world where you're like, well, actually, in 1948, the key grip for, you know, blah, blah, blah, you're not, you know, mailing me every five minutes for getting, like, a year wrong for something. No way. Well, at least I wasn't until we started doing this. And now I'm going to walk straight, cold facts or get out.

But that's why I'm glad to be doing this with you as well, because when I say film expert, I mean it. Like, you're so knowledgeable about film and it's part of your job. You're a film programmer for TCM, but it's also part of your life. So when you talk about movies, it's just so enthusiastic and you don't make me feel like,

oh, you've never watched this, we'll get, I can't talk to you. If you've never watched, you know, Gone with the Wind. And it's, you know, I like that. I appreciate that about it. Aw, that's really sweet. I'm really glad that you see me like that, because I think, again, going back to sort of, like, the film person stereotypes, like, you know, I think that film, like, music,

like a lot of things is just an intimidating subject because it's, you know, span the course of history. It's, there's a lot going on. There's a lot that has gone on. And so it's sort of like a thing where you're like, oh man, I don't even know. I think it's really enjoyable to hang out with people who haven't watched movies that I watched.

And I'm also not the type of person that's trying to, like, get you to watch a movie, like, in that way, where it's like, come on, what are you, stupid? Like, you've never seen, blah, blah, blah. I just think that's, there's so many reasons why people haven't watched movies. I mean, there's a lot of movies I haven't watched that would probably shock so many people in my field.

For me to do a podcast with somebody who's more of a cultural critic, I would say, about you, I think that you're a writer. You're definitely a scholar of culture and gender. And, you know, it's just gonna be really interesting to do it with you because you're just so super smart. Like, I mean, honestly, like, you are way more accomplished than I am.

I'm like going, oh, you've like written two books and you are, you know, really well-known for your perspective and what you offer. So it's gonna be great, like. But the cool thing is that I'm not wearing pants right now. So accomplished or not, I'm still a dirtbag. I think it's what it comes down to is that we can still be complete dirtbags.

Exactly. But being, you know, esteemed. Esteemed dirtbags would be a great second name for our podcast. But that's also why we're doing this. We want to make movies accessible to people and make people feel like, you know, if you've never seen this, then let's talk about it. It's cool.

You'll have ways to, an accessible way to get into movies you might not have ever seen or heard of. And we just want to help you build up your library in that way and build the fun in your life. Because some of these are fun. And we're gonna get into doing that by picking a different theme that we have come up with every week.

The themes are gonna be sort of informed by our experiences as women, our experiences as like movie goers and then just our life experiences. And so, I mean, I want to stress that a lot of times you're gonna come to the podcast and go, oh, wait a minute, what about this movie? That's what the point is.

Like we're not trying to be exhaustive. We're not, these are basically like double features about specific themes that we think are like entertaining or funny or just sort of through lines between movies that we've seen over the years. And like I said, we want to have that conversation with you if there's something in the theme that you think is like a no-brainer and you want to talk about it,

it's something that means something to you, then definitely contact us, that's what we want. And we want this to be like a conversation, so. And it's also cool that we're not white or men. We're two brown ladies, welcome. White men dominate film podcasts, let's be real. And we wanted to kind of disrupt that a little bit. And again, prove that films are for everyone.

So that's what we're doing. I'm so happy that we're at least getting together and talking about movies on this podcast because it's like, right now I won't tell you, I'm living with family, I'm quarantining with family right now. And you talk about people that don't know a damn thing about movies. Like they don't know a damn thing.

And I'm not, again, I'm not trying to like paint them as like, oh man, I'm not a snob, I'm like the opposite of a snob. But they don't know shit. You're living with people who don't even speak your language, basically. Yeah. I mean, I'm like, my mom and dad have like seven DVDs,

I think, there's like seven DVDs in a drawer and it's the most random shit. It's like, you know, Euro trip. And then like... Dunkirk. Like, yeah, there's like a, you know, the Nicholas Cage Scorsese movie that was about the ambulance driver,

like that movie bringing out the dead, is that what it's called? Oh my gosh. I mean, I'm like, I have no idea why the seven were chosen. And they just, I mean, it's really, really bad. But it's kind of like funny to me because obviously I'm like, I don't know how I was born from this ambulance, you know,

but it's funny. I think it allowed you to go harder in the direction of figuring, finding stuff out because it was both, you know, the 90s where you had to, there was no internet, you had to find out stuff that you were interested in, you had to really dig deep. But when you come from a background

where you're like, none of this is even around me, like I don't know any of this stuff, then of course you go harder at it. Yeah. And like, honestly, like when it comes down to and my parents are like big cable, like they're into cable movies. I guess that's better than being in like cable news.

But they're, they will watch anything on like a TNT or like, you know, anything that's on like stars. You know, they're just really into like watching movies that are just randomly on. Like my dad watched CB4 the other day and I was like kind of, I was like, that's awesome. Like what made you want to watch CB4? I mean, like, do you even know what CB4 is like parenting?

