Oh What A Time... - #17 Plots

Episode Date: November 6, 2023

To mark the 418th anniversary of the discovery of the Gunpowder Plot we thought we'd bring you a Plots episode! We've got Guy Fawkes and his co-conspirators of course and joining them Catherine The Great and Washington Irving. And there's so many features for you to email us about: Interesting relatives? Prove an interesting fact to someone in 500AD? Historic jobs that are easy? ONE DAY TIME MACHINE? Send us your thoughts by emailing: [e-mail] Aaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? Oh and please follow us on Twitter at @ohwhatatimepod And Instagram at @ohwhatatimepod And thank you to Dr Daryl Leeworthy for his help with this week’s research. Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). And thank you for listening! We’ll see you next week! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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absolutely rubbish. I'm Chris Scull. I'm Tom Crane. And I'm Ellis James. Each week on this show we'll be looking at a new historical subject and today we're going to be discussing plots. From Catherine the Great to the infamous gunpowder plot to how the 19th century writer Washington Irvin got famous. This show has it all. What we got in there, we put out a massive request for correspondence last week across our multitude of different hot podcasting features. What have the audience come back to us with? Well, as usual, they've come up trumps. I'm going to kick things off with Matt Pomeroy, unless either of you have a problem with that.

Are you all right with that? Great surname. Love that. Yeah, isn't I? Pomeroy. Pomeroy! We've got a lot of listeners that sound like children who were in trouble Like at school in like 1930, 1940

Private schools in about 1950 Is that a frog in your pocket, Pomeroy? General was at the Battle of Waterloo Exactly Pomeroy thought they should advance And as a consequence, 10,000 men died Nice one, Pomeroy Pomeroy's battalion advance And as a consequence 10,000 men died Nice one Pomeroy Pomeroy's battalion

Infamously mowed down Within seconds of the Battle of Waterloo starting Pomeroy famously Fled as soon as his men Started getting mowed down And was caught drinking wine As his men died Nice one Pomeroy

And it all came down to the fact he he was four foot two, of course. That's what people think. It was a small man thing. And a real complex about it. He used to wear huge wooden shoes, didn't he, of course, in battle. Imagine if we were reeling. This is absolutely the bullseye of what Matt Pomeroy is like. He's now at home.

This is genuinely quite hurtful. Or he's like, have they met me? Have I met them they met me it wouldn't be not not that matt pomeroy his ancestors obviously yeah so the contemporary matt pomeroy has emailed us a suggestion for one day time machine britain's hotish format point play the jingle it's the one day time machine it's the one day time machine. It's the one day time machine. It's the one day time machine. It's the one day time machine. So here's Matt's suggestion. Matt has said, my choice would be to go back to May 1997

to the essential festival in Brighton to the time I met gangster rapper Ice-T. We all knew this day would come, didn't we, Chris Ellis? We all knew someday this email would come. Inevitably, one of our listeners will have met Ice-T. I assumed, May 97, he was going to be on the left and he was going to want to relive Blair's election victory. I did not see iced tea coming.

I would head to Michael Portillo's constituency and I would be on the front row as the results are read out. Well, you assume that's not where this email is heading now. It might be where he's going to take iced tea. You would make iced tea a member of the cabinet? Foreign secretary instead of Robin Cook? Iced tea. You would make iced tea a member of the cabinet? Foreign Secretary instead of Robin Cook? Iced tea. Anything goes in one day time machine.

Well, it says here, what I would do is, this time, when iced tea went to give me a fist bump, I wouldn't panic and shake his fist handshake style. Leaving me feeling like the most middle-class man on earth. It's haunted me to this day, and I've never felt cool in any way since. That's from Matt Pomeroy. So iced tea, went for the fist bump,

and good old Matt Pomeroy grabbed it and shook it up and down. Shake the fist bump. Oh, man, that is so bad. I could see why you want to use your one chance at a time machine to correct that error. Well, actually, that email from Pomeroy brings back terrible memories for me because on Fancy Football League, the reboot, which I present, which Tom is one of the brilliant writers on,

we used to have AJ Tracy as a guest. And AJ Tracy, this grime artist, is one of the brilliant writers on. We used to have AJ Tracy as a guest. And AJ Tracy, this grime artist, is one of the coolest men in Britain. And he used to fist bump me. And I've never been a fist bumper. It wasn't something that happened at school. High fives, obviously. I'm well aware of the whole high five scene.

So I just, I'd never done it. I'd sort of progressed from the high five to the handshake at about the age of 18. So I've been a handshaker like Pombroy for a very, very long time. Yeah. And we had AJ Tracy on the show twice and he was a great guest.

He's a massive Spurs fan. His mother is a Cardiff City fan, actually, interestingly, which was loads of fun. And because of his music career, I I mean whenever he was on the show people would would love it they'd lose their minds and we'd be in the little tunnel like at Wembley before you go onto the set and he would always fist bump me because I didn't know what to do I would always fist bump him back way too hard like you just you just meant you just basically meant to touch fists and before we'd go on set it was like i was trying to break his knuckles a real power play it was like we were boxers and facing off in the you know in the weigh-in

like or in a press conference. He would just sort of go, you know, touch. And I'd be like, yeah, bang! And it was only when Mence, who was the sort of the new statue, who obviously is young, he said to me, man, why the fuck are you fist bumping so hard? It's horrible. I was like, is that not what you do?

