Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Judgy or concerned?

Episode Date: May 6, 2025

There's quite a lengthy period of accents in this episode – please be warned. Jane and Fi also cover women fishing, thong bikinis, onions and oranges, and VE Day. Plus, former Vogue.com UK editor Dolly Jones discusses her new book, 'Leaving the Ladder Down'. If you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is: Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFSend your suggestions for the next book club pick! If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh my god, we're doing accents everybody, beware. Fake. Who else has seen it? On ITVX. Well no, it suddenly went slightly, I think that might have been a hint of Joberg there at the end. Apologies. Local, national, global, there's always an election. And politicians are always thinking about the next one. The smell of victory, of Xs in ballot papers is the thing that actually makes it worthwhile. On How to Win an Election, we've assembled a crack team of strategists who've all been at the top political table for both the good times and the terribly bad.

In the end, that is what a Prime Minister does. Every week, we answer the big political questions. Are we living in Morgan McSweeney's government or Keir Starmer's? Listen to How to Win an Election wherever you get your podcasts. Best episode yet. Right, we'd like to say a very warm welcome to this slightly shorter week created by the May Day Bank Holiday. We hope everybody had a very nice time on their bank holidays if you're listening outside the UK. I'm sorry, you might not have had a holiday at all. We've

got so many postcards, Jane. We're going to have to have more than a wall. What's bigger than a wall? We could just build an enormous extension. We could. Two times towers and just line it with our postcards. Dani has done us one of her very, very beautiful postcards that always has relevant things and this time around we've got the Wensleydale Carrot and Chutney sandwich. Look, I'm really keen on Wensleydale. I've said it. I know the world's crumbliest most tasteless cheese. It's not tasteless it is crumbly.

Carry on. And we've also got a Times Pass for producer Eve. We've got a lovely lovely picture of Nancy, the Lido's in there too, Rude Vegetables, Tote Bag, Avanti West Coast, Dora, it's all there, absolutely brilliant. So that goes up and can we say a huge thank you to Holly and to Nicola who sent us not one but two of the Algarve and they're those very, you know when they do four different shots so you really get a lot of bang for your buck on the four shot postcard. They are good value those four shot postcards aren't they? Some do five because they have one in the middle. Yes. They have an image in the middle. This one is definitely workers of the Algarve. Jane

will use her descriptive powers. They are hard at it yes. You've got people with some, I was going to say onions but that's wrong they're oranges. Somebody's weaving a basket. A lady is standing very proudly by her donkey and there are some fisher folk as well. I mean they're actually, they happen all to be men, Fee, but of course... Women are available for menial tasks. Although I'm not sure in all honesty and please do feel free to correct me. That's not a man.

No, the fisher folk are all male. Do women go on fishing boats? Yes they do. What, as a profession? I suppose not as a profession but I only say that because I did watch a documentary once about us, about some of the fishing families off the east coast of Scotland, a very diminished industry, and there were women who went out to sea. But no, you're absolutely right, I mean it was the women who did the terrible de-scaling jobs and all of that kind of stuff.

Oh, and all the guts. Yeah, you know, back on shore and paid a pittance, paid an absolute pittance, and the horrible worry of your men never coming back. Do you know, that was actually on The One Show last night. They were talking about, and I didn't know this, it never even crossed my mind and I felt embarrassed, people who still went out fishing during the war because obviously we needed the fish to eat because there wasn't that much food around and it hadn't occurred to me what danger they were in. So there we are. I'll tell you who was good on the one show last night because it was a... It's usually quite triggering but I'm happy to have this chat. They had Sheila Hancock on talking about her because she's in her early 90s and fantastically eloquent woman

and she just talked about she slightly drilled down to the reality of the grimness and horror of living through war. And of course the one show there's an element of fluff. I mean, I do I think Alex Jones is really good because she's funny. She's funny, but she's not in any way threatening this. She's a really good TV presenter I think and anyway, um, I thought Sheila was she gave it some welly She just talked about let's not get too sentimental about doing the hokey-cokey and all that stuff Let's actually talk about the horror of it all perhaps not in some ways slightly uncomfortable on the old one show sofa But she got a she got a hearing I think Sheila Hancock is one of those people who cannot do the kind of fluffy, let's pump

it all up type of showbiz thing. And I remember her talking about her stage fright once. I mean, this would be a good kind of 20 years ago when I don't think very many people in the acting profession ever admitted. And she was in what's the nun one in the West End musical? The Sound of Music? No, the other one. Black Narcissus? No, the one that Whoopi Gull, Sisterac. Sisterac? Whoopi Gull made famous. She was in the Nun One. Right. And she was, Nun of the above, as it turned out. Yeah. She talked about just being very envious of all of the younger folk in the cast, just full of this kind of desire to get on stage and be part of it and make their mark and

all that kind of stuff. And she said she just couldn't summon that up from anywhere anymore. So actually going on stage was suddenly just really, really nerve wracking and seemed a bit daft. Well, I get much more anxious than I used to about work so maybe that is, is it just an age thing that you just never... I mean when I think about the sheer brass neck I had in my 20s to go on radio and talk about life, well I'd never lived until I knew what I was talking about. Who the hell did I think I was?