I mean, it's so. That is my favorite thing I've ever heard because I've met your parents and that is darling. So we're going to have to get my dad on the CB4 episode apparently. Completely. He can talk about it. And I have kind of an opposite background,

which we'll dig into as the podcast goes on. But I was raised by Maniacs, my grandparents and my grandmother loves horror movies and she loves gore. She loves carnage. And so my granddad, when he died, she put his ashes on a shelf in her bedroom behind her saw and hostile DVDs.

So this bitch watches movies all day long and they are terrifying and disgusting. And we're going to hear, we might hear from her later. We'll occasionally call her up and get her her opinion on. Oh my God, I cannot wait. So basically, so the theme of this podcast and the way that we're introducing and talking into movies and being part of the film community

is that we're each going to watch a movie every week. We're going to watch these two movies and present them to each other. What's the theme this week? The theme this week is our favorite true crime films. List a mile long. Yes. So these are movies that were based in part on actual crimes.

And again, like you said, it can be a very long list. But these are kind of our fames. What did you watch for your true crime? So my movie this week is a movie from 1970 directed by a man named Leonard Castle. It's called The Honeymoon Killers. Ray was a con man who made one mistake. He fell in love and took Martha along for the ride.

I can arrange a meeting with a very nice woman in New Orleans. There's no harm in writing to somebody who's so gentle and refined and whose sister is a nurse. Ray and Martha could have been the honeymoon lovers. But Martha's insane jealousy turned them into the honeymoon killers. So have you ever seen this movie before? No, I'd never seen it until we decided to talk about it.

And a lot of things stood out to me as pretty fantastic about it. A lot of themes we'll get into and talk about. But I was really primarily struck by the lead actress of this film. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about why you chose this movie and who she is and what it's based on. So this is one of actually my favorite films.

I mean, I have a lot, but this is one of them. So the original story was based off of this couple who were called the Lonely Hearts Killers. Their names are Martha Beck and Raymond Fernandez. And they were essentially con artists where their whole con was that they relied on this Lonely Hearts Club, which is a very old concept now. It's like OG Tinder.

Oh, yeah. It was essentially where lonely women would write in, write letters to find lonely men. And then they get paired up. And then they just wrote letters to each other. And what's cool about Martha and Ray is that they, at least in terms of the movie and I believe in real life, is that they actually

had a very vibrant letter writing life to get, like they really fell in love through their words. Well, that's one of the best sequences in the movie is they're writing letters to each other and there's this build up and intensity where at first they're kind of just like, hey, how's it going? And then they're like, I love you. I'm obsessed with you.

I can't live without you. So it becomes this whole favored letter writing exchange. So essentially, the movie was the first movie for Leonard Castle, he wrote it initially. Then they went to find a director for it. And initially, the director was Martin Scorsese. He lasted about two weeks. Apparently, he was spending too much time on the details.

Like he was panning the riverbed or something for too long. Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, he was basically an artist. So they were like, uh-uh. Like, we're spending too much money and too much time doing this shit. Like, we got to get this.

We need to get to the murders. So they canned Marty and then they brought in Leonard. They're like, well, you wrote it. He might as well direct it. And he had never directed it. Which, first of all, such a 70s move, like, ah, that guy. And then the two actors that started it, Shirley Stoller and Tony Lobionko.

This was their first film. So it's like everybody's first time. Even though Shirley and Tony had worked in the theater, they had never been on film before. And the thing about Leonard Castle was that when he took over the direction of it, he was basically like Bonnie and Clyde had just come out in like 68.

And this movie was 69, 70. So at the time, everybody was obsessed with Bonnie and Clyde and this idea that like beautiful Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway were these like hot, sexy murderers. And Leonard Castle's like, fuck that. Like, I don't want to show sexy, hot people. I want to show the actual people who are real people who are not hot movie stars.

Like, we're going to get some real folks in here. Well, he had the perfect opportunity with this movie because Martha as a character is a mess. And I mean, physically, he showed that like, she shot them in different angles where he could show like the flabby arms. And like, he really showed like the reality of what it is to be an obsessive love.

Well, and like Shirley Stoller is such an amazing actress. I think honestly, I mean, she is my girl. Like, I'm a big fan of her. She's been a lot of great, interesting, weird films in her career. Did a lot of character work. She's definitely a proto-nurse ratchet. Oh, yeah.

She kind of has that look. She's got the like, she kind of has like a divine. Like, she has like a very like, her eyebrows are really intense. And she just kind of has this like, like cult look to it. Plus the movie opens with her like yelling at people for having sex. So in the film, essentially, it kind of just cuts to, it kind of removes a little bit of the backstory

between Martha and Rey like individually about the Rey character doesn't have like the thing where he had come from Spain and left his family to become a con artist. And it doesn't talk about Martha having kids or anything like that. So. And they lived in different states.

Yeah. So essentially, in the film, Martha is a nurse and she's living in Florida and she lives with her elderly mother. And she's just kind of like angsty and mean and like yelling at people at her job. And she doesn't seem happy. I guess that's what they're trying to communicate.

