Off Menu with Ed Gamble and James Acaster - Ep 29: Jay Rayner

Episode Date: September 4, 2019

Restaurant expert Jay Rayner – The Observer’s food critic, Masterchef judge and author of ‘My Last Supper’ – has a table booked this week. Ed has strong opinions about Jay's dessert, James doesn’t understand jokes and Jay suggests he invented the podcast.Recorded and edited by Ben Williams for Plosive Productions.Artwork by Paul Gilbey (photography and design) and Amy Browne (illustrations).Footsteps by Lauren.Jay Rayner’s new book ‘My Last Supper’ is out this week. Buy the book here.Jay is also taking ‘My Last Supper’ on tour. Buy tickets on his website jayrayner.co.uk.Listen to Jay's podcast, ‘Out to Lunch with Jay Rayner’, here.Follow Off Menu on Twitter and Instagram: @offmenuofficial.And go to our website www.offmenupodcast.co.uk for a list of restaurants recommended on the show.Ed Gamble is on tour, including a date at the Shepherd's Bush Empire. See his website for full details.James Acaster is on tour. See his website for full details.Watch Ed and James's YouTube series 'Just Puddings'. Watch here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, listeners of the Off Menu podcast. It is Ed Gamble here from the Off Menu podcast. I have a very exciting announcement. I have written my first ever book. I am absolutely over the moon to announce this. I'm very, very proud of it. Of course, what else could I write a book about? But food. My book is all about food. My life in food. How greedy I am. What a greedy little boy I was. What a greedy adult I am. I think it's very funny. I'm very proud of it. The book is called Glutton, the multi-course life of a very greedy boy. And it's coming out this October, but it is available to pre-order now, wherever you pre-order books from. And if you like my signature, I've done some signed copies,

which are exclusively available from Waterstones. But go and pre-order your copy of Glutton, the multi-course life of a very greedy boy, now. Please? Excuse me, could you bring me another spoon? This one's a little bit dirty. Welcome to the Off Menu podcast. Hello, Ed. Hello. Did you like that one? I did like that one a lot. Yeah, I thought it was very good. Be honest, I'm kind of running out of them. I don't think you can tell. We're not that many podcasts in, really. You cannot tell it. Because this is, I don't know, people know we're doing 1,000 episodes of this. That's the aim, isn't it? 1,000 episodes. Benito's

giving us a thumbs up. Yeah, but like, I mean, you just got to start. Every time you go out for meals and stuff, you got to start remembering everything you hear. Like, I'm all down, and you've got to have them ready to go. Well, anyway, welcome to the Off Menu podcast. This broadly what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Oh, I'm a gamble, and that is... James A. Caster, Ed is wearing a T-shirt that says Ham on it. I am. You know why? You love food? I love ham. I love food. And I love this T-shirt. The pink T-shirt with dark pink letters. There's ham. There's ham.

Very good. James, do you want to just remind everyone what the Off Menu podcast is? I don't think we now need to do it. Sure. But just in case there are any new listeners who are here off the fact, our brilliant guest, Jay Rainer, is on this week. Maybe we've brought some new listeners. So maybe you want to give people a quick idea of what we're going to be doing, mate. We'll be asking Jay what his favourite ever starter main course dessert side and drink is. It's a dream meal in a dream restaurant. And I am a genie. Yeah, James is a genie. Jay Rainer, of course, is the food critic for The Observer. You may have seen him on shows like Masterchef. He's often one of those critics who goes in towards the end of the competition.

The final table. And goes like, oh, gravy and all of that. Yeah. That's one of his catchphrases. I hope he doesn't mind me saying that. He's a brilliant guest. He did the final table. He did the final table, yeah, which is a Netflix cooking competition show that we both enjoy. Yeah, really over the top. Yeah. Big gladiators, music and stuff like that. And they've all got it. Every episode is a different country and they have to make cuisine from that country. And they're all in pairs, all the chefs are. Yeah. And it's so ridiculous. I love it. If they ever did a comedian's final table, would you go on there with me?

Yes, I would. We would both go on it. But, you know, I hope you'll be okay with me adding ice cream to everything. Trying to sneak it in every single time. James, you absolutely would do that. Unless, of course, it was the secret ingredient that they said we weren't allowed to use. Oh, yes. Because that's something we do on this podcast, where if a guest mentions a certain ingredient in their dream meal, then they get kicked out of the restaurant. No ifs, no buts, no coconuts. Bye-bye. And it doesn't have to be coconuts. It's not been coconuts yet. No, no, it's not been coconuts. Which is interesting because a lot of people don't like coconuts. Well, one week we should have no ifs, no buts, no coconuts. Yeah, one week it

will be coconuts. But it's not this week. This week, the secret ingredient is hairy crackling. I like crackling. Yep. I do not like it when it's got those little hairs on it. No way. The stubble or even the big curly hairs. No, I like a clean shaven crackling. Yep. I do not. Also, I don't like pork scratchings when they're soggy. When they're soggy? Yeah, when you get a soggy one. Yeah, horrible. And occasionally, it's like Russian roulette sometimes with scratching. So, you just pop them in and then occasionally a little soggy one. And then you're reminded about what it is and you're just eating skin. Yeah, really not nice. Really takes you out of the moment. But crackling, which I guess is, it's the same as pork scratchings, isn't it?

Yeah, just little bits of crackling. But like, yeah, hairy crackling. Hairy crackling. I mean, it feels unlikely. If he says crackling, we have to push him on. Yeah, do you want hair on that? Yeah, how do you feel about him? And if he's not, if he goes, yeah, I love it. Well, maybe you'll love the door. Oh, and you should note that we're recording at Jay's publishers because we're talking about his new book. And it is a big, big old echoey room. So, that's why perhaps the sound quality isn't quite what we're used to. Oh, what's that? It's our big pile of free stuff that we have here. That's James rubbing his legs together. It's your legs, you little cricket boy. We often get sent little free samples of things

from various food and drink companies. And it's a beer, it's a beery week this week. Oh, man, a big old beer week. Wild beer co. What? What? Which is perfect for us, I think, because we love a beer and we're kind of wild. We are kind of wild, actually. Wild beer co. have sent us some really interesting sounding beers for things like raspberries and pink peppercorns. Pineapples. Pineapples, smoky, spicy beers. Wild yeasts. Wild yeasts. That was my nickname at university. So, we're excited to try those as well. But those aren't the only beer people who've been in contact this week. Have you been to Chiltern? I've never been to the Chilterns.

No? Well, there's a brewery there called the Chiltern Brewery. And they've sent us some beers, haven't they? Yep, they have sent us some beers. We're going to be so pissed. I think it's the only brewery in the Chilterns. Well, I've heard. I wouldn't like to cast aspersions, but as far as I know, they are in the Chilterns. They are in the Chilterns. That's all I know. And they've sent us some free stuff. So, as far as I'm concerned, they are the only brewery in the Chilterns. Yes. If you are a rival brewery in the Chilterns and you want to get mentioned on this podcast, send us some beer. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

But we don't want to be pissed all week, do we? So, luckily, the Real Kombucha Company have sent us some Kombucha. I like Kombucha. Me too, man. We've talked about it on the podcast before, I believe, but I do like it. Look, we've all spent time in LA. We're cool sort of laid-back, cafe gratitude, Kombucha drinking hippies. Exactly. Fermented mushroom drink. Yeah. Is that what it is, fermented mushroom? Yeah, it's like a sort of mushroom. It's like a fungus type thing, right? I do like it. I mean, it's pulling the face, but I like it.

There's one I have when I have in America, which has got like chia seeds in the bottom of it, and the chia seeds are all puffed up and slimy like tadpoles. Yes. So, you get the fermented thing, and then like the slimy bit at the end, and it's really good, actually. Well, you know what? What? That's the worst job I've heard of someone describing something and trying to make it sound nice. But still, I'll give it a go, Ed. Yeah, thank you. So, thank you to the Real Kombucha Company. Thank you to those two breweries. We look forward to tasting those.

