My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 19: Nineteen Kills and Counting

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 19: Nineteen Kills and Counting when Georgia covered the Freeway Phantom and Karen detailed the crimes of Anders Behring Breivk. Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and much more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode!   Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder   Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes/rewind-with-karen-georgia-episode-19-nineteen-kills-and-counting My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories, and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Click, upload, you're good. Find the perfect holiday card for you at Shutterfly.com and start customizing today. Enjoy 40% off your Shutterfly order with promo code MFM40 and send something meaningful this year. Get free shipping on qualified orders. See site for more details. That's Shutterfly.com promo code MFM40. Goodbye. Interior Chinatown is an all new series based on the bestselling novel by Charles Yu about a struggling Asian actor who gets a bigger part than he expected when he witnesses a crime in Chinatown, streaming November 19th only on Disney+. Hello. Hello. Hello. And welcome. To Rewind with Karen in Georgia.

If you don't know, this is our extra Wednesday podcast where we go and revisit our earliest episodes. We react to what we used to be like, and we give you any case updates that we might have for the stories that we tell you. And today we're rewinding to episode 19, which came out on Thursday, June 2nd, 2016, called 19 Kills and Counting, which I didn't get for a second,

because it's been so long since that show. I still don't get it. 19 Kids and Counting? Wasn't that the Duggar TV show? Oh yeah, this is a Duggar. This is a Duggar reference episode. It's a disaster from the beginning. Right from the start. So now it's time for you to grab a glass of water

and the person who cut your hair and your favorite cuddle buddy and you can all listen along because now, because of Rewind, we can all be day one listeners. Okay, let's listen to the intro of episode 19. This is recording now.

Am I gonna really annoy you if I keep telling you not to hold that part of this? Oh no, I need it. Is it gonna annoy you though? I feel like at some point you're gonna be like, I'm gonna murder you. Let's plan out our first fight now. I'll start crying immediately. I feel like any time we've even come within 30 miles of the slightest fight, we have a total talk down.

Yeah, you're going to be like, I want to talk to you about something. Yeah. I like that. Did I say that? No, we both, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I like that.

I think it's because we started our friendship at a place of vulnerability. Yes. By talking about literally being vulnerable. That's right. And also, when I think about being in a fight with you, it makes me immediately want to start crying. I'm just like, I can't have it. I just can't. I'll do anything to make sure it doesn't happen. Yay. I'm going gonna do so much shit now. Now that I know I have fucking carte blanche. Free rein. Fuck with you. Well I will. That's great. I'm not saying I won't very firmly confront you. Right. It's not a fight if you're just screaming at me. If I scream you're down into a corner. Yeah that's not technically a fight. If it's

one punch and I'm out, that's not technically a fight. If it's one punch and I'm out, that's not a fight. Some of my favorite fights, because I do the Irish thing where I won't say anything. And then all of a sudden, I'm out. I'll just be Irish goodbye you. I think I know that. And that's why I'm like, that's what I'm scared of. Right. Which is but that's why I'm saying I'll be very, I'll be, total conversations at the jump at the slightest thing. That's why I'll always be like, here's how I feel, here's my thing, and here's my, I need you to know my thing.

We're adults and we know our things by now. Yeah, you got to say your thing. You know what, it's only fair that you give the other person a chance. You say, here's the thing, and the other, give the other person a chance to at least go. Yeah, and you'll know by their response whether or not there's someone that you can have a lifelong relationship with, or at least for the next few weeks. Until they do it again.

Until our podcast gets out of the top 10. Are we out already? We must be. We're not. I checked today. Excuse me. We must be. We're not. I checked today. Excuse me. That was loud. That was the best reaction. No, it's so good. You guys were in the top ten iTunes comedy podcasts. We were number one a week ago. I'm disappointed in you guys. No, I'm not. I love you. Don't say that. Maybe the reason we're not number one anymore

is because nobody knows what podcast this is. Hey, this is my favorite murder. Oh yeah, this is my favorite murder starring Georgia Hart Stark. And Karen Kilgara. We say each other's names. If you're trying to figure out who's talking, I always say Georgia Hart Stark. It's like a cute, I think it's things people do it on the radio a lot.

It's cute. It's like a cute. I think it's things people do it on the radio a lot. It's cute Did you kiss so on our on our fucking story famed Facebook group? That everyone loves yeah, that has 11 hundred eleven thousand Holy eleven the last the last time I looked it was nine eleven thousand people in it Somehow they're all fucking cool because everybody gets that everybody else wants everybody to be cool. Yeah. And when they're not cool and they like get a talking to, they're like, I'm sorry, cool. Someone, our last names are Kill Hard together. Oh, fuck yeah. Hard Kill.

Hard Star and Killgara. I like that a lot. That's it. They are kind of badass-y murder names. It's almost like fucking fate. It's fucking fate. hard kill. That's the name of our TV show. That's a good idea the hard kill The book we write together about I Feel like if we do the hard kill we should both dressed up as like we should dress up like Kind of 70s news anchors. I was going to think you were going to say spy versus spy. And try to kill each other.

But we have to be vulnerable about it and really discuss it. Yeah, it looks sad. I feel like I want to come at you with a naive, but... Hard kill is definitely 70s anchor women. Yeah. We're like, we have bows at the neck and... Feathered hair. Feathered hair.

You have feathered hair. You, because you already have this great, you would be feathered hair. I'll do like a Mary Lou Retton full cut. Yes. Oh my God. How great would that? God, hard kill. Let's do this thing. Hard kill. Is anyone listening who wants to make a TV show for us? We're specifically talking about FXX. If anyone from FXX is listening, we just call out.

Well, you know what? That's how they do it on the secret You just ask for what you want to the universe or you know podcast listeners I just sit in at work today. Everybody had a conversation about how they don't understand what podcasts are and They don't understand why they're popular and I just sit there like like with my dirty secret that I have to put and I just sit there like with my dirty secret that I have two punk girls. And just keep looking around. And not only that, you fucking, they bring you joy. Like you don't even just have them. I almost at one point said, it's kind of like if you could control the radio.

