Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Fuming your way through your own funeral (with David Dimbleby)

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

We've reached a man-banker, and our work here is done! Before that, Jane and Fi chat petrol, late starters, Tartan Week — and there are more postcards. Fi is off next week, and Jane is off the week after that, so Jane Mulkerrins will be filling in for the next two weeks. Plus, David Dimbleby talks about his new podcast, Invisible Hands — on the history of capitalism. Send your suggestions for the next book club pick! If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I've said it before I'm sure but I used to be really baffled. Never stops you from saying it again. It won't be, it hasn't. We've been together a long time now. When I first... You don't want to know about mobile walkways looking. No. Hello.

We're just adjusting ourselves. Listen, we're on it. We're with you. It is Thursday. Now, Fee's off next week and so it'll be Minxie Mulkerrans with a double dose of Jane, Monday to Thursday next week. And then Tuesday to Thursday, the week after, Jane's off. So it will be Jane and Fee, but the other Jane. That's right. Yeah, does everyone across this? I shouldn't think so for a minute. Can I just show you? It's a bit like the Christmas schedules isn't it? I just have a very large sherry and everything will be an awful lot

better. Yeah. Do get ahead of yourself and buy some cranberry over the weekend and then you'll know you're sorted. I just wanted to show you the image of that cat that keeps lurking and I've got a particular, I've got just three, I know this is very visual, but let me just show you three images from the week. There we are. Okay, little cat at the door. Well, it's not little. Okay, big cat at the door. Next, dark, in the dark. Very pretty cat.

It's still out there at 10.30 at night. What's wrong with it? Hang on a second. That has got a very, very... What? That cat wants to come in. It certainly does. The look in his eyes. But he's got beautiful... Oh no, it's lovely. ...fur and he's got kind of white eyeliner around his eyes. He's pleasantly chunky, if it's a he. Does it look kempt?

Yes. Yes, but doesn't have a collar or a bell. Right. Kempt's one of those funny words, isn't it, that nobody actually ever uses. You can be unkempt, but you never see anyone who's smartly dressed wander past. They go, God, don't they look kempt? Well, it's like that brilliant personal ad from the lady, from the woman who wanted somebody sufferable. Yes, that's very good. Yeah, very good.

I hope she's found one, by the way. I took a different route to work today Jane, I walked past a club, it's got quite an odd name and it's definitely a club where predominantly gentlemen of an evening would be entertained by ladies on a stage, one of those, one of those, and we have deep sympathy for people who are doing that job and not enjoying it and completely take on board the fact that some people might be doing it and enjoying it. So cover both bases there. Everything covered, yeah. But the thing that did make me slightly, I raised my eyebrows.

I don't think that'll bring in the punters love, just raising your eyebrows. The main entrance is called the John Andrews entrance and of all of the things that you could be commemorated by. The entrance to a... Was it lap dancing club? Yes. I just wondered who he was. Really? A man with his own entrance.

Because you know, as we've talked about before, you'll drive through the Blackwall Tunnel and you know, it's got a commemoration stone because it was opened by a venerable councillor and quite often you'll have a plaque saying the Princess Royal was here because she's been everywhere, she's a very hard-working person and John Andrews has got the entrance to a club just off the city. So well done Mr Andrews, good on you. He must have put the hours in. The petrol, that's the thing isn't it? Was he a patron? I don't know. The thing is you never know who's listening to this so if someone

has the answer to that are you in a position to name the establishment or would you rather not? Well I don't know because I haven't looked into it in detail. I'll tell you what I'll do some in-depth research. I mean I can name the establishment because I noted it down actually as I was walking past. But presumably John Andrews is no longer with us. But I'll look into it and then see whether or not we can join the dots. Any other of those things would be very amusing to receive. Claire says your comments, in brackets, Tuesday the 8th of April, that in the distant past you used to be served by petrol served petrol by an attendant that you suggested was always a man reminded me of a summer holiday job I

enjoyed in the early 70s I was a miniskirted 17 year old schoolgirl and served customers their petrol in a local garage also offering to check that oil and clean their windscreens I made quite a bit in tips. It does seem like the distant past as at that time if the garage was shut you could put a pound note in the automatic dispenser and you've got three gallons of petrol. Wow! Unbelievably, I know, in the wonderful village where we now live the petrol is still dispensed by an attendant. Things change slowly in the countryside. Isn't that wonderful to know?

I can't believe they can sustain that. They still have an attendant. Okay. There's a lot to be said for living outside this big filthy city. Yes, there is. I've said it before, I'm sure, but I used to be really baffled. Never stops you from saying it again. It won't feel it. It hasn't. We've been together a long time now. When I was first... You don't know what about mobile walkways looking? No. When I was first a car owner of my Fiat Panda.