If you want to send us some stuff, send us some ice cream, goddammit, some chocolate. Yeah. How many hints do I have to drop? We've had a lot of booze, but we, you know, we would like something to balance it out. I like crisps. I like nuts. I like cheese. If you are a cheese company, if you are a dairy and you want to send me a wheel of cheese, imagine the publicity of me taking delivery of a huge wheel of cheese. My girlfriend has become obsessed this week with getting, I think it's like carbonara that's cooked in the actual wheel of cheese. She's sending me Instagram pictures of it, photos of it, videos. Right. Do that. Send me a wheel of parmesan, and then I'll cook James's girlfriend some carbonara

within it. That's fair enough. Yeah. But here is the off-medu of Jay Rainer. We're here with Jay Rainer. Hello, Jay. Hello, Ed. Thank you so much for coming. Here he is. Welcome, Jay Rainer. Well, that's, that was a better welcome. I mean, yours was a bit under, you know, like you hadn't thought anything through and he'd actually come up with a sound effect. I know, but he's a genie and I can't make those sound effects. Can you not? No. I could try and make them with my mouth. You could, yes. We're other than the bodily parts that James used for that process. Yes. Ten years in genie school, you better do those sounds, Ed. Is it ten years? Do you move through a kind of apprenticeship scheme? Yes, you do. Yeah. So for a while,

I had to ghost another genie and watch what they did and stuff. You had to ghost another genie. Yeah, which is quite a lot. I had to go to ghost school for that. I had to go to ghost school for like ten years. Then gaslighted a genie. Yeah. I feel really bad about this. Yeah. Really subtle manner. Do you mean shadow? Yeah. Because ghosting is ignoring someone, so you can't ignore a genie to become a genie. You're right. I had to shadow a genie. You had to go to a shadow school. I had to go to a shadow school and become a gladiator. Well, it's paid off. All the effort is paid off because that sound you made. You liked the sound? I liked the sound. That went very well and I made the sound earlier. We thought someone was coming in. Someone will come in.

They'll come in with coffee. Oh, yes. Of course, we ordered hot drinks, didn't we? We did. Or we accepted the offer of them. In fact, I can see them through the door. What hot drink have you ordered, Jen? I've ordered coffee with milk. And here it comes. Did you specify what milk you wanted? No, because there is basically milk. Is that your view of things in the world in general? Thank you so much. Well, I mean, I suppose there are... I leave a pause and say, would you like me to hold on for the footsteps to recede? Oh, we like the footsteps. There's a Lauren's footsteps. Lauren is brilliant. She's handling the press on my new book. But we'll get there. Lauren's footsteps.

Make sure you put the credit in there. If you're asking, are there types of milk? Well, they're grades. I mean, they're skimmed, semi-skimmed whole. And if you had to only have one of them for the rest of your life, which one would you choose? Whole. Is that what's in the coffee now, then? Well, I didn't milk the cow, so I can't really judge. I just received the coffee. But should we go with that? Because I think if you say milk, I think if you say milk, I think people are going to put semi-skimmed in there. But that just... I think they're going to put whatever was in the fridge and came to their hands. So if it was... I mean, this is quite a posh publisher. They've probably got a range of milk. Yeah. But if you were then referring to other things

that result from torturing various nuts and grains, they're not milk. No, no, you do not class them as milk, not at all. Do I not class them as milk? I'm just talking lexicographically. Yes. They're not milk. You cannot milk an oat. No. However hard you squeeze it. That's true. You're just going to get something. You're going to get some oat paste. You'll get a discharge, but a discharge is not the same as milk. And you can't put it out in the classroom, really. You can't. Yeah. Oat discharge. Oat. Yeah. Try that. Try that and see how your marketing works.

When you say that whole milk is your favorite of the milks, is that because you... So for me, I'm a semi-skimmed guy, but that's because... I can see that, James. Yes. Thank you. But I was raised on semi-skimmed, as you say, always in the fridge. So I've never changed my mind. But have you made your own decisions? I've gone through the semi-skimmed years. Look, if I'm really honest, there are both in my fridge. So semi-skimmed for tea, but I drink almost entirely coffee, and that has to be whole milk. Right. So it's different notes for different needs. Plus, we have revised our opinion on the health or otherwise of dairy fats, and they are no longer the great killer that we once thought they were.

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fine. Eat all the butter you like. Because I love ice cream. Because look at the health thin I am. Yeah. Well, no one can see. No one can see what any of us look like. You see, I'll try the subtle radio joke. He just kills it dead. I think we can all agree that... I mean, a certainty school. A certainty school is a lot harder to say than you think. A subsidy school. Oh, well done. It's hard. Goddamn, mate.

It's hard. Could you take it as a subsidiary alongside Genie Major? A subsidiary... A subsidiary... Oh, Jesus. A subsidiary subtlety school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I couldn't do that, actually. I think we can all agree that anyone who drinks skim milk is an absolute maniac, though, right? Yeah. Well, it's... I mean, it's kind of... Yeah. Water. Just water. It's slightly opaque water. Yeah, white water. I think it's an insult to the cow.

I think it is as well. You know, the cow has been put through this process. Some people think the process is abusive. I'm not entirely convinced that it's always abusive. But then they go through all that effort. They are milked, their teats are pulled, and then someone goes, no, it's not good enough. We're going to have to just have to take all the interesting stuff out of it and leave you with something which pretends to be milk. Or old cow.

What do you think the highest compliment to the cow is that we do with milk? The best thing we do with milk? The best thing we do is milk. Well, I mean, actually, to be mildly serious for a moment, cheese is like bread and like beer is a way of using surplus that you cannot use instantly. So milk sours very quickly. So what do you do with all your milk production? You come up with cheese.

So a really good old cheese which goes on for years has to be the greatest tribute to the milked cow there is. Yeah. I think cheese is my favorite hobby. Is it? Yeah. Are you big on cheese? Sitting down with a bit of cheese.

He does love cheese. He also likes winding me up with it. I'm fine with cheese in general. I don't like it as a dessert. It really winds me up when people get cheese in business. It's not dessert, it's shopping. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I never, I never reviewed the cheese board in a restaurant. If it, if there is a reason, I mean, there was one restaurant,

I remember where I went in to review, I think it's gone now, but they, they placed the cheese trolley right next to the door so that when you push open the door, you smelt the cheese. Well, actually what you smelt was arse because really good cheese. And I don't think they really got this, but you smell arse as you went in. But my view is that cheese, a good cheese trolley is just the victory of shopping. So I, I'm delighted they went shopping. I'm delighted they have a cupboard.

Yes. For the keeping of the cheese, but I'm, I don't, I'm not really that interested. Oh, but a trolley, but they all wheel up a cheese trolley. And you get to pick what you want. It's so exciting. Well, that may sound like a good day out. I mean, is it reasonable to question whether as a diabetic, you're not necessarily going to hit the dessert list with the same enthusiasm? So yeah, sometimes, sometimes it depends.

So for you, cheese is a way through. Sometimes it is. Being discriminated against as a man with the pattern of pathology. But I kept like, I could eat dessert if I, you know, inject insulin for it, but sometimes you can't be bothered with that sort of thing. So sometimes cheese is just a way. You don't want to jack up before a Moran. Yeah, exactly.

So you can just have a lovely bit of cheese. Well, that's fair, that's fair enough. You can do what you like. I mean, I thought I was just, I'm reviewing restaurants. So even, even if I wasn't diabetic, I still think I'd lean towards the cheese board. Yeah, but you're type one. You always happen to have no idea. Yeah, true.

I mean, I was on, I was on, I was 13. Really? You're a fucking nightmare for the first 12 years. Be honest. I want you to know that I'm not obviously taking the piss out of the TV. I would like, Jay, to review your childhood, please. Very exciting. You're a second critic on the podcast.

A second, if you count the first. No, Grace is a very dear friend of mine and a colleague. We share many things. Yes. Including an audience. Yes. You know, we divide and rule. We don't review the same restaurants ever.