Yeah, it's a radio show. It's a radio, if you liked what you were listening to on the radio, that's kind of what it's like. It's a radio show and there are various topics all that span everything and you're always going to find one you're interested in. Yeah. It's basically if do you like two dudes just interrupting each other? They've got that. They've got a lot of that. They've got that. Do you like two grown women who talk like they're in junior high about murder? Or here. We've hello, and welcome. That's us. That's this.

Nobody knew that you had two podcasts? Well, Kreisel knows, my boss knows, but he wasn't saying anything. Yeah, he was like keeping your secret. And Fred knows because he's been on one of them. Right. But he was just, it was just everybody kind of, I had that exact same feeling.

Before I started listening to podcasts, I was like, why would anyone wanna listen to standup comics talking? That's all I've listened to for the before I started listening to podcasts. I was like, why would anyone want to listen to stand-up comics talking? That's all I've listened to for the past 20 years of my life. It's so boring unless you're really shit-faced or just NPR Nobody likes Fucking nevermind. I'm not gonna talk shit on them. Yeah, let's not be shit talkers. I let what I do like is Cool music jams. That's how I usually spend my time if I'm gonna just listen to something not me Fucking audio book you're all about that But then you know when the first couple times I listen podcast driving home to San Francisco on the five

He's all asleep. God bless. No, it got it makes the ride feel like it's an hour long I'm a friend who was on a fuckin' road trip with her boyfriend this weekend texting me, we're listening, we're on episode 12. Oh. Like, totally into it. Don't you love, there was a couple people who were sending, who were posting on the Facebook page,

why don't you guys have an episode 12? Do we? Well, it turns out, we do, that's Our Bodies, Our 12s. Oh, yeah another a great title, I'll say it myself, but I was immediately like oh shoot we because of when we misnumbered the other ones. Oh, yeah when we thought 15 was 16 I assumed they were right immediately, but it was some weird thing with glitch Yeah, it was an iTunes glitch or something glitch. Okay, we're back.

And we're back. Should we discuss this topic of having our first fight? Should we open that can of worms? Well, hey, look, I mean, that first of all, that mistake that I did make with the microphone, which I made almost every episode for like, maybe the first 20, 30, I don't know. But it was, I didn't really listen back often, but when I did, I was just like, what is happening?

And it was me just jiggling the mic as I was talking. Right? I don't, I don't, I totally don't remember. And we held microphones, they were handheld for so long. Yeah. Way longer than we should have. Way longer than most podcasts know to do. Yeah. So it's inevitable that there's gonna be, you know, outside noises that happen. I think that- There's gonna be some issues. Yeah. I think for some reason I'm really susceptible to noises. I'm not for some reason. It's because I'm fucking have anxiety, but I'm really aware of like little noises that could be in the background more so than other people.

So I'm always the like hold for sound person, even though I'm not the sound person, you know, or like, do you guys hear that? We should, we should pause. So I think I'm just hyper aware of that. Yeah. And you have a that? We should pause. So I think I'm just hyper aware of that. Yeah. You have a sensitivity toward it? Yes. Whereas I clearly am completely deaf to it and I'm like, I not only don't know what you're talking about, I'm not doing it. It's not your job. You know?

It's not my job and also I just will flatly deny that it's happening. And then listen back to the episode and just be like, that's so distracting. It's so irritating. I'm sorry we have sound people now. What's up, guys? I mean, here's the thing. We finally started releasing on one day, and we got that cadence correct. You can't expect us to also have good sound. Come on. Right, it's only episode 19.

But the thing is, we already have 11,000 people in the Facebook group by then. That's a lot for 19 episodes. It is. That happened quick, too. It went fast. The whole a lot for 19 episodes. It is. That happened quick too. It went fast. Yeah.

The whole fucking thing went really fast, but we start to become aware that other people are aware of us and don't like it. And that was very strange because it's almost suddenly it's the we're being observed. And of course that changes something inherently. Absolutely. And that idea of like, somebody's saying we're making fun of murder, which we're like, no, we're not. But then- Well, that's the thing is like, they're saying they don't like it.

They don't like the idea of it. Right. They've never listened to it, which we completely understand. Yes. True crime and comedy together, those words don't make sense together. And we are flippant about it. So there's, it's like- And we also don't give a fuck if you haven't listened and you don't make sense together. And we are flippant about it. So there's, it's like, And we also don't give a fuck if you haven't listened and you don't like it.

Right. But like in those early days, you know, we've listened back. It's a harsh listen to go like, oh yeah, we shouldn't have said that. We shouldn't have said it that way. We should have had a kind of a more meta awareness of what we were doing and other people listening to it. You know, but we just we didn't because we are just regular people that were talking into microphones. Yeah. But what we learned is to take the true crime part seriously and the comedy part around it. That's how I was explaining it to someone who's like, what

do you do? And then I tell them the part about the podcast and like, okay, but we don't the comedy is not the story part. The comedy is that, you know, we have this anxiety around the idea that these things happen in our society and they're terrifying. And our way of coping with horror and terror and fear is through laughing together and humor. It's not about the stories we're telling or the victims or the, you know, horrible things that are happening. Yeah. I also think that awareness is then suddenly the focus becomes how are we being

criticized as opposed to all the other people who get it. Because there's all these people who get it and are showing up to say they get it and I'm so happy to hear like this being discussed, the way you're discussing it. There's plenty of people doing that, but those people disappear when someone comes and says you're a bad person. It's a very, very strange kind of like that awareness. I'll never get over it because it's just so weird. You're being perceived and you're being judged and people think you're a bad person. There's nothing you can do about it. People think you're a bad person, there's nothing you can do about it. Except for the day or the episode 19 listeners.

Those people are not judging us. No. We appreciate you. Never. Also, the idea that I was talking about my job at the time. Erin put this together and her theory is that I worked on Portland because I was telling stories about my boss, John Kreisel and Fred Armisen. But I think that's also the funniest thing of working on that show,

and at one point transitioning from that show to a second show. Right. But doing this podcast the entire time. It was just like the most exhausting, insane. I was just like, I can't quit any of these things. You can't quit. Yeah. I can't quit anything.