And not only lives with her mother, sleeps in a bedroom with her mother. Yeah. They have twin, the twin bed situation of the 40s and 50s, I think is the reason a lot of murders happened. Because I could not, it was so tense to watch that relationship simply because you knew they then had to lay down next to each other at night.

Well, I mean, listen, that is an old school thing. Like, I mean, I remember watching episodes of The Golden Girls where Sophia and Dorothy slept in the same bed and I was like, oh, damn. Like, I love my mom, but unless we're on vacation together and I ain't trying to sleep in the same bed. Because I need my space. No.

And especially at that moment where she was feeling like, you know, lonely. And it was basically like, oh, I live with my mom and I sleep in the same room with my mom. Like, I have no life. So she's obviously like kind of feeling some type of way about it. But like, essentially what happens

is is that her friend in the film who is played by Doris Roberts from Everybody Loves Raymond, as a lark, decides that she's going to send Martha, like she's going to sign Martha up for a Lonely Hearts Club. And it does. And Martha is like, oh, shit, why did you do this? I'm not looking for this. But then eventually she gets in touch with Ray.

And Ray is writing letters to her. And then that's when you see the sequence of the two of them kind of connecting, writing letters to each other, et cetera. And he's a lethario right off the bat. Like, he's got pictures of women on his piano or the women he's wooed. Like, you get that solidly that he is. He is the classic Latin lover trope

where he's kind of with a shirt open and his chest air hanging out. And he's real sexy. So they finally meet in real life. He comes down to Florida. And they spend a couple days together. And he's wooing both her and her mother, I'll have to say. And then he leaves.

And Martha is despondent. So he goes back to New York. And then he writes her kind of like a Dear Jane letter that's just like, I like you, but it ain't going to happen. And of course, she flips the fuck out. Threatened suicide immediately. Threatened suicide.

Gets Doris Roberts to call him and be like, can you tell him I'm about to kill myself? Because I just really want him. Like, I want to do it. That was such a creepy scene where she was just sitting on the bed coaching her friend to do this dirty work of convincing this man that she was about to kill herself for him.

That was like next level. Like, we've all, I feel like we can all say we've threatened to kill ourselves over a guy. But would I get my friend involved? Like, that is next level psychopathic. Yeah, I mean, it is tantamount to like posting like a thotty picture of yourself on Instagram and be like, yo, like, you know.

Exactly. Pay attention to me, the guy that I want to date. But basically, she. But it works. Well, it worked in this case. Because Ray was like, all right, fine. Come to New York. So he's like, here's the deal.

I con lonely middle-aged women for money. Maybe you, maybe not. I tried it with you. And apparently, it didn't work. Because now you're here. And this is who I am. And I love that she was just like, you know what? Solid.

She's like, fuck yeah. Let's do it together. She's like, I don't care. And he's like, what? She sees me. I guess, you know, this is meant to be or whatever. And that is something about this movie that hit me over. Like, right away is an overarching theme,

is this idea of obsessiveness. And I don't think it came through in the movie very strongly that he was obsessed with her. Because I think in real life, he was. But it definitely came through from her that she was willing to do anything for this particular man. Well, I think that that's the theme of the film. Is that the film is about lonely women and lonely women

who are willing to just fucking go there for companionship. She was like, OK, I'm down with this. And I will be not only that, but I will be your accomplice. And I will help you swindle these women, even though I was potentially a victim of yours. Girl on girl crime. Right. So she's like, so then eventually she's like, I'm on board.

Let me go back down to Florida. Get my mom in a nursing home, so I don't have to deal with her anymore. I've already drugged her so we could have sex, PS. I've already sleeping pill her to the max. And I'm a nurse. I'm an expert at drugging people. And then, of course, the mother is like, you know,

you're leaving me to be happy. And that's, you know, it's very complicated. But that was also a different time. And something that struck me is that it was expected for women to first give up their lives for men and then give up their lives for family in every capacity. So her mom is like, legit hanging out a window like, I can't believe you're leaving me.

Like, could not be laying on a Thicker Guild trip. And she's like, in order for me to live my life, I have to marry a con man and become a murderer. So eventually what happens is that she leaves mom and then she starts going on the road with Ray. And, you know, Ray is continuing to, you know, do his scam, which is that he's answering his letters from these lonely old women, you know, who are writing in.

And I have to say, like, they're victims during this entire section of the film are their tip. They're like what I would consider kind of like that. Middle America, they're all like middle-aged white women who are into Jesus and the United States. And they are patriotic. And they're just kind of like, these are women who are so happy that they will sing the National Anthem

in the bathtub, which was something that rocked me more than the murders. When I saw that bitch in that tub, scrubbing her back and singing about the Purple Mountains Majesty, I was like, what is actually happening right now? And I was like, I don't even know if I've been ever the, I don't think I've ever been that happy where I'm like, singing the National Anthem.