I really don't. We have a system. It's of, I'm direct, but I have to go through her editor, because she's obviously quite a bit grander than I am. So her editor and I exchange lists of restaurants. He says, can I take X? And I say, yes, if I can take Y. So that you never have the chance of, you know, either clicking on,

or picking up the Guardian, the Reserver over a weekend, and finding Grace Dent and me holding forth on the same restaurant over the same weekend. Or in fact, any weekend. That's good. And so do, when it comes to like what restaurants you review, do you personally choose that? I choose them.

Oh, and how do you make your mind up? I look at the size of the brown envelopes that have been placed on my desk in my workout, which are, it's a writing job. It's not an eating job. So I have to, nobody, I'm paid for how I write. So it has to have a story to it. It has to be compelling.

And that's what I'm always looking for, because there are any number of, you know, let's say gastropubs in the UK, and they all have the same menu. I can describe that menu, too, if you like. Yeah. Well, the British gastropub menu is now a risotto, a beetroot and goat's cheese salad, and a terrine to start.

Yeah. It's a sea bass dish, a pork belly dish, and a rib eye steak for the main. And it's a lemon tart, a creme brulee, and a chocolate fondant for dessert. That is now the default of the British menu. And there are any number of gastropubs that do that, really, really well.

But if I went into one of those, I wouldn't have anything to say for 1,100 words. So I'm looking for somewhere that I can write 1,100 words about, and then I'm looking for a change in location, in price point, and so I'm just trying to keep it mixed up. Amazing. I never think about that kind of stuff. Yeah. It makes perfect sense when you say it, but like, yeah.

Oh, yeah. I quite like my job, so I want to keep it. Do you ever think, like, you just, for a laugh, just go like, review McDonald's or something? I have review McDonald's. What? When did you do this? What's brilliant is when you feel you've sat down to do a podcast with people who've done their research.

Oh, no, we don't do any of that. Do you not do any research? No, no, no. So I'm going to have to plug my... Oh, no, we can see the book on the table, so we'll definitely help you find your goddamn book. All right, so what happened was there was an Italian critic, restaurant critic, who gave McDonald's a bad review.

Right. And McDonald's sued him for criminal libel. Right. So it was an act of solidarity. I went and reviewed McDonald's. Essentially, what I said was, look, we know it's basically shit. Yeah. And it's okay if you eat it every now and then.

But let's not pretend, you know, the chips are awful, even though actually, weirdly, in this book about my last supper, I do include McDonald's chips as one of my top five lifetime chip experiences, but it's number five, and I can come back to that. We have a regular argument about Burger King chips versus McDonald's chips. Well, it's Burger King every time.

Whoever's saying McDonald's is wrong. Correct, Jay. Lovely Burger King chips followed by cheese trolley. Yeah, well, that's it. That's dinnersorted. Journey with it. My review was sort of solidarity. We said, we know it's crap.

It's fine every now and then if you want that crap, and it finished with the line to McDonald's lawyers, come and have a go if you think you're hard enough. Lovely. And did they? No. No. No, they dropped their case against the poor Italian man.

Yeah, of course, yeah. I think the stupidest documentary ever is that one when he eats all the McDonald's every single day. It's samey. What points are you making? It's samey. And what points are you making a point we all know before you even went into it?

I did the high end version of that for another book. Oh, yeah? So Super Size Me, which was the Morgan Spurlock film where he went and ate McDonald's every day for a month, wasn't it? And if they said, would you like to Super Size That, he had, and then he was medically checked. So the high end version was to eat in a Michelin

three star every day for a week. And if they said, would you like to take the tasting menu? And I did that in Paris. And the pairing? Did you always take the pairing as well? Well, no, actually I didn't because that would have just made it ridiculously, I mean it was ridiculously expensive and it was because I was paying

for all of them. It was finding companions with the real issue. I had to get people to come out to Paris to join me. And that was hard to get people to come to Paris and have a three Michelin star meal. Yeah, it was slightly tricky. Nailing them all was quite difficult as well. And I have to say it was grinding.

There was a point when you get to silver leaf to see water foam on a stick. Where is that? I'm losing the will to live. So we start the meal with, we always start this way. Still a sparkling water. Oh, sparkling. Always sparkling.

Always sparkling, yeah, absolutely. I mean, what's the point? Still water is an opportunity to drink sparkling water that's been wasted. Right. Simple as that. There was a chapter on that in this. I went to a sparkling water sommelier.

Oh, and I taste. Yeah, there is one. I mean, I'm not sure if it's an official title or one. No, I'm sure it's an official. He said he got it from an institution in Germany. Which kind of makes sense, doesn't it? That you have to go to Germany to get a title. Did he set it up though?

I think that was next to my genie school. But we did a sparkling water tasting and we finally found that the optimum sparkling water was a thing called Châtendon, which was Louis XIV's favourite water, naturally effervescent. And it was gorgeous. That's what I, it's bad one, naturally effervescent. Yes, it is, I think.

That's the only one I really like. And really salty. Yeah. High in mineral. So your book's called My Last Supper. Right. It's a concept based on our podcast, of course. Of course it is.

Although mildly commissioned two years before your podcast was ever launched. Oh sure, but our podcast was commissioned in our brains three years ago. You'll find, Jay, we came up with the idea of having a favourite food. I think you probably did. And I acknowledge, I think I acknowledge

your supremacy in favourite food-ness. Yes. The problem is, as a food critic, you have so many different meals that you never get to decide what your favourite is. Well, finally I have it. Finally, you're here. So listen, the point is, so when I do my one-man shows,

I do question and answer at the end. And the question I've been asked most regularly is, you know, imagine you're on death row, watching Last Meal. I'm always touched by the fact that they want to see me put to death. And my stock response has been, I think I would have lost my appetite.

Right, yeah, of course. And I've got to think about all the people who are eligible for Last Meals, and they are the condemned, the suicidal, the term leal. It's always dark. It's always dark. There's one other category, which is the suicide bomber. But I can't even bring myself to get into that.

And also, you'd be so nervous. Wouldn't you? You'd be so nervous. Butterflies in the sky before it was flung. You just need some rennies. That would be why Last Meal before. None of these people are really suitable to eat one. Yeah.

And anyway, that's not the question they're asking. When you ask someone, what would your Last Meal be, what you're really saying is, if no one was looking, if you could just express who you are through a bunch of dishes, and there were no consequences, you weren't going to worry about how you felt the next day.

What would you have? So the book is my journey to find those ingredients, explain the stories behind them, psychoanalyze myself, talk a bit about music and food and all of that. And then at the end, have a big fuck-off party and find out whether it was worth it or not, and then move on with my life.

Did you actually have a big pub? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had my last supper in a room above a pub in West London. Amazing. 40 of us. We've got a piano in. I had most of the band that I play with because I have this sideline as a jazz musician.

And got a really good chef to work on the dishes and the various things. Some of the things, you asked for my menu, and a couple of them are actually from the last supper. Excellent. And a couple of them aren't. The dent to get an invite to the last supper? Um, we are colleagues, we're not.

I admire Ladent very deeply. I'm very profoundly, and I'm a big fan of all her work. Yes, but no last supper dent, absolutely. So we've got some sparkling water. The end result, because there is a bit of a toll environmentally, not on the CO2, because the CO2 used in sparkling water where it's been injected into it is a byproduct from the fertilizer industry.

So that's, you know, when was it last summer, summer of 2018? In case you're now listening to this in 2042, it was a legacy podcast. Summer of 2018, there was suddenly a CO2 shortage and beer companies were telling pubs to stop selling beer and all that. There was a lot of panic. So the reason was because the fertilizer companies

tend to close down some of their factories in the summer to clean them down, and CO2 is byproduct of the fertilizer industry. And they all closed down at once by accident, and there was a shortage of CO2, which is why there weren't any fizzy drinks, it's why they couldn't power certain things. And then, yeah.

I do remember that now. I forgot about that, but I did an episode of Mock the Week. I think I did that one as well. I went on that one. We had, that was one of the news stories that we had. It's one of the news stories that we saw.