Because all of them are like, you can't, not yet. Keep all these chips on the table. It was wild. It was a wild time. And also then, it's like you're doing, I had to do homework on top of that homework. But I don't like homework. We've talked about this.

I know. But do you think you're a workaholic kind of? Absolutely. Do you think you'd be like one of those 1950s absent dads who has like a bachelor apartment in the city because he just is at work all day? Yeah, I think I would have like one main family and two secret families. I wouldn't be able to get away enough. That's a lot of work because you need the work.

Yeah, I need it. I need it. I need the drama and the problems. But also I think it's just that when you like move to LA because you think you're gonna be in show business And you have one idea of what show businesses you have no fucking clue what show businesses and what show businesses is fucking 16 hour days Do you want to be in this or not because we can get somebody else that you know will replace you in one day Like it is constant hustle tough. It is it is a tough business

So that was my thing always was like I got to pay these bills and I got to keep it going. And it's like, you're throwing all these, you have all these pans in the fire. Is that what they say? Because you don't know what's going to like create the biggest fucking explosion. I don't know where this is coming from, but you have no idea. Is it going to be Portlandia, which obviously that's huge in itself, but it's like, but you still have to think of what's next because there's only eight episodes. What are you doing after that?

Exactly. When that run is done, you immediately, you have to do such a good job that people recommend you for your next job. And this is, now we're talking 2016 era. The rooms are so much smaller now. There's so many fewer writing jobs now. It's rough. I mean, it's crazy. But then also the idea that my pan in the fire of a podcast with my friend Georgia that I'd met six months prior, it's wild. All right. So Georgia goes first on this episode. So here is her story about the so-called freeway phantom.

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and simple mailing services, you don't have to worry about the logistics. They even offer free address printing and an easy address collector to make sending your cards a breeze. Karen, every single year, I'm like, we're gonna do a holiday card this year. We're gonna get all the animals in.

It's gonna be so adorable. And I always don't do it because I'm like, this is too hard. But Shutterfly actually does make it really easy. Like even I can do it. So get ready for our holiday card this year. The organization it takes to do it. Shutterfly is basically going, we understand and we can do that for you. Totally like click upload. You're good. Find the perfect holiday card for you at Shutterfly.com and start customizing today. Enjoy 40% off your Shutterfly order with promo code MFM40

and send something meaningful this year. Get free shipping on qualified orders. See site for more details. That's Shutterfly.com promo code MFM40. Goodbye. Okay, you're first this week. I'm first this week? Okay.

Let's get down to business. I don't wanna mess around. What is this? Ooh. Something circus in town. We're gonna get deep into this shit. Are you guys ready for our favorite murders? Wait. Yes we are. Where the fuck is my favorite? We love murder. Oh my god. I thought mine was deleted from my... Oh my god. Alright.

I've never heard of this one. Uh oh. The Freeway Phantom Killer? Aw shit, y'all. You heard of this one? I don't know. Oh man. I don't think so.

This is some fucked up shit. And here's what I was thinking. I don't want to... I want to not only do white women like Martha Moxley getting killed. Right. I don't want to do that. I found this one and I'm like, I've never heard of this and it's a fucking serial killer. We're six young girls.

Ugh. Gotten murdered in the same area. Are they women of color? They are all black women. Yeah, that's fucking, yeah. And it's tragic. I'll get into it. All right, here we go.

So the Freeway Phantom was the name given to an unidentified serial killer known to have abducted, raped, and strangled six female youths in the Washington, D.C. area from April 1971 through September 1972. So that's not even a fucking year. No. Which immediately makes you think he got arrested right afterwards or moved on. Oh because they don't know who it is? Oh yeah, unidentified still. Oh sorry. No it's fine. I have some suspects. The victims were all African American girls between the ages of 10 and 18. No, no.

Sweet baby angels. Okay, so the first one was in April 1971. 13-year-old Carol Spinks was sent by her sister to go to a 7-Eleven located half a mile away from her home, which is like what you do back then. You go walk. And 13! That's like old enough. Oh, so old. We used to walk to the store, the corner store,

which is like easily a half a mile away every single day from when I was like six years old. Yeah, we used to jaywalk on one of the busiest streets. Like, encouraged to jaywalk to the store across the street. Just cut across the street. Just run fast. Yeah. You fucking idiot. On her way home from the store, the street. Just cut across the street. Just run fast. Yeah. You fucking idiot.

On her way home from the store, Carol was abducted and her body was found six days later on a grassy embankment next to the northbound lanes of the I-295. Over a month later in July, Darlenia Johnson was 16, was abducted while on her way to a summer job at a recreation center. 11 days later her body was discovered 15 feet from where Spinks had been found. So again, on the freeway, near the freeway. In July 1971, little 10 year old Brenda Crockett

failed to return home after having been sent to the store by her mother again. Three hours after, okay, here's this interesting, three hours after Brenda was last seen, because they were immediately like this, she should have come home, the phone rang and it was answered by her seven-year-old sister who was waiting at home to see if she'd come home while her family was searching the neighborhood. Brenda was on the line crying and she said, a white man picked me up and I'm heading home in a cab.

And then she added that she believed she was in Virginia before abruptly saying bye and hanging up. Weird. What? A short time later. Wait, sorry, if it's 1971, how is she calling from a cab? Yeah, there's a lot of inconsistencies. I wanna hear your opinion on this too. Okay

This this sucks. I know I'm sorry. No, no, no, I guess I feel like I can see them in my head I do too a short time later the phone rang again and this time it was answered by the boyfriend of Brenda's mother It was Brenda again, and she repeated what she said to her sister and then said, did my mother see me? And he asked, how could she see you when you're in Virginia? And the boyfriends also said, tell the man to come to the phone and tell me where you're at and I'll come get you. The boyfriend then heard heavy footsteps in the background and Brenda said, I'll see you and the line went dead.

