Oh What A Time... - #21 The Great Depression

Episode Date: December 4, 2023

This week we're looking at the aftermath of the 1929 Wall St Crash, which signalled the beginning of an era known as: The Great Depression (Merry Christmas!). We'll be looking at the origins of the crash, the US President at the time Herbert Hoover (not Henry, to be clear), plus how Yip Harburg turned to songwriting to pull himself out of debt. And we've launched a subscription! If you sign up, you'll get an extended and ad-free version of this episode which includes a look at The Great Gatsby and F Scott Fitzgerald. Becoming a OWAT: FULL TIMER also means you get episodes a week early, a bonus episode every month and pre-sale access to any future live shows! We're on AnotherSlice.com, Apple and Spotify at present, if you want the full list head to: ohwhatatime.com Have a ONE DAY TIME MACHINE? Send us your thoughts by emailing: [e-mail] Aaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? Oh and please follow us on Twitter at @ohwhatatimepod And Instagram at @ohwhatatimepod And thank you to Dr Daryl Leeworthy for his help with this week’s research. Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). And thank you for listening! We’ll see you next week Chris, Elis and Tom ohwhatatime.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's 2FA security on Kraken? Let's say I'm captaining my soccer team, and we're up by a goal against, I don't know, the Burlington Bulldogs. Do we relax? No way. Time to create an extra line of defense and protect that lead. That's like 2FA on Kraken. A surefire way to keep what you already have safe and sound. Go to Kraken.com and see what crypto can be.

Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. See Kraken.com slash legal slash CA dash PRU dash disclaimer for info on Kraken's undertaking to register in Canada. I'm going back to university for $0 delivery fee, up to 5% off orders and 5% Uber cash back on rides. Not whatever you think university is for. Get Uber One for students. With deals this good, everyone wants to be a student. Join for just $4.99 a month. Savings may vary. Eligibility and member terms apply. Looking for a collaborator for your career? A strong ally to support your next level success? You will find it at York University School of Continuing Studies,

where we offer career programs purpose-built for you. Visit continue.yorku.ca. Hello and welcome to Oh What A Time, the history podcast that tries to decide if the past was absolutely rubbish. I'm Chris Gull. I'm Tom Crane. And I'm Ellis James. Each week on this show, we'll be looking at a new historical subject. And today we're going to be discussing the Great Depression. From the origins of the Wall Street crash to Herbert Hoover to the greatest song of the Great Depression. And for subscribers, an extra bonus section on F. Scott Fitzgerald and the Great Gatsby. Yeah, the Great Depression was an enormous economic shock, an enormous recession that affected most countries around the world.

And it was this enormous recession that came after the 1929 Wall Street crash. It started in America. It's not a cheery subject. So to try and keep everyone's spirits up, imagine that Herbert Hoover, a cheery subject. So to try and keep everyone's spirits up, imagine that Herbert Hoover, the president, was called Henry Hoover. It completely changes everything. It's so much more fun to imagine. Imagine the inauguration. There's a little red plastic guy there with a nose, which is six foot long and plastic. With his wife, Henrietta Hoover. Because you see them occasionally.

Just before we started recording, I said, what you doing and he said henry hoover and and this the grammar of that sounded right yeah i just my mind couldn't quite wrap itself around the subject matter old grainy black and white footage of henry hoover it's because i own henry hoover and i've just i'm looking at it are you that easily influenced i'm looking at it right now. What am I doing, Henry Hoover? Yeah. I may as well have said, what am I doing? I'm doing electric drum kit, electric guitar I don't play very

often, and bed sheets that need changing. Yeah. And the Great Depression. Can I ask a question? Is it normal? I suppose it is normal, but for someone of your age, Ellis, and you, you've settled into your life properly to still have a Henry Hoover, it feels like quite a sort of juvenile Hoover. Maybe I'm wrong.

You say that. Yeah. You know, when offices are being cleaned, what are they using? Yeah. Professional cleaners use Henry Hoovers. Do they really? And I know that obviously this is a commercial enterprise. We're not on the BBC,

so I'm not hamstrung by the same rules as when I'm broadcasting on Five Live. This isn't an endorsement. Like, Henry Hoover, this is a very, very clever live read is what they say in the trade. I just asked a lot of cleaners, are they that good? And everyone said

yes, and so I bought one. This episode is actually brought to you by Dyson who will be livid at this point we'll be talking about Henry Hoover also do you think Henry Hoover is painting on that smile

if you're living a life where your entire day is spent sucking up dust from a carpet are you really going to be that happy yeah can I ask a question

if you were going to suck up dust would you use your nose or your mouth very good question because Henry is using his nose Chris you're weird.

Oh, my God. I'd use another Hoover. That's what I'd do if I was Henry Hoover. I'd push around a second Hoover and I'd use that, Chris, to answer your question. And I once stayed at the comedian Stuart Black's mum's house when I was doing a gig near where his mother lived. And I was giving him a lift from London. And she had a Henry Hoover. I said is it good she said I bought this in 1984 and it's never let me down so that was another that was another mark uh in the sort of pros list for gold sake let him retire come on let Henry retire if he's been working since 79, it's time to let him retire. Then when I bought it, when I bought the Henry Hoover,

I sort of placed my hand next to the nozzle and the suck was very powerful. And it was on the low suck mode. So don't ever, ever, ever tell me that I've got a juvenile Hoover. Don't you ever say that again.

