Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Cabinet musical chairs - Rishi's first day as PM

Episode Date: October 25, 2022

Rishi Sunak has started appointing his cabinet after being officially asked by King Charles to form a new government.Jane and Fi chat about that and the other big stories of the day including a shortage of cat skin in Japanese banjo making...And, they're joined by Britain's first black female professor of history, Dr Olivette Otele.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Off Air with me, Jane Garvey. And me, Fee Glover. And we are fresh from our brand new Times Radio show, but we just cannot be contained by two hours of live broadcasting. So we've kept the microphones on, grabbed a cuppa, and are ready to say what we really think. Unencumbered and off air i might just wear coming in a bikini tomorrow it's even hotter in here than it is in the studio it is

hot i keep wanting to do an item on how hot it is and every single day when I suggest it people just go, they just sort of look the other way and then take up another line of questioning and move on to something else. But it is really weird because on Thursday of this week, and I am a bit of a slave to my weather apps, it's 21 Celsius in London

and it's nearly November and I'm sorry but that's weird. It is weird. Now I'm with you on wanting to do that, but you're right. We're learning what the looks of the editorial team are, aren't we? Well, every single day I'm going to keep on suggesting, can we do an item on the weather because it's really hot? I do remember, maybe you recall, Halloween probably, it must be a while ago because my kids were young enough

for me to be taking them trick-or-treating when it was also very warm. It must have been 10 years years ago maybe 15 years ago and people did comment about it at the time but we seem to be back in that sort of weather right now anyway fascinating I'm serious about this I think it's it happened the fact that it's playing havoc with my middle-aged female attempts to sleep at night because I am I mean look I don't want it to be cold in the evening when I'm watching the telly but I would like it to be colder at night okay if anyone's still there welcome to Off Air with me Fee Glover and her Jane Garvey at any moment she might strip down to her undies oh deary me but I I'm with you it's a tad on the warm side. So we had an incredibly busy programme today

because the cabinet was being shuffled by our new Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, and a lot of people were going into No. 10 Downing Street, but not as many coming out. Did you notice that? I think he's holding them hostage in there. I think it's going to be one of the biggest stories of our times when it finally comes out. We kept on saying, james cleverly's gone in so the bravman's

gone in to raise coffee's gone in and they just weren't coming out so as we speak there's something funny going on in there have you ever been inside downing street i have yes it's a strange old place isn't it a couple of receptions there and there is something you received by uh gordon brown oh yeah and there is something extraordinary about walking up that stairs with all of the portraits of the former prime ministers uh just hang there i i always um i mean it doesn't happen to me very often being in those kind of places but i always have to catch myself because i think oh i've seen this on a film that's how we know it isn't it we? We've seen it in, you know, Love Actually. Exactly, with Hugh Grant.

That's the film, isn't it? And you know that that's not actually the real one. You've seen a very clever mock-up. That remains one of the great, terrible, but you do find yourself watching it on an almost annual basis. I haven't watched it for years. Haven't you? No. It's still terrible. And there's some really dubious plot lines in it now

which do not bear the test of time. Well, there's one about the porn couple, isn't there? There's the porn actors, one of whom is Martin Freeman. But it's better than the one where Andrew Lincoln plays a stalker. That's absolutely terrible. Okay. That's really awful. That's not going to be on my list of revisits. And then there's the other terrible film I watch every year

with Cameron Diaz and Kate Winslet. The holiday one. I love that, but that doesn't make sense because now Airbnb's taken over and you wouldn't have to do that type of a home swap, would you? No, you really wouldn't. You'd just be rating and reviewing endlessly. Anyway, as we speak, it's just after five o'clock on Tuesday night,

and so we don't know all about the cabinet, how it looks under Rishi Sunak. And you will find out, though, if you pay attention to Times Radio, because they'll certainly be the first to tell you. Yeah. I think it's easy to be cynical, isn't it, about the kind of... It's easy to be cynical now, yes. About the process of politics.