God, that bloody thing. I never understood why people would belly ache about petrol costs rising. Because yours never did. Well, because I just used to get £5 worth of petrol. And I used to think, what's the problem? Why do people, you know, in the budget they put up, and I think, just beat it by just getting five pounds. That's all I ever spent.

Yeah. You didn't go far. No. Well, no. But I just didn't think I'd be affected by the cost of petrol, because I only ever spent five pounds on petrol. And you didn't realise that it wouldn't get you any further? That I was probably getting less petrol as the price went up. I didn't factor that in

fee. Right, okay. I didn't study economics as regular listeners will know. Well, I've just done a pre-recorded interview that will go out at a later stage with Sarah Davis and we know her best from Dragon's Den, but she is a serial entrepreneur, a very, very wealthy lady through her own business. When you call somebody a serial entrepreneur, it sounds like they've sort of got form. They've been done for it.

Serial in front of anything is just, it's been ruined actually, hasn't it? That particular term. But we were talking a little bit about risk, because obviously, you know, she's made some of her fortune through just being able to take risk. And it's quite a revealing part of the conversation actually, because as you and I have said before,

I very much feel that my entire life, I have somehow ingested the message that I really shouldn't take financial risks. I mean, it is because you know there isn't a massive great big kind of family trust bank account fall back on and all that kind of stuff but I know also that just in my own way that I've approached money I will always look at that your investments can go up or down and I will focus on the down I will not be able to focus on the up and I have sometimes thought that that's a bit of a gendered thing

because I think society maybe tells us that we shouldn't take too many risks because it will actually, it will fall back on us to pick up the pieces of a lot of other lives maybe as well as our own. But she was so fantastically buoyant about her own attitude to risk I just thought gosh, fantastically buoyant about her own attitude to risk I just thought gosh I can't go blaming it on that it's simply that I haven't understood the markets I haven't understood yields bonds gilts. How did she get started because I don't know her story. So I mean her story is one of starting small I mean as with you know so many businesses starting small and then accumulating she married an accountant and she does say,

you know, that's been an enormously beneficial union because I've got someone who's doing the very basics. I'm just going to write this down, marry accountant. Well, I can't, that's not the only reason why she's successful, but it was just her attitude to it, Jane. I just thought, well, how fabulous, you know, of course we're all different, maybe I should stop hiding behind. Well, I don't know. Society told me I couldn't do it. Don't be held back. Don't be held back. But did she come from a family with an entrepreneurial buccaneering spirit? Good question. I don't know.

Right. I did ask if she'd read The Art of the Deal. It's a very short part of the conversation that. Hadn't she read it? No. I mean, have you? No. Well, he hasn't either, has he? Anyway, we don't want to go on too much about that. Hadn't she read it? No, I mean have you? No, well he hasn't either has he? Anyway, we don't want to go on too much about that anyway him, but just want to bring in Anne who says that I'm a 69 year old expat from London. I've been living mostly in New Jersey

for over 40 years. I'm a long time listener and over the years there have been so many topics I've wanted to chime in on, but here I am, you see, and like so many of you, bides her time before she contacts us at Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. She was at NYC New York City protests last Saturday. Apparently she says, we attend the Sixth Avenue Tartan Day Parade every year. One of my groupers is Scott and Burns Night is a new thing for me and now a very much a thing for me she says and we were delighted to discover that the hands-off march was happening on the same day we made signs and joined the thousands and thousands of protesters who piled into the fifth avenue throng it was loud it was orderly and we felt like a community

we feel a bit helpless here but it did feel good to be doing something. Pictures attached, I'm the one in the middle, in the tartan dress. Yeah, oh my goodness me, magnificent, absolutely magnificent. Look at that tartan dress there. It's quite wonderful, isn't it? Why are they marking the tartan day parade so far away from St Andrew's Day and indeed Burns night in the USA. I don't know. We're very glad that you did and how wonderful that you met up with other marchers and you're waving your Scottish flags there and it all looks fabulous. I imagine that there is, in fact we are beginning to hear about protests in America aren't we? Well there are huge protests in America.

There were many coordinated ones on Saturday. I think this was the Saturday she's talking about. She says, that's it for now. You feel like my friends, we're in bed together four nights a week when the lights are off. Well, hello, Sailor. So lots of fantastic postcards have come in and we really, really are enjoying receiving them all. There's one from Pam. And Pam, do you know what, when I saw the postcard I thought, oh that's from one of my children's godparents who has just, he's such a lovely guy.

But his writings, it's just extraordinary. So whenever a postcard, and he's very good, he sends postcards to my daughter quite a lot, whenever one comes through the letterbox we literally go, oh that's lovely, that's from Pete. We don't even bother to turn it over. It's no point reading it. I have no idea what Pete's told us but we do know where he is. Does he travel frequently? He does travel. He's often in the abroad. So Pam, you sent us a postcard from the Isle of Man and that's wonderful. Have you ever been to the Isle of Man?