Ever, yeah. Much less than a tub or a shower. That's true. That's not the height of happiness for me. And that's also not like the first song I go to whenever I'm just like in the shower or whatever. I can't go like a neck and coal or anything. So, but anyway, as it, you know, so what happens is,

is that like as this, these scams are unfolding, like she's like, she's posing as his sister. So they're going to these different towns, meeting up with these lonely women. And the vibe is that he's just gonna like romance them until they sign their insurance checks or they give them, give them cash from their bank accounts. And then he's gone or they're gone.

So while this is happening, like Martha is going, all right, I know I was on board with this, but man, it is hard to see the dude that I love and would have killed myself for be with other women. And I know that he's telling me, oh, I don't mean nothing to me. And I'm not having sex with them, even though he's having sex with them, like some of them.

And she's just slowly becoming unglued. And, you know, as I'm reading the actual crime, it seemed like that was happening too. But I think for the movie purposes, it became this whole like, what's gonna happen when Martha finally flips the fuck out on the situation that she's in now, where she's basically told herself, well, in order to be with this guy,

then I'm gonna have to run this scam and pretend to be not in love with him. And there's a scene, my favorite scene, and actually the scene that one of the two scenes that Martin Scorsese actually shot, which is the scene at the lake, where he's with one of his new women. And like, they're both in these bathing suits, you know?

Like, Totilo Bianco is like a cut little cut Italian guy with these tiny shorts and he's got hair everywhere and he's just doing push-ups on the banks of the river and shit, like, you know. And then his new woman, the woman from the services, like, she's like an older woman, but she's very, you know, she's attractive and fit and she's wearing this bathing suit. And then you see Martha sitting there in a robe

because Lord knows it's vulnerable to be in a bathing suit, especially when at her size where she was feeling like kind of not right about the way she looked. And then you're watching your man, cavorting with some other woman in a bathing suit and they're in the river, like, you know, splashing each other and she's just like losing it. Like, her eyes are just like, you know, whatever.

And it's like, there's that moment where I was like, man, is there anything lonelier than that? Like, is there anything lonelier than watching, like, your crush or your guy hanging out with some other girl in bathing suits? Yeah. And you were having it in a bathing suit and you don't want to be in a bathing suit.

So, well, she did the next natural thing, which is to threaten to drown herself. And then Ray, you know, it's Ray's time, he is to go get her. And, you know, I think at that moment you really realize, okay, well, maybe they are in it together. Cause at first I was kind of like, oh, he's taking this woman for a ride again. But then I'm like, no, he cares, right?

And it's, if anything, he cares because she is onto him and will bust his ass for running these scams. Like, they're in it together now. There's no turning back. But then she's the one who kind of goes to the murder moment, right? Like, she's the one who kind of goes to like, I'm gonna put this lady on a bus and give her pills

and get her out of our life. And I don't care what happens to her. And that was kind of a sadness that I was feeling in this movie, which is that it's so sad that these women were being swindled so much and all they really wanted was attention and care and love. Like, that was sad. Yeah, I mean, this is kind of like,

I mean, this is probably what makes the movie kind of a good movie to me. And what makes it emotional is because it's like, you know, ultimately this is a story about a woman who is just desperate for connection. And she basically just like, we'll do it at any cost. And, you know, and the weird thing about this movie is that there is kind of like no one to root for

at the end of the day. Because eventually she becomes completely complicit. Like, even though you're like, okay, I understand why she's doing this. She's doing it because she's fucked up about love. But at the same time, you're like, nah, you drowned a kid. Yeah.

And then, you know, you like killed, you hit a lady with a hammer and you drowned her kid. And like, so you're in it. And like, whatever mental jump that you had to take to go there makes you not likable. Right. But I also think that that is interesting that she's not likable.

Because there's no happy ending to any of this. It's like, you know, these, in real life, these people were convicted of these murders and then they died in the electric chair. They were, you know, killed for their crimes. Yeah. So that's the thing is that there is no happy ending. And you know, that's what I think is great about the film

is that it doesn't pretend to be happy. It's just like, oh yeah, they are as bad as they are. And there is no love. Like it's just like they're horrible people in at the end. It also kind of feels like a very nice point of departure from a lot of true crime films. Because they're not trying, I don't even feel like the victims were that sympathetic

in a lot of ways. Like, I don't think they deserve to die. But I think that some of them were a little annoying and a little needy and a little cloying and a little bit much. So I can see how, again, the representation of that in film is that this is something to be wary of as a woman. Like, don't be too much because a man might kill you.

Well, yeah, it's another interesting part of it for sure. Because, you know, it is sort of like, you wonder, I mean, there's a absolute stereotype of like a lonely middle-aged spinster who is annoying and who is not, you know, soft and gentle. And they're, you know, they're weird and kooky. None of these women seem to be culturally acceptable, right? So like if these women had existed now,

it would have been completely fine for them to be on their own, to not have a dude, to like live their own life. They wouldn't have to have the twin bed situation with their moms, like, but this, they were not culturally acceptable within the moment, you know, because they wanted too much or they wanted something different.

