Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I do like the opportunity to complain (with Jennie Godfrey)

Episode Date: January 8, 2025

In this wide-ranging episode, Jane and Fi cover silent divorce, fun guys, Iain Dale's television, zips, climate change, property shows and imaginary friends (*gasp*). Plus, make sure to look out for the pun that flies over Jane's head! Author Jennie Godfrey also joins to discuss her Sunday Times Bestseller ‘The List of Suspicious Things’. Get your suggestions in for the next book club pick! If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I blame Kaikilius for a lot of things. I blame Plato. Plato. Yes. Yes. What a guy. What a fun guy he was. You want work to be less hard work.

You hear an ad for MHR, so you reach out. We connect your department systems, which leads to real-time data sharing that uncovers new insights, which empower your decision makers and triple monthly sales which leads to high fives and awkward hugs. You say a big thank you, we say you're welcome. MHR, the science behind HR, payroll and finance, the science behind a new world of work. Discover more at MHRglobal.com. Welcome. Wednesday already. And yeah, it's the year's feeling feeling quite old even though it's brand new. Who's that right at the end? We've got this moving montage of all of our colleagues. This is radio so sometimes you just don't know what people look like. Is that James Hansen at the end?

No, that's um, that's young Daryl. Daryl Morris. Well I've never met them in person. I'd be able to recognise them by the voices. No, you have. I haven't, Richard. Oh, OK. Because Daryl Morris... Don't lay your shit on me, love. No, he made that really intriguing documentary, for another side, about somebody who was making a good living, claiming to be the son of God. Do you remember that?

Oh, I do remember that. And he had followers and everything. And I think he was in Manchesterford in that area. Yes. Anyway, yeah, he's very good good Daryl, he's a very very good journal. Yeah well I like James Hansen too, I was listening to him over Christmas and he was doing an interview about American politics, no shit Sherlock, but the stuff that he knew particularly about the quite complicated change in visa applications, I was just really impressed.

Are you thinking of getting a visa? Well, it's... America needs you, Fee. Get over there and help them out. It's always worth having a backup plan in life, I find. Sometimes it makes the the current plan so much more entertaining. Can we... Eve's laughed loudly over there. She's obviously going with you. What am I going to do? Let's start with an apology because, well, this is something I don't think I've ever been entirely certain that I understood the definition of the word. Oh gosh, yes, I'm sorry, no, I got this wrong. Well, I thought we both did. I really apologise. No, because you asked what it was and I thought I knew, but I got it completely wrong, Jo. Well, Amanda and A have both emailed to say,

can you correct this please, Amanda is incredibly polite to my dear, brilliant and hilarious lifelines. I tell you what, you'll get away with whatever you like Amanda with a greeting like that. Amanda describes herself as currently languishing in the South West French countryside. Oh, can we come over?

God, not a bad place to languish. I hate to make my very first contact with you sternly correctional, she goes on, but a spendthrift is actually somebody who spends money in a very extravagant and irresponsible way. But to be fair to you, it doesn't sound like it, does it? No, it sounds completely the opposite. So I apologise. So I've definitely used that term before and I've given completely the wrong impression of somebody. It couldn't be more wrong, actually.

And A just says a spendthrift is someone who spends extravagantly rather than someone tight as suggested by Jane and Fee. Right. best wishes for 2025 says A, who isn't languishing as far as we know, anywhere very exotic. In fact, judging by the email address, you find yourself in a very good university city in the north west of England. But not that one, the other one. Well I hope that you're not flooded because still quite a lot of that part of the country is very much afflicted by bad weather. We've gone back into the real kind of grey Mageddon days down here in the south. We had a couple of blue sky days didn't we? Which really do make your heart just soar and now the grey skies are back. I think this weekend is sunny too. Oh I hope so. But very cold.

I mean I know there's an element of cold in winter shock. We've just got to get over it. But somehow this does seem, maybe because we had a very mild descent towards Christmas, really, it wasn't particularly cold in October, November, or the early part of December that this has taken a small bit by surprise. Oh, that's freezing! If you could choose to live in a different climate, what climate would it be? Oh, do you know, I... This, I like this because I do like the opportunity to complain, the variety and the sense that there might be something.

So, for example, I'm back with the bargain daffodils already, cheering me up and letting me entertain thoughts of spring. So I like this, I'm afraid. Where would you live? Well I wouldn't be able to do those climates where it is permanently hot. That would really upset me. And like you, I enjoy the turning of seasons enormously.

It really keeps me going. And, you know, it's one of the saddest things, isn't it, of climate change, is that you don't have such clarity in the seasons in this country anymore at all. Because I really remember that you could count on spring and autumn when you were at school, couldn't you? There was a change in uniform and there was always that kind of dicky dodgy couple of weeks at the beginning of September where you were, should I be in a summer dress? Or should I be tweedy as autumn turned?