Yeah, it looks funny, but it's actually a very adult suck. This is the best endorsement. And I can say on behalf of Chris and I, we're both delighted you said hand there as well, because I had absolutely no idea where that story was going. Also, as you said hand, you winked. Yeah. Good point.

Noted, Chris. It's important to have a little bit of fun, isn't it? When you're cleaning the house. Oh, dear. Okay, that's henry hoover sorted yes so should we crack into the episode proper should we get into some correspondence do you fancy that yeah yes let's do it our wonderful listeners have as ever come up trumps you guys are fantastic this one really made me laugh let's kick off with this hi guys my partner and i are huge fans of the pod. Thank you very much. So much so, we are even abreast of Ellis' new furry family additions. We should explain what they are.

They're these attachments I've got for my Henry Hoover. And that email comes from Henry and Henrietta Hoover. Ellis has got new cats. I've got new cats and I'm allergic to them which makes my life a real laugh. Is it still a nightmare?

I was filming yesterday and I'd been stroking them before I left the house because I do love these things and in the make-up chair because I was filming something for television I sneezed approximately

40 to 50 times and Gary the make-up man said, please take a puriton. And he didn't look at his face he just said I can't handle anymore you need

you need to change your life so what are you going to do about the fact that you're unbelievably allergic to your cats no it's fine I reckon it's getting better actually I think yesterday was just a bad day okay fine

you're not tempted to shave them completely it's crossed my mind absolutely but I think it might be to do with their saliva as well It was just a bad day. Okay, fine. You're not tempted to shave them completely? It's crossed my mind, absolutely. But I think it might be to do with their saliva as well. Ah, well, stop snogging them. This email says, however, we've quickly spotted another one for your corrections section. So much so, they've even done that emoji of the police siren at the top, which feels a little bit strong. But that's what they've gone with.

Not sure it was arrestable. And you guessed it. This is my favourite sentence. Chris, enjoy arrestable and you guessed it this is my favourite sentence Chris enjoy this and you guessed it it was Chris again oh man

thoughts on that cue the corrections sting I think you'll find it's the correction section yeah it's a correction section correction section correction section chris mentioned being down with the kids and coming across a tiktok video that clarified that mario is in fact saying it's me mario for his famous catchphrase which meant super in japanese we were also dumbfounded by this news. Nevertheless, we felt it was only right to fact check it.

Something Chris has never done in his life. I'm a history freewheeler. He refuses to get the internet. The Ron Burgundy of history podcasting. How do you feel, Chris, that you've given a fact on our show and a listener's response is to immediately fact-check it? But that is the knee-jerk reaction to something you've suggested. Long may it continue.

Okay. So we thought it was only right to fact-check it, and unfortunately, I think we can all see where this is going, unfortunately it didn't take long to find articles going so far as mocking those fooled by this lie. Here's a quote to wet your appetite in my 41 years as a japanese person i have never heard that word used ever sorry lads love the pod my apologies my apologies i should also apologize i know there's been loads

of emails this week and i've had a few tweets as well so please accept this blanket apology yeah the emails didn't end there that was from taylor and edward laura quickly followed up about two minutes later um i'll surmise once again saying chris is to blame for this and she said looking it up in the trusty japanese dictionary itsumi could refer to itsumin which is apparently a word for a retired person or a recluse i'm not sure if the game would have turned into an international sensation if it was recluse mario is what she's written there. But there you go.

Could we, instead of calling it the correction section, could we call it another skull? Skull attack. Well done, Chris. It's 2-0-0 in the correction section. Blimey. It is 2-0-0. Another excellent correspondence section. And if you want to contribute to our correspondence section,

here's how you can get in touch with the show. All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us at hello at ohwhatatime.com and you can follow us on Instagram and twitter at oh what a time pod now clear off are you dave a claims-free hybrid driving university grad who signed up online well dave this jingles for you who says with td insurance because he's a claims-free hybrid driving university grad Who signed up online

It's Dave Not Dave? No problem TD Insurance has over 30 ways to save on home and auto So You can totally save Just not exactly like Dave Save like only you can At tdinsurance.com slash ways to save

TD Ready for you Breaking news coming in from Bet365 Where every nail-biting overtime win, breakaway, pick six, three-point shot, underdog win, buzzer beater, shootout, walk-off, and absolutely every play in between is amazing. From football to basketball and hockey to baseball,

whatever the moment, it's never ordinary at Bet365. Must be 19 or older, Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you or someone you know has concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca. All right, so on the main feed, you're going to get three parts to this episode. But don't forget, if you're a subscriber,

you get all four parts, which this week includes F. Scott Fitzgerald and The Great Gatsby. But you also get every episode ad free and every episode from this point on will have four parts and if you're a subscriber you will get that fourth part plus a bonus episode every month plus episodes a week early if you want to subscribe you can do so at another slice.com forward slash oh what a time also on the apple podcast app and also on spotify if you want the links to all those things and you want to subscribe for a mere £4.99 per month,

you can do so by going to owhatatime.com. Less than a fiver. And if you're curious about the whole ad-free thing, the Henry Hoover stuff at the start, that genuinely was an advert. That was content. There's no way of getting around that. You have to listen to that.

There's no avoiding that. That's you have to listen to that there's no avoiding that that's staying in because people are going i'll pay 50 quid a month if i don't have to listen to that sort of content well that's not an offer we don't have that and chris one other thing am i also right in thinking people get first dibs on live tickets because we're planning some live shows in the future exactly that there you go it's a bargain. Become a Oh What A Time full-timer for £4.99 per month. Less than the price of a London pint, I would say. To do that, just go to ohwhatatime.com. All the links are there.

