Newcomers: Scorsese, with Nicole Byer and Lauren Lapkus - Gangs of New York (w/ Griffin Newman & David Sims)

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

This week, Lauren and Nicole are joined by very special guests Griffin Newman and David Sims (Blank Check) to debrief Scorsese’s 2002 film Gangs of New York starring Leonardo DiCaprio, Daniel Day-Lewis, and Cameron Diaz. Beloved by some and missing-the-mark for others, the group discusses this early-aughts epic while also getting into Lauren’s childhood production of Les Misérables, the unique and powerful smell of 1860’s New York, as well as officially define what an iPhone Face is. Follow Griffin: Instagram, TwitterFollow David: TwitterNext week tune in for our next episode covering The Aviator (2004)! Like the show? Rate Newcomers 5 stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and leave a review for Nicole and Lauren to read on the pod!Follow the podcast on Letterboxd.Advertise on Newcomers via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a HITGUM original. Winner to 2002 Golden Globe Awards and nominated for 10 Academy Awards, including Best Picture. Tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him, For the foreign hordes! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Everything you see belongs to me. The newsboys and quick thieves and blind tigers here in paradise. Everybody owes, everybody pays. What do you think you're doing? I'm dancing. So why aren't you dancing with him? I'm not in love with him.

There's more of us coming off these ships every day. 15,000 Irish a week. Get all of us together and we ain't got a gang. We got an army. Challenger. Challenger accepted. I took the father. together we ain't got a gang we got an army challenge challenge accepted I told the father now I'll take the Sun I give my word this will all be finished tomorrow Okay, I'm Nicole Byer. I'm Lauren Lapkus.

And boy oh boy, this season we're working our way through the filmography of the esteemed director, Martin Scorsese. Also, producer Allie and producer Anya are here. We're doing 10 episodes this season, so we have picked all the essential movies of Scorsese's super long and prolific career, but of course, we can't get to everything, so today we're gonna be discussing the film based on Herbert Asbury's book

of the same name, Gangs of New York. Wow. I didn't know it was a book. Well, Gangs of New York is available for free on Mac's Amazon Prime Hulu or for a fee on any other major streamer. We're going to spoil it. So if you want to watch it, you should. But if you don't, keep listening. We are so excited for our guests today. Griffin Newman is an actor and comedian known for playing Orko in Netflix's

Masters of the Universe and Watto in the cult favorite The George Lucas Talk Show. And David Simms is the staff film critic for The Atlantic. Together, they are the dynamic duo that hosts the incredible podcast Blank Check, which reviews directors' complete filmographies episode to episode. Thanks for being here, you guys. Thank you so much for having us.

Yeah. Oh my God. The Bowery boys were here. We're, we're a couple Bowery boys. We're a couple died in the wool New Yorkers. We're here to tell you about how much more dangerous New York City used to be. Oh my God. I know you could have gotten stabbed at any moment, it seems. In the 1800s, you want to buy a beer, you had to pay for it with an ear.

That was the price of a beer. It was also so dirty back then. What is your guys's relationship to all Mardis? First of all, you know, a lot of people mispronounce his name. It's so true. You're really nailing it. That's the both of you just really clearly. We both really got it. I know.

Yeah. I think I said Scor-ma-la-ba-see-me-da. I don't know what I was saying. No, that's just like, you just ran and you're kind of like exhaling. Like it has to come out of you like that You know, I this is the first Marty movie I saw in the theater I just realized that I'm It was the same for me it had to have been yeah Yeah for his other stuff in theater, have you guys covered all of his stuff on your show?

No, I mean you you said the thing, that we cover complete filmographies, which is a reason that Scorsese and a lot of other seminal filmmakers are uncovered on our show, because it's like, if we were to do Marty, it would take us six months. Oh, okay. It's a lot of movies.

Now see, we can slap it out in 10 weeks. We can do a quick slap out. Efficiency, I mean, we should learn some lessons from you guys. David, I truly also, we would like curl into a ball, ripping our hair up, going like, OK, so which music documentaries do we have to cover? Which ones are on Patreon? Which ones are on MainFeed? Which ones are essential to his career art?

Versus just like hitting the big the big notes. Well, you know, the benefit of us not knowing anything is that we don't know what we're missing. So it's just. Yeah, simply don't. Sure. Wait, have you two seen all of his movies? Sorry, Lauren. I have seen every Martin's Course says.

You've seen every one. Feature. I don't think I've seen all the documentaries. Not to brag, but I've seen every movie. Have you not, Griff? What's missing for you? No, I think I've seen every movie. Have you, Notgryff? What's missing for you? No, I think I've seen the majority, but I haven't seen all of them.

Wow. Even the shorts? I have seen the shorts. I've seen the shorts. I have that disc. We have the disc. Yeah, I literally just haven't seen, like I never saw the Rolling Stones music movie.

I never saw that one. That one apparently sucks. Everyone says that one sucks ass. I never saw that George Harrison one he did. Like, that's it. I haven't seen those. I've even seen all the stuff he shot of Fran Leibowitz just sitting in a diner booth going like, the Arcas used to read more books.

I hate the subway. You know, all that stuff. But that's, ooh. I did watch all of that, and I loved that. Of course, that's great. It's so good. While Marty's just sitting there going like, ah, ha, ha, Fran, you're crazy.

I mean, it's good stuff. That is Quietly. Nicole, you should watch that. Yeah, Quietly, one of the best things he's ever been associated with, and I would say, is more newcomers coded than anything else in his filmography. It's so good.

I think I watched one of his short films and I think it was about a man shaving, but I also feel like I'm making this up. The big shave. Well, that's a short film, The Big Shave. That's one of his early ones. Wait, really? Oh yeah.

That sounds so fake. I did not believe you. It did and I was like, I think I'm lying. It's an allegory for the Vietnam War. Okay, that's, is it? Yeah. This is bloody. He shaves too much.

Oh, we didn't even, why did we, we shouldn't even been shaving in the first place. Wow, I didn't know there were shorts. Yeah. I'm late to the game. I mean, this is like, you ask us what our relationship is to him, and I feel like David and I are joking about it, because the answer is we are like so thoroughly

the classic type of Scorsese nerd film boy. Yeah. I love him very much. Yeah. And I'm just like... That was so genuine. Anytime he complains about the kids today, I'm like, he's right and everyone should shut up.

But also, I remember seeing this movie in theaters when I was 13 years old, and I was like, well, here we go. It's finally time for Marty to win his Oscar. And I hadn't seen any of his movies, but it was like, if you're our type of film nerd who's growing up obsessively following the Oscars, you're basically inheriting the narrative of like, this is the goat, this is our living legend. This is the guy who's

at the absolute nexus of like highest art and popular culture. Like Spielberg's a little too mainstream and these guys are a little too, Lynch is too up his own ass and Scorsese is like undeniable, you know? Yeah. Oh. Okay, this is, so what, did you see this movie when it first came out? Yeah. And did you watch it again for this or you're well versed?

Okay, so what do you feel? I've seen it many times. What do you feel? You love it, you've watched it many times. You go first, David. So this is one of my favorite Marty movies, which is I think that is so fascinating. Wait, what are your top? What are your top two Marty movies? You want my top two? Oh, I can call up a letter box list. I mean,

you know, like I'm ready. My talk to are probably good fellows and probably good fellows and after hours, I get you guys are probably not doing this was one of your top ones. It's one of my top. He's got a lot of good movies. Yeah, they're all tied for number one. Okay, I get it. I get it, but this is this might be, you know, six or seven for me, Griff. I don't know where you have it in your Marty rankings, Griff, but that's, that's high in a big one for me. Yeah. Yeah.

I know you love this movie and watch it a lot. I saw it when it came out. I watched this movie a lot. The hype for this movie was so out of control. I'm sure we will talk about this, but it was just like the lead up to this film was masterpiece incoming. Like the bar for this movie was if it's anything less than one of the greatest movies of all time, it's going to be seen as a disappointment. And I think that was kind of how it was seen. Everyone was sort of like he got close. What a shame.

