My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 16: Blood Murder Sixteen Magic

Episode Date: October 23, 2024

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 16 – Blood Murder Sixteen Magic – where Karen covered the murder of Chandra Levy and Georgia detailed the murder of Sylvia Likens. Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode!   Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder   Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes/rewind-with-karen-georgia-episode-16-blood-murder-sixteen-magic My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories, and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And welcome. To Rewind with Karen and Georgia. It's our new Wednesday episode where we revisit our original episodes and kind of give you a personal recap on what we were doing and what we were thinking and how much it's all changed since 2016. It's a lot, turns out. And today we're revisiting episode 16 called, we're sticking with this, Blood Murder 16 Magic.

And this came out on Friday the 13th of May in 2016. That's lucky. I know. There's a lot of witchy elements taking place here. So go into the street and grab the biggest Red Hot Chili Peppers fan you can find to listen along with us right now because we can all be day one listeners. Okay. to listen along with us right now because we can all be day one listeners. Okay, let's listen to how we chose to start episode 16. We're recording.

Jesus Christ. Hey. Hi. Hi, Karen. Hi, Georgia. How are you? Don't worry about it. Ladies and gentlemen, it's my favorite murder. I'm Karen Kilgareth.

I'm Georgia Hartstark. And we're here to talk to you about murders. Hey you guys, we only talk about murder. We're murder nerds. Turns out a lot of you like to talk about murder. Turns out it's not that rare or weird. No, I think it's just that other people don't live in big cities where everyone talks about, you know, there's more people that you've talked about murder with. I think a lot of people are like the only person they know that likes murder. Yeah, you can't go to your mom with this shit. She's going to shake her finger at you no matter what. Yeah. And your husband's going to get scared of you. Yeah. He's going to be like, holy shit, I married that. Your coworkers are going to be like something's wrong with

her. She's going to kill me in the bathroom. I feel like, why are you that into it? Coworkers are always that girl. Oh, fuck yeah. Did you take my yogurt? I'll murder you. I will murder you. I don't think that's interesting because my brother's best friend got murdered when he

was... I think that's actually really mean to like death. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's perfect then. That means I's actually really mean to like death. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's perfect then. That means I never have to talk to you again. That's how I've negotiated my life personally. I tested out.

Scaring away. Do your eyes go wide? Oh, then I've now weeded out the week. Goodbye. Do you frill your brow or jump up and down and clap and say, I love murder? That's how you pick your team. Totally. Yep.

That's how we found each other. Did you already know that Kara Klink loves murder? I think she told me recently. She loves it too. Oh yeah, she texted me and was like, I have a murder story I want to tell. I have hers. You have it. And it's, that's- Oh yeah, she texted me and was like, I have a murder story I want to tell. I have hers. You have it? And it's amazing.

We're playing it. Do you know that there's like, I've had a, the best, the best compliment is when someone you know, kind of from like your world writes to you and it's like, I love your podcast. And you're like, I didn't even know you listened to it. Yes. I have a few friends who are like acquaintances who've done that. And they're like, I have a story I want to tell you and I'm like, it should be on the podcast. Yes, I love it. Yeah, because I've had the same experience and I kind of want to go like,

it's so nice that you would even, the second I see somebody talking about their podcast, I'm like, turn off brain. I never such a... Meanwhile, I have the goal to have two. Right. Look at us. I mean, we're just... Are we allowed? Because there's so many other things I'm interested in. Can we... Let's do one more together about something totally different. A different podcast? Would it have the same passion though? No.

Like what? Do we have another thing in common? No. That's what it is. I'll see myself out. You know what it is? We could talk about vintage clothes. Do you like vintage clothes? Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. In two months, we can talk about it a lot. Does anyone want to hear about fucking shopping in clothes?

Nope. There's a reason. What are you going to do? Describe them? Yeah. It has pockets and buttons. No. Shapping in clothes. Nope. There's a reason. What are you going to do? Describe them? Yeah. It had pockets and buttons. I kind of look like that one scene from Grease where they were at the dance.

This is why, because there's only so many vintage clothes, but there's just an infinite amount of murders. Yeah. Because everyone's murdering. God. Guys, we just did the Cracked.com podcast. Yeah. Which was so awesome. So much fun. When does that come out?

Shit. He told me and I don't remember. Jack, do you remember Jack's last name? Nope. God, we're the worst. We are so self-centered. Today's a little bit of a lazy Wednesday. Yeah. We hung out last night and went to a drag show. Oh my God, Jackie B. That was a great show. It was so hilarious and

We told your friends about why did we start telling them that we had a murder podcast who your two friends? Oh, I don't know because when people like what are you up to like? Oh, yeah I don't know what to say. Yes, because everything sounds like bragging. Well, what am I up to? I don't know like this thing and it's not that great, but it sounds great. So I just don't know how to answer that question. Yeah, saying you have a podcast is good because it definitely does not sound like a brag. No, because it's just like outing yourself as a fucking geek. Self-indulgent and weirdo. So yeah, and that's also a nice way to test the waters. Like, are you interested in this

or no? Yeah. And I think everyone is. I think so. Well, because that's what we were talking about last night is everyone watches 2020 and 48 hours. Like, that's the reason they're popular shows. And even people who don't, like Vince wouldn't put it on, but when it's on, he's like dialed in. Yeah, because it's some good young storytelling. It is.

He's like dialed in. Yeah, because it's good. Some good young storytelling. It is. So this was from we had someone talk on the Twitter feed, which made me really happy. And of course, made me laugh again. Anytime people are tweet, tweet in Yakuza, tweet in any of the stuff that we can't remember while we're talking. We love it. We love that. We would drive you crazy with not knowing. Sorry. It's just who we are. But it was, if I can't find this, it'll be the worst. Sorry. Now I'm going to be doing reading talking where it sounds like I'm not paying attention.

It's okay. I'll talk over you. Go to My Fav Murder on Twitter. That's our Twitter account. Follow us there. Of course, you guys already know about the Facebook page. We have almost 5,000 people in that freaking page. And it's like when I can't sleep at night, I just scroll through it and read all the articles where people are putting out. It's so good. I do the exact same thing. And pretty soon we're going to have t-shirts. Like in the next week, you're going to be able to pre-order your shirt. So good.

Which is so exciting. Did you find it? Yep. Oh, good. No, no, I didn't. But I know I'm close because I remember these. It was just a woman who said that she had to look up when I was talking about the, oh, suppressive persons respond. Oh, yeah. That we could not think of that phrase when we were talking about Scientology. But lots of people could think of it and told us, which we love, that there was a woman who looked up the thing

that I called like ground hypnosis. I completely made up the title for it. It sounded great. It's for when pilots are in the sky, they can't look at the ground because they'll just instinctually just drive the plane into the ground. And she said what it was called. Yep. I can't find it. God damn it. Can we really? Sorry. If you Yep. I can't find it. God damn it. Can we really? Sorry.

If you want, unless you can find it. This is my challenge to find it in five seconds. Five, four, three, two. It's like, I just retweeted it, I thought. Maybe. But maybe. I've been secretly going in and deleting thought. But maybe. But maybe. I've been secretly going in and deleting tweets that you... Just for fun. Just for fun. Here's a quote from us. I love when people quote us.

