Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Armed with carrots and condoms (with Lindsay Nicholson)

Episode Date: January 14, 2025

Did the great explorers lie? What did Fi really get for her O-Levels? Will Jane be stood up at the Barbican? All the big questions are answered today...Plus, Former Editor-in-Chief of Good Housekeeping magazine Lindsay Nicholson discusses her memoir 'Perfect Bound'. The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

But you know, just know that there are lots and lots of people in the audience who are on their own. And effectively Jane, you and I are on our own on stage. Oh God, you are going to come, aren't you? That would be my idea of a nightmare. No, I think you should enjoy it. Recreate this magic on my own. You want work to be less hard work. You hear an ad for MHR, so you reach out. We connect

your department systems, which leads to real-time data sharing that uncovers new insights, which empower your decision makers and triple monthly sales, which leads to high fives and awkward hugs. You say a big thank you, we say you're welcome. MHR, the science behind HR, payroll and finance. The science behind a new world of work. Discover more at MHRglobal.com. Welcome. Now we had to, I hope it wasn't sarcastic Fie, but we did have an email, I think we received it yesterday, congratulating us on our performances in our advertisements and wondering if either of us have, or indeed both of us, have been to RADA.

It's a very good question. Thank you for that. And I can understand why people ask because I think we have a variety of inflections that we can dig into. Definitely, we can open a part of ourselves that we don't often show when we're being journalist Barbies. I think I'm more method than you, but that's just the way I am. I'm somebody who stays in the role. Do you? Yeah, absolutely.

Well, I can just use my imagination to transport myself to wherever I need to be. I've often found that to be a little bit useful. But anyway, thank you for noticing, kind correspondent, and we intend to continue in the same vein. I always love an email that ends, keep lying to your kids. And this one comes in from Carla who says, Jane's marathons confirm the importance of sharing our sporting prowess with children. They do need role models. When our son was around seven, my husband told him he had been a champion break dancer in Australia in the early 90s.

He showed him a grainy YouTube video of a mullet sporting turquoise shell suit clad break dancer leaping about and spinning on a sheet of cardboard. This Christmas our son, now aged 24, said, Dad, is that break dancing video of you still online? It was a father Christmas meets the empty ice cream van moment. Do we smash his dreams? Well, we just sniggered into our sprouts and changed the subject. Carla, never change. No. Keep that alive, and especially if you've got backup in a grainy video.

So it's not like you did just pull it out of your imagination. You actually provided proof, and I think it needs to enter into family legend, that that's what you did. Do you think a lot of the great explorers might just have lied when they came back? Oh well that's a thought isn't it? How will we find out? How would we ever know? You mean somebody could rock up back at home in Oldham with significant frostbite and claim to have been somewhere? To the outer reaches of the Arctic or Antarctic, I always get these two muddled up so just take your pick from which end of the earth you want to be in.

They might have just gone to Colwyn Bay. They might have just sat on a bench at Southampton too long. But more of lying to your children would be great. I may have upgraded a couple of my GCSE grades, OLEs as they were back then, under the guise of I honestly can't remember what I got, but I don't think it was a great travesty of honesty. But yeah, it may have been a tilt upwards. Oh yeah, I mean there's no point tilting downwards if you're in that sort of situation, to my annoyance I can remember exactly what I got from my own little swagger.

Let's relive this moment everybody. I feel like I wouldn't have been doing my job if I hadn't asked that supplementary question. Well then I want you to reveal the truth about yours as well. Three C's, four B's and only two A's. I mean only two A's and I'm afraid the the As, I'm not afraid but it was English language and English literature. Just English. Basically just English. Well I think that's quite a good showing. What did you then get at A level?

Oh god, ABD. ABD, okay. And in those days, actually do you know what? There are some universities now where you wouldn't get into the course you want with those grades. You just wouldn't, would you? But back in the day, this is 82, I did get in. And it's funny, you're just talking about that grainy image of the pretend breakdancer. The University of Birmingham is celebrating an anniversary of some sort, and I follow them on Instagram, that's where I went to uni. And they were putting up some images today of the early

days of the building work at the site. I mean, it was genuinely fascinating. And the last image they posted on Insta was a very, very grainy, is the right adjective, black and white shot of some people doing an early computer studies course. And I looked at it and thought my god that must be way, when the hell was that? 1982 and I did then think oh my god. Well do you remember when we went to the library in our university days, the library would be full of people sitting around tables or in their little learning pods and stuff writing. mean, there was no laptop, there was no shared computer. I didn't go near a computer because I was doing a humanities degree. I didn't see a computer for three years.