He's like no so now i can't i can't think of aj tracy without just wanting to dissolve with embarrassment so there we go that is matt pomroy who uh still is in shame after meeting iced tea charlie porter charlie porter has been in contact now last week in our episode about inventions i talked about the paternoster lift a lift which doesn't stop it goes round and round around people have to step on and step off at their own peril and we've had so many emails about the paternoster lift it's ridiculous people love them or hate them or fear them whatever they've got in contact to tell us about them and charlie porter has got in contact to say this hi guys if you're planning to visit a paternoster lift at any point

there's no need to go to germany or the czech republic and try and sneak past the barriers there's a paternoster lift in sheffield university's arts tower the paternoster is completely accessible to the public and whilst inefficient for long journeys is the quickest way to travel between two floors taking only 13 seconds sheffield's paternoster is made up of 38 two-person cars covers all 22 stories now this is a bit i like there's a game apparently students like to get on the lift and try to finish an entire bottle of wine before returning to the same but she's added although it's not encouraged students that is class you know um if you go to the top of a

Paternoster lift it kind of goes round at the very top and comes back down it's not like the vestibule isn't like crushed at the top is it you could potentially just ride it in a big loop for ages I mean take enough wine what a day

you'd need a chair wouldn't you? Yeah Lovely One of those big boxes of wine you get from like Why is it like Why have people down the years Always like sat in a bath of beans for charity

Surely just sat Sit in a vestibule of a Paternoster lift With a bottle of wine for 24 hours I'd sponsor someone for that Also Imagine the state you'd be in at the end. Yeah. When they stop the Paternoster lift

and you just stagger off and finish the box of wine. You eat nothing for 24 hours. Genuine question. I come up to you guys and go, okay, I'm going to do a thing for charity. I'm going to drink 12 Stella in a Paternoster lift. How much are you sponsoring me for that? I have to finish all 12 cans.

A grand. A grand. What would you do if David Blaine revealed his next stunt was that he's going to live in a Paternoster lift for a month? Yeah. Just going round and round. And Eamon Holmes would get him on morning television and say, what are you going to do about the toilet, David? And David would just stare at him.

And he'd be like, I'll go like a cat. I will bury my waist on the Paner and Arsenal lift. Well, you talk about that fear of going over the top there, Chris, and, you know, what could happen. Emma from Sheffield has also got in contact. We'll close this bit of correspondence. Because there is a big fear that when you go over the top, there's this long-held rumour here that the carriage is flipped upside down

when they went over, but that is not true. Basically what happens is they just go into the dark. There's a lot of mechanical noise. Apparently it's really, really scary. And then you do come down the other side. That's what happens. If you're one of the chosen ones. Yeah, exactly.

Otherwise you just get mashed. Just get flattened. And emerge pizza, sort of like pizza-sized death. It says here, it was also the host, she's added this for Sheffield University, the Paternoster Lift at Sheffield University was also the host for a number added this for Sheffield University, the Paternoster lift at Sheffield University was also the host for a number of university-wide cultural events,

including a Halloween event where ghosts and zombies hid in the carriages during the day, a conceptual dance piece performed between carriages, and its most consistent feature was breaking down at least weekly, resulting in the maintenance staff having to go to each floor with a ladder and having to fish out the folk that was stuck between the floors. Which he said is terrifying the first time, just annoying every time after. I think if something's breaking down that regularly, I said it last week, I'm going with the stairs.

I think that's what I'm going with. When I was about eight, I went to a place called Ships and Castles Swimming Pool in Helston, Cornwall. That morning, my dad bought some incredibly cheap swimming shorts made of material that has never been seen in any other swimming shorts. I don't know what the material was. What, pita bread? Well, it might as well have been,

because when he went down the first water slide, it turns out they were so grippy that he got stuck. He couldn't move down the water slide. What do you mean? It was like rubber. What they made of rubber or something? They had to send a rescue team. They had to send a teenager who worked for the swimming pool down the slide

in normally slippy shorts to shove my dad down the rest of the way. And you could see the silhouette of him. It was sort of vaguely transparent, the slide. So I was stood downstairs and I could see my father moving slowly down. It was so undignified. It took, like, I'm not going to lie, it was about four minutes to get him down. And he came out at the end.

It could have been worse. It could have been a paternoster. So there we are. So Emma in Sheffield, thank you very much for that. And also Charlie Porter. That's amazing. Sheff there we are. So Emma in Sheffield, thank you very much for that. And also Charlie Porter. That's amazing. Sheffield Uni, if you live near Sheffield and want to see a Paternoster, that is the place to go.

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and absolutely every play in between is amazing. From football to basketball and hockey to baseball, whatever the moment, it's never ordinary at Bet365. Must be 19 or older, Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you or someone you know has concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca. Well, because we're discussing plots this week

I will be talking about probably one of the more famous plots certainly in the UK I mean it's a huge part of British culture I'm going to be talking about the gunpowder plot I'm going to be talking about how a now very famous author in the early 19th century

managed to make himself famous and I'll be talking to you about Catherine the Great of Russia. Firstly, I think you've done well in life if your nickname is The Great. Yes, and also she's done very well in life. The image of Catherine the Great would be so different if she'd been called Cath the Great. Or Cathy the Great would be so different if she'd been called Kath the Great. Or Cathy the Great. Certainly Kath.