A few hours later, Brenda was found by a hitchhiker on route 50 near the I-295 In a place where she couldn't be missed she had been raped and strangled and a scarf is knotted around her neck What what is The thing did my mom see me makes me think She like drove by the house in this person's car, like somehow it was someone they knew. You know what I mean? And it was a white man was maybe, and I'm coming home, was maybe the killer told her that, told her to say that to throw them off. Because I bet they didn't expect

them to start searching for her so quickly. Right. So maybe she was in the neighborhood. I wonder, like, why would he let her use the phone? Was she on drugs or drugged in some way that she was saying weird shit? Like, you know, like she got chloroform, woke up, grabbed the phone. Totally. Something, I mean.

But why would that happen a couple times? Yeah. Where was the guy? Yeah. It makes me think that it's someone she knew. Did my mom see me? Yeah. Or maybe he, maybe he lied to her and said, your mom sent me to come get you or something.

Oh yeah. Your mom knows that you're getting in the car with me. Yeah Your mom saw what you were doing. I don't know. Okay So authorities quickly concluded that Brenda's call home Was at the behest of the killer. That's just their guests. Yeah That's just their guess. Furthermore one witness reported having seen one of the victims, Miss Johnson, in an old black car driven by an African American male shortly after her abduction. So then in October 1971, 12 year old Namo Shea Yates was walking home from a Safeway store in northeast Washington, D.C. when she

was kidnapped, raped and strangled. Her body was found within a few hours of her abduction again, which is interesting that he just doesn't keep the bodies. Just off the shoulder of the Pennsylvania Avenue in Maryland. It's after this murder that the quote freeway phantom moniker was first used in the city tabloid article describing the murders. So in the last murder, it was November 1971. After having dinner with a high school classmate, Brenda Woodward, 18, boarded a city bus to return to her home.

And six hours later, police officers discovered her body stabbed and strangled in a grassy area near an access ramp to Route 202 in the Baltimore-Washington Parkway. Okay, so here's a weird, oh no, that's not the final victim. That's the second to final victim, I'm sorry. So a coat had been placed over her as if it was tucking her in, and in the pockets there was victim, I'm sorry. So a coat had been placed over her as if it was like tucking her in and in the pockets there was a note from the killer.

It said, this is tantamount to my, sorry, this is tantamount to my intensitivity to people, especially women. I will admit the others when you can catch me, exclamation mark, sign the freeway phantom. But he exclamation mark, sign the freeway phantom. But he wrote free-way, the freeway phantom. And they're saying that it looks like the note was written by the victim in her own handwriting,

but I looked at the note and it looks like a fucking psychopath's handwriting. It doesn't look like her handwriting. Were they interpreting it as like a young person's handwriting or? Yeah, like that it wasn't hers, but I didn't, no, no, no, not a young person, just like, I don't know why they came to that conclusion and nobody, I'll tell you why, nobody knows that.

Also, is he using the word tantamount correctly? Let's, that will come back around. Okay. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, this is tantamount to my insensitivity to people especially So he's saying this is the point. This is how this is how much I don't like people I don't care about people especially women. Right? That's what he's his point is I always thought that meant tantamount meant equivalent though. That's what it means

So I think this murder of this girl is equivalent to how much I don't give a shit about Okay, I mean it's not used correctly got it. So September 1972 I'm so worried about grammar all the time. No because it actually comes back or it's an interesting word to use That one would think can be like in the in the jinx how he spelled Beverly. Yes Which helped get him caught is a fucking great clue. Every single thing can be a clue. Every dot of the I can indicate something. Indicate or exonerate something. Yeah, that's right. So September 1972, the Phantom's final victim, so the high school senior Diane Williams, she had cooked dinner for her family and then visited her boyfriend's house.

She was last seen boarding a bus again and a short time later her strangled body was discovered alongside the I-295 just south of the district line. So those are the murders They rape. Yeah, so 30 The slings supposedly triggered one of the largest investigations in the region is seen Two dozen detectives were assigned to the hunt initially and the FBI was called in until Watergate diverted the agency's manpower. Oh, man fucking rich called in until Watergate diverted the agency's manpower. Oh man. Fucking rich politicians, ruin it again. With their stupid bullshit.

Yep. Is my cat kicking you? A little bit. Okay, I'm sorry. That's okay. So, among the individuals considered were a gang known as the Green Vega Rapists. That's a fucking cheery name. Jesus Christ. Do you think they danced? What were they up to?

No, just simple little, they played craps. Members of this gang were collectively responsible for numerous Washington DC and surrounding Maryland vicinity rapes and abductions that have occurred near the Washington Beltway. So everyone thought it was them. One dude was like, one of the gang members and they were all incarcerated was like, I know it wasn't me, I had nothing to do with it. I know who did it. If you don't say who I am, if you keep me anonymous, I'll give you information. And they were like, okay. And he was going to identify, he identified the guy, the date and location of the crime and a signature detail, which was not provided to the public, but which

is known only to the public but which was known only to the perpetrator and to detectives, that signature information was correct. The inmate who provided the information says he wasn't involved, blah, blah, blah, an alibi, a verified alibi. But during this period an election was being held in Maryland and one of the candidates publicly announced to the press that a break had occurred in the freeway phantom investigation and provided that an inmate at the prison where this guy was at had given information. No. After that announcement, the inmate who provided the information was like, fuck.

Was killed? No, not killed, but maybe eventually. But he was like later days and denied that he had anything. He was just like, I'm out. You're rude. Total rude. You idiot politician. You're rude. Total rude. You idiot politician. You fucking idiot.

And looking through the, I don't think they had any, that they were involved. I don't think- The green Vega rapists. Looking at the evidence and their MO and this sounds like the work of one person. Yeah, I don't think this was them and it's like Raping rape is a different crime than murdering and kidnapping raping murdering with bare hands disposing of a body Yeah, I would think that in gangs like it reminds me of like Hells Angels or something where they take women, they don't usually, raping a 10 year old child crosses a line even when

you are a gang member, even when you are, like pedophilia and all that kind of shit is not, that's not just standard activity. And gaining access and the trust of these girls and to get, you know, he had to have gotten them in his car somehow that's right they had I've gone with him somehow it's a it's wolf and she's clothing if you see a gang member if you see three gang members coming at you fucking run you don't get in their car even then children are taught don't talk to strangers yeah so if you see about yeah you see gang members you're not gonna fucking get in the car.