But it's an important cabinet, Jane, isn't it? It's a cabinet of all the talents available so you're right stay with Times Radio and you'll hear everything that you need to know we love hearing from you all so do continue to get in touch

on email janeandfee at times.radio or you can tweet us at times radio using the hashtag I didn't know we had one hashtag Jane and Fee and don't forget to follow us if you can and us at times radio using the hashtag i didn't know we had one hashtag jane and fee and don't forget to follow us if you can and leave a review of the podcast wherever it is you're listening to us right now well that'd be very kind but i mean everybody's busy so you know put it on a list and see whether you can i think would be what i'd say about it now we didn't get to cover because we were so busy in the program all of our other stories that we picked from the

newspapers you've got one that I'm quite glad we didn't have to talk about on earth because actually I think it just sounds really bizarre it's a very important story this cat skin banjo is out of tune with the times it happens to be from the times this story but wherever I'd seen it I'd have picked it and I do think it's very very interesting. It's about the elongated three stringed banjo. It's bloody awful by the way. It has a piercing twangy note and it's the instrument played by geisha in their tea houses and as the accompaniment to folk songs and classical plays. So it's Japanese. It's extraordinarily important to Japanese culture. They're traditionally made of mulberry wood, sandalwood, silk and ivory. But the most important

ingredient is the hide that's stretched over the sound box. I hope you're not going to say that it is actually. It is the cured hide of the domestic cat. Now, I include this because... How can you bring this story to me, knowing that I'm still in my grieving time? I know, for punky-ponk. Pinky-ponks. Your cat, your pinky-ponks. Sorry. Yes, I'm sorry.

I am including it partly because my rescue cat, Tabby Dora, is once again in disgrace after last night disguising herself behind a plant pot, a potted plant. It turns out actually rather successfully and making an attack, a leaping attack on a friend of mine who'd come round for a small glass of white wine. She just went for it in a way that was completely ungovernable and very unwelcome and just simply something I wish she'd stop. It's just she can't keep doing this. She leaps onto the back of people and clings onto the back of their, whatever they're wearing, with her teeth.

Well, I haven't been round to your house very often, but when I did. Exactly. And I went to stroke her, and she just attached herself. Yeah, she's awful. All around my hand. And, you know, whatever it is, that funny sport in the Olympics where you have to throw some kind of a discus. I felt the need to do that.

But that doesn't mean I want her to be made into a Japanese banjo. I want to make that absolutely clear. But why don't you get a little recording of the Japanese banjo and just play it gently in the background, see whether or not she gets the message. The problem is, for decades after World War II, professional cat catchers supplied makers this is a horrible story with the skins of stray cats but um attitudes to pets have changed in japan which i'm glad about and stray cats are not so plentiful anyway let's move on to to something

a little nicer okay well the only other story that I was going to mention from today's news was this wonderful one about how gaming can actually be hugely beneficial to the young mind. So a study out of Vermont University says of 2,000 nine and ten-year-olds found that their cognitive function if they played games on consoles

for more than three hours a day was actually better than those who didn't. And I love that story because it's just, you know, for those of us who've got kids who are, you know, very into gaming, it's easy to just always, always think about the dark side of it and just the endless get off your PS4,

get off your... You know, it drives people really mad. So it's always really heartening to see something like that. But also, I commend them for the timing. During half-term, that is an absolutely brilliant piece of PR. It would have relaxed a few parents. Oh, my word, I've been happy all day. By the way, aren't the public transport facilities of London

overburdened with half-term trippers this week? There's a lot. Can you all just go home, please? Don't say that you miserable woman. I'm trying to get to work and get home and these bloody kids with their mums and dads all looking at the Tower of London again. We had a very interesting guest on our show this afternoon. October is Black History Month and so we invited Professor Oliverette Attele,

who's Britain's first black female professor of history, onto the show. She'd been appointed professor of the history of slavery at the University of Bristol in 2019. Research had suggested that some of the wealthy local families who helped establish that university had profited from the slave trade and she told us it wasn't easy at Bristol from the start. I think I wasn't given the means to actually conduct the research properly and it was an environment where I felt particularly safe. It's not just the university as you might be aware when I was appointed as the first black woman professor, I received a huge number of letters, very unpleasant messages and threats. And it continues at the University of Bristol. So I didn't particularly feel safe and protected there.

