Oh What A Time... - #6 Sport

Episode Date: August 20, 2023

This week we're taking heed of our love for sport and taking a look at various ancient contests through the ages. From the incredibly popular (and dangerous) chariot races in ancient Rome, to the medieval origins of Shrovetide football via the history of the 'running of the bulls' and its most famous incarnation in Pamplona. We're now halfway through our first series which will contain 12 episodes that we’ll be releasing weekly. If there's an episode you'd like to hear, please let us know! And thank you so much for your support for the podcast since our launch a few weeks ago. If you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? (Thus taking heed of our increasingly desperate pleas for reviews). If you’d like to get in touch with the show (perhaps to tell us when was the worst period in history or if we've INEVITABLY got something wrong) you can email us at: [e-mail] We’re also on Twitter and Instagram @ohwhatatimepod Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). And thank you for listening!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and Casino. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Visit connectsontario.ca. Hello and welcome to Oh What A Time, the history podcast that tries to decide if the past was as awful as it seems. I'm Ellis James. I'm Chris Scull. And I'm Tom Crane. And each week on this show we'll be looking at a brand new historical subject.

And this week we're going to be discussing sport. From hippodrome racing in ancient Rome to shrovetide football to the running of the Bulls in Pamplona. Yes, indeed. This podcast is out every Monday. And thank you for your emails to hello at owhattatime.com. Charlie Partington's been on. Hello, Charlie. With an episode suggestion.

Great. Torture. We're going to get round to torture. Sounds like a laugh. Are you entirely sure that's not a description of the podcast? That's just a review from Charlie. Absolute torture. Please don't listen.

Does Charlie offer a reason as to why it might have some comic potential? Well... Torture. It's not something that people usually think of, is it? Sort of meat and drink to the comedy podcast community torture fortunately charlie has provided his credentials as a some sort of uh you know educational authority he is a p and science teacher um and he has taught year eight history he says that he would like to know more about methods of

torture and he has a particular favorite, that of Chinese water torture, originating in the 15th or 16th century in Italy, bizarrely, whereby cold water is slowly dripped onto the scalp, forehead, or face of the victim for a prolonged period of time. The pattern of drops was irregular, causing anxiety, as a person tries to anticipate the next drip, along with the jarring nature of the cold sensation caused by the water oh i mean it's not i mean i've been to the tower

london and seen the rack and all that stuff which you know i'm sure we'll cover in a torture episode a drip falling on your head at first you think i could live with that yeah yeah but i imagine over several hours slash days you're going to go insane the thing with Chinese water torture I instinctively think yeah alright I can handle drips but if it wasn't if it didn't work they wouldn't have carried on with it

yes absolutely so it must have got results there are no Wikipedia articles for the torture methods that didn't work it was fine. If Charlie knows of any other, I mean, I can't believe I'm saying this, hilarious methods of torture, then by all means, or if any of our other listeners know of any hilarious methods of torture,

send them in to hello at ohwhatatime.com and we will consider them. But I've got to be honest, it doesn't really jump out at me as a really, really hysterical topic. Yeah, I face some resistance trying to get this topic over the line. So listeners, please help. Here's how you can get in touch. All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show.

You can email us at hello at oh what a time dot com and you can follow us on instagram and twitter at oh what a time pod now clear off this week i'm going to be talking about hippodrome racing in ancient rome and the riots the mad fans that supported it. I am discussing ancient kinds of football, the earliest incarnations of football, in particular, Shrovetide football. This week I am talking about the running of the Bulls in Pamplona and how it has a history that predates the modern stag do. I thought we would begin with a quote from the English author and screenwriter

Douglas Adams who says this. During this century, the 20th, we have for the first time been dominated by non-interactive forms of entertainment. Cinema, radio, recorded music and television. Before they came along all entertainment was interactive. Theatre, music, sport. The performers and audience were there together. And even a respectfully silent audience exerted a powerful shaping presence on the unfolding of whatever drama they were there for. I thought that's quite interesting, isn't it?

Because in the past, we were about to talk about historic sports. You had to be there. And often you were part of it. It's such a different thing, isn't it? And crowds make a difference. Yeah. They really, really do. Like, lockdown proved this.

Football behind closed doors is rubbish. Do you want to hear something really lame on that, Ellis? I play football on a Tuesday evening. And we had two people watching last week. And it made a real difference to me, to my experience of the game. How lame is that? And they were mates of mates. I knew who they were.