I know. Because I'm self-centered. It's a powerful feeling. Here's the thing I know about skateboarders. They're massively chill. They don't murder families," said Karen. I love it. Someone said, quote, worst case scenario, he eats the baby. Oh, that was you. That was me. That was you, that you would never let Albert Fish babysit your kid.

Right. By the time you're old, you're either completely evil or an American hero. Oh, no, wait, impressive persons. Someone said, you said, you're in a cult. Call your dad. That's when I was just letting Scientologists know how it is. Oh my gosh, it's the best. Fuck it, I can't find this. That's okay. Let me see another quote. How about, Shelley Miskovich is missing as fuck. Missing as fuck, girl. That is a good one.

I love that I talk like that. My mom would hate it. Oh my god, my father. The amount of F's and S's that I say on this podcast, my father would be limit. of F's and S's that I say on this podcast, my father would be livid. Oh, do you want to talk about our new favorite show? Sure. The Affair. No, you mean the family? That's what I meant.

I hate The Affair. The Affair is a bore, right? It's a trash heap. It's not even a bore, right? It's a trash heap. It's not even a bore. It's like, it makes me angry how just vapid and stupid every single person is on it. And I don't care about you guys. And I, you fucking deserve each other. You have to go on. I think they're from a while back, but John Levenstein on Twitter was doing like basically live tweeting the affair. And it was literally like, will he

finish his book? We just don't know. Like he was pretending that this plot lines were exciting. And it was really hilarious. Oh, I just want to kick them all on the vaginas. Yeah, I didn't I didn't watch it because I don't care if people have affairs or not. It's I feel it's none of my business. But yes, the family. Oh my gosh. Someone on the Facebook group was like in a comment was like, has anyone watched the Family? And I need a new binge watch show. So I was like, I'll check this out. Joan Allen? Yeah.

The guy from Friday Night Lights that's super cute. Yeah. And like- And like Sorenton? Who's the cute? Oh, that's, oh, that's what he's from. The big brother is from Friday Night Lights. Yes. I was wondering, I couldn't place him. Gosh, he's cute.

He's the super cute guy that dated the coach's daughter. Yeah. Oh, and he like ran away and shit. Yes, he is very cute. He's beautiful. He's so weirdly beautiful. He's like plain and beautiful at the same time. And he's got that like skater, like bad boy look to him. Yeah. Like you want to fix him.

Yes. In this, but that's how good of an actor is because in Friday Night Lights, he was like the little abandoned boy that was being raised by his grandma and trying to be a good football player, which was like heartbreaking. You want to take care of this fuck. Yeah, because he's got those big eyes. Oh my God. So here's the plot, which is like my dream plot of anything ever is a kid goes missing at eight, fucking I love kidnappings, come 10 years later, comes home.

Stephen Stainer. Who's, what's he from? Stephen Stainer, that's the real life thing that really happened. Right. I'm, these are my theories. I'll just shout out what I think they're basing it on. Okay, because there's, it's a lot of like true to life shit. Yeah.

The kid comes back. Is it really the kid or is it not the kid? Where has he been? That's the documentary, The Imposter. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Does someone know something? Does someone not know something? There's like suspicions. That's the documentary, The Imposter. Yes, exactly. Does someone know something? Does someone not know something? There's like suspicions. That's the podcast, Does Someone Know Something? Sorry. Is the cop fucking the dad? Yes. That's not a spoiler, because

you find that out immediately. Yeah. It's so great. And what I love about it is that the biggest bombshell in the show doesn't happen until like a few episodes in What's a sister? Oh My god, no, they keep they just keep I think they did a great job of like understanding that these days people need more than just one like storyline like that and folding in things that are fascinating and one storyline like that and folding in things that are fascinating and possibilities. They've basically made it the most dramatic possible show. Because then you want to go back and be like, I watched it from an angle of thinking this

was happening and the whole time I didn't know this other thing was happening. So I want to go back, you'll understand when you watch it, I want to go back and see everyone's reaction now that I know they know what's going on. And the flashbacks are great. It's all these like present day, 10 years ago, like who got kidnapped? Oh my God, Andrew McCarthy. Oh my God. He plays like the town rapist creep who gets exonerated when the kid comes home because he got tried and convicted for the murder of this kid. And he is the best creep. And went to jail as a child molester murderer, which is bad news.

But he is into kids, you know what I mean? Yeah. He's got some problems. He is such a good creep. Yeah, he really is. He's got kooky eyes. Yeah. I'm happy to see him back in the acting world. He directed an episode. The flashbacks are incredible. And there's nothing I love more than a secret buried room in the woods. Oh yeah. What would you do in there? How would you get out? Yeah, and how crazy would you go and how terrible. Okay, here's my problem with it. The police

officer doesn't know how to police. The lady? Yeah. She is the worst. She should have been immediately fired after he gets exonerated. A. Yes. Everyone finds out he's fucking the dad. Immediately taken off the case. And you're still on the case. Like so much of the cop shit is such bullshit. She shoots someone who's unarmed. Nothing happens. Yeah. But that actress played daughter Maitland in Boardwalk Empire and she was so incredible. I'm always like, I know that face from somewhere.

Yeah, that's what she is. I had to look her up because I was like, I know who that is. She had credit with me and I didn't know why. And then I looked it up and I was like, it's fucking daughter. I was like, this must be her first role. I've never seen, you know, shit. I just hate it.

I love it all. It's great. But I have the same problem with this that I did with the killing. I don't give a fuck if people are running for office. I don't want to know about their stresses. I think it's the most boring thing possible. It makes me crazy. So it's like, we've got the big speech tonight. There's nothing more boring than running for office.

And my thing is too, like, you guys are wealthy. Just stay home and chill. Like in my life. Yeah, don't power through it by continuing to run for like state senate. Stay home with your, like if I were the mom and my kid came home 10 years later, I'd be like, we are fucking staying home home together for at least a week, at least a week and bonding. Yeah. Also we're already rich. Who wants to be fucking mayor? I mean, ridiculous. Don't you know about like cooking and hanging out at home and like being a good

parent and like, or that if you go through a major life trauma, you are allowed to stop doing the thing that you're doing for an indeterminate amount of time so that you don't have a nervous breakdown. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I get it. There's a couple flaws.

But overall, it's very entertaining. The cop part is so huge for me that I almost can't. I almost can't. But the sister is played by Allison Hill, who is one of the greatest actresses. What is she from? She, well, Scott Pilgrim. She was she from? She, well, Scott Pilgrim. She was the girl who was the drummer in Scott Pilgrim. Yes, she was great in that.