And now it is so bumpy over the summer and similarly in January and February you don't have that kind of smooth turn anymore. I know it's not the most imperative part of climate change but I think it is quite a profound change in our lifetime. Yeah it's definitely something that I can, I mean I absolutely acknowledge what you've said, it has changed in my lifetime there is no doubt about it. The weather, the climate in this country where I spent my entire life is now not the same as it used to be. We're getting wetter, we're getting warmer. With these strange bumps. And very odd little incidents. So you'll get a heat dome or you'll get a terrible, you know, beast from the east

or whatever it is. So all of that. Can we turn our attention to endometrial ablation, Jane? Yes, do this. I think this is important. It's one of these really important, painfully, well, I'm afraid rather common events or ailments, conditions. But I think it's really worth talking about this a little bit more. So we will put ourself in the hands of Gemma Johnson, who's going to explain something to us. I've listened to you for a very long time but only now felt compelled to email. To anybody who is a first-time emailer and long-time listener, make 2025 the year that you do something. You spoke in early December about women's health, heavy, painful periods and a procedure called ablation that can help women who suffer with debilitating periods. I suffered for many years with really heavy periods that affected every aspect of life. When I'd arrange to meet people, book holidays, work appointments,

my sleep was affected, even going to the supermarket was all dictated by my menstrual cycle. I did visit the GP over the years and tried meditation, too many side effects, and the coil which gave me low mood and although my periods were lighter they were all over the place and hard to track. The GP actually suggested I have an endometrial ablation and I was told the waiting list was probably 12 to 18 months. I spoke to other women who had had the procedure including my own mum who had suffered like I had and had an ablation in the 1990s. So it is a thing available on the NHS. But in the end I went private because we have insurance and I can honestly say it's been

life changing. I'm 48 and perimenopausal but still have regular periods. They're now really light, pain free and don't last long. I've also recently started HRT and that along with the ablation I feel that these interventions have improved my day to day life immensely. To any women suffering out there, please don't. It is so important for women to be able to talk about their health issues and bodily functions without embarrassment. To think a simple procedure with no overnight hospital stay can make such a change, it

really is miraculous. Thank you and best wishes. Well thank you to you Gemma because obviously that's exactly how Jane and I feel about issues of female health, that we should be able to talk about them really openly. I really think that Ablation, the only stories I've heard about Ablation have been from friends of mine who have benefited from it enormously. And I do remember asking my GP if it was something that I'd be able to consider and he just didn't even really know about it and I know that it is more common in America, I don't really understand why that is,

I don't know whether it's just more common in other parts of the country. I think because it seems to be such a helpful procedure could we just talk about it a little bit more and ask our lovely audience if they've got experience of it too. And does it get better very quickly if you have it? Well as far as I know and really forgive me if you're a medical practitioner and I'm about to say something that makes you shriek, just send us an email and we'll correct it tomorrow, but as far as I know just from friends who've had it, it is a procedure where a balloon is inserted into you, the hot water goes in, it cauterizes areas of your internal organs which just prevents that very very heavy bleed. So I don't think it's

complicated by hormonal creams or the addition of very much, as far as I know it's not requiring an overnight stay or general anaesthetic. I mean it seems to be just quite a simple thing to have done with very few side effects. But Gemma went private? Yes. Yeah and of course I know that the waiting lists particularly in women's gynaecology and it's it's they're quite long at the moment on the NHS. Well they're long and when you're going through the menopause that you don't have a never-ending amount of time to sort these things out. No, no you don't. So have you come across it though? I'm sure I must, you must have covered it. I must have covered it on the hour, the hour of power, we must have done. You know the older I get

the more I realize that my gynecological journey was a relatively uncomplicated one in many ways that my gynaecological journey was a relatively uncomplicated one in many ways. And I just feel very fortunate. But I think one of the symptoms I know you must not ignore is post-menopausal bleeding. I know that's not what that email is about. And it's one of those things that can be perversely, because those of us who obviously, you know, have periods for decades, you just got used to bleeding. I mean, you didn't really, you didn't get fearful about it but to go for a couple of years and then to suddenly have a bleed is actually very alarming. Yes and you should seek immediate help.

