Office Ladies - Casino Night Revisited w/ Ken Kwapis

Episode Date: July 15, 2020

This week we're shaking things up and revisiting Casino Night! We're answering more fan questions and covering things we missed from that episode like, Mindy's hair extensions, why some actors share their characters' names, and we clear up the My Buddy - Kid Sister debacle. We're also joined by Casino Night director and early The Office visionary himself, Ken Kwapis. Ken gives us his The Office origin story, chats about his favorite moments from the show, and helps us dig a little deeper into Casino Night. We hope you...you know what, go ahead. You can find Ken's book, But What I Really Want To Do Is Direct, here https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250260123 and here https://www.amazon.com/But-What-Really-Want-Direct/dp/1250260124

I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We were on The Office together. And we're best friends. And now we're doing the Ultimate Office Rewatch Podcast just for you. Each week we will break down an episode of The Office and give exclusive behind-the-scenes stories that only two people who were there can tell you. We're The Office, ladies. Hey, guys. Welcome to Office, ladies. Hi, friends. This week, we are doing something a little different. We are going to revisit an old episode. We're going to revisit the season two finale Casino Night episode. Yeah, guys, we're going to shake it up a little bit. We got so much love and feedback for this episode. And we really loved reading

your reactions. They cracked us up. Also, it was one of your favorite episodes that we had done. Remember, we had J.K. John Krasinski on to chat about those Jim and Pam scenes. And Jenna, Constance Gorham said, Casino Night was my favorite episode of The Office and of your podcast. I loved your conversations with John, the joy you felt when reminiscing about those backstage moments and the friendship you have was so sweet and definitely had me smiling while listening to it. Well, Constance, we agree. We agree with you. And that's why we want to go back and give this one a second look. We broke down a lot of stuff in this episode, but, Angie, we missed some stuff. What? We did. No. We did. People wrote in

with more questions. We're going to answer those. And a little later, we are going to interview the director of Casino Night, Ken Quapas. Guys, Ken directed 13 episodes of The Office, including our pilot episode. I mean, he got us started. He also directed Diversity Day, Sexual Harassment, Booze Cruise, Gay Witch Hunt. He directed our 100th episode of The Office, Company Picnic, and our finale. We literally could not be more excited to talk with him today. I love this human. He is one of my favorite humans. I'm so excited for you guys to hear his awesome, sweet voice. He's just a delight. I can't wait. Go ahead. Go ahead. That's how he would say action. Yeah. Go ahead. He would also give me notes

like this. He would say, Jenna, you know what? In this next take, why don't you, you know what? Go ahead. Yes. He would start to give me a note and then not give me a note. I would be like, what kind of like ninja mind game is this? Yeah. We're going to ask him about it. Yeah. We're going to ask him about his ninja mind tricks. All right. We could talk about Ken a lot, but first, Jenna, we should probably get started with some things that we missed. Yeah. You guys, you said we missed things you wrote in. Catherine B wrote in to say in his talking head at four seconds, Michael says the Scranton Business Park is putting on Casino Night, not Dunder Mifflin. It does seem like Michael planned most of

it and is the host, but just wanted to point it out since Angela was so worried about the budget. Wow. There it is. Four seconds, Angela. Four seconds in. We missed something, Jenna. One, two, three, four. Missed something. Exactly. I feel like this implies that all of the businesses may be threw in for the party or was it that Billy Merchant, the owner of the building through the party. It's Scranton Business Park. To me, that sounds like the businesses pulled their money and threw this Casino Night. That's what it sounds like to me. So that means like fans refrigeration participated, but then how did Michael get to be the host? Probably just because he's the loudest person at the meeting. Like, I got to do this. This

is my deal. Because nobody else wanted to. I mean, I feel like everyone was probably relieved when, well, I don't know because they probably knew what it would mean to have Michael be the host. But no one else wanted the job maybe. So there you go. Well, we got another fan catch from Eliana Cornfield and Raymond Chen. They said, what day was the Casino Night? Because when Toby was telling Michael about why they shouldn't invite the Boy Scouts, he mentions that it's a school night. Do you mean invite or did you want to say, invite? I wanted to say, invite, like in John Voight. He invited them. He invited them. I've been watching normal people, all right? Collins and Mary Ann could solve their

whole relationship by simply having one conversation. All right. That was like eight different mixes of accents. That's how I do it. I put them all together. I'll start again. We got another fan catch from Eliana Cornfield and Raymond Chen. What day was the Casino Night? Hmm. When Toby was telling Michael about why they shouldn't invite the Boy Scouts, he mentions that it's a school night. But when Jan leaves, Michael says, talk to you Monday, implying that it's a Friday night. Well, I think we all know what I have to say about this. Here we go. Why aren't they casual if it's Friday? If it's a Friday, why aren't we dressed casually? No, I know. By the way, a lot of people have written into me about this and said that in

Michael Scott Paper Company, we're going to have an episode where it's explained that we are reinstating casual Friday as if for some reason it had been banned. I'm just saying we don't cover it. Okay. We introduce this idea of casual Friday and then we don't talk about it for four years. It's left me hanging. I'm sorry you were left hanging. Thank you. I feel for you and your other friends out there who are looking for those Fridays of casualness. Thank you. But the question is, what day was the Casino Night? It's unclear. I would think it would be a Friday because they're going to stay up late. They're going to gamble and drink and they don't want to go to work the next day. So I'm saying it's

a Friday. I agree with that. And I think maybe when Toby was saying that it was a school night, maybe he means they had school that day. But a school night means you have to wake up for school the next day. Maybe it's a Thursday. We don't know, Jenna. All right. Our next catch comes from Jeremy Cordell. If Dwight is wearing his grandfather's tux that he was buried in, wouldn't it be filled with bullet holes due to the shrewt tradition revealed last season of shooting their loved ones to ensure that they do not bury them alive? I think this also brings up another question. Jeremy, follow me. Follow me on this, Jeremy. After Dwight wore the tuxedo, did they then put it back on his grandfather