Oh yes. Have you ever been to the Isle of Man? Oh yes. It's the location of my only ever attempt at smoking. Really? Were you sick? I just couldn't do it. Oh, okay. Were you on a school trip? You know, guides, camping. Guides, camping. Yeah, okay. So I tried. I know exactly who I was with.

I can still name them, but I won't. We were schlepping across the Isle of Man countryside one night, I don't know why. I think by then I was well into my early 20s, but still a girl guide for reasons that we don't need to go into. Now it's probably late teens. And I really was a late starter in absolutely everything, and also very late to give things up, like guides. Anyway, didn't get on with smoking, and probably no bad thing, but that's what I'll always associate with the Isle of Man, I'm afraid. Beautiful place, the weather that week, I have to say, was pretty challenging.

I think sometimes it is. Yeah, but my bell tent stayed up. Lovely. This one comes in, it's anonymous. I'm a regular listener, I love your pod, I've emailed you twice. One about a question on Brain of Britain about you, Jane, being the first voice on Radio Five, well done. And another about a carrot in a sex education lesson. But I don't think they made the airwaves. Do you know what, Anonymous, we were inundated with people's experiences of carrots in sex

education lessons. So I'm sorry if you didn't make it through. The postcard is from a beautifully formed town in southwest Scotland called Kirkubri, which isn't spelt Kirkubri and sometimes it does crop up on the news and it comes down as a whopping Kirkudbright. Is that what they say? Yeah, but it is Kirkubri. But it's spelt? K-I-R-K-C-U-D-B-R-I-G-H-T. Well it is a puzzler that one isn't it? So I always wonder why certain place names are spelt one way and pronounced another.

Who started that? Why did they do it? Well I suppose in the Scottish accent is it so far to get from Cwcwbwgw'kub'bright? I mean, you know, Dundee, if you say it is different if you live in Dundee. Dundee. Yeah. Anyway, the postcard is a parody of the name plus in our area it's renowned for, sorry, plus our area is renowned for its belted Galloway cattle which black with a broad white band around their middle they're beautiful the belted Galloway aren't they absolutely beautiful creatures. Thank you as well to Sarah who sent us a little something from Cumbria. Oh yeah but she she got a free postcard with bulbs. That's lovely.

That is not nice. Farmer Gracie bulbs when you buy those. And I suppose, I'm not a gardener, should you be putting your bulbs out now? Or should they have been in ages ago? Well, I think you can plant bulbs twice a year, can't you? But the ones that would be flowering now, you would have planted before, wouldn't you? I'm no Monty Donne love. Contact one of your fantastic Twinkly Eye gardens. Thank you though, beautiful card.

Melanie here sent you a postcard from Armenia. You wondered whether perhaps I had a secret spy life. I dream of such things. I am in fact a very boring lady lawyer. In that guise I attended a city dinner in the Times building last week, lots of lady bankers I know, and men bankers anyway. On leaving the duo I chatted to a man banker and he said I'd never visited the news building before. He said, nor me, but do you know Jane and Fee? I said, I listen to them. He said, so do I. I must take a pic of the foyer as a souvenir of where they live. You do truly reach the parts of the podcast cannot reach a souvenir of where they live. You do truly reach the parts other podcasts cannot reach. We've reached a man banker, Jane.

I'm pretty chuffed with that, to be honest. The image on the other side of the card is of the MI6 building. Is that right? Yes. Well, do you remember we were talking about it? We said next time someone send us a picture of the MI6 building. So Melanie's answered our call. Thank you Melanie and that is, it's if everybody knows it is the MI6 building and it's the,

is it the other side of the river to where we are? No, it's on the same side. Is it? It's on the same side. But further down the river nearer Westminster? Yes. Yeah, just in case anybody wants to pay a visit. I mean actually of course you can't. I suspect if you knocked on the door and said hello, do you do tours? They'd very firmly tell you that the answer was no.

Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people think that it's, it no longer exists because it has been blown up so many times in movies. I think it's a relatively new building because it has got blown up. I think during the war, they used to pretend that it didn't exist. But apparently, was it the MI5 or the MI6 building where the bus conductor would just shout anybody for MI5 and everybody would get off. So I didn't shout them when we've been to the festival there, the literature festival, they just have buses with GCHQ on don't they? So it's not like, some of the pretence has gone away so we have to accept that secret things are there. There must be some that are so secret that we don't even know they exist.

Oh, very much so. Yeah. Well, I'm afraid I can't tell you. Because obviously being part of the forces, I've signed a little deal. OK. Have you got one coming? I beg your pardon. As you know, no I haven't.

This is from Sicily. Right. A middle of the night... How old are we? Well, combined age is currently 168, I think. Yeah. Right. This correspondent...