But she was on an episode, what was that? In Treatment? Did you ever see that show? Oh yeah, I never got past the first episode, but I know it was supposed to be great. Gabriel Byrne, her episode of it is so good that I was like, Oh my God, this actress is so good. And then I just started seeing her in a bunch of stuff. I need to go back and watch it. And the little girl who plays her in the flashbacks, the two of them, I mean, you know, when you see flashbacks, you're like, come on, or there

you're like, they hired her because she looks like her, but she's a terrible actress. It's like one of the two. This girl's great. She's great. And she looks like her. Well, and also I feel like because Joan Allen plays the mother and I feel like Joan Allen is probably in a position where she got to call at least a couple of the shots in this situation of how the show was set up. You get Matt Sorensen, you get Alison Pill, you get that British actor who's in everything in England and is now on this show. Which one is he?

He was on... I don't know, but which one is he in the show? Oh, the dad. I knew he had an accent. Yes. That was bothering me because it was coming out a little bit. And I was like, well, fine. He can be from England when he was a kid, but for some reason it's like, that bothers

me. Well, you know, they always give British actors credit because they're so much better than American actors on the whole. But oftentimes, you have to have a good ear to be able to do a convincing American accent. And I think most people are like, of course he can do it. And then they're just like, well, every once in a while, they'll drop an R or do a weird thing. And then you get pulled out of it. I do. But then I'm like, well, he can have been from Germany or from fucking England

or from like Australia. And it does like, I know I need to just get out of my head. Yeah. But it does take you out of it. I just love that guy because he has been working consistently for easily 30 years. He's in everything in England. Wow. That's awesome. For all my BBC obsessive television watching, he's just like, oh, he's in every other thing. Okay, we're back from the past. And this one is so interesting to me because this is a turning point for us, this episode. Because we mentioned that we were on the Cracked podcast, the Cracked.com live podcast with Jack O'Brien.

Yeah. And that is where people found us for the first time. That's right. Yeah. This is like the moment when suddenly it was, oh shit, what the fuck? Because of Cracked.com podcast. Yeah, that's right. Jack O'Brien's having us on his podcast

was truly a next level kind of like, you're coming up here now thing. Jack O'Brien is one of the loveliest human beings. We saw him at the iHeartRadio awards. But anyway, it was nice to see him full circle like that. Yeah, so I don't know, to me,, this kind of just gives me chills a little bit because it's like, all right, buckle the fuck up, Karen and Georgia. You guys have no idea what's about to fucking happen. We don't know what's going on. We're just delighted that the Facebook

group has 5,000 people and people are starting to learn how to do memes personalized to the show. That's right. I love it. And there were some really good ones. Yeah. This was like the start of like, oh, we could take these quotes that other people are telling us we say, turn it into merch. It's just like, which is always where my brain is, of course. Yeah. Start a third and fourth business. Why not? It's a good idea. Out of my personal bank account. That's a great idea for tax purposes.

Yeah, just keep a little running notepad. We'll be fine. And we were, ladies and gentlemen. We were. We actually were. All right, well, let's listen to Karen's story from episode 15. This is like one of those classic ones that you look back on and you're like,

how did it turn out this way? It kind of reminds me of Lacey Peterson in that way where it's like, oh, everything was handled wrong. And the media- And the world was watching. Right. And the media and public are partly to blame for that. But so are the police who mishandled it.

Every angle and step, it was a very flawed time, I think. And we've talked about this a lot. It's the media we cut our teeth on. Right. It's the insensitive kind of salacious news media, I would say. Victim blaming. That built that. Yeah. So we are kind of like, later on when you look back, you're like, oh, no wonder we have these blind spots. All right. Well, here's Karen covering the murder of Chandra Levy.

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and learn how to create the best retail experiences without complexity. That's Shopify.com slash murder all lowercase and learn how to create the best retail experiences without complexity. That's shopify.com slash murder. Happy shopping. Goodbye. Is it me first? I think so. What's our theme this week, Karen? The theme is let's not do themes anymore because they paint us into a corner and make us do it all wrong. I think when we don't have an idea of what we want to do, like let's for the next couple ones, not do a theme. Let's play fast and loose. Yeah. And then

like if I have one that I want to talk about and you don't have one, I can be like, okay, well here's the theme that will work with this. But we could also go into a realm at some point where we assign each other. Ooh, I like that. I like an assignment. I wish you guys could have seen her face. She genuinely liked that idea. I lit up. You already have very big eyes and they just went like three times bigger. Ooh. Am I scary?

Ooh, werewolves in London. Is that your murder? Yep. Those London werewolf murders. No, mine is, and interestingly enough, happened in the year 2000. Every single murder from now on for you was going to have happened in the year 2000. Shipmen didn't really serve the purpose it was supposed to, so now it's all going to be make up work. That's actually how my whole life is. I fuck up something and then I'm

constantly making up for it long past the time when anyone's interested putting more Putting more effort into it than you would have had to if you had just done it the first correctly I got it first time I got that. Yeah always guys Hi this week my favorite murder is the murder of a young woman named Chandra Levy Hey This was crazy. I also... Whips and turns crazy.

And this is a, I find this is a fascinating, I just talked total shit about no one cares about when you're running for office. And this is all about like politics stuff. But it's the part that I actually believe. You can cut straight to if you think a congressman has murdered somebody because I'll believe you. Oh, always. Yeah. So I don't want to know. I think everyone will. Yeah, right. Because talk about power hungry sociopaths. Well, that's the thing is like, that's the thing of they want it to be someone crazy and huge. They don't want

it to be some fucking dipshit. Yeah, doesn't just Whose life isn't worth half of this girl's life. Right. They want it to be some powerful, maybe there's like the government behind it. Dark. Right. Something dark. She found out a government secret. Then they had to kick. Yeah. It could just go super crazy. And I remembered, because I had a lot, you know, a lot of big ideas and judgments and what I actually thought. And even in remembering it before I did the looked anything up was like, okay, I think he really did it. And they just couldn't pin it on him. And then I remembered there's a movie called Absolute Power. It's a Clint Eastwood movie from 1997 with Gene Hackman. Do you remember this? Where he is a cat burglar. He's like a jewelry thief. And he goes to rob this apartment and he finds a safe room

that has a one-way mirror and he's in there stealing diamonds and then the people come back so he has to shut the door and hide. And he witnesses the president murdering his mistress. That's cool. Then while he is trying to figure out a way to expose it, the president's whole team, including Judy Davis, and the guy that always plays, that played the president on 24, Dennis, doesn't matter. You're the one who remembers it. You don't remember it? You're fucked.

So basically, they go about covering it all up. And it just makes it so believable when they start pulling people that could be accused of it, the way that they will do it to clean up a massive thing like that. Here's my problem with that though. If you have a safe room in your house, you probably also have an alarm system set up. So how do you even get into the first place? Oh, I think there's a scene where he's like undoing the alarm system. Okay. And then it's Clint Eastwood whispering to himself in a gravelly voice. So that's what was in my mind. And that was three years before this even happened. So in October of 2000, Chandra Levy, who was originally from Modesto, California, who went

to San Francisco State, she was a Bay Area girl. Which means you're going to get fucking murdered. That's right. That's how we do it. She had a degree in journalism from San Francisco State and she went to USC to get her master's in public administration. So in October of 2000, she went to DC to become a paid intern for the Federal Bureau of Prisons, a thing I didn't know existed until just today.