to then rebury him in a barrel? Or does he just get to keep the tuxedo? I mean, Dwight mentions his grandfather was reburied in season three, episode four, grief counseling. I think they removed the tuxedo, kept the tuxedo and put him in something else when they put him in the barrel. But he probably would have had the bullet holes in his suit. I think that's a very fine catch from Jeremy. Well done. So now, Angela, I have something I'd like to point out that I cannot believe we did not discuss last time. At 15 minutes, 35 seconds, we have an amazing shot of Mindy's hair extensions, full Mindy. She's wearing a flower in her hair. We've been literally talking about these extensions for episodes,

and we failed to mention them in Casino Night. Here they are, everyone. They are substantial extensions. Kelly has gone all out. Yeah. I can't believe we didn't mention those. Okay. Also, my friend, Jenna Fisher, people say I say lady too much, so I'm going to start calling you my friend. My friend. I would like you to call me Jenna Fisher. Oh, okay, my friend, Jenna Fisher. There we are. People also wrote in about Pam's hair, but you said, not a question, but I just have to say Pam's hair looks so amazing throughout this entire episode. And Melissa Lynn said, I bet there was another meeting about her hair. Jenna, you know there was a meeting about that hair. Come on, give it up. There was a huge meeting

about that hair. And we tried, again, as we did, several different options for Pam's hair. Ultimately, we decided to go half up, half down, but instead of just having Pam let her hair naturally dry into that kind of frizzy curl, she would go back in with a curling iron and kind of soften her curls. We thought this was a good way for her to look like Pam, but like she'd given it a little effort, which seemed right on to me. So she would have had to blow dry her hair out straight, then get a curling iron and then put all those curls in, right? No, she let her hair dry naturally and then went in with a curling iron and just sort of softened the curl that was there. That's literally

how we did that hairstyle. We did not blow it out first. Okay. I just wanted to know. I was curious about that. Yes. How many steps this was. Well, here's one thing I should mention. One of the discussions was that whatever Pam's hair looked like, it had to look like she did it herself. It couldn't look like someone else did it for her, right? And the truth is I could have never, ever achieved that little swirly. If you look at the back of my head, I've got this swirly thing there. It's a swirly bun thingy that holds up half the hair. Yes. Cause her Pam clip is not there. There's no Pam clip. It's a swirly thing with little pins. There's no, my arms couldn't bend in the way that would be necessary to

achieve that. So a bit of a cheat. We went with that. Here's a little something for you guys listening. We always knew there was about to be a conversation about Pam's hair when Greg or one of the writers would come into hair and makeup because you never, ever saw them in hair and makeup. You'd see them on set, but you would rarely see them come into hair and makeup. So whenever they did, we were like, Oh, what's happening? Either Pam has a new hairstyle or Kate's getting her head shaved. What's going on? Well, here's what I thought was so funny was the number of meetings we had about my hair in this episode. And all the while, Mindy was three chairs down from me getting long, luscious extensions

that no one questioned. No one questioned how and why Kelly suddenly has long hair. We curled my hair in a slightly new way and it was like seven meetings. We were very protective of Pam's hair. They really were. And good thing too, because, well, I mean, every once in a while we messed up with low pony, but we've already spoken about that. LP. We already covered LP. All right. I would like to talk about drink orders. Attract it. Attract it. And I want to talk about it. Here's the thing. At 20 minutes, three seconds, we see Jan and Carol. They are side by side at the bar, which is totally awkward. Okay. Guess what Carol ordered? What? Red wine. Okay. Keeping it simple. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Jan orders a

cosmopolitan. You know, remember, cosmopolitan's were what I drank when I did my experiment with BJ Novak about getting drunk for the dundies. Remember I told that story? Is this because you'd watched like one episode of Sex and the City and you're like, oh, people order cosmopolitan. It's when they go to a bar. Lady, that's literally correct. Yes. I had done so little drinking that when I had to order a drink, I said cosmopolitan because it's what they drank on Sex and the City. Yes. Yes. 100%. I didn't know any, it was that or a screwdriver. I knew those two drinks. That's it. All right. So Ryan comes up and orders a seven and seven with eight Maricino cherries, sugar on the rim, blended if you

can. And then doesn't Jim say, oh, that's still going on. That's still going on, huh? He has perfect line. It's perfect. Well, at 14 minutes and 46 seconds, Michael goes up to Billy Merchant. And we did not talk about this scene and I have some info here. Okay. Michael says to Billy, your nurse is hot. To which Billy says, she's not my nurse. She's my girlfriend. And Michael says, your nurse became your girlfriend. Sweet. And Billy says, she was never my nurse. I met her at Chili's. All right. We had someone write in and I am so sorry, sir. I lost your name. Okay. If you hear this, you know who you are. There's only one person who wrote in and I cannot, could not find the email again. But they wrote

in to say is Billy Merchant's girlfriend, the same woman who played the hostess Megan from Chili's and the client. Remember in the client, we loved how Michael kept remembering that the hostess name was Megan. He was like, Megan, Megan. Okay. Okay. No. It is not Megan from Chili's from the client, but it is the same actress who played the waitress at Chili's in Dundee's. What? And her name is Amanda Warren. This actress Amanda Warren. She was a background performer in the Dundee's episode. She played a waitress and we hired the same actress to play Billy Merchant's girlfriend in Casino Night. That's some good continuity. Good continuity. Come on, some good continuity. And by the way, thank you, Kentopedia, for

doing that deep dive on our casting file to get me the answer to that question. No, Kentopedia. Well at 15 minutes, 51 seconds, Michael sits down at the poker table to play No Limit Texas Hold'em. Michael goes all in against Toby. Toby calls. Michael gets really mad. Toby shows a pair of jacks and then Michael folds his cards and storms away from the table. We have a fan question from K. Gooth as a poker player. Did it bother Jenna that when Toby calls Michael's all in, Michael just leaves even though he could still win? Yes. Yes, K. Gooth. Yes, it bothered me a lot. Also in the script, it said that Michael turns over his cards revealing a 9 and a 10, which means he could have won by landing a straight,