It wasn't people who obviously came down because they'd heard there was a good game. They're not scouting you. I played on a Tuesday afternoon, and there were players playing after us on the same pitch. So we were like 1.30 to 3.30. So we were like 130 to 330, they were 330 to 430. So at 20 past, probably five or six people from the next game started watching. I don't think I've ever tried as hard in my life.

Because I got beaten, someone skinned me. And because they're young men, they were like 16 or 17, they were like, oh, he's dead. He's dead. You're dead. You're dead.

You're dead. He is dead. And I thought, I can't let this happen again. I cannot let this happen again. Have you, have either of you in general, have you played any sort of historic sports? Because that's what we're talking about in today's episode.

Because I actually have. I don't know if it is a historic sport per se, but at primary school, I was part of a country dancing troupe, which is technically a sport. It is a competition sport. I've done that. I've done country dancing, dansu gwerin in Welsh. How is technically a sport it is a competition sport i've done that i've done country dancing dance you're wearing in welsh is it how's it a sport well it's a competition

there are competitions in the west country but yes there are i i've entered into with my my troupe uh i've been it's pretty cool i've been uh at the same time i was a singer at bath abbey choir it's pretty cool period of my life uh but we've we've been in competitions um and uh yeah it didn't do very well but yeah it was it was a sporting thing how did you do do you remember uh we we didn't do great I was the uh my role was the fool do you know what the fool is this doesn't feel like something that happened in your lifetime why do you keep saying stuff that's clearly 500 years prior to you being born i should mention i'm 700 years old no the so that you have the the kids who could dance who were the country dancers and you had the kid who couldn't dance who was a fool and the kid who's a fool was given a stick with bells on

it and the idea is you're basically the village idiot for want of a better phrase but i would i'd dance around with this with this bell and whack it on the floor and kind of not dancing properly and the other kids would dance around me properly that's basically how it works your idea is you're supposed to be stupid and ridiculous in the middle yeah yeah it's so lame wow that's incredible you were the fool this will tell me an awful lot about you tom did you volunteer to be the fool or were you chosen to be a fool i was chosen to be the fool by our teacher. So your teacher looked at everyone in the class and said it's got to be him. Your teacher nailed it.

The cruelest thing, it was based on grades. That was the cruelest thing. I want to ask a quick question about the fool because obviously the court of Henry VIII, the fool was an actual job wasn't it? And I've always thought would you have been that funny?

Would a fool have been that funny around court? Isn't it just annoying? You know, were these fools that good? It's quite a status-based humour, isn't it? Love this guy. He is a fucking fool. But a lot of, you know, that was the nature of society at that point. We really was sort of hierarchy and strata, wasn't it?

I don't think it wasn't like stand-up. You weren't doing observational about sort of banquets and stuff like that. Michael McIntyre just following you around, going, what it was like to eat a big chicken leg. If you went back to 1600 and started doing observational in the modern style, you'd be huge, wouldn't you? Can you imagine? You'd have everything to choose from.

Talk about low-hanging fruit. You could do the works. It would be a piece of piss. You would be massive. There is the risk, though. If it goes badly, you're going to be beheaded. That is the risk. Yeah.

What's that Henry VIII about, eh? Right on, I think. Ever since he lost that joust too many wives if you ask me a bit weird i hear he's getting married how long until she's dead yeah more so today we're gonna we're gonna talk about old sport that's what we look at sport in the past stuff that's no longer around some stuff still is actually and see quite how horrific it was We're going to talk about old sport. That's what we'll look at. Sport in the past. Stuff that's no longer around. Some stuff that still is, actually. And see quite how horrific it was.

I'm going to be talking about chariot racing in ancient Rome. And how mad the fans were, basically. What a crazy thing that was. What are you guys talking about? I'm going to be talking about Shrovetide football. And now, thanks to the magic of social media, this has become known to a wider public, thanks to Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. And it never fails to blow my mind.

Yeah. Because the violence is mind-boggling. Absolutely. And I'll be looking at running with the Bulls in Pamplona. But why don't we begin with you, Tom? Let's go back in time. Fire up the chariots. Looking for a path to accelerate your career?