This was his big Oscar swing and it didn't quite work. And then the aviator is like, he's trying it again. And then the weirdness is the departed felt like him saying like, you know what, I'm done chasing the Oscar. I'm ready to make one of my kind of movies again. And then they gave him all the Oscars. But this movie, when it came out was like, he's getting the biggest budget he's ever had. This is the film he's been waiting to make for like 25 years

He's coaxed like one of the greatest living actors out of retirement He's sort of like anointing DiCaprio as the new guy. I was gonna say Cameron Diaz because she's retired. Yeah, I was like Leonardo DiCaprio was retired But like DiCaprio took a big break, you know, this was like yeah, he'd only really done one movie Since yeah. Yeah, he was a lot of hype around him. He does Titanic then he does the beach Which that was weird, right don't like it's a very weird movie. Never seen it and then just him on the beach Digital and like things happen that are like weird. I don't know anything. I mean your summary isn't wrong. Nicole. Essentially it is a movie about him on the beach, having a nice time. Things go wrong, but I

say the main conflict is that he's like I'm having a nice time. Can everyone please chill out around me? Yeah, he finds a really cool beach. He has a good time for a while. People get a little too intense about it and he's like I guess I gotta go. It's kind of fucks too many women. Okay, a lot of sex. He does a kind of drugs classic ugly American. There's a scene where he hallucinates and thinks he's in a video game, but like I'm aware of. I feel like super Nintendo. Yeah, he's walking around like he's

donkey Kong with like a power bar above his head. You'd love this scene. You know, I think I have to see it. Yeah. That you're selling it real well to me. It's interesting. But that was like his post-Titanic, like the audience is going to follow Leo to anything. He makes that, the audience is like, you might be on probation.

The beach is too far. Yeah, and then he's like, I'm doing Catch Me If You Can and Gangs of New York. Gangs of New York takes so long that this ends up coming out a week before Catch Me If You Can, but he made them back to back. And it was like, here are his first movies in two years, and this is like the two greatest, you know,

kind of most iconic American directors claiming him as like their new leads. Dane LeLewis hadn't made a movie in a couple years. Cameron Diaz was like about as hot as she could be at that moment. But everything was like, this is the one he's been trying to make since the 70s and they're finally letting him do it. They pushed it back an entire year. And I And I remember going to see it with my mom, having very little understanding of the Scorsese context,

then probably after this, circling back and watching a bunch of his movies on video. But my take at the time as a 13-year-old was like, everything with a young cast sucks and it's really boring. And anything with the older character actors and Daniel Day-Lewis is like the coolest shit I've ever seen. Anything with the young cast sucks and is really boring. And anything with the older character actors and Daniel Day-Lewis is like the coolest shit I've ever seen.

Anything that's like old guys with a lot of face doing accents I love. And anything that's like the young hot leads I'm so bored by. And I've never rewatched it and I've always been meaning to. And I was like, I'm gonna come back to this as like a dude in his mid thirties who now has a movie podcast. And I'm gonna have like a more nuanced interesting take and I watched it and I was just like I basically landed in the same place

Yeah, I feel like I can Express it slightly better now But I but I do think there's like the world of this movie. I find fascinating I think this movie looks amazing. Like I do love the dirt and the smelliness. And anytime it gets into the hard history of like, that's so weird. Like all the little sort of like Wikipedia sidebars of this movie where they're explaining subcultures.

Anyone in this cast born before 1970, I think is giving a great performance. And then everyone else feels like a kid playing dress up to me. Like it reminds me of when I was like doing school plays and we had to like do Shakespeare and all of us were just turned to each other and be like, we don't know what we're saying, right?

Yeah, I remember we did a production of Les Mis that was extremely truncated when I was in fourth and fifth grade when I was in fourth and fifth grade. This was a fourth and fifth grade. It was like a student from Northwestern came to our school to teach us to like lead this. It was probably some project he had to do. Was it Les Mis Junior?

It was, it was, it was just, it was Les Mis. But I never knew what was going on. And I was like in the background holding a shovel being like, what? Like I just like. That's so funny. Another thing where everyone's dirty too. Everyone's like got dirt on their face in Les Mis.

The dirtiness of this movie, like we are coming off of like feeling so great about these movies. And I feel like that's, that was. You've been on a positive run. Okay, yeah, this was a hard turn. It's just so different, first of all. And I think because it's, maybe because it's a book that he's adapting and that,

but he did adapt, wasn't Goodfellas a book too? Yeah. So I don't know. Nicholas DePeltz. Did you just know that? Pelagi. I did. Pelagi, okay, that sounded good. I just remembered. Wait you just know that? Peledgy. I did. Peledgy, okay.

It sounded good. I just remembered. Wait, what is it? It's not Nicholas Peltz? No, it's Nick. No, Peledgy. Who's Peltz? Who fights?

Pelts is the guy who's fighting for control of Disney, whose daughter is married to- Brooklyn Beckham. Victoria Beckham's son. Brooklyn Beckham. Yeah. Unfortunately, I know that. I didn't even know that.

You guys knew a lot about that. Leonardo DiCaprio and Cameron Diaz looked too contemporary. And I feel like there was some vanity going on. Yeah, my problem. Because I was like, you got your face fucking branded and I can't see it. I know. He said you have to like walk around with this.

It was gone. It was gone. And it was gone. I was like, you got healed up? His skin is too good. I thought that was shocking. I was like, it healed really well, His skin is too good. I thought that was shocking. I was like, it healed really well,

considering they don't have like bandages and they have, they're like the dirtiest rats I've ever seen. It should be the most infected shit in the world. And instead this guy like doesn't have pores. Yeah, he looks fantastic. He looks unbelievable. Well, I like by the end he had like little beads

or something in his hair and his hair was in a little bun. I said, OK, oh, he found some moose or some jail. I didn't. Yeah, I didn't like when he had that little braid. I didn't know what was happening. His little Jedi padwan braid. Yeah. You're asking about the book thing. Yes. See, look at this journey you've been on. I know. I know.

Oh, my God. Can you believe all the stuff we know now? It's crazy. Crazy. you've been on. I know. I know. Oh my God. Can you believe all the stuff we know now? It's crazy. Crazy. No, the book thing is interesting because that was like part of the struggle with this movie is it's a it's it's like a like a historical book. It's not like a narrative. I have read it. It's a it's an awesome book, but it is very much like, so this is what New York was like in the 19th century. There was this, there was this, like there were these gangs, like it's not, there's no hero and there's no one to follow. I mean, there's all this stuff that's in this movie

is from the book, but you know, like not in a fictionalized narrative grafted onto the sort of details of the book, but it even felt that way to me a little bit that there kind of was no story. Like it kind of felt like, okay, I guess I care what happens to him. But part of that was because I Googled to understand what was happening as I was watching it. And I was like, okay, I guess I care about his character. Like it was just kind of like, well, we'll get into all that. Let's do our quick segment called Spotted, okay? This is our segment where we see if today's movie

has any of the following celeb sightings. Do we get one of Marty's boys? Do we get Robert De Niro, Harvey Keitel, Joe Pesci, Leonardo DiCaprio? This is the intro of Leo. And do we get Marty's mom, Catherine Scorsese? No, I wish we did. I don't think so.

It would be amazing. I don't think so. It would be amazing. I don't think people got that old at that time. I wanna say she passed at this point. Everyone dies at 50. Yeah. Yeah. And then do we see Marty himself? Yep. Yes. We do?

Wait, I keep missing him. Fancy New Yorker. Cameron robs him. He's like, where's Waldo? He's the fancy man that Cameron robs at one point. Oh, oh my god. She sneaks into his house, right? Oh, yeah.

They're the uptown family. I need to look at that again. Because when they're like women. They're having tea. Oh, wow, yeah. Truly did not. I got to really up my game on knowing what Marty looks like. Did he have his glasses on?

He doesn't. No, but he's got those caterpillars. You know, he's got the two black eyebrows. The Peter Gallagher's, yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, let's take a quick break and then we'll jump in with the gangs of New York. and then we'll jump in with the gangs of New York. If you're wondering what a Nord VPN is, I'll tell you.

VPN stands for Virtual Private Network, a service that protects your internet connection and online privacy. A VPN creates an encrypted tunnel for your data, protect your online identity by hiding your IP address, and allow you to use public Wi-Fi hotspots safely. I'm using a Nord VPN myself. And honestly, it's very easy to use. You connect with one click to enable Auto Connect for zero click protection.

It has amazing speed. Nord VPN is one of the fastest VPNs out there and it supports every major platform. Windows, Android, iOS, Linux, even Android TV. You can switch your virtual location to access apps and websites in other countries. Get an exclusive NordVPN deal here at nordvpn.com slash newcomers. N-O-R-D-V-P-N dot com slash newcomers. It's risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. Link is in the episode description. We're back with Gangs of New York. Guess what?

It was released December 20th, 2002, just in time for Christmas. And then we had a group of friends writing, Jay Cox, Stephen Zalanan, and then Kenneth Lonergan. Yeah, it's gotta be wild having a last name like Cox. Yeah, poor Jay. C-O-C-K-S. Yeah, it's not spelled differently. It's not C-O-X. I think that one, you kind of just let it go. Yeah, that's fine. But this one is, it's, it's the plural of penises. Yeah.

That's one of the most famous, one of the most famous film critics to film writers ever. He was a big, you know, that's kind of great though, because it's like when someone's a critic and then you're like, you try it. Then he's like, how about I did and it's great. Or whatever. But Scorsese made it, bitch. Scorsese straight up hired him to write the screenplay in 1979. What? What?