right? If he gets a straight, that's going to beat Toby's two jacks. Here's the thing. You never walk away from the table. In the scene, Michael doesn't reveal his cards. He just folds his cards. So I guess we're left to presume that they were really awful, but you never know what you're going to get on the flop on the turn and the river. You never walk away from your hand. Thank you, K. Gooth. It did bother me. K. Gooth, none of that made sense to me. None of what Jenna said made sense to me, but I'll tell you what I'm going to take away from it. I am not walking away from the table. There you go. Thank you. Angela, at 20 minutes, 23 seconds, I don't think we discussed Creed's stealing of the poker

chips, which becomes a bit of a runner. Yeah, it's a total runner throughout the episode. And as far as I can tell, Angela Martin is the only person that really clocks it, right? Yeah, but then you don't say anything. I don't say anything. You think that's interesting? Angela, do you think that your character, because your character clocks a lot of things. Do you keep a little file? Oh, do you think maybe you file that away somewhere for use later? I think that's one of the things Dwight and I have in common. He's tracking all kinds of stuff. And so am I. And so when the two of us think that we're going to have power together, we're like, oh, we own these people. Oh, you guys definitely have some secret files.

For sure. Well, lady, I think we should bring Ken on because now I have questions for him. Same. Here's what we're going to do. We'll take a break, and then we will be back with the director of Casino Night and many other episodes. Ken Cuepas. Go ahead. And go ahead to break. Ken Cuepas. Hello. Ken Cuepas is here, everybody. We are so thrilled to have you. I am so happy to be here. Ken, you and I share a hometown. We do. And I have a very distinct memory about one of our first meetings. So I went to an all boys high school in St. Louis, St. Louis University High School. All boys. And the only girls I met in high school came from two sister schools, Ursuline Academy and Narrings. And those were the girls who

like were actors in our plays. Yes. So anyways, when you and I auditioned, I remember having this moment where I thought, wow, this woman has such a weird Catholic girl vibe going on here. She reminds me of like the girls I knew from Narrings High School. And that's where you went. That's where I went to school. Yes. And the only boys I knew came from St. Louis University High School to be in our place. No, it was the weirdest, most random thing. And but obviously there's a there's an important St. Louis contingent on the show, obviously. There's a huge one. It's you guys and Ellie and Phyllis. Am I missing anyone else? Rusty Momwood, our first AD. Rusty. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I really wasn't aware of

how many people were from St. Louis until the World Series. That one season when everyone was watching, remember, it was like, I'm going to get it wrong. But anyway, I just remember you guys were really intense about baseball. And I was like, why? You guys were all from St. Louis, right? It was a bad World Series that year for the Cardinals. Oh, yeah, we all are so quiet. I thought I was bringing up a really great memory. You guys are like silent. I'm like, what's happening? Okay, sorry. Okay. Okay. Well, Ken, we always like to ask our guests how they came to be a part of the office. And you were our first director. You directed our pilot. We'd love to hear how that happened. Well, I, you know, I did

not know Greg before the show. I, I met with him. I had an interview with him. I was actually very nervous to meet him because I knew his work. I really admired him. I also was nervous because like, so many people said, this is a terrible idea to remake this show with the office. And so I went into this job interview with these, all these different feelings, including like, you know, what if I get this job? This is this, this is an impossible task, making this beloved show. And I don't remember much of the meeting except for one thing. And that is Greg asked me when I thought of the British show, I said, I really loved it, but that I was completely confused about the layout of the paper company in the British show.

I just found it totally, I couldn't figure out where, you know, where people sat or anything like that. And I remember even in the meeting thinking, this is a really bad move on my part, you know, like you, in theory, you know, you hire a director because they have, I don't know, visual sense. And here I was basically saying, I'm like, spatially challenged. And Greg, to my delight, he goes, Oh yeah, I'm totally confused about that too. And then we, we were sitting, I don't know where the meeting took place, but we were sitting on a sofa. And then we kind of scrunched down next to the coffee table and got pieces of paper and pens and started like drawing like we were a couple of kids, we were like drawing what we

imagined the original paper company layout was like. So that was I think the turning point of the meeting. Oh my gosh, I love that story. I guess that, you know, it's, it's a little bit the lesson of, you know, sometimes it's okay just to admit what you don't know, I guess. It really speaks to Greg too, because I could see Greg getting a bunch of paper and saying, let's draw it. Let's figure it out. Oh, that's exactly what it was. The two of us just like little kids drawing for a while. So when you got the job then, how did you approach building the Dunder Mifflin world? Did you scout real offices? Cause you know, our first location was that real office in Culver City. How did you choose your space? Well, the space, as I recall,

the office suite that we shot in was just this kind of shuttered office, you know, there was nothing going on. It was basically a big empty rectangle. There was nothing in it really. And I remember a lot of questions that Greg and I, you know, batted back and forth, including should there be dividers between the desks? Should there be cubicles? And, you know, or sure if there are dividers, should they be low enough that you could, people could still kind of see each other over them? And, and we decided, you know, happily to have no dividers except accounting and accounting, which is also a very bizarre divider because you can still staring at each other. Well, you know, I have my theory. I have my theory that Angela Martin

requested that because she needed a buffer between her and Kevin because he's, you know, he's a little smelly. I remember even when we decided it would be glass, it was like, well, what's the point of having that divider? But I think it was just sort of, we wanted some sense of that somebody was in a cubicle, the kind of thing. And, but I do remember spending a lot of time thinking about the relationship between Pam's chair and Jim's chair. That actually was something that I played around a bunch with different ways that I mean, Pam's, you know, your, your reception area was always where it was. But it was a question of where would Jim sit? And I, you know, and it seems now like, how could it not be what it was? But I love the idea that