I don't think I did. At the University of Canterbury. No. And that must have just changed the, I don't know, well it must definitely have changed the kind of feeling in a library. There was something rather lovely about everybody sitting with great big, you know, screes of paper, leafing through books, kids, books. Did you, I think the most, what was the three? Three A's, four B's and a C just in case anyone was hanging on. How many? Three A's, four B's and a C. But I think when I told my children I uplifted it to four A's, three B's and a C. I didn't do that many. So, uh, doesn't really make sense.

No, three A's, four B's and a C. Three, no, it's eight. Yeah. And I did eight and I only did two A levels and only just got one of them, really. It wasn't great showing. Sixth form wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't great. So, there we go. But to your point, I actually hate that expression. As you said, said, I would not get to university now if I just had an A and a D, which is what I ended up with. So I'm grateful to the University of Canterbury. Two mentions in one podcast? What more can

they want? What an institution. And what a day for that institution. When Wi-Fi rocked up. You know, let's be honest, you've not done badly. But that's just an illustration of those. I wish I didn't remember, but I just, there's no point me pretending I don't remember because I do. That has made me want to mention the emailer yesterday who emailed to ask if she'd been at primary school with me and you were at primary school with me and I'd love to hear from you. So we're hoping to sort of sort that out and maybe I'd love to have a coffee with you. I won't mention her name just in case that's the last thing she wants but I wonder what she can recall about that

institution and whether it would tally with what I can recall. I'd love to because I don't see anyone I was at primary school with so it would be really interesting to talk about that. Sorry, went off on a tangent there. And can we just say, and again we won't name names, but if you are listening in the hope of sorting out a kerfuffle over tickets for the Barbican, don't you worry, you've absolutely got your back. So having and not having children has sparked a really interesting conversation in the office today. And maybe if you were listening, it sparked an interesting conversation in your household too. I've got a little bit Maggie Philbin there. I'm sorry about that. Never a bad thing.

So this one comes in from Kate. I was sure that I didn't want to have kids. I was very career oriented. I'm a musician and pretty enthralled with the life I had. I knew that kids create a lot of mess and a lot of noise and I hate those. But what changed my perspective was the death of my mother whom I adored when I was 35. After her death I didn't know what to do with the enormous well of maternal love I'd received. My older brother suggested that perhaps the only what to do with the enormous well of maternal love I'd received. My older brother suggested that perhaps the only thing to do with it is to give it on to children of your own. My partner was very willing, we went ahead and had two boys when I was 37 and 39.

So there's bad news and good news. It's all true what people are finally acknowledging about the sleeplessness, the terror of a screaming baby, you don't know how to soothe the exhaustion that challenges your domestic harmony and your professional capacity. Not to mention there can be a lot of pain after the birth, including for the first weeks of breastfeeding and a lot of drudgery and boredom with all of the repetitive tasks involved. But the good news, and there are three points here from Kate, if your partner truly shares in all of the intimate care of the baby and makes the same sacrifices you do to be with it and look after it right from the beginning, that is a totally different ball game.

And Kate goes on to describe parenting as awe-inspiring and life-changing, the type of love that shows up in you. And I think that really is worth saying, Jane, isn't it? Sometimes it can be hard to access at the beginning and there are definitely times in the parenting journey when you have to kind of shake the bottle a bit to get to it. But there is, I found a different type of love. I'd never ever experienced anything like it

and I don't feel the same way about friends or family or lovers. It's just different isn't it? I also just think we shouldn't underestimate the laughter. It can be very funny. Oh very funny. It can be extraordinarily funny. The things, the things, the funny things they say but there are a lot of them. Oh no definitely. The funny things they do. And also you know it's a different landscape of you know comparing any two phases of your life is always going to be difficult. And for lots and lots of women who all they have known is really hard work at school, being diligent in the workplace, method, results, conclusion, that's how your life operates,

I totally understand that it just feels distorting and worrying what lies in the world of babydom because you don't know, you just cannot experience it until you're in it and I understand all of those feelings and that's completely how I felt too but it's a landscape that you learn to navigate and it's got some great great parts in it and we were talking in the office today just about how actually you can become a mistress of your own world when your little ones are babies and toddlers, you're not answerable to deadlines, nine to five and all that type of stuff and there can be a weirdly liberating thing about that.

