Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Pettiness is underrated

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

Welcome to Jane's podcast masterclass. Please be seated. The Jane's chat chocolate kittens, ASNAC, hero pigeons, and war memories. Plus, The Sunday Times health editor Shaun Lintern discusses the sodium valproate scandal. There will be no podcast on Monday. Fi is back on Tuesday with Jane Mulkerrins. Jane and Fi will return to regular podcast business on Monday, the 28th of April. Send your suggestions for the next book club pick! If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For some reason, this toilet made me think of you. Okay. Thanks, Philippa. And that's the end of Postcard Corner. Forever. We're on. It's Thursday, Maundy Thursday. Happy Maundy Thursday, if that's what you say. Well, I don't think it is. Is it happening? No, it's not. Well, no, it's tomorrow. Happy Maundy Thursday, if that's what you say. Is it happening? No, it's not.

Well, no, it's tomorrow that's the Holy Day of Obligation, isn't it? I'll be doing Stations of the Cross multiple times as a good lapsed Catholic. Yes, of course. I'm not even a lapsed Catholic, I'm just not a Catholic. But I tell you what, the nature of the Easter weekend has really changed, hasn't it? I mean, when I was growing up, obviously, Liverpool of Catholic, heavy city, not everyone's a Catholic, I mean on Good Friday you just wouldn't play out. No. You would just not think of doing it. People used to keep their curtains shut all day. Really? Yes. I mean honestly, the idea that you did not make a commotion in the street

with your Conkers or anything. No, everything was closed, wasn't it? Good Friday things were closed. And Saturday and Sunday. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like as a child definitely I felt that it was quite a quiet boring weekend. Yeah. And then in my youth I just went raving for four days and now I go to garden centres. So, you know. The circle of life. So I'm trying to buy you both some chocolate bunnies because that is the way we celebrate three days of holy obligations. But they, none to be found in London Bridge. So you've got chocolate kittens instead.

You've got a clutter of kittens, which felt appropriate to be honest. Thank you very much. Happy Easter. A clutter of kittens? Solid milk chocolate. They've got names, I know. One of them has got the name of my former cat mittens. Oh God, sorry, have I triggered you with my present? I have to take a week off. Good lord, I can't do anything right. No, very sweet. Thank you, Jane. You're welcome. I literally haven't got anything to give you back. What's the matter Eve? Put them on the Insta. Put them on the Insta? Yeah, I do. Yeah, oh but

everything. Trigger her twice. Exactly. Everything's Instagramable. Well, almost everything. Thank you for the postcards which have kept on coming. Got a posh one here from the Isle of Wight from Amanda. Thank you for all you do, she says. Just arrived here from New Zealand. Oh, welcome. It's an epic trip. Catching up with my ex-boyfriend from 40 years ago. Oh, wow. And we're having a lovely time.

Then I'm going on to the Peak District to stay with my wonderful sister Fiona. We both listen to your podcast. Brilliant. Well, Amanda, thank you very much. I mean, what is it like to catch up with an ex-boyfriend from 40 years ago? I can't quite, I mean, I'm glad you're still in touch and you're meeting up. I'd like to know. I wonder if there's a little frisson still. Is there a frisson? Jacob's in Bristol. I hope you both well and you have a happy Easter. Thanks for all the great broadcasting and podcasting. Thank you, Jacob. Just listening to Jane commentating on Jeff Bezos sending his fiance into space. That was some of my best commentary work about the contribution I made. Did you ever think, when you were doing the hour of woman, that one day you'd be seeing

women being blasted into space in a big penis shaped rocket and you'd have to say what you saw. Say what you see that's what they always told you at the BBC. What a time to be alive. But actually I didn't because I didn't mention it looked like a giant phallus although I knew it's what everybody was thinking and of course it's also what I was thinking. You're a professional. I-ish. Jacob, thank you. His

card is of Glastonbury Tor. Have you ever been to Glastonbury Tor? I've never been to Glastonbury Tor. There's some lovely Friesians in front of it as well. There are some great big cows there, yes. It's a very, as we know, it's all, is it the ley lines at Glastonbury that make it very, very mystical? Yep. Yeah. Oh, but that reminds me, I'm reading a book at the moment. I try it occasionally to give little book recommendations. And this is a book that's taking me right outside my 21st century world. And I'm loving it for that reason. It's called Mere. M-E-R-E. Mere. It's set in 990. Oh, it's a long time ago. I'm not very good with historical fiction. Well, normally I'm not and I totally get you. It's by...

Danielle Giles. Danielle Giles, that's right. But if you just want total escapism, I'm really liking it. It uses a lot of Anglo-Saxon words. You must have done a bit of Anglo-Saxon at university, didn't you? No, I didn't. I did social and political sciences.

Oh, I thought you did English. Oh, well I've slightly altered my view of you Jane. For better or worse, don't tell me. For much worse. No, because I did, at Birmingham, we had to do an Anglo-Saxon course in the first year and if you didn't pass it you didn't get your degree. Really? Oh yeah, it was quite, there was this thing called Sweets Reader, people will know what

I mean but it was, Anglo-Saxon wasn't my strong point. It was a whole subject at Cambridge. Oh yes, could you go on? Asnack, Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Celtic. What? Asnack. You could do a degree? Uh-huh, in Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Celtic.