And that's interesting to me, from a true crime perspective for sure. Yeah. But, you know, as a movie, I mean, it's great. Like, I think it's a gem, honestly. I feel like it doesn't get talked about enough. It's on Criterion Collection, so there's a really great, you know, copy of it out there.

And there's lots of great extras on that. I think it's on Blu-ray, but, you know, it's a, it's such a great film. And it's, again, it's very unique in the sense that it was made in a certain time. It was made by, like, it was the first films where pretty much everybody involved. And it, you know, really is kind of, like,

a gritty, raw, sort of fucked up movie. It's savage. It's one of those movies that I kind of, I want, even though I'm just seeing it now for the first time at 42, I want young women to watch this movie and to realize that, again, not taking the leap into murder, but to realize that, you know, your feelings are valid and it's hard to date, it's hard to be out in the world

and it's hard to want things. And, like, it's hard to have these emotions, but to kind of see this real, ordinary woman. I think it's important, foundationally, for girls to see that. Like, to see complicated, messy women. ["Messy Women"] Well, speaking of complicated, messy women.

Yeah. And speaking of obsession, let's talk about your movie for this week. My movie this week is Heavenly Creatures, directed by Peter Jackson. They were two young girls. Ah! Living in a world of imagination.

I'm going to the fourth world. It's an absolute paradise of music, art, and pure enjoyment. What they shared was a secret. Your daughters in behaving in a rather disturbed manner. What's she done? I think I'm going crazy. The crime that shocked the nation.

People die every day. Only the best people fight against all obstacles. She's uncontrollable. Ah! So, this movie came out in 1994, directed by Peter Jackson. It was based on a real-life case that happened in Christchurch, New Zealand.

It's the Parker Hume murder. And the details of the case is that 16-year-old Pauline Parker and her 15-year-old bestie, Juliet Hume, basically conspired to kill her mom when they found out Juliet's family was moving and would be separating them from each other. And they succeeded in doing that. Juliet, they put a brick in a stocking

and bashed her mom in the head on a walk and then ran out into the street and kind of got attention. And they were hoping it would be seen as an accident that they could write off and then they could be together and run to Hollywood and become these famous, you know, movie actresses. Because, again, they are teenagers, but they legitimately murdered her mom.

So, what ended up happening is that both of them were found guilty. They both served a five-year sentence, but a condition of their release was that they were ordered to never be in contact with each other again, which seems like something I definitely want to talk about. It seems almost impossible. I know, but it's in a weird way.

Oh, the reason this movie comes across to me is like so romantic and it does stick to the real story pretty closely, even though Juliet has since said that they didn't have a sexual relationship and that was definitely part of the movie. But what really gets to me about this and what I thought matched with our theme really well

is that it's not just a true crime. It's a true crime about a romantic relationship in a different way. So, it's not purely sexual. It's not purely sexual relationship, but it's still a very deeply romantic relationship. And it's based in the kind of frenzy that a lot of us feel as young women

when we're forming friendships. Some of them are very romantic even again if they never become sexual. So, I think that there is something to be said about the fact that they get together, but then also how they bond is very interesting because this is, again, 1950s Christchurch, New Zealand, all-girls school, they're both kind of precocious

in different ways. And I think that Pauline is a little more insular with her precociousness and Juliet's very outspoken. Which I feel like has to do with class, but that's just me. Completely. Well, because it is a very classist movie. It's a class-based movie.

You know, you've got Juliet and her grand mansion and her, you know, running, swatting around the fields with her long dresses. And then you've got Pauline living in the middle of the city with her family and they run a boarding house to make ends meet. And her dad works as like a fishmonger. So it is very classed as well, for sure.

But there was something about, not just the frenzy. So they kind of bond over this idea or the knowledge that they're both sick. So they're both sitting out in gym class and are asking each other why. And basically Juliet has struggled with tuberculosis. Pauline has struggled with osteomyelitis, which is like a bone sickness.

And one of the best lines in this movie. Oh yeah, I love this one. So we've got, first of all, the actresses are incredible. You've got Melanie Linsky, very young, but like clearly showing some of the incredible range that she has to this day. And this was Kate Winslet's first movie.

She'd done television before this, but never done film. So we've got these kind of ingenues, you know, and they're kind of, so they're bonding over this, this sickness connection that they have. And they're kind of, they're sitting on this bench and Kate Winslet says, after they discover what each of their illnesses are, Kate Winslet says,

all the best people have bad chests and bone diseases. Which is just such an incredible way to think about like drawing power from your biggest flaw. Like that would definitely be on some Instagram quote. That is for sure hilarious to me, that like they bond in this way and then they take off. They're just inseparable from day one. So there's a frenzy to this,

but there's also such an incredible fantasy life. And they're very childlike in this way where their fantasy life with each other is built in, you know, this world where Mario Lanza is serenading them. Mario Lanza. Oh, people. I gotta tell you, like, like it's so funny

because I'm like, it's this weird moment, like where you watch like 40, usually 40s and 50s movies, like pre-rock and roll almost, where you're like, oh, people fucked with Mario Lanza. Like teenagers went crazy for Mario Lanza. There's a lot of rending of garments. Yeah.