Didn't really make the edit very well. Anyway, so there's the packaging thing and all of that. So I now have a home carbonation machine. Soda stream. A soda stream, yeah. Other ones are. I'm not even sure they are. I have a soda stream and I like it,

which means I can calibrate my level of effervescence. Pop it up to a bread, Jay. Pop it up to a bread. Depends where you are, James. Hey, I made a dream mess to our Jay. Well, actually, if there's a big pile of poppadoms, I'm face down in them. Yes.

I think I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they're lentil based. So I'm not a keto dieter, but given A, my physical, I have a metabolism basically engineered for the Russian steps when the Cossacks are coming. There's a particular Jewish Ashkenazi trait to be big shoulder and have big thighs and big ass,

because it's cold in Russia. And you need to survive when there's a pogrom. So I'm basically engineered for a pogrom. And that means it's slow metabolism, not good at running, terrible at DIY. And because of all those things, I try to avoid carbs. Although I had toast for breakfast, so I don't avoid it very much.

But bread doesn't happen very much in my life, but poppadoms. Yes. I think they're lentil based, don't they? I'm not sure. You've been asking this question quite a lot, haven't you? And you've never checked? I've never checked.

And I guess most things I eat in life, I don't even know what they are. It's own type of food. It's own type of food. Well, you thought it came out the ground. You thought, yes, the poppadom trees. They grind down the ingredients of the poppadom trees. I'd never thought about it.

Yeah, they're lentil based. I'm happy to go with that. Can you remember where you've had the best poppadoms you've ever had? Oh, the best poppadoms you'll ever have are after Deliveroo have dropped, or other food delivery companies, have dropped the curryhouse finest onto your own living room coffee table. While you're watching probably you two and I replay on Dave. Much obliged.

As long as they're reasonably freshly out of the deep half right. Do you have a favourite local curryhouse? No, I keep sort of circulating through varieties of them, thinking the perfect one is out there when it isn't. Yeah, do you find that because I guess a lot of people would have like just standard places they go to all the time. Obviously, your job is to go to loads of different places, but then in your free time as well, are you also...

No, actually, the truth is in my free time, I tend to go to similar places. You know, I've got a particular Chinese on Gerrard Street. Right. Where I go to by myself. Yes. Sit there with my back to the door so no one can see my shame. And that does really good roast Cantonese duck.

And are you not naming it so people can't come... It's called The Four Seasons on Gerrard Street. Lovely. Number 12, because if you go there and you stand looking north on Gerrard Street right in the middle, you'll see that Number 12 is The Four Seasons. But Number 14 is also The Four Seasons. They are clearly, you look at the feature, clearly part of the same company.

Nobody knows why there are two of them. There is no archway linking those dining rooms. There were just two doorways. I have... I don't know anybody who's ever gone into Number 14, but Number 12. It's bizarre. One of the great mysteries of London's Chinese.

But the way you told that was so great, it felt like the beginning of a new Harry Potter book. To two doors with the same dress on both sides. There's two doors. And then one day I went into the other one. And that's when the adventure began. And that's run by the twin of the guy who runs the other one. They hate each other, and they haven't talked in 40 years.

But they get their ducks from the same place. One's got a scar on his left cheek, and one's got a scar on his right cheek. Sometimes people can't remember which one is which. Yeah, I love it. I want to read it. But anyway, the Cantonese roast duck there is... Amazing.

It's, you know, I think the Chinese do the best things with ducks. Of all the cooking... Hang them in the window a lot of the time. Well, you know, they've got to be somewhere. Yeah, show off the goods. Yeah. So, we come to your starter. Yep.

So, we're into the big leagues now, into the proper courses. Yep. Is it from a specific place this start? I suppose in the memory it is, because this is actually one of the things that's part of my last supper, and I reference a meal with my late mother at a restaurant called Rules.

Now, Rules is a maiden lane in Cove and Garden. It's been there since 1798. Oh, my God. Did you? Yeah, for the first time. Was it good? It was very nice. I had...

Sorry, Ed's been making fun of me for this, but I had a black velvet... I never drank a black velvet before. Guinness and champagne. Guinness and champagne, yeah. I loved it so much. I've been making fun of you, because then you went to a pub in Brixton.

And I asked for a black velvet. And they had no idea what it was for you. Which champagne would you like in that night, my dear boy? Well, I told Nish to get it. Yeah. And Nish refused to say black velvet to them, but basically... And he came back with a pint of Guinness...

What on questions of diversity in Brixton? So, it was like, I live in Brixton. Yes. Just to make it clear that I can make those jokes. Maybe I can't. Fuck. We'll find out. We'll find out.

We'll find out. Rainier, he's a racist. But he got a pint of... So, he came back with a pint of Guinness and Prosecco. And then I just poured the Prosecco in the Guinness, and I did not feel good the next day. So, but you probably had to drink some of the Guinness first and then tap it up with the Prosecco?

Also, I had to have it in the Guinness glass, which, when I got it at Rawls, they gave it to you in a chilled, like, tankered kind of metal... Well, it's a pewter. I guess so. Yeah, it's like... Metal. That's a metal. Yes.

Did they have pewter and kettering? No, absolutely not. Pewter never reached kettering. If you had a pewter and kettering, you're getting beaten up, mate. Really? Yeah, yeah. With the pewter.

Yeah, with the pewter. Yeah, with the pewter. You're banging around there. I mean, it's a very classic British restaurant. And one of the classic things is you can only cook really good British food if you first beat France a lot. So it's that kind of British restaurant, and they do steak and kidney puddings really well,

and they do lots of game. They have their own game reservoir. They kill things. But anyway, so my mother, my late mother, was a journalist and agony aunt. She was really famous. You two were too young to remember her. I remember her. I do. I remember her.

You remember Claire? Yeah. All right. So she had this thing that once a year, there were three siblings, me, my brother and sister. She would take us out on her rounds of national newspaper offices, magazines, whatever, which she always did on a Tuesday.

And we'd have this day out with mum, which would stop with a perfect journalist's lunch in rules. And so I would have been 10. I usually do the, you know, the old Rita Rudner joke. It was a, mine was a standard middle class upbringing. We, Jewish upbringing, we were exceptionally wealthy. And I just had this memory of this first time when I was about 10, and the waiter comes and says,

will you be starting with oysters? And my mother says, looks at me and I, and it's clear that I'm meant to be starting with oysters. And then all the accessories that come with oysters, and the spindle frame is delivered. And then there's a plate with a muslin wrapped lemon, and then there's Tabasco, and there's some shallot vinegar, and then the oysters, I mean, anything, any food stuff

that has this many accessories is worth the effort. Frankly, you can just watch the show and not even eat them. But, and it's sort of a, I came to associate oysters with being a grown-up, because I was quite keen on, I didn't mind being a child. I wasn't very good at it. I was very similar. We've discussed this briefly before.

I think I, from a very early age, I always rejected the kids menu out of hand immediately. You sophisticated. I'm not going near it. So I would have, I would have definitely had an oyster. You had an oyster. Yeah, for sure. And I couldn't climb trees.

I couldn't skim stones. And I was just, you know, never picked for football, all that sort of stuff. But if you put me at the table, I would leapfrog my peers. So where, where the other 10-year-olds were going, ah, money! I was going, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme the oysters. Ice cream oysters, yes.

Ice cream oysters. What the ones in the... The ones in the shells. In the shells. Oh, I love them. So, they're so good. How have you got this onto ice cream already? Don't worry, we're just going to let him take it

on a diet in that. I'm going to bring it straight there. The wafer shell. It's a wafer shell. And the, the base of it is dipped in chocolate with some coconut on it. And then you have some marshmallow in the base of the shell,

and then it's filled with the Mr. Whippy ice cream. And then you get like... Look, it's a fabulous, fabulous thing. That was my oyster when I was 10. That was my oyster. And you have to, and you have to buy it out of a van that's actually pumping carbon monoxide up your nose while you're purchasing it.

Absolutely. But hey, they came pre-shucked. It was great. It was great. Have you ever done a non-ice cream oyster? Yes. And I love them now. Oh, you do?

Yeah. I think I got into them in my 20s though. So, I was like a decade after you guys. What about you? I love an oyster. All right, good. Absolutely, yeah. And it's, but the ritual is part of it.