That's how long it took and this movie went through like every studio. That's why the expectations were out of control. But also- That's what's wrong with it. I often think if a director spends too long trying to make a movie, it can never live up to the energy. There are so many examples of that. I can't name them now, but I know that this has happened where you're like,

oh my God, they tried to make that for 20 years. It was like, why do they keep trying? I think it's especially tough with this where it's clearly like, well, we have to have this, right? We got it, you know, like, well, we have to have this, right? We got it. You know, like, oh, we have to have Tammany Hall and we have to have the firemen and we have to, you know, and it's like, whatever, like, you know, I'm sure Jay Cox is just sitting there writing things down like, okay, okay, include this, include this. And it's like, but also there should be a hero and a love story and a villain and a,

you know, like it's, it's, it's's it's also like the term to throw out another term that now exists in the newcomers lexicon you almost end up with this kind of like multiverse thing where if you're Martin Scorsese and you're getting ready to actually make this movie you're like well this movie has at different points over the last two decades been a billion different things in my mind I've got different versions at different times, at different budget levels, different drafts with different writers. And like there are accounts that on set on the day, every morning, everyone would get to set and Scorsese would just be in his trailer with like 40 different

scripts picking like, do I take elements from this and elements from this? Oh no. This is something I've experienced before. And it's it's it's scary because you're like, you could be having a lot of fun in every scene and feeling like every scene is really good. And then it's like when it's all coming together like, yeah, because it's like so much pressure every day to like figure out what you're doing,

which should not be what you're thinking about when you're about to start shooting. That's interesting. It's so interesting, because I really like, Goodfellas is one of my new favorite movies. I love it. It's so seamless. And this movie, I just kept thinking,

that's an interesting set. Oh, that's a this, that's a that. I was kind of looking at all the pieces that we're making, as opposed to just being swept up by the story. Also, Goodfellas felt of the period. This did not feel of the period he was shooting. It felt like it was made in 2002. Like the like slow-mo fighting to like nickelback.

I was like, what are we, what? This is interesting. That was so trendy. I was so confused. I was like, that's so not his style from what I have now learned from the few things I've seen. But I'm like, I'm just going like, this feels like it's trying to be trendy.

And that just seemed weird. I put this on last night for the first time in like 22 years almost. And I had the exact same experience for the first five minutes of the movie that I felt watching as a 13-year-old where I was like, oh, this is the greatest movie ever made. The first couple minutes with Neeson and the kid and going in the underground. And then the door kicking open and you see the snow and the introduction of Dale Day Lewis and I'm like, I'm here all day for this. Please give me seven hours of this.

And then the moment where he starts doing the like juddery shutter speed in the fighting, it goes into what I just have to call ba-wit-a-ba mode, where the music starts sounding like Kid Rock, it starts looking like a Kid Rock video from this era. There are many theories, there were famously a lot of battles between Martin Scorsese and infamous hero of Hollywood, Harvey Weinstein,

over this movie and the final cut and a lot of them related to how violent the movie could be. And I wonder how much of that editing style in the opening sequence was to mitigate the goriness and kind of abstract it. But from you- It's kind of silly almost. There's like a guy dies and he's like,

oh, his eyes like cross these. Also, there's no blood in the beginning of the fight and there's only blood towards the end. And I kind of was like, wait, but Marty shows so much blood. I'm kind of missing the violence. But like from that moment, I start to question the movie and then watching it again, I'm like every 10 minutes I'm in and out there's stuff in it that I think is unbelievable.

And then there's stuff that does feel like weirdly 2002, specifically in a way. I don't really think his other movies are. Like even every other era of Scorsese, he is doing something kind of unique that is not in conversation with the trends of movies at that time, which I love about him. He's always doing his own thing. And I don't know how much of this was like, that is not in conversation with the trends of movies at that time, which I love about him.

He's always doing his own thing. And I don't know how much of this was like Weinstein just kind of beating him down to some extent, which he was famous for doing at this point. But yeah, I mean, here's my big take on this. And then I, David should make his case for why he keeps this movie. And then shut the fuck up. Yeah.

Scorsese also always says this thing that people interpret as like him being self-deprecating where he's like, I don't think I've ever made a movie with a plot. I don't think I know how to tell a story. Like he always says stuff like that. Oh, that's funny. People are like, what are you talking about? You're Martin Scorsese, one of the greatest filmmakers. But then you watch this movie and you compare it to his other movies.

And it is true that kind of like the beauty of his best films is that they're just kind of like the most interesting scenes. He's not interesting in doing A to B shit. Yeah. Yeah. But it's kind of why like, I mean, like Taxi Driver and thinking of Goodfell is like, that they're and even Raging Bull too, it's like, it's kind of just like these slice of life moments that make up a story. Like, you feel like there's a story because, but you're kind of,

you are watching someone go through their existence in a way. This guy is only showing you the most interesting scenes from any other movie. And he's cutting out like all the connective tissue, you know, he's only keeping in the things that feel like they have some honest energy to them. And he also, it rules, and he's also, better than almost anyone at building movies around unlikable people and making them deeply compelling. You know? And this is a movie where it feels like maybe

because of the size of the budget, the expectations, the pressure on it, it feels like he was trying to place a kind of normal story into the middle as a spine of what he really wanted to do. Where it's like, can I establish a kind of classical, like old Hollywood epic, here's the hero, the kid of the father who has to get vengeance,

and you have your pretty young movie stars and their romance, and that stuff to me doesn't feel perfunctory, but it's just like, all I want is for the camera to move over from them to John C. Reilly, like, I don't know, eating a rabbit with his bare teeth. Right. Right. Yeah, it does feel like you would get more of that,

like it was missing that feeling of like, any sort of the random little slices. Yeah, and I feel like all the other movies we've seen, like you said, are deeply unlikable people that you kind of root for. And I felt like Leonardo Caprio was just like, OK, whatever. And then Daniel Day-Lewis, I wasn't necessarily rooting for him. I thought he did a great job, but it wasn't like enough. I guess I wanted the story to be more about him

with Leonardo, like little dips in outs, but like, I guess in Goodfellas, I loved that there were so many characters, but it was Ray Leo in his movie. Yeah, and we don't like, that you don't know enough about Leo's character to get so invested. Like I understood that it was him.

So let's read a little bit of the summary so we can jump in and talk about the plot. But, and, and talk about that more. But so in the slum neighborhood of five points, Manhattan in 1846, two gangs have a final battle in paradise square, the nativist Protestant natives led by William, Bill, the butcher cutting who's Daniel J. Lewis and the Irish Catholic immigrant dead rabbits led by priest Valen Liam Neeson. Bill kills Valen and declares the dead rabbits outlawed. Having witnessed this Valens young son hides the knife that killed his father and is taken to an orphanage on Blackwell's Island. So like,

I'm kind of like already piecing together that this kid, this kid is seeing his dad be killed and he's pushed away and whatever. And then we quickly cut to 16 years later and like, okay, I assume that's him and he's now gonna try to do something. When I Googled to kind of like make sure I was on the right page, because I wasn't really sure who all, I don't feel like it was clear enough who all these different people were and why they were fighting.

I was like, so he's gonna try to infiltrate to like get revenge or whatever, which I almost was like, oh, it's sort of like mafia ish. Like it's sort of like mob ish, but it just didn't do it in that way. Like it's like he, it just felt kind of slow and like private that he's doing this the whole time. Like it didn't have like a sort of like tough energy to it. Do you know? I fully agree. Cause he didn't have to sneak around.

He kind of was just like, hello. And then he was like, I'm Bill The Butcher. Yeah. But David, you love this. And I want to hear more about why this is good. I'll try to be brief. I mean, I will say a lot of it, I love this movie despite its mess.

I do, I can't deny that like there's things about it that are very messy, which I just, is part of sort of the romance of the movie for me because it's set in a messy time, in a messy place, like, you know, and like Griffin's saying, so much of the movie is just Marty's like, I built these sets, we've recreated this lost, like, you know, history of New York, right?

You know, it used to look like this, and're just going to hang out in it and we're going to meet all kinds of like different people that were like vying for power in it. So like that's cool. I I'm fine with that and I agreed like where you have trouble with the movie. It sounds like for you guys and I think for most people it's like yeah, it's like how much am I supposed to care about Leo? He's kind of a whiny baby face. Like, you know, like his mission is sort of unclear through like, why doesn't he just like stab build a butcher or the many? Yeah, he has so many opportunities.