So you worked initially, didn't you, at Bath Spa University? Yes. Why would your appointment inspire people to send abusive messages? What do you think is the reason for that? Well, I think it's to do with my colour, to be quite blunt. It's to do with the fact that people like me are not expected to hold those kind of positions. And there's always suspicion attached to the fact that as a person of African descent I wouldn't be able to do historical research to the highest standards.

And was that something that was ever muttered either to your face or behind your back amongst your contemporaries, amongst other academics? Well, it's never been something that people would dare say to my face. So it was done through letters. It was done sometimes in discussions where you are asked if you're sure about what you found or if you're sure about this and that archival material, when actually those archival materials are to be found at the National Archives and you're just relaying the information. Can you tell us what kind of a toll all of that took on you personally? It was very hard for me because I considered myself to be a rigorous historian and not complacent at all with regard to the history of colonial history as a whole. And it was physically difficult, emotionally difficult

as well, because I was constantly tired and having to justify oneself. It's just something that I wasn't expected to have to do as a professor. My understanding is that you came to the UK from France because you thought it would be a better, not just working environment, but a better place for you and your family to live. What would you say about that decision now? Well, there's a huge difference between my everyday life and my academic life or public profile because I feel perfectly happy and safe and welcome. It happened 22 years ago, I believe. And because this is where the hostility was the most felt or I felt the most unsafe really. So is it because you are a black woman saying what some people in Britain still find desperately unpalatable they're just not ready yet to hear about our involvement in slavery? Yes, I think there's also the fact that it's the kind of history I do.

We have been so far taught about conquest, taught about abolition, but the details about black agency, black liberation, and the very, very important details about the whole story, the full disclosure, hasn't happened. So when somebody like me is talking about black liberation, people are thinking that I have an agenda, when actually these are historical facts. Doesn't every historian have an agenda?

I mean, when we think about the amount of history written and interpreted by white men, they are only ever approaching it from that perspective. They can't do anything else, can they? Yes, I strongly believe that history is highly political. But then my agenda is not necessarily what they think it is. My agenda is full disclosure. The good, the bad, the ugly. And we tend to want to talk about the good as in the conquest and how Britain conquered the world and made the world a better place. But it's a bit more nuanced than that. How did you find the coverage of the death of Her Majesty the Queen?

It was an interesting moment for me. As a historian, I really wanted to stay away from that and not be drawn into the kind of performative aspect of the whole thing. But at the same time, I'm working on Sites of Memory, and for me, this was a living site of memory. It's how we are writing the narrative now that would be taught to future generation was incredibly important. But at the same time, it was something deeply

personal as well, not necessarily as a child of Africa, but as somebody who's lost parents and who's lost family members and a grandmother in particular. I find it, it might seem contentious to see this, but I found it unbearable to actually look at the new king mourning his mother publicly. There's something quite disturbing about it. But at the same time, again, coming from, you know, being born in Africa, you celebrate the death and for nine days. So I also understand. But it's very difficult. I mean, noticeably absent from so much of the conversation around her death was any acknowledgement, really, of the history of the family and a recognition of slavery, of colonialism, of the imperial nature. And I did hear a couple of historians say, you know, that absence really does just tell you

everything you need to know about how far we have got to get, because we should already be in a place where we can talk about those things without necessary upset, with just acknowledgement there. Would you agree with that? Yes, I would. But I think the problem was that we didn't start the conversation before her death. And the death, you know, her passing just ignited so many things and triggered so many people.