Yeah. All right. So I don't think it's them. But the case is still open, as we said. So fucked up. Let's see here. All right. So and there's not the last article I could find from any of this was from 2013.

So and at that time, all, let's, here we go. So the DC police detective James Traynham, he's kind of the dude now who's like, I'm going to try to, or was in like 2006, he's like, I'm going to get this sucker. And a lucky hit on DNA sample could change all that. But here's the fucking thing. Everything got lost or destroyed. All of the fucking evidence. And that's why that note, there's a photo of it, but there's no way to test it. Everything got thrown away and destroyed.

No. Yep. But the good news is that because it was in different districts, they were able to find a DNA sample from a district that, not the main district, so Maryland has, Maryland State Police have a sample found on Williams, one of the girls who was killed, and they had never tested it because she was leaving her boyfriends, so they figured that she had had sex with her boyfriend that night, So they never fucking tested the DNA. What? Why wouldn't they ask her?

She was dead. Oh my God. I'm so sorry. Oh my. Ask him. Ask him. I forgot what podcast I was on. Oh my God. They did ask him and he said they didn't have sex. It's so irritating. Like anytime you talk about like police making assumptions, I just my mind goes to like what? And this is why people I don't want to like I don't want to just

fucking bury all the cops in this and everything because this is how stuff was done back then. This was how stuff was done, that's right. And it seems like they did put a lot of work into it, but if you ask the families, which there's a lot of interviews from the families, they fucking didn't. And the families are like, it's because if these were all blonde white women, this would have been solved. That's exactly right. And you can't help but believe that it will of course of course that's true Of course it is it we've we that's just been tested out time and again but the other thing is

that the the attitude of these cops is like Immediately, you're the victim of a crime. You're dead, you've been murdered, and suddenly it's like, well, she fucked her boy. You can hear the slut shaming through the years, and you just know that that's... It makes me crazy, it's just like not treating people with respect, even in death. I agree, and this is why I wanted to do this. This is why when I was looking for the next one, I like I've never fucking heard about this. Yeah, and this is like six

Children got fucking murdered and there's nobody who got ever, you know fingered for it. It's insane. Yeah, so this guy drained Traynham he took it up as a cold case in 2004. He was like, I'm going to solve this. He thought he had a key piece of evidence that on the clothing of the phantoms last known victim, they found a potential DNA sample. Let's see here. Okay. So because her body was discovered over the district line in Prince George, Maryland police initially handled the case and so they had this information. And so it's like this, I found all these articles

that they're like, so the DNA testing will be done if the sample yields a good profile, it'll be submitted to the database, blah, blah, blah, but the last fucking thing I can find about that was from 2013. So I don't know if it's been tested or I Feel like there should be money. I Think there's a hundred and fifty Oh to test it. Well, I'm just saying I feel like People in this country need jobs and like there's like the whole thing of like old Rape kits that haven't gone tested and they're actually doing what I love is Mariska Harcote is doing all that work to change it, which God bless her and all the other people. There's a bunch of people that are like, there is the woman that's the mayor of, is she the city councilwoman in Detroit or she's the mayor of somewhere?

It's on the Facebook page. That's where I read it. Yeah. But these people that are just stepping up and being like a no no but I feel like some company could make money why why aren't they just prioritizing this the way they do everything else in terms of financial gain pay people yeah like get it going okay let's let's change that and let's change statute of limitations on rape.

Which is insane. There's a stat... I just want everyone to think about that. There's a statute of limitations on fucking rape, even if it's pedophilia. Yeah. Even if it's a 10-year-old girl that was just trying to go to the corner store. And here's one thing I'll change is I'll remember that the people that we're talking about are dead. I

Don't know what I don't know what to stop really thinking that yes in your right you know it was this what's that? Okay, the second that you Started saying that of like they just assumed she had sex with boyfriend I just went down that whole thing of like how many stories to this day in 2016 you hear of judges being, the sexism and the misogyny that you hear to this day in the legal system. And the reason why you'll never know the exact number of rape victims is because why would you go forward, why would you come forward with this rape if you know you're going to be like, well, you fucked your boyfriend earlier,

so it's probably not that. It's just sickening. I mean, it's happening less and less, but the fact that it still happens at all is just a disgrace. It's just like, we need to do better as the human race. We do. So, Traynham called on an expert who specializes in,

this is a fucking fascinating fact, specializes in narrowing the field of suspects, Kim Rosmo. She's a former Canadian police officer and professor at Texas State University. Developed a computer system that plots crime events on a map and helps determine where the suspect's, quote, anchor point or home or workplace or significant location might be. How fucking cool is that? Yeah. So they spent weeks looking through reports together. They visited the crime scene and they developed a

geographic profile of the killer's movements. I mean, they think the anchor point was in Congress Heights just south of the hospital. I don't really understand. Nothing came out of that. Understand. Nothing came out of that. So they have a suspect that I think sounds pretty good. So there's this dude, Robert Askins, A-S-K-I-N-S, who's also some like web developer. So when you Google him, put murder in. He had been charged with raping a 24-year-old woman in his house. He had killed prostitutes. He had been charged three raping a 24-year-old woman in his house. He had killed prostitutes.

He had been charged three times with homicide. He was in St. Elizabeth's Hospital, which is down the street from where they thought that the killer lived, and had later been convicted in a 1938 killing of a prostitute by cyanide poisoning. But his sentence had been overturned on legal technicalities and saying that he was too impaired to stand like too drunk at the time to be liable for it. Did you say 1938? Yeah. So when he was really young and he was probably doing, if it was him, doing these ones when he was way older. Yeah. So they arrested him in 1977 for something else. They found some, okay, so here's the interesting part. So they went through his stuff

and they found in his desk drawer a footnote from the judge's sentence. And the word tantamount had been used over and over in that. And later he would learn that this guy Askins often used the word at the National Science Foundation where he was worked as a computer technician. So everyone he worked with was like, he used the word tantamount a lot.