You know, yeah. And it's because like, that's not what it's about at all. Like the movie starts with like this giant war between, uh, you know, the, the Irish immigrants and the quote unquote nativists who are really just like people who got there a little earlier like everyone obviously is an immigrant, which is what score says he is kind of fascinated by like this idea of like what's American right and like who's you know who gets to be in charge and the minute Amsterdam meets build the butcher as a grown up just like us. We're just like completely transfixed by this guy who is like obviously evil. He's like this cackling, like circus madman with like a crazy mustache and a

metal eye and a stovepipe hat. And he talks, you know, insane. He's a talks crazy. I talks crazy. He's great. Um, and he's a good guy and he's got good ideas. Yeah, you're watching the movie and you feel that way. You're kind of like, I think the butcher rocks and this is just like score says he's like, this is the story of America for like 300 years. This is us being drawn to this like violence and nativism and like, you know, this this kind of leadership and it's the story of movies, which are what I make. And I love movies. This story, New York movies, right? You know, like it's you getting suckered

in by this like sort of magnificent, but kind of evil guy. Very evil. He's not kind of evil. He's like fully evil. Yeah. He loves throwing knives at people for fun. Yeah. He literally like exactly. He's not just going to like punch Leo in the face. He's like, let me stage an elaborate knife throwing circus act to like cuck him before I then punch him in the face and headbutt him like 80 times. Uh, but uh, like that, the, the sort of romance quote unquote between Leo and Bill the Butcher, that's what I love about Gangs of New York.

Yeah, okay, I can get behind that. But I know it's a hot take. Like I'm a hot takeer about this movie. We need that here. I also love like the history of New York City and like, I love the book and I love seeing all the, it's so funny to think about these guys in stovepipe hats called the Bowery boys. And it's like, these were the scariest people in New York. I know. Well, one thing I, I love thinking about with like that time period

and watching this, I was like, they think they're at like, and they were at like peak technology and like everything was like as good as it could be. And so they like feel like they're kind of killing it, which I guess like we feel now, and maybe it'll get so much better that we'll look back and be like, we really didn't know how good we could have it. But like, they're all like covered in dirt. They're like, they live like trash.

Dirty teeth. They're all like the stinkiest people. Ugh. And even like when, when like Leonardo, which we'll get to, but he like refuses to have sex with Cameron Diaz's character. And then I was like, cause she like, she like slept with other people

and she's like a prostitute or something. I was like, you, there's no way you're clean. Like, yeah, no one is clean. The sex probably stunk. Like, oh, and like the sort of when like when they have sex and it's like all sudden, I'm like, we need rags. We need to be clean.

Get the wet rag. We got to fuck. Just to go on a little bit more of the summary. So in 1862, 16 years later, Amsterdam returns to Five Points seeking revenge. He retrieves the knife that killed his father, an old acquaintance. Johnny, I don't know how to say his last name, played by Henry Thomas,

familiarizes himself with the local clans of gangs who all pay tribute to Bill, who remains in control of the territory. Amsterdam soon becomes attracted to the pickpocketer and grifter, Jenny Everdeen, played by Cameron D'Onoz, who I think has the best Irish accent I have ever heard, with whom Johnny is also infatuated with. So the accents were all over the place in this movie. Oh, a lot of choices were made. Well, I, like, Googled it, because I was like,

is Leonardo doing what? Like, I couldn't tell what was happening. And then I just kind of felt like... I found threads of people being like, it's because at this time it was a melting pot and like anybody's acts. Okay. So you kind of like everything is kind of like, okay, it's fine. Like cause everyone's doing different things. It was a time of choices. Everyone was kind of like, uh, I thought like this now, you know, like, right. It's when all that's happening and of course, and you do have build a butcher in the middle of it being like, well, I'm build a butcher. And you're like, what is that? Who talks like this? Like, but you just start cool with it.

But yeah, I would say most of the cast, it does feel like they are making a choice. I do love the sort of mishmash of it. Uh, and DiCaprio, I feel their like self-consciousness in this movie of being like, how hard should I commit to this? Am I allowed to go as like grungy as everyone else is? Is my job to be pretty? You know, do I need to be likable? Like they feel like the only two actors who are burdened with some sort of movie star pressure,

which also is probably not helped by their characters being less interesting. Yeah. They're being a kind of like story weight on them that the other characters don't have, where it's like, hey, guess what? You get to just be the craziest man who ever lived. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like her, you know, she was definitely like in so many movies at this time, but nothing like this. And so it's like, to many movies at this time, but nothing like this.

And so it's like to see her in this context, I'm sure that the pressure was on to deliver a certain thing, and I'm sure that was scary, honestly. Because she's such a rom-com, like Charlie's Angel, that kind of thing. And then to have to do this, which it would be really intimidating.

I mean, I'm not saying she didn't rise to the challenge, but I'm just like, I can just imagine that would feel like, oh God, I have to be like a 1800s sex worker now. And also this movie was so huge at the time and was seen as such a risky bet that there's just no way it's getting made without two conventionally huge young movie stars. Like, I just don't think they ever could have considered

not placing characters like this at the center. Whereas I agree with you, Nicole, that when I watch this movie, I wanna watch the movie that is like 80% Bill the Butcher. Right, yeah. And the DiCaprio character is kind of flittering around the edges. That's what I wanted. I honestly pictured him like Watto when you said that.

Well, the ultimate flitterer. Okay, so, Amstrad is introduced to Bill, but keeps his past a secret as he seeks recruitment into the gang. He learns many of his father's former lieutenants are now in Bill's employ despite his anti-Irish views. Each year, Bill celebrates the anniversary of his victory over the dead rabbits and Amsterdam secretly plans

to kill him publicly during this celebration. That's kind of exciting. A little. Kind of a thrilling premise if you ask me. Ha ha ha. Totally. It is a good premise. I just, I just, I was a little bogged down by the execution. Okay.

So Amsterdam gain, gains Bill's confidence and becomes his protege involving him with the dealings of corrupt, uh, what is it? Tammany Hall, uh, politician William M Tweed, Jim Broadbent, who I know from Moulin Rouge, baby. Hello, Harold Ziegler right around the same time. It was when if you needed a guy with like a big mustache, he was your guy. He did. That's who you went to. Yeah. Well, Amsterdam saves Bill from an assassination attempt and is tormented by the thought that he may have done so out of honest devotion. Honestly, I read that on Wikipedia, and I didn't quite get that from the movie.

I didn't think that at all, and I was debating this with my husband because he was like, oh, he saves him, and I go, no, he like jumped away. I thought he was like trying to get away from the bullet, and because it could hit him, because he was right next to him. So it's like he seemed to kind of just like scoot out and then but it and like and Bill still got hit. So I didn't get how it was saved.

Kind of yells like Bill watch out. Like there's a little bit of a you know. I guess I guess we'll give him that one. Okay. So on the evening of the anniversary, Johnny, in a fit of jealousy over Jenny, reveals Amsterdam's true identity and intentions to Bill. Bill baits Amsterdam with a knife throwing act involving Jenny.

That was really crazy. As Bill toasts priest Valen, Amsterdam throws his knife, but Bill deflects it and wounds Amsterdam with a counter throw. Bill proclaims that rather than dying, Amsterdam shall live in shame and burns wounds Amsterdam with a counter throw. Bill proclaims that rather than dying, Amsterdam shall live in shame and burns his cheek with a hot blade. Going into hiding, Jenny nurses Amsterdam back to health

and implores him to escape with her to San Francisco. Yeah, I mean, I liked all this. I thought it was really interesting. I just really wanted Amsterdam to have a nasty fucking scar. Like I really wanted Amsterdam to have a nasty fucking scar. I really wanted him to look different because he literally says you're gonna have to walk with this scar or whatever he says.

And then it was like, uh oh, all better, okay, still pretty. I know, he looked great. He's a handsome boy. Yeah, I guess they fancy him with the opera him, right? Like that sort of, he's like, I'm hide like that sort of hideous. You're fine. You have like a little birthmark. I David everything you said you love about this movie. I also

love about this movie with the exception of the one thing I don't totally lock into is the romance as you put it between well the romance between DiCaprio and Diaz I'm 100% out on. That's just like a non-star. It's the least interesting part of it. No, and they also, it's not really included here, but it's like, they have like a sort of

will they, won't they thing where she keeps kind of like getting in his way, and then he keeps being like, what's your deal? Like, get out of here. And then they like, fuck. And that's kind of it. It feels very perfunctory to me. It feels like contractual obligation shit.

The thing I want to work for me in the movie is what you said, like the love story, the weird love story between Bill the Butcher and Amsterdam. This odd, like, here's a guy coming to get revenge, and yet he's kind of lured in by this whole thing. You know, the moment you were just talking about of him sort of preventing the assassination, like why is he saving this guy? Is he actually like developing feelings?