And I think there must be a logic to it that you've got your kind of foot on the accelerator, haven't you, in your youth and you've got no idea what the destination is. Not in a Fiat Panda. No, that's very true. That's very true. And when you're much further down the line, A, you can see the pitfalls, B, you might not have that motivation. But I don't think it affects, you know, necessarily affects actors and performers the older they get, because we know some quite old... Careful! We know some old people who are in acting.

We know some sustainable presenters who still just cannot get on air quickly enough. No. Well, the indispensable. Yes. Those whose no day is complete without them and their input. People want to hear from me they think and sometimes they do but not always. Quick hello to Sally who's in Watford. Lindsay from Perth and Scotland. She hasn't sent a postcard from Watford has she? Tess, Sam, Rona, I'll get back to it. Claire, Alex and Paula. Thank you. Lovely. Thank you all. We're actually, we have got a new wall and we're going

to start decorating the new wall. Honestly, she loves this kind of thing. It's why she went into show business. So she could put postcards up on the wall. She's got a degree and everything. I wish she's got a degree, but not in sticking things up. Colleen has sent us a lovely email about VE Day. We're still getting them and by the way, all very welcome this week because we're going to bang on about it throughout the week and our interview with the Mass Observation Historian is going to go out on Thursday. So that will be interesting and that will be part of the podcast as well. It's on the Times Radio Show Monday to Thursday, though not bank holidays. 2 till 4, get the Times Radio app or you could listen on DAB digital

radio. That's true isn't it? What's in the email, Jo? It's from Colleen and she says I must just thank you. I need you to thank us, don't worry about it. As you were talking about VE and mass observation I remembered my grandmother's war diaries and decided it was time to write. They've been stored in a box for many many years and this is what she wrote about Tuesday May the 8th. My grandmother by the way was Doris Maudsmith of Tramway Avenue Edmonton right next to the bus station which is no longer there. So she wrote, did Doris, this is VE Day and all last night from midnight till morning

there was terrific thunderstorm and downpour, one of the worst we've had, still very warm and close. Pauline and Nell went to London where excitement was at its height, here there was nothing all day. Olive came in the afternoon, in the evening we went for a walk across the park with our mothers and hers, a few children will make a couple of bonfires. All the streets are decorated and then we went to Olive's Road where there was a big bonfire. There were two small ones in the avenue, one each side of the road owing to the buses. Plenty of singing, good cheer, still very warm. Thank you, Colleen. So that was Doris's memory of May the 8th and it's that glorious combination of a bit of celebration, but also just the tedium of not much going on in Edmonton when

there appeared to be quite a bit of excitement in central London and the weather was just getting on a wick. I know exactly what she means by close, close. Well I think an awful lot of people yesterday where they had the big parade down the Mall would have longed for close. Yeah, because it was cut me. We'd had that classic bank holiday weekend where we'd had the very good weather last week just in time for the kaggles to need to make an appearance over the weekend certainly in London. Our colleague Hugo Rifkin made a really good point on the radio over the weekend

and one of those things where you just think God why haven't we all thought this and maybe you have thought it before but he is I think 48, apologies if I've got that bit wrong but a little bit younger than you and I. But he was saying the really weird thing is that for all of us when we were young, the war was actually such a recent thing to have happened. But because it's, I think our education was still going through that phase where we didn't talk about the war, we didn't recognise it enough in history lessons or we didn't have PGCE, citizenship lessons or anything like that. And so my knowledge certainly of the war came from family memories and because they were

quite sad family memories, they weren't talked about that often. But I did think gosh I've put it into a jar of way back when and it's not way back when for us at all isn't it? Certainly isn't it? I mean I was born less than 20 years after it ended. Yes and I find that astonishing to think about when you put it exactly like that. I think that's astonishing. I am still astonished that I was taught nothing about it at school. Yeah, it is weird, isn't it?

It's really peculiar and our own children certainly did learn about it at primary school, didn't they? It was back on the curriculum and children went to the Imperial War Museum. Have you been to the bomb shelter in the Imperial War Museum? No. It's actually, well, I haven't been for a while, but it recreates being in a shelter. And then the noise starts and honestly, it's pretty terrifying. And I think a lot of people like myself never experienced it. That is my only experience of what it would have been like for my own parents. But they were so young that they

don't have bad memories of it. But I would love to talk now to my grandparents about what the Blitz was like for people of their age in Liverpool back in 1940, 41. I mean, it wasn't a huge amount of time, we should say. It wasn't London and Liverpool and Glasgow and Belfast and Bristol and Swansea were not bombed for six years every night. It wasn't that relentless. But by God, God when it happened it must have been absolutely terrifying. Yeah but it's weird it's like the little kind of bubble in a spirit level isn't it? You know there is something, a part of history that always gets trapped and super sealed in your lifetime. It's a different point of history for every generation but the Second World

War is that for us. It is just weird. It's just for us, it's tantalizingly out of reach, isn't it? Because we didn't live through it. And even if you have parents who did, they're probably too young to have real recollections of just how tough it was. So that's why we need people like Sheila Hancock given the opportunity to say, you know what, let's not just focus on doing the Lambeth Walk, let's actually talk about how tough it was. Oh definitely and I mean never has there been a time where it is more relevant to understand the friction between the monsters who want to dominate the West and people who would like to remain free.