You found it liberating, I actually missed the structure of a working day but everyone's different. Everyone is different and your children are going to be different and to my absolute horror, your children are not always 100% like you. It's really weird. It turns out they've had other input as well. My God. But then equally, you will catch a glimpse of someone, perhaps long dead, but you'll see them in your child. So all of that is incredibly moving and powerful. And I would, look, I mean, we did have, and I don't blame anyone who emails in to say, please don't forget those of us who would have loved

to have children and it hasn't worked for us. God, I can't imagine the pain. And we absolutely acknowledge that. Well, I kind of hope that you've skipped over these episodes because I think, you know, women crying about the joys of motherhood when it's been denied to you is a pain that you just don't need. Just skip to the next one please. I like this from Catherine. As a child, I vividly remember whenever we were out for a family meal and my mum would have coffee afterwards, she'd always give me the free chocolate on the side. Lovely.

Very, very nice. Whether she actually gave it to you or whether you just took it, Catherine, we don't know. But anyway, fast forward 20 plus years. About a year after getting married, I was out for a pub lunch with my brother and his four-year-old daughter, my niece, who'd been the most adorable little bridesmaid at our wedding. After the pudding, I had coffee, and sure enough, it arrived with a gold-wrapped chocolate on the side of the saucer. I became aware of my small niece's eyes widening at the sight of it. I found myself putting my hand around it and pulling it towards me, thinking, I am not ready to have children yet. Forward another couple of years and we did indeed start our own adorable brood and yes I did share my chocolates with them.

Last one now in the first year of uni so an empty nest for at least a couple of weeks at a time still happily married and starting to plan some adventures for the next stage. Catherine I don't think that's actually a bad way of gauging whether you're ready to make the ultimate sacrifice. Is there room in your life for someone who would absolutely have first dibs on the free chocolate with a coffee when you've been out for a meal? And I think there is no doubt that as a parent you do give, you do give bigger helpings to your children than you would take yourself and you would be more inclined to share with them than with anybody else. And you eat the burnt bits on the toast don't you and you give the more inclined to share with them than with anybody else. And you eat the burnt bits on the toast, don't you, and you give the nice bits to them.

Isn't that right? Aren't we wonderful? Not well. Up for debate. Regarding Harry and Meghan, and I wanted to bring this up with you today as well, so I'm very glad that Caroline has done this. I noticed that Amanda Brattelle in the Daily Mail managed to criticise them. It's really unlike Amanda.

Oh, damn. Normally she's so full of positivity for the whole world, particularly the female of the species. What's happened over Christmas? Come on, Amanda. Although Megan had apparently timed launching her new Homewall podcast programme to clash with the fires. Unbelievable.

So just on that, I have noticed, I have noticed, there are quite a few articles criticising Harry and Meghan, describing them as fire tourists and tragedy tourists for going to visit people who've been displaced by the Los Angeles fires. I don't know how you make that judgement about them doing that. It seemed to be in the photos that people were enjoying a hug, they were happy to be distracted for a second. I didn't get the sense that they were just driving around in a great big Hummer photographing tragedy. They got out and said hello and I think they've promised to stump up some stuff so I don't know. They're being condemned if they didn't. Exactly, they can't win.

Yeah. So, I mean, look, we're not apologists for them. I think we've always been, broadly speaking, more supportive than many. I was Megan's last offender in the UK, you know I was. You know I was. I read Harry's book and honestly thought parts of it were really interesting. So, and I'm particularly and I've said it before, particularly what he experienced in Afghanistan, you know, that's as close as I'll ever get to fighting for Britain in a war, reading what he what he had to say about it. So anyway, I just think that it's hopeless and what can they

do to win over some people? They're just fodder for columnists, aren't they, at the end of the day? By the way, Fee and I would love a column, which we obviously would go back on everything we've said and just be really unpleasant about everybody. So the prompt on ChatGPT would be, could you find someone who's extremely attractive, whose large picture we can use whilst we criticise them for any old shit? But the real tragedy is that women prepared to write nasty stuff about other women make a lot of money out of doing so.