Does he like this lifestyle? He just wants a daddy. His daddy dies when he's a little baby. I'm serious, you know, right? Like, you know, I agree with you. A very profound moment. Right. Yeah. But that's the thing. Like on paper, I'm like, yes,, right? Like, you know, I agree with you. Right, yeah. But that's the thing, like on paper, I'm like, yes, I find that to be compelling.

That is emotionally compelling to me, and I don't totally buy the execution of it within the movie. I agree, because I think if he did something that like questioned his like, his morals or something for build a butcher. That would have been something where he's like, I'm going to do this thing, even though like I know I shouldn't because of my dad or whatever, but does it anyway. So I don't know. Like I, I, I just want it more. Like I wanted to actually feel his allegiance to build a butcher. I didn't really feel it.

I just don't, I feel like DiCaprio wasn't quite ready to pull this off at this point. This was the narrative at the time. People were like, yep. Oh, was it Caprio proven to be, you know, doesn't have the juice. Titanic was a one off or whatever. No, they said he didn't have the juice. Catch me if you can came out at the same time and people like that, but because he's playing a younger, you know, he's playing like a teenager in that everyone was like, well, sure. He can play a teenager, but he can't play a grownup. And I don't know when he turned it around Griff. I guess it was kind of like the departed, right? Like blood diamond, the departed, my

aviator, the way I, the way I view it. And we've covered a lot of these surrounding movies on the power of these movies. But like, Catch Me If You Can, I think, is one of his best performances ever, if not his very best. And standing in opposition to this movie, the two of them coming out a week apart, you're like, this is DiCaprio doing the thing that no other star on the planet could have done at that moment. Like, he is just bottling all of his like insane boyish charm, the ability to sell anyone anything, and it's like this weird chameleonic performance,

but that's going off of his intense likeability, rather than him trying to seem tough and intense and serious, which I think at this point he was like, I don't wanna be seen as a teeny bopper, I don't wanna be seen as a heartthrob, I want to be an adult, serious filmmaker. I want to be Robert De Niro. That's who I want to grow into.

And he and Scorsese form this really strong bond that also is beneficial to Scorsese to help get his movies financed. I think he's a lot better in the aviator where it's sort of finding a role of a real guy who coasted off a lot of that similar kind of boyish charm in a more serious film, but bottling that same energy. And then Departed for me is the one where it totally clicks

because Departed is not to get ahead of movies you'll be covering here. It's about a guy trying to prove his own crap. Yes, that's the thing. And it's like a movie about a guy basically saying, please, I can be in a Scorsese movie, let me be in a Scorsese movie, I can pull this off. And I think he's so good in that, and that's the movie where he like clicks it.

I don't think he's consistently great every time from then on. And I tend to prefer the times that Leo is fun to the times that Leo is like self-serious. Like, once in a while in Hollywood and Wolf of Wall Street, Catch Me If You Can are the times that Leo is like self-serious. Like, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and Wolf of Wall Street, Catch Me If You Can are the movies where I'm like, no one else could do this. Yeah. But he gets to better grown up serious performances

later after this. And I know part of this is that he is supposed to be the kid, right? He is supposed to be in and over his head. But I feel his pressure of I'm trying to prove myself as a serious actor rather than the character trying to prove that he can hack it with these other guys. Yeah.

Yeah, I did feel myself just very removed watching a lot, in ways that I just didn't with other ones. So, that makes sense. Then, I said it before, I also just think everyone looking so current, watching a lot of in a ways that I just didn't with other ones. So that makes sense. Then I said it before. I also just think everyone looking so current, like everyone looked very contemporary and that really took me out of it. Well, and it's weird because like, so in the beginning we have that sort of current music and then you don't have that again, like throughout the whole thing. Like it's all kind of like,

we get it again at the end. At the end there's the U2 song. You get the U2 song. You get the U2 song. That's a U2 song? Oh yeah. But I'm like, why? I only knew that because the captions were on and it said U2's made in America plays or whatever.

But I was like, why do we not have that in the middle? Like, cause that's a choice you can make stylistically when you do something like that's a period piece but with current music and that can be really cool. But it didn't, it was kind of like, it felt like random. It felt like it was supposed to suck you in at the beginning. And then you're like, but no, it's all Irish jig music or whatever. And like, I'm not going to hear that again.

I don't know. I didn't get it. Um, I know people say you have iPhone face now, right? But there's no iPhones in 2002. So you say it was like Nokia face, like what's the flip phone face, right, but there's no iPhones in two thousand two. So you say it's like Nokia face like what's cause they flip phone face right, because it's like the that's like what you what's iPhone right? Yeah, what is that? Never heard of an iPhone like does he have like you know power book face? I just trying to think of like what was a thing in two thousand? I iPhone face is

like a young actor in a period movie where people go, that is a face who has seen an iPhone. I don't buy them existing in this setting. This person has apps. It was especially when I think when Dakota Johnson played a Jane Austen character, people were like, no, no, no. Dakota Johnson. That's so funny. Yeah, exactly, has apps.

She's not, she doesn't live in a house in England. It's like that's not a thing. Nicole and Lauren, did you recognize Henry Thomas in this? Have you put this together? No, what is this? Henry Thomas is his like young friend in the movie. The guy who kind of brings him into the world. Yeah. Okay.

And he is Elliot from E.T. Oh! Oh! Wow! Oh, that's cool. Would have never, ever known. I know, and then there's kind of this side story with him where he's like, I wish I was with Cameron Diaz,

and then like, no one cares. Like, it's like. Yeah, nobody gives a shit. I like him a lot as an actor, and he's like, obviously incredible in obviously incredible in ET and then the last ten years he's kind of had this amazing resurgence in horror movies but I put him in the same box with DiCaprio and Diaz and this or I'm just like I don't care when they're talking. Wow.

What about their struggles Griffin? What about all their struggles? Did you know that New York, there used to be just a big lake in Chinatown? Okay. Like things were tough back then the corners, people with metal birds in the rise. They could have had big buildings, but they didn't know how there's ladies called hellcat Maggie walking around taking that lady was wild. Her teeth were all pointed and then she had claws. I said, wow, that's devotion to the cause. Brendan Gleason's job is to hit people with a stick, mark how many people he hits,

and then he's like, I hit this many people, give me my money. That's his whole job. They pay him per notch. He's so good in this. And his son is my crush, don't all Gleason. His son is my crush. Oh my Godason. His son is my crush, Lauren! Let's fight!

Let's fight! Oh my God! Have you seen About Time? Of course I have. I've watched it so many times. He's so charming in it. He's so good. Did you watch Run on HBO?

Yes, and I really liked that too. Because I just loved him. I loved him in it. I love him! Did you watch The Patient? Oh, I did watch. That's the one with Steve Crow. Is that the one where he's crazy?

Is that the one with Steve Crow? I love him. I love him. just loved him. I loved him in it. I love him. Did you watch The Patient? Oh, I did watch. That's the one with Steve Carell. Is that the one where he's crazy? It's Steve Carell. With Steve Carell? He needs a therapist for some bad stuff he be doing.

I actually don't think I saw the end. I think that that one was too scary. This is obviously like pure hypothetical flight of fancy, but now this side tangent has made me think of this. I'm like, were he the right age at this point? Oh. Dumbledore, I could have bought his Amsterdam. Would have been amazing.

Yes. We need him in some period pieces. He hasn't really done that, I feel it. Yeah, he's got a good period phase. True Grit, he's got like one amazing scene in. Never seen True Grit. He's in The Revenant, people forget. Yeah.

Never seen The Revenant. I've also never seen that, sorry to tell you. He's in Brooklyn, that's a period piece. Haven't seen that either. Sir Charonin lives in Brooklyn and she's Irish. I shouldn't say someone hasn't done something when I like- When we haven't't done something when I've only seen the rom-coms. It's like, yeah, of course. Brooklyn is like hookups of New York.

It's like the period love triangle movie between an Irish immigrant and an Italian immigrant. Yeah. Okay, I could get into that. Yeah. Well, let's keep going with our plot here. So Amsterdam returns to the Five Points seeking vengeance and announces his return by hanging a dead rabbit

in Paradise Square. Bill sends a member of his gang to investigate, but Amsterdam kills him and hangs his body in the square. In retaliation, Bill has Johnny severely beaten and run through with a pike, leaving it to Amsterdam to end his suffering. The incident garners newspaper coverage and Tweed presents Amsterdam with a plan to defeat Bill's influence. Tweed will back the candidacy of Monk McGinn, Brendan Gleason for sheriff.