You are quite. I really wanted to mention Emma who said, we're back with VE Day here, but I wanted you to know about my larger than life Birmingham born grandmother, Doreen Dolly Perkins. She was a suburban housewife in Ashtead in Surrey during the Second World War and she wrote a strongly worded and eloquent letter to the government to take more urgent action to boost supply chains and it was published in the newspaper. A keen-eyed producer at the BBC spotted the letter and invited her to Broadcasting House to be interviewed by the Home Service. Apparently she had so much to say they called her Mrs Britain and for a few weeks she was the voice of the English housewife. Her fame however was short-lived she got fed up

after a few weeks because they refused to pay her a proper contributors fee and only gave her a bus fare. Well if you do business with the BBC you need to be very very aware they do have that kind of inclination as Dolly discovered. Anyway Emma thank you very much and it's just worth saying that Doreen Perkins of Craddock's Avenue, Ashton and Surrey, did write this letter to the editor of The Evening Standard. And basically, she says, "'I'm writing to endorse your leading article,

"'Cloth the Naked' of August the 22nd. "'It is vital that the women of Britain "'be helped in their privations and be helped at once. "'Their murmurs are becoming louder. They will shortly become a roar as you would realise had you got to stand in their cues. There's a lot in this letter and I think it's just worth saying that one of the big problems about VE Day and I gather this from this book I've read about it that we're talking about on Thursday is that nobody knew when it was going to be announced, the

peace in Europe, and housewives, because that's what they were, had to really worry about whether the shops would be open and whether they'd have enough to eat to celebrate. So no wonder Dolly was fuming about everything and it wasn't just that. But how typical that the BBC just decided to give this little lady a bus fare and nothing more for her on-air contributions. But that habit did last a very long time, didn't it? Quite often you would only be able to offer a guest just transport. Transport or I think the appearance fee on Woman's Air from memory was 35 quid. OK.

Yeah, which, I mean, you know, it's just not a lot of money, is it? That's not for the presenters. That's a whole separate... I'm talking about the contributors. Yes, let's not reopen that wound. Yeah, the bleeding may never stop. Dear Jane, Fee and Eve, now you're very welcome to address your emails to Eve. We've got a specific one coming just at Eve, not for us at all. I mean, we are limply, we are simply...

We're clinging to her. We are simply going to read it out so Eve can come back at us with it. But this one comes from Louise who says, I listened to your conversation this week about bikinis. Just after a very warm day down here in Cornwall, we never get it as hot as you do in London, but we do get the advantage of being by the sea. I'm sure Cornwall is sometimes as hot as London. Easily. It is, yeah.

I work in a popular seaside town and yesterday went for a stroll in the sunshine at lunchtime. There were people on the beach having fun. Lots of older people out and about on the promenade. Two young girls, probably 15 or 16, strolled past me in bikinis on their way to the Louvre and these were the bikinis that go up your bum. Needless to say, a lot of heads turned on the promenade. Later I was in the co-op after work and a girl

wearing the same type of bikini was there in the queue buttocks out. I'm so conflicted about this as I don't want to be that judgy person by the way the email is called, judgy or concerned. It's a great name for a show. That's where many of us find ourselves. They're just laying themselves open for unwanted attention at such a young age. Are they just trying to rebel and shock people as many teenagers do in some way? Am I being prudish? Is there a bigger question of young girls being made to feel that they should be showing off their bodies? What do you feel about this and does Eve look at it differently?

With fondest regards from Louise. Well, that's a cracker of a question there Louise. It is and I've had that confusion myself Louise so I don't know how I can answer this. Let's go straight to Eve. Let's bring in Eve. So Eve you're going to have to put your microphone up my lovely and properly join the throng. You were saying earlier that sometimes it's about tan lines and it's definitely about context. So I would wear a teeny tiny bikini bottom. I wouldn't wear it in a supermarket because I've worked at Tesco. Oh yeah. Well you went viral at Tesco. That's true. So I've had to ask men to put their tops

back on as they've come off Brighton Beach. So I wouldn't do that to someone else. But if I was in Europe, I probably would wear a tiny bikini bottom because I don't think it looks very flattering to have the tan lines across your bum cheeks. Yes, interesting, isn't it? How do you feel about tan lines across your bum cheeks? Turning to my older colleague. Of all the things currently consuming my conscious and subconscious mind.

This is what I came into journalism for. That's not one of the things keeping me awake at night. Oh god, I really feel for our correspondent here because I would worry. Have you ever had a tan? Of course I haven't. I haven't. I mean it's pathetic. I wish I just go bright red and then peel and then just give up. So now it's on with the fact of 50. I also wouldn't want a burn line across my buttocks. So whatever suits you. Just make sure you're getting a fong bikini bottom this slow up. Thanks darling. I will. I will. Oh no, I've called a darling. I'll probably be sat now, right? Okay, I shouldn't have done that. Sorry Eve. But you see, I do think this is an age-old query, isn't it?

Are these young women... Well, look, of course they should be able to dress any damn way they please. And you are beautiful. Of course you are at that age and way beyond, I'm going to say. But is it sending quotes the wrong message or is the problem with those people who might be receiving the message, not with the people giving the signals out? Well it's definitely that. But as we know, most men, I'm going to just say that there actually, have not read the memo all the way down to the bottom on that one. So that's the huge problem, isn't it?