I immediately assumed it was the FBI and kept moving until later on they brought it up again. Then I was like, oh shit, that changes it. Yeah, corporation money. Bureau of prisons. How much money do you people make? Jesus. So her internship was abruptly terminated in April of 2001 because her academic eligibility was expired in December 2000. So since she'd already completed her master's degree requirements, so she was planning on

going back to California in May 2001 for her graduation at USC. So on May 6th of 2001, Chandra Levy's parents called the DC police and say, we can't get ahold of our daughter. She hasn't called us and we can't contact her for five days. And that's completely not normal. And we need your help. So they flew out to DC. And they start talking to the police and interviews with the police, her father tells them that she's been having an affair with a congressman. How does he know that?

I guess she told her parents. So which I think is kind of good. It made me happy that they knew about her life. At least she told her best friend and the best friend was like when she was missing or something. Yeah, maybe said, this is what I think you guys need to know. You guys never keep secrets because then they can't find out who murdered you. Yeah, that's right.

But then again, don't keep a diary. There's a lot of conflicting messages on this podcast. You have to stay with us. Keep a Word document if you need to. The truth will be revealed eventually. We have a plan. Yeah, there's a long-term five-year plan for this podcast. So, Chandra Levy's mother, I mean, father tells the cops, you need to look at Congressman Gary Condon because they've been

having an affair. So on May 10th, the police get a warrant to search her apartment and they find her purse with her ID or credit cards, all her good stuff, two suitcases that are half-packed. Her answering machine's full. There were two messages from Gary Condit on the answering machine. And when a police sergeant tried to examine her laptop, he inadvertently corrupted the internet search data as he was not a trained technician. You fucking idiot. I bet he got in trouble like she should have on the family. I hope he got in trouble because it took them a month to fix it. It was the year 2000. So

they finally are able to access what her last searches were on that computer. And it was on May 1st. And it was for Amtrak, Southwest Airlines, Baskin-Robbins, Gary Condit, a weather report. And then the very last one was at 1224 for the Pierce Klingle Mansion, which is the park office building for Rock Creek Park. So basically another month goes by. So this is two and a half months now from when she's reported missing, they finally searched this park. Wow. Which is by her house?

I think it was, they said within four miles, 30 cops searched the park and they don't find anything. And then they searched it again like a couple of weeks later and they don't find anything again. They go to talk to Gary Condon. He denies any knowledge of knowing what happened to her. And the Levy family is now talking to the Prost themselves. This is how it always goes. I remember when this ship broke and it was like, fucking heavy. It was crazy. And the Levy family tells the press they think that Gary Condit has something to do with her disappearance. So now it's on like Donkey Kong, because we've got a seat of congressmen.

Is that what you say? They're seated? Sure. Like an in place, working congressman who's having an affair. He's married. This girl is in her early twenties and an unpaid intern or no, paid intern, sorry. A paid intern that he's having an affair with. Not the only woman he's having an affair with as is later revealed. Powerful, hungry men. So this is the kind of story that at the time, this was pre-9-11, obviously, this is pre-24 hour news cycle. So this was back when, you know, CNN was its own cable channel, but they would be like,

horse rescued out of a ravine. You know, this plane crash only two p... It was a biplane only two p... It was like that kind of stuff. And then when big stuff like this hit, it would go all day and night. So it was different than it is now that people are used to. It would just be like, here we are, all the alarm bells are ringing. So the DC police chief announced on May 22, 2002. So this is, oh sorry, I was just going to say, in July 2001, Fox News opinion poll of 900 people, 44% said they believed that Gary Condon had something to do with Chandra Levy's disappearance. Based on no evidence, right? Based on nothing. And 51% of people said that they thought he acted guilty. And I think this also had something to do with the fact that, you know, the story broke

probably at the end of May, beginning of June. This is a whole month and nothing's happened. So now you're just letting people stew and simmer and speculate. And watch the same fucking news over and over and over. The same coverage, the same, these beautiful photos of her and this, you know, this fucked up Senator. Yeah. And like, and just, the people want answers, they want something.

Totally. So on May 22nd, 2002, the police chief announces that skeletal remains matching Levy's dental records have been discovered by a man walking his dog and looking for turtles in Rock Creek Park. So two years later. Yes. Two years later to the month. I want to see a picture of the man who was looking for turtles.

I mean, immediately guilty. Is he guilty or is he a big man child that had his whole life ruined because he stumbled upon a dead body? Great question. And it was down a hillside in like a ravine. So detectives found bones and personal items scattered but not buried in a forested area along a steep incline, including sports bra, sweatshirt, leggings, tennis shoes. Man, bitch was going for, not bitch, chick was going for a fucking jog.

In the afternoon. Yep, daylight. Yeah. So on June 6th, after the police completed their search, private investigators hired by the Levy's found her shin bone with some twisted wire, um, about 25 yards from the other remains. Wow. So there's fucking major evidence that is right nearby that these cops do not find. Wow.

And after two sweeps of the park. Yes. I want to see the spot like off of the trail where she was found. You know what I mean? Like, is that a busy trail? Is it not? I mean, and then logic of when people get rid of bodies is they throw them downhill. They're not going to carry them uphill. So you need to look down every hill. Yes. Well, there's all kinds. I mean, and also nowadays they do it and you see it all the time, where if there is a body, they have then like taped off, you know, 500 yards around

the outside. The idea that it's 25 yards away and that's just like, oh, oh well. Well, that just shows that a person isn't, you know, because someone who is experienced in finding human remains would know that animals would have scattered the bones. Yes. After two years. And those bones do matter. It's not like it's like, well, it's a shin bone. It doesn't matter because it had wire around it. You can find out where the wire came from. Oh, no, it totally mattered because the police chief was quoted as saying, it's unacceptable that these items were not located.

Which is like, well, that's all well and good, but now we're after the fact where those PIs weren't hired, which is another thing that points to that thing of like, you got to be rich to get any justice in this country because if there weren't hired private investigators, that would have never been found. So the DC police claimed that they would have never been found. So the DC police claimed that they would have discovered Levy's body earlier if not for a miscommunication regarding the scope of the search. Commanders had ordered the search within a hundred yards of each road and trail, but searches

were focused within a hundred yards of roads only, resulting in the body remaining undiscovered for a long period of time. Makes no fucking sense. You're searching a park, you clearly check trails. That's what people walk on in parks. It doesn't even make sense. And also the fact, I mean, this clearly is just totally mishandled because at this point, like you've, you let somebody touch a computer that clearly will have vital information on it, that puts you behind a month, and then you do a search where you basically kick some leaves around the park and go home. And you're like, no, sorry.