And there was indeed a kind of monochrome, linear dialogue about her as a monarch and not necessarily about her links to the past, her ancestors, because she was, I mean, she was a head of state. So it wasn't just about the family mourning. It was a national moment of recognition, but also of a moment that we could have used to take stock. But I also, having said that, I also acknowledge that it's very hard to do both at the very same time. People were, you know, the cue,

the famous cue was told you what you needed to know about what people wanted to to hear about you didn't want to hear about the past and yet we needed to talk about it and would you have felt well do you feel safe now as a black female historian making comments like the ones you've just made are you slightly worried that there'll be some sort of negative reaction to them there there's always negative reaction i'm pretty sure that i'll receive um well having said that so as is very very good at protecting me um and and you know taking me away away from those communication or rather protecting the communication around that. But there's always, always comments and negative comments.

And I've come to terms with that. What made me uncomfortable really is the dishonesty and the fact that I want to be criticized as a historian. I want to be criticised as a historian, but being criticised because of the colour of my skin is something that is incredibly reactionary and unpleasant. Yeah. What do you think about the fact that some people in Britain would say we've never been more conspicuously diverse? Look at the cabinet, for example. Look at this amazing cross section of talent of all sorts of different ethnicities. This is not a racist country. How can can it be what would you say to that oh there are three things at least that i want to address there it is true where we are now in britain it's something to be celebrated it's a moment to be celebrate to celebrate simply because i remember an interview some years ago, somebody asked me, which time in history would you like to have lived? And I mean, for me, it was obvious, it's now,

because me in the 18th century Britain, I don't know how I would offend it. So this is a beautiful moment. But we shouldn't be complacent, because there are still many things that we need to do in terms of teaching that history, many things to do in terms of teaching that history, many things to do in terms of recognizing that there is something called institutionalized racism, systemic racism, that you can see through microaggression at your workplace, that you can see when people of African descent or Asian descent are not given the same opportunities, when there's still economic inequalities that are also linked to people's racial ethnicity, race and ethnicity. So these are not new things, but completely be oblivious to that is really, for me, quite dangerous. Is there a major institution in Britain that isn't in some way linked to the slave trade?

Perhaps 100 years ago, perhaps 200, 300, inherited money. What do you think? I have a hard time finding any that is not. And this is when, this is why I think that we tend to focus, for example, when you focus on the monarchy, I don't think that it's unfair, but I think that you need to think about the banking industry. You need to think about big institutions, universities, that were funded with money coming from plantation and slavery.

You think about insurance companies, the cultural industry, royal societies and so on and so forth. So we need to have an honest conversation about this, not necessarily finger pointing, but actually say that it completely shaped Britain, but also European history and cultural and social and economic landscape. And that's what, you know, why I talk about being honest and full disclosure. What do you think about Black History Month as an idea? Should it continue to exist? Or

should we get to a stage where we don't need it? It simply wouldn't be a requirement. Well, I do think we still need it. Actually, there are places where people don't understand or know or want to celebrate or want to talk about black history at all. So this one month of the year is completely insufficient for me. But there are places where they don't even talk about that. So I think it's still much needed. But this idea that it's only one month, it's a bit strange. Wales has done incredible.

I have to talk about Wales because that's my home. They have done incredible work because there's Black History Month 365. And it's all year long. There have been changes in the curriculum. Black History Month 365, and it's all year long. There have been changes in the curriculum. This is a first in the United Kingdom, I believe, where you are actually, children will be taught black history, Asian history, and so on and so forth.