you were, you always look at Jim and Jim has to turn to look at you. It's like the simplest thing, but I thought that somehow the way your desks related would help tell the Pam Jim story. And so I love, nothing makes me happier than some of the shots we did where like John's in profile in the foreground and you're in the background, Jenna, like gazing at him. And he either is unaware that you're looking at him or he's completely pretending to be unaware. And he knows very well that you're looking at him. So I just feel like that was actually something that was like a key moment in setting, setting up the Dunder Mifflin world. I love that. Sure. And that would have been totally different if, if Jim sat where Dwight

sits. Yeah, they'd be staring at each other all the time. Oh, I love that. And the other thing, you know, I was thinking about our, you know, morning at 30 minute exercise where, you know, that actually that exercise was inspired by Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant. They said that when they shot the British show that every morning or occasionally they would just stop and do what they called general views. And they were basically different establishing shots. And so when we did it, I didn't really think about it at the time, but I really feel like it sort of set the tone for the day in that once we kind of segwayed into a scripted scene after, you know, a half hour of shooting shots of, I don't know, you know, like Angela, you, you know,

doodling a picture of a cat or something. Like when we segwayed into a scripted scene, everyone kind of maintained that sense of just being like under observation, you know, nobody was doing a scene. It was that's, you know, everyone was still sort of being, I was still just eavesdropping on these characters as opposed to, oh, let's do a scene. Yeah. You know, the other thing that was great, I mean, none of the phones on the set worked, obviously, they were all dummy phones, but it kind of gave some of the cast members who didn't have dialogue in the pilot, like Phyllis didn't have, doesn't have a line of dialogue in the pilot. But when we were doing our morning exercise, she was like on this fake phone, improvising a sales call. And so I remember

actually filming her. And so it was kind of a great way to, for all of the cast members to start to find their voice, even if they didn't have words in the script. Well, Ken, one of the things I remember as well, just was watching you and our camera operator watching you and Randall sort of like scope out the look of the scene. And we would rehearse for the crew and you guys would watch and your eyes dart back and forth, back and forth from who's talking and you're looking around. And I would find myself if I didn't have lines in the scene, I would only watch you. I would watch you watching the scene, figuring out where you wanted the camera to be and how you wanted to tell the story. Well, I can't speak for other directors. And obviously,

the show, there's so many great directors who worked on the show. But I, for me, it was always critical to stand next to the camera, not to be off watching at a monitor. And part of what excited me was because I was standing next to the camera, I could see everyone who wasn't on camera. And so, for instance, like Jennifer, we were looking at you, but Angela, I caught something that you were doing out corner of my eye. If we did another take, I might say, you know, find Angela at some point. So it just gave me a sense of where we might look. I mean, Greg put it really well when he was on the podcast, when he talked about Booze Cruise. And he talked about, I mean, among Greg's many talents is the way he sort of empowers

the camera operator. And he, you know, sort of encouraging the operator to kind of get curious about what's going on, to look for things, to find things, to kind of get interested. And I think that's such a, I mean, it's such a fantastic way to approach the camera operating. But for me, at the beginning, it was mostly I just needed to figure out what else could the camera fine take to take. Anyways, that's a long, a long, long way of answering the question. No, I loved that. The other thing that I loved was the idea that the camera would be, quote, in the wrong place. So we did, we didn't do this a lot as time went on. But at the beginning, there were a few times where, for instance, like, Jennifer, I was on you, but Angela,

you had a line. And then we whip over, but we'd get to you too late, Angela. So we arrived just for like a dead bit of dead air. So we'd get there and couldn't get the line. So I occasionally, it was great to kind of choreograph some of those missteps a little bit. There's a lot of great times where it just feels like deliberately the camera is not quite ready for what's about to happen. I was looking at diversity day again, because I wanted to see, you know, Pam falling asleep on Jim's shoulder, which may be like my favorite scene that I directed in the whole series. I love that scene so much. But what's nice about it is, and I'm sure it's Randall, that when, Jenna, when you lean over onto John's shoulder, we're not quite framed for you. And

so suddenly the camera sort of like quickly zooms into a tighter shot. But at the beginning, it's kind of just a kind of a loose frame with the two of you and maybe a couple other people. Yeah. I wanted to ask you, Ken, about marks on the ground. So when I came out to LA and I had my theater degree, I took a bunch of on camera acting classes. And the big thing I learned was how to hit your mark. And a mark is a piece of tape on the ground that the actor must walk to and stand on because the camera has meticulously measured the distance from the mark to the camera so that everybody's in focus. And like hitting your mark was a thing that I was constantly nervous about as an actor. And I remember coming in on the pilot and asking, where is my mark?

Because I'm now a professional actress on a television show and I must hit my mark. It's the one thing I learned from my classes. Ask where your mark is. So I'm like, where is my mark? And you said no marks. The actors shall have no marks. And so I was like, no marks. What did I spend that $350 on? But wait, I have a question though. Did it feel weird to not know where you were supposed to stand at times? It was such a relief because it freed me up. I had started every scene as an actor on camera, not thinking about where did I just come from? What's my emotional life? What am I doing in this scene? I started every scene with, am I standing on my mark? Like that's what was going through my head was, did I stand on it properly? I think I'm off.

Should I look down? I looked down. Did it look obvious? So it was so wonderful that I wasn't worried about where I was standing. You would just say, just land in this general area. You know, walk over to Jim's desk somewhere between here and here. Wherever you land, we'll find you. An important part of that is that we had a lighting plan that for the most part meant that you could land anywhere and you would be equally lit. That's the key. I mean, I would say there's nothing against marks because if we're doing a scene where we have some complicated lighting going on, you do occasionally need to actually hit the right spot. Yeah, you can't be too far off or there will be no light on you.