Okay, well, all I'll say about me... I had fancy did Asnack. What do they do with it in later life? Make a really useful paper hat out of it, I imagine. What do you go on to do in life with a degree in? Anglo-Saxon, North and Celtic. By the way, it's fascinating, all that stuff, and we sort of rate ourselves, but we're just here now.

But I don't know what I'd do with a degree in social and political sciences. I don't bring up Bourdieu every day, or Adorno and Horkheimer. But you could with me, and I wouldn't know what you were talking about, but I'd welcome the contact. You'd nod along and change the subject. You almost certainly would, back to me. Just to say that if you would a bit of escapism, it's set around a convent in 990, things aren't easy for anyone, and it's just a bit, it's a bit strange and otherworldly and I'm really enjoying it. I do like a convent tale so that's... Yes well let me tell you that's appealed. Not all the ladies are keeping their hands to themselves. So basically you're saying it's a historical lesbian

romp. Well we haven't got to that bit yet but I feel it might be coming so to speak. Right, this is from Sarah. Jane of Fee and Jane just walked 80 miles round the Borders Abbey Way in Scotland. I think that's... Bravo! Lovely trip. Look, pretty. Pretty as a picture, but at 60, I'm not sure I can walk 17 miles a day anymore. Selkirk Hill features on this beautiful card. Oh, I hope you do some foam rolling after that. Wow, I think it's Sarah actually, not Sarah. Thank you very much for that. That looks amazing. Very good effort. Also a lovely card of an outside toilet from Birmingham from Philippa.

Do you remember outside toilet? No, my grandparents had an outside toilet. My grandparents did as well. It was freezing out there. Oh God, my grandad apparently used to keep a pocceen on the top of it, the illegal moonshine juice of Ireland. Hope he didn't get confused between fluids there. Why did he store it there? Because it's illegal. Oh I see. And you know, you want to serve it cold, that stuff, I guess.

Philippa's been back to Birmingham to look at the back-to-backs with her siblings aged 62, 63, 66 and 72. So did they have an outside, they used to have an outside toilet? So she says, so lovely to have a day out together and laugh a lot about childhood memories and rivalries. For some reason, this toilet made me think of you. OK, thanks Philippa. And that's the end of Postcard Corner. Forever! For this edition.

Eve's beside herself because she's got more sticking up to do with the cards. But honestly, they are brilliant and they've come from all over the world and we are very, very grateful. It's made me think I should send postcards more often now when I'm in places. Well, I never hear from you from one week's end to the next. That's not true. I pop up almost daily. Yeah, that's true. Okay. Pigeons. Oh, pigeons. Thank you, Hivemind.

So yesterday I did ask whether anyone knew whether it was true, in fact, that pigeons were the feathered spies of the Second World War, having been told this on a recent date, and suspected that... I just wondered if he was pulling my leg, but apparently not. It's just my ignorance because you fabulous listeners have so many stories about pigeons and their uses in the war. Have you begun to think differently about this? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

OK, no, hasn't changed around at all. Like I was I mean, he's very knowledgeable about many, many things, which would surprise you if you met him. I mean, I don't mean that he comes across. God, I'm just digging a hole. He's not a listener. So it's fine. He just he's quite cool. cool and edgy and you wouldn't necessarily think he knew so much about string theory and physics or pigeons of the world wars. Just saying. But was he the sort of person, I'm going to say man, the sort of man who felt the need to unburden himself of some of his knowledge in the company of a little lady who might appreciate it? Not necessarily. He does like to tell you about things he knows about. But it's conversational. Is it?

Yeah. Anyway, we'll see. You've seen it. So, I'm just going to, there are so many brilliant pigeon emails. I'm just going to pick just a few of them. Thank you Liz, who writes to say, Dear Jane and Jane Jane my father-in-law and his friend supplied pigeons for war work and here is a letter of thanks from the war office we have it framed and it's on my husband's office wall and it's quite

small I'm afraid so I can't actually read what the thank you letter says. Also isn't it cheering that they got a letter of thanks? I know! Yeah and that they've kept it. I think keeping that sort of thing is really I wish I'd done more of that. I know. Yeah. And that they've kept it. I think keeping that sort of thing is really, I wish I'd done more of that over the years. I have got some things. I've got the letter from Boris Johnson telling us not to go out. Is that just you and Faye? It's just me and Faye. Will you two keep of the streets? And the airwaves. Shut up! No, every single household got one of these things. Did you really get a personal letter? Everyone did. I don't know, I was in America. Oh yeah, okay, now every single address in the country got a formal letter signed by

then Prime Minister Boris Johnson saying, can you not go out please? Wow, I didn't know that. And I kept it and I've got it in a drawer and I do look at it occasionally and just think, that actually happened. Right. Just in time. I'm going to go and you briefly to time capsule to bury in the garden. I'm going to have one of those. Claire writes to say, hello Fee and Jane M. Second World War pigeons have actually been getting a better press recently.