Yeah, the ritual is absolutely part of it. And then, and also that flavor. I once wrote a piece for the observer in which I said it was advice to women, never take a lover who does not like oysters because, you know, the sex isn't going to be up to it. Right. And I got a lot of correspondents agreeing with me,

particularly from lesbians, particularly from gay women who said, you're absolutely right. It was great. I just felt that we're having a proper conversation. Yeah, it's a proper chat. What's your theory behind that though? What's the argument behind it?

What's the argument behind the argument women shouldn't take a lover who doesn't like oysters? Yeah, because they taste brilliantly of female parts. Oh, okay. Sorry. That was maybe very nice. There is a very simple, straight, but it's not just looks, it's a simple taste.

Sorry, I've never been more naive in my life, James. Where do you think that was going? Where do you think this was going? Basically, a reference to kind of lingers, James. Because we were talking about how sophisticated we all were if we eat oysters. I was like, yeah, because proper grown-ups eat oysters. And I just went straight into it.

And then I was my little naive little mind. Yeah. Have you never seen Jay eat an oyster? He licks it for 25 minutes before he swallows it. I'm nothing if not polite. You've made the great bonito blush. The great bonito, of course, is a vegetarian. So yeah, that's why he's gutted about this.

I was like, mate, you say gutted. Where do you stand on cooked oysters? They have that place. I don't mind a baked oyster. I just reviewed a restaurant prior to recording this in Guernsey, where they did a lovely sort of champagne sabayon with spinach and a bit of mature cheddar. It was a fantastic thing.

And oyster beignet when you, or tempura oysters, when you deep fry them, they could be fantastic. But the raw is the raw. I'll tell you what sort of beignets I like. Oh, here we go. Do they include oyster? That's some nice ones in New Orleans ones. The nice beignets with sugar.

How does sugar go on the top of it? I had it with a hot chocolate. Yeah. I mean, actually, an oyster beignet is a deep fried oyster. The beignet you're describing is just a posh word for a doughnut. Yep. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing.

Nothing wrong with that. If something's taken a trip through the deep fat fryer. Yeah. Good on it. Good. That's a good, that's a very strong. Are your oysters from Rawls? Is that what you would like as part of your dream meal,

part of your dream meal now? Funnily enough, no, in the last supper, I actually had to go all the way to Northern Ireland to find the right ones. What? I got them imported. My oysters came flying in from Castleford Loch, I think it was. And is that something you'd been before?

I specifically went hunting them. Well, you know, at heart, I'm a reporter, I'm a researcher. That's why, so when I set out on this, it was like, where am I going to find killer oysters? Yes. Well, not killer oysters, which sounds like a really bad James Herbert book. Free willy seat book. Yeah.

But fine oysters of a particular quality, not natives, rocks, people going about natives, I'm not convinced. So yeah, and I got the oysters, I found this variety, this firm down in just the south of Northern Ireland, which makes amazing, grows amazing rock oysters. What's their names? Rooney Fish. So you come to your main course now.

Spare Ribs. The Spare Ribs. And we have not had this on the podcast yet. Nobody said Spare Ribs. No one said Spare Ribs. Who are these people you keep talking to? God, no. I think Spare.

They're not Jay Vayner. Spare Ribs are yet to go through that. You know how the whole burger thing kicked off again a few years ago? I don't think Spare Ribs have gone through their sort of fashionable phase. They have sort of, because you've had the big US barbecue thing, and they are a function of US barbecue. But I'm quite slut when it comes to Spare Ribs. I'm promiscuous.

Yeah. So it's not just they must be low and slow American barbecue. I think Bodine, some people are down on Bodine's, but I think they do a really solid job and I quite like those. The Big Easy. Again, there's one on Maine now. They're great. But also, you know, those,

do you remember those Cantonese Spare Ribs, which would always be sort of Daeglo Oren. Yes. And they'd kind of be coming, giving off their, like they only had their own stage lighting. I found some of those in a restaurant in Blackpool. It was amazing. Just done a show in Blackpool,

and we went to this place called The Walk-In on the front. And it was really good, but the thing that was amazing was these Spare Ribs, which were for many of us in the panel who are throwback, you know, in our fifties, it was a throwback to the seventies. Yeah. Fantastic.

And then there's other ways with Spare Ribs. Like you can get the ones with salt and pepper. I love salt and pepper. Salt and pepper ribs. Salt and pepper ribs are really good. Yeah. They're really good. So it's just the Spare Rib itself that you're into?

I am. So I think eating with your hands is a thing. Okay. I think it's a really important thing. When you eat with your, with cutlery, you're using sight, smell, taste. When you're using your hands, touch is involved. And it just becomes a really tactile thing.

Yeah. And I think. An extra layer. Do you remember in 2015 on the campaign trail, David Cameron, remember him? Yes. Yes. He was, he was trying to get elected.

And he was photographed eating a hot dog with a knife and fork. And while there are myriad reasons to look at a picture of David Cameron and go, you wanker. That one. That was the one that finally nailed it for me. You're eating a hot dog with a knife and fork. Why? Why would you do this?

The reason is because he thinks he needs to be sort of a feat because he wants to get elected. And who wants a man with greasy fingers with their finger on a nuclear button? Right. Sure. So he's. That's the direct reason, you think.

The people who are worried his buttons gonna, he's gonna slip off the button. It's all, what do they call it? The optics. How it looks. How it plays. Yes. How it plays the middle England.

And he didn't record. I mean, mind you, it has to be said, there was also during that election, that for political balance. Yes. That picture of Ed Miliband with his bedroom face on eating a bacon sandwich. And he was using his hands.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe he just really likes a bacon sandwich. But so. It was more the face was the issue there. It wasn't the bacon sandwich. Yeah. It was more the face. It was the face which had that kind of,

you know, that slight whimper. He had the edge of a whimper on it. It's a Miliband's face. Yeah, yeah. So there's not either a specific plate of spare ribs that you would like to select. Well, if I really could, I would go back, I would go back again to being a child.

There was a chippy, I think it was called Louis, somewhere in North Hall or South Harrow, near where I grew up in. I grew up in Harrow, in North West London. And it was a basic chippy, but they did these racks of ribs. And I really, I would love to know what was on them, because some of it's probably, you know,

if you put a Geiger counter. And they would be cooked in the most subtle way, which is they'd be deep fried. Yeah. And then they'd come out and, but they were fantastic. Yeah. Bright orange, sort of rust-colored and slightly sweaty. And you know, when you get the, you won't start unwrapping

the paper like it's passed the parcel. Yeah. And the grease stains are really starting to, anyway, so I think those, I've not seen them. I did go through a period of those really, really, what's the word for them, deep red ones that you'd get out. Well, I think KFC used to do them.

Yeah. Those ones were really... You almost like schooled in a sauce, really, isn't it? It's just like really offensive flavour. Or just, you know, make-up that you put on your cheeks to indicate that you are now a savage. In long lines. It's what you should do before you eat them.

You know, get your fingers in there. Yeah, yeah, all of your cheeks. And then, and then bring on. But, you know, I've always been hands-on. I like the tactile thing. And Spurri's the tactile. So I'd go back, I think, to Louis, South Harrow, circa 1978.

Oh, there's a theme. It's all from when I'm about 10. Have you seen Ratatouille? I have seen Ratatouille. Fabulous film. In fact, it's the only film that if you talk to chefs about the representation of restaurants on film, they might, if they're trying to be posh,

talk about Tampopo or Big Night, which is a great film as well, Stanley Tucci's film. But the one that they all go, oh, yeah, is Ratatouille. It's an animated film, but it's the one that gets restaurant kitchens better than any other. And why do you think that is? Because actually, they did their research.

They had some very serious people involved. Thomas, a big American chef called Thomas Keller was a consultant on it. And I think Guy Savoir was involved in some way. And they got these other, when they translated it into other languages, they had other big name chefs doing the voicing of one particular part.