But I think that that was part of it. But the other part of it was just the idea that generally that we were never staging things for the camera. Well, we were. We were always staging things for the camera, but we were creating the illusion that we were simply sort of observing what was going on as opposed to choreographing something for the lens. You know, I just love the idea that we had to follow you. We were the documentary team. We came in each day. We don't know what you guys are going to do and we're just gathering footage. Well, speaking of documentary crew, Ken, one more thing that you established. I'm not sure if we've shared this with people about the talking heads that you can sat in the place of the documentarian. So when we started

and then with every director that followed you, you sat next to the camera and asked us a question before we delivered our talking head. And early on, especially Ken, you would start our talking heads by asking us general questions about our life, about our weekend, and you would sort of gently lead us to a prompt that would then get us to deliver our scripted talking head. And that was kind of an exercise that we did in the beginning. But I think a lot of times people don't know this. You deliver things like that to like a piece of tape or to a tennis ball that you're just meant to look at so that your eye is in the right place. But you were like, no, I want you to deliver this to me, a human being and look at me and have a conversation

with me. I thought that was such a brilliant decision and it helped us so much. It helped so much. And I think you guys listening out there, when we sat in the chair, we were immediately in character and we didn't know what Ken was going to ask us. And it really for me helped me discover so much about Angela Martin. It was sort of like this acting exercise, Ken. Well, one of the things I thought about was the fact that a lot of the talking heads were very short. I mean, some of the most wonderful talking heads are like just one line. So it felt like, I mean, for me, the challenge is like, how do you make one line feel like it's part of a conversation? In theory, if I'm the documentary filmmaker, I did ask you a bunch of questions and then

in the editing room, pulled this one line out. So it was just a question of, and by the way, it was actually hard for me because I had to come up with different questions before teeing up the scripted line. And I wasn't even sure what I was going to ask. But it just mainly was a way to keep it conversational. But I thought it was also important that as characters, that everyone started to develop a relationship with the quote, documentary team. But I just felt like the documentary team is like important off-camera characters in the show. Yeah. I used to love being surprised by your questions. Like I have a memory one time you said to me, what do you think about Kevin? Those are the type of questions you'd ask. And I was like,

I try not to think about Kevin. You want to ask some of the questions of the people wrote in? Yes, let's ask some fan questions here. Ken, a lot of people wrote in wondering which episode was the most rewarding or the most challenging. I feel very blessed because I got to direct a lot of significant stories and certainly a lot of important Pam and Jim stories. And I would say the most challenging for different reasons. The fire was very challenging because we spent so much time in the parking lot and it was like 150 degrees. It was the hardest so hard. And Boo's cruise, I love so much. But boy, that boat was not fun. Here's a question. What would you consider the most underappreciated moment in the show? That's a big question. Wow. That's tough.

Wow. Let me think about that. Well, here's a moment or a short scene from the pilot that I always point to as to me one of the best scenes certainly in the pilot is the scene towards the end between John and David when they're leaning on Pam's desk after she has left and they're just leaning and not talking to each other and it goes on forever. And it's just this weird scene of dead air but there's such tension between them. And finally, I can't remember John's line but he starts to engage with David and then David just walks away. It is the it is the oddest little scene. But I love how beautifully like it's very tense and there's not a word and they're not even looking at each other. I just find that that would fall under a great underappreciated

moment. I love that moment and it felt so real like in watching it and Jim tries and then Roy's like I'm out. Just walks away. Oh yeah. I love moments like that. We got this question from Justin Sweeney. Justin asked as a director, how do you balance telling actors what to do versus empowering actors to be creative and make their own decisions? You're so good at this, Ken. You're very good. I feel like part of my job as a director is just to simply create an atmosphere where people feel loose and people feel like they can kind of play or you know or fall on their face or make a fool of themselves. I mean I just feel like part of it is is trying to really not be in any way shape or form kind of judgmental in my mind and just sort of like and sort of

you know just kind of love people into their best work and so it's not a specific thing. It's more just kind of and I also feel it's very important to be near the actors, to not be often and I mean obviously this is the case in the office but you know I don't want to be off in another room looking at a video monitor. I want to be near the actors so that when you call a cut the actors look up and you're the first person they see. I've talked to so many actors who work with directors who were sequestered at a video monitor a half a mile away and they say that you know after calling cut they don't hear they get no notes they hear it's radio silence so you're kind of at sea wondering what you know how am I doing so for me so much of it is just being

you know near the cast. I'm also kind of awed by actors by the way and I should I'm not an actor at all so I'm just sort of a little bit you know just kind of awed watching. I feel like I have the best seat in the house here. There's one thing I do want to mention about Steve. I know on the Booz Kuru's episode you talked about how you know you were talked about his intensely great you know work ethic and the fact that he was shooting a movie at the same time we were doing the Booz Kuru's and what I remember in there at the beginning of the series is I always tried to get to the set before anyone else to kind of figure out what I was going to do during the day and Steve was already always already there and he was in Michael Scott's office with the door

closed and he was just thinking about the day's work and he was like he was there before everyone and I thought wow that's that's a pretty cool it's a cool signal for Steve not that this was his intention but what a great signal to send everyone in terms of like being serious about your work. Yeah can you would give me a piece of direction that you gave me more than once and I am convinced it was a Jedi mind trick. Oh I know it I know it. I would do a scene a couple of times and then you would come up to the reception desk and you would say Jenna on this next one what if you you know what never mind go ahead and I would think what if I want what if I want what what was he going to say. Oh my god you're on to me. Is it is it a Jedi mind trick Ken?