One thing I find weird about Catherine the Great, you know her heir, her son, was called Paul. Paul I of Russia. Paul! I feel for Paul, also there's a sort of pressure in your life if your mum's the Great. That feels like if your parent ever refers to them as The Great... Paul the Average.

Yeah, exactly. Poor old Paul. I wanted to start as well talking about... While I've been researching Catherine the Great, there's a song by The Divine Comedy that's just been going round and round in my head. I sent it to you boys. Did you check it out?

Did you catch a bit of it? I did listen, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's my favourite song about someone from history. And in fact, I'm going to drop it a little bit here because I love it's my favourite song about someone from history and in fact I'm going to drop it a little bit here because I love it so much Let's talk of Catherine the Great

Let's talk of love and the power of the state She was a crazy spontaneous girl Everyone paid homage to her Catherine the Great There were few brainier

Just ask the King of Lithuania She could dictate what went on anywhere She had great hair and a powerful gait Catherine the Great That was the Divine Comedy, Catherine the Great. Is there any... I'm trying to think of songs that are that good about historical subjects.

Maybe the listeners can chip in on this. Rasputin by Boney M would be the one that comes to mind. The Manics, obviously. They used to... If you tolerate this, your children will be nexus about the Spanish Civil War. Is it really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No way! If I can shoot rabbits, I can shoot fascists. Oh, wow. I must admit, despite having heard that about 500 times, I've taken none of that in. I'd like to apologise to the manics if they are listening. Do you know what? That is the kind of behaviour I would expect from Paul the Average.

They're sitting up on Tom the Great. Well, if you know, if you're listening to this and you know any good songs about historical subjects, I'd love you to chip in on that. Hello at OhWhatATime.com. Right. Catherine the Great. Lots of rumours about Catherine the Great. Have you heard the rumour that she died

while sleeping with a horse? Have you heard that rumour? No. Oh, God, no. Well, it's not true. Well, I'm here to say it's not true. Okay, good. But that rumour did knock about. She was born in modern-day Poland, then part of the Kingdom of Russia,

and she met her husband, Grand Duke Peter, when she was 10 years old. And Grand Duke Peter, history has not been kind to that fella. When Catherine the Great met him at 10 years old, she detested him immediately. This is what she would write later on. She hated the fact that he was so pale.

Lots of remarks made about the fact. I was thinking that's such a damning thing to say about someone. Like when the historical record is picked up and it says, oh, he was very, he was a pale man like straight away you get an image yeah also back then wasn't everyone paid i don't think anyone was sort of rocking a like incredible magaluf tan were they was that a thing that you got in russia i mean i reckon i reckon uh peter the Great's husband, Peter, he was probably tanned. He was probably very, very pale for 11 months of the year and then in July, terribly sunburned.

He'd just come back from holidays. It was pre-lotion as well, wasn't it? So, yeah, she met him at 10, detested him him immediately hated the fact he was so pale they they uh she moved to russia at age 15 and got married at the age of 15 in st petersburg where she got she was changed her name from princess sophie to catherine growing up she was regarded as a bit of a tomboy and was known to be quite good with a sword is that a good thing i don't know if i'm a kind of russian prince if you're quite pale and meek having a wife who's double hard that feels like like wouldn't be a good match well it depends how you if how relations

are you're getting on then it's i'd love to have a protector with a sword if i lived at that in that time period exactly what i would require to survive tom that's what you have now yeah her sword being that she understands mortgage repayments and just general life stuff so quite soon into the marriage she realized she was way more intelligent than poor old Grand Duke Peter. She quite quickly realised she could outmanoeuvre him in court. And so she set about learning. One thing she did was she really wanted to ingratiate herself in Russian culture, so she would stay up all night

in the freezing cold in the castle she was living in, learning Russian. And she got so cold frequently that she was uh she nearly died of pneumonia wow she credits her survival to bloodletting so here's here's an account of someone who said bloodletting worked for me yeah i don't want to suggest she's a hypocrite but i think if you're living in a tower in the freezing cold you've got pneumonia and you're bloodletting you're looking pretty pretty pale yourself, aren't you? Yeah, exactly. Once again, it feels like a strange thing to have a problem with.

I guarantee that she was translucent, basically. Yeah. There's lots of accounts that Peter and Catherine do not get on. They're staying at opposite ends of the castle and they do not consummate the marriage for years. A lot of pressure on the first time if it's years in the making oh my god you've got to get that right do you say opposite ends of the castle you're saying they live in different bedrooms and then they and they didn't consummate

it until until one night when they both they both happened to leave their chambers at the same time fancying it and meeting in the middle. What are the chances? Catherine says they didn't consummate the marriage. This is an interesting turn of phrase. Due to his mental immaturity. That's what she says was the reason. Okay.