Monk wins in a landslide and humiliated Bill murders him. McGinn's death prompts Amsterdam to challenge Bill to a gang battle in Paradise Square. And then city draft riots break out just as the gangs are preparing to fight and Union Army soldiers are deployed to control the rioters. As the rival gangs face off, cannon fire from naval ships are fired directly onto Paradise Square between the cannons and soldiers. Many of the gang members are killed. Bill and Amsterdam face off in a fun ghost fight

where Bill is just like, whoof, whoof, whoof, whoof. And Amsterdam's like, oh, oh, oh! And then Bill is severely wounded by a piece of shrapnel, which I didn't get that. He's finally killed by Amsterdam, who along with Jenny leaves New York and starts a new life in San Francisco.

There's like that moment when you... I thought Leo died. And he's like laying on the ground, and then Jenny comes over, and he's like, mommy. And I thought he's been like... He's just taking a nap. He's fine. And then they go and look at the graves that overlook New York City, which I often... Actually, I brought these up recently,

that like when you're driving into New York from like the airport and then like you pass by like all those graves that look over the city and it feels so like dark because you're just like, we're going to be that. And like, I don't know. I always think that when I see that I'm just like, it's like this landscape view of just like, tons of tombstones under buildings. And you're just like, oh.

You basically cannot enter or leave New York City without being reminded of the inevitable specter of death. Yeah, it's like they just stack cemeteries like all outside of the perimeter of Manhattan. And you're just like, okay, cause I guess there's no room in there. It's only like, in Manhattan, I guess there's no room in there. It's only like, in Manhattan, I guess there's like two like really old cemeteries

that I remember seeing, and then that's about it. They're like ancient. But so then the like sort of amazing moment we're supposed to have is that this fight happens, all these people die right here, and right over there, they're building the buildings. And then like all, then the graves get covered in grass and no one ever remembers that they ever existed.

Which is true in Manhattan. There are so many people buried in Manhattan that are in unmarked graves. That's it's true. Oh really? Oh. Yeah, of course. Like, and there's, there's lots of national monuments now,

little signs that are like, yo, by the way, there's like a giant cemetery underneath your feet right now. That's cool. It's cool. It's a ball of like, like, so New York, not to be nerdy, but New York used to end at Chamber Street, which is where city hall is and where gangs in New York is set is right above Chamber Street, right? It's Chinatown now.

And that's why it was so scummy because it it used to be like outside the city quote unquote. And that's where all the crazy stuff was happening. Um, and uh, yeah, you know, you know, it can like, that's interesting though. It's like, when do we, when do we decide to just put a building on top of a cemetery? Like, I think a lot of crazy decisions were being made by them. I mean, and people were wearing type hats, you know, while they made those decisions, they were like I think a lot of crazy decisions were being made. I mean, and people were still type hats, you know, while they made those decisions, they were like, oh, let's do this. Who I was firemen who like punched each other

instead of fighting fires because we were like, this is our fight. Like that's all real. Like that's stuff that would just happen back. They try to punch the fire, see if that would put it out. Then they yell at it. I have a question. Yeah. Not to make anyone feel uncomfortable, but does Martin Scorsese make sure to include the N-word in every movie? I was waiting to bring this up because I felt like it was so heavy in this movie.

This one is heavy. Yeah. And I think it said it in every movie we've seen. And I'm like, hey, Martin, I really like you. And why? There was also the blackface scene in the when they're doing like where they're late or something. Well, the the the throwing of the knives happened.

And then the person in blackface is like, oh, I better cheer everybody up. It's very strange. Yeah. And it felt if every time felt extremely unnecessary. I, I, so is the N word also used toward Irish people at this time? That was something that I was like, certainly it's the, it's the idea of the nativism, right? It's like they're, they're very, you know, intensely, uh, prejudiced against the Irish as immigrants, like basically in a similar kind of way. It just was one of those things where I was like, the story can be told without that language. But then I wonder if, but I was gonna say,

I wonder if we're at a point now where that wouldn't be true, but then there's still lots of movies being made where people are throwing that out. The play you're seeing is Uncle Tom's Cabin, which was obviously like the bestselling book at the time. Oh, I didn't know that. Because it's in the middle of the civil war. So wait, they had books back then. So we're like reading mud. What about Shakespeare Nicole?

Wait, I do like the idea though, that they were just read dirt. I guess I just couldn't fathom any of those dirty people going to a book store. I don't think a lot of our characters are probably cracking open books, but that's what I like uncle. It was like it was a way to rally people for the union and for Lincoln was the popular that yeah, that's why there's it's it's all part of the like rich cauldron of history that Martin Scorsese is presenting to you at Gangs of New York. I just think about the I can feel the Mike's everyone's so excited. I'm sorry, Karen. No, no, like thinking about the actors have like having to do it. It's like it's just so

aggressive. It's I find that to be so off putting that it's like why is that if that wasn't in there, I wouldn't miss it. Yeah. I think for Scorsese. It doesn't add to the world. Yeah. Here's what I would say, I would imagine would be his argument, is I think for him,

like the whole thing this movie stems out of, the reason why he became obsessed with this book and spent 20 years trying to make it, is he he grew up in this period that was sort of like the transition the beginning of the end of New York City being like everyone keeps to themselves and doesn't trust the others right like the neighborhoods are very sectioned off by like you know Marty grew up in this neighborhood. I hate the Irish yeah and he And he said, like, when he was young, he got obsessed with learning what existed before him, right?

Like, he grows up in Little Italy. And then he's like, wait, we took over this? This used to be an Irish neighborhood. And before that, it was what? That, you know, New York City is this melting pot of immigration. And then everyone landed here and we're fighting over who is the real type of American, who is the real type of New Yorker. They're like holding onto their culture and legacy and trying to make that the default state while fighting against everyone else's culture and telling them that they need to like give in and subsume to this new idea of America. So I think he loves, I wouldn't say he loves the racism, but I think he very much was born into that sort of intense antagonism, you know, and that energy,

which he's very obsessed with, of people fighting over territory, and the territory isn't just physical space, it's identity, it's notions of power and all of that. And he's also he just grew up rough So he's just like I'm gonna show you all the worst shit People are gonna do fucked up shit and say fucked up things in my movies Yeah, sure

I still think he could Get the same idea across without the use of the word because it literally doesn't I'm like, okay So I see someone their blood splatter. I'm like, Hey, that's intense. But like hearing that word doesn't make me go. Wow. That was more intense. No, it's like, now I'm taking out a little bit. Yeah. Right. That's just my, my little completely fair, especially in a movie about 98% white people yelling at each other. Yeah. And then the two black people you do see are brutally murdered and they're like, cool. It's so terrifying.

And almost felt like it wasn't part of the story. You're like, that guy just wandered in and then they're like, get him. It's like, no, I don't like, get him. I guess to more succinctly answer your question, they don't use the N word in Hugo, so it's not literally every Okay, good. So we've got about that's that one with the big clock. Yeah, it's about kids who love movies It's about kids in Paris. They love movies and they ride the train and there's a robot

It's like cute if he was throwing racial slurs in that one, I would pull him aside and say like Marty. Marty, Jesus Christ, what the hell is going on? You have a serious problem. Didn't Nickelodeon produce this movie, Marty? Aren't you? Just rein it in. Well, let's talk about the reception of the film.

So the film has a 72% on Rotten Tomatoes. I'm a little confused because I thought David, you were saying people were like, no, on this one, but it landed on many critics best of the year list and was nominated for 10 Academy Awards. Oh. It's what Griffin's saying. The hype for this movie was,

it's gonna win him his long awaited Oscar. He'd never won an Oscar. It's gonna be his biggest hit ever because of the scale of it and so on and so forth. And instead 72%, it's like, that's not bad. Rotten tomatoes is a bit of a flawed metric because like a mildly positive review is fresh. But like, you know, I feel like Griff, the critical reception at the time was he could tell him a film critic complaining about run tomatoes. Yeah, like the reception at the time was like

your reception basically of like this. It's so impressive. The ambitions incredible. Like a lot of it doesn't work for me. You know, seven out of 10, right? The positive reviews had this note of frustration to them where they're like, it's so close. And I was going back and rereading a lot of the reviews from the time before we started recording and it's fascinating how a lot of them try to qualify it with like, maybe if I watch it five more times, I will come around to it being a masterpiece.

Like there's sort of trying, they're trying to compare it to the Scorsese classics at that point that had already been canonized. And it feels a little like the reviews of Phantom Menace when it came out where they're like, we might just be too close to this. Yeah, but everyone- You wanna like it we might just be too close to this. Yeah. But everyone-

You wanna like it. Totally. And so it's that. And yeah, and it got 10 Oscar nominations, but it won zero. Even going into the night, people assumed that Martin Scorsese was gonna win best director, and there was this attitude of like-

No, they didn't. I think they did. Who do you think was the odds on prediction to win best director that night? Rob Marshall, which is crazy, but then he lost and it was a surprise. But I don't disagree with that. What was the movie that won?