See the Super Gordon Carrera's book, The Secret Pigeon Service, and apparently he's also done a podcast about it. Yes. Another listener has written in saying 16,000 pigeons were sent out mainly on military intelligence and fact-finding missions across Europe. In reality, says Claire, the pigeons were the couriers. It took courageous human resistors to supply the intelligence. Nevertheless, 32 returning pigeons were awarded the Dickens Medal, a sort of avian and other animal Victoria Cross, for their courage in the field, flying through artillery fire etc. Some pigeons also triggered the return of, sorry, the rescue of downed aircrew, sent back news from D-Day etc. One was awarded

the French Croix de Guerre. I love this, this is amazing, who knew? Where do you think pigeons would pin their crosses? On their poffed up up chests when they're on parade in their uniform. Absolutely every reason to be pleased with themselves. Arguably, says Claire, some of Britain's female special agents have received less attention than the birds. Women were not awarded British military honours, but only their civil equivalents, whatever their achievements. I mean, understandably. Claire says, I hope you go for a third date Jane just to set the chap straight. Well I might do that Claire if he ever responds to a text message. Wouldn't it be quite cool though to say to him oh by the way I mentioned this on this podcast

that I sometimes do. Oh I mean he's not the sort to be intimidated. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. OK. He's got some medals of his own, that one. Oh, yeah. Dear Jane and Jane, last pigeon email for now. Dear Jane and Jane, following on from Jane M's question regarding hero pigeons in the war, I'm sure lots have written in to say, yes, they were very much a thing. It reminded me and this is such a lovely email.

It reminded me of looking after a dementia client a few years ago while doing some care work. Her recent memory was very poor but her distant memory was great. One day while sitting at the side of the river watching the ducks and birds she announced out of the blue that she used to make pigeon parachutes. She often got confused but I encouraged her to tell me more. She said she made small parachutes for crates that would hold a pigeon. She was a dressmaker, so I guess it made some sort of sense. I humoured her, never thinking for a minute that it was true, although she did give a lot of detail. Later that day, once home, her story was very much on my mind,

so I decided to look it up. And of course it was true. The boxes with pigeon and parachute were dropped to our troops behind enemy lines. The pigeons were then given a message and they would fly back to the UK and deliver the message. Lots did it many times and were recognised as heroes. Regards from your regular correspondent, Philippa. I think that's just such a wonderful anecdote. Isn't it beautiful? It's absolutely amazing. And isn't it sad that women with, people with memories like that, they are, let's be honest, they are leaving us. We know that they're dying out, the people with real memories. Memories of Second World War.

I know. And the details. I'm sure I've told you this before because I am nothing if not repetitive, but one of my favourite interviews I've ever done was with a pilot who used to fly fires and hurricanes in the Battle of Britain. And I went to interview him at his house and he put on his squadron tie and he had his little sidebands and put his flagpole up and he told me the story about dogfights with the Germans and then they'd go and drive their sports cars with their girlfriends and because petrol was rationed, they bought a petrol station just so they could drive their sports cars. I'm glad.

He was in a very fast squadron, apparently. But I just, I love the fact that, you know, sort of the light in the dark of fighting the Germans in a dog fight and then feeling quite excited by it. Yeah, yeah. How we should take the ladies out in a sports car. I just, I don't want people to not hear those anecdotes first hand. I don't want them to not hear them as well. I mean, I really, it's interesting because my mum and dad are still alive

and can remember World War II, but only from the perspective of very young children. So they both say that they didn't feel fear. They were just too young. Yeah. And so VE Day, my mum definitely remembers going to a bonfire. My dad, my mum was always shouting at him for not being able to remember. He just doesn't remember VE Day. Don't know why. Mum definitely does. How old were they?

She would have been 11 when the war ended. And dad was about the same age actually. Nearly 12 maybe. So yeah, I think it's the memories of people like the chap you spoke to who actually did it. And my parents don't have negative memories at all. They may just have been incredibly fortunate, I think they were. But I'm also really conscious that as we mark VE Day, I remember doing an item, must have been on Women's Day, I can't remember, about mass observation around VE Day, you know those diaries that people kept. And of course loads of people on VE Day were not in the mood to celebrate because their sons had been killed or they'd lost a husband. And the idea that everyone else was everyone in the country was Kaleid and having a fantastic time. It's just not true.

Or they were probably still away. Or still away, yeah. Or actually dreading the return of someone who they'd learned to live without. I mean all these kind of... Or replaced. Yeah, or indeed replaced. Yes. So all these quite sort of nuanced and complicated areas of World War II are fascinating, but you're right, it's those people who actually fought and suffered horrifically who have already gone and whose first-hand testimony we don't have anymore. Yeah, and we were talking the other day about the sort of range of things, the amazing experiences

we've been fortunate enough to have as journalists and I just, of all the interviews I've ever done, I just feel so fortunate to have met that man and been to his house and heard his stories and his memories and we took him to Tangmere Air Base where they used to take off from and look at planes with him and it was just, I just feel so privileged to have had that time with him. Yeah, well it is a privilege. Yeah. Yeah.

We'd love to hear your family stories and if you have somebody still in your life who is someone who fought or was married to somebody who fought or has a proper VE Day story because we're heading towards that anniversary aren't we on the May the 7th? I beg your pardon? May the 8th? Yes you're quite on God. I mean I was only, I'm only 60 so I can't be expected to know these things. May the 8th, sorry. Thank you very much. Now, keeping a man's name after divorce. Now, as ever, you have not let us down. Some good anecdotage. It's difficult here because I don't want to mention anybody by name, which is a bit difficult. Hi Jane, Jane and Eve. You asked if anybody had kept his surname after divorce, divorce and why.