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Just not exactly like Dave. Save like only you can at TDinsurance.com slash ways to save. TD. Ready for you. Lately take you back to ancient Rome and also ancient Greek and Byzantine society. So basically this sport was called Hippododrome racing which is chariot racing if you've seen gladiators it's those chariots often with a single horse or with four horses uh that whipped around these huge stadiums um often they had 60 chariots racing at one time in these races yeah and crashes would sometimes include 40 chariots

there's records of 40 chariots having like a pile up it's just unbelievably dangerous sport you go round and round and round uh and these stadiums be full the stadiums had up to 150,000 people watching at one time that is incredible wow Is that the sort of sport, let's start by saying, is that the sort of sport that interests you? It's kind of, it's very dangerous. There's a real chance

of seeing death and it's fear injury in a packed stadium. Is that the sort of thing you think in the moment you'd get behind? If there were 150,000 of you there,

I mean, that's 60,000 people more than at Wembley. Also, I can imagine not everyone's going to have a great view. Not everyone's going to have a ticket, probably. Touts are going to love it, aren't they?

It must have been incredible. And also, I can imagine that they would have been just gods in their society and people would have absolutely, you know, you'd have looked up to chariot racers. I'm now going to sound like a very, very old person on Radio 4. They would have been the Harry Styles and and members of one direction of their day you're quite right these guys were absolutely adored now i'll take you through this the madness it was charity racing so there were four teams which were the green team the blue team and the red team and the white team that makes it sound like primary school it really does and they were simply named after the colours there was no other reason for that and the people you would choose a

team that you supported based on basically your favourite colour considering how violent it is that is too childlike a way of organising those games isn't it when you consider the potential for death you know why do you like why do you them? Because they're green and I really suit green. Greens of all kinds. The feelings people had towards these teams that they supported were sort of profound and really put them in the face of danger. So I'll take you through this, OK? So each team, depending on who you went with,

each team of chariot raiders had basically a group of hooligan supporters. Ultras. Ultras. A quarter of the stadium. So think sort of Toga with a Stone Island tag. It was real sort of all those CP company goggles. They were kind of, it was that real fanatical and sort of angry fan base. It would properly back whatever colour you liked.

That was a thing. These same people would also spend loads in the club shop. They had these little statuettes of famous... Key rings. Yeah, it was really marketed. They had statuettes of famous charioteers. And also you could buy something called a curse tablet, which you would pray to your gods

to wreak havoc and death on the opposition. So you'd go to the shop, you'd buy one of these tablets, and you would pray before the race that people would die on the opposition, basically. The thing is, right, it sounds daft. Oh, and they were willing to die and blah, blah, blah, because they loved those colours. I'm a big sports fan in particular football

football and the teams I support Swansea City and Wales play an enormous part in my life and so you are unable to criticise or poke fun at people for supporting the green team or the red team

because all of these tribal associations when you look at them rationally are slightly absurd but they mean an awful lot absolutely but the ones the guys that were sort of the best charioteers all this money sort of flooded through to them and they the amount of money they made even by today's sporting standards is incredible the best paid athlete um in history in all history is this giant guy called gaius apuleius diocles who was born in 104 ad he was a chariot racer and during his career he earned the equivalent of 15 billion dollars what so he's blown he's blown michael jordan and Tiger Woods out of the water there.

You wouldn't be able to spend all that money, would you? What do you do, especially at that time? What is there to spend it on? Wine, more wine. Exactly. Please set up a charitable trust. Please set up a foundation. That is incredible.

please set up a foundation that is incredible so i don't know if it was the sort of situation where you'd have like a like a sandal deal or whatever people would see the sandals that you're wearing and other people would what yeah adidas sandal exactly a really good deal with birkenstock or something but yeah i think it mainly came from your racing money but that's what he made throughout um his career and and these guys were like properly loved so much so here's an example there was one supporter who went to the funeral of a charity called felix and was so overcome by grief he committed suicide by throwing himself onto the guy's funeral pyre so he was at the funeral and it's just like i can't live if felix is dying and he threw himself onto the fire. That was one of the fans. There was so much behind them.

That's too much, isn't it? Wow. Calm down, mate. Yeah. Sort of thing you do at Gareth Bale's funeral? Yeah, I've offered, yeah. My people have talked to his people. I've let them know that should they want a really, really big gesture at Gareth Bale's funeral, I would do it for Bale or