Like they're like running around town, like kissing posters of Mario Lanza. And I'm kind of like, damn, that is fucking crazy. He's just a normal dude. Like he just looks like a normal guy. Listen, no disrespect to Mr. Lanza, but like his move, like we play, you know, I've seen a lot of his films in the past.

And it's like a lot of like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, wow, it's a lot. Like if you have to watch more than one in a row, it's a lot. But they loved it. They were sprung. They were sprung on it.

Like running through the woods, tearing their clothes off sprung. And so there is, again, this connection in both of these films to this like, this idea of being possessive of each other, versus being possessed by each other. And there's definitely this moment in Heavenly Creatures that goes from,

you know, we're together, everything is great. We have this, we've created this entire fantasy world together, we can exist outside of the boundaries of what we know, and then they're torn apart and it becomes very quickly goes from I wanna die to I wanna kill. Wow. And that is interesting to me.

Well, okay, so there, the whole idea is that they're just sort of like obsessed with being around each other. And it becomes clear, like there's a part of the film where Kate Winslet's character, because here's the other thing that I found really heartbreaking about the two of them is because they absolutely trauma bonded

because of their sicknesses, right? And Kate Winslet's character in particular, I think because she was rich and had rich parents, they were the types that were like, you're sick, we're gonna send you away to like a tropical environment so you can get over your whatever, and then we'll just leave you there. They kept saying that like, well, we're just gonna,

like it's good for your health, it's good for your health, it's good for your health. And it's like, well, being a negligent parent is not good for my health. So let's start at the foundation of that. And I know that that was a thing a lot more than it is now. I mean, now you can't even imagine that kind of stuff. It's like, but, you know, back in the days

where like you had tuberculosis like that, where they're like, you're going to an asylum and we're leaving you there like until, for months until you get better. So she was like, that fucked her up. She was lonely, she was very lonely. She was lonely and I think that's why, and the two of them being sick like that,

I think is what caused them to over invest in each other. So they get to the point where Kate Winslet's character actually does get TB and essentially needs to recover. And there's this whole chain of events where her father has to walk away from his job and then they get divorced. And basically she's like, you're going to,

like the families that you're moving to South Africa because you need to get for your health, but also we don't want to deal with you. Well, and also by that point, it was very much the parents had stepped in and were like, this friendship is too much. Oh yeah. By that time, the parents were like,

they're lesbians, we need to handle it in the 1950s way that we handle lesbians. Which is like you're going to Africa. Yeah. Like I'm sending this white girl to Africa as how they dealt with her being a lesbian. We will eventually give you electroshock treatment because we think that homosexuality is a disease.

But the parents were kind of the catalyst for the kind of extreme trauma coming to the surface, I think, which is that they were fine when they were together. It was hard for Pauline when Juliet was gone getting this treatment for tuberculosis for a few months, but they still had a friendship. They were writing letters,

they still had their fantasy life. So it was a threat of being permanently dislodged from each other that brought this kind of madness to the surface, more for Pauline than it did for Juliet. Juliet was very upset, but Pauline was instantly just like the way through this is to kill my mom because she's the obstacle here. Right, because the parenting styles,

I feel like are different. Also maybe class-based, but it's that, you know, the Kate Winslet character's parents are like, you can do whatever the fuck you want. In fact, we don't even want to see you work sending you away to other countries. Whereas Melanie Nielinski's parents were like hardcore on and over reward all times, like, you know,

you live in our house. She couldn't even get a passport because they wouldn't sign for it. She was really stuck. So I think that it made sense to me that she would go to this murder place. She felt like the mom was too overbearing and, you know, she was brooding.

I think she was normally, I think in her real life, she was brooding because she said that you saw the real life photographs of her and she looked pissed off. Yeah, it's kind of incredible that the attention to detail in this movie is fantastic because there is a photo of Pauline Parker, a school photo where everyone's kind of, you know,

looking at the camera and smiling in their school uniforms and she is like arms crossed, head down, hair frizz, scowling, like she is not here for any part of it. And they got that so right. And I think, you know, Kate Winslet obviously went on to have this incredibly huge Oscar-winning career, but Melanie Nielinski is incredible in this movie. Pauline's my girl, let's get serious.

I did like a dark haired, frizzy ass, moppy head of hair. And then the photo where she just like, the whole school's looking up, we'll smile and she's like, boom, like look down the ground. And she's like, that's a girl off to my own heart. I was like, that's her. I love it, that's her. And the movie starts that way.