Right, this week, what have you gentlemen got for us? I will be discussing Herbert Hoover. Sorry, I'm still thinking about the actual Hoover. Just to let you know, throughout your entire section I will be picturing Henry. I am talking about one of the saddest songs I've ever heard and one of the great songs of the Great Depression. And I'm going to be talking about the origins of the Wall Street Crash. Let's start from the beginning, a very good place to start,

as a great singer once sung. The Wall Street Crash october 1929 interestingly exactly midway between the end of the first world war officially marked by the treaty of versailles in june 1919 and the outbreak of the second world war in september 1939 that is extra interesting i'll explain why at the end of the section just to let you know taylor and edward currently googling that to see if you are correct. Immediately onto Google. You say Taylor and Edward.

I would say 98% of our listeners, and the other 2%, they're running out of battery and they've decided to prioritise the podcast. I will say, if you are attempting to fact-check everything I say, this section is largely written by our historian, Daryl, who has done all the fact-checking for me. Yeah, he's a real historian. This is just Chris reading. When I'm not reading the research that Daryl has provided me,

I am freewheeling through history, and that is where mistakes are made. When he goes off to East. So, few countries entirely escaped the consequences of the crash. Those most heavily affected were those most keenly integrated into the global economy. So, Canada, Australia new zealand britain the united states and the countries of central and south america throughout the 1920s despite severe industrial turbulence in some countries like britain there was this overwhelming sense of optimism and a belief that the horrors of war had

been understood and that peace whatever it may mean in practice, would hold. You hear about this, don't you? The swinging 20s. The roaring 20s, yeah. The roaring 20s. I have read articles from the press in the 20s where they are talking about this and they're like, we've done it, it was the Great War. Yeah.

We learnt. Are you working your way through the news? Is that what you're doing? Yeah. You've got to 1925. Yeah, I'm not going back too far. I've started in 1900, but it's taken a while. Every copy of The Guardian.

Yeah, it's taken a while. Yeah, still call The Manchester Guardian in my eyes because it's only 1925. Does it annoy you that every day they bring out a new newspaper? It's overwhelming, yeah, absolutely. It's interesting, that feeling of optimism, even the fact that there was such awful times so

recently before there's something parallels there with my experience of being a parent in a weird way where whenever we have good times i'm like it's going to stay like this this is good the kids are sleeping this is it despite the fact very recently i was up 12 times a night i'm going this is this is what it's going to be from now on. Listeners, obviously the vast majority of you would have met Tom personally. He is so positive it's almost an illness. This is it! It's like that thing Donny Baker used to shout

when Millwall went 1-0 up. He would stand up and he would go, everyone, nothing can go wrong now! Josh Whittaker was a close friend of ours. He's always pointing out to me how i'm positive whatever but in a way that suggests that i shouldn't really be feeling like that you're not observing the warning signs as if i'm ignoring the obvious truth i should really be feeling quite down about myself why are you feeling like that it's almost a concern how

happy exactly look in the mirror man You are aware how your life's going Come on, be realistic The Americans celebrated the 1920s as the Jazz Age The age of F. Scott Fitzgerald and Gatsby As we will talk about later in this episode for subscribers It was an era of unrivaled optimism and political stability And nowhere was there greater optimism than on the stock market Where share trading rose

remarkably from the early 1920s until the autumn of 1929 in later more sober times the reality of what was going on in the 1920s was apparent company and this is interesting i think because we've just done the dot-com bubble in a previous episode yeah it's the same thing back here yeah yeah and 2008 as well the credit crunch yeah later on people looked back on the start of this area and saw that companies were significantly overvalued and when the bubbles burst liabilities were enormous with companies sold in liquidation for perhaps a tenth of their original value wow all through 1929 the new york stock exchange in particular had fallen victim to precisely this kind of speculation with a small warning come crash taking place in late march and a loss of confidence apparent in

certain sectors of the economy including steel manufacturing and car sales but still share trading continued to pace and the bubble expanded ever outwards wow so almost a point where they even acknowledge that this was grossly inflated it still continued you're saying beyond that point yeah and i think you know you talked about this in the dot-com bubble we've seen in the housing They even acknowledge that this was grossly inflated. It's still continued, you're saying, beyond that point. Yeah, and I think, you know, you talked about this in the dot-com bubble. We've seen it in the housing bubble. It's almost like everyone involved in the bubble wants it to be true and are almost ignoring it. They're like you, Tom.

They're so optimistic and then you slap a reality across the face. So you're saying that the Great Depression was caused by Tom Crane? The optimism of people like Tom Crane. People like me. People influenced by Tom Crane. Cranists. Cranists. My apologies.

On the 3rd of September 1929, exactly a decade prior to the outbreak of Second World War, the Dow Jones Industrial Index peaked at 381.17 points, which is a peak it wouldn't reach again until the mid-1950s i'll talk about that in a bit wow so it's interesting as well i you hear about the dow jones industrial index and as i'm a bit thick i had to understand exactly how it works and i will explain that to you now and maybe this could be one for correction corner because this is my own research the dow jones industrial Index, from the 1st of October 1928, the index is calculated by taking the top 30 companies

before the 1st of October 1928, it was the top 20, and essentially averaging the stock prices. So for points, see dollars. So that's 381.17 points. That's really interesting. I didn't know that. Okay.