And in the meantime, this dude's entire career is over and like, ruined. Yep. Did he sue? Okay, tell me more about it. Well, the other thing too is that there are theories that the body got dumped after the police searched. So she may not have been there the first time around, but it seems doubtful if they didn't even search off of trails. It didn't seem thorough or like they even kind of knew what to do. Anyway, so in the autopsy, the coroner found damage to her hyoid bone, which is the U-shaped bone in the back of your neck that supports your tongue. I'd never even heard of that before, which suggests

strangulation. Okay. I know there's that little bone. Yeah. If that's damaged, it's like you've been squeezed, but there's no conclusive evidence because the body was outside for two years. So of course then in September 2001, DC police and federal prosecutors contacted by the lawyer of an informant in a jail saying that they know who Levi's killer is. And he says, a man named a 20 year old illegal immigrant from El Salvador named Ingmar Gwandik, I'll just say that's how you pronounce his last name, who he shared a cell with told him Condit paid him $25,000 to kill Levi. Whoa. So the investigators ruled the story out because Gwandik was in jail because he'd admitted to assaulting two women in Rock Creek Park. What?

Uh-huh. So- Wait, they ruled him out? Okay. No, they ruled out Gary Condit paying this guy. Okay. Because they'd already had Gwandik in jail because he'd already attacked two women with knives and raped them in that park. That sounds like a pattern. It seems patterny to me. So it turned out that Gwandik had failed to show up for work on the day of Levi's

disappearance, and his former landlady recalled his face appeared scratched and bruised at the time. So, Gwandik took a polygraph, failed, but he didn't speak English, and the person administering the polygraph didn't speak Spanish. So, question mark. And this was the only story in the news and then 9-11 happened. And Gary Condit was like, thank you, Jesus. Everything's going my way finally. Wouldn't it have been great if they had, if, I mean, if a 9-11 hadn't happened.

Yeah. You know what? Now that you bring it up, it would have been great. Yeah. But then also if Gary Condit had had a chance for the big story to be that he didn't do it, he would be a fucking, well, he would still have been fucking 20 year old girls. True. But you know, you don't go to jail for that. No, but you're still a sleazeball. I mean, he's a fucking politician. Yeah. So basically this, it became a cold case for years. Of course, Gary Condit lost his reelection and left office at the end of his term on January 3rd, 2003. So in 2005, our buddy, investigative journalist, Dominic Dunn, was on Larry King and he said he believed Gary Condit knew more information about the case than he'd been disclosing.

Dun-dun-dun. Dun-dun-dun. Dun Dun Dun. Dun Dun Dun. Sorry, I had to do that. Dominic Dunn. I love it. So Gary Condit filed two lawsuits against Dominic Dunn, forcing him into an undisclosed financial settlement for one, and the other one, which was a slander case, was eventually dismissed because, quote, the context in which Dunn's statements were made demonstrates that

they were part of a discussion about speculation in the media and inaccurate media coverage. So they were actually talking about the case itself and how that happens, how things become witch hunts. That makes sense. The media were criticized for their rush to judgment on this case, and sometimes blatantly suggesting that Condit was guilty of murder. There were reporters that were camped out in front of his Washington apartment who were quoted as saying that they would stay there until he resigned. So it was a legit witch hunt against him.

That politician thing, like the fact that people like I hope for both of us and never in our lives, do we have the experience of having reporters camped outside of our fucking house. Dude. Negative or positive. Well, and also because they can just take any little seed of anything or one person walking by and going, oh, I knew her. I mean, anything could spin in any direction. They could go through your trash and find like a thing that points to this thing as

evidence. Sure. Yeah, it's crazy. And there was, in the summer of 2008, the Washington Post ran a 13 part series. I didn't read it. I can't read. It's an unlucky amount of parts. Which was, quote, a tale of tabloid and mainstream press pack journalism that helped derail this investigation. So it was basically all about that, how it just was totally tried in the media. And meanwhile, the cops were kind of like, didn't know necessarily what to do or what was going on and didn't have a lot to go on. Well, they probably followed along the media as well. And so it misled them.

For sure. They got a suede. Newsweek magazine stated that the media may have become more skeptical of herd mentality and open to alternative suspects after the Levy case happened. Basically that changed the way people reported and reacted, like journalism reacted to cases. In a positive way or a bad way? I think in a positive way of just being aware that that's what they would do for the story.

That you're affecting the actual outcome and the person is going to get caught. That they basically were like, oh, they were having an affair and implying that he killed her. Right. So anyway, it was a cold case until 2006. And then there was a new DC police chief, a woman named Kathy Lanier, I'm assuming is how you pronounce it. And she replaced the lead detective on the case with three veteran investigators who had homicide experience.

Yeah. So who did you assign? Who did that original guy assign in the first place. What are you doing? Also, it made me, reading that made me go, did Gary Condit have some kind of power over that first group of guys to be like, how about you don't, how about you're not very accurate in your investigation of this? I mean, it's just a possibility. Well, this is, I want to hear who you think did it because that if he didn't, then why would he do that? Go on.

So here we go. I'll try to plow through this. No, no, no. So in 2007, the editors of the Washington Post assigned a new team of reporters to reexamine the case. And there was a series of articles published in the summer of 2008 that focused on the failure of the police to fully investigate Guadeneke's connection to the attacks in Rock Creek Park.

So they had basically just seen that that guy had done that. When it turned out that that guy's story was this guy did it and Gary Conda paid him to do it and that turned out to be a lie, they were like, all right, well, I guess we have no one. Yeah. Instead of, oh, the guy that's attacking women and raping women in Rock Creek Park, they don't look at him. That's insane. So in September 2008, which I love this because the investigators, it's like, so journalists

are the one pushing this forward. They're fucking up, but they're also making good at the same time to different people. Investigators searched Guadalajara's federal prison cell in California and they found a photo of Chandra Levy that he had saved from a magazine. So they finally arrested him in March of 2009. And he was indicted by a grand jury for kidnapping, first degree murder committed during a kidnapping, attempted first degree sexual abuse, first degree murder committed during sexual offense, attempted robbery, first degree murder committed during a kidnapping, attempted first degree sexual abuse, first degree murder committed during sexual offense, attempted robbery, first degree murder committed during a robbery. And he pled not guilty to everything.

In the trial, Chandra Levy's father testified that he intentionally pointed the investigators to Gary Condit. He said that he told authorities during the early years of the investigation his daughter would have been too cautious to jog in the woods alone, but he said that he no longer believed that to be true. So the father like sick him. He like fucking... Pointed the finger. Wow. And kind of by his own admission, but see here's the thing. So it's his own admission that he kind

of saying he misled the cops. But at the same, so here's the whole paragraph on it. He said he also told police that his daughter and condit had a five-year plan between them to get married. In retrospect, Robert Levy admitted, I just said whatever came to mind just to point to him as the villain. Levy added that he had been convinced the condit was guilty until we learned about this character here. Yeah. Referring to Guadalupe. I mean, that makes sense because like, if you're like, if you know that your best friend's boyfriend was a feckin abusive, whatever, and she now turns up dead, you can say something

like well, once she told me she was afraid that he was going to kill her. You slip that little thing in there and it makes the case for him. Yep. But that wasn't true. That wasn't the case. Right. But it wasn't him. That's why you don't do that, obviously. I mean, yeah. But it makes sense why you would. Yes, totally. So, Gary Condit, when he testified in this trial, would not answer the question, were you having an affair with Chandra Levy? Wouldn't answer the question.