Oh, it's the wonderful Barnes, says, this is a middle of the night email as the plumbing in this beautiful ex-convent in the town of Ragusa in south-east Sicily not only woke me up but it's so loud. It sounds as though every shower loo in the environs is being used that I just cannot sleep and so have had to resort to chuckling my way through Tuesday's podcast. I am currently sitting on the loo, obviously wearing my PJs whilst my husband increasingly deaf sleeps blissfully through. Well I just want to mention that it is amazing to stay in some of these gorgeous old places

isn't it? But almost all of these old buildings do have a very particular gurgle that can emit at any time of the day, or more importantly, night. Yeah, and the clanking of the chains if you've got a high level WC, you're just waiting for somebody aren't you, to get rid of that irrigation. It's the ancient pipework that I think really does begin to feel the effects overnight. You don't seem to notice it during the day but is it just because it's less? Well most people aren't in their hotel rooms during the day. What are you doing? Yeah waiting for the gurgle from the cistern. On the issue

of Swiss Army knives I was given one 35 years ago when I first went traveling by my lovely friend Caroline, I still have it. I use it regularly and apart from this trip, first time I've done carry-on only and I didn't want it confiscated, I hold it dear to my heart as my most useful and treasured gift. It's helped me out of a number of practical situations and I was so grateful to have it near to hand when three years ago in a taxi from Reggio da Calabria train station to the port I was convinced the train driver was taking my friend and I in the opposite direction with mal intent. Have you ever had one of those moments? Yes, I have. Horrible. Horrible. So late at night going on what seemed like really deserted routes to hotels and by

the way nothing's ever happened but I've definitely had slightly worrying yeah and you wonder at which point you should say stop I want to get out well quite yeah anyway I just need to blow my nose I do apologize for getting away from it oh dear everybody we're just going to have to wait a little bit it's good you've got a handkerchief though quite often I find I have to reach for an antiseptic table wipe. That's not good, is it? I was convinced the taxi driver was taking my friend and I in the opposite direction with malintent.

Having read and watched far too many Scandinoise books and films, I was planning how we'd counter any attack. The Swiss Army knife was there at the fore in addition to the cord from my earplugs. Oh my god, which I imagined I would use to strangle him. It's amazing where the mind takes you in these moments of stress. Well, again, we've been there, haven't we? I mean, I think we probably do have these thoughts. I even wished I'd had another friend with me rather than the one who was an ex-international

committee for the Red Cross employee and would definitely be up for negotiation rather than confrontation. Luckily all was well, he was just doing a shortcut to the port and the would-be attacker lived another day. Right, Barnes also reassuringly says absolutely no glimpse at all of riff raff in this part of the world. Well increasingly people are noting that when they send their emails to us, and as we're almost approaching another holiday season, that can be a substantial part of our email inbox.

But that's because we have classy, classy, classy clientele, Jane. Well, we do, but we welcome the classless, we need to say. So if they want to get involved, absolutely. Riff raff welcome. I think that would be I I'd get a t-shirt with that on it. Yeah definitely. It's all about figures. With regard to Jane's point about funerals and the deceased not being present at the funeral, I agree with Fee. One simply doesn't know. And following an experience I had last year when it was extremely clear to me that only my mum could have come through to me at a sitting, the first of its kind

for me, I am now more inclined to believe there is somewhere else than not. Okay? There you go. Yeah, well you've had the experience and I'm absolutely not going to judge you. No. So write down your list of likes and dislikes. Make sure... Because you are the type of person, Jane, you'll be absolutely bloomin' livid. Fuming. You really will be fuming.

And I pity the poor people who are sitting next to you in wherever it is that you're ending up in the afterlife. If they're going to have to watch you fume your way through your own funeral going, I didn't get it right. Not me. I'm not going to have to watch you fume your way through your own funeral going I didn't get it I didn't get it right not me I'm not gonna be there. Dearest Jane of Fee I'm thrilled to finally have something to write in about and Nick it is the Swiss Army pen knife for about 25 years I've had a Swiss Army knife attached to my quay see picture but it isn't any Swiss Army knife it's a ladies Swiss Army knife in pink with appropriate lady accoutrements.

When I received it as a gift in about 2000 it was marketed for ladies. A Google search brings up the result of this small pink version. No stereotypes to see here. I use the scissors at least weekly, not least to open packages, taped up boxes, no problem with the knife. The tweezers, handy for removing that odd wiry hair you feel on your chin in the middle of the working day. And a colleague once brought an electric fan for the office which required some assembly, fear not. The flat end of my Swiss Army nail file doubles as a screwdriver. Oh that is properly useful. And thank you Nick for your very helpful

tip that I could replace my lost Swiss Army tweezers on the eBay for £1.79. Gosh, I mean that's, you are helpful, Fi. No, next being helpful. Well, yes, OK, sorry. Yeah, so thank you very much. I'll look into it. I'm seriously pondering whether, I mean, I definitely would prefer one of the more delicate ladies. Would you like a lady knife?