This is from anonymous. He says, now my husband's ex-husband surname is apparently in the Doomsday book. It is quite an unusual name, I'll say that. And there is or was some kind of landed gentry in County Cork connected to it. So my ex, I love this, being a sorry-born Cambridge graduate up himself. Yep, never thought. Holds the name in great esteem. So I've kept it just to annoy him. That's quite funny.

Also, I'm too lazy to go through all the paperwork. It's my business name and when we were divorcing, my daughters were still at school so I thought it would be easier for them to have parents with the same name. And finally, I should say that my maiden name is Fell. When thinking up my name, I think my parents always said to themselves Judith Ann Fell, but never thought about the clash of TH and F, which makes it really rather difficult to say. There we are. Thank you, anonymous. I've slightly given you away now, haven't I? It's your husband's surname we haven't mentioned. So I hope that's all right

with you. Can't think of two better reasons than laziness and annoying someone. Perfect justification. I think pettiness is fine. Underrated. Yeah. Dear Allfair with Jane and Fee, long time listener, first time emailer, I was inspired to write from the discussions around the power of postcards and handwritten mail.

This is a lovely email. My sister Kate and I have shared a tradition of creating handmade greetings cards for each other and our close family throughout our entire lives. Now in our late 20s and early 30s our creativity is starting to run dry and the inspiration for painting tasteful pictures is wearing thin. Over time this tradition has transformed into collages featuring our favourite female icons, serving as a fun and empowering way to propel each other into the next year of our lives. Look at you sitting back, clapping it up. Kate's birthday is on Thursday, April the 17th.

Happy birthday, Kate! Happy birthday. And what better way to kick off her 33rd year than with drum roll. What's happened? 18 Jane Garvey's singing Happy Birthday in perfect harmony. See photo attached.

Look at that little photo. It's actually really genuinely horrifying. Fiona says it's probably my best creation yet and reminder that my three year fine art degree wasn't wasted. And of course Claire Balding makes an appearance on every single occasion without fail, like real life. Though we both lead busy city lives, me in London and Kate in Berlin, the physical distance between us can be tough, but it's little things like this that keep us connected, injecting light, love and humour into what often feels like a dark and turbulent world. Watch out, Fee, you'll most certainly be next, says Fiona.

Fiona, can I just say, that picture of 18 year-old Jane Garvey singing Happy Birthday is one of the best things I've ever seen. Really quite frightening. And I just hope the birthday is good because it's actually today. So we're right on time. I just want to mention this. Yesterday there was a Supreme Court ruling in the UK about, well, about, gosh, I mean, actually trying to explain what it was about. It seems it's both challenging and slightly preposterous. So the ruling from the Supreme Court is that trans women are not women, biological, born

women are women. Is that right? Because I don't want to cause offense. That is what the Supreme Court ruling was. Yeah. Okay. And there will be implications here for some women only spaces. I think there might be issues for the NHS, certainly for females of women's sports, changing rooms, toilets, that sort of thing. So I just want to, I mean, it's an issue that I'm really, I don't know about you, Jane, I think it's occupied an enormous amount of space

in our national life, it seems, for quite some time, when actually the numbers of people involved are pretty small and I still believe that about 90% of the population don't take any interest in it at all and are slightly confused by what everybody else is discussing, if they even know they're discussing it? Yes, I couldn't put it by myself. The numbers of people who had effects are not commensurate with the time and attention and the noise that's been involved. And the hatred. Well, it's extraordinary that it's sort of become the hill that some people die on. It's brought down political careers. It's become this lightning rod, which I have to say,

when I was living in the US, for a country that in so many ways isn't as progressive as the UK, it felt like a conversation that had been had already and was in a certain place. And obviously, things have been rolled back obviously over the past 15 years, come backwards and forwards. But I was quite surprised when I moved back here in 2021, how divisive a topic it was. Because I hadn't been watching it that closely. It had been allowed to become. Yeah, it had been allowed to become. And I think you're right, the numbers involved are quite small.

I do think it's important to say for the people who obviously it does affect very directly, you know, for people who have felt that they've lived their whole lives in the wrong body and have gone through gender confirmation surgery and have got this gender recognition certificate. Obviously, this announcement, pronouncement is going to be very difficult. But it shouldn't be. This ruling is about institutions and how institutions can now have some clarity and develop actual policy about it. And I do think that's something that can only be a good thing to have clarity. Well, let's hope it does bring about clarity. I think you're absolutely right, 100% trans people should be left alone to live their lives

and should in no way be threatened by anybody, absolutely. And I do think it's important the ruling said that they are still protected from discrimination and persecution. As they should be. I think it was very important that they made that very clear. It's interesting, you're absolutely right, Lord Hodge was the name of the judge who made that and he was very careful to say all these things, but already people have forgotten that part of what he said and they focused on just the first thing he said. So yeah, lots of complications here.