Many things are happening as we speak. So I think that there's still much work to do, to be done. Do you know what, I was amazed to read that black history doesn't have to be in the primary school curriculum, that it's a matter of choice for a school, whether or not they put it in. I mean, it just it does seem extraordinary that that's still the case. I mean, that just doesn't reflect the makeup of our society, does it? Exactly. And that is a problem. Resistance to teaching that history tells you what you need to know about the kind of legacies, the pervasive legacies of the past, when we believe that all is well, we don't need to learn

about these connections with the past and with these connections with the rest of the world that Britain has had for centuries. And what it also tells me is that people tend to see Black history as only a history linked to slavery, when actually in my book African Europeans, I'm showing, I'm demonstrating that the history started a very long time ago, you know, we all know about, you know, the African, well, African Roman Septimius Severus, we know about Roman empires, and how diverse it was, and how the Roman Empire shaped the rest of Europe and many other stories. So it doesn't have to start and actually it doesn't start with slavery. Do you know how many schools do choose to put Black history, Asian history, other cultures

history into their lessons? Well, in Wales, as I said, it's now compulsory in england uh i don't actually what i do know in england is that you have social enterprises doing the work you have non-profit organization going to school and offering their services and you have weekend community community houses offering weekend classes for young children about that. And that shouldn't be the case. It should be on the national, well, English national curriculum. Yeah. Would you recommend that, let's say someone listening to this is a young woman, a woman of colour, extraordinarily bright, really interested in history. Could you honestly, hand on heart, recommend a career in academia to that young woman?

I thought you were going to ask, looking into history, learning about history. In academia, as it stands, I would be wary about this. What I would say to them is that you need to be very aware of the kind of obstacles that you will be facing. And they are huge. But then again, my parents didn't want me to go into academia. They didn't want at all. They didn't want me to do history. And I wanted to do it. And I loved it.

And I think it's a beautiful career when when you know when things work well really but have you ever well perhaps you can tell us about the moment at which you were most shocked by the ignorance of a white academic it's when I have academics who are working on slavery telling me that maybe I need to focus more on the cultural heritage aspect, the celebration aspect, celebratory aspect of black history and talk about carnivals and leave the hard stuff, meaning archival material and slave earners' diaries

to them because, after all, it's more to do with their communities. That's something that tends to shock me. Right. I mean, I'm laughing, but only out of a sense of... So a white person really would say that to you? Oh, yes, they have in the past. You know, it would work better for me. It was given as an advice, well-meaning advice, saying if you talked more about the celebration, the music, the sport, you wouldn't have so many people coming at you and, you know, trying to abuse you, which is ridiculous.

OK, well, let's put some bunting across this interview and then maybe more people will stay with it. Do you feel at all optimistic that maybe in 10 years' time, in 20 years' time, if we revisited this interview, we wouldn't have to be talking about the same kind of things and asking you the same kind of questions? kind of things and asking you the same kind of questions? I'm generally a huge optimist.

I have to be. And I strongly believe that things change, but they change at a very slow pace. And I would say that it's not just about academia. It's the whole of society that needs to change. You know, we talk about police brutality brutality it has an impact on my work we talk about um let's say um the nhs and the the disproportionate number of black black women dying in childbirth for example neglect and all that it has an impact on me as a mother but also

on me as a as a researcher so I would hope that academia would be better, and I'm convinced it would be better, but the rest of the world needs to follow for me to really feel comfortable and confident. Can money, can bad money be put to good uses? I mean, I'm thinking about Bristol University and other institutions that have beautiful buildings named after people who were slave traders. I think so. I'm convinced that it can be simply because there is such a thing as restorative justice.

Restorative justice is about trying to address imbalances, trying to identify where there are inequalities for everybody, trying to support people who are in the greatest need. So yes, definitely, I believe, I strongly believe in scholarships. I believe in supports to help careers and so many other things that can be done. So, yes. What would you advise for white people who live in Britain and perhaps for perhaps genuinely no fault of their own, they don't know enough about the history of their own country. And by that, I mean they have chosen to

or have been allowed to ignore the bad parts. What should they do? I think, you know, there are things that everybody can start at their own level. Are they in their communities, in their cities or town or even regions? Were there black people living in there? You know, the local archives are fabulous places to start with. Do they have links with other parts of the world, Asia, Africa? And I think people can just try and find out first what their own communities,

what the kind of links that their own communities had with other communities. And if they're not particularly interested in the past, what they can do is, I always do that, I do that with children, the origins of spices, of cloth, of all kinds of things that are part of the British cultural and social fabric.