Well, there you go. If I've got that right, how about give me some credit? Yeah, yeah. Oh, we could call Chris Scullsbury's praise corner it'd be good to start equalizing you know the funny thing with the roaring 20s is in parts of the uk in particular south wales unemployment was at like 70 in some parts of south wales by the mid-20s really so whenever i read about the roaring 20s,

yeah, parts of Scotland, you know, Scotland was badly affected, the north of England as well. I think it wasn't that. If you lived in Merthyr Tydfil, it was quite shit, the 19... Well, very shit, the 1920s. It's funny how we look back

and see certain decades. Yes. You know, the sort of... The prevailing narrative, I always find that very interesting, that it can reflect some realities, but not all of them. The jazz era makes me think of the worst holiday I've ever been on, when Claire and I decided to go to New Orleans to watch live jazz,

where it's performed at its best. And we flew to New Orleans, and we went to our first jazz club and about two minutes in I turned to Claire and said I don't think I like jazz and we both realized that neither of us like jazz we'd never stop to think about that I like everything around jazz except the jazz itself yeah that's exactly it that's exactly it i love like ronnie scott's i love the smoky dimly lit you know cocktails and like little tables on glass and i like the idea of the instruments but as soon as someone hits a fucking note i'm like, I could, this is barely music. That is exactly it, Skull.

It's the idea of it. It's the atmosphere. It's the sort of the smoky cocktails. But as soon as that saxophone comes out, oh no. Everything around it is great, except for the thing on the stage that I'm hearing with my ears. Out of interest, what did you then do with New Orleans? Well, we had some nice food.

It was all a bit quiet. I didn't love New Orleans. People obviously love it. Yeah, of course, yeah. And I get that. But it wasn't for us. It wasn't for us. But we avoided jazz.

Well, this sounds bad. I think Paris is very overrated. Interesting. Mate, this is a thing. What you've described there, there is a phenomenon where people think Paris is going to be better than it is. And it's a phenomenon that people are disappointed with their first trip to Paris. There's actually a Wikipedia article about it. Is there? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's incredible. And I didn't admit that for ages and ages and ages. So talk through your emotions. So when you went to Paris, what was your reaction then, Al? I went as a kid because we went to Euro Disney when I was about 15. And that wasn't ideal because it really was designed around my little sister. Yeah. And I was a bit too old for it.

And I was there with my mum and dad. And we saw the Eiffel Tower. We did that kind of stuff. And I thought, all right, well, that's not representative of the Paris experience. And then I went again when I was in my early 20s and I was very skint and I didn't think it was that good. But then I thought, you know, I'm skint, I've just not seen it. I've been quite a few times since.

I've always thought, this is just a shit London. It's actually, it's called Paris syndrome, what you're exhibiting. A sense of extreme disappointment exhibited by some individuals when visiting Paris who feel that the city was not what they had expected. The condition is commonly viewed as a severe form of culture shock. Wow. Yeah. I want to defend Paris.

I went on my honeymoon to Paris, so I do really like Paris. But I do get that experience of not aligning with what other people feel about cities how I felt about New Orleans I think I thought that the food was gonna blow me away and actually it was all the same everywhere quite creamy sort of chicken can I have the creamy chicken just like every other meal I've had on this godforsaken trip yeah and then tell me where the nearest jazz club is and just take me to the station. Let's really ruin this holiday, actually.

Through September 1929, the New York Stock Exchange was almost in a continuous slide downward. Black Tuesday, 29th October 1929, 30 points were wiped off the dow jones the equivalent of 14 billion dollars of stock oh my god by the middle of november when things began to calm down the dow had fallen below 200 points settling at 198.6 and yeah just a reminder in september 1929 it was 381 points so that is an enormous drop that's incredible countless investors those exposed to overvalued companies went bankrupt in an instant the rally began on the 14th of

november 1929 and lasted until april the following year but was not enough to save those affected those who did survive then faced a second downturn which lasted until 1932 oh my god by then the dow jones collapsed to just 41.22 points and again i'll remind you that it was at 381.17 at its peak. So all the way down to 41.22 points. It would take until the 23rd of November, 1954, for the American industrial average to recover the position it had held on the 3rd of September, 1929. More than a quarter of a century.

But I'll leave you with this. I said that the wall street crash was exactly between the first world war and the second world war america's wall street crash of 1929 had an incredibly detrimental impact overseas particularly in germany whose post-world war one economic recovery was being funded by american aid in the face of the great depression economic aid was withdrawn by the us and germany's economy ground to a halt an event which polarized german politics with the communists and the far right rounding on the ruling german government high employment and subsequent social and political unrest led to the collapse of chancellor herman

muller's government business leaders fearful that the communists might take over assumed a lurch to the far right would be safer and just remember remember who you got knocking about this time yeah he's got a little toothbrush moustache yeah yeah he's a bit odd really did ruin that kind of moustache for the rest of time i think yeah and it had got off to quite a good start with charlie chaplin what a fall from grace people at the time thought well you know once this guy gets in power we'll be able to control him and soften some of his more mad ideas and i will end one one of my favorite norm mcdonald's is one of my favorite comedians and it's a great joke he does where he goes germany had that leader and everyone said oh his oratory skills were just so amazing

and that's how he got to power and then he said he saw a youtube video of him going he said that's not my idea of a silver-tongued devil. So the Great Depression had enormous impacts, when you think about it in those terms, on the 20th century. Imagine going bankrupt overnight because of something you can't control. Yeah. It would be absolutely horrific. Absolutely.