It it it kind of is yes. What is the purpose of it is it to what what are you doing there? I think maybe the the purpose is to clear your mind. Yeah maybe. I do remember once Steve and I were working on a scene in the episode company picnic and there was just a lot of discussion as there often was you know with the writers between takes and I could tell that Steve actually was a little like felt a little overloaded over noted maybe that's the right way to put it he was over noted and I remember before one take I said okay Steve what I what I want you to do in this next take is like wipe the whole blackboard clean that was all I said that and he goes oh good he was very relieved so well you know Ken I had done an improv pilot

that didn't go and I had done a few commercials but this was my first steady gig as an actor and I remember feeling such comfort when you would say go ahead like just go ahead and it's something the whole cast has always talked about how you would just say go ahead and it was like just you don't scream action yeah you do it for our audience Ken we've talked about it will you do it um uh go ahead there's a lot of different no no there there's a lot of different versions of go ahead by the way there are no that's true in like really emotional scenes like there was always a lot of support in your go ahead for Pam you'd be like go ahead like it's okay like giving you would give me permission go ahead there's a there's a lot of like going back to the Jedi

mind trick there are also a few versions where it's like I'm about to say something and then I just say go ahead where it's like when uh yeah no go ahead yes yes you do that with your hand you'd be like yeah you know what never never mind go ahead and you'd be like what's happening Ken and I got to work together again on Black AF for Netflix and you got to say go ahead and I got to hear it and it'd been so long I almost like in the scene my character wasn't supposed to cry in that moment but I was like oh my god I'm tearing up I'm tearing up because Ken just said go ahead by the way one of the wonderful things about uh that show and our work on that show Black AF is I got to uh see you do improv in a way that I hadn't done the office because that was a lot of

improvisation and of course as you both know everyone always asks how much the office was improvised and of course you know it mainly was just brilliantly written to sound improvised yes well listen you guys should we get into casino night yeah so casino night received critical praise I found that in a 2011 poll conducted by the fan site office tally fans voted casino night as their favorite all-time office episode that had aired at the time did you have any idea while you were directing it that it would be received like that did you know you were directing this monumental episode within the series I had no idea that I mean you really are not sure how anything is going to come together when you're in the middle of it and and what's so good about

casino night is again I feel like there's so many uh story elements that are just working so well and and I also watching it again I you know I forgot how much of the story is about romance you know there's there's the Dwight Angela the beginning of that romantic story um and obviously Pam and Jim but also you know Michael and Jan and Carol and also seeing I can't remember how much we've seen bob fans before casino night but just seeing the two of them together I don't know I feel like there's there's there's all this you know romance in the air in this story so I really love that it was kind of a date night in a way for a lot of the couples oh yeah Ryan and Kelly as well yeah Ryan and Kelly absolutely all those maraschino cherries

and I I um I have so many favorite moments from casino night but I have to there's like a couple of tiny ones I I'd love to they're so tiny but I love them so much and one of them and Angela you talked about it after you slapped Dwight and walk away that tiny little moment before you exit frame it's so small it's so beautiful and and it's so great that Randall kept capturing it take after take but what I also love in that shot is that you see both yours and rain's reaction at once it's a very energetic shot because you're watching you're you're kind of keeping an eye on both of you at once it's really great the other tiny little moment is is right before the first Daryl talking head that's when Steve says Dinkin Flicka and we cut to Craig and he gives a tiny

tiny look to the camera before we cut to his talking head it's barely noticeable but it's so great it's almost as if did the camera just see that like it's such a great little moment and so there's a lot of little beautiful little grace notes like that in the episode you had mentioned that scene with Jan and Jim out by the car and then you positioned that very deliberately can you talk about that yeah I actually I haven't reread the scene description I'm sure I just said that they were standing outside talking but I and they may have actually found this on their own they may have literally just leaned against the car hood side by side and then rehearsed it who knows how that it landed but when I saw it it felt so sexy it felt like wow this feels and plus you know

Malora's smoking a cigarette and Malora is sexy though she's so beautiful you know oh she's no she's she's very sexy and but she's also in that scene she's she's you know such a not good mood which to me actually made me feel even more that this would play as an interesting mislead for the audience oh maybe she's going to you know maybe they're good I don't know something's going to happen with these two and it just felt like that somehow just the two of them just leaning casually against a car hood just felt like it was the right way to go and I also I'd loved it when you did the Casino Night podcast that you you talked about Jan's overnight bag in your car and I loved Jenna what you said you said the camera finds her overnight bag

and I was so delighted when you said that because in fact the camera doesn't find it she holds it up for us to see and I and I remember this I had a big discussion with Malora that night because in the script in in Steve's script it says she tosses the what appears to be an overnight bag over her shoulder into the backseat and and the first take or two that's what she did she just threw it over her shoulder and I thought oh well I have no clue what it is that she just threw back there what is that so I and this is like this tricky acting challenge I said you know what I hate to say it I think you need to kind of hold it up for me to see what it is before you throw it and so we had a discussion about why would she pause and look at it and and

we I remember talking to her about you know you this that this bag is like taunting you it's like sort of you know it's like just making fun of you like you know and so she did it so gracefully and and and it feels completely natural even though it's a totally stagey moment I would have had I had no idea I mean we watched it we had no idea yeah I thought it was totally organic I I mean that's brilliant on your part and Malora's part well Malora Malora pulled it off it's so beautiful one of my favorite shots is so not a documentary type shot and I just love it it's the shot of uh Jan and Carol side by side at the bar and Steve's in the background and he notices them and then he slinks out a frame and he's framed sort of it's a very formal very you know

he like it's sort of very funny shot but he's framed right in between them he slinks out a frame and then moments later he reappears deep in the background and he's still like sort of monitoring them and it's like such a hilarious shot I don't have any clue what and they're having a dialogue Jan and Carol I have no clue what they're talking about all I'm doing is watching Steve like screwing around in the background they're ordering their drinks and uh let's see um Carol gets very tense small talk yeah that's what they're doing that's what is tense small talk but I just totally every time I see this shot I go oh shit I should listen to that dialogue once in a while I'm just looking at Steve now was it was I wonder if it was in the script that Steve was pacing in the

background or if that was something you guys found on the day to fill out that scene the scene description says Michael approaches in the background sees the two of them talking and turns on his heels and what Steve did is that he his his back is to them for most of the shot and then he turns and then he doesn't know what to do and then he leaves frame and it's the reappearing in the deep background he's really funny I love that so much he's like sort of stalking them a little he he doesn't know what to do about this this is like way too much action for him another favorite memory of mine is when Creed wins the refrigerator and because I remember uh staging it so that Creed's off camera and he had to load up his sleeve full of poker chips and he had to