What does that mean? What is he doing just playing FIFA on the PlayStation all night? Yeah. He's always making fart jokes. He refuses to take anything seriously. They sit down at the banquet. It's a whoopee cushion. Yeah.

Here's Peter. Pull on your knickers. Is this itching? If you put itching powder in my knickers, yeah. Brilliant. Yeah, good one. Yeah, good one. She was always saying that. Good one.

Yeah. You're clearly not... I can see you're not removing your thumb properly. It's just your other thumb removing it away from your hand. It's obviously not the same thumb. You haven't got my nose, you fucking wanker.

I'm not shaking your hand. I know you've got an electric buzzer there. He seems like a fun guy. I like him, actually. I like this guy. I know. It's only glitter in that bucket, you twat.

Oh, poor old Peter. Peter. Peter, man. Honestly, Peter comes out of history horrifically. The other thing she says about him is he drinks way too much. So Peter's mum, Elizabeth of Russia, is the regent of Russia. And she basically allowed Catherine to have lovers once they'd produced an heir.

And that was the future, Paul I of Russia. So in the mum, it's like, oh. The mother-in-law's like, oh, go on then. I would far rather not be remembered than be remembered in that way. I would rather just disappear in history than be the in that way. I would rather just disappear in history than be the kind of person that people were taking the piss out of on podcasts

200 years after my death. You know, the old, I'd rather be talked about than not talked about at all, no matter how negative it is. I've never really subscribed to that notion. Poor old Peter as well. It was thought he was pretty much universally disliked at court.

He was a bit of a horrible boss. No one really liked him. Catherine herself took on many lovers, including the individual who was to lead the military forces during the coup d'etat in the summer of 1762, Prince Georgie Orloff, with whom she was very close. Georgie?

Georgie. They all sound like they she was very close. Georgie? Georgie. They all sound like they're in 60s British beat groups. Oh, sorry. Georgie, Paul and Catherine. Sorry, it's Grigory. Grigory. Like Grigory with an I. Apologies.

Apologies to history. We will get stuff wrong on this. Georgie. Georgie. As it was,'s decided on conspiracy they ascend to the throne on the 5th of january 1762 and catherine takes one of russian's oldest regiments and overthrows peter firstly has him arrested and forces him to abdicate on the 9th of July. And a week later, Peter is dead.

But no one knows for sure how he died. Was it natural causes? No, almost certainly not. He was pale. Massive vitamin D deficiency. Yeah. That's what finished him off. Wow. Catherine, yeah, she usurped her husband he's dead she ascends to the throne coronation set on the 22nd of september 1762

catherine becomes the most powerful woman on earth she was to be empress of russia until her death in 1796 she went on of course like led a massive renaissance in culture and sciences across russia and people flocked throughout europe to live there she did loads of clever stuff centralized health care and she was one of the first regents to be inoculated against smallpox and tried to have such inoculations imposed on her own subjects so she wasn't sort of anti-vax then she was quite yeah and massively progressing in loads of different ways most interesting thing i always thought about wrote her own comedies in her spare time i love that i bet she was ripping off loads of her ex

husband's um funny ideas he was doing when he was being apparently immature but actually a lot of the stuff came from that doing when he was being apparently immature. But actually, a lot of the stuff came from that. Do you think P.O. was actually her comedic muse, maybe, at points? Like, this guy's such an absolute wally.

He just makes a great material. It's an odd thought, isn't it, to go down in history, just be unanimously regarded as a bit of an idiot. On your deathbed, you must be like, for God's sake,

history's not going to judge me kindly at all. And I know I've got bigger fish to fry at the moment, but I am, I sort of wish I'd acted differently, aged zero to present day. I know. But also, like, I mean, I feel so sorry for Peter. I wish I'd acted differently aged. Zero to present day. But also, like, I feel so sorry for Peter.

If he goes through the history books now, it's like his wife totally deposed him. And not only that, her nickname's The Great. She ended up murdering you. She's seen as the champion of the story. Like, she's the best bit of the story. But, you know, would healthcare have been nationalised, etc., if she hadn't bumped him off? I mean, almost certainly not.

That guy was an absolute wally. Wally! He was too busy perusing St. Petersburg's joke shops to centralise healthcare. OK, well, I'm going to talk about something that everyone has heard of. So, remember, remember the 5th of November, gunpowder treason and plot. And that alongside the kind of mnemonic about Henry VIII's six wives, or Richard of York and the colours of the rainbow,

you know, Roy G. Biv and all that kind of stuff, that rhyme about Guido Fawkes and his efforts to blow up the House of Parliament on November 1605, I think everyone in the UK, or certainly everyone who went to school in the UK, has a little bit of that knowledge in the back of their minds. Because obviously everyone celebrates it with fireworks night. Can I say as well, do you think, I've always thought with the gunpowder plot, that people are on Guy Fawkes' side.

Do you not feel like the British public, they kind of wanted it to happen in a weird way? I know what you mean. i know exactly what you mean to a certain extent he's almost seen as a kind of an odd folk hero in a way when you consider what he was trying to do now we have a lot of foreign listeners who might not know about it so i'm going to give you a very very quick crash course in guy folks the gunpowder plot of 605 was a failed assassination attempt against king j I by a group of English Catholics, led by Robert Catesby, who I'd completely forgotten about. We studied the gunpowder plot at school, but Guy Fawkes is the one who everyone knows about.