They do. And it just, I'm sorry, it's horrible. It always has been, it always will be. If you want to make your living that way, good luck to you. Anonymous, we're back to whether or not to have children. I just thought this was such an interesting perspective. I always knew that I wanted children, but my daughter in law is adamant that she doesn't. My son, who's her husband, does, but you can't have half a child. My husband didn't want kids, but being female, I could have accidents.

And at the end of his life, what he was most proud of, and all he was interested in, were his children. If I'd listened to him, we would both have missed out. But I can't convince my daughter-in-law to reconsider. I'm always... I think it's very, very dodgy, that area of women having the power to have so-called accidents. It's... What do you think about that? Well, I would wonder whether at some point in the future your conscience doesn't catch up with you.

I think sometimes carrying that kind of weight is cold on your back stuff. But if that doesn't happen to you and you can lively go through life, I think there might come a point where that person, your child, as an adult, questions your motives. And also I think if really, if the landscape of parenting isn't what you expect, I wonder how that feels too. And I really wonder what it feels like for the man. Well, to be phoned up, so I've got a son and a daughter, to, and I have thought about this and talked about this with other mums of sons, there is such a massive fear attached to having a son. I think maybe it's easier to think that, you know, because it's the woman who carries the baby

our concerns with our daughters, but actually an accidental pregnancy for a decent young man, I think, must be extraordinarily difficult for the whole family. So I don't know, Jane, I don't know about the accident. Well, let's bring in the wider audience, because I don't know either. Okay Maggie. And I also do think, I'm always surprised that men are prepared to or seemingly don't really think much of relying on the woman using contraception. You know contraception for men is available. You do have the option if you are remotely concerned about a pregnancy that you don't want to be a part of. Yeah. So yeah, let us know. Let us know what you think. Very much so and any opportunity to talk about

prophylactics. I'm just trying to find this a fantastic email we had that was about sex education lessons in school. Oh yes, do find that one, because that's good. Well look, could you do one while I look for it? Because actually, just reverting to the messaging that we got in school, it was an all-girls school, we were quite giggle-some, we were incredibly naive, the poor woman who came to give us a sex education lesson in what would have been, we've been about 14 I think, 13, 14, 15 and she never came back. Oh that's terrible. She refused to come back. What did you do?

You with all your O levels. Well everybody else in the school got much better O levels. I think we just asked too many questions and maybe we didn't take it seriously but I do remember some kind of charts and diagrams being used. Are people still using charts and diagrams? Is anyone still using a carrot? Is that the one you want? It's from Lou. Is it the one with the carrot? Yes, it is the one with the carrot. So Lou is our lovely correspondent whose email is entitled relevantvoices at school forward

slash demonstration penis. Listening to your praise the other day about schools doing an excellent job at getting relevant people to come in to speak to the students about their line of expertise reminded me of this experience. I'm a nurse with a special interest in contraception and sexual health and to set up sexual health clinics locally in colleges. I was asked by our local girls school to go in and speak to the girls about contraception and sexual health. I thought I'd try and make this fun and lighten the mood and quash the embarrassment.

So I went armed with carrots and condoms. That is the store that the high street needs, carrots and condoms. With the purpose of teaching the girls how to put a condom on an erect penis forward slash carrot when and if the need ever arises. Now for people who are just joining this of a sensitive disposition, carrots can't make you pregnant. So we understand what you're saying there, Lou. I think the session went well with the proof in the pudding being that during the break time, my bumper pack of 144 condoms,

plus my large blue demonstration penis was stolen. I never got the condoms back but about six weeks later I was called by the school to say that my blue penis was waiting for me at reception. I've never found out who took it. It could have been the teacher or the students. Well, my blue penis was waiting for me at reception. Right, I'm still thinking about that poor lady who couldn't come back to your school. I'm sorry. Well, I think girls' schools have a certain thing going on, don't they? I mean, they're probably better now. They're just full of wiser girls and I think everybody's looked everything up on the internet by the time you get to PHSE class anyway, but I think the people who go in and talk about sex in schools are very brave Oh, no, they really are. You're wonderful. Yeah, and I'm grateful to you because you've definitely explained some things