hold his hand up so or else they'd fall and and as I recall the camera was on Bob and Phyllis Bob Vance and Phyllis and and as soon as Bob announces that Creed's the winner on as the camera whipped over I like gave Creed a hand signal so that he could lower his arm and let the chips all fall out I always I very fond memory of making sure he had his the chips up in his sleeve so Ken we talked a lot about all of the Jim Pam scenes in our Casino Night podcast and John was on and he was able to give his point of view but we had a fan write in Jess Marie asked why did you decide to not let Jenna and John talk to one another before their kiss on Casino Night what was what was in your head there when you were setting up that moment well I felt and I know you and I

talked about this Jenna but we shot the kiss actually the night before we shot the parking lot scene that blew my mind by the way like when when I found that out I was like well I mean I the reason is just a practical one and that was it was the end of the week and we saved our night exterior work for Friday night yeah that's that's all it was so I felt like it was hard because how do you go into the kiss without having experienced that parking lot scene how do you how do you prepare for it how do you and so it seemed to me that maybe having some distance between the two of you might help create I don't know just just this feeling that you're kind of off balance because you hadn't done the scene obviously we'd read the scene we had a table reading

but we didn't rehearse the parking lot scene so it was so in a way I was I was I just sort of felt like and I'm sure Greg and I discussed this and he may have had a different idea but I just remember thinking well since we didn't do the scene which was which is really that you know kind of the turning point in their relationship when you know Jim declares that he loves Pam and and and it throws everything you know it upends everything since we hadn't done that if there might be a way just to kind of again create a little tension well it really worked because John told on the podcast that he was like what happened to Jenna where's Jenna he was like is she mad at me what's going on yeah where did she go and I was in my trailer just sort of sitting there feeling very separate

from the crew and normally we you know normally we didn't spend a lot of time in our trailers we sat on set with the crew while they did their lighting or we were snacking at the snack table and chatting with people so to be sequestered really did create a whole new experience well also I mean once we got into the scene I mean the the lighting was so moody and obviously the you know the crew was hidden and I think and I listened to you know you're you're talking with John about this and he's you know he's right it was weird because I was also trying to like underplay the whole thing and you know and Jenna you and I have talked about this that I was trying to make as little of it as possible even though the call sheet that day said in like all caps

Jim kisses Pam and but I I I do feel like it was important that you guys be off balance yeah it worked it worked I mean beautifully so I also remember the discussion about whether to have a second camera to capture in effect your side of the kiss Jenna and I and and and I do remember as you you guys mentioned that Randall was totally opposed to it and he's you know absolutely right there should definitely only be one camera and what I also remember though was I had a I was wrestling with whether or not to ask John to come further into the room when he came towards you because if he did it became in effect it became downstage a little more it would force you to open up the camera and the shot would then be like the two of you in complete profile facing

each other and you know it's like how do you how do you shoot it how do you stage it how do you photograph a kiss and that's you know very classic Hollywood you know Ingrid Bergman and Humphrey Bogart facing each other on the tarmac you know it's like so but I decided at the last moment that that wasn't our show that would that would be that that would be too Hollywood-y for our show and so we shot it and I remember first of all I was probably you know crying watching the scene but I remember thinking that the other reason the camera angle was so good so appropriate was that Jim knows what he's about to do Jim has such a strong intention he's coming there to kiss Pam but that Pam is unaware of it and is surprised and we're surprised so the camera angle really

kind of puts us in Pam's shoes and and sort of we are Pam you know we're surprised by it as well so it felt like another angle would have really hurt the way we are involved in that moment but then we had to restage it oh my god I know that was so weird we had to wait all summer to find out Pam's reaction and then the only way to get it was to restage that whole moment was that so hard as a director to recreate a moment so that it seemed like it was just playing out I mean I kind of don't even know how we did it a lot of people wrote in asking wait did you film the beginning of gay witch hunt on the casino night you just waited and you saved the footage and it was like no we completely recreated it and let it play out I remember being surprised when I saw the gay

witch hunt script because we I mean we hadn't gotten I mean this script I don't think it was written when we shot casino night so and I do remember going oh my gosh we got to do that again because I thought it was such an emotional it was so you know it was so kind of draining for everyone not in a bad way but it was just emotional and but it I remember being a lot you know a lot breezier of a job to recreate it you know because the way you do is not nearly as heavy no no Ken thank you so much for coming on the podcast today thank you I had such a blast this is it's so great to see both of you and I just so happy I'm part of this show well you have to come back okay I mean listen we've got a few years here we're gonna be giving you up

with some questions okay well I will put in a request for when you get to company picnic Jenna I think we need to have a discussion about your volleyball skills yes we will have you back for company picnic for sure you guys I want to tell you that Ken is without a doubt one of the very best directors I've ever worked with I feel so fortunate to have worked with you Ken and he has a book coming out it is called but what I really want to do is direct lessons from a life behind the camera it comes out October 6th but it is available for pre-order now on Amazon I got an advanced copy so I've already read it oh please guys if you're an aspiring director if you want to know more about just the experience of what it's really like to direct please pick up Ken's book

but also I mean there's so much about your philosophy in this book that could really just be applied to life in general Ken it's it's a beautiful book thank you thank you it was such a pleasure to write and I'm so excited to get it out there I can't wait to get mine and then I'm gonna text you about it so get ready for your phone to blow up I have found a quote about your book from Larry Wilmore he's one of our writers and I'm gonna read it to everybody okay do it do it it says action is what most directors bark out to begin a scene but Ken Kuapis starts by gently intoning the words go ahead that simple suggestion assures everyone they're in smart capable humble hands and that's how you'll feel reading his book and so if you're anxious to discover how a top director

always brings humor honesty and humanity to his work all I can tell you is go ahead perfect Larry Wilmore that is so beautiful Ken and so true so true thank you thank you and all I can say is I'm gonna keep listening to this podcast I so enjoy weekly getting to listen to both of you so oh thank you well I'd love to come back good well we would love to have you back and guys we're gonna put Ken's book up on our website officeladies.com you can find it there but like we said it's also on Amazon but if you're looking for a quick link you can head over to our website and we will link to it there and in the show notes thank you Ken we love you love you I love both of you and I hope to see you soon