It's a fabulous way to learn about other people's cultures. And are you now, Oliver, happy? Because by happy, I mean happy in a... I'll rephrase this. Are you content and protected in your current working environment? Because reading about you, it sounds as though you've had some challenges and that's understating it in the past. Yes, I feel content because this massive thing that I had in my chest, in my brain,

and that was just awful, is gone. I feel relieved and it's weird to say this, but I feel freer to actually talk about Bristol, talk about other universities, because I feel that, you know, there's no constraint for me as an employee, but also I have a job that I love and and we'll see how it goes but so far so good. And can I ask you about your students do they fill you with joy or do you sometimes hold your head in your hands? No you know what that's and I could say that's the early area where I feel utterly, utterly happy, elated. They are wonderful young people who are, I call them the soldiers of love. It's Shade's title, one of Shade's songs.

But they are invigorating. They are incredibly positive. And they challenge me because many of them think that I'm not radical enough. And then that was the case in Bath, in Bristol, and so us. So yeah, apparently I'm not radical enough. That was Dr. Olivette Otelli. And the University of Bristol gave us a statement. It says we are and continue to be extremely proud to have appointed Professor Olivette Otelli and the University of Bristol gave us a statement. It says we are and continue to be extremely proud to have appointed Professor Olivette Otelli to the University of Bristol. We're very grateful to her for the contribution she's made to our community and to the wider city over the last three years. We recognise that this was a challenging time for her and welcome the fact that she's been able to highlight unacceptable behaviours where they exist in our organisation. We are fully committed to addressing those cultural

practices that perpetuate the under-representation of black academics at our university. But it is important, I think, that we acknowledge that we received this email. We know your name and thank you for providing it, but they asked to remain anonymous. I worked for many years at a university in the south west of England. Racism amongst academic staff was commonplace. An anonymous reporting system was implemented. However, the Vice Chancellor didn't respond to reports. In fact, they were actively racist themselves, asking for images of people of colour to be removed from marketing materials. I reported racism and discriminatory incidents time and time again, but they were never responded to. In fact,

instead I was told to stop going on about it. I ended up having time off due to depression and then resigned shortly after. Universities with entirely white leadership teams do nothing to confront racism, as they are often its worst perpetrators. They hold the power and therefore they can choose to ignore the pain this is causing to thousands of staff and students across the UK. Well that is a really depressing email and I'm so sorry to that correspondent that they had such a tough time. The more I hear about life on campus and at universities for both students and staff, the more grateful I am that I went a long, long time ago, Jane. Yeah, I don't think racism at university, you really would think that institutions that are set up to challenge convention, to be places where free thinking and free expression. That are meant to be full of clever people.

Absolutely. Clever people. It's very disheartening. Well, more than that. And yeah, absolutely dismal. Right. A slightly negative note to end on, but nevertheless, important to acknowledge it. Well, one final one comes from Rosie, who says,

Hello, gals. Great listening to your comings and goings in 10 Downing Street. I'm doing the Times code word, but keeping abreast of the appointments. It's like listening to two friends peering out through the net curtains. I think you'll find that's wooden slatted blinds, but thank you, Rosie. That is kind of what we are. We're paid to be the sort of fishwives of News UK. We're paid to be the questioning fishwives of Times Radio. That's what we are.

I think very much so. We're paid to do the radio equivalent of having a cup of tea and dunking your biscuits in it. Yeah, but you have reminded me I do need to get some blow white. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the

live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.