Yeah, I think so. I don't know. I think you should, no, I think you should embrace your masculine side and go for all the ones. The big butch red one. I'm going to look into this actually. I wonder what the extras are you get if you're a man. The extra, manly extras? Yes. Well, it'll be things that you can help a little lady with, presumably. Moments of distress. What would those be?

Well, you know what it is. At times of crisis, women fall apart and need a man with a bigger load of bigger selection of tools to step into the void. Right, I'll be really annoyed if the man's one has a Phillips head screwdriver, but the lady's one doesn't. Just I am familiar with the Phillips head. That's the one that's the narrow point. With the cross. With the cross, yeah. Whereas it's not the other one. Otherwise you just got a flat one. Yeah right, yes show us pictures of your tool. No don't, no please don't. We started

all this absolute gibberish by the way because I had read one of my panicky articles in the Sunday Times about the government suggesting that every household should be prepared. You've got to just stop reading those things. You'll be absolutely fine. We work for the organisation. I thought it was sensible to read it. Honestly, you'll be absolutely fine. You've got so much stuff in your house. But I'm no clearer to know, or no closer to understanding why they recommend a Swiss army knife rather than a tin opener. Because you can just do more things. I mean it's simple isn't it? Also don't know why you need your identity documents either.

No well we're not returning to that. Alison says I was interested in your recent conversation about, by the way, we actually have got the dimblebee haven't we? We do. David Dimblebee follows this whatever it is. We have dialed a dimblebee and that call has been answered. We do. David Dimbleby follows this whatever it is. We have dialled a Dimbleby and that call has been answered. I was interested in your conversation about funerals and coming to terms with our own mortality. I am a parish priest and I often go on a funeral visit to bereaved families

only to discover that they really don't know what their loved one would like. And when you're in the throes of grief making these sorts of decisions is often much harder for people who sometimes worry about getting it wrong. When I meet families who know what their loved one's wanted it really does make a difference especially to the bereaved who find it a real comfort. Did you know there's been a growth in both bereavement cafes which are spaces for people to talk about their loss with others who've been through something similar. Many of them are in churches as a way of supporting people, often whose family funerals we have taken. As a society we seem to find it hard to talk about our own deaths and these spaces offer support for the bereaved, a cuppa, cake and conversation with others who are or have gone

through the same experience. These spaces can really help people to start to think about their own funeral plans. Alison thank you for that. She is a vicar in Glasgow, Glasgow and Galloway, so best of luck with your work there and thank you for that insight because I imagine as a parish priest it's those visits to organize the service if genuinely the bereaved just don't have a clue. Very difficult aren't they because you you want to build a service from scratch. Definitely and I think it's probably incredibly difficult if you actually just don't know the person and that

happens so often now and you know from the family's point of view you find yourself having this conversation with somebody who's never met the the person who you're grieving over, and that in itself is quite painful. And then you try and explain who they were, and that's quite painful too. It's very difficult. And, you know, of course, it's not their fault that they don't know who you're talking about, and you're asking for them to officiate such a huge thing in everybody's life. And quite often you haven't ever been to officiate such a huge thing in everybody's life and quite often you haven't ever been to their church before so that must be quite tricksy too. I really do wish that we had a more visible sign of mourning, so you know, cultures that still allow people to

wear a different type of dress, outfit, whatever it is, or the black armband to signify that you're in a period of grief. I think it's just so sensible. It just means that people don't say inappropriate things, people give you a bit more, you know, a bit more compassion than they normally would and you know that you're kind of being held safe in a period and then you will pass through it. I think that's a much, much better way of doing it. I wish it was still here. Yeah, that's interesting. On the other hand, you don't want... You're not at the BBC now. You don't even have to do on the other hand, but go for it.

No, I was just thinking, those societies that used to compel women, obviously there are really extreme examples where a woman was expected to go at the same time as hubby in some cultures. Or wear black forever more. Well that's what I was going to say, or wear black or dark maybe for the rest of their lives. Yeah, so I'm not advocating that at all, but I'm saying as a period of mourning I think it is really helpful.

Yeah, no, I get that. And in fact, Carrie Adloyde who's just done some amazing work throughout her career on grief, so she's got, I think she still does grief cast. Does she still do it? It was one of the first big podcasts to really cut through. And it was such a simple premise that you heard from someone who had lost somebody, you talked about the grieving process, talked about the person. It was absolutely wonderful. And she was a huge advocate of wearing a badge, you know you know that said I'm a person who no longer has a dad or a sister or a brother or a partner or

whatever it was and it just is such a sensible thing to do, such a sensible thing to do. Yeah you would like to think wouldn't you that people would just be I don't know just more gentle more, give you that space, whether literally or emotionally. Yeah. And just to have grief more visible in our world, because there'll be loads of people on any tube train, you know, at any football match, there'll be a whole lot and you'd think, yeah, I mean this is just what happens in life, but we suppress it, absolutely suppress it. Don't mention it. Don't mention it at all. You know, I saw on my local chew platform the other day a young woman with her guide dog.