You know that are difficult to explain thinking back we we did I mean the the sex education we had I mean it isn't honestly from the dark ages. I know that we did it in the first year at my secondary school, which is also a girl's school, and the teacher, I can't remember her name, she did say, does anybody have any questions? And there was silence, and then a girl who I can still remember, I can remember, I can see you now, I think she might even be in the medical profession. She put her hand up and said, will everyone be able to have a baby, even someone as small as Jane Garvey? I just took her credit. The teacher said, what a ridiculous question!

I thought, well, that, I might tell you, that girl, she had a bit of an early growth spurt, but in the end she ended up not much taller than me. Well, there you go. I hope her labour was pain-free. Got into my radar mode there. Yes. But I think, well I know, I mean every sex education class was just the relentless message of don't get pregnant.

That's all it was. Since then it wasn't actually about sex. It was about what can happen if you have sex. It wasn't about how to have sex. It's quite valuable to learn how to have sex. You are 100% right because I remember us being told that in the history of the school they'd only had one pregnancy. Yeah you're right, it was fear. Do not be that girl. No and you know if you don't if you don't arm people with knowledge they make them vulnerable and

there was just so much else that needed to be said about sex. Yeah. You know this was the 1980s and you know predatory had a capital P back then. So I know it's changed I think I think people who go into schools now just do fantastic stuff actually especially around Andrew Tate, misogyny, pornography, harmful stuff. I think there's such decent, decent work and really, really thoughtful stuff going on there, which saves your bacon as a parent. So many thanks to all of you for doing that very, very super work. It's all right, what are those two men doing? It's an inappropriate time to ask that question.

I was distracted by a screen in the studio that's showing a cricket match, I think, where two middle-aged men appear to be anyway. What were they doing? Well, one was holding the other one's shorts and sort of bouncing him up and down. Oh, no one was watching the cricket. This is from Louise who describes herself as living in deepest Wiltshire. I've booked a ticket to come and see you. When are we on? We are on. We're sold out on the 4th, but you can still get tickets, limited availability on the 8th.

This is a bit shattering though. She says, I'm looking forward forward to it but I couldn't persuade anyone else to come with me. I don't think we've ever been big in Wiltshire to be honest. Louise I'm sorry but she says I've decided to be brave and I'm coming on my own. This is a big deal for a girl from the countryside who in all honesty is a bit scared of London. I'm 51 I think it might be my first solo tube journey. Right, Louise, please don't be worried. London is, I mean, by the way, I totally sympathise with the whole agony about using public transport in a place that seems incredibly complicated. But actually, it's much less complicated, isn't it, than you might think? Well if you're going to if you're coming in from Deepest Wiltshire

I think you might... She'll come into Paddington won't she? Or maybe Waterloo, depending on the change. Yes, going by randover. As you can see we've travelled the length and breadth of the land. These are on the right side of town so getting to the Barbican won't take too long and yeah don't worry about the tube and also and I think we'll say this at the start of both the shows won't we at the Barbican if you've come on your own then just turn around and say hello to the person next door to you know their name

you don't have to then form a lifelong friendship but you know just know that there are lots and lots of people in the audience who are on their own and effectively Jane you and I are on our own on stage. Oh God you are gonna come aren't you? That would be my idea of a nightmare. No I think you should enjoy it. Recreate this magic on my own. I mean obviously deep down I would. Exactly, I don't think it's that deep, is it?

Oh dear. I'm still mulling over your O level results. They're very impressive. They're not impressive at all. They're better than mine. No, they're not. You've got more A's, haven't you? I did do RE. You've got more O levels. No, I only got two A's.