I mean who's better than Ken Kuapis nobody nobody he's the best he's the best I love him so much Ken I have saved several of your Christmas cards is that weird love you okay um so we have just a few more things to discuss Jenna okay Latimania wrote in and said something I'm curious about Pam often fussed with her engagement ring most noticeably when Jim walks away after his big confession was that a script direction or was that Jenna's own added touch Latimania you are always so thoughtful with your questions they always stand out to me thank you for asking you know Latimania is the artist who does all of the beautiful drawings of scenes from the office we've talked about her yes podcast before okay so that was not in the script

that is something I do in my life I'm a bit of a fidgeter but I did make a conscious decision for the character of Pam to fuss with her engagement ring to Roy while in that scene with Jim because you know that ring that she feels on her finger is why she's not saying what she really wants to say oh that's good lady that's so good so that was that was an acting choice I think that's so good well listen I loved that question I appreciated that you noticed my little acting choice there that means a lot to me actually I like that you know I tried to put those details into the character and into my performance and it always feels really good when people notice so thanks yeah also lady we got a ton of mail about your big brother kid sister bit with John I know

okay so and remember how you and John were talking on the podcast and you were trying to remember what the actual name of the boy doll was called and we couldn't remember yeah well a lot of people wrote in Karen Tom Kay Willy won all said the boy doll's name is my buddy and Angela not only that the original commercial is still on YouTube oh I know I went and watched it guys I went and watched it can we play a little bit of that there it is big buddy kid sister Angela my buddy my buddy not big you said big buddy oh my gosh my buddy we will never get we literally just listen to it and it's not landing on me but here's I can only hear big brother kid sister because that's what you and John did for so long on set but Angela here is what creeped me out when I

watched that commercial and I saw that doll my god it looks like you oh come on lady braid your hair and you are kid sister it is well John is who started it he said to me he called me kid sister and then clearly classic Kinsey I got it wrong and I went big brother instead of my buddy well he nailed it on kid sister because the resemblance is eerie well I guess I'm just gonna have to go get one don't get one it will scare people in your home if they come upon it it'll be like you putting a chucky doll in your house you can't do it I'm gonna get one and I'm gonna put it by my mailbox I thought you were gonna say you're gonna put it in my window or something and I'd be like ah what I think no I have to no don't you how do you how do you prank

someone in a pandemic that's how you get a creepy doll and set it outside their window a creepy doll that looks just like you yeah all right guys we also got some mail that is not specific to casino night okay why do some characters on the show have character names like Pam Jim Roy Dwight and some have their real names Oscar Creed Angela Phyllis we get this question I would say the most it's in the mail every single week yeah every single week so I feel like we have maybe answered this before but we want to take it again we do we answered it in one of our candy bag episodes but we're going to answer it here because we really feel like people want to know well listen you know we had asked Greg about this and he said obviously some characters are based on characters

from the original British office right Jim and Pam and Dwight and then there were these new characters and it was myself and Oscar they we weren't in the original and they just used our names and and just kind of it stuck I think what's interesting Angela did Greg ask your permission to use your name or did he just name you Angela no no one said anything the only conversation I ever remember having is he asked me if I had any pitches for my last name oh and and I did pitch Martin but this was several episodes in I was already Angela and then we were talking about well what what would your last name be and I I wrote down a list of them and one of them was Martin and that cleared is that significant to you in some way is Martin family name or something

no I just was trying to think I thought it was interesting that Kevin was Kevin Malone and Oscar was Oscar Martinez and then I'd be Angela Martin would be the three M's and then we for years had a running joke that our spin-off would be the accountants go have their own firm called M M and M I love it I love it well there you have it guys that's that's why some people have their real names and some people have character names nothing like their name yeah I think the writers just were like we'll use their names it's really not probably that interesting of a story but there you go guys thank you so much for sending in your questions this was so much fun I I loved this revisited episode Angela honestly one of our favorite things that that we do is get to read

comments and interact with you guys and I just love that I love the office Jenna and I obviously loved the show so we love getting to interact with fans that also loved it and have questions and comments and things that you caught that we missed I love all of it I also really like the idea of being able to deep dive with some of like the original visionaries for the show like we have to get Dave Rogers our editor we've got to get Carrie Bennett who designed our wardrobe season one in the beginning and and like Randall Einhorn our cinematographer kentopedia kentopedia we have to get kentopedia okay so yes I don't know what we're gonna call these but from time to time we're gonna give you what do we want to call it Angela a deep dive a revisited we'll figure it out you

you guys actually tell us if we do an episode like this again should we call it the deep dive or the revisited I like the deep dive well I mean you got a deep you got a dive you put them together get a deep dive no no no that's my son did that my son that's my son Angela and you're like no no that is horrible okay oh my gosh hilarious okay okay so guys keep sending in your questions we have folders over on office ladies comm to submit questions for specific episodes you can also send us an email at office ladies at your wolf comm yes we love engaging with you in our social media you can follow us over at office ladies pod on instagram and thank you so much to kin quapas and thank you guys so much for listening in yeah we'll be back next week with the merger

thank you for listening to office ladies office ladies is produced by ear wolf jenna fischer and angela kenzie our producer is cody fischer our sound engineer is sam keefer and our theme song is rubber tree by creed gratin for ad-free versions of the show and our bonus episodes candy bag go to stitcher premium dot com for a free one month trial of stitcher premium use code office