And the woman, I think was probably in her 20s, she was very young. And the dog was absolutely beautiful, black lab, I think it would be, I think it was. But it was in training and it had one of those signs on it saying, please do not distract me, I am in training. And the look on the dog's face, I'm so in awe of guide dogs because I just don't understand how they're trained,

I think it's absolutely brilliant. And then I saw them again at King's Cross, which is a really, really busy station, and I couldn't, I find looking at the guide dog, I just find them irresistible. Again, the look on the face of the dog was absolutely right I'm gonna get this right. I mean how do they do that? They're wonderful creatures. They're absolutely brilliant. Yeah and also shout out to, I think we sometimes complain about public

transport, though not in my experience the Tube, the great people from TfL who help people who are partially sighted or blind across the concourse. They always seem to be there. Now, I mean, I'm sure there are circumstances in which they're not. Jane, there are massive circumstances. And actually, I think TFL could do an awful lot more for blind people. There are still so many tube stations. Oh, utterly inaccessible. Yeah, where, you know, we hear the mind the gap. but actually there is now no reason why there should be a gap.

You can build a station where you have protection across the platform, so you don't have to be telling people to mind the gap. There have been some terrible, terrible accidents. So yes, I'm not sure that... I'm sure those TfL staff were absolutely brilliant. Of course they were. Well, they seem good, but... I think as an organization it could stand a bit taller on that actually.

Well, let us know if you've had any experience with that. If you don't refer to our next guest as a veteran broadcaster you get a fine. He's David Dimbleby and the veteran broadcaster has now entered the world of podcasting. Dimbleby's new podcast is called Invisible Hands. It's about the economic lessons of history. It's so pertinent to the now as David takes us back to the start of how the world embraced free market capitalism, the type of which we're seeing sprayed all over us right now. It tells the story through people, not just policy. And we learn about the significance of a chicken farm in Sussex and the dangerous skies of the Second World War as a fighter pilot watches his brother parachute down. David Dimbleby joins us now, you're very welcome on the program, how are you this

afternoon? I'm very well, I don't know what veteran broadcaster means, just means I've been around a long time I suppose. It reminds me of veteran cars that always break down on the way to Brighton at the veteran car rally. But anyway, no, I'm fine. Well, that's good. That's good. And you're thriving there? Yes, we are thriving. That's very kind of you to ask. So yes, we have found ourselves in the autumn of our career having an absolutely marvellous time, David.

Tell us a little bit more. Let's start to go on with that. Late summer, perhaps. Yeah, we'll do a little bit more of that later. Tell us a bit more about the the podcast first of all I think what I absolutely loved about it was the way that you started with the story of somebody so we could join this journey which does get economically complex sometimes just holding in our thoughts the life of a man so tell us more about the fighter pilot. Well you have to be careful of course because there's the old thing about you know for the want of a nail the battle was lost. So when you say one

person was the instigator of all this you have to be a bit cautious and be careful that you're telling absolute truth. And this all came from his son, Anthony Fisher's son. Anthony Fisher had a brother and they were fighting over the channel in hurricane airplanes in the Battle of Britain. And his brother was shot down and the parachute opened but then caught fire and so he died. And five days later, Anthony was at the funeral. And I think that, according to the Sun again, that made it, that completely seared him because somehow the two of them together, the glamorous thing of being fighter pilots when they were young, you know, and fighting against Nazism.

And I think as he came to see it afterwards, a fight for the free world. That's what seemed to instigate him. Anyway, time goes on, the war comes to an end, he becomes a chicken farmer, and he does various sort of tries to make it more efficient, but all the time he's hampered by an organization called the Egg Marketing Board, government organization that ran food like milk marketing board. And then he, again according to the Sun, as Anthony said, picks up a copy of Reader's Digest and sees an article by the Austrian economist Friedrich Hayek called The Road to Freedom, and he thinks, ah, Road to Freedom, that's what I believe in.