I mean, honestly, I'm sure I've said this before, but I have had conversations in our hall, you know, longer lines of you can't go out like that. Every mother has. And no doubt fathers as well. And your heart breaks. Yes, because you have to tell them why they can't. And you don't want to be that harbinger of doom, but you are that harbinger of doom because you know what the reality might be and you don't want people you love to be taking the chance.

But what I find quite strange, because I'm not sure would many people disagree on that. I don't know. I think that kind of, you know, be brave, be sensible, friction is there in every aspect of our lives and it just seems more pronounced for women than it does for men and that is a sad fact, isn't it? Yeah, it is. I'm afraid we live in the world we live in and we have to act accordingly. Yeah. But I wish we didn't. But A, there's nothing to stop other people around a group of beautiful young girls wearing

small bikinis if they see them being ogled for calling out the ogling. I think that's a good thing to do. What's a good thing to say? Okay, that's a really good point. So what would I say if I see some lascivious old git doing the ogling? Do I shout, oi grandad? Well quite a few times I've said eyes up to men. So when they're either looking at my cleavage or somebody else's cleavage or ogling, you know, young teenagers who I'm with, I would just say, eyes up mate. And they know exactly

what I mean. And I suppose it's less... And how does that end? They just wander off? Well, quite a few times. They've just laughed actually. But in a kind of, I know you've called me out way, not in an aggressive way, actually in a kind of like all shit, yeah, you've absolutely seen that, but I'm sure I should probably be more stern about it actually, there's not much to be laughing about there. But you know what I was gonna say just on a kind of less contentious level, it's the supermarket thing that just bewilders me. There are lots of European countries where they get really annoyed, particularly with Brits who do go

into the town centre and I know this has happened in Barcelona quite a lot and you know people, Brits abroad seem to think it's absolutely fine to just put on a pair of flip-flops and head off you know to do your... That is very much we're not in the real world so we can act in a strange way because we're somewhere entirely alien. Yeah, and I can flip around a Cortez and Glazey or whatever it's called, fabulous supermarket in Spain. Oh is it? That sounds good. That's one of their chains, isn't it? Really, really good. I bet they have some lovely fabric conditioners in there.

Yeah, I mean just a tankini or less. I don't think that's particularly pleasant. I just wouldn't... I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that Jane. Alison in Birkhamstead, Birkhamstead, Birkhamstead. Far be it for me to correct anything which is uttered by either one of you broadcasting legends. But I want to point out that the winners of Race Across the World do get something. They get £20,000 in cash for their troubles. So I was completely wrong. My apologies for that Alison. Alison goes on to say that I completely agree with Fiat's great TV, unadulterated, informative and entertaining. Love to you both. I just couldn't recommend it highly enough if you haven't started watching

it. You've only got two episodes you need to catch up on and you do. Gosh I didn't know that you get 20 grand at the end of it. The episode three that they're going to show this Thursday evening in the United Kingdom, Royale Unie, is that what it's called? Royale Unie. Royale Unie. That's coming round again soon, isn't it? Yeah, a couple of weeks.

Eurovision. We're not going to win. That's very true. What was I saying? Oh, episode 3. It's a knockout episode. How do you know? So one of the couples, the couple who comes in last.

Do you watch it in the Newfangled way? No, the couple that comes in last will get eliminated from the series and they're all lovely. Oh, I see. They're all lovely. They're all lovely, I don't want that to happen. Well while we're talking about Telly, we've both watched this Australian... Oh my god, we're doing accents everybody, beware.

Fake! Who else has seen it? On ITVX. Oh no, it suddenly went slightly... I think that might have been a hint of Joberg there at the end. Apologies. So, Fee's finished fake. I think you rushed through it towards the end. Well, I didn't really, I didn't do all the bits in the middle. No, okay. I faked it. She made it. I've got, I think, two more to go. But I think it's quite, it's a bad romance scam. And frankly, my klaxon was going off right from the first moment they met but our protagonist kept going for reasons I didn't fully, if I'm honest, didn't fully understand. She was a journalist as well which was odd wasn't it that she didn't ask a few more questions about this. Oh I think it's very cleverly done.

Oh it is, it's very cleverly done, it's a great drama. But it's about that vulnerability and also about the world and particularly a mother just not valuing a woman. Oh the mother's dreadful. Yeah. Anything other than have you settled down yet? Have you got anybody? We don't really live. Yeah well at one stage she does basically say you have to be realistic about what you can achieve out there. What's out there? Right, so it is good though, it is definitely good and I've just started watching The Four Seasons which is on the Netflix. It is written by Tina Fey who is superb and it's about some middle-aged couples who go on a very good friendship group. A ship group? I didn't know where that word was going. Can we stay in