I studied this at A-level and GCSE, and it's it's chilling actually and you just think yeah i mean a lot of the lessons still weren't properly learned i don't think it's the idea of of going bankrupt and it's not because of something you've done not because of your own yes lack of business acumen is just something i've i find it very difficult to not think about that for a long time it really really scared me and a system is so spiraling out of control it can do nothing to change this for anyone there's like it's yeah yeah that it was so wildly awful that no governmental change really could do enough to prevent anything could it but if there's one thing i know about the finance sector, it's that we've definitely learned all those lessons and they definitely won't happen again.

Exactly. Phew! I'm going to be talking about Herbert Hoover, but before we move on, I'm going to talk about a book I read centred around this period that I thought was absolutely superb. It's called Dark Continent, Europe's 20th Century by Mark Mazzawa. I found this really stayed with me to the point that I actually annotated my copy. Today, it is hard to see the interwar experiment with democracy for the novelty it was, yet we should certainly not assume that democracy is suited to Europe. Though we may like to think democracy's victory in the Cold War proves its deep roots in Europe's soil, history

tells us otherwise. Triumphant in 1918, it was virtually extinct 20 years on. Maybe it was bound to collapse in a time of political crisis and economic turmoil, for its defenders were too utopian, too ambitious and too few. In its focus upon constitutional rights and its neglect of social responsibilities, it often seemed more fitted to the 19th than to the 20th century. By the 1930s, the signs were that most Europeans no longer wished to fight for it. There were dynamic, non-democratic alternatives to meet the challenges of modernity. Europe found other authoritarian forms of political order no more foreign to its traditions,

no less efficient as organisers of society, industry and technology. So this idea that democracy is particularly suited to Europe and that it's like the natural order of things. Yeah. That's not true. Isn't that absolutely chilling when you think about it? Yeah, it really is. Yeah. Especially now, a hundred years later. Yes. Where there is more threat to democracy than it feels like there's ever been in my lifetime.

Yeah. Well, I'm going to talk about Herbert Hoover. Now, the Great Depression cost Herbert Hoover his job and his reputation. So FDR, Roosevelt, he was elected on a massive landslide, 472 electoral votes to Hoover's 59. Wow. No Republican would again occupy the White House until the election of Eisenhower in 1952. So this period of democratic dominance over the White House, interrupted only by Eisenhower in the 50s, would last until the presidential election of Richard Nixon in 1968.

So in Congress, democratic control would run from 1930 until 1994, with only one interruption between 1946 and 1948. Now, you know, I've studied American politics. I didn't realise that the Democrats were that dominant and had been for so long. Yeah. I was quite surprised by that. Absolutely. They must have been able to basically push everything through as well. There can't have been...

Well, there's lots of checks and balances in American politics that stops you doing that kind of thing. Also, interestingly, historically, the Democrats were pro-slavery and the republicans were like led by abraham lincoln and so i you kind of think they the democrats are more left-leaning yeah historic but they're not necessarily yes now in november 28 1928 11 months prior to the wall street crash hoovered romped home as the Republican candidate in the US presidential election of that year. So he won this landslide, 444 electoral votes compared to 87. And Al Lewis of New York suggested that the Republican hegemony over American politics was safe for another eight years.

And Hoover, he was widely respected and he was thought of as this steady pair of hands because he'd been responsible for marshalling USA to europe in the aftermath of the first world war and then spent eight years as secretary of commerce in the cabinets of his predecessors warren harding and calvin coolidge who are american presidents i know from the simpsons don't knock me that's just the way it works if you don't grow up in the us we We do our research. We do our research. That's the name. You get an awful lot of cultural cues from the Simpsons. Can I just say as well, you mentioned the guy who ran for president and lost out. Was it Al Lewis? Yeah.

Whenever you hear the people who ran and didn't make president, their names are just not presidential. Yeah, Michael Dukakis is the one I always think of. You can't get elected with a name like that. Yeah. Like, you're just a bloke. You're not a real president. He sounds like someone who doesn't pay his subs at Fiverr's side.

I could look at a list of names through history and go, I could tell you the presidential name out of the other, because the other ones are always just a weird, like... You, Chris, have invented a fantastic game, I think. It's basically turned you into a prophet. You need to look at the names of presidential candidates and start putting money on it or something, because you're right.

Who's going to win? Herbert Hoover or Al Lewis, the guy who doesn't pay his subs at Fiverside. And it's the third week he hasn't paid, and you're like, we'll let him play this once, because otherwise it's the third week he hasn't paid and you're like we'll let him play this once because otherwise it's five versus four and that always ruins it yeah but if he doesn't play next week we're gonna have to get someone else it's not even that great he's like he just sort of slows the game down a bit he never buys a pint afterwards he's a mate of the goalie

nobody really knows him he never goes in goal exactly yeah do you remember mitt romney mitt i'm sorry, Mitt. That is an interesting question, though. Do you think the name on some level has some effect on their chances, or are we kind of imbuing those names with something after the act? Well, it's interesting because if you look at the sort of average height of American presidents, they tend to be about six foot, and Michael Dukakis was about five foot six,

and he was convinced that held him back. Really? The classic bad name to be president bob doll bob doll yeah yeah yeah you're getting nowhere bob i'll tell you that for now save your money keep your deposit i played five side the other night and someone who hadn't been in goal all night said oh don't worry i'll go in at 8 59 with with less than 60 seconds of the game left. And you're like, yeah, that's the kind of thing Al Lewis of New York would do. That's the spirit. Just because his hands are getting a bit cold.