I believe in that's why I fought over the channel in the Battle of Britain. And he goes to see Hayek and then from that founds the Institute for Economic Affairs, which was actually the driving force of the ideas that in the end ended up in Thatcher's portfolio. Once she had won the Falklands War and had a was in a position, you know, as a strong enough position to actually do things that at the beginning being a very cautious woman always there people don't think that she felt she couldn't do. So it's it's it is really interesting that ideas can float around. I mean, as you mentioned, Trump, you know, ideas about America's imbalance of trade with the rest of the world, if that's what you want to call it, dah, dah, dah, dah, can

go floating around, economists can argue about it. Bankers can argue about it, you know, central bankers can talk about the disharmonies and all that. And in the end, actually, one man turns the apple cart over, you know, suddenly, impulsively. So these individuals are very important. It doesn't mean that they're all for the good, you know, not beneficial. But it is just very interesting. And it went on. The one that really surprised me was John Redwood. Well, I always thought John Redwood, who was, you know, is a very dry stick. And I hadn't realized, actually, that he was a banker, and he believed in privatization. And he won the Conservative Party, really, over to the idea of privatization and the first one BT

where everybody was holding their breath and saying what's privatization what what's the point you know the telephone service is run by the government and okay you have to wait for your telephone but that's the way it is and when you actually on the other hand thought everybody's going to buy a share and then they'll all own the business and the whole of Britain will own everything individually people will own their houses of course but then they'll own shares and things and that'll change the face of it. That's how it all worked out. That's what the story is about. And you can understand the sentiment behind that and I actually remember the

advertising campaigns to buy a share and get involved. Did you buy one? No, I was far too young, David, far far far too young. But it's interesting where we find ourselves now and I wonder as you've been making the series, have you actually come to a conclusion about whether or not the running of economies would have been more viable if they hadn't taken the free market capitalist turn that they did way back when? Can you have that kind of different outcome in your mind? Well, it's horses for courses really. Some things I think are quite properly run by the state. And I think the last episode, which is about Thames Water, is a good example of the total disaster of giving a service industry over to individual shareholders who then sell, so that in the end Thames water is owned by Australians who you

know and and who pay each other huge bonuses and vast amount vast salaries and everything and water quality goes down and down until the rivers are full of sewage and people can't swim where they want to sit there are some things that I think that's a good example something that shouldn't have been privatized. On the other hand, British Airways, I don't know, I think it probably, I mean, people don't necessarily love British Airways but at least it had a kind of enterprise, you know, otherwise it would all have been left to Virgin and Richard Branson. So there are things that do need to be privatized, I think. But the

other thing is, of course, that the logic of privatization, which is, of course, about making a profit, because that's what capitalism is about, ends up with the globalization of the economy. And I think that's where it becomes really interesting because what we're living through now and what Trump has put his finger on in a ferocious way and wildly inaccurate way. But in our series, Jimmy Goldsmith does it. Jimmy Goldsmith made a fortune by buying and selling companies and then at the end of his life he suddenly appeared as a political leader, well a political leader, the only virtually only member of the referendum party to take Britain out of Europe. And the reason was, it's so interesting

the reason, the reason was globalization erodes your society, because it leaves half the country with nothing to do. And it's exactly the point Trump's making. If America is not making motor cars, and they're being made in Japan, what does it say for American society? Well, how do you say, you know, I'm proud to be an American,

by the way, I don't have a job, and I'm a sack, the Japanese have moved movie and all the Vietnamese are doing this and that. So that's another conundrum which we explore in this. What do you think of President Trump the man? I think of him. Yeah. I think he's lunatic. Right. What do you think will happen over the next four years? Ah well, I mean when I say a lunatic I mean I think you know he's so his his way of talking about things is so erratic and so difficult to grasp and so here today gone tomorrow this idea then that idea. But what I always keep in the back of my mind are two things.

One is a kind of innate belief that things will never be quite as bad as they seem they'll be during a crisis. And the other is that Trump got 51, or was it 52% of the vote. So that whatever he's saying about make America great again, if you put it into more sort of intellectual terms, and said, globalization erodes the domestic economy and put it into sort of that kind of economists language, makes a lot of sense.

And quite what happens and how far you go. I mean, once you've once you've discovered that it's better to make computer chips in Taiwan because they're more efficient and effective and better designed, it's quite difficult then to argue for doing it back at home instead. Yeah. But the so that but I think the Trump if you if you get underneath the the lather Which is obviously anyway, we know is designed To irritate. I mean he he wants to irritate though. They were this whole administration seems to be Just out to irritate which is It's quite a it's quite a good policy. Actually if you're trying to do something radical

I mean, well, it certainly keeps us watching him doesn't it? Which is definitely what he enjoys. The mother of that she used to try and irritate didn't she? She was always saying things. And David she definitely got under some people's skin. Can I ask you just about whether or not you as, if you were a young man now, would you choose journalism to go into? Because our profession has undoubtedly changed now. It won't ever go back to the shape it was before.

I'd certainly go into it. There'll always be, there'll always, it won't be the same shape, but there'll always be reporting to be done. Well, if there isn't, God help us all. No, of course I would go into it. Can we? It may not be, it may not,. No, of course I would go into it. It may not be exactly the same form.