But again, if it is something you feel strongly about, Jane and Fiat Times. Radio. I know lots of people do, by the way, feel incredibly strongly about it. This is from an email who says, I'm a trans man. I've been using the gents for many years. Now, I have sometimes felt a little self-conscious, but never unsafe. I like this for your information. It's very wry. I like this email. It's great email, thank you. For your information, behind the closed door of the men's facilities,

men don't look at one another or talk. They can make a lot of grunting noises and don't always wash their hands. The loos can smell pretty grim and holding your breath is a must. It always amazes me that no one talks about this. It's like a big secret, a lot worse than you think. It's actually a national schedule. Thank you. They go on to say, I can now use the women's toilets again as my biological sex is a protected characteristic,

which is what you said. I realized my full and luscious beard will no doubt cause some eyebrows to be raised but none I suspect as gloriously bushy as mine. For sure there'll be questions asked but I can confidently state I am a biological woman and therefore the toilet is a protected space for me as well. Somewhere I can sit and hide for a while when the madness of our world becomes too overwhelming by half. Well so say all of us. Okay, I'm really interested in that and thank you for

sending it. And I mean, it is interesting, isn't it? Would I as a user of women's facilities say anything if I saw a trans man with a beard in the space? I don't know. It's never happened. You're British so you'd... the idea of saying anything to anyone. Right, I mean it's that Victoria Wood sketch, was it Victoria Wood who said she was on a train and there were a couple having sex and nobody said a word and then afterwards one of them lit up and someone said right that's it you are not allowed to smoke. I think it was her and I think that was the that was the gag absolutely spot-on I could be wrong and this made me laugh out loud this morning where I say thank you Rhea writes to say I was at the chiropractor this morning and had been

listening to yesterday's podcast walking there title of that episode was giant penis whilst on the couch the chiropractor started laughing and said I wasn't expecting to see that on someone's eye watch. I then realised the title of the podcast was on the face of my watch, Giant Penis. I had to explain the context and introduce an Australian chiropractor to your podcast. Thank you Maria, whatever it takes. Yes, tell us why you were at the chiropractor.

What is a chiropr last night and a conversation broke out which was really astonishing. It was not particularly quiet tube train either but I was sitting down. The lady next to me sort of gave me a little poke and said could I ask you some questions about podcasting. That's fair enough. And I always like I say if you see me and you recognise me that's and you want to talk about something appertaining to my, we might loosely call my line of work, I'm here for it. I really like talking to people. So we had a lovely chat and then the young woman opposite said, she had headphones on and she took them off and said are you talking about podcasts? And I

said yeah we are. She said oh I'm doing an MA in podcasts. Brilliant. I know. So we ended up, the three of us. She's coming in on work experience? No she was actually on her way to a 10-hour shift in a pub. I felt quite sorry for her. I know. So we ended up, the three of us... Just coming in on work experience? No, she was actually on her way to a 10-hour shift in a pub. I felt quite sorry for her. I knew she loves to do podcasting. She was a very young woman, but we had a really nice time. So sometimes public transport, even in London, can surprise you. And it's just, I was very conscious of the three of us talking though when nobody else...

I love that you held a casual podcasting, you know, lecture, workshop, master class. I wouldn't call it that. I really wouldn't. Just for three stops. I just wanted to mention this email from Anonymous because you've been talking this week, we both have, about getting into journalism and actually that's what reminded me after that conversation on the Tube last night. Anonymous says, I was a student journalist during my time in York and I really loved it. I was desperately keen on getting into the profession, did lots of work experience,

including at your place of work, but I was ultimately put off by what seemed like the inaccessibility. It seemed young graduates had no option but to work unpaid in some cases for years on end with uncertain prospects of a permanent position. This just seemed to me to be impossible unless you lived in London already. Anonymous by the way, Jane, suggests that you do call yourself Jane von

Malkerins because if Mohammed Al Fayed can get away with adding the owl then there's no reason why you can't stick a von in. But to Anonymous, that's a good point isn't it? Is it still true? I think unfortunately it's become more true than when I came into journalism I think because living in London which is where you know most of the media is based or I mean there is regional media but it's become it's shrunk so much. It's really expensive to live here and either to do unpaid work experience or low paid you know sort of entry level jobs it's really expensive to live here and either to do unpaid work experience or low paid you know sort of entry-level jobs it's really hard yeah

and I would say that I think yeah the intake is of certainly more so than when I started is of people who can either live with their parents or you know be in some way other ways sort of supported or helped certainly in the early years and that is a problem because obviously you know you don't have a diverse funnel coming in and then it means that that not very diverse you know pipeline just continues. Yeah it is a problem because it becomes that you just have the same people in this industry. And the same people with the same sorts of life stories and therefore not asking the questions that need to be asked by people who haven't had the same kind of life chances and experiences and challenging backgrounds. Yeah, and that obviously, yeah, I mean, I think it's really significant.

I'm sure that's not just a problem for our industry. I'm sure it's a problem for many other industries. Yeah, that are based, you know, in large metropolitan areas and not very well paid at the beginning. Quick email from Fiona hello James Jane Garvey G20 is shite okay why would they set in Cape Town and have awful fake South African accents just for one thumbs down and any plot Neil Poynter from me but she does say on a happier note fantastic interview with John Stock. Thumbs down and any plot, Neil Poirot from me. But she does say on a happier note, fantastic interview with John Stock. Yes, thank you. And John Stock was brilliant and he was on earlier in the week talking about his book, The Sleep Room. Yeah, OK, G20 is, it is terrible. But I suppose in a way, what it does is, it allows me to channel my fantasies about somebody other than Donald Trump being the American president,

because in G20 the president's Viola Davis and by the way if you ever want a good that's a good book her autobiography yeah that's a really good book and it's read beautifully by her so if you want an audiobook it's a solid recommendation she's brilliant and yes I don't don't take all of my recommendations as like solid and worth pursuing okay. We've had some more emails about weight loss drugs and jabs. I sort of elided that one, weight loss jabs, weight loss drugs or jabs. I sort of liked frankly you were on drugs there, Jane. This comes from, I'm not sure if we can read out the name. We'll just leave it anonymous for now, just in case.