He wants the gloves, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So with Hoover's background, he spent eight years as Secretary of Commerce, as I said, and he was seen as a steady pair of hands. You would think that he's the kind of person you'd want in charge if things were going wrong. But within six months of Huber taking office, in those days, I should say, presidents began their term in March and not January.

Wall Street, as a Darlau historian put it, first caught a cold and then it came down with a serious fever. So he's in big trouble and his presidency never recovered from this. He's in big trouble and his presidency never recovered from this. Yeah. It's a bit like when I worked in Safeway Bakery when I was 18, a new bakery manager came in. On the first day, he made the fundamental mistake of forgetting to order flour, which if you're looking at sort of difficult start to someone's new role. Bakery without flour.

A completely unworkable situation. His answer, he said to me, what we're going to do, guys, is we're just going to replace the bread on the shelves. We're just going to make loads of donuts. So that's what they did. And then all the bakers went home and I was left on my own in the bakery having to explain to people who came in that there wasn't any bread, but there were 500 donuts if anyone and i imagine that's how hoover felt when everything collapsed basically

when he just started well if you think it's bad for him or bad for you having to try and sell donuts instead of bread which incidentally is not a like for like replacement exactly vice advice is he went to the shop to buy bread and she came back with donuts instead I think she'd lost her mind don't worry the kids can have donuts at breakfast

do you want a donut sandwich not really they want a jam on toast it's basically that isn't it well if you think it's bad you know the person not buying flour

at the bakery James Scullin who became Prime Minister of Australia on the 22nd of October 1929 which one week prior to the start of the worst of the chaos on Wall Street. And he obviously was under huge strain because he was trying to find solutions to the slump and it almost killed him.

Now, the Australian Labour Party, which had won the 1929 election in a landslide, it didn't only split, it was reduced to a rump in parliament form and it didn't recover from that until 1941 so there were these enormous after effects these aftershocks to this yeah global financial earthquake britain's labour party that was another one very nearly destroyed by the effects of the depression and in quite similar circumstances so the labour party had come into office as a minority government earlier in 1929, but it eventually split in the summer of 1931 over what to do. And had it not been for the faction of miners MPs from South Wales, including people like Eneirin Bevan, it's very likely that the Labour Party would not have survived this moment. And everything then in Britain after that point would have been very, very different. You wouldn't have had Clement Attlee winning the election in 45. Might not have had an NHS.

You wouldn't have had Ed Miliband with his big tablet. You wouldn't have had that. The Ed Stone. You wouldn't have had Ed Miliband falling off the stage. You wouldn't have had Ed Miliband eating a bacon sandwich. None of these things. All these great Ed Miliband memories. Ed Miliband's best of would have been 10 seconds long.

Exactly. You wouldn't have had Ed Miliband saying, hell yes, I'm tuss enough. You remember that? Oh, my God, yeah. None of those would have happened. You really can't guess, of the three of us, which of us was writing on a satirical show

around the time Ed Miliband was trying to become Prime Minister. Absolutely seared onto Tom's memory. Now, all over the world, the cause of democracy, which had advanced since the collapse of the old European empires in the wake of the First World War, suddenly which 26 could be considered parliamentary democracies, either as republics or constitutional monarchies. By 1940, the only ones to survive were Britain, Ireland, Sweden and Switzerland. That is incredible. And only Ireland had come into existence as an independent democratic state since 1918. This was happening in other places across Central and South America.

There were coup d'etats or coups d'etats. I don't know what the plural is. Coup d'etats is what I'm going to say. There was assassination. There was dictatorships. And in the Americas, apart from the US, Canada, Costa Rica and Chile, places struggled to emerge from the Depression, holding on to their democratic principles.

So imagine a recession so big that everything is up for grabs yeah even the way we're governing ourselves is potentially fragile yeah i don't think you can knock say living through a pandemic and how worrying that was but when you compare it to the the 20s and 30s and then obviously the war i just don't know how people survived, really. Yes, absolutely. It is a horrible time, isn't it? Because if you've survived the First World War, you've got the trauma of that. Yeah.

And then you've got a few years, then you've got the Great Depression. And then you're only a decade off the Second World War. Exactly. And then even in those countries where democracy was retained, political systems were being tested because Britain only had one general election

between 1931 and 1945. Wow. Yeah. That's almost twice as long as a period of electoral abeyance between 1910 and 19 that was caused by the First World War. And in the same period, by contrast, Ireland had six elections. And then you had Sweden and Switzerland, which were rather more stable. They had four apiece, which was, you know, according to their normal schedule. So that sole British general election held in 1935 produced so lopsided a result that had the parliamentary system not been sufficiently robust, authoritarianism would have been very easy to impose. So there's just all this

turbulence. Yeah. Blimey. So you had political turbulence at the top of the system, and then that was matched by a rising tide of organised political activity at the grassroots. So there's a Welsh novelist, very famous in Wales, called Gwyn Thomas, and he was a student in the early 30s. And he later remarked that we marched almost as a way of life. So there were a series of hunger marches in 1930, 31, 32, 34 and 1936, as well as the Jarrow Crusade, the Jarrow March,

all of which tried to galvanise public support for measures to support the unemployed and their families. You had massive demonstrations across Britain, events involving hundreds of thousands of people protesting against things like the means test. And then you had political extremes, you know, you had the Communist Party on the left, British Union of Fascists on the right, they began to gain support. And then you had new media outlets like the Communist Daily Worker or the BUF, the Black Shirt and Action. Just like now, you had complaints that the mainstream media were not doing their jobs, were being corrupted either by capitalism or by the liberal establishment. And then you had industrial turbulence, you know, there was a wave of strikes.