So you've got fewer A's but more O levels. But you trumped me with your A levels. It's a stunning set. So weren't. I actually have missed out one of them because I got a D in general studies. That's just for pedants. I'm sure she did general studies. Yes I did. Oh my god. Do you remember general studies? No. Who's the guest? We'll do more. Don't worry. We'll do more on general studies tomorrow. I think Eve may have died. Come on. You want work to be less hard work. You hear an ad for MHR, so you reach out. We connect your department systems, which leads to real-time data sharing that uncovers new insights, which empower your decision makers and triple monthly sales, which leads to high fives and awkward hugs.

You say a big thank you, we say you're welcome. MHR, the science behind HR, payroll and finance. The science behind a new world of work. Discover more at MHRglobal.com. Now our guest this afternoon is Lindsay Nicholson. I've just finished her memoir, Perfect Bound. It's subtitled, A Memoir of Trauma, Heartbreak and the Words That Save Me. It is worth pointing out that Lindsay has had the most astonishingly successful career. She was the longest serving editor of the magazine Good Housekeeping.

She got to the top of her game and actually significantly she stayed there too. Sometimes she'd admit herself that her dedication to work probably saved her. She would retreat to the office after the tragic deaths of her husband John and eldest daughter Ellie from rare blood cancers. Two years into her second marriage she herself got breast cancer. Her husband was kind and supportive, but when she was in a terrible motorway accident caused by a man attempting to take his own life, he significantly did not rush to her side. Their marriage fell apart and Lindsay ended up in

a cell when the couple had a tussle over a mobile phone. I hope that gives you some idea of what Lindsay has gone through and Lindsay I hope it's not awful for you to have to sit and listen to that but I just feel it's significant people do need to know exactly what you've gone through. Yeah it's quite a lot isn't it? That's one way of putting it, it really is a lot. Can we start where you sort of begin Perfect Bound with the accident, it was in the Lake District, wasn't it? Yeah, well, the first accident was driving home from my mother's.

That's right, forgive me. I mean, I didn't know what caused the accident. All I knew was that a lorry appeared to be sideways across the carriageway and I hit was that a lorry appeared to be sideways across the carriageway and I hit it at 70 miles an hour. And I didn't think I would die, I thought I was actually dead. And I wasn't, which is extraordinary that such a thing can happen. And then things began to fall apart after that, quite a rapid rate. And there was, in fact, I was given my car back,

the insurance company said it was mended and there was another crash in the Lake District. A couple of weeks later, really not long. So as if that wasn't bad enough, you were at that time an individual who'd already been through so much suffering. And I think what's hugely significant about Perfect Bound is that you're pretty much a stranger to self-pity. There's one bit of the book where you actually say, I think it's on page 199, which I made a note of because you actually at that point say, it's as if I hear a rumbling quiet at

first then growing louder and growing louder, building to an almighty roar that encompasses my whole being, a howl of rage that seems as if it could engulf the whole universe. What more must I do? I've tried to be such a good girl, no matter what fate has done to me. And I think that was my impression reading the book, was honestly, Lindsay, what had you done to deserve all this? You must have asked yourself that question. Actually, I mean, that was a really bad moment. That was the why me moment. There weren't many why me moments. And I suppose something I feel very strongly.

And one of the reasons I wrote the book is that this kind of stuff happens to an awful lot of people, not everyone. It tends not to happen or to have happened so much to people who have big careers in the media, then can talk about it. Right, yeah. So there tends to be a sort of view of the world which comes from people who have access to big platforms, which says that mostly things go right. And I don't think that's true in the world. Obviously, this is for a lot of people. But when I go out and I talk about my book to people, or people read the book, people come up to me and they tell me stories that are not

that dissimilar from mine. I'm not the only one. And so, yes, I did have my big why me moment. But mostly, I think, there's a lot of this stuff. There's a lot of pain and anguish out there. And I have survived and I would have liked when I was going through it to read a story of someone else who'd survived. I think that's really interesting and I take note of the fact that you're pointing out that you have a platform and that suffering is actually everywhere and happens to everybody,

so I think that's really important. You have written another memoir, the first book focused on the deaths of your husband and eldest child, and that book ended with, it was happy because you met your second husband. So at what point did you begin to realise that he wasn't quite what you'd hoped he would be? With that car crash. I mean, which sounds, possibly, probably, it wasn't. The marriage wasn't perfect, well almost definitely, he was having an affair. But I was, I developed a way of coping that was about working very hard at a job that I adored, at spending a lot of time committed to my surviving daughter, at being very busy, at having lots of friends. And I just chose not to look at bad things in life.