I've never fucking used that word in my life. I've never used that word. I've never heard anybody else use that word. That's like a fucking Elmer Fudd word. Yeah. There's a tantamount to... That's crazy. And also, was this guy white? No. That's fascinating. He was like a black computer scientist in the 60s and 70s. Can I say something?

Yeah. I don't know if he was white. You don't know if he was white or black? Yeah. That's very interesting. I'm going to edit that out because I need to, I should have seen that, but I couldn't find any photos of him. Oh, I guess I assumed he was black because they saw the one girl in a car with a black

eye. Right. But that doesn't mean anything. Okay, we'll take it out. The technicians found on all six victims green synthetic carpet fiber, excuse me, on all but one of the victims' clothing. And they couldn't find anything like that in this dude's house. And they dug up his backyard and they didn't find anything.

He was never charged. He's 87 serving a life sentence in a federal prison. I think he died in like 2009 or so. But on his record, he had already been arrested for killing people three other times. Yeah, but they were always prostitutes. But when he was asked by a reporter later, he said, I didn't do those crimes, but I hated women so much. He almost was like, I wish I had. Wow. Yeah. Wow, that's crazy.

So it's still an open case. Maybe I called the crime hotline in the county and asked if they had searched the DNA. To get an update? And they like didn't know what the fuck I was talking about and I felt like an idiot. Hey, at least you tried. I wonder how you do find out about stuff like that. I think you have to be some kind of authority.

I don't think they'll just give that out. Let's find out about that. Can someone who's like in forensics find out if that? Yeah, or just people that are listening, if you want to be a sleuth, try to find out updates on the freeway phantom murders. The last thing I saw was like they're trying to test the DNA and then nothing. Not even like there was no match or it was inconclusive. I mean, I'm just curious. It's well, and also it's just that it's such a quagmire of like DNA and testing and all

that stuff. It's like, there are some places where it takes years. Yeah, I mean, yeah, especially places where they have high crime. That's not their priority. And this guy's probably dead, whoever it is. Right. But these people, but the families deserve answers. And that's the point is that families deserve answers

just as much as any other family. That is so sad and horrible. Yeah. Awful. I mean, as I was rereading through the details of the case to do this, I'm just shocked over and over again and so amazed that there's no updates in this case. It seems like it should be solved now.

Yes. Thank you very much. Like, let's get back to this. I have two corrections from my story. One is that the suspect Robert Askins died in prison in 2010, not 2009, like I stated in the episode. And through the episode, I mispronounced one of the victims names. I called her Brenda Woodward, but her last name was actually Woodard. So my apologies there. And also, if you're interested in this case, which you should be, it's fucking fascinating. Let's shed more light on it. Our friends over at Tenderfoot TV put out a limited series podcast about this case called

Freeway Phantom. So definitely check that out. They make such good work over there. I definitely want to listen to that. I do too. Yeah. It deserves the deepest dive and like, yeah. Yeah. Fresh eyes. All right. Well, let's get into Karen's fucking horrible story. This is the story of Anders Bering Brevik. And just a warning, this story is about a mass

shooting. So take some precautions if you need to. about a mass shooting, so take some precautions if you need to. This podcast is brought to you in part by Squarespace. Hey, Canada, as the season changes, it's time to refresh your wardrobe and more importantly, your online presence. And Squarespace is here to help you build the perfect website. They make creating and managing a website easy with Squarespace's new design intelligence. Combining 20 years of expertise and AI, you can build a stunning personalized website that fits your unique needs. Streamline your workflow and grow your business. Send invoices, get paid and

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retail experiences without complexity. That's Shopify.com slash murder. Goodbye. All right. Do you want to hear my, this week's my favorite murder? Yes, please. This is one I've wanted to do for a while. And I have to say, when I was looking up the different ones that I wanted to do for a while and I have to say when I was looking up the

different ones that I wanted to do today, I am very tired from my work, having to work and do things, do homework as well. I know. I'm not used to it. I'm kind of more of a lady of leisure. But I realized that all the ones I want to do are episodes of I Survived that I've seen that I loved. And I was like, I can't just keep retelling I Survived stories.

Can't you? I guess I can though, because I did again. And if you add little details in that they didn't add in. Right. Well, because that's all firsthand account. So it's basically the person saying this is like what it was like for me to go through it. But I just love that show so much because they are amazing. The stories themselves are crazy and amazing.

I'm not going to watch it because I just want to hear from you. Okay. The stories. Oh, that's perfect. Then I'll never have to bust myself again. But they did a special on I survived of the Norway attacks. I don't know if you remember those but they were the attacks on July 22nd in 2011 where Anders Berring Breivik who was a crazy fucking right wing fascist lunatic racist asshole first blew up a government building in Oslo and then went on to an island that had a summer camp.

I remember this horrifying. Go on. All right. So there is, I can't remember, I couldn't find the actual season and episode number, but if you look up the Norway attacks I survived, they have a special episode where it's four different kids who are on the island who survived these attacks. Also they speak perfect English.

Oh my God, what? Oslo is like, isn't it where the, it's the most peaceful place in the fucking world. Not since World War II had they had violence like this in their country. It also has the most beautiful people. My college roommate, Kristin, was obsessed with Norway and she went there one summer. She talked about it constantly and she showed me these pictures. She's like, we went there and we went to this music festival and everyone was just like a gorgeous blonde model. They are truly amazing. So yeah, it's pretty great. I mean, they've got it down. But of course, there's always got to be an asshole to ruin things. So this guy,

Anders Bering Brevik, he drove a van with a bomb made of fertilizer and fuel oil, which was similar to the Oklahoma bombing, Oklahoma City bombing. He went and drove that and parked it next to the building where the office of the Prime Minister, Jens Stoltenberg, was and that van blew up. It killed eight people and it injured 209, 12 of them very seriously. Luckily fewer people than normal were in the area because it was during in July so most people that's the vacation month for Norwegians and it was a Friday afternoon so government people were gone for the day. Because he was he had posted a video on YouTube the day before where he was wearing a scuba suit

and holding AK-47 and talking about he wanted to rid his nation of Muslims. Oh, wow. Yeah, the Muslims are the problem, you fucking psychopath. You fucking terrorist. So okay, so he does this hideous bombing, all of Oslo is just going nuts because it doesn't happen there. It does not happen there. And then less than two hours later, this guy Brevik, he's dressed up like a cop.