And their actions were considered attempted tyrannicide because they sought regime change in England because there'd been decades of religious persecution against the Catholics. So the plan was to blow up the House of Lords during the state opening of Parliament on the 5th of November 1605. And this was going to be a prelude to a popular revolt in the Midlands. And they were going to install King James's nine-year-old daughter, Princess Elizabeth, as a new head of state. I mean, again, it's crazy how young monarchs could be in this time.

Imagine having a nine-year-old in charge. My daughter's nine. And this isn't me being a parent. She's bright. I don't think she's ready to be in charge of the UK. I'll tell you what it feels like. It feels like a movie in the late 80s, early 90s, doesn't it? Where a nine-year-old becomes king And the storyline would be

This is ridiculous, this is no way it's going to work out And then actually by the end you'd realise That that childhood spirit, that naive innocence Is exactly what the country needed Yeah, yeah, and colouring in should be a massive part of the workplace culture. And maybe it is appropriate to have one of those massive pianos you play with your feet in a tower.

Exactly! And five jammy dodgers a day makes people happier. These are good policies that are required, yeah. Now, Kate's been suspected by historians to have embarked on this scheme after hopes of greater religious tolerance under King James I

had faded, leaving a lot of the English Catholics disappointed. So we had lots of fellow conspirators, Guy Fawkes being one of them. Now, there were concerns about collateral damage. So an anonymous letter of warning was sent to William Parker, who was the 4th Baron Montagle, on the 26th of

October 1605. He showed it to the authorities. So they did a search of the House of Lords in the evening of the 4th Baron Mont Eagle. On the 26th of October 1605, he showed it to the authorities. So they did a search of the House of Lords in the evening of the 4th of November 1605. And Guy Fawkes, who was the one everyone remembers, and he had 10 years military experience fighting in the Spanish Netherlands in the failed suppression of the Dutch revolt. And he'd fought in the 80 Years' War and things against Spain. He was discovered guarding 36 barrels of gunpowder, which was enough to reduce the House of Lords to rubble,

so then he was arrested. Wow. So most of the conspirators fled from London after they learned the plot had been discovered. But he's the one we all remember. Very briefly, Ellis, he's been given the... That's the crap job, isn't it? Being the one who's told they have to guard the gunpowder yeah you stand by the gunpowder we'll do what

we're all doing important stuff elsewhere don't don't you worry about that guy like could they not just once they've got it down there could they not just leave it yeah this is this is what i think about the gunpowder plot because if you're if you're like they were searching they got tipped off in the end didn't they they were searching for the gunpowder but surely if there's a guy like in the dark guarding a bunch of barrels you're gonna go well that's suspicious with a cigarette lighter but he clearly doesn't smoke yeah what are you doing down there mate nothing i'm really i'm just really interested in the Foundations of the House of Lords So I thought I'd come down

And just sit next to these barrels That I don't know what they are Also, once you've got the 36 barrels of gunpowder there Why aren't you just blowing it up then? What is the delay? They wanted the Opening of Parliament So everyone was going to be there

There you go You can't just blow the building up They wanted the opening of Parliament. So they wanted to do it then. Everyone was going to be there. There you go. What? You can't just blow the building up. It's going to be like, well, that'll learn you. Okay, fair enough. Yeah, got you. So he's the one that we all remember,

and he's the one everyone's heard of. Now, like all good plots, it's got all the elements of a compelling story because you've got two houses opposed to each other, bitterly opposed to each other, the Protestants on one side and then the Catholics on the other. There was intrigue, there was conspiracy, there was an element of a thriller, Race Against Time. There was a hapless political target for assassination.

It was neither wholly good nor bad, and also by no means universally admired. He's not quite Peter from Russia, but history has mixed feelings about him. Now, people were so shocked by the gunpowder plot, Parliament passed a law, the Observance of the 5th of November Act 1606, shortly after the plot was foiled, so that we would never forget it. And that remained on the statute book until 1859. So the Act of Parliament mandated on the 5th of November each year there'd be a special church service, a remembrance ceremony, which was made

compulsory for all members of a parish. And there were several other politically motivated remembrance days mandated by Parliament in the early 17th century, but none of them stuck. So, you know, there were remembrance days for the massacre in the early 17th century but none of them stuck so you know there was the there were remembrance days for the massacre the virginia colony for the execution of charles the first royal oak day restoration of the monarchy day but these didn't stick was the gunpowder plot you know the that that did stick remembrance of the gunpowder i think because it would have been so spectacular have you seen on youtube though i think it was a program for the discovery channel they recreated what would have happened so spectacular. Have you seen on YouTube, I think it was a programme for the Discovery Channel, they recreated what would have happened.

They built a kind of reconstruction of what Parliament would have looked like and they put mannequins in the positions. A full-size House of Parliament. It basically reconstructed what it would have been at that time, put the requisite amount of gunpowder underneath and blew it up. And can I say, there is no way in hell you're surviving it

the explosion is enormous right like the amount of gunpowder they had there's also also i'm remembering now there's questions around whether the gunpowder had gone bad or not because of the way way in which it was stored and how long it had been stored and whether it'd gotten damp but if the gunpowder were to have ignited man you would have heard that expression for miles around and there's no way you're surviving it if you're in the building well there's a there's also an extra political dimension so it was also used to mark the arrival of william of orange at brixham in devon on the 5th of november 1688 and start the glorious revolution which culminated in the overthrow of the Catholic King James II.