Said it would violate Chandra's privacy and his privacy. Well, then the defense, of course, comes back with a pair of underwear with Gary Condit's DNA on it and says- How the fuck did they get those? Pretty much have proof because they collected him from her apartment when the cops in its evidence and basically say yeah you did so you don't have to say it because you should just be fucking honest he absolutely should but he's you know I don't I think he whatever so then the prosecution calls the two women Wadmeek raped while they were

jogging in Rock Creek Creek Park and one testified that he grabbed her from behind, dragged her down a ravine, held the knife against her face and raped her. Which is, you know, Chandra's remains were found down a ravine. Totally. So anyway, this guy gets found guilty. And this made me think of you because they said that Gaudmique said to Levi's family during the sentencing, I'm sorry for what happened to your daughter, but insisted he was innocent. And Susan Levi, the mother, said to him, did you really take her life?

Look me in my eyes and tell me. Which is your thing of like, just admit it. Just admit it. He was found guilty, sentenced to 60 years in prison. So at that point, Condit's lawyer, Burt Fields, remarked, it's a complete vindication, but that comes a little late. Who gives him his career back? And Condit retired from politics, moved with his wife to Phoenix. The wife stayed with him, apparently. If you're a fucking wife of a senator, you've got to be a little bit bing dong in the head.

You're playing the big game. You're not going to just run at the first dead paid intern that comes along. This is bigger picture stuff. So they moved to Phoenix. This is the most depressing paragraph I've ever read off of Wikipedia. They moved to Phoenix to manage real estate and open two Baskin Robbins franchises, which have since closed. Oh, okay. But then remember that Baskin-Robbins was one of the things that she searched on

her computer. Uh huh. Um, well, guess what? Now they've asked for a retrial for this guy because they're saying everything, all the evidence against this guy does not match up to her murder. Which I know I normally, and I'm sure this is just me being tabloid-y myself, but he was attacking people and robbing them and one woman he raped, but he wasn't yet a murderer. So it's not like she was the sixth body that they found, you know? Yeah, but you know, one person fights a little harder. True.

You get, you're already, was he already caught for the two rapes when he attacked her? Yeah, like just a standard escalation. So yeah, so don't, the way to not get tried for rape when someone can ID you is to murder them. To murder them. That's right. Well, on June 3rd, 2015, the defense said a new witness, a neighbor called 911 at 437 AM on the last day, Levy was reported to be alive, to report that she heard a blood curdling scream possibly coming from Levy was reported to be alive to report that she heard a blood curdling scream, possibly

coming from Levy's apartment. Why didn't that come into fucking play? Right? Because it's a 911 call. You can just go look it up. But the cops didn't find that person. They didn't look that hard. Or the person reported it and it got blown off.

So they were like, must not, they must have more information than me. Yeah. Well, and the thing is, that kind of maybe leads to the direction of that she wasn't attacked while she was jogging and murdered in that ravine. She was murdered in her apartment and her body was dumped in that ravine after the cops looked. Sure. Which would kind of make a little bit more sense. I mean, who knows? Who knows?

This is another case of the most obvious answer is usually the correct answer. There's a rapist in that park. Yes. It's most likely him. But they are, the defense attorneys have requested Gary Condit's bank telephone and credit card records, as well as any records from Mr. Condit's gym from around the time of the disappearance. And they're looking for... Where's the gym? I don't know. But they must know something specific.

Yeah. Which is why I was like, huh. So they're basically going way harder into searching Condit as a suspect, which is why I was like, huh. So they're basically going way harder into searching content as a suspect, which I bet you they didn't do, they were trying not to before. As being good DC cops, they're just like, it's the actual congressman. Is he a congressman or a senator? Congressman. Did I say Senator throughout this? Did I?

Who knows? Accuracy, we're not known for it. Looking for turtles, ladies and gentlemen. So anyway, this guy is going to get a new trial in October of this year. That poor family. It's pretty terrible. Oh, and also they're asking for notes from law enforcement interviews from former congressman Richard Army of Texas and John Doolittle of California because they are individuals Condit said he was meeting with on one of the important days in question.

So they're basically going back over and picking his shit apart to make sure, I think, to make sure. Well, you know what the best fucking, who the best witnesses are, are fucking ex-girlfriends. That's right. So he's probably got a few of those. Oh, there was definitely, there was one in that article that was like a, basically a air hostess, a stewardess or whatever, that he told not to talk to the cops. Yeah.

Well, I mean, I guess he would do that. He had a lot of stuff to be exposed, I think. But that's a good one. That's a cold case I would really, really like to know the real story of. That's a deeper one than it seems at first. Because they're opening it back up. Like something actually may come of it. That's crazy that they're opening it back up. Something actually may come of it. That's crazy that they're opening it back up. I mean, that makes me sad because what

if it really was him and he gets off and then Condent doesn't get tried because they don't have enough evidence. And so nobody, so this guy spent six years in prison and that's it. I know. It's it. I know. It's crazy. I know. Okay. We're back. Karen, any case updates on the story?

No, there's no major case updates. The case is still unsolved. There was like a, basically a cliffhanger in the way I just told that story. Yeah. Ingmar Gwandike, the man accused of killing Chandra Levy, was getting a new trial. I didn't mention why, and that's because the prosecutors failed to disclose that their key witness was a jailhouse informant

who'd cooperated with prosecutors in several other cases to get favorable treatment and reduce sentences, and that, of course, then calls the reliability of his testimony into question. So since that episode, episode 16 came out, prosecutors decided not to retry Gwandike. They lost confidence in their case and they basically just deported him back to his native El Salvador. Wow. That's just so devastating and not, I think, how I remembered that went. That's so disappointing. I wonder like jailhouse informants, where are we ever going to land with that? Because on one hand, it could be true and completely helpful and then they

wouldn't come forward unless they got favorable treatment. But on the other hand, it could all be bullshit. It's just such a hit or miss case. I guess you need more than circumstantial evidence and a jailhouse informant, essentially. Yes. I think that's the point. You know, some sort of like a full corruption wash, I think, would be necessary on every side. I think corruption is a huge problem in that area, obviously. I mean, I'm just literally like,

I'm telling you about the episodes of Law and Order I have watched, so I really know what I'm talking about here. But I mean, I think that's the piece is like, who do we trust? Who is actually on the side of the good? And then when you have a story like that where somebody is corroborating something, he told me that he actually did it.

It's like, anyone can and will say that if they're desperate enough. Or you need that held back information that the public doesn't know about. But also it's like, you know, if they had taken her disappearance seriously from the beginning, her body might have been found sooner and DNA evidence might have been in play. But because they zeroed in on Gary Condit, they kind of didn't really take it seriously that something else might have happened to her. Yeah, I think we've seen that happen a lot where the case starts to follow the story in the media.

And it's like the media is then shining a spotlight of everyone should be looking over here. And it's like that's whether or not detectives are actually doing that, we don't really know. But that's where it seems like it's like the attention and the heat goes there. Speaking of that, I in this episode went back and forth calling Gary Condit a congressman and a senator.

To me, they're incredibly interchangeable as a Gen X child of the 90s. He was a congressman. And again, he did have an affair, all those things. He was not found guilty of this crime. But in my mind of like growing up in the 80s and looking at People magazine, you know what I mean? I would have thought he was totally guilty of it.