It's happened to a few friends of mine and you must, must seek help at that point. It almost certainly isn't serious but for God's sake talk to somebody about it if it happens. So definitely obey staff nurse Garvey. Yes, I'm very strict on this. But any stories about ablation and if you are a GP or you're working in gynaecological health and you can better inform us about it and maybe just explain why it doesn't seem to be on the table as a helpful solution for enough women, that would be great to hear as well. Yeah I mean I know a lot of you don't believe that this podcast is in any way produced or organized but it's just worth saying that our guest today is an author called Jenny Godfrey who actually, her experience of the perimenopause

propelled her from the corporate world into the thing she really wanted to do which was to become an author. So you'll hear her talk in the interview about what the perimenopause did to her and why it just made her grimly determined, I don't think that's an exaggeration, to fulfill her dream of just writing novels. I say just, but of writing novels. So that's what she did. So it's always like the whole thing, far from being the Wild West of chat, is actually very carefully produced, Fee. Well, it's not. It's not. Can't whisper? No, I can't whisper. I'm sorry, I did whisper. Growing mushrooms. This is from Judy. I was listening to your conversation about Christmas

presents and a listener mentioned that they'd had a mushroom growing kit. I also got one. It reminded me of a moment many years ago, the mid 80s in fact, when I bought my then boyfriend a mushroom growing kit. It just seemed like a good idea at the time. Well he decided to leave it in the flat I was sharing with some girlfriends as we had an airing cupboard and he felt the kit needed some warmth. He was living in an unheated student rental at the time. Well, each time he came calling he would check on his growing kit for signs of the mushrooms, but nothing happened at all. So in the end I decided we should buy some lovely button

mushrooms from the local shop and just put them in the said growing box before his next visit. His joy and excitement that he'd grown a lovely crop of mushrooms was at a level rarely witnessed. Gladly though, he had the good grace to see the funny side when he worked out why we were all crying with laughter. We still smile about it today and he was a fun guy. I married him, said Judy. Have you deliberately done that as a pun? Have they deliberately done that as a pun? Crying with laughter. No, no, fun guy. Well done Judy. I did get it now. Judy, I hope you have married him and that bit is true. But the rest of the story, I like that.

Just going to the shop and buying the mushrooms. I fear I might have to do the same, but look, we don't know yet. Eve has completely lost it. Fungi. The old ones are always the oldest. Right, gather Eve darling, gather. Come on, silent divorce. You're at a place of work. This comes in anonymously. I was interested to hear you talking about people living together.

This is very serious. It is. I was interested to hear you talking about people living together after divorce and I recently discovered my own situation. Sorry, I'm just going to... Wait. I'm thinking about a very, very, very serious thing. Oh, God. I'm all kitchen. Just think about the state of the world. It's shit. Oh, God. Well, yeah, it is, isn't it? Which is actually somewhat different. Actually has a name. Silent divorce is when there is no longer any physical or emotional relationship between a couple, but they do not legally separate and continue to live together.

Now, I'd never heard of that term. I hadn't. OK. I know that this in itself is nothing new, but I was interested to hear that there's now an actual term for it. It's also known as quiet divorce or invisible divorce. In my own case, the reasons for not leaving are complex. I've been living outside the UK for many years, married for 10, and my husband got a job in the US a year ago.

Since I'm here as a dependent on his visa, it means that if we divorce I will no longer be allowed to stay here. The children are still quite young and I'm not sure I want to subject them to the major upheaval this will entail, plus we'd both struggle financially to go it alone. As often happens in this situation, communication is now only about practical things related to the kids. We sleep in separate rooms and I wonder if our children will grow up thinking this is normal. We don't argue though and are respectful to each other in front of them. Well that has to be said that I live in a state of permanent irritation. I'm perimenopausal, say no more. If my circumstances were different I would leave tomorrow but

I feel trapped. I try to take care of my physical and mental health. I exercise every day, I eat well and get enough sleep but I don't really know anyone here so don't get out much. I would be interested to hear if any of your listeners are or have been in a similar situation and how they coped. Gosh, yeah. I really do feel sorry for that person if they are in the States without, it sounds as though they don't have access to a female friendship support group or indeed any kind of friendship support group that would help them at this challenging time. So it's not easy at all and I mean

people will have, I'm sure, you sure, suggested things to you along the way, which will just seem a bit banal if we go through the same things, but please join a group or find some shared interests with people, share your experience, because I think being at home with very young kids and having a marriage that might appear to people on the outside to mean that you are being supported, but actually in your reality you are not being supported. That's tough. So I hope that you can reach out to people there and you never know, find somebody who's in a similar situation.

I wonder whether you could meet more people through the kids. Sometimes they're actually quite good for that, aren't they? At the school gates, in groups and things like that. I'm still having a great social life with those very people many years on. Well it's true, some of my, definitely my lifelong friends have been, we have bonded over the shared experience of child rearing. And I think once you get to know people you discover that nobody's life is as picture-perfect as I have appeared. No, but I think that's so, so hard because you know if you are living together then the outside world probably thinks they're absolutely fine so you know I won't go and knock on the door.