And then you've got William's birthday on the 4th of November. So it was a double celebration in his honour and image. But the really, really exciting thing that everyone loved is that you're not going to celebrate a plot involving gunpowder with a church service and the reading out of a sermon. You're going to remember it in the form of processions and bonfires gunpowder with a church service and the reading out of a sermon you know you're gonna you're gonna remember it in the form of processions and bonfires yeah effigies and small rockets squibs miniature fireworks you know so they didn't have any of the percussive power or the how can i put

it the illuminative presence of today's explosives and fireworks yeah but it was really really exciting it was fun so over time, the 5th of November was transformed from essentially religious and high political celebration, which focused on the monarchy and on Parliament, into one which sort of allowed for the voicing of more proletarian anxieties. So by the late 18th century, you'd have a site of kids carrying an effigy of guido forks

around town in pursuit of small change that was very common and that still happens obviously a penny for poor guy a penny for the guy that still happens all in advance of the effigy being thrown onto the bonfire in the evening

and I don't know if you've watched the David Beckham documentary on Netflix but effigies are still very popular there was an effigy of David Beckham hung outside a pub in East London by a West Ham fan I mean effigies are still big not as big as they were but yeah still big

it would be great to bring back effigies I think you don't see many I remember being a kid and seeing the guy on the fire but I haven't seen that in years, has that ended? yes I remember being a kid and seeing the guy on the fire. But I haven't seen that in years. Has that ended? Yes, I remember seeing that as a kid. In the 80s, that was definitely still happening.

But I haven't seen that for a long time. No, I haven't either. I think, I don't know how, like, it's so weird, isn't it? For kids, thinking about now, like, oh, here's a pretend man. Let's throw him on the fire and watch him burn. thinking about now like oh here's a pretend man let's throw him on the fire and watch him burn yeah it's now more fireworks and things organized by the local sort of rotary club yeah as opposed to let's burn an effigy of a bloke that would be absolutely i think you know in like the end of guy fawkes life is horrific you know i think he i think he

had his fair share of, like, horribleness. We don't need to then in death create an effigy of him and burn it all over the country again and again for hundreds of years. But do you know what's interesting? In the age of political cartoons and the terror of the French Revolution and growing demands for democratic reform,

it was not only Guy Fawkes who was thrown onto these great bonfires. He had all manner of enemies put on bonfires. And they found themselves similarly thrust, including those who opposed the Great Reform Act of 1832. People who opposed the Great Reform Act, they were refugees of them and they were put on bonfires. It was a really political thing. I mean, now I think of it as being candy floss and sort of standing in the cold and people eating baked potatoes and fireworks. And also on social media, pet owners complaining.

That's what I think of when I think of bonfire night. We've talked about if we had to go back and make a living during the 19th or 18th century, effigy maker. That could be your thing. That's the job. You just open up a shop and you just people come in and they go right who who do you want and they'll say well my next door neighbor barry's been really annoying me he keeps talking about moving the hedge and it's encroaching on my land can you not one up barry or whatever and i that's your shop you're making effigies

you're making whatever people need i think you've created a hobby more than it but if you can turn your hobby into a living then that's a life well spent isn't it that's the thing yeah so but then queen victoria by her time she felt that the fifth of november celebrations were old hat they were they should something that should be forgotten they were a bit old-fashioned and outmoded. And also fireworks became a target for the authorities because out of fear that in the wrong hands they would cause personal injury or widespread damage to property, something that still happens now. I mean, there were government information films when we were kids

about the danger of fireworks, and they still are. So in the 1820s, several towns, including Cambridge, just banned the use, warning any potential transgressors that they'd be heavily fined. In Carmarthen the penalty was set at £5 which is the equivalent today of almost £500 almost a month's wages for a skilled tradesman Can I say like

fireworks are basically explosives aren't they? Even now because of those public information adverts I get nervous when I light a firework in my garden and this is with modern safety in mind. Going back to the Victorian era, what kind of fireworks are they knocking up? They must be like, the sticks are dynamite, isn't it?

My birthday is the 3rd of November. So as a kid, my birthday party was always a fireworks party in my back garden. Done by my dad. My dad doesn't know how to use explosives my friend dan who's a stand-up comic who tom knows he was i've i've known dan since i was three he describes thinking about my birthday parties as being like a vietnam flashback because we were stood behind the patio door that's my old man in a duffel coat because it's like 1987 he's going back to lit fireworks and he fired off into trees captain wheels going mad next to the swing do you remember those i think they're called roman

candles the ones where you pop them in the ground and they just shoot little fire up, you know, like 10 feet in the air. I was once at a garden-based firework display, and one of those Roman candles fell over once it was lit and started shooting the Roman candle into the house. Yeah. And it was like, so all of us were running in the house like, ah! It wasn't. Something like this happens every year.