Ramsay actually. Let's go down to what would that gesture be? You're at Gareth Bale's funeral, God forbid that happens, but let's say in six years time you have to do something which is really going to show people how much you cared. I think I mean, a funeral pyre

is preferable to climbing into the coffin with him, isn't it? As his coffin is climbing into the coffin with him, isn't it? Yeah. As his coffin is lowered into the ground, I will jump in, follow the coffin, and as I land on the coffin, I will detonate 100 pounds of Semtex, and I'll take everyone with us. Because I'll never forget you to 2016. People gathered round going,

what a fantastic tribute. What a gesture. He's really thought that through. Have you seen the clip of the guy who gets buried with a Bluetooth speaker and has pre-recorded a message like, let me out, I'm still in here, what's going on? Have you seen this clip? No. And the guy, like, so he i'm still in it what's going on have you seen this clip no and the guy

like so he's playing it at the funeral and at first it's like but then it's like it just turns you can tell it's a bit haunting for everyone this guy's done it as a joke like i'm still i'm still in it let me out what's it what's he saying i can't hear him and if it him. There's no way on earth I could find that for me. You'd also have to open up and check, wouldn't you? Yeah, I know. I think it's your responsibility to check that that is the Bluetooth speaker. That's the awful thing. Because there's a chance it isn't.

There's a chance that Grandad's still alive. And I don't want to be the person with the crowbar. Yeah, to check. No, it's just a Bluetooth speaker. We might as well take it out now. It's worth 50 quid. You know, on the chariot racing, I've actually been to that bit in Rome where it all happened.

I had a tour guide in Rome and they showed me. It was like a big kind of field. They were like, this is where it all went down. And they said that you'd be able to get wine on the day and stuff like that. Basically, it sounded like Glastonbury. I was like, this sounds amazing. And also, imagine it being so exciting to watch.

It's basically like F1, but with even more danger and drama. Well, it was exciting, but it also had this real undercurrent of hatred. also had this real undercurrent of hatred um so much so um that the ancient writer theophanes who he described some of the chants that was sung during these matches uh there was a famous one that the blues used to sing at the greens which was uh burn here burn there not a green anywhere that was their big one the idea of setting a light to the rival fans and the greens would uh wittily sing about set a light set a light not a blue in sight um so the songs were all about burning your opposition fans alive in a pyre it's really quite unfriendly yeah ellis if you were a green supporter and like the top blue chariot racer fell off the chariot, his head crushed and exploded, are you going like, you blue wanker!

Do you think it would extend? Or would you think, oh, that's a bit sad. It's difficult to imagine cheering that with the same figure you would cheer a last minute winner or a penalty. You know, or the final penalty in a shootout. the same figure you achieve as a last-minute winner or a penalty. You know, or the final penalty in a shootout. But I suppose... If you've been on the wine all day. If I've been on it. And it's dehydrated the suns out. And there's 150,000 people doing it as well.

It's a blessing that this was centuries before the big screen replays, to be perfectly honest. It's the last thing you know is a slow-mo of someone losing their forehead have that however um you think it's bad it all came to a head and i'll tell you this one thing this was the most extreme moment in chariot racing it's a thing called the nika riot which took place in 532 a at the Great Hippodrome, which is the largest building in Constantinople, which was capable of seating 100,000 spectators. Any

executive boxes? If you want a prawn sandwich or something. This is the first occasion that the Blues and the Greens had ever joined together, because they turned against their Emperor, Justinian, who basically not pardoned two condemned fans from both blues and the greens had ever joined together because they turned against the emperor justinian who basically not pardoned uh two condemned fans from both sides so one blue and one green fan had been scheduled to be executed in the hippodrome in front of everyone before a race

then the gallows broke people were already angry and then everyone went mad so they started looting and burning the stadium they destroyed destroyed large parts of it. It spilled out into the city. And by the end of the Nika Riot, which started from this one chariot race, according to John the Lydian, who's a writer from the time, 50,000 people died.

That is insane, isn't it? I don't want to laugh at the idea of 50,000 people dying. Obviously, it's horrific. But it spilled out so badly from this one moment, this one meeting, that 50,000 people died. It's just the numbers are so hard to get your head around and process. Also, you know how if you run, say, a newsagent near a football ground, on the day of a match, if you sell beer, you'll sell out.

You'll sell loads of crisps and chewing gum. You'll sell newspapers. There must have been a shop next to that ground that holds 100,000 people. As soon as it spilled out and 50,000 were dead, I bet he looked at his stock and thought, I think there's only one way this is going to end up. And I think the next few hours

are going to be very, very difficult for me. I wish someone had invented shutters. If anyone wants to loot my shop, I'm afraid I'm going to have to let them. They had Roman blinds, though. I suppose they could pull those across. That was famously had that then. But the effect of this, I don't know if you know this, the blues and greens were banned from competing in Europe for the next four years. blinds i suppose they could pull those across that was famously had that then but um the uh