Australia? Let's stay there. Because they've had some little elections down under and we have correspondents. Albinaisy got back in. Another triumph for Donald Trump. Eve says stop it. Okay. She's just got it slightly above herself because she got involved over on. That'll be the last time we do that for you. Right, Adam says I worked at the Australian elections. No, Adam. Let's go back to Adam. What's left? For a moment there, I was going to be able to play my bottle like a flute. Carry on. If you do ever learn how to play your bottle like a flute. Carry on. If you do ever learn how to play your bottle like a flute go on another podcast and tell them about it. Adam worked at the Australian elections that took place yesterday, crossing people off the lists, dishing out the ballot papers

and issuing instructions on the fiendishly odd preference voting system associated with the meter-long senate slips. Blimey, you can imagine that would take some explanation, I would need help. As you know, voting here is compulsory and whilst 27 spoiled ballots out of 1477 in our station didn't count, I felt heartened by witnessing democracy at play, but particularly by the first time voters who all seem to take their role really seriously. That's good, isn't it? An overwhelming observation though yesterday moved me to inwardly determine that you'd be interested in this, but maybe not surprised. It's the behavioural trait of a significant number of male partners. Now, can I sympathise

with all your female listeners whose partners speak for them? Believe me, it's as notable as it's appalling, but I felt I couldn't win when issuing instructions, addressing them both and either giving license for him to turn to his wife and reissue them to her, or giving him the facility to say, have you got that? So the gentleman feels that he needs to just, you know, see if the little ladies got it. I mean that is annoying, isn't it? Yes. One husband accused his wife of always mumbling when I had to ask for her surname again and so I very deliberately set him right and said it was actually my hearing that was a problem.

I honestly don't think some men folk realised just how incredibly rude and belittling they can be. The happier couples there were those that were truly a team, whether it was the banter, the obvious care, the respect, but the most obvious and subtle aspect was the calm and contented aura they exuded together. That's interesting isn't it, because I imagine people like Adam in that setting do have an opportunity to just observe people and the interplay between them. That's it really, he says, but through your auspices can I just ask husbands to hold a mirror once in a while? It's not a good look. And whilst I did spot the odd eye roll from an uncomplaining wife, I couldn't help but wonder what genuine happiness there can be in these partnerships

that surely must have started so brightly. Oh, Adam. Or did they start off in exactly that kind of way? Then in slightly threateningly, Adam says, I'm visiting Time's Towers. By way of an apology in advance, if I see you I'll be stopping to say hello. Don't worry about that, Adam. Well, Adam, not if we see you first. In which case, we'll be doing the talking. And you'll be stopping to say hello. Don't worry about that. Well, Adam, not if we see you first. In which case, we'll be doing the talking.

And you'll be listening. No, I do think that's right. Of course, it's not hashtag not all men, Fee. I think it's a very good point. It's a very good point. Do you think that that still exists in the younger generation? I don't know. Does it?

I mean, is it more likely to happen in Australia? I don't think that's true either. Why is it that I think I wonder whether the voting system, it does sound a bit complicated. And I would certainly need assistance in how to do the whole preferential voting thing. If as he says, the voting slip is about a meter long, you probably do need to explain to you. Sometimes men don't like having things explained to them even if it's by another man and they might feel that they can just I don't know exert themselves a little bit by Pretending that it might be all too much for the little lady and that they themselves are more likely to understand it first time Round than them but the truth is most of us are boggled by that kind of thing You just need to be able to say no. Could go through that again please? I don't know. Yeah, I mean Adam's got a point.

Men, stop it. Yeah, I'm sorry that's my phone is just humming gently there. And Adam come and say a proper hello to us when you're in the building. It'd be nice to put a name to the face. Pamela joins us from Waukeke Island, Auckland. My apologies if I've pronounced that wrong. It would have been easier to do with an accent, but he's not going to let us do any more. I think we've had our accent quota for the week. And Pamela has sent a photograph, and you're right, I have found it very upsetting, Pamela.

I think of you both as my friends now, so it's in that spirit that I submit for Fee's Horror, a photograph I took recently in Joy. And this is a photograph of Pamela in sandals with some of her toes slipping off the edge. And it's terrifying. It's that little one there. It's going right off the side.

It's just going to fall off. It's going to fall off the side. What are you going to do Pamela? What are you going to do with that toe? Also, why is she taking pictures of her own feet? We all have our thing. It's a big thing on OnlyFans. I've often said if I have two parts of my body I don't dislike, because hey we all have

issues, quite a good navel and my feet were alright. But do you know what's just happened? What? I've got a corn. Oh no. So depressing for you. Well that's going to push the OnlyFans back a good decade, isn't it? It is. I'm going to have to actually carry on working here. What do you class as a good navel?

I tell you what, this is quite a big Tuesday. What's a good navel? Neat. An innie. An innie? Yeah, not an outie. Okay. Well, I'm never going to see it, so we're just going to have to all imagine James Naval. This is the one that was directed straight at Evelyn. Thank you for keeping the podcast on form. It comes from Noel. Just wanted to say that I appreciate what you do behind the scenes. My daughter

was a radio producer in commercial radio, the BBC and independent podcasts. She still works in radio, but in a different role now. She gained experience through university and community radio, then assistant producer at one of the major stations before becoming a producer. So I know it's not a role you can just step into without the experience, technical knowledge, negotiation skills, securing talent as guests, and patience and empathy with presenters." That's got an emoji at the end of it.