We all know about social media and that and that and the other. But I was talking at the BBC about the BBC World Service. I was in Sudan just before the revolution but six weeks before rather unwisely and then when I came out and realized this terrible slaughter in Sudan not being reported and then it is reported because a BBC reporter goes in and It and the whole world then knows what's happening that kind of reporting and that kind of journalism. I think is Not going to go away because there really will be a demand for it. We will need it more than ever. I think so, don't you?

I completely agree. Why are you talking about that? I completely agree. Well, because we're interested, because you are a silverback gorilla of public service broadcasting. Where do you think the BBC will be in 20 years' time? There are many other people like Mute. I just started broadcasting earlier than most because I was only 11 when my father made me do my first broadcast. Or was I 12?

I think I was 11. That is young. Oh, I know. I was in my 12th year. That's right. It was a television thing. The GLC said, your child couldn't go on television until they were 12.

My father said, well, he's in his 12th year meaning I was 11, right I'm sorry. What we went what we say I was asking about the license fee actually and where the BBC is going to end up. Well who again who knows? I mean, I've always I've always argued and written about and thought and said that it's that the license fee is very unfair. And I see the new chairman, Samir Shah, thinks actually along the lines I do, which is that you want to make richer households pay more and do it through the rates so that there's a sort of fairness.

It's still going to be very unfair because loads of people no longer watch it at all. But I also think that the BBC should stick to its last. It should remember that what really matters about the BBC, what really, really matters is its news and its current affairs and its political stuff because nobody else does it on the scale the BBC does. It has reporters in Washington, it has reporters in Washington, it has reporters in Beijing, has people in Sudan, you know, they're everywhere. And I think that's, I'm always a bit shocked really, when I was very, very shocked when the government made the decision

the Foreign Office wouldn't pay for the BBC, the BBC had to, for the BBC, for the World Service. And that they, that somehow, you know, the BBC could to for the BBC for the World Service yeah and that they somehow you know the BBC could do that but they must have known it would only be done that the price of cutting out you know local radio or local television or other things that are just as important yes local local I daily miss daily missed in their communities there's no way around it used to run, I used to own local newspapers and we

were wiped out with nothing you could do. Free papers came along and took the advertising and that was it really and then the free papers gave way to social media and you could, you know, reporters have wives and children or husbands and children or partners and children or whatever and They can't compete they have to be paid. They don't just you know, and that's a true David places we've only got you for a minute more and I just wanted to know I just wanted to ask your opinion About one of the stories of the day, which is another BBC story It's about the reinstatement of the statue, the Eric Gill statue at Broadcasting House. You know, the artist is a known pedophile.

He admitted to it himself. Many people find that an incredibly distasteful statue to have on a public building. Is the BBC just a bit mad to have put it back up? No, absolutely right to have done it. And I'm very much against this, because Gauguin liked young girls, we shouldn't look at his paintings, or because Michelangelo liked young men, we shouldn't look at his paintings. It's a ridiculous argument.

I think Eric Gill, I mean you could, I suppose suppose argue that statues of a daughter that he'd had sex with shouldn't be perhaps drooled over. Perhaps. But I mean that, what is it, Ariel, who's the... Prospero. I don't know who they are now. Ariel and Prospero. That's right. They're not sort of sexualised objects, are they?

They're just very good sculpture. No, but I think isn't it rewarding somebody who's done something, isn't it rewarding someone who's done something absolutely dreadful? He's dead! He's been bloody dead for ages, not rewarding him. But it's saying that somebody like that should still have a place in our public life. No, that his work should. You don't ban people because of their work, life? No, that his work should. You don't ban people because of their work, because of their character, because of their work. And you have to remove all books from libraries that are printed in Gil Sand's type. Would that be the obvious one? Why should, is there a Gil family left? I don't know, we shouldn't speculate on that. But, you know, I know, I think it's completely bonkers that thing about

loads of people, artists, writers, poets, novelists, have parts of their lives that would be shaming if they were known about. If you go around vetoing anybody who's had that sort of those sort of experiences, you end up end up you know it's lunatic you end up throwing everything away. Oh no some would survive. Why have they put a glass thing in front? Because protesters had defaced it before because they did find it deeply upsetting. Oh god yes typical yeah I have no sympathy with that at all. David, thank you for your time this afternoon. David Dimbleby's podcast is called Invisible Hands. Right, I am off for a week and Jane's off for the week after that.

So we're reunited in two weeks' time but Jane Wall-Kerrins will be absolutely fabulous and I'll be listening. Yeah, well, she'll be hopefully, I'm going to try to keep her on the straight and narrow for my week with her, but I think she might have run out of decency puff by the time you come back. All hell will be breaking loose. I'll look forward to it. Yes. Right, Jane O'Fey at Times.Radio, we'll see you next week, or part of us will, and then, never mind, it's too complicated. Bye bye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DABB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.