the effect of this i don't know if you know this the blues and greens were banned from competing in europe for the next four years anyway but this is what life was like you would there's a good chance you could get killed if you went to watch it there's a good chance of people you're watching wouldn't get killed and it was just utter mayhem uh but for the people who um were racing there were billions on offer for them it's a mad sport and yeah i just the mind boggles that this was um but i also you are right i can see how it would have been exciting yeah and i think if i get if i had a time machine that this would be one of the places i'd like to go back and see like the chariot racing the 150 or the coliseum i'm so into all that i'd love to have seen what it looked like

yet again the caveat i always say is that i am a ghost that no one can see i am i am an invisible ghost again who has access to a 21st century toilet and my phone and i've got a charger and i'm a ghost and no one can see me. But yeah, absolutely. Do you think ghosts use the toilet, Ellis? I assume that's something you don't have to deal with anymore if you're a ghost. I've never seen that in a horror movie. A ghost closing a door and going,

I'll be back to haunt you in just five minutes. That's not part of being a ghost, is it? Surely not. Have you got any toilet paper? Ghost toilet paper? And a ghost newspaper? Maybe a ghost novel? I'll go next right what is it that unites

the three of us good looks young handsome men apart from the fact that we're so young and handsome generous lovers

what is it that unites and the fact that we're very generous lovers. Reading glasses. And I find we all, the three of us, wear reading glasses. Actually, quite a lot unites us. It's probably why we get on.

But the thing I really wanted you to say is we all love the bloody beautiful game. We all love bloody football. Bloody football. My true love. My true love. My one true love. Football. Yeah. So the three of us like football. Valley football. My true love. My one true love. So the three of us like football. Now, football, as we know it, began to be codified in

the 1860s, but a version of football has existed in England for centuries. The thing I really want to talk about today and it's, I sent you a little video earlier on, so I cannot wait to hear reactions to that, is Shrovetide football. So Shrovetide football, or mob football, is a game that was introduced in England in the 11th century. So we've been playing this for a thousand years in England, despite its apparent popularity.

Between 1314 and 1667, football was banned on more than 30 occasions. So these bans show how authorities were unable to suppress the game, as it would have been superfluous to repeat them. The first ban in question was by the Mayor of London, who issued a proclamation on behalf of Edward II, for as much

as there is great noise in the city caused by hustling over large balls from which many evils may arise which God forbid, we command and forbid on behalf of the king on pain of imprisonment, such game to be used in the city in future. So you could go to prison for playing football at one point. Is your love of football enough that you'd be willing to serve time for it? I'd die for it, mate.

Would you still do comedian's football if there was a risk you'd be willing to serve time for it? I'd die for it mate Would you still do comedians football? If there was a risk you'd do Bird Do Bird When do they classify it as a game? If you're kicking a bit of what would it even be then? Is it leather? Or is it just a human skull? At what point do they go you're playing football?

What's the line? I play football on a Sunday night and on a Tuesday afternoon and if you told me that I couldn't do that I'd go to fucking prison I'd die and I'd play inside as well they could put you in solitary

and you'd smuggle a ball into solitary and you'd do keepy-uppy for 15 years and it wouldn't be a problem I'd smuggle in a ball and another 21 men and a referee another 22 men. And a referee. Another 22 men. Hundreds of oranges. And a whistle.

And four stands and 30,000 people. And I'd also smuggle in programme sellers, hot dog sellers, the board for both clubs. A pub next door to the North Stand. Chairman, one of which I liked, one of which I didn't like. Yeah, director of football. A whole youth team.

Commentary team. Fanzines for, you know, a sideways look at the club that maybe isn't sort of officially sanctioned. I'd smuggle them all in. How much better would the ending of Shawshank be if he'd thrown the chess pieces through the poster and seen an entire

football stadium and community outside the prison wall? And the prison warden was like, oh my god. He's got 21 other players, a referee, two chairmen, a board of directors, 30,000 fans,

programme sellers, hot tags. What's he been doing for the last 30 years? That's where the smell of fried onions has been coming from all these years. And urine and cigarettes. You'd face prison for it, you know that much. Absolutely. Edward III banned it again in 1349 to stop it distracting men from practising their archery skills, which were needed for war,

as well as its tendencies to distract men from their duties there were also those who considered it too violent but but the football football back then is it is nothing like we imagine it now isn't it it is just carnage it's not like it's not it's not a pitch with two goals it's not like that is it what what what was the game then it's basically is it get one ball from one end to the other by any means necessary? Yes. So you'd have villages playing each other, or it would be a village,