I won't share my feelings of loneliness because obviously that's a woman who's in a happy marriage and everything's fine. So if that's your reality, it's really difficult to send out the smoke signals. Yeah, it is. I don't know whether this email is going to help, but it's certainly another very real slice of life. Anonymous says, We've been married for 51 years and I got a degree, decree nysi on the grounds of unreasonable behavior in 2017. My husband had decided he was gay and a whole strata of my

life's pyramid was removed. The layer that gave me love and respect and emotional security and a roof over my head and the ability to understand where I fitted into the world and I grieved enormously for my loss. My daughter said they'd thrown away the rule book for my situation but I suspect there are other women, perhaps countless other women, who go through exactly this every year as men get to a certain age and look for ways to boost their egos after retirement. The journey has been and continues to be challenging. Our daughters were extremely supportive to both of us, especially to me, and every

single friend has helped me in their own inimitable way. Listen to this, this is the extraordinary bit. We now live together for half the week and apart for the other half. It works well. We're happier than before because there are so few expectations. We sold the family home to buy me a house and him a small flat and I appreciate that not everyone can do that. He'd be the first person I'd turn to in an emergency and the same applies to him. We are invited as a couple as before, which is odd in some ways. Everyone knows the situation, some people think I'm crazy, allowing him back into my life. Only I can know how much I want him to be there to make me laugh, to come with me to pick up the

grandchildren from school, to go to a concert, to watch telly with together, I feel I'm lucky to have him. He is no longer seeking male company so I don't have to feel sad about that. It's a compromise and I'd rather not have gone through the trauma, but for me to be able to live in my wholly independent world now, it has been worth it. I haven't sought a decree absolute yet, I'm 73 so I won't be tripping down the aisle in this lifetime. You never know. You don't know. That's from Anonymous. It's very long, I could write a book and I may very well do that. Well go for it because we could, honestly, sometimes I think we should just compile a book about some of the life experiences people are prepared to

share with us. And I would not judge that woman who has reached a compromise that suits her. Nobody should. No, and I say good luck to you both. Should judge you for that. You've seen where you can find your happiness and you've embraced it. And I think if everybody knows your circumstances circumstances then good on you. No one's got a right to you know cast any aspersions on them and obviously you've done the right thing by the kids. I mean I presume you know that the children are

grown up if you've got grandchildren and are understanding and still love both of you. What a fantastic story. Yeah because there's no straight, I'm not trying to be punny here when I talk about straight, but there's no straight narrative, is there? I mean, just because you have the decree, what's the first one called? The decree nysi, is it nysi or nysi? I don't think so, let's not go down the road of... We can't pronounce it in Latin, it doesn't say anything. Nobody knows how Latin was spoken. Oh, you're absolutely right. I blame Chicilius for a lot of things.

I blame Plato. Plato. Yes. What a fun guy he was. No, or was he? We don't know. But I was just about to say. He had very many women in his republic, that was the problem. Oh yes, there weren't any.

No, not really. Had women not been invented though, but it's possible. I don't think they were incredibly welcome. No. Anyway, but I think all of the frontiers are shifting and we have to embrace those kind of stories because for the people who still carry prejudice that marriage that doesn't last a lifetime is a failed marriage. I really personally hate that term. But if you live outside of wedlock somehow, your union isn't as strong.

If you find a different sexuality later in life, or you find that you have always had a sexuality that society perhaps didn't allow you to indulge in, all of those things are changing. And we're only going to challenge prejudice by people telling us a story like that where everybody has, and I hope it is everybody, is living a good life where they haven't hurt people, they haven't harmed people, they're getting on with it. Yes, and they're enjoying a box set.

Every night again. Are you enjoying anything to make a leap into the world of television? With my new big telling. With your new very very very big telling. Not as big as Ian Dale's. By the sounds of it, nobody's is. Or indeed as big as yours. No it's not. But it is bigger than my previous one which was tiny I now realise. What are you watching on it? So far only traitors. Okay. Which are you enjoying it? Well I'm new to traitors I didn't watch it before and so I'm excited for an episode tonight but it's not until 9 o'clock Fee.

I know, will you be buying a cape? I don't know, cape I'm afraid. I know there's an article in the Times Today urging us all to go and investigate the world of capes. I won't be. So Claudia Winkerman, she looks good in anything. She's fine. She looks fantastic in a cape.

If I came to... If you and I put on capes we would look like toddlers in a playground. Well, you know, talking of which, I came to work today in an anorak that belongs to one of my offsprings. I thought, oh, I'm just going to wear that because it's been hanging around. I even washed it last week and it hasn't been picked up. So I thought, oh, it's just the job for today. I'll wear it. Unfortunately, I got to work one of my younger colleagues Eve pointed out that it was inside out. Oh. And I feel a fool. And I cannot share that information with my children. You couldn't do the zip up. No I couldn't. I did notice I couldn't do the zip up.

I thought that's a bit strange because but maybe it's the grave. So I would very much appreciate any television recommendations from people because we watched all the television over Christmas it was incredibly disappointing and I just I know that somewhere out there in the world of streaming there's some hidden gems we've only just come to Alma's Not Normal. Did you ever watch that? I haven't seen that but I know a lot of people like that. That's very, very, very funny but we cannot watch it as a family. It's got so much crudity in it which is just embarrassing.