Often she was asked what it was like working for well-known presenters and she'd reply something along the lines of, it's a pleasure working with them. And actually that's a very important distinction to make. I'm saying this even though I know that Joanneff must treasure you, but some of the audience will have the impression you're a timekeeper and a Google reader. I don't. I think you do a great job. Congratulations. Well, Noel, we would absolutely echo all of your sentiments because we regard Eve very highly and she's very talented producer and she puts up with a lot from us. So we have a kind of human form of emoji around her all the time.

I think she knows she's appreciated. In fact I praised her several times last week as she did quite a lot of good things for me. For you, not with you. Oh sorry yeah. We probably need to bring in a guest but I just want to say, no seriously, seriously thanks Eve. Sean, we love hearing from you, Sean and Katrin. In a down moment at work, my colleagues were discussing CNA, do you remember I said last week? What did you say it was? Coats and hats. Coats and hats, yeah.

Like you, we weren't sure A, whether this had existed and B, what the initials stood for. Well, this was all in a pre-Googling age. Oh, this is a while ago then Sean. So I looked up their phone number in this thing called a telephone directory. Sean must have done what kind of job you were doing at the time, but he had time anyway to go through the phone directory, find CNA's number, and he rang them. Sorry to disturb, I said. But what do CNA, the letters, stand for?

I don't know, said the company representative I was talking to. Could it be cheap and awful? Slightly off-brand, I assumed, but it gave me a chuckle as I returned to my productive working day. It sounded to me like you just got the voice of a very cheesed-off receptionist person when you rung up, Sean. Cheap and awful, doesn't it? You wouldn't get away with that these days I don't think. business, culture and sport wherever you are with the latest stories and live updates on the Times app and website. Don't miss out. Visit thetimes.com forward slash subscribe with Google to claim your offer today. 18 plus new customers only. Offer ends midnight April the 14th. Tees and sees apply. Now you've divided the nation about whether or not you are a proper scouser and I'm going

to keep people on tenterhooks and save this continuing argument for tomorrow but it did make me laugh and also I apologise if I've accidentally stumbled on something that is that people are going to get very upset about. Would that be the case or is everyone going to have a tongue in firmly in their cheeks? You know us? We can't stop laughing. But everyone's funny isn't it? Right, apart from Trent going to Real Madrid. Everything's funny apart from that. Right, yes. Final one from me. Anita says, dear Finjane, of course people remember their first time

date. Mine is my... Can I just say I don't? I remember the event but I don't remember the date. I don't even remember the time of year. Can you remember the where? Yes. Of course people remember their first time date. Mine is my pass one. Honolulu. To many apps and my computer. It's been a while and reminds me about those happy very silly moments 35 years ago. However, I would rather not celebrate this significant moment with the participant of that event. Sending love as always. We're back at you Anita. Wouldn't that be funny if there was like a rule in life that you had to spend the anniversary of that event with the person with whom you were with when you were doing that event, when

you were having the event, you had to make an annual commitment to meet up with them. It would be so weird. I don't think it's a good idea. If I'm elected that'll be one of my policies. Okay. But it's just the idea that it's your password. I do find that strange and I... I think it's great. I mean you're absolutely right, you're not going to forget it. No one really forgets it but I am genuinely somebody who... I do remember dates of all sorts of things but that one, absolutely no memory at all. I mean obviously it wasn't winter because it wasn't snowing or it weren't outside. You were outside? No we weren't outside! Right let's for God's sake let's go to the guest. Let's. When Dolly Jones had her kids she felt the pain of the return to work a bit keenly. She was at Condé Nast

where she worked away right up to the top heading its digital operations for 15 years. Not every woman finds the landscape of work to suddenly be hostile to rain. For some the familiarity of the workplace can be a really welcome change from what can also be the exhaustion and chaos of early parenthood and the constant wiping. But for many it is tricky. So Dolly decided she wanted to help that trickiness and she's written a book called Leaving the Ladder Down, How to Combine Career and Motherhood from the Women Who've Done It. Dolly, it's lovely to see you. Thank you for having me. You seem perfectly composmentous, you seem okay. So far. I hope that is true, so far. It's a great book

because it's a compendium of real experience, isn't it? And as you say right at the beginning, it's not telling you how you should do it, it's telling you how other people have done it, and it's quite take it or leave it, isn't it? Well, that was the idea. I mean, it's not to sort of prescribe anything to anybody, but I found when I first went back, you know, a business that was run by women for women, that there wasn't a very,

there wasn't a habitually atmosphere to talk about our own children. But when people did let slip a little detail of, you know, a childcare disaster or some horrendous thing that happened that morning or something triumphantly amazing, I was fascinated. And then when I was going back from work once, I'd stayed too long in a meeting because it was a really fun, really glamorous meeting, so I was going to miss pick up and I felt terribly guilty and I was calling everybody to try and get various children picked up from various places and give permission to the school and suddenly the taxi driver turned around and said oh there's no guilt like a working mother's

guilt and she was a she and she had four children and she'd studied the knowledge when her twins were 18 months old. So we had this fascinating conversation all the way home then about what the, what her experience had been which was why I then wanted to talk to so many women from so many different professions and find out all of their triumphs and horrors. So tell us about going back to work at Condé Nast. As you say, you know, many, many women in that office, not right at the top of Condé Nast. It's a conversation for another time, darling. But actually, you would have hoped that it would be exactly the right kind of working environment