Yeah. That's not fair. Like, I call bullshit on that. It's the creepiest worst that thing where you immediately have the trust of people and you're manipulating that trust. So he gets on a ferry and he takes the ferry over to the island of Utoia. I'm going to pronounce it like a dirty American and as I will every other word in this article that is basically sounds like me reading an IKEA catalog

It's going to be that bad. I wonder if any murderer has ever taken a fairy to his to his Murder place, you know what I mean? Yeah, it seems almost like maybe that should be next week's theme Yeah, I should have taken a like like a moat like what's a what are the ones where you stand up and roam across the, Oh, like a gondola. A jet ski. Oh, okay. Like a jet ski. Something, but a fucking ferry. He had to jump on the ferry with all the other commuters. So he goes over to this, a summer camp, the average age of the campers are 18. No, why?

The Norwegian Youth Labor Party. So it's basically, it would be like if a bunch of young Democrats. And there was a lot of children that were related to Higher-ups in the government? Yes, government workers and people that were, sorry. So he was, no you're right. he was sending a message strictly to these people which like When has that ever worked? When are people ever gonna be like, okay? Yeah, I mean here's the thing

If your plan is to kill people's children, you're the bad guy. Sorry Anyway, yeah, I'm doing it again So he goes over onto the island of Utoa. He is dressed like a cop and he tells them they hear about the bombing in Oslo, which is of course like it's a national emergency. Totally. So he as dressed as a police officer goes to say that he's come for a routine check because there's all these diplomat and politicians, children on this island. So he's there to check if everybody's okay.

So he meets with Monica, a woman named Monica Boise, who is the camp leader and the island hostess and she, there is also a man who is the security officer on the island named Trond Bernsten. And he was also an off duty cop. Oh, please do something. Um, he killed Brevet killed both of them immediately. I was going to be like, maybe this guy. Yeah, no. So he basically, he gets on, gets access to the island immediately meets with the people in charge, takes out the adults in charge.

How surprised do you have to be to have that happen to you? Like, mom, before you die. Oh my God, it's the last thing you expect. And so he goes down. So in this episode of I Survived, the kids tell the story. But there was a lot of kids, they had gathered everybody up to tell them

that this bombing had happened in Oslo. So then there were still people sitting on this big kind of outside area, kind of standing around and talking about it. And this guy shows up dressed as a cop and he calls everyone around, asks them to gather up and then just start shooting. And so, so the kids have, it's like they've just gotten this terrible news. Then this starts happening. They have no idea what's going on. How come?

Like you don't even know to run because it's so surreal. It's so surreal. That's what they all say. And he's dressed like a policeman. Totally. So on top of it, they don't understand what's happening. Yeah, because they probably still think he's a policeman. It's not like you're like, oh, this guy lied.

Right, exactly. And also you're far away enough. So if you're seeing it happen, like they think, is this some sort of huge prank or is it an emergency? Some of the kids said that on the other parts of the island, because they did have, it wasn't strange that there would be gunshots on the island because they were out in nature and they said that wasn't a weird thing. Yeah, like that didn't surprise them, but then it was when they heard screaming that they realized something bad was happening.

This island is also very small. Yeah. So for the next hour and a half, no, yep. This guy rampage walking and running around the island, picking kids off. So it's such a nightmare. So some kids hidden a freezer and there's, there's kids that told a story of hiding in a freezer, like five kids. He walked into the kitchen area all the way around and to the freezer, but didn't look inside and walked away.

And that's the reason they survived. And there's kids, there's article after article where kids tell stories like that, where they were in their bunk, they all went under mattresses or whatever, and they just held their breath and hid. And then there's other stories that these kids tell from I Survived where like they're hiding and their phone goes off because the parents are calling to see if they're okay. And that's what gives them away. It's bone chilling. This guy just walks around picking off kids. I always want to know like I always immediately think when I hear stories like that or like Columbine or school shootings, where would I be in that room? Where would I hide?

Where would I be? Yes. You're never going to know if it's the right place to go or not. Well, and also when you're in a panic situation like that, you're just going to make do with the best thing that's near you. It's just luck. It's dumb luck and random fate. It's terrible. The other thing too is he had enough time that he was going around, he shot kids and then there were some kids who were just laying there pretending to be dead. He had enough time to go back around and double check and shoot them if they weren't dead. So it's fucked. So some

kids had places to hide. Some kids would come out of the places where they were hiding and then realize that the guy wasn't gone yet. So they would hide for half an hour and then think it must be all clear. And it's just because they weren't hearing screaming anymore. You guys don't leave your hiding place until a real cop comes. I don't know. But how would you know? I mean, I wish as I was saying that I was like, I know. This is why I mean, this is like, this is such a terrible worst case scenario, because it's also in a place where nothing, they don't have school shootings, they don't have stuff like that happen. It's not common at all And then they're also

It's just a kids camp It's like such so much innocence that it that like it's just the most surreal a bunch of kids jump into the lake And start swimming away across and now it's really cold water really cold water and water, really cold water. And thank God there were people that were on the islands across and in the houses that heard stuff, heard gunshots, heard screaming. I first thought that the gunshots must have been firecrackers, whatever, but there was one guy who had a big boat who heard it and got a call to say something bad is happening. You have to go over to that island. He thought it was a prank, but went anyway.

Oh my goodness. God bless. He saved 30 kids. Holy shit. Because he just went. He was like, this sounds like nothing, but I will go anyway. Totally. There were kids in the water.

He was throwing out life jackets to kids who he couldn't fit on the boat. They did like four trips. He did that. He was a local named Marcel Gieffi, is how I'm going to think it's pronounced. He was a German resident that was staying at a camping area on the mainland. And he got his boat out there. Then there was another 40 kids were saved by Heggy, H-E-G-E, Dolan and Toral Hansen, who was a married couple who were holidaying nearby. This Wikipedia was clearly written by a foreign person using words like holidaying. Dolan was helping from land, so kids were swimming up on the land, she was getting them to safety while Hansen and another neighbor were making boat trip rescues.