So they'd done their research. And how do you think, so they nailed the kitchens, but how well do you think they nailed the critics? Because... Anton Ego. What I'm thinking, is why I'm reminded of it, is because both of your dishes so far have been childhood memories. And that moment when Anton Ego eats the Ratatouille

and he is simply transported back to being a 10-year-old child or a little child. And it's brilliant. And I quoted, so I do a live show about my worst restaurant experiences called My Dining Hell. And in the intro, it's based on a book, which is a collection of my most negative reviews.

And in the introduction to that, where I'm talking about the culture of the negative review and why we like them, I quote that Anton Ego, statement at the front, taken in the main, what we do does not amount to a whole hill of beans, compared to the creativity of chefs.

It's a brilliant speech, utterly brilliant speech. So do you feel like that as well, that you're looking for, do you look to get transported back to being a little boy? Not on a regular basis. But, you know, having spent, well, 18 months writing about my last uproar

and all the memoir elements that are in there, then that has become an inevitable thing. Because part of it is, you know, I'm in my 50s, so there's less time to go than there has been. And therefore mortality hangs around both my parents are dead, so I've shifted up the bench in the waiting room and someone once said.

And so you tend to look back. And try and cling to those particular things. And that's how food works. Food is brilliant at that. It really is, as being a time machine. That was a really good question, James. I thought you were about to say, you like ice cream ribs.

That's what I thought you were going with it. Well, actually, it was even that. I was going to say, have you seen the ribs in the Flintstones that they put on the cart? They look really great. Yeah, but the thing is, I'd watch that and think, when I was a kid, thinking, wouldn't mind.

Yeah. Yeah, I'll give it a crack. It does look pretty delicious. Yeah. When they put the top of his car over. Yeah. They're so big. They're so big the car goes over everyone's ribs.

Yeah, I think we'd all like to have some. How should a rib be cooked? Because I used to think, I think with meat you get told, if it's low and slow and it falls off the bone, it's good. But then, me and James are both a big fan of barbecue pit masters,

which is a competition barbecue cooking show. And they say that the best way to cook a rib is it should be on the bone and you should have to bite and put it off. Yes, yeah. For the American stuff, American barbecue, yes, it should still have some bite to it.

And so, but it's still kind of a low and slow thing. Yeah. It's just how long is it going to be and how much direct heat are you going to give it? The quickest ones are lamb ribs. And they have to be eaten the moment they come out and you can do those in about an hour. Just roast those very quickly in a hot oven.

Yeah. And they're a real kind of. I think I prefer lamb ribs. I think, yeah. Chinese way is generally to braise first in a braising liquor of soy and star anise and a bit of sugar. And so, they're simmered in that for an hour or two.

Yeah. And then they're quick. Either they're quick fried or they're quick roasted. I really want some ribs now. You really want ribs? Yeah, I want ribs. You want ribs? Also, you've kind of convinced me,

because a lot of the time, there's a bit of an ongoing argument with me and Ed about like, I don't like chicken wings and stuff like that because I have to eat them with my hands, right? So, I don't like that. James doesn't like eating with his hands and he doesn't like taking things off the bone. Does he not?

I don't like all of that. Well, this is probably the only time we're ever going to meet. This is the first time when I've felt like I've been kind of like, hearing what you said about it has to be tactile and all your senses involved. Makes me feel like I actually want to get into that. Does it? Does it really?

Yeah, I feel like I want to talk about it. You think you've been turned? Have you been turned, James? I feel like I've been turned. Have you been turned? I feel like I have been turned. Have you? But like, were you?

I don't believe you. I'm slightly concerned now I hear that you've got all these issues, the patchy thing. Do you move with a pack of wet wipes? No, no, I don't. Do you like to keep an eye out for a shot where you might be able to purchase a wet wipe? Should the eventuality arise?

No, but I think if I was having ribs or chicken wings and stuff, I would want too much, too many wet wipes on hand so that I felt completely like this is okay. After I've eaten this, I can clean up completely. You want an exclusion zone around you as well so you're not splattering other people? Yeah, well, no, that's fine. I don't care.

Other people's fine. Just you care about that, right? I feel like afterwards, I never feel like I've completely got it off my hands. I just feel completely... Unclean. I feel like I'm clean. I want to be straight to... I live to be unclean, James.

Like, I want to be straight into a shower that is like the biggest pressure shower ever. After you eat chicken wings, you feel like Macbeth, essentially, right? You know, like, when people go into prison and they get... And they all have to go in the shower. And they have to be hosed down. Hosed down.

By a 1970s prison guard. Yeah. From the scum. I want them to chuck that horrible powder over me that burns and then spray me with the hose. And then throw me in prison if they like. If that's what it takes after I've had those ribs. Maybe just avoid ribs.

Or maybe, but like, I have had... Have you sort of committed crimes, just to get through that experience? I had to commit a crime. And then... Because obviously, it's just because I want the ribs stuff off me. So I'd have to either commit a crime and then victory eats some ribs while the cops are coming.

Or I'd have to... Or it's... Or you eat the ribs and then quickly commit the crime. Smearing your victims. Yeah, yeah. In barbecue sauce. Or it's your last supper if you do it like you're on death row. That's it.

Or do your last supper ribs. And then it doesn't matter if you're dirty because you'd be dead. Yep, sure. It doesn't... It's okay being dirty if you're dead. Yeah, that's our catchphrase. Little catchphrase on the show. It's okay being dirty if you're dead.

Try and work it into every show. That's good. It's okay being dirty if you're dead. So, come to your side dish now. So my side dish emerged out of... There's an old chapter in the book about bread and butter because there has to be and butter is a big thing. And I go looking for butter.

And I came up with a vehicle for butter involving cabbage. And what's brilliant about this is it... You know, I do eat salad. I want people to know and I do go to the gym. But I buttered cabbage. And it's a way of doing buttered cabbage which makes cabbage really filthy. In a good way.

I don't like those words about dirty and clean. Not dirty, food's not dirty and clean. But it makes it delicious. Yes. I mean, cabbage can be delicious. But this is that white cabbage. And you fry it off very slowly in a bit of olive oil and then some butter, quite a lump of butter.

And then you add a glug of 150 ml of chicken stock. And then you let it cook down until almost all of it has gone. And then you add some more chicken stock and some more butter and you let it cook down again. And what you end up with is caramelized cabbage which is deeply savoring, deeply buttered. You can do it with vegetable stock as well if you want to keep it, you know, non-animal.

But with the chicken stock. Is this your own? I believe it is my own. Yeah. My own recipes, my own method. Do you use dirty cabbage? Yes, dirty, buttered cabbage. I'm withdrawing the dirt.

That's fine. No one has to die here. No one has to die here. Spare him. So, I mean, you know, we're talking about a meal at the end of the world, aren't we? Yes. We're talking about there's no tomorrow.

And there are no consequences. So if anybody's listening going, listen to him. That unhealthy dirty, oh, I've seen him on MasterChef with those dark rings under his eyes. It's a Jewish Ashkenazi trait, okay? Oh, we must have liver issues because of eating all that butter. No. Will they say that?

Do you get a lot of that? Oh, I've been, I've had nutritionists, I'm doing inverted commas in front of the microphone, claiming that they could diagnose everything that was wrong with me, I think. Where would you stop is what I wanted to say. Well, that's it. I'm watching a food show.

Yeah. People are staggeringly rude. But you guys know that. They must... How often do you get told you're not funny? Oh, yeah, all the time. Yeah. Which is slightly, you know, given what you do for a living.

I've never experienced it. You've never experienced it. You've always been funny. Yeah, to happen. Which is, I think being told you're not funny is probably more offensive than a... No one's telling you you're missing your mouth. No.

Like they are, you're doing your job, I suppose, but... They're not saying you don't know about food. I guess they just say, they're just trying to find flaws and go, you should stop eating all that food, you're going to die. Yeah, well, eventually sometime, but I look after myself. Anyway, so this butter cabbage is a very luscious thing. It sounds phenomenal.

And it is, it is pretty damn good. That sounds like a good addition to Christmas dinner to make vegetables more exciting. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, the nutritional value might have fallen slightly in the process, but it has other things going for it. And do you cook a lot?