Yeah. It's kind of crazy that we're allowed to do it. It's amazing that you can buy them in a newsagent. This is an aspect of my personality that people find difficult to believe because it's not consistent with any other aspects of my personality. I think fireworks are really pretty.

Don't say that, can I shock you? Whenever I see fireworks, I coo like an old lady. Because I just think they're really pretty. And when I say this, 99% of people just assume I'm taking the piss. But I stick with it because I'm not taking the piss. And then people are like, yeah, good one, Al. He's really sticking with his fireworks are pretty thing. I'm like, no, I just think they're really nice to look at.

To be fair, I do agree with that. When I go to them, I do think they're spectacular. Can I ask you one quick question? My other thing is when I go to fireworks, still to this age, I fear a gone-out sparkler on the floor more than anything in the world as soon as i see someone i'm like nobody touch it nobody it could be really hot like genuine because of the government information film we were all shown the late 80s one go on go on show jill your hand because people love fireworks and people love a bonfire,

you could take the political element and the historical element out of it and it would still carry on. But that is the reason we celebrate fireworks night and bonfire night is because of the gunpowder plot. It's absolutely fascinating. But you are, it's also amazing to me, as you say, that it still blows my mind that this happens that yeah how long will do you think there will be a time in 50 years that will not be

the case that it's no longer okay to be firing rockets randomly into the sky well my thing is like america has the fifth of july like every country needs a night for fireworks yes i think it's kind of that, isn't it? More than a celebration. I don't imagine there's many back garden firework displays where they're thinking, we are marking the gunpowder plot tonight, kids. No, no, definitely not.

Yeah. No, I mean, yes. I've never met anyone who's like, God, so glad they got him in the end. I don't know. He deserved everything he got. Been working on this effigy for four months. Hate that guy.

So I'm going to talk to you guys about how one of the most successful authors in history plotted his way to success. Now, are you familiar with Washington Irving? Have you heard of Washington Irving? I've heard of him. I've never read any of his books. Okay. Chris, your silence suggests not.

Your complete and utter silence and utterly unmoving face suggests that you're not familiar with Washington Irving. When you said the words Washington Irving, that was the first time I've heard them. Okay. Okay. In that order.

So, Washington Irving is now best known for writing Rip Van Winkle, which you may be aware of. And more famously here, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow. Oh, yeah. Which became the huge movie and in America is like a hugely read book. Rip Van Winkle written in 1819, Sleepy Hollow written in 1820. But when he was starting his career and about to launch his first major work in 1809, a book called The History of New York, he had no profile. So he

decided that to make sure this book sold in any numbers, he needed to make himself famous. So it's not easy in 1809. So there you know, there's no internet, social media, or any of these things that you'd normally use now. No TV, no radio, none of this stuff. No, newspapers would have been the ones. They were starting to creep in, exactly. That's right. I mean, how would you do it back then?

If you had to make yourself famous in the early... Any idea how you might go about it? You could make yourself famous in your small tone quite easily yes simply by wearing no pants or trousers here's what i'm doing to get famous right okay yeah everyone's everyone loves a lovely picture everyone's into art yeah i say and everything is quite well defined isn't it in 1809 line draw you know night we're trying to replicate what a thing actually looks like. I turn up.

Everything's a bit smudged. Yes, I've invented impressionism. 70 years early. Draw a lovely little fella. Get a sponge out. Give it a wipe. There we go. Impressionism.

70 years or so ahead of everyone else. Draw a lovely little fella. Now, how do you think they're taking to this? If it is 70 years early, how are you selling this as good art when what they want is absolutely realism? I'm saying this is impressionism, you idiots. This is going to be massive. You don't know it yet. Because of your accent, Chris, I propose a new podcast.

Chris Scull very quickly defines art. So you go through all of the different styles and epochs and eras and you summarize it in a couple of sentences i know that thomas skinner tom skinner's the one who says bosh at the end of everything but you were like lovely little fella give it a wipe bosh chris let's test you with some what's your description of modern art Chris get out of your bed get a flatbed truck outside your house put the bed on the truck take it to a gallery

bosh modern art modern art done you're done impressionism's rubbish isn't it I'm sorry why is this

why was it so massive? The whole thing of, well, look at a picture, squint. Doesn't it look like it's better than it is now? Oh, my God. Well, that's impressionism. Cubism. You take a work of art, the subjects are analysed, broken up, reassembled in an abstract form, bombed.

See what colours you happen to have in the shed. Fill in the squares. So that isn't the option that Irving took. So Irving took a really weird approach to get himself famous. He started, this is so amazing, he started by placing a series of missing person ads

in the city's newspapers, all looking for information about the whereabouts of someone called Diedrich Knickerbocker. The first advert appeared in the New York Evening Post on the 26th of October 1809 under the headline, Distressing. And the advert read, Left his lodging sometime since and has not been heard of, a small elderly gentleman dressed in an old black coat and cocked hat by the name of knickerbocker as there are some reasons for

believing he is not entirely in his right mind any information concerning him will be thankfully received so this is the first thing he did the first step on his really weird journey to make himself famous and sell his book and then a few weeks later another advert appeared this time to the letters page and this one read to the editor of the Evening Post, Sir, having read in your paper of the 25th of October a paragraph respecting an old gentleman by the name of Knickerbocker, if it would be of any relief to his friends, you may inform them that a person answering a description was seen by the passengers of the Albany stage early in the morning, resting himself by the side of the road. He appeared to be travelling northward and was very fatigued and exhausted.