Everyone's singing, you know, closer walk with the, singing their songs and she's just like staring. Oh yeah, she's the goth, she's the goth one for sure. But. I love it, but I think there is something to be said about the fear of, you know, female sexuality in this movie and the fear of, you know, women coming together and young girls, especially people freak out

when young girls figure out their emotional life. And this movie was, again, because it's directed by a dude by Peter Jackson was even more impressive to me for that. I think so too, actually. I mean, not to say that I don't think Peter Jackson is a sensitive person or would understand the nuance of women, but I think that he really nailed it. Like he really figured out a way to communicate

their kind of mutual obsession with each other without making it some weird, like, sexy teen lesbian thing. You know what I mean? I just feel like. Like not another teen lesbian movie style like comedy. Well, you know, it's like a man telling a story of these two women, I think, could certainly go in that direction and pass, but he really did a great job.

And, you know. There's so much tenderness there. And I think that the, because maybe part of it is that the murder is such a small facet of the movie. That it's really about building up the fantasy and it's really about building up what world they were living. And I thought he tapped into that really well. Yeah.

And they were doing this thing where they were kind of like writing this story throughout the film. Like, you know, they were obviously very interested in like writing and literature and history. And then they were kind of like acting out the relationship between their two characters and their story, which is like a man and a woman. And they're kind of like pretending to be the couple.

Yeah. And kind of, you know, working that out for themselves, which I thought was really interesting. It was like OG fan fiction about each other. Yeah. Like they were the actors in their own fan fiction or something. It was kind of amazing. Yeah.

And it was pretty cool. And it's definitely, I don't know. I think as far as true crime goes, we need more true crime movies about women who kill independent of men. Yeah. And we also need more in-depth looks at stuff. I mean, I remember being a teenager and feeling

like I could have committed a murder when I was a teenager. Yeah. I had a, I could have had a list. If any one of the kids in the hall had been like, you should kill that. I'd be like, Dave Bowler, you got it. Yeah. You're so keyed up at that age, you know what I mean?

And it's like, and also too, like, I remember, like, I didn't. So I saw this movie before we were recording. I had seen maybe when I was in college. And it holds up so well. And it's such a, it's such a fucking good movie. And I was like really surprised because I, you know, it's hidden differently now that I'm adult. Exactly.

You know what I mean? I'm like, oh yeah, this is different. Like when I, if I had watched this when I was a kid, I would have been like, oh my God, like this is my life. Nobody can ever tell me what to do. I know. It's like, yeah, of course they did. Of course they did all this stuff.

And, you know, they're not, she's not getting on that ship. Exactly. Like I've got to do something about this. But, you know, now I'm like, I'm just, I appreciate that it is like a glimpse into that type of relationship that beavered, you know, like your friends are everything when you're that age. I mean, any point of connection matters more than any point

of connection matters. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm so glad you picked that movie. That's such a good. I know. I think this was a good, this was a good mix. It's like different types of romance,

different types of obsession and obsessiveness, but like definitely true crime. People I heard doing some crimes. They are doing those true crimes. Leaving some leather gloves, murdering people with a brick. Also, please tell me, what was the caliber of the pantyhose that they had back then that they could put a brick in it? Because if I look at a pair of pantyhose right now,

I get a run. Yeah. I was thinking that too. I was like, that's some hardcore like post World War II pantyhose. And that's some shit. It's like some pure silk and like, I don't know. Didn't come from the eggs.

Did not come. There was no legs, eggs, pantyhose. This was like the hardcore stuff that like they, you know, when the war happens, like they ran out of or something because they make ships out of it or some shit. I don't know. I don't know history, folks. So that's how you're going to have to Google that.

But no matter what. Don't hold me to this pantyhose thing. Spank should be on this tip. Like Spank should be advertising with a brick inside of a pair of side biomin and heartbeat. Exactly. And as always, you know, if you want to talk to us about your favorite, your crime films or any film, really,

you can email us. I saw what you did, pod.atjmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. We will read it. And we will recommend that you do not kill your mother. We will recommend that you don't kill anyone. That's right. So we've got a little time at the end where we'd

like to kind of throw in a third section. It's always going to kind of rotate. So one week, we're going to probably have some audience participation moments. So, you know, for example, if you have questions about movies, if you just have things that you want to talk about, if you want to talk about, you know, Robert Redford's chest hair, by all means, you should email us.

And we'll be reading letters. We'll be taking questions, that kind of thing. Also, if you want to find us on Instagram and Twitter, we're at atisopod. And that's kind of just I, the letter, saw, S-A-W-P-O-D. So what we're going to talk about right now is something that is, like, really. So I have to get back to, like, my mom

was doing the other night and my parents famously have no taste in movies. But my mom has suddenly, like, been watching a lot of horror. You know, my mom's older lady, like, you know, close to 70. And all of a sudden, I come in the room and she's watching It Chapter 2. And I'm like, what are you talking about? She's never seen It 1.