Yeah. Yeah, I do. Because I can't eat out in restaurants all the time and I'm greedy. Plus, I like the process. I like the Zen process of, if you go into, if you're feeling like you're not in control of the world, you can go into the kitchen, bend ingredients to your will,

make a mess, tidy them this up, feed people. Something has happened. You've taken back control through food. Yeah. And did you, like, so when you started cooking, was it because you were a big fan of like going out and you were thinking, because from an early age,

you were thinking about food more than... Yeah, I just, I think I just thought it was a necessary skill for a grown-up. Yeah, that sounds good point. I just think it's something, you know, that if you can't, you're missing part of the arsenal of grown-ups. Plus, if you want to eat the good stuff

and you can't eat out, then you're going to have to do it for yourself. Yeah. And I found I liked the process. Yeah. I didn't really get into it until university. Okay. I had to cook some terrible things

when I was a kid for my parents, like four people. Can you remember some example? I did a really terrible thing involving mints and green peppers. Oh, that's the thought of it. And then I made banana bread once, and it was very nice, the banana bread. And I suspect my parents thought

that there was a life of baked goods in front of them, except all I ever did was fucking banana bread. And they're very nice, darling, very nice. Oh, Jesus, he's baking again. We can't stop him. He's still hulking. Smells of bananas. Yeah, the bananas are out.

And so banana bread is not going to be your dessert? No. No. No, but we've got the drink first. But like, it would be great if banana bread wasn't... Oh, did your cabbage dish have a name? Did my cabbage dish have a name? Butted cabbage.

Butted cabbage. Butted cabbage. Do you not want to put your name into it? Because it's your... Rainer's Butted Cabbage. Jay's Butted Cabbage. Jay's Butted Cabbage. So all of a sudden, that sounds more appealing

straight away, actually. Yeah. We can be snobbish about it, but that sounds nice. Jay's Butted Cabbage. Well, you can try and be snobbish about it, but I'll just roll my eyes at it. He's such enthusiasm. You can actually hear my eyeballs.

Your beverage. My beverage. Bodkun Lime. Bodkun Lime, Sorya. That surprised me. I thought you were going to go with a specific wine or something? No. No?

No, I mean, there are various things I could have gone for to try and sound grand. There are some things I like. But one of the things that happened in the 90s was the rise of the Alcopop. Yes. And what the Alcopop did was make it too easy to drink.

So back when I was a kid, in the late 70s, early 80s, alcohol was something you had to push on through. You tasted beer for the first time. It was horrible. Yeah. Really horrible. But everybody was doing it and saying, well, I've got to kind of try and master that.

I'll get that. You try and wish. You think, it's horrible. I'll keep trying. But one of my ways through this was to discover Bodkun Lime. Which is basically my own Alcopop. Yes. And then when I became a journalist,

I managed to get myself to New York, sent to New York for the first time when I was in a bar in the Algonquin Hotel. It's a weird story. I started very quickly. I got sent to New York by The Observer when I was like 22. And I booked into the Algonquin because it was the only hotel I'd ever heard of.

And it's the great literary hotel that Dorothy Parker had, the New York Around Table and James Thurber. And so I thought I was very grand. And there was a bar there. It was a very literary bar. I even, you know, it was rumored that even the barman, head barman had published two novels. And I sat down at this bar, very jet lagged,

and a long way from home, I'm a very alone and a bit scared because I had to file a national newspaper column at the end of the week from a standing start. Didn't know anyone in town. And he said, what would you have to drink? And I said, Bodkun Lime. And he said, do you mean a vodka gimlet?

I said, so what? Sorry. And he said, vodka gimlet. Vodka lime cordial? I said, are you telling me that this thing that I've been drinking has a name? Because if it has a name, it's sophisticated. It's no longer this...

Not Jay's Vodka and Lime. It's no longer Jay's Vodka and Lime. It's a thing, a vodka gimlet. You can't have a gin gimlet, panoramic. And he went, ah, it's a vodka gimlet. Great choice. And then he said, what's your favorite vodka? I don't fucking know.

And I just pointed at one. And I pointed at Stoly, without Stolyinka, without really knowing what it was. And apparently that was a really good tasteful choice. So I had gone from a childhood vodka lime alco-pop creation to a man with his own taste in vodka who was having a gimlet. And even though there are other things, actually, I'm quite keen on a daiquiri, which is rum and a lot of sours

and a whiskey sound, a vodka sound. They're all the same thing. It's basically a big hit of white alcohol, not the whiskey sour obviously, a big hit of alcohol and a big hit of citrus. Yeah. And I just, it's a great drink. So it's vodka and lime, and lime cordial.

Yeah. And that's it. What do you want, mate? What else do you want in there? And is it always that, Brandy, do you always still go for the same vodka? No, no, no, no. My view is that once you pour in lime cordial into it,

it doesn't really make any sense. I mean, I'd probably lay off the full impact of the lime cordial. But I think, as you asked me, for this very significant meal, what I would drink, it would have to be that, because it would just take me back to that transference from childhood to adulthood, becoming a sophisticated man and realizing that childish things could have real names.

Yes. Yeah. And so it's still very significant. There's something about New York specifically that makes people feel like that, I think. I think the first time I went, and I was by myself after working there for a bit and sitting at a bar of a restaurant

and drinking a cocktail and thinking, I'm pretty cool right now. Everyone's looking at me, I'm pretty cool right now. I'm in Mad Men. Yeah, exactly. So we arrive at the dessert, obviously. James' favourite. My favourite.

Your favourite. It's a chocolatey Claire. Has to be a chocolatey Claire. Why? Look, first of all, we get consistency here. Yes. If you ever see somebody eating a chocolatey Claire with a knife and fork,

sure. Fuck off. Yes, yes, yes. If David Cameron comes round and you serve him a chocolatey Claire and he gets out the knife and fork, you say David no. No, David.

No. I mean, I'm going to let you explain the chocolatey Claire and you can talk about the chocolatey Claire, but just know that I disagree with your choice wholly and we can have that argument in a few minutes. Okay. There is a childhood element. Yes, okay.

Okay, so desserts and sweet things were not a big thing in our house because my mother was fully aware that we all had our size issues, but they would be outbreaks of indulgence. And so rather than there being, so I had this thin friend and their family had a chocolate draw

in the kitchen. Yes. And there was a draw just full of chocolate. Yes. And I would see him, he would go in and he would open it and take one piece out and he'd eat it and then close the draw. And I didn't understand how that worked.

Because if that draw had been in my house, it would just be emptied on a daily basis. I had a thin friend who had that draw as well. If that draw had been in my house, there would have been a padlock on it. Absolutely. Exactly. So anyway, so every now and then...

What thin people playing? I don't know. Guess what, guys? I've got a chocolate draw now. Have you? Yeah. Have you really? Yeah, but you don't restrain yourself.

You just don't put on weight. That's true. I'm freaked. Is that true? Can you eat literally anything? At the moment, I mean, we'll see how long that lasts. Yeah, I'm coming back in 10 years to laugh and laugh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

James and his dad are absolute sweet freaks. Oh, there you go. Right, yeah, yeah. It's very funny that it's my dad as well. So sometimes my father would appear with a box of pastries. He'd gone to some place in Hampstead. There would be a box of pastries. And we always told that we couldn't have the chocolate eclair

because it was his. And however, often we said, get two chocolate eclair, maybe three? It wouldn't happen because his need for an assortment, he needed an assorted box. So I could never have the chocolate eclair, but I bloody love a chocolate eclair. True pastry is a brilliant thing. You know, Prof. Tarels were made from true pastry.

It's a cooked out pastry, which is then baked. It's very hard to make. And then it's filled with cream, and then it's got thick layers of chocolate on top. And it's tactile, isn't it? And so, you know, it's basically, it's me dealing with my father issues. It is a finely calibrated piece of dessert work, pastry work.

You've got pastry, you've got cream, you've got chocolate on top. What I can see in Ed's eyes is he's trying to muster his arguments to rebut me, but he's feeling on slightly fragile ground. Well, I am now because he obviously described it so well. That's your trade and you're convincing me. Listen, Ed, it's no shame in being turned by Rainer. We've been turned onto the rib.