One of our listeners says, dear Jane V, Jane and Eve, I'd like to add an alternative perspective for you and your listeners. This listener goes on to detail a very restrictive diet as a child and a history of therapy, hypnosis, tablets, diets, slimming clubs and losing and gaining the same £60 over and over again throughout her life and saying the physical and mental health problems that it caused were enormous and she says it was never ending, it consumed my every thought. In 2023, she decided to become a can't, to follow the strict carnivore eating and she said she stuck to it religiously, physical and mental health improved

but then life got in the way, a marriage breakup, a dog died, I'm very sorry to hear both of those things. She went back to binging to cope, but she did believe by that point that her issues with food were chemical and not emotional and didn't have a clue how to sort it out. But she went down a rabbit hole and started to investigate GLP-1 and tizeptotide, tizeptotide, which is monjaro basically, hormone replacement therapies. In November 24 she says, I sourced these hormones from an online doctor and since then nothing short of a miracle has occurred. She says, for the first time in 60 years I'm being given the hormones that my body has desperately needed since I was a little girl. A lifetime of disordered eating has created this situation in my body and millions of us are for the first time experiencing what it feels like to be normal. I'm losing weight, yes, slowly and that's a glorious

side effect but that's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing it to heal my body and allow it to function as it should have been functioning for all of these years. She says for the first time in 60 years I've got respite from the never-ending food noise as my body urged me to overeat to regulate my hormones. Now my hormones are reaching a stage of being balanced and my body and my mind are working as they should. So, says our listener, I'm not a fan of this being labelled as a weight loss drug. For me this is far more than about weight loss. This is about giving people back their lives and their sanity. And this is really interesting. As for cost, says our listener, I pay 200 pounds a month. I'm on a state pension of a thousand pounds a month with no additional funds. So it's a huge chunk out of my income, but I think it's worth it.

It's not only saving my life. It's also giving me my life back. I've just had my 70th birthday and for the first time I feel truly hopeful about life. Well, you can't argue with the that sentiment at the end. PS, the one at the right at the end says, dimple bees and ass. Even better. No, no, no, because not everybody thinks that. It's fascinating. That is.

So we know so little about how these things all work so far. That's really interesting that these hormones... The hormones in what? In the monjaro? Well, I think what our listener is saying is that she sources hormones separately. It's not that monjaro is one of these hormones. That's tiseptitide. I'm not sure I'm saying that right. Tiseptitide and GLP-1, which is the one in some of the others, that these are hormones and that's how they work is they stop you feeling hungry.

One of them, I know one of them does effects greelin I think, which is the thing that makes you feel hungry. It sounds like gremlin basically. A food gremlin. But what this listener is saying is that it's not about the weight, it's about the balance of your hormones and that it was affecting her in so many ways and one of them was eating. It's fascinating. Thank you so much for all of your very very interesting emails and very honest emails about this. Yes they have been really honest and there's been a range of opinion which I also really appreciate and what's been so

interesting this week Jane is this is day four and we've been relatively smart free. I'm sorry, do you feel like I've let you down? No you haven't, I think you've improved and I'm going to give you a gold star. Thank you. She patronised. I should say we've got two very serious emails here about surnames and divorce and keeping them and everything else. I just wanted to basically thank the people for writing in and I'll try to do them justice relatively briskly. I held onto my married name for several reasons. Despite being a fiercely independent professional young woman trying to make my mark in the male dominated and misogynist corporate world, I was only too happy to relinquish my unmarried name and I really didn't want to reclaim it after my marriage ended. The main reason is I wanted to disassociate myself from my family

name as I'd experienced sexual and mental abuse as a child. As a result, I absolutely hated my surname, which was quite unusual. You know, I've led such a fortunate life that had never even occurred to me as a reason to change your name. So look, I'm sorry that happened to you. And I do not blame you one iota for keeping the name. But there was another very serious one from another anonymous listener. I'm 49, mother of four, married, it turns out, to a high profile-ish man who spiralled totally out of control. I took his relatively unique, if you can have a relatively unique name, held it for almost 20 years. It didn't occur to me not to. When his serious misdeeds were splashed all over the papers, and I do

mean all over, I battled on with the name thinking it's the name of my children and I haven't done anything wrong. However, it became intolerable so I went back to my maiden name and the process of changing names was torturous. We still aren't yet divorced despite my efforts. I cannot have my well-intentioned hard-working future in any way tied with his dissolution. One of the staggering things is that I had to get his permission to change my name because we are still married. That's incredible.

Wow. Because everything is available forever on the internet and searching names is so very commonplace, I really had no choice in changing it back. My children still have his name and that pains me. The name is unmistakable if searched and they are bystanders in a terrible story of betrayal and hubris, but they must make this decision for themselves.