It also happened like really close on the heels of Bill Clinton getting caught doing nefarious things with an intern. And so I think people just like had this image in their mind of these senators and politicians and congressmen doing terrible things. Any of them, all of them presidents. Well, yeah. They're all crooked. Every single one of them. They're crooked. All right. Well, I hate to do this now, but we have to get into my story, which is one of the most awful stories I've ever had to research.

Georgia covering the case of Sylvia Likens. At Wealthsimple, we're built for whatever you're building. Built for Jane, who wants to break into the housing market. We're built for Ted, who's obsessed with what's happening in the global markets. And built for Celine, who just wants to retire and explore the world's flea markets. So take a moment and think about what you're building for. We've got the financial tools to help make it happen.

Wealthsimple. Built for possibilities. Visit wealthsimple.com slash possibilities. All right, my favorite murder. Yes. Seamless favorite murder. Yes. Seamless favorite murder. Sylvia Marie Likens. This one I hadn't heard about until we started the podcast and I fucking went down a rabbit hole of clickbait on Facebook group. Nice.

And it's fucking tragic. Get ready because it's depressing. Okay. So Sylvia Marie Lykens was born January 3rd, 1949, vintage murders. Love it. And she's from Indianapolis. And essentially she was tortured to death by Gertrude Banaszewski and her children and other people from the neighborhood. I know this one. Horrible. So this took place.

The girl, Sylvia died in October 26, 1965. So she was 16 years old. So Likin's family moved frequently because her parents were carnival workers. The parents had financial difficulties. So in 1965, the father, Lester Likens, arranged for his daughters, his two daughters to board with Gertrude to live with her. Gertrude was 37. and she was the mother of a new friend of the two girls named Paula, who was 17. And she moved in with Gertrude and Paula, and Paula's six siblings. Lester said he didn't pry, quote, didn't want to pry into the conditions

of the house, he reported at the trial. Good trial. Well done, Lester. I don't want to pry. That's how carnies are. They're not going to stick their nose in your business. You're sending your kids. And he encouraged Gertrude to, quote, straighten out his daughters. Great. Even from all accounts, these seemed like nice girls, even if they weren't. And they were paying Gertrude $20 a week to care for her, which I think the equivalent of like $150 now. She's

like, cheap. Yeah. So Gertrude described, Gertrude was described as quote, haggard, underweight, asthmatic, suffering from depression and the stress of several failed marriages. You got to see this woman, this photo of her man. She is a fucking salty bitch. Like there's definitely a shank in her purse kind of a person. And she's a single lady? A single at this point with like, I think there was six or seven kids aging from like 17 down to like 18 months. Jesus. Yeah. So she could still get it.

Seven children. Okay. I mean, 37. That's two years older than I am. And she was a fucking salty old woman. And like the photos, man, these eyebrows are something else. Pre waxing days. Just shaved, she just shaved them off and drew them on. Oh, those are the scary ones. Yeah, this chick is, I would not want to meet her in anywhere. Even a light alley? Yeah. So, she began, so when they moved in, Gertrude started taking her anger out, which apparently there was a lot of it on the Likens girls, and they soon focused exclusively on Sylvia. So, accusing her of petty crimes, the daughter Paula, who was pregnant at the time, kicked Likens in the genitals

and accused her of being pregnant and a slut, which she wasn't. Wow. Okay, I have to fucking warn everyone that some of this, I'm not going to say all of it, that this torture is like intense and awful. And there's a photo of this girl and she just looks sweet and normal and it's awful. So Lykens was accused by the family that she was spreading rumors about Paula. And so this provoked Stephanie's boyfriend, Coy Hubbard, which like, man, if that's not a fucking petty thief's name, I don't know what is, to physically attack Lykens. So this girl is getting tortured by the mother, her daughter, all the kids, the local teens, like boyfriends. It's like a hobby for them at this point. Gertrude encouraged the kids and the neighborhood kids to torment

Lykens. Some of her stuff I don't want to talk about but she said that by the time of her death she had over a hundred cigarette, cigarette burns on her body. It's really fucking brutal. And it's in creepy sexual stuff, sadists, I mean it's fucking sadist stuff, sexual stuff for humiliation, not for legitimate sexual reasons, you know, to break this poor girl spirit. And just because they can, right? Like just basically, they're all a little bit fucked up and clearly, you know. And it escalates and it becomes, I feel like it becomes fun for them.

Yeah. It's not like Stanford Prison Experiment, where you have one person that's your prisoner and suddenly it brings out all the like, you don't see them as a human anymore. It feels like the kid, Paula once hit her so hard in the face, she broke her own wrist. This is like, it breaks my heart and it makes me want to become a foster parent so much more because man, some people's fucking living situations are just insane. So the little sister attempted to contact the family, even the older sister and she visited the home and learned of the abuse but did not call the police or remove her sister from the phone.

There was a couple of people who were like, yeah, I saw some weird shit, but I never called, you know, I never called the cops, I never called anyone, I didn't wanna pry. Also that was back when you could like open hands slap other people's kids. Like it wasn't that big of a deal to get punched if you were being bad.

And if an adult said a kid was bad, that was the end of the story. That's very true. So the parents didn't interfere. Let's see, the girl, so she stopped going to school and she was locked in the cellar. So shortly before her death, okay, this is, oh God. So shortly before her death, Gertrude carved the words, I am prostitute and proud of it on Likens' abdomen with a heated kneel. Whoa. And a couple other things happened. It's fucking so tragic. I'm sorry if I'm bumming everyone

else so bad right now. That's what we're here for. So on October 25th, 1965, the day before she died, Likens tried to escape after overhearing Gertrude's plan to blindfold her and dump her body in the forest. But she got caught. So on the 26th, after multiple beatings, burnings and scalding baths, Likens died of a brain hemorrhage, shock and malnutrition. Holy shit. 16 years old. And then when she realized she was dead, Gertrude, like they did this crazy thing where they called the police and Gertrude had forced Sylvia to write a letter saying,

you know, she had had sex with a bunch of boys and exchanged for money and that they had dragged her away and basically they had beaten her and it was there. They had, like she made her write a letter saying that this is what happened to her. So before the police officers left the house, like, okay, that's what happened. Jenny, the little sister approached them and said, get me out of here and I'll tell you everything. Oh, thank God she finally got some balls. Yeah. The whole time it makes you wonder like, why didn't someone tell someone a teacher or... Yeah, but if it's, if you have to think if she's the salty old broad that's like there

with all those kids, they were probably like the bad family of the town. Yeah. I bet you there wasn't a lot of interaction or people coming in and out of that house. And it's this thing of like, you, you listen to authority back then. Yeah. Someone who was an older, an older person who was in charge was the authority and you didn't question that. And these things didn't happen. Like this would just... If someone told you this was

happening, you'd be like, that's disgusting. Don't ever say that again. It's not happening and you probably deserve to get slapped in the face because you were being bad or whatever. Okay. So during the trial, Gertrude denied being responsible for the death. She pled not guilty by reason of insanity. And four of the minors who took part in the abuse were also put on trial. So Paula, the older daughter, John, the younger son, Richard Hobbs, who was like family friend and good old coy Hubbard, who was 15 and doing some insane stuff to her that I don't want to talk about. In his closing statement, Gertrude's lawyer said, I condemn her for being a murderess, but I say she's not responsible because she's not all here tapping himself on the, tapping on the head. She's not all here. She's not responsible.