Then there was a man named Casper Oleg who made three trips to the island in his boat and Oh, sorry Casper is the one who thought initially it was a prank but one anyway altogether 150 kids swam away from the island and were pulled out of the fjord by campers on the opposite shore So that's an eye it always makes me feel better when you hear that, like the other citizens taking action and helping out. But the thing was this motherfucker, once he saw the kids were getting into the water, went down and just started strafing the water. So he was in berserker mode as they like to say on last podcast on the left. He was in the mode where he was, no one was going to live. How did they stop him? Um, basically the cops finally showed up after an hour and a half Why did it take so long?

Because they were at the other they were at the bomb they were at the other bombing and they didn't get word and all there It was a bunch of different stuff. But yeah, it basically just took them that that was how far away it was and how long it took They they finally took them, that was how far away it was and how long it took. They finally got on, it was a bunch of cops in full riot gear and SWAT type gear went on and just made an announcement saying put your gun down. And I think at that point he was done. Because they said he had made a couple of calls too. So I think it was that kind of thing where it was like he made his first round and then it was just like he was coming down off of it. And he was ready to put his message out too, probably. It was like not this wasn't just to kill people. This was like a message and it was this kind of thing of like we need to take our country back

Yeah, and this is how we're gonna do it We're gonna deliver the message to these politicians and to these people who are quote-unquote allowing things to happen So at the end of the day Brevik had killed 68 children outright 68 children That's more that was in my high school graduating class. That makes me so sick. It's terrible. And then he injured 110, 55 of them seriously.

The 69th victim died in the hospital two days later. So he was arrested. He was examined by a court-appointed forensic psychiatrist, and he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. And they concluded that he was psychotic at the time of the attacks and criminally insane. But they, when it came time to have him go to court, they did a second psychiatric evaluation and found that he was not criminally insane, that he was fully aware of what he was doing. It was planned and it had been planned for years because not only did he post that YouTube video the night before, but he had been for years had been talking and ranting

about this xenophobic shit of we need to get these people out and of course he had a manifesto. So they find the manifesto. And there are sections that he ripped off directly from the Unabomber without attributing. And he just replaced leftists, which was Unabomber, with cultural Marxists. When he got on to, when he first started shooting the kids, he kept yelling, today is the day you die, Marxists. So he was accusing everybody of being communists or whatever.

Man, my children. I mean, not that adults are any better, but it's just like. Because that's gonna send the fastest, worst message. And it's also, that's a person who wants to do evil Yeah, this isn't just you know, you send it you you park a van That has a bomb in it next to a government building and you're trying that's chaos and mayhem. You're trying to create And you're walking away from it. It's not like you're point-blank shooting like but when but that is like he took it to the next level because he

wanted He's evil and he wanted evil to be done Which is like what do you who do you think you are to protect anybody from anything or pretend? That's what your intentions are. Yeah, when what you are doing is killing children of your own country That's that's where your argument falls apart. So he also in this manifesto said he was an admirer of the Tea Party movement of America. Oh, well there you go. So you know, just know that. Know who you're appealing to. On August 24th, he was found to be stained by that panel of judges and sentenced to preventative

detention, which is a sentence of 21 years in prison that can be repeatedly extended by five years as long as the person is considered a threat to society. That's not long enough. He should have been fucking. It's the maximum sentence allowed by Norwegian law. And the only way to get to allow for life imprisonment is to get the 21-year sentence and then re-up it every five years. All right, we're back. And this story still is just so heartbreaking.

It's a horror movie. I mean, it truly is. It's a horror movie. I mean it truly is. It's a horror movie and as a story it's like a person who tried to plan the most painful, hurtful, scary thing that he could do and then he did it. Yeah. All right, are there any updates Karen? No major updates. So Bravik has been held in isolation since he began his prison sentence in 2012. So he tried to sue the state saying that his human rights were being breached according to the justice ministry. So it's inhumane to hold him in isolation. But the reason he's being held in

isolation is because he did a thing that people can't even fathom or wrap their head around. It's just like, I don't know. All right, well, let's turn this around, and we can end this Rewind episode on what we would call the podcast now, if we were naming it after a quote from the episode and not a weird number system that's falling apart already.

That's clearly falling apart because we're basing it on what the duggars are doing. That's... The wheels have come off the fucking car, but we're still driving it. Look, 2024 will not hold up, you know, eight and a half years from now. Let me just... That's just a thing people need to realize is just like all of this as we evolve it We can't look back and go we did great people. We will never do that. That's our promise to you We really can't but I think it's interesting

This is such a clear episode where we needed a good producer to go Hey, if you're gonna do this story if Karen's gonna do this story, then we have to do a slightly different story so it's not so horrifying in this show. Totally. Totally. But didn't do it this time. Nope. Too early.

Yeah. You have two jobs. I think I had a couple weird gigs. Oh yeah, you had some stuff. You were doing that, weren't you doing like a streaming thing or some sort of like video thing for your other podcast? Oh yeah, that's right. We were doing like a streaming thing.

We were busy. We were busy ladies. Oh, the suggestions for the titles, encourage to jaywalk. That's a great one. Georgia said that when she was talking about being a kid and walking alone on this. I hear that. It's so true. J-walk. You'll be quicker. Just run, yeah. Get quick home. So J-walk.

Yeah. Pitch hike. Get a ride from a stranger if you want to get home quicker. You're five, so run out in the street where they can't see you. I'm pretty good at J-walking now, I will say. And then this is the first time I think I said, Sweet Baby Angels, referring to the victims of the freeway phantom. Pretty wild.

Well, I mean, sometimes we just have to review episodes that are just a bummer in every way. Yeah. But we did that. And thank you guys for listening. Stick around for more rewind episodes. We'll keep doing them if you like them. Yeah, that's right. Thanks for showing up.

Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?