Who won that year? Scorsese won the Golden Globe, Rob Marshall won the DGA, and Roman Polanski won the Oscar. For one movie? For The Pianist, which was also a Harvey Weinstein movie and kind of took a lot of, and people thought Daniel Day Lewis, it was either going to be Daniel Day Lewis or Jack Peterson winning. Did he think it was called the penis?

Yes. Yeah. People voted for it because they thought it was called the penis. And that's why Harvey acquired it. You know, everyone was initially like excited about Jay Cox, but then the penis, they were like simpler. Well, that's, yeah, we know it's not even slang anymore. We just know what it is.

Yeah. I mean, this is a matter of perspective, David, and you could argue that it was like an unclear field, but I remember watching the show that night going, I guess Scorsese probably still wins by default. No, definitely not. Even thinking Chicago was gonna to win Best Picture, I had no belief that Rob Marshall was going to win director.

We all thought it was going to be old Robbie Marshall. Well, and I say, we all thought it was going to be Swercese. We were on different forums. And what did Rob Marshall direct? Chicago. Chicago, which won Best Picture. Oh. And was his first movie.

I did like Chicago. That was the other thing. It was, Miramax had all three big movies that year. It was Harvey competing against himself with like Scorsese's Overdue Epic, a Holocaust movie made by a child molester, and a big flashy musical. And Chicago kind of like rose up at the last minute and took over It's a weird Oscar year where Chicago was just a movie everybody liked everyone. Yeah had a nice time with Chicago Fun it had songs like it was just one of those things where all the more

Complex it's super ambitious, you know, flawed stuff, everyone was like, and just going to vote for Chicago. Everyone was having a good time. Like was John C. Riley in this movie? Yeah, but it was brief. Isn't this he's the police also in Chicago. Yeah. Nicole, there's a fun year for him. As an Oscar nerd, there's a thing I like to call the John C. Reilly Award. An honorific in my mind for the person who is in the most best picture nominees in any given year. Wow. Where John C. Reilly this year was in The Hours, Chicago, and Gangs of New York.

He was in three out of the five. Wow. Yeah. That's so cool. and three out of the five. Yeah. And I'm like, there was the year where Lucas Hedges was in Lady Bird Manchester. There are a couple of times people have gotten close. Those are separate years. Then was it Lady Bird and three billboards

were the same year. Yeah, right, right, right. He had two. Getting two is impressive, yeah. Two is impressive. Three is wild. I think right, right, right. You having to is impressive. Yeah. Two is impressive. Yeah, it's pretty wild. I think one's amazing. Yeah. I wouldn't pick one out of that. So Cameron Diaz had a divisive performance as an Irish immigrant pickpocket and has been cited as an example of poor casting and one of the

worst Irish accents in film. Oh, that's mean. in one of the worst Irish accents in film. Oh, that's mean. That is mean. Well, she was so hot, right? Like right then, that was when she was like at her, everyone was like, she's about to be a big act, big serious actor, you know? But it isn't, it was post-

It was tough casting. Being John Malkovich and stuff, yeah. Phenylis Nye. She's just great in being John Malkovich. Oh, I love that. So good. I just watched that this year. And I'm like, why aren't we still talking about it?

I just watched that this year, too. And I was like, this movie is really good. Everyone's like, yeah, so good. Yeah. Same. Every time I mention it, people are like, yeah, people talk about it in 1999. But every choice they could make, they made. And it's so fun. It does feel in a slightly bummer way though.

Like DiCaprio obviously pushes through this, right? And like wins the battle of how he wants to be perceived. Diaz, it feels like takes this really hard and basically doesn't try to do something even close to this ever again. Right. That makes sense though. I feel like that it seems like-

Well, she did play Miss Hannigan and Annie. She sure did. She should have done with an Irish accent. Her final role. Yeah. Yeah. And then she retired. But then she came out, right? She came out of her retirement. She's got a Netflix movie with Jamie Foxx. She's in a movie. Yeah. And she has her wine company. Yeah. yeah. So here's a little trivia. So this is crazy stuff. To simulate Bill the Butcher's fake eye, Daniel Day-Lewis had his own eyeball covered in prosthetic glass.

He learned to tap his fake eye with the tip of a knife without blinking. Wow. Wow. That's crazy. That's wild. That's scary. So he must've had that in all the time, knowing he's like a method actor. So he was just like,

Oh my God, just tapping his fucking eyeball. Getting real used to it, just like poking it with shit. This movie also filmed for like a year straight. What? I'm just like doing the math. 365 days. For how like hard Daniel Day-Lewis goes, He usually doesn't have to go that hard for that long. That's so long. That's crazy. Yeah.

It's kind of kept stretching out. I mean to be clear it's filmed for about four months, but then I think they kept returning coming back. They did more and more. Reissues. It was not one. it was not an apocalypse now like do you think he stays in character in between when he knows like there's gonna be another round of reshoots so I should just might be reshoots yeah and his children are like dad they haven't given you a date for that yet it's an insert shot but I'm the butcher They only need to see your hand dad, it's a pickup. They don't even need you, it can be a double.

It's gotta be me. I'm not touching hands with the butcher. Yeah. More trivia. I don't wanna hear that. A little bit more trivia, Marty Scorsese hired The Magician, an Italian man famous for a 30 year career as a pickpocket to teach

Cameron Diaz about the art of picking pockets. That's fun. That's cool. She got to learn a little skill. I wonder if she still does it for fun. Passive income. Yeah. I like when she has all of them on her neck and she's like, yeah, take one, whatever,

which one is it? And, uh, to talk about Daniel D. Lewis again, Leo broke Daniel D. Lewis's nose by mistake, by accident while filming a fight scene and Daniel D. Lewis continued to film the scene despite the injury. So that's checks out. He probably was like, yes, we're really doing it. Like David is, is this the movie where they have to pull him out of cobbling or was it the boxer? Supposedly, this is the one he was a cobbler for I right. I mean, I don't

there are so many stories about Daniel Day-Lewis being insane and it's hard to know what's real or not, but yeah, supposedly he was a cobbler. He definitively at a point in time said, I can't act anymore. It takes too much out of me. I just want to make shoes. Yeah. And he was just a cobbler. Yeah. In between the boxer and this. So he didn't make a movie for five years. He supposedly moved to Italy and became a cobbler. I, I, is that what the Adam Sandler movie is about? a movie for five years. He supposedly moved to Italy and became a cobbler.

Is that what the Adam Sandler movie is about? Back then it was harder to check on someone. That's what the Adam Sandler movie should be about. It started out as a biopic and then it kind of went through enough passes that it got far away from the original story. We do have to take one more break. Okay, we're back! This is our segment, the New Academy Awards. So despite his films having been nominated for over 100 combined Academy Awards, Marty himself has only won one. And we're here to correct the record, presenting the prestigious first annual New Academy Awards. So we're gonna read off some categories and nominees, and then we'll all pick our favorite person to win.

The first category is best dressed. The nominees are Jenny Everdeen, Cameron Diaz, Amsterdam, Leo, Bill the Butcher, or Priest Valen, Liam Neeson, who had the best outfits? Bill? I think it's Bill. I think it's Bill in a walk. I think I like about this movie a lot

is they talked about for how much research there was done and how much money was spent on the costumes and building the city and everything. They weren't going for realism and I feel like this movie looks like Muppet Christmas Carol in a way that I like. Totally. It's a little heightened and a little storybook-y

for how grimy and edgy it is. And Build a Butcher is just the perfect encapsulation of that. That is so funny. That's really true. And I felt like the hats told the whole story. It was like, for a while, they all had really tall hats. And then they came back with like bowler caps and I was like, oh, now everyone's into this.

Like I was like, oh. Something's changed. Yeah. So the new Academy Award goes to Bill the Butcher. Thank you. Now we have best line delivery. The nominees are, whoopsie daisy, Bill the Butcher. It's a funny feeling being taken under the wing of a dragon.

It's warmer than you think. Amsterdam, Amsterdam, I'm New York. Don't ever come in here empty handed again. You gotta pay for the pleasure of my company, Bill the Butcher. I'm gonna vote for whoopsie daisy, just cause it's just a little silly. It's definitely whoopsy Daisy.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Whoopsy Daisy? I used to be able to do it really well. Well, the new Academy Award goes to Whoopsy Daisy. And our final category is best hair. The nominees are Jenny Everdeen, Amsterdam, or Bill the Butcher.

Well, now we know- I'm gonna go with Bill. Oh, I was gonna say Amsterdam had that little braid, you know. Oh yeah, I did like that braid. Jenny and Jenny's hair was nice, had some nice curls, but it was blown away. I didn't love it and I didn't hate it. It wasn't, if it was a wig, it was a pretty decent wig.