Thank you. And as we say, everything's out there and you can trust us not to mention your name or always dance around some of the facts if it's gonna get you into any trouble. So you're here next week. I'm here next week. You're not here next week.

No, I shall be sunbathing on the easy grass at home. Oh, staying in town, having a staycation. Having a staycation, might sit in my duffle coat on the east grass if the weather doesn't allow. Pin your ears back now please. Have you heard about the sodium valproate scandal? Perhaps you haven't and really the truth is we should all know about it. Sodium valproate is a drug prescribed to people with epilepsy and it is very effective, but it was given to women for decades without proper warnings and many went on to give birth

to children with autism, learning difficulties and physical disabilities. Some are now, some of the children that is, are now in their 20s or 30s and they will need lifelong care and their parents are obviously getting older. The health editor of the Sunday Times, Sean Linton, has been writing about the impact of sodium valproate for some time and he's met some of the families involved. The then patient safety minister, Nadine Dorries, did apologise to them in 2020 but there was no offer of compensation. Sean told me who is given sodium valproate? Yeah, so sodium valproate is primarily a drug used to treat epilepsy.

It's a very good drug for treating epilepsy. Epilepsy is a dangerous condition. People can have serious consequences from having epileptic fits, including dying. So in that sense, it's an important drug. It's also used in mental health patients for treating bipolar and other conditions as well. So it does have a number of uses which are quite important. And it is still being used in this country. It is, I think because of those reasons and because it's so effective when it's used in the right people, and I emphasize that,

that's why it's still being used and still prescribed today. But what do we now know about its impact on unborn children? So the issue with sodium valproate is that it's a teratogenic drug. What that means is that it affects the unborn foetus in the womb and the drug is able to attack that fetus effectively when the mother takes it. And so sodium valproate shouldn't be prescribed to women who are pregnant. And that's the key point. And we've learned this over recent years that in fact, thousands of women were given this drug from the early 1970s.

And the point with sodium valproate and the reason why this is such an awful scandal is because the concerns about the drug and its effects on unborn babies was known about at the time this drug was licensed and approved and in fact the committee for the safety of medicines that made those decisions, discussed whether or not to share risks with mothers and decided they didn't want to because they didn't want to cause, quotes, fruitless anxiety among women. And I think that was a crucial decision that was made

that effectively meant women were not told about potential risks. And this carried on for decades. And so for decades you've had women given this drug, told it was safe, many women asked their doctors, is it okay to take sodium valproate? And they were told it was. And unbeknownst to them, they were damaging their own children. This is, it is a scandal, as you say.

And yet, if you were to go out onto the streets of Britain today and ask the average person have you heard about the sodium varproate scandal? They wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about. Now why is that? Yeah it's something that I've really wrestled with on this story actually because you know I've been a health journalist for 15 years now specifically looking at these kinds of stories. And I'll admit, even I up until a few years ago, it had passed me by somehow. And what's really interesting is when you actually do a check and you examine stories that have been written about this drug, there have been lots of stories in all sorts of newspapers. But I think there's a couple of things I would say. I think the emphasis is often on the sort of sad case study story, you know, poor family X etc, and

what it hasn't done is it hasn't cut through to the public as a kind of a disaster that it is. You know, we have a generation of children who've been left disabled by this drug and I think it's just not quite penetrated the public's perception that this was a regulatory failure, a failure of the state towards these women. And that just hasn't quite landed. And it's quite it's been surprising to me. And in a way, I'm you know, it's why it was important that the Sunday Times picked this up. And we did a really big job of it in 2022,

really highlighted all of the systemic issues around sodium valproate rather than just doing the kind of typical sad case study story. We had that of course because you have to humanise these stories but we did also get into exactly what was being said in the 1970s, you know, what decisions were made, what decisions were made. Who were these people making these decisions? It was, I mean, to be blunt about it, it was largely men, wasn't it? It was, unfortunately, and I think there's an element of this story which is about the paternalistic nature of medicine and how that's changed over time, you know, I think patients are beginning to demand more information and more, you know, the

informed consent to procedures and drugs. And I think, you go back to the 1970s, you know, those decisions were made of their time. But I think you look at some of the comments in the minutes of those meetings where, as I said before, fruitless anxiety, they were sort of dismissive of these risks. Well, the patting little ladies on the head, basically. Well, exactly. And I think the other crucial point to make about this is that committee was set up in the wake of another big drug scandal that your listeners will remember, Thalidomide.

And this decision on sodium valproate was actually made in almost at the same time as the lidamide was filling the pages and headlines. And I find it staggering that this decision was made at that point. And this committee then went even further in their mistakes because knowing that there was a risk, what they then didn't do was to suggest, well, if that risk is true, maybe we should study these children and the outcomes of these families and see if there is a problem. They never commissioned that study. And in fact, this is a problem today with other medicines that might affect babies and children. We're not carrying out those kinds of detailed studies to understand if they're having a long term

impact on children. Because the problem is the doctor who prescribes the drug initially won't be the doctor who sees the baby in years to come. Well, this is it. This is quite complicated this, but there's a lack of joined up thinking in medicine, I guess. And the person who prescribed the drug originally would be what? A neurologist? Yes, and then possibly carried on by a GP, yes. Yeah, but then would the same GP see the children who resulted from that pregnancy? Possibly, but not necessarily. Well exactly, I mean some of the children we've spoken to, you know, they have speech and language problems for example,