to then take what is your kind of new self back in. Yes, it wasn't that anybody told me not to. It just, nobody else seemed to do it. I mean, I didn't know whether some of the women there had children or not necessarily. And I think, for me, it came from that bind of being, if if you're working you're not being a terribly good mother But if you're mothering you're not being terribly professional, so then we're not talking about it at all But when you do talk about it, there is this extraordinary Triumph and and it's hysterically funny and also it's absolutely incredibly inspiring And and I think I've quoted both of you in the book and Jane there's an

and I think I've quoted both of you in the book and Jane there's a... What page am I on? She's suddenly perked up there, Donnie. But there's a moment when you said in I think the Fortunately podcast that you'd had a three day week... I barely remember that. ...all those years ago, but you'd interview a Prime Minister in the morning and still be at school ready for pick up. Yes, that was when I was working on the old warhorse that is Woman's Hour, by the way I always defend it, but yes that was a remark. But how unusual is it to have a job like that and I'm really conscious as I'm sure you

are that working in the media is one thing but I'm fascinated by the woman who'd done the knowledge and was driving a cab around her children. How was that possible? Well absolutely I mean a sort of tapestry of different nurseries and her husband also was a taxi driver and so, you know, just from grit and determination. But she's so emotional when she talks about it and so proud of it. And when people talk about being a working parent, the emphasis tends to be on the prohibitors because there are so many of them and there's no getting around that. But sometimes I think if we can talk about the triumph, that the achievement, lead with the achievement,

we kind of back up people like Jolie Brieley who launched Pregnant Then Screwed by saying, look women, even with all these prohibitors, women are achieving so much. Just dial up the flexibility or just make it that little bit easier and they'll achieve all the more and our businesses will thrive all the more. So it's about, yes, leading with achievement rather than inconvenience. And it's also about leading by example and actually I think some of the contributors that you have in the book

have been remarkably honest about times when they haven't and in particular, I'm sorry, I'm just going to pick on Alexandra Schulman, because she says I should have been able to go back to work after she had her child and lead by example and show the way forward of combining these two worlds but I didn't do it very well and therefore people underneath me who worked for me weren't able to see somebody doing it very well. I think it's quite a bold thing to say actually, I don't think you get very many women who can cast that kind of quite honest look back at their own lives and commit that to public record. Yes I think she was under pressure, you know she was forced to go back to work or she went back to work to this incredible job relatively early, I think it was three

months and she had she felt she had to lead by example so therefore she had to be full-time and therefore she had to encourage other people to come back full-time. And she looks at it slightly differently now. And the fact that she's so invested in the conversation and contributed so openly to the book was incredible, because now she's in the conversation helping people in the way that she can. I think one of the hugely important things is to be able to be honest about the amount of support that you have around you in early parenthood. And just speaking personally, nothing annoyed me more than women, men and women, who kind of refuse to admit that actually they had a lot of backup. Because it makes the journey seem easy. We all compare ourselves to each other. And if you don't have a huge amount of backup going on,

that's a difficult comparison. You do talk about that in the book too. Yeah, I think the whole thing can potentially carry so much shame. We don't talk about it much. We don't talk about the mistakes. And we sort of have this sense that we should know how to do it

and just get on with it, don't complain. But when you do share the stories and laugh about it and admit to your, well, my mistakes, it makes it all the more enjoyable. And so the big mistake that I most enjoyed, because I would say to everybody I interviewed, what are your worst moments, what have you got to admit? And they would kind of clam up and I'd say, well, don't worry, I've definitely got the worst story, which is the one when my daughter was about three or four at nursery and they, for some reason,

gave her this questionnaire. And obviously she couldn't read or write, so they read her the questions and then wrote down the answers. And all of the answers are embarrassing. Her favorite toy was an iPad and her favorite food was pizza. But question seven, I think, was, tell me something mommy always says to you, which obviously think she's gonna say I love you and she said you can talk to me when I finished my call and I just but when I told people that

as I was interviewing them they tended to relax and tell me their worst moments because nothing was as bad as that. Nothing really changes if it doesn't change for men too, we're assuming they're a heterosexual, heteronormative relationship obviously, there are many other choices available to people. But what do you think about that? Will there ever be a time where somebody writes a similar thing about the male return to work because we live in such an equal society they're facing the same kind of pressures and hurdles. Funny enough, the end of the book, the appendix is written by a man, Adrian Scotland,

who's a maternity lawyer and he and a couple of people have said to me, why have you got a man giving the last word? So there's already a sort of contentious conversation. Definitely, I think, you know, there is an equivalent book to be written by a man at some point. It was really interesting talking to a couple of men who would be regarded as house husbands and their take on the experience. And what do they say? Well, that actually there are more of them than we assume. That they very much feel this sense of being unsexy,

which kind of makes men not able to win, because when they do help, you know know they're considered a feminine and how much they love it and one man said that he just feels guilty that he doesn't have time to really be a father to his children because he's always doing all the admin and the laundry and the dishwasher which was so recognizable that you do sort of get caught up in the admin thing you're being just grumpy with your children rather than being you know the emotionally connected parent. So yeah I think there's eventually there's a book written by me. Have you seen the nice message from Becky? Do you want to do that one?