Crudity? Say that again. Is that the right term? Served as a snack of course abroad. The French are all for it. They can turn anything into a meal. I don't think there is such a word, I'm sorry. No, there is. Crudity. Okay. So it's just too, it's just, you know that kind of just slightly, it's it's too visceral to watch with your mum and for me to watch with my young adults.

I know that interestingly neither you nor I could really watch that highly recommended drama series on Channel 4 set in New Zealand starring one of my favorite actors Peter Mullen. After the party. Yeah I just didn't like it. Me neither. You didn't like it either did you? And we had emails about it from people saying well you must watch this, it's absolutely

incredible. I'm really sorry I I just thought, ugh. No. And I couldn't go there. No, I really can't watch that storyline dramatized because it was obviously about sexual assault and possibly it seemed about an older guy being predatory towards a younger boy. Yeah, I just don't want to see it fictionalized. No, I just didn't like it. I don't want to give my Christmas time to this, if that makes

any sense. The one thing that I do think has to change on terrestrial TV this year is the way that the BBC Channel 4 and I don't know whether ITV, yeah, they must have some property programs, the way they do property. Because the way that property is being filmed on Tintinette, on the YouTube channels, on the Instagram, by these amazing young estate agents who are giving it some and they've got their fisheye lenses and they zoom. They're quite funny, aren't they? They're zooming around all these really snazzy... Ten and a half million pounds. around all these really snazzy, amazing houses. But they make even the more kind of mundane lower end houses just look so flashy and all that kind of stuff. And then you come across

Celebrity Escape to the Country. It's just… So they're filming these houses where no one's even tidied up, you know, they'll just sweep across the kitchen, it's a part of washing up. Really? Yes. Oh, it's just so, it's like a piss take now of what a property programme used to be and it's just moved on and it's quite an enjoyable thing to watch, I think, a bit of Property Born, where you can just lose yourself. It's about being nosy, isn't it, seeing somebody else's house and, oh, how much that costs!

And all of that malarkey and some nice colour schemes. That's what I'd like to see more of. I'm telling you. Fancy not washing up. What a disgusting state of affairs. Well, I think if Phil and Kirsty came round, you know, I would fold a towel for Phil Spencer. Oh, yes.

Yes, he's a lot of ladies and some men no doubt. Not so secret fancy. He used to win Heat Magazine's unlikely hunk or something award every year. Phil Spencer. Did you not vote in that? That's really possible. I gave up Heat Magazine. but it took a while. Claire is talking about imaginary friends. I too had an imaginary friend called Wayne. That's nice. He moved with our family as I relocated from the Lake District to Cheshire when I was three. So convinced was my mother in Wayne's presence from the, as from the backseat as we were

driving around, I would point out where Wayne's granny lived and she would have to look out the window to see which spot in suburbia my imaginary friend's grandmother inhabited. This would continue for all of Wayne's relatives. Wayne was just another part of our family life. He sounds a bit of a character. There was no clear departure for Wayne, he just disappeared into the ether, back where he came from. Until, my surprise and delight, Wayne knocked on the door when I was 17, and it turned out he was my driving instructor, and he saw me through my lessons and passing my test. There we are, I think that was just a Wayne. So our correspondent Claire hasn't ever met any other Waynes since her driving instructor.

Perhaps though, the original Wayne was just a watchful figure to guide me through another one of life's transitions. But it's moved on a few. There's been a plot development because Claire now has a 20-month-old daughter. And guess what? What? Claire's got a bobby. Wow.

Yeah. No, her daughter has a bobby. Now there is no bob Bobby in our family. There is no Bobby at nursery. But our daughter has got a lot to say about Bobby. That is quite spooky. Yeah, more words. So there's a tiny little gene that she's inherited.

Yeah. So that's Claire's baby Ada, who is 20 months old. So that's, she's moved on from being a baby. She's very much a toddler. But Bobby is a part of her life. Every bit as much as Wayne was a part of Claire's life. That is interesting. It is, yeah.

I wonder whether having an imaginary friend is more of a girl thing in childhood than a boy thing. I don't know. We've asked for a lot of help from experts. We're asking for people who know about ablation to contact us. Are you some sort of child psychologist who'd be able to answer that question? Yeah. Is it that girls are more sociable or more likely to be socialised earlier? Is that a cliché? Is that just wrong?

There is a belief isn't there, that girls play more in their imaginations when they're young than boys do. I don't know whether that's a truth or just a social bias. Oh I don't know about that. What's the matter? Let's get to the guest soon. Do you know what's telling about that particular page in Eve's Notebook is the amount of doodles on it. It's as if she's bald. They're not yours? No. Okay.