they have behavioural issues, autism and learning disabilities, and they might be referred by that GP to a different specialism altogether, so nobody connects the dots and what's interesting is that now that we know much more about valparate there are there is a definite diagnosis of fetal valparate spectrum disorder that's a recognized condition caused by this drug to unborn children. The numbers of doctors who are able to really diagnose that is quite small. So it's a very specialist area and the NHS has just recently this year opened up some new pilot centres where children affected by valparite can be seen and can be assessed and etc. But of course my concern is that we should have avoided this happening in the first place

and I think we've got to take a look at what happened and try and figure out a way to prevent it happening again. But what we are left with at the moment is this generation of children who've been disabled as I said and the Sunday Times view is very clear that the state failed these families, it wasn't their fault, it wasn't the mother's fault, they were told often that this drug was safe. The state knew that there were risks. It failed demonstrably. It owes these families compensation. It owes them financial redress. The reason for that is not just so they can have a pay packet and enjoy a holiday. What we're talking about here is getting care that these children need.

So we need to be providing for the long-term care that they will need when their parents aren't around. I mean that's the crucial point, their parents are getting older and won't always be around. Do we really want a generation of these kids locked up in institutions because no one thought to set up care plans for them and look after them and that's what I'm worried about. Yeah I'm not surprised and I think people will be horrified by that prospect. Do we know exactly how many children may have been affected and they are now of course in some cases in their 20s aren't they and older? Older I think, I've met some that are in their 30s as well so and possibly even older than

that. So in terms of numbers there are some statistical estimates that suggest as many as 20,000 babies may have been harmed. I think we can bring that number down in terms of the numbers that might actually need and come forward for financial compensation. So it ranges anywhere from, you know, 3 or 4,000, 7,000, somewhere in that order I would... But I'm purely guesstimating based on... But it's more than thalidomide affected. Oh, it's a lot more than thalidomide. I mean, people don't realise that thalidomide... So the one thing to say, thalidomide probably often kill babies before they were born,

and I think that's important to emphasise. So the true scale of thalidomide in some ways is unknown. But in terms of the babies that were born severely disabled, those were measured in hundreds, you know, five, six hundred. There are babies born from valpoate that have physical deformities, like the lidamide, but the extent of valpoate damage is learning disabilities, autism, all those kinds of behaviour of... on a real spectrum of issues. And it's very difficult for these families, I mean, anyone listening who knows somebody with an autistic child or a child with a learning disability,

the parents are their main carers, and these children cannot live independently, and the entire family's future has been stolen by this drug. And these families had already been impacted by epilepsy, so life would not have been easy before all this. Absolutely, yeah, definitely. And I've met many of these families and I'm struck by the emotion that they all still have.

They all still carry a guilt that the mothers will say it was me that took this tablet. You know, and I think that's awful that they carry around this guilt because it isn't their fault. This was a state failure. That's the thing I've been saying for years now. Well, in fairness to the state, there was the Cumberledge review. I think she'd been a Health Minister, hadn't she? Baroness Cumberledge. That was in 2020 and I suppose, I remember interviewing her about it, I assumed compensation would be on the way for victims of sodium valproate. What's happened? Yeah well the problem with Jane is that we we see this all the time don't we with governments,

they acknowledge something, they say lessons will be learned etc and then nothing happens and so with the Cumberledge review the government were very clear there would not be redress. They said no to that. And I got involved in 2022 with some of the families. We did our investigation for the Sunday Times. We did a front page news story and a double page spread inside, really forensically going over all of this. And we also publicly called for the government to reconsider. I'm pleased to say that we were able to push the government to a new position. So they'd previously said no to redress, then they said we'll think about it, we'll consider it. And so they commissioned another report by the new patient safety commissioner, Henrietta Hughes,

to look at whether or not, how would a redress scheme work? How might we do this? She produced that report over a year ago. Now, I know we've had changes in government, you know, under the Tories, they seem to change every few months. So there is always that problem. But I think that report's now been sitting on the desks of ministers in the Department for Health for quite a long time. And all they keep saying is, we'll respond at the earliest opportunity. And personally, I think, you know, it's becoming a bit of a insult to these families that the government can't even give them a sense

of where they're going. I think, you know, West Street and the Health Secretary has a responsibility to do the right thing by these families. But we know that, in fact, I did an interview a couple of weeks ago about the victims of the infected blood scandal. They're still waiting. Many of them are. Well, I mean, it is a problem, isn't it? We live in a country that seems to be beset with huge state failures that keep cropping up and people deserve compensation for that. And I think it shouldn't be a competition between scandals as who gets justice. But I would say, all I would say to Wes Streeting if he was listening, go and meet some of these families, see how their lives have been completely ruined

by this drug and tell me they don't deserve some justice. That's Sean Linton, a really impressive journalist and a great speaker on what is a really important issue. He is the health editor of the Sunday Times. If you have personal experience of sodium valproate, please do email the podcast, we'd really appreciate it. Thank you so much and have a lovely Easter break. It is Jane and Fee at Times.Radio

and thank you, Jane, for all your company this week. Thank you for having me. And for my kittens. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app.

Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.