It definitely was. I don't think she, because it was like red. I feel like she didn't go red. I think she's disqualified for it being a wig. No offense. And I think DiCaprio has very pretty hair in this, but I almost think that's a strike against him. Yeah. Like, Bill the Butcher has the right hair for this movie. He has the most severe hat hair I've ever seen, where it's just like permanently like matted and the flip from underneath the brim of his hat. I just think it's such a good look. Yeah, I think we all agree. The new Academy Award goes to Bill the Butcher. Great hair.

Congrats. And it's now time for score. S he. So it's time for reviews. So we're gonna be reading reviews from Letterboxd and then we're gonna each give it a one sentence review and a star rating. If you don't know what Letterboxd is, I'm confused because we talk about it every episode. So this review is from Maria.

Daniel Day-Lewis has more talent in his fake eye than I do in my entire body. Maria, don't say that about you. Oh, Maria, well, she gave it five stars. She did, five stars. That's wild. Anya and Allie are also gonna weigh in with their one-sentence reviews.

So if anybody has one and wants to go first, feel free to take the floor. I'll go first. I would give it three stars, and I would say the greasy hair made my skin crawl the entire time. Okay, I'm gonna give this movie two and a half stars. I'm gonna say,

you know, there was, we didn't talk about that part where all those women had their boobs out. But in a way we- Oh yeah. Um, I want to say, you know, maybe the stinkiest sex I've ever seen on screen. No. Not the point of the film,

but that's the part that stuck with me the most. I'm going to give it three and a half stars because I could smell the movie, which I didn't love, but I think if everything looked less current, it would have been better. But also it was fun to look at as it was. This is a bad review, but I stand by it. Okay, I did just type out my letterbox review, which is basically a rephrasing of what I said earlier. I'm giving it three and a half stars. Movie basically goes up a full star

whenever there are no actors born after 1970 on screen. That's my take. I love it. I love it. Anya or David? David. It's five stars. I love it. I love it. Anya or David? David. It's five stars from David. Wow.

Everyone's got a nice big hat. Okay. Everyone's got a nice big hat. Is that what you said? Yeah. It can be that simple. Yeah. Yeah, it can.

I feel like we should have ended on David's because I'm going to go to stars. Marty, we expected better. Yeah, I think it's fair. It's fine. Sorry. You know, okay, so I didn't love it, but I also didn't like, hate it, hate it, the way I've hated other things.

Do you know what I mean? Well, this is why we always say, I mean, but I just feel like my bar is high for his movies right now. And so I have to be like, just compared to, I've given five stars out of maybe once or twice already. I'm like, so it's not that. It's not one I'm gonna revisit. But also I like also, I just forgive Marty for this one.

Do you know what I mean? Like I'm like, Marty, I still think you could do no wrong. Like I love you, I have problems, but like it's okay. No, and I think Griffin, you were saying that he was like, kind of doing things to get an Oscar, sort of, and then goes away from that with the next one. So it's like, that makes sense to me. Like, it's sort of like, oh, I'm trying something here.

Like, it's a movie we've been talking about for 30 years or whatever, and, like, then, you know, let's not try that again. Like, it all makes sense. Aviator, he's still gunning for Oscar, but I like that one a little bit better. And then past Aviator, he's still gunning for Oscar, but I like that one a little bit better. And then past Aviator, he's like, I'm doing my own fucking thing.

It's, he has this kind of incredible run of being like, you know what, from here on out, you're giving me a hundred million dollars every time, and I'm not conceding on anything. I'm doing shit my way just with huge stars and massive budgets now. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

I'll also say, cause I know the nature of this podcast is you're trying to cover the big ones, the totemic movies. But I- Ooh, that's a good word. Thank you. A lot of my favorite Scorsese movies are the like quote unquote minor ones. Cause he has his major films and his movies

that are kind of his epics and are the ones that are sort of. Wait, Griffin, what's your favorite one? My favorite is After Hours, which is like, Oh yes, you did for him. New York comedy. I mean, it's hard to make a movie I would like more than that down to it starring an actor named Griffin. And it just being a neurotic guy in New York City

getting like fucked over and stressed out by everything. But that's a movie I love and that's thought of as like, oh, this is like kind of a fun lark he did. His sort of zags in between the serious movies often are the ones that I love. So, I mean, I'm thrilled to hear that the two of you have been enjoying your Scorsese journey. I'm sorry, Scorchese journey. Yeah, thank you. And I think you'll enjoy the second half of movies after Gangs more. But I also I would encourage you to go back at later points and fill in some of

those gaps and some of the weird ones. Yeah, I would like to watch that. I'm like, I literally can't watch it until we're done with this season because I don't have time to watch another movie. But I just looked it up and it looks fun. And it's very highly rated. Chi Chi Chong, a ran a Catherine O'Hara's in it. Oh, wow. Okay.

Well, you guys, you were the best to grace us with your presence and talk about this movie. I feel very lucky that we got to hear your opinions on this and help us learn more about Martin D'Ordesi. Educated. You guys are the best. Our pleasure. Do you guys have anything you wanna plug?

Blind Check's our podcast. Blind Check. Yeah, we're doing, when will this come out? May or something. So we will be doing Satoshi Kon at that point. Yeah, we're doing Satoshi Kon, the great Japanese animator, Satoshi Kon. Oh, okay.

Ooh, that's fun. Blank check. Yes, it is fun. Finishing up John McInerney. Nicole, you were on a handful of years ago, a deep pandemic, you did Back to the Future Part II with us. Yes. Yes, I did.

That's right. One of the great American epics. Did I like it? I don't remember. My memory is you did. You liked it? Yeah. I think you're proud. The first one's so much better though. I really like it. I don't remember. My memory is you did. You liked it? Yeah.

I think you're pro. The first one's so much better though. The first one is, but I have a lot of love for two. Lauren, you're very overdue to come on. We have to find something I have been on for. I know. Come on. Do you guys ever talk about Blank Check?

Cause that's the only one I want to talk about. The movie. We've done it. We'll do it again. We've done it once. We'll do it again. Yeah. A couple of years into doing the show, we did one episode on Blank Check I don't want to talk about the movie. We've done it once. We'll do it again. We've done it once, yeah. A couple years into doing the show,

we did one episode on Blank Check because people kept asking us if we had done an episode on Blank Check. But maybe it's time for another one. I've never seen Blank Check. Blank Check is so crazy. It is one of the most bananas movies ever made. A grown woman kisses a child.

Yeah. Whoa, no! It's honestly the weirdest. That is true. It's so weird. And when you're a kid, you're like, yay so weird and when you're a kid you're like, yay I want your daughter like why is she doing that? Follows a boy who inherits a blank check and uses it to buy a house what yeah, so he gets hit by a car Yeah, Nicole you read that premise and you're probably like imagining what kind of family movie is

I swear to you there are scenes in this movie that feel like they're out of the fucked up mind of Martin Scorsese. Really? Fucking grownups holding guns to his head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As Lauren said, fucking tongue kissing adult women. It's like a 12, it's like a Disney movie though, right? Like literally it's a, but he gets hit by a car

and then the guy like is like, oh, here, I'll get right to check in a new bike. And then he doesn't fill in the amount. And so then he's like, I could do anything with this. Anyway, wow. He makes up a fake businessman and says that he is the 12 year old personal assistant to this businessman and buys a mansion.

And everyone's supposed to believe it. Yeah. Buys a mansion, yeah. The man who wrote this screenplay And everyone's like, got it. Yeah. And the man... Biza Mansion, yeah. The man who wrote this screenplay then went on to write the book, Save the Cat, which everyone invokes all the time as like, well, the obvious guide on how to write a perfect screenplay. He came off of writing Blake Check and was like, I think I've cracked it.

I think I know everything. My favorite thing ever because people all, that book is like supposed to be like, that's the book on how to write a movie. And then I always go, why hasn't he written 40 movies then? Like, I'm like, if you have the exact model of what is exactly perfect, why don't you have a hundred movies? I, it just doesn't make sense. Right? No, it's really funny. It's just the weirdest movie for someone to walk away and go, I think I've mastered the form.

Time for me to spread my teachings. I love someone who's confident like that. That's so confident. That's great. But you know what? Honestly, that book is probably his blank check. He's probably gonna get so much money. Probably, yeah.

It's just always selling. That's a good point. That's a good point. He figured it out. Well, please everyone, write a review for newcomers on Apple Podcasts and rate the podcast on Spotify. Five stars only, of course.

We'll be back next week with the Aviator. See you then. Newcomers is a Headgum original hosted by us, Nicole Byer and Lauren Lapkus. Our executive producer is Anya Kenypskaya, and our producer is Ali Khan. Our theme music, editing, sound mixing, and mastering is done by Ferris Manchi. Listen to new episodes wherever you get your podcasts every Tuesday. I'm going to be a good boy. That was a Hidgum Original.