So presumably there were things wrong with the marriage marriage but I have no idea what they were. So it came as a terrific shock to me with that first crash that he didn't come and get me and that things really spiralled out of control very fast after that, culminating in a night in a cell. And the argument you had at your home was when you confronted him with the knowledge that you now knew that he was, or suspected? I suspected and he was texting and I asked to see the phone and he said no it's private, which is kind of a weird thing for a husband to say to a wife and I said, you know, if it's innocent, you'll show it to me. And he appeared to offer me the phone and I took it, but he wasn't offering me the phone

and we struggled with it. And the phone flew through the air and landed on the floor and broke. And he picked up the landline and called the police. And you were taken away? I was, yeah. I spent 16 and a half hours in a cell. Now you are someone who knows the great and the good. You've been everywhere, you've met everybody, you've got some numbers on that phone and there you were and there's a bit where you just have to go to the loo and you realise that you're being watched.

Yes, closed circuit TV. And I understand why the closed circuit TV is there. I had very strong suicidal thoughts because the entire world I knew was shattering around me. There's no way of doing anything about it. They take all your possessions away from you. But also I needed to use the loo. So I held off as long as I could. And one of the things that sticks in my mind is that I was wearing a Donna Karan outfit.

I was wearing a designer outfit and it was sort of big, loose cashmere jumper. And I sort of pulled that down and used the loo, aware that probably, you know, I was being seen doing that. Now you were waiting for the duty solicitor, I think, weren't you? Yes. And he arrived, I think it was a man, arrived in the end. Yes.

And you were released without charge, the whole thing. Yes. Yeah, went away. But very significantly, your brilliant daughter, Hope, came to collect you, and she came up with a great line. Yes, she drove up in her car, she was 24 at the time, she drove up in the car and I was kind of released from the police station and I got in the passenger seat and she went, oh mum this should have been the other way round. Well, I mean not every daughter gets to pick her mum up from a night in the police cells. Yeah. I mean I'm tempted to say that must have been

the lowest point for you but actually you've been through so much I don't think it was really was it? No, I mean no because that was 16 and a half hours in the cell. I spent eight months in Great Ormond Street sleeping next to my daughter's bed. It didn't even, you know, 16 hours in cell doesn't even touch the sides compared with that. Yeah and I can imagine that and there'll be people listening who think yeah who cares you know that is obviously the biggest challenge of the lot. Do you think, you're very honest about your commitment to work, was it a saviour for you or were you at times too obsessed with your professional life? I was a workaholic. You know, we all choose the things that distract us from things we

don't want to face up to and I was lucky I had an amazing, very well-paid job that was, you know, I would have done for free quite frankly and I loved it and I enjoyed it and I used that to distract myself from, I mean I think I really only processed my grief in the past few years since all of that happened. Do you now allow yourself to grieve and to acknowledge that quite frankly, Lindsay, you have had far more than your, what you might call, fair share of appalling bad luck. I think one thing about grief is it's really uncomfortable. I mean, it's kind of like having sort of rats under your skin or something. It feels really uncomfortable.

No one wants to sit there and feel those feelings if they can think of any way of avoiding it. And I avoided it for a long time until it became impossible not to deal with it. If you can sit there and feel it, it does actually go away and get better. And how did you get better in speech marks? Well I was made redundant from my job so I didn't have the distraction of work anymore and I had to do other things. One thing I did was I trained as a life coach.

I don't work as a life coach because I realized that I was fairly crazy at that point, no help to anybody. But it taught me a lot about the human mind, about my mind. And I started paying attention to, I mean, I would say to, I was actually talking to someone who was going through a tough time over Christmas. And I said, look, go out for a walk every day and when you get home, cook yourself a proper meal.

Yeah. It's that simple. I would agree with that, the practical things. And sometimes cutting and chopping and stirring and sniffing are the best therapy that you can have. Can I ask you a completely different question? Do you think that our children and grandchildren will really know what a magazine is? Oh, I hope so. I love magazines. I love print magazines. I love paper. I love the smell of a new magazine. Remember that smell? I hope so. I think there's a real... Bankers are having a tough time.