You want work to be less hard work. You hear an ad for MHR, so you reach out. We connect your department's systems, which leads to real-time data sharing that uncovers new insights, which empower your decision-makers and triple monthly sales, which leads to high fives and awkward hugs.

You say a big thank you. We say you're welcome. MHR, the science behind HR, payroll and finance. The science behind a new world of work. Discover more at MHRglobal.com. Right, shall we get to the guest? I'm not really speaking to Eva, she pointed out that my anorak was inside her. I just want to mention we were discussing in our special what dropped on Christmas Day about round robins and I do occasionally pick up my Simon Hoggart book about round robins

because they did make me laugh. This is from Sophie who says, my lovely modest dad always wrote our family Christmas Round Robbins much to our embarrassment as he does so without checking the content and delivery with my brothers and me. Anyway last year was a highlight in self-deprecation as he started with the line, it's been a bad year for us the dog died and the cat's got dementia. as he started with the line, it's been a bad year for us, the dog died and the cat's got dementia. She does go on happier news from Sophie. She does say, I'm 37 weeks pregnant with my first baby

and was wondering, congratulations, and you may well have had the baby by now, and if so, even more congratulations. I hope things are going well. But Sophie was wondering if the tote bags are back on the horizon well. Oh, can we just in the interest of total transparency, I'm really sorry about this, but Sophie, I think you might be in luck because I found one in the bottom of a drawer.

So you're going to bring in your spare one. I've got no spares left. Mine have all gone. So Sophie, stand by. I mean, you'll have much more to think about over the coming weeks than whether or not you get your tote bag, but it's looking possible. Okay. And then that is the end of tote bags bags but we are going to consider jigsaw puzzles as our next merchandising opportunity. Eve's absolutely thrilled about that. Here's the guest. The guest is Jenny Godfrey, the writer and I like stories of particularly midlife change of plan, change of direction and then triumph and this is one. Jenny had a

successful corporate career but she just had one of those literary itches she needed to scratch and it was interesting that the perimenopause had a real impact on her. She got the most god-awful anxiety and she really began to doubt herself, she took herbal remedies, she ran a marathon but in the end the solution that worked for her was HRT and and then she gave up a career, got a job in a bookshop and started to write. And her first novel, The List of Suspicious Things, was snapped up by a publisher and it's out in paperback now. It's the story of Miv, a 12-year-old girl growing up in Yorkshire in the shadow of the murders committed by the serial killer Peter Sutcliffe.

I asked her whether she'd been aware of the killer at the time. Well you'd think I wasn't of an age to be aware but actually although I was five years old when he started and ten years old when he finished, actually most children in Yorkshire were fully aware of his presence in our lives. It's part of why I actually wrote the book. Tell me then exactly where you grew up and what it was like. So I grew up in a little town called Batley in West Yorkshire called Batley in West Yorkshire and it's one of the kind of West Yorkshire old mill towns, very industrial and it's the sort of small town where nothing happens or nothing did happen and you know you left your back door open at night and

almost from another sort of generation, I think. And when the killing started, it was a real shock to the system for, I think, everybody. And as children, I mean, in the 70s, we didn't have helicopter parents. So you watched whatever television was on and I actually remember distinctly watching the television and hearing about one of the murders and the newsreader saying that the person who had been killed was a

prostitute and I didn't know what that word meant, so I asked what it meant. And my dad said, it's someone who helps the police. And that found its way into the book because I really distinctly remember that moment and of wondering what on earth was going on. It was the end of innocence, I think, for a generation of young Northern children. Yeah, I think it's so interesting and I think there'll be many people listening who totally get what you're saying. Now, I am, well, I'm 60 now and I grew up in the North West on Merseyside and we weren't that far away. And I know exactly about that, the newspapers, which we used to get the newspaper in the house, the Daily Liverpool, Daily Post, the Echo, and usually another newspaper as well.

And the images of these women were omnipresent, day in, day out. But like you, I don't know whether I was as aware as I should have been about the judgement being made on the women because there was without question a dividing line between the so-called innocent victims of Sutcliffe and the other women. Oh there absolutely was and there was a brilliant documentary made about it called The Yorkshire Ripper Files, which was a BAFTA award winning documentary in 2019, I think, which really illuminated that for me, that distinction between the innocent and the not innocent victims in the eyes of the media

and the press. I found it astonishing. And when I then looked back, when I was researching the novel, you absolutely could see that reflected in every single headline, the judgement around the types of women he killed. I really again wanted to reflect that in the novel. Also I could completely relate to the collective experience of the entire household watching the 9 o'clock news. Now in part that was because there was nothing else to do. There was only usually one form of television entertainment because we were loath to darken our souls with what was always referred to as the other side and BBC2 was a bit too arty. But there was Angela Rippon reading the 9 o'clock news and the whole household would be there. And when difficult things