There were stay-down strikes, which involved workers remaining underground for an extended period. And when you think about it, in this context, Hitler came to power in 1933. Then you had the rise of the Japanese Empire and his invasion of Manchuria in 1934,

the terror in the Soviet Union, and then the famine in Ukraine. So the political fallout, the Wall Street crash and the slump that followed was so catastrophic, so disastrous and dangerous, that really it's seared into our collective memory because the three of us, our grandparents were alive during the 20s and 30s. Yeah, absolutely. What I find quite scary, though, are the parallels now

with what is happening now with the movement in politics with as you say the suspicion of the media all these other things yeah populism especially yeah there's there's such a sort of clear line between the two fascinating you know it makes you think doesn't it it does and also like the what were the major conflicts in our lifetime oasis v Blur I can hear there's a mouse in Claire's bag next to me so I'm just going to move the bag out

what do you mean there's a mouse in Claire's bag they're doing building work next door and a couple of mice have come through that happened to us we had building work in our street and we ended up with mice.

Oh, don't say that. Claire's work bag is next to me and she's clearly left a snack at the bottom of it. And that snack is now being enjoyed by a little mouse. And I want to get the bag out of the room. Oh my God. Tom, can I suggest a cat? I think we might get one. Can I suggest, more specifically, my cats?

Help me out, mate. Your allergen-ridden cat. Yeah, yeah. It's a real test of your kids' immune systems. I'm going to move the bag. If you hear me scream, you'll know the mouse has come out. Oh, my God. Give me two seconds.

Kick it, kick it. Oh, no. Don't kick it. I'm not kicking the bag. Please don't kick it. Please don't come out. Ah! Oh, my God. Sorry. No No it didn't come out

Oh my god Oh no where's he gone Where have you gone Oh my god This is horrific Is that going to be in the edit Yeah why not I think it was such

A squeal We have to keep it in the edit? Yeah, why not? I think it was such a squeal we have to keep it in the edit. Especially because we've just been talking about how our grandparents had to cope with the dislocations and trauma caused by the Great Depression. You moved a bag with a

mouse in it and gave a squeal. I mean, this is a reference for our listeners who are over the age of 45 that Bonnie Langford would have been proud of. It was very fast, Ellis, though. It really leapt up. Well, that's better. It's probably better that the mouse is fast

rather than it just sort of ambled across the room and looked at you. And it's sort of, come on then, get rid of me. Give me a nod. If you dare. Well, he's gone next door again now, so that's okay. So I'm going to talk to you guys today about one of the most loved songs of the Great Depression and how its writer carried its themes into one of the great Oscar-winning movies of the time. First of all, are you familiar with the song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?

Have you heard of that song? Yeah, yeah. Okay, here's a little bit of it now if you don't know it. Once I built a tower to the sun, brick, mortar and lime. Once I built a tower, now it's done. Brother, can you spare a dime? Some would argue it's one of the greatest songs of the 20th century. It was written by two New Yorkers, Harold Arlen and Yip Harburg,

and its lyrics speak of the lost innocence of America, about the effects of greed, the disinterest of the haves and the have-nots, and it tells the story of a sort of universal everyman, a bit like me, whose honest work towards achieving the American dream, Englishman, a bit like me, whose honest work towards achieving the American dream, English dream, a bit like me, has been foiled by the economic collapse. You know, things are a bit tight at the moment. So here are some of the cheery lyrics. They used to tell me I was building a dream and so I followed the mob. When there was earth to plough or guns to bear, I was always there right on the job. They used to bear, I was always there, right on the job. They used to tell me I was building a dream

with peace and glory ahead. Why should I be standing in line just waiting for bread? Now, my first question would be, is this the sort of music you'd be listening to in the middle of the Great Depression? Or would you be going for something like Pharrell's Happy or something like that? What would you be going for?

Do you think Radiohead are kicking themselves as they went around during the great depression genuine question would you be seeking out this sort of stuff no no this is interesting i don't know but when you think of say recessions in the 1980s and the music of people like billygg, for instance. I think there's quite a lot of power in hearing a musician summarise your personal circumstances. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I suppose that's it, isn't it?

It's maybe the feeling of a shared experience in other people. Yeah. Yeah, the collective during a difficult time in the country. If you've been dumped by your girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever, during a difficult time in the country. If you've been dumped by your girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever, you can listen to heartbreak songs and that can be quite cathartic. Absolutely.

I think Pharrell's Happy would annoy me. If Izzy left me, I don't think I'd be listening to Pharrell's Happy because I'd think that the radio was taking the piss. So I'll give you some background to this guy. Yip Harburg, who is the lead writer on this was 33 when the wall street crash sent the american economy tumbling down he'd worked his way out of searing poverty to become the owner of an electrical company which you like this joke ellis as any monopoly fans will know it's only really useful if you also own the waterworks yes because you double your money whenever a customer comes around. Anyway.