But then books had a tough time. Radio had a tough time. No! Gone too far. I think there's a way through. I believe there's a way through. I've got a one-year-old granddaughter. She loves to read. Well, read, you know. We do books together. I would hate to think that she wouldn't know.

There's something about that, magazines you can just pick up and put down. Books require a lot of commitment. There's that moment in the day when you want to pick up a magazine and just flick. And I hope so. Jane and I were reliving our joy at magazines, which we have read all the way through our lives. You particular did smash hits well you're an early I'm only here

now because I didn't get that job at smash hits I went for you did Jackie yeah no seriously it's not funny but you're absolutely right there's some there's something about buying a magazine where you know that you've got a pot of joy that you can dive into but but it doesn't ask very much of you. It's such a pleasing kind of concept, isn't it? It is. And the other thing about magazines as well is it's that beautiful combination of words and pictures together. I mean, oh, the photography that we used to do. The Christmas shoots would take... I loved hearing about those. Oh, yes! It'd take weeks. You'd be doing them in July. Yes, in July.

I mean, and we'd have a cast of not hundreds, but getting on for a hundred. I remember when you, we had three different Christmas tree decorators, because we had so many Christmas trees that they were all being decorated at different times. Right, and you'd have presumably, I don't know, a cover star like Jamie Oliver. Yes.

And he'd be, the fairy lights would be all over him. Yes. Christmas jumper. Christmas jumper. 33 Celsius outside. Yes. I mean, you must miss the rhythm of that life. Oh, I love it. Yes. Yeah. It was very nice.

It was... You work for a month on an issue and then it's gone and you move on to the next thing. But, you know, and also the teamwork. I loved working as a team. So now I don't work as a team so much and I do miss that as well. Lindsay, thank you very much indeed for coming in.

Really appreciate it. I also just wanted to mention that your well. Lindsay, thank you very much indeed for coming in, really appreciate it. I also just wanted to mention that your daughter Hope comes across brilliantly in the book, so does your mum. Yes. She's a towering figure and dogs and a horse played a... And a horse, Pablo, yes. Yeah, played a significant role as well. It was really interesting to talk to you, thank you very much.

Thank you. That is Lindsay Nicholson and her book is out now, it's called Perfect Bound. Now who's the guest tomorrow? Paula Radcliffe is going to join us tomorrow. She's going to talk about her podcast which details how better to train for marathons that we have plenty to talk to her about. She is actually running some marathons again so I look forward to that. I'll come in in my joggers, I'll do a little bit of a limbering up. Oh, shall we both wear our joggers? Shall we? Have you got joggers? Yeah, of course. Well, I'm permanently in an elasticated waist, but I'm not here.

OK. Right. Do you have those funny ones with the mesh down the side? Oh, no, no. I don't like those at all. I mean, I'm going to an exercise class to get rid of the stuff that's on my legs, you know, so because I don't want people to see it at the moment. What's on your legs? It resembles something from O-level geography, legs, you know, so because I don't want people to see it at the moment because it resembles

something from O-level geography, a kind of weird ectoplasm spread up the side of a mountain. Anyway, so I don't want to buy something that's going to reveal all of that whilst I'm trying to firm it up. I don't see the point. Who's buying that stuff? David Attenborough will soon be ploughing a furrow through whatever's on Fee's legs. David Attenborough came up in our predictions this year, Jo. Oh right, let's not, okay, thank you enough now. We'll speak tomorrow. If anybody is still awake after that O-level chat, can I just say you deserve a very, very special award. You definitely knew how to concentrate in class. Turns out we didn't. Goodbye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every

day Monday to Thursday 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. You want work to be less hard work? You hear an ad for MHR, so you reach out. We connect your department systems, which leads to real-time data sharing that uncovers new insights, which empower your decision makers and triple monthly sales, which leads to high fives and awkward hugs. You say a big thank you, we say you're welcome. MHR, the science behind HR, payroll and finance. The science behind a new world of work.

Discover more at MHRglobal.com