arose, well, your dad would disappear behind the newspaper. That was how it worked, wasn't it? Oh, absolutely. That's how it was. And even my dad's response about prostitutes being the people who help the police. I carried that with me for far too many years and it was a bit of a rude awakening when I discovered what that really meant. But yes, all television was appointment viewing at that point. Yeah, but only because we didn't have any other opportunities to make other appointments. But in a way, I've got to say, I miss it because it was that shared experience of tragedy and heartbreak and sometimes of happy events as well. But anyway, Jenny, you don't live in Yorkshire

anymore. And you are a full-time writer or someone who works alongside writing? And you are a full-time writer or someone who works alongside writing? Well, I am a full-time writer now, yes. The success of the novel has meant that I am able to do that, which is an enormous privilege. But I also, this Christmas, am working as a bookseller in my local Waterstones down here in Somerset, which is where I live now. I started Christmas bookselling while I was writing the book because I wanted to understand how bookshops work and I found I really loved it. So at Christmas I go back. Okay, what do you learn about the human race from working in a bookshop? So all of life is in a bookshop from all ages to all kinds of interests. I'm always amazed and quite frankly as a writer it's enormously gratifying to know that there is an audience

for whatever books and writing people want to do because you think you can guess what people are going to be into and you find that it's often the opposite. And I love that. No, I think that's lovely too. You were not a full-time writer until relatively recently. Just briefly, what were you doing beforehand? So I used to work in the corporate world. I was an HR director latterly of British Gas Business and then I had a midlife crisis. That's the only way I can really describe it and realized that I didn't want to do that anymore. I didn't want to have a 9-5 job anymore and I took the leap. Everyone says don't give up the day job to write. I did the opposite and gave up the day job before I'd even written a word. Thank goodness it paid off.

Do you still wake up in the middle of the night pondering what might have happened if it hadn't worked out? Because that's a hell of a leap you made. I know, and it's actually completely insane. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, and most people in my life thought I'd gone insane. But, you know, it did work out. And for me, I'm the sort of person bit for an all or nothing person so if I'm gonna do something I'm gonna do it 100% and I try not to think of

what might have happened if it hadn't worked out. You say midlife crisis Jenny was it let's just be honest was it a perimenopausal thing that just drove you to decide you you wanted to do something else with your life? Yes, it absolutely was. I found myself in perimenopause, like many women, not actually knowing what it was. And I was particularly affected mentally. So I had severe anxiety and long bouts of depression. And I guess, yes, midlife crisis is one term, dark night of the soul is another. I actually really had to rethink who I was

and what I wanted from life as a consequence of having a really difficult time mentally as part of perimenopause. That bit where you felt so anxious but you didn't know what to call it, how frightening was that? It was terrifying because I had been in the kind of job that I was doing at the time for 20, 25 years and suddenly I was terribly, terribly anxious about doing it and it seemed inexplicable to me that I would feel so awful every single morning without explanation. So I found it very, very frightening. In the end, I'm sure there's so many women who've been through this. I googled my symptoms and that was how I found out I was in perimenopause. And what has helped? So HRT helped me, testosterone has helped me. I also think though that changing my life in

terms of its external circumstances helped me too. Yeah, I mean it's interesting that you feel almost embarrassed saying it, but you've done your time working for British Gas, you've done your corporate thing. And I don't think a man would agonise quite so much about pursuing their artistic bent. And in the end, mercifully Jenny, you did go for it. Yes, and you're absolutely right. But can we just ask a couple of practical questions? I'm assuming that you had enough savings to be able to take that risk because I'm just conscious there'll be people listening who think well God I mean chance would be a fine thing.

Well I did have enough savings but only for a certain amount of time and that time did pass so I mean I can remember gritting my teeth and thinking, do I need to go back into a job? Everything in publishing takes a lot longer than you think it's going to. But I held my nerve. I know that I'm really lucky to have been able to do that, but it wasn't without risk. No, no, okay. And when did you know that this book, The List of Suspicious Things, was a hit? The day I had the idea, I knew it was going to change my life.

And I can't tell you how I knew that, but it was almost like a physical feeling. I had goosebumps and I knew somehow, which is how I held my nerve, that this book was going to change my life. I think the moment that I realised that I wasn't hallucinating this was when my publisher rang me to tell me it was an instant Sunday Times bestseller and that we'd gone in at number three and I can still see myself sat outside boots in my car crying and swearing and screaming that this amazing thing had happened. Yeah, it was a great, I mean this year has been pretty incredible.