He can do Ed Miliband. He can do the 1930s. Is there anything Tom Crane can't write jokes about? If you want a middling gag on any subject, I'm your guy. Now, but the crash destroyed his business. This is the thing, leaving him with debts of over $50,000, which is equivalent to 1.1 million dollars now okay i've got a stomach ache i'm stressed how do you think you chip into a 1.1 million pound debt if that if that happened to you now what are you what's your what's your move a debt of a million quid 1.1 million 1.1 million quid are you thinking monthly direct debit to the bank what you're looking at what's your sort of what of nine grand yeah i've always thought i remember when i had a came out of

union had a student loan debt i can't remember how much it was but let's say it was like 20 grand it was such a big figure and i was on so little money at the time that i couldn't really wrap my head around it so i didn't even consider it debt yeah i was like that right okay i mean whereas if i was in debt of 500 pounds you're like well i've got this on about this that's interesting but 1.1 million pound debt i'll just go well yeah i mean i probably wouldn't take any financial advice off chris i think that's what martin lewis says i think it's a big one just ignore it just just just impossible to understand the big ones i'm pretty sure interest isn't a thing either it's just it's not real i'm sure not well yip had a plan and his plan was to pay off money

and keep afloat by turning to songwriting which i think if i was in that situation i tried to tell my partner it's all right i've got the answer and then said i'm gonna write some songs she'd say quite rightly have you lost your money that is not gonna get us out of this just to go back to martin lewis again i've never seen that on money saving expert.com yeah are you banging trouble debt wise yeah can you turn a tune out yeah so his initial work came for review performances on broadway writing vaudeville tunes scoring comedy sketches but his big break came from review performances on Broadway, writing vaudeville tunes, scoring comedy sketches. But his big break came in 1932,

when he wrote the lyrics for Brother Can You Spare a Dime, the song we've heard earlier, which was first performed in a satirical Broadway show called Americana and was an indictment of the Depression, the Great Depression, and who had caused it to happen, namely the fat cats. It's always the fat cats, isn't it? Have you met a fat cat so it's always the fat cat isn't it have you met a fat cat i have my friend aled had a literal fat cat who just used to who just used to sit on the sofa

because because he did he had overeaten well that fat cat was responsible for the global turmoil at that point such was the success of Brother Who Can Spare a Dime that his standing and fame started to grow quickly. And before long, he was offered a contract with Paramount in Hollywood, which eventually led to him landing his biggest job, which was writing the lyrics for all the songs on The Wizard of Oz. Wow. A film which resonated incredibly with a generation who had just struggled through the Great Depression. Here's some examples of why this film and why this music resonated so much with

them. The opening scenes set on a farm in Kansas where a violent tornado whips up a storm and sends characters and buildings careering into another world. To audiences at that time, this was a metaphor for the Dust Bowl, which is a period of dust storms that marked the early 1930s the beginning of the great depression so basically when farming techniques changed it meant that all the ground soil was whipped up and they lost the ability to to root crops and it had a huge effect on a country that was already struggling secondly the marching soldiers of the Wicked Witch, in that the audiences saw comparisons with the goose-stepping armies of European dictators. And the metaphors from the original book also still held resonance.

So the scarecrow was seen as the ordinary American farmer. The tin man was the struggling industrial worker. The cowardly lion was would-be political reformers who backed away from actually doing anything. And the Emerald City, with a wizard at its heart, was a stand-in for Wall Street and the financial interests. Obviously it wasn't Paris. Is this an interpretation or is this actually what the author was intending?

No. So these metaphors were written. The book was written in 1900. Oh, okay. But those were the metaphors that he had intended in terms of the characters, but they still held resonance. And this is what people drew from the film. So it really resonated with a generation that had

survived the great depression and even the most famous song in the movie over the rainbow which was completely harberg's own invention so that was that obviously was written for the film spoke to the viewing public um it's a song about the american dream but a new dream freeing itself from the collapse of the old dream. So that's the same dream that he'd railed against in his 1932 song, the same dream that led to the Wall Street crash. And as the lyrics say, somewhere over the rainbow, skies are blue, and the dreams that you dare to dream really do come true. So the whole thing was this idea of hope and moving past the horror of the Great Depression. And his film was incredibly important and his music was incredibly important.

First through the process when it was actually happening and also in the healing afterwards as people looked for a sort of new future, basically. And did he pay off his debts? He, yes, because he became one of the, he was one of the prolific songwriters of all time and also one of the most celebrated Hollywood songwriters of all time. Oh, I love that. So he had debts of 1.1 million. He made 1.2 million pounds.

So there you go. I'm not sure I've found that out. You've done a skull. I've done a skull. All right. you've done a skull I've done a skull alright for non-subscribers this is where we bid you farewell thank you for listening this week hey leave a rating review it is free

but if you want the fourth part to this episode if you want to hear about F Scott Fitzgerald and the Great Gatsby and the Jazz Age and the swinging roaring 20s that preceded the Great Depression you can subscribe to Oh Jazz Age, and the swinging, roaring 20s that preceded the Great Depression,

you can subscribe to Oh What A Time and become an Oh What A Time full-timer. Love that. You can do that at anotherslice.com forward slash Oh What A Time, or on Spotify, or also on Apple. If you want all those links, go to OhWhatATime.com, support the podcast, and help Tom pay for the mice infestation you may have heard of.

Yeah, help Tom out. The guy's literally got mice in his house. Help me buy three humane traps with which to catch the mice and then take them to a lovely meadow. There you go. If you don't subscribe, he will have to buy the non-humane traps and that will be on you. Thank you for listening. We'll see you again next week bye Thank you.