She just says I went to the retirement party for my old boss who'd worked full time with four children and got an OBE for services to our industry and she had a beautiful party in front of hundreds of colleagues and the first people she thanked in her speech were the various nannies and au pairs that had made everything possible. So there's absolute transparency there in that moment and that's commendable isn't it? It's really wonderful and also I think women of that age, a friend of my mother's was reading it the other day and his wife, he's 75, he's ex-army and his 75 year old wife, he said she'll cry reading this because she feels such guilt and she felt so alone but I love the idea that people, women

of that generation will also feel buoyed by the fact that so many women are still doing it and that they led the way really. There are some real laugh out loud moments and anecdotes that you include in the book, one about it just being different for men is the following one I think it came from an article in The Economist. Betsy Holden was vice president of strategy and new products at Kraft, a giant food company, when she became pregnant for the second time. No one has ever done the job with two children, her male boss worried. How many children do you have? Miss Holden asked him. Two, he replied. So it goes on. Do you subscribe anything to the notion that if we do talk about the darker side of motherhood, we put women off? I think if we laugh about it then hopefully not, because you know, hopefully there's a whole chapter about, called It's Good to Talk.

And there are so many ramifications of that, because sometimes you're told off for whinging and then putting other people off. But if we're not talking about all of it, not being honest, and authenticity is really what we're going for, you want to work with people who are authentic. I would like that I would like that to become a time where when you are pregnant and you go to your boss and say, here we are, it's an open and welcomed conversation about what all the possibilities are and what their experience was. Because often it's such a contentious conversation, the person announcing their pregnancy feels that they've sort of somehow broken the rules and the people, the employer feels that they might break the legal rules by saying the wrong thing. So everybody shies away from the conversation and it's normal and natural and actually the practicalities of allowing a woman back into the workplace are quite boring compared to what she achieves and what you might learn from her so I think if the conversation can be relaxed and

curious and you know it's always going to be happening so we may as well carry on talking. I think you make such a good point there and actually quite a few of your contributors refer to this as well that you know quite often think you make such a good point there and actually quite a few of your contributors refer to this as well, that quite often you'll come back from maternity leave a stretchier person, a wiser person. You've been to the end of your tether many times. You've experienced something completely different. It is absolutely the same for new fathers too.

So it's weird, isn isn't it that we might regard that experience as somehow being a handicap to the workplace. I think that and I keep saying to people if we think of Stephen Hawking, if he was coming into our place of work would we concentrate on what he was going to say and what we were going to learn and the benefits of our business. Of course we would facilitate whatever needs he had to get him into the building to absolutely the highest possible quality, but then we'd concentrate on what he was going to teach us. And it's the same thing, as you say, it's not a handicap.

Yeah. Where are you in your parenting journey now? Is the work-life bad? Are you having it all, Dolly? How dare you? I keep saying somebody's all is somebody else's nightmare nightmare I think I've put that in the book. My children are 10 and 12 and yeah the challenges come upon us in a different way every day. Oh you've got some juicy times ahead of you. I know, the teenage thing is just on the horizon. So I'll be back for the next book. Yeah well I'll look forward to it, I think it's absolutely fantastic I think it's a great resource and both Jane and I are quite far away now from the return to work after new babies, but I think it's still a really lovely book to read.

I found it was, for me, a little bit like releasing some balloons up into the air, some of the stuff that other people said that I felt that I've never been able to say. So I think it's one for the ages. Dolly, well done. Thank you so much. Thank you. To the point of putting people off motherhood, I mean it is, it's a world of worry but I would say it's one worth entering from my perspective. I mean you never stop worrying. No, every single person I interviewed was just the stories poured out of them, the joy poured out of them, no matter the challenges and the mistakes. It was generally... Never underestimate the joy. Yes, quite. Because there is a lot of that.

Oh bless them, I'm feeling quite emotional. I might ring one of them now. They won't answer, but I might ring. Dolly Jones and her book is called Leaving the Ladder Down, and it is one of those books, Jane. I really, really, really wish it had been around 20 years ago. It sounds really good. Yeah, it's just full of people's experiences. It is quite no holds barred. The book, equally, that I hope will be written at some point in the future is that comparison between the male and the female experience if you're in

a heterosexual relationship. Because I don't think it's easy for men coming back to work when they've had kids. Oh, I think so. Well, some of them are quite glad to go. Yes, but it has its benefits and it's a completely different attitude towards a returning dad and a returning mum. So, plenty to talk about there. We'd love to hear your thoughts. It's Jane and Fee at Time Stop Radio. We've been a bit giddy.

I don't know why. During this episode, but I think that's a combination of a long bank holiday weekend, some patriotic fervour on the streets and the fact that Jane's got a corn. But seriously, if anyone knows how to get rid of the bloody things, I've tried the gel and it doesn't seem to be really working. So somebody out there will know. The email inbox is just gonna be full of terrible things. I might have to go on, you know, the chatbot at the GPs. The one that when I had a query about something else the chatbot wrote back,

do not send images. Oh yeah. But this one I could send images of. Okay. Do you think there's anything to which the chatbot just shuts itself down automatically? Right, we better go and do some other work. Yes, absolutely. Yeah and do some other work. Yes, absolutely. We'll talk to you at the same time tomorrow.

Have a lovely evening. Bye bye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Music