Well, look, I'm chuffed for you. Sometimes it is worth taking that chance, isn't it? Let's talk about the book because it features a young girl growing up in a, well it's not an unhappy home but it's a home with challenges and in the background these killings just keep happening. Just outline some of the circumstances of Miv's story. Yeah so Miv's home life isn't great, money is very tight and her mum is ill in a way that she can't quite comprehend at that stage. Margaret Thatcher's just become Prime Minister, which whatever you think of Margaret Thatcher was not a great thing for the North, and the killings were creating an atmosphere of real fear in the neighbourhood. And Miv's dad, Austin, decides that he's going to move the family down south, which to any Northerner is a terrible thing. It's a fate worse than death. So Miv decides that

she's going to solve the murders by creating this list of suspicious things that she and her best friend Sharon will investigate. And that's kind of the premise of the whole book. Now on our Off Air Book Club, which is something that we run alongside the podcast, Off Air with Joan and Fee, we have been discussing Joanna Cannon's book, The Trouble with Goats and Sheep. And there are, they're not, your book is not the same. There are similarities, aren't there? Oh, there are similarities to the extent that I hadn't read The Trouble with Goats and Sheep

while I was writing List. And I heard about it. And I heard about the premise. And I thought, oh, no, someone's written the book already. Luckily, when I read it, I found out that obviously it's a very different book, but the start point is not December Lai, you're absolutely right. Yeah, because it's about innocent young girls battling for truth and justice actually. That sounds incredibly pompous, but that's it, isn't it?

And there are some very very memorable characters in both books but in your book obviously there's Omar who is a man who runs the corner shop and there's Auntie Jean who is the mainstay of the household and does a lot of kitchen work and tuts a lot often at Margaret Thatcher and yeah I mean these people, to me this is a TV series, is it going to happen? Oh I tell you, I absolutely hope it's going to happen and there's been obviously lots of interest in the book from other countries, it's recently sold in America, which is amazing.

So I'm crossing my fingers that once the UK starts investing in drama again, which hasn't been happening of late, that someone will take an interest in it. Well, I think it's so important because this is a British story and you can watch as many high octane glossy thrillers as you like. But I think a lot of us crave stuff about Britain and about important social historical developments. And this is without question, it's one of them. So let's, I really hope that happens Jenny, I really do. What are you writing now? I'm writing, so obviously List of Suspicious Things is set in the 1970s, my second novel

is set in the 1980s, it's around another big historical event, although a lot less dark in terms of the research this time. So yes, I'm writing an 80s set book at the moment. Can I guess what the event is? Yes, go for it, see if you can. 1980s, oh gosh there were a lot of tragedies but it's not a tragedy. No, it's actually a beautiful thing although it comes out of a tragedy. So it's a global event right smack bang in the middle of the 1980s. Live Aid. Yes. I'm so looking forward to it already. So we look forward to Jenny's next book which is going to be about that pivotal event in the 1980s. Do you remember where you saw Live Aid? I do. We were invited to a friend's party just outside Farnham. Catherine, I'm not going

to give her surname because she may not want to mention on this podcast. I can't think why not. But what do you never know, do you? I know you're quite rough. A lot of people want to just leave us behind, Jo. That's too many people. But it was incredibly exciting. It was very moving and it was one of those weird days because it's quite a hot summer's day, wasn't it?

And we all just kept on trupesing, trapezing back inside to watch this extraordinary thing unfold on the television. And I don't think I would be alone in saying that nobody realized amongst our cohort of friends at the beginning of the day how we'd feel by the end of the day it was a proper proper moving thing that caught your heart didn't it? Yeah. Where were you? I was at my friend David Thompson his mum let us have a party at his house I don't know where his parents were but I think oh yeah we had to yeah it was an amazing day you're quite right but the truth is when you bear witness to history you don't know you're doing it do you? No of course not. It was just another day in my so 1985 I

would have been I just left university and it was 85 wasn't it? Yes I was it was in my last year we're just on our A A-levels. Yeah, that would be right. And I do remember thinking, I was so glad it had worked. And do you remember that Phil Collins made that trip on Concord? Oh, so he could play twice? Twice, yeah. I mean, there was so much that was remarkable about that day. I remember watching Freddie Mercury and just being mesmerised. I mean, it's really hard actually to imagine now a time before that performance. It is such an iconic

piece of footage of a man absolutely at the height of his powers in front of a crowd that was at the height of their excitement. I mean it gives me tingles even just thinking about it. I'd never really been a fan of Queen and I'm still not a fan of Queen but that was just the most remarkable performance. Absolutely incredible. Yeah, he was mesmerizing. I always found them kind of too bombastic. I always really liked them. I loved that kind of operatic thing about them. What's your favorite line from Bohemian Rhapsody? Thunderbolt. Lightning. Very, very frightening. And it is frightening.

Mamma Mia, Mamma Mia. I sold my saxophone, gave the money to Live Aid, my parents are furious. Keep your thoughts coming. That's lovely. That's a very nice show. It's a very nice side to you. Jane and Fiat Times, talk radio. I'm still at Radio. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee, thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4, on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this,

you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. on the free Times Radio app. Offer is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. ["The New York Times Radio Show Theme Song"] You want work to be less hard work.

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