She doesn't even know anything about Stephen King. So I'm a little confused by this. And I just was, like, sitting there thinking, I almost texted you, Danielle, because I was like, what is up with, like, older women getting into horror movies? And it was something that I wanted to ask you, because your grandma is, like, famously into horror. And I was hoping you could, like, tell people about that,

because it's awesome. She is. She's a known maniac. She, I think there is some kind of connection between the frustration women must feel and must have felt throughout the decades and not having outlets for those feelings. So just watching people get merked

kind of became, like, the thing that made them feel good. I have my own theories about that. All the years of being repressed now, they just want to see murders happen. Yeah. They're like, how about you just kill some people so I can relax? Can I see one murder so I can go to bed, please?

But there is something to it. And my grandma, she's told me that she's loved horror films since she was a little kid, and she always loved the Creature from the Black Lagoon and kind of all the old school ones. But it has intensified as she's gotten older. You would think that it would be something that kind of hits a peak.

But my grandma has seen audition. I have not seen audition. Oh, my god. She watches The Walking Dead every Sunday when it's on, like the new seasons are on. She has Walking Dead t-shirts. She has her whole arsenal of movies in her house are all horror films.

And she loves it. And the thing that is the most bizarre is that she laughs her ass off at them. She delights in horror movies. And so I occasionally reach out and kind of ask her some thoughts about that. And we're lucky enough that you recorded some of it. Yeah.

I mean, we still talk about it routinely. And I will occasionally come through with some recordings of my grandma. This one is from a few years ago, where I basically was just having a conversation with her about why horror, why. And why use it as a tool of instruction for children. Why did you raise us with horror movies? Will you play that right now, please?

Yes, let's listen to my grandma's input on these films. Do you remember making me watch Halloween? Yeah, that was good. It was not good. It was scary. And I used to tell you kids, this is just a movie. You think I understood that? Well, that was five years ago.

I don't care if I was going to watch it. You are going to watch it. And you all were terrified. Yeah, you were. You are cracking up right now, saying how terrified we were as kids to watch horror movies. My kids grew up on that Bobby today. He loves those things.

Wait, you're telling me that having kids watch horror movies is a great tool of parenting? It certainly is. It'll make them think first about doing a lot of things they want to do because they think of that picture. What's in it? Yeah, that makes you think about walking in the woods, going home by yourself.

Did your mama tell you to walk in those woods? No, get the hell out of those woods. I can't believe you think that having kids watch horror movies is a good tool of training. It certainly is. It'll make you think. Oh, my god, grab it. Is that wrong with you?

It's just like those horror movies that show memories, crazy men, women running. They always show women jogging by themselves in the park or past. Past and you don't know who's standing here or that. That's why so many, it's a shame. It's a damn shame. It's your body.

Nobody should touch you for you and who you want. You understand? But right now, when you read about in the paper, some woman got raped here or there. What the hell is wrong with her? Look at the horror movie. I bet you carry a knife with her. Everywhere you go, carry a little secret knife right there.

And it's on the cutting stone. Taking something that's yours. No, I'm telling you, sometimes it helps. But the thing is, women shouldn't feel that they have to run with knives. We should be teaching men that they shouldn't rape people. I don't care. That's not the world today.

What you think they should do or shouldn't do. That's not the world today. Carry a knife, cut his throat. Let him think about being cut up before he even put his hands on you. I'm not kidding. Grab a knife, cut his throat. I mean, it's like, that needs to be on a t-shirt,

just in general. Get our first t-shirt. I love your grandma. I was raised by her. Let's just make sure that that is part of the conversation. This is the person who raised me. And this is the advice she gave me regularly. I mean, you can't ask for anything better than that, truly.

You truly can't. I mean, it's like she's like, I love that she's just so emphatic about her beliefs and not taking any shit. And she's not wrong. She's not wrong. She raised, she wanted to raise the kind of woman who would take no shit and would not be fearful in this world.

And she succeeded in that. But she did it in the weirdest fucking way possible. Thank you, Daniel's grandma, for making Daniel. But promise me you have more clips and that will do this every so often. And you'll have other grandma's nuggets of wisdom to bring, horror-wise or not. I just want to hear her more.

So I definitely have some recordings. And I will continue to record her with her permission. But yeah, she comes up with this stuff all day, every day. Last week, she was telling us that she wanted a space timing with my brother. And she told us she wanted a full sleep tattoo. So it just never ends. It never ends.

And I will catch as much of it as possible. Maybe we all try to get on your grandma's level. Email address is, I saw what you did pod at gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter and Instagram at isawpod. So that's I-S-A-W-P-O-D. And then next week, we're going to, why don't we, let's give them the movies and let them guess the themes. You can tweet at us or Instagram or what have you.

But we'll give you the movies and then you guess what the theme is going to be. Me without you from 2001 and walking and talking from 1996. What's our theme? What's our theme? What's our theme? Go ahead and guess. Go ahead and guess.

Excellent. This has been an exactly right production. Our producer is Lauren Elizabeth Brown. Our engineer is Katie Levine. Our social media assistant is Terran Matzah. Our theme songs by Tom Brie Fogel. Artwork by Garrett Ross. Our executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen

Cogareth, and Danielle Cramer. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at isawpod. And please listen, subscribe, or leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you listen.