That was from a traveller, simply written a traveller. And then week by week, he would post more and more of these adverts until the readers of the paper became absolutely obsessed with who this knickerbocker guy was. Oh, wow. And they just were desperate for any details they could get their hands on. Now, would you like to guess at this point

what his plan is? Why is he doing this? I can't. I'm trying to figure it out. I can't. I can't. It is brilliant, to be fair. Is he going to be knickerbocker?

Well, you'll find out. Would you like to have a guess, Ellis? Is he eventually going to write to the newspaper and say, I'm knickerbocker? I don't know. I don't know. What is he going to do? It's actually even more complex than that.

Now, bear in mind, you have to remember that Washington Irving became one of the great writers of the period. So this really worked. Next, this is the crucial step. He added something else to the mix with the following appearing in the press a couple of weeks later. You've been good enough to publish in your paper a paragraph about Mr. Diedrich Knickerbocker, who is missing so strangely from his lodging sometime since. Nothing satisfactory has been heard of the old gentleman since, but a very curious kind of written book has been found in his room in his own handwriting.

Now I wish you to notice him, if he is still alive, that if he does not return soon and pay off his bill for boarding and lodging with me, I shall have to dispose of this book to satisfy me for that money I am sir your humble servant and that's from someone called Seth Handesai but of course once again was Washington Irvine claiming to be someone else and then a week later and this is the crucial thing uh this day is published is what was this is what was written in the paper this day is published by Inskeep and Bradford a history of New York price three dollars containing the account discovery of this city and settlement this work was found in the chamber of mr deirdre knickerbocker the old gentleman whose

sudden and mysterious disappearance has been noticed it is published in order to discharge certain debts he left behind so what what irving has done here he's clay he's decided not to say that he's written the book he's just claimed that this knickerbocker guy has written this book has gone missing and left it in his apartment and they released this book that this guy had written and it worked people were just desperate to read what this mysterious man had written the public went mad for it and bookshops were completely inundated with demand it just became a bestseller immediately all from adverts sent in to this press um to the press about this guy knickerbocker who'd been who'd been missing i mean it's kind of amazing really

isn't it such a such a clever marketing technique incredible yeah what a story at this time when you have no there's so few options to make yourself famous or get your name out there or get your stuff sold what a brilliant way of doing it um now it was only much later when the book had become a smash hit that Irving revealed that Knickerbocker was an invention and that he was the author because he was famous by that point everyone thought he was an absolute a genius so basically he's he's managed to foster this fascination in his character so much so that the book sells in great numbers um and i'm going to tell you a little bit about this book uh just to finish up because this book has quite the impact

it's not only a bestseller it has such an impact on current life for a few reasons first of all the character of nickerbocker went on to inspire the widely used nickname for inhabitants of manhattan which are called nickerbockers still what people call them today it later led to the naming of the professional basketball team as new york knicks oh wow this has come from this same fake character that you wrote to the press about the nickerbocker glory comes from this same fake character that you wrote to the press about. The Knickerbocker glory comes from this same fake character from this book. And because of the drawings of Knickerbocker on the book, wearing long floating pants, what word do we get from that? Knickers.

Knickers. It all comes from the same fake character. Isn't this amazing? That's amazing. amazing but also the crucial thing this book which is not to do with knicker uh knickerbocker is that it's completely changed the way we view christmas because um he helped to create the modern image of santa claus in this book he wrote of a man in this book a history of new york the good saint nicholas came riding over the tops of the trees and that self-same wagon wherein he brings this yearly presence

to children now at this point the fascination and interest in santa claus had completely gone out the window and through this book suddenly people became interested in him again a lot of the claim is given to dickens actually actually it it was Washington Irving, really, that started the trend for the interest back in Santa Claus and a lot of the modern Christmas festivities we have now. All from this one book that he wrote under a pseudonym. He sold with lies to the press. He's created the idea of Santa.

He's become a huge name in the writing world. And he's also led to the naming of an ice cream, a huge name in the writing world and he's also led to the naming of an ice cream a basketball team and pants I mean amazing

you know at the height of Soccer AM's success Tim Lovejoy used to claim that he was influencing football fans but he certainly

did influence culture in the way that Washington did He certainly did influence culture in the way that Washington did. That's it for this week. Thank you so much for listening. If you want to get in contact with the show,

you can email us at hello at owhatatime.com and also do check us out on Instagram and Twitter at owhatatimepod. Oh, yeah, and please also also if you like the show, hey, leave a review. That's all we're asking. It's not much. It takes five minutes. If you've done it, you can sit down. If you haven't done it, get busy. Get on your podcast app of choice. That's all we want you to do is to become

utterly obsessed with us. Like people became obsessed with the story of Nickerbocker. Exactly. We just want to, you want to change the world in the way that he did that's all we're a five star review from you is the first step in that process

we'll see you next week guys thanks so much for listening bye Bye.