That was supposed to be a better voice, but it wasn't really. I liked it. It was old fashioned. I was trying. So in May 1966, Gertrude was convicted of first degree murder. She was spared the death penalty and was sentenced to life in prison. But of course, she didn't get life in prison. She was free on parole by 1985, having been a model prisoner. And she said, the Lord has forgiven me and I have peace inside. That's nice. You fucking. Yeah, that's the priority is how you feel. Yeah, the Lord. Monster totally forgave you. Yeah. And you have peace. That's great. Jesus loved

what you did to that girl. Move on with your fucking life. But you know who doesn't the girl you killed. Now, five years later, haunting your basement. Yeah. Five years later, she died of what I can only hope was painful lung cancer. Everyone else totally got out of prison and they became teachers. No. Yep. And yeah, the boys were sentenced to two to 21 years and released in three. You guys should, everyone should go. If you feel like murdering, you should because you're

just fucking not going to get punished for it at all. It bothers me so much. I hope that someday in this podcast, we can either A, solve a murder or B, change sentencing laws. Can we do that, Karen? Yes. I think this podcast has just enough influence and span to really get out there. Well, I mean, that is so crazy to think that one of those people that tortured a young girl became a teacher to be in charge of young girls and boys. That doesn't even make sense. It boggles the mind.

And the thing about all of this shit is that you can't keep convincing yourself that The world is a fair and just place and who's trying to convince themselves people who aren't into true crime. Oh That's their problem, and they're not listening anyway. Yeah, they don't want to know Whereas like people like us are so aware and so incensed by how fucked up this world is. What city did that happen in? Indianapolis. Which is like, do people still live there?

And the Midwest? Yeah. Also, I wonder if it's that thing of like the Midwestern thing of people keeping to themselves. Sure. Being private and not being nosy is a big thing. I mean, the dad didn't want to pry into the where his... I want to know the stories of like, were they on drugs or were they total, like gutter drunk

alcoholics? You don't just give your children away. I'm sure they were alcoholics. Yeah. If they worked at a carnival, for God's sake. I think it said that he had alcohol problems and then the parents like hated each other and I think they divorced. And so he was like, take, you know, the sons, there was like three sons in the family, in the Lykins family and they got sent to live with grandma. But the girls go fend for yourselves. Rough. Oh yeah. And were they locked up early? Like why didn't they run away?

I know that's another thing in my mind is like, you would be so much better off living on the streets. There's no silver lining. No, it goes straight down into hell. It's just one hopes that Jenny Likens, a little sister, had an okay life, but could she have? Probably not. I don't know, unless she's one of those people that like became like a victim's rights advocate. That happens a lot to people. That's true.

Because that's crazy. Also, it was the mid-60s. So this was before there was awareness about child abuse or anything like that. But it was right on the edge. Like what you're describing, if it was 1925, I'd be like, oh, okay. But it's so much later than that. Well, I mean, yeah, look at spankings. Spankings someday, people are going to be like, that is abuse, straight up abuse. But I mean, I feel like up until recently, it was like, yeah, that's how you punish your kids. Well, and also up until recently, they didn't think, what kind of a teacher wants to spank children? Yeah.

Like, that's, that, it needs to turn around where it's like, it's not about these kids' behavioral problems. It's about an adult in this position who's signed up to be a teacher, who's signed up to be around children and can't handle themselves around children. And reinforcing bad behavior in children and letting them know that the answer to a problem is physical violence. Yeah. Okay, we're back from that nightmare.

I guess we just don't need to say it anymore, even though it's true. But the Sylvia Likens case is one of the ones that pops into my head randomly of Like the kind of suffering that she went through for no reason like who were these people is such a crazy Just truly out of a nightmare kind of story any case updates on that So yeah, there's no major case updates on this one But a couple things in, the Boone County Child Advocacy Center, which is an Indiana based nonprofit, was renamed the Sylvia's Child Advocacy Center in honor of Sylvia's memory. And the organization quote, provides forensic interviews

and victim advocacy for children victims of informed abuse, neglect, maltreatment and sexual assault, end quote. So she's getting, you know, recognition there. And also, you can check out the movie about this case called An American Crime. It's from 2007, and it stars Elliot Page, Catherine Keener, Bradley Woodford, Evan Peters, and more. So check out An American Crime.

I'm sorry, but I love Evan Peters so much. Yeah. I remember him from Marge of fucking East town, mayor of East town. What was he? Oh, he was the cute cop. He was the detective. Oh, he was so cute. Evan Peters, which I bet in this, he's a real youngster.

Yeah, definitely. Anyway. All right, well, that's it for this episode. Should we pick a new title other than the brilliant blood murder? I'd really. Huh? I'd love to pick a new title. than the brilliant blood murder scene? I'd love to pick a new title. This one is kind of that, I feel like when we did it, we're like, well, it sounds good.

It does sound good, but. Yeah, it's silly. I think it was like, we picked them one after we recorded and we were so tired by then that we were just like, let's get out of here. For sure. So Georgia says in this episode, cooking and hanging out at home, which is her pointing out on the show, the family who wants to be the fucking mayor.

Don't you know about cooking and hanging out at home and being a good parent? Which is so hilarious. I'm just really not into extra jobs. Like to me, it's like, why are you taking on more, as someone who does take every fucking thing on, like be lazy if you have the opportunity, like why wouldn't you? Be lazy and like comfortable. And volunteering for political work, right? Where it's like, what's the payoff there? It's going to tear your family apart. You're just always fighting, always working,

always having to beg for money. Exactly. Going to galas all the time and fucking announcing things and cutting ribbons and you mean Jesus. Oh, the grocery stores that you have to open over and over. John's, Vaughn's. And the other name could be Dun Dun Dun, but that's because you bring up Dominic Dunn's involvement in genre-levy case. And then my brilliant 2016 brain went Dun Dun Dun. Let me explain it. Anyways. Wait, hold on. Because I have a couple of questions.

Dun Dun Dun. It is crazy. Dominic Dunn was basically the king of true crime journalism. And true crime, you know, his piece is in Vanity Fair. And then him going through it himself. It's just incredible. The kind of work that he did, I think, and stuff. You know, he used to have a series that I loved that he was the host of.

I think it was about rich people. Yeah, and their stupid crimes. Yeah, but he's a real giant. Thank you guys for, you know, being around, hanging out, all that stuff. Yeah, we really appreciate you paging back through the photo album with us. Yeah, it's traumatizing and fun. Horrifying. Look.

Listen. Just go listen to your voicemail messages if you don't think it's horrifying. Your outgoing voicemail. What's voicemail, Karen, you 24-year-olds ask. Don't worry about it. I'm not talking to you. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.

Goodbye. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?