It happened to me earlier. I know you. I've got a present now. I think I want to do that. I want something dense and luxurious and unctuous. And I feel like a free player I've ever had is I've bitten into it and it's gone like this. It's too much air in it.

Too much air. Too much air in it. So you don't like chocolate layers because you've only had shit ones? Cream's boring. Cream's boring. Cream's boring. Airy cream, too much bubbles.

Your podcast, mate. I'm the same with profiteroles. I think shoe pastry is like weird and tasty. What about a croque en bouche? No, that's just a sculpture. Sculpture dribbled in caramel with cream inside it. It's that hard caramel. Listen, any dessert that needs to be made in a traffic cone

is clearly a fine thing. No, it's showing off a croque en bouche. It's showing off. If there's a stand-up committee. Yeah, but I'm not a croque en bouche. It's standing on a stage in front of a thousand people on bouche. It's showing off. There's various kinds of showing off.

Yeah, I mean, I'm willing to be... If you've got a tip on where I can get an amazing eclair, I will go and eat one. Also, tell them my cream's good. My cream's good. You're the worst type of bully. Huh? You're the worst type of bully.

You're standing behind a machine bully. You go like, hit him again. There is a place... I thought he was going to be like in prison. There's a place on Old Compton Street in the corner of Old Compton Street called Maison Choux. And they do only chocolate... Well, eclairs have many flavours.

You know, it is your prerogative to choose a different flavour of... What sort of flavours? Well, they've got salted caramel, they've got raspberry, and they've got... They have a peanut butter. They almost certainly have a peanut butter one. I'll get that one. Shall we go after this?

Yeah. Are we going to basically do an oyster spare rib and a eclair corn? We're going to go and have your full meal. Are we? And you're going for a classic... Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not having all the flavours you listed.

Well, I kind of like... I do like what they do at Maison Choux. And, you know, I can walk into there and go, fuck you, Dad, I'm having whatever I like. I loved him very dearly. But the whole chocolate eclair thing was slightly disturbing. But, you know... It is funny that that's now your idea of the dream thing,

because it was held back from you for so long. Oh, I'm just one big bundle of, you know, things I've been reaching for my entire life. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's why I'm a comedian, because my dad never laughed at me. Is that what it was?

Yeah. He did. He just didn't do it in your hearing. Yeah, it was worth it. He used to bring back a box of laughs, didn't he? But you weren't allowed to laugh. You weren't allowed to laugh. Any of the laughs.

No, I'm not sad. No. No. These are my laughs. These are my laughs. None of them are for you. Right, Jay, I'm going to read your menu back to you now. See if you're happy with it.

You would like spartan mortar. I would. I'd start. Well, not to start, but yeah. You'd like some poppadoms. And then you would like some oysters from Castleford Lock. Can I point something out? I mean, you did ask me the question of a choice

between poppadoms and bread. Yes. And I was politely... I politely answered you, but poppadoms have no place in this meal. You threw it in, James. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's like you're the matriot of this restaurant

who's forcing your will upon his guests. Yeah, best kind of matriot-y. Yeah. It's just so when you go from, you know, sparkling water through oysters, poppadoms, no, don't be ridiculous. Your podcast, off you go. Ten years of matriot-y school, and I want to...

James is 90, by the way. Yeah, by the way. He looks good in it. Like he was old. Oysters, Castleford Lock. Spare ribs. Yes. You didn't specify where you wanted them from?

Oh, it did. Was it... No, I did. I went to Louise, the fish and chip place in South Harrow Circus 78. Absolutely. Side, Jays Buttered Cabbage. Yeah, can come straight out of my own kitchen.

Absolutely. Do you want to be the one making them? Or do you want me to just conjure them up with genie powers so that exactly as you would make them? Oh, your genie will be shit. I'll make them. Ten years of genie school. Vodka and lime.

Brackets, vodka, gimlet. We call it vodka and lime today. I think we call it vodka and lime. And your dessert is a chocolate eclair. That'll do me. That is a very nice meal. Very nice meal. Thank you so much.

What do we normally say at the end? That's what we say at the end. We say thank you very much. We say thank you very much. Make sure you buy my last sub. Buy J Rainer. Yes, do. Thank you very much, Jay.

It's been a pleasure. Yay. There it is, the off menu of J Rainer. Great episode, right? Yeah, great episode. Great choices. I mean, you got your back up a little bit at one point. Yeah, I mean, the whole eclair situation.

I don't know whether I'm going to be convinced around to eclairs. I told Jay as he left, I'd go and try one of the eclairs, but even the idea of it makes me feel ill. But I know you will try it because you're a man of your word. I'm a man of my word. I will go and try one of those eclairs if that's what has to be done. Yes, I think you should take a photo of yourself with it

and you should tweet that photo and you should let the listeners know how you enjoyed the eclair. Should I tweet it to Jay Rainer? Yep, also tag in Jay Rainer. Okay, but what if he doesn't answer me? Well, that's what you get for being an eclair snob. Right, I'm not being a snob. I just don't like it.

I didn't say he was snob. Right. Well, what Jay didn't say, even if he did pick a eclair for his dessert, is he didn't say hairy crackling. Congratulations, Jay. He was close when he was saying the ribs. And I was like, oh, we're in the territory of meat here.

Maybe he's going to put some cracking on these ribs. But he didn't. That's quite a good idea, actually. Yeah. Imagine some spare ribs with ground up crackling on the top. I'd actually quite like that. Yeah, minus hair. But look, great episode.

Lovely to have someone on who is so well versed in the world of food. Yes, he knows his stuff. And I liked the fact that he was a bit like Anton Ego. And he does think about his past, his childhood, when he's eating food. I know I said it at the time, James. Well, that was a really great question.

Thank you, Ed. I was really happy with that question. It was a really good question. And he clearly loves Ratatouille so much. Yes. New bits of the script. I'll tell you how I came up with that question. Yeah.

It's after we interviewed Grace Dent, I thought of it on the way home. Oh, he really slammed Grace Dent in that episode, didn't he? Oh, shots fired. Shots fired. I think we should get some more food critics on. And then we can properly get some beef going. Get the critics crit...

It's critiquing the critics. And the beef should be medium rare. Shit. Baby. Have a good Ed. So, if you buy Jay's book, I mean, it comes out this week. It's called My Last Supper. As he discussed, it's about his dream meal, really.

It's sort... It's, you know, we are suing. Well, if you've found out the podcast, you're going to love this book. I reckon. I love this book. So, get that book. He's also doing a live tour of it,

which you can find out more about on jrayna.co.uk. He's also got a podcast. He has. Big business podcast these days. Yes. It's called Out to Lunch. You can get that from all of your normal podcast places. James, what are you up to?

Darn. Not much. Cool. We need that. So, thanks very much for listening to another episode of Off Menu. We will be back soon with another one. Subscribe, like it, give it a five-star review. Tell your friends about it. All that jazz.

Let's bump it up the charts. Bump it up the charts. Bump it up the charts. And pushing down the farts. Bump it up the charts. Pushing down the farts. If no, but no coconut. Thank you very much for listening.

Goodbye. Goodbye. Hello, it's me, Amy Gladhill. You might remember me from the best ever episode of Off Menu, where I spoke to my mum and asked her about seaweed on mashed potato, and our relationship's never been the same since. And I am joined by... Me, Ian Smith.

I would probably go bread. I'm not going to spoil it in case. Get him on, James and Ed. But we're here sneaking in to your podcast experience to tell you about a new podcast that we're doing. It's called Northern News. It's about all the news stories that we've missed out from the North because, look, we're two Northerners.

Sure, but we've been living in London for a long time. The new stories are funny. Quite a lot of them crimes. It's all kicking off. And that's a new podcast called Northern News. We'd love you to listen to. Maybe we'll get my mum on. Get Glittle's mum on every episode.

That's Northern News. When's it out, Ian? It's already out now, Amy! Is it? Yeah, get listening. There's probably a backlog. You've left it so late.