and it would be sort of the upies versus the downies. So the top part of the video versus the top part of the village versus the bottom part of the village. And some of these games still exist. This is the bottom part of the village. And some of these games still exist. I mean, it is an absolutely extraordinary video. It's the Atherston ball game. So this happens every Pancake Day. It's an annual event. And the violence is, it is absolutely breathtaking. It's worth describing what you're seeing in this video, though. So it isn't anything like football. It's just a mass of people who live in the same village,

all of whom are punching each other in the face. And you can't see a ball. There's no idea where the ball is. It's like people are waiting on a packed train platform. It's that packed with people, and everyone's getting punched and kicked in the face. I've watched the extended highlights and you get moments of pure violence, people getting punched in the face

and then children get given the ball and they get to kick it a little bit further down the high street. And I find it so jarring, the scenes of brutality that clearly look like something from a thousand years ago, but it's happening outside of William Hill. Yeah. Which has been boarded up. Yes.

Because they knew it was going to kick off. So these games are played by two teams from neighbouring villages or towns. The goalpost of each team is at the centre of each village's square, and the aim of each team is to pass the ball to the opponent's goalpost. I think the rules vary from village to village,

or from game to game, because there's not very many of them left. So they've all got their own sort of regional idiosyncrasies players kick and carry the ball using their feet or hands similar to contemporary rugby plays a part alongside feasts related to the annual circle of agricultural work such as harvesting now this is all well and good and if you're interested in history like the three of us are fascinating to study my issue is i'd want to get my sort of head kicked off my body outside super drug um when harvest doesn't mean that much to me but i just go to shop in my local budgings or tusco so in england and scotland some old annual village games known as folk football still survive folk football matches as i said they feature huge

scrums which two parts of a given village compete during several hours to bring the ball to the goal. Several hours? It's really, really hard. Hornby, in 2008, counted nine dead players in football matches since 1800. Five were drowned, two had a heart attack, one died because of hypothermia, and the last one was impaled on a fence.

What a way to go. How are you getting impaled on a fence? Wow. Yeah. Like a lost glove. Is it something you could see yourself being drawn into? Do you think if you lived in a village that played this game, is it something you'd give a go?

I think I've got too much of an instinct for self-preservation. Yeah, and I think it feels highly likely you're getting your nose broken. Who wants that? Yeah. I also just don't care enough. I would find it so difficult to get beaten up outside cash converters because I'm trying to throw a sort of ceremonial leather ball into the middle of my village square.

I would just be like, can we not all go for a drink? I actually think you'd be quite good at it, Ellis, because you've got a very strong lower half to your body. Nice low centre of gravity, and then what would happen? I'd get too low, and suddenly I'd be at the bottom of a 300-man ruck. so i'm here to talk about running with the balls at pamplona the festival of san fermin

have you ever been on a stag do there have you ever done this has it ever come up i i've definitely been in my life it's been talked about as a stag do destination, but thankfully I've never actually done it. No, I've got a lot of my extended family are dairy farmers. So I have been in and around the bulls

in my time. And I think they should be left alone. Yeah. I cannot stress that enough. Do you think there should be left alone yeah is is that i i cannot stress that enough would you do you think there should be a like just a particular part of the country or the balls kingdom where all the balls are just let them get on with it they're nowhere else they're not you know they're just we choose we choose one county yeah and that's where all the balls are put and maybe put all the lines in there as well

anything dangerous just put it there pen them in i just why wind a ball up half the time it doesn't even need winding up well i actually did something i did something so stupid my family did something stupid we went to ireland i've got some family in ireland and i went to see like my mum's uncle or something like that and he had a farm and about three or four of us were wearing red jumpers and we were for some reason we entered the field where the ball was and the ball charged for us yeah we were I mean I was about six we had to dive over a wall that's absolutely terrifying but someone told me that this is actually a bit of a myth that they go for red but I was definitely charged by a ball when I was about six I've heard that it's actually a bit of a myth that they go for red, but I was definitely charged by a bull when I was about six.

I've heard that it's a myth as well and that they're sort of colourblind or that they're not bothered by red. I think it was probably more bothered by the fact that there was suddenly a cockney in its field. Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah, absolutely. It was the accent.

It was the Essex accent. Dressed like a chimney sweep with a red jumper on. Yeah, I think it was anti-English sentiment from an Irish bull. I think it was the fact you were wearing a red jumper. That's not an issue. I even don't like walking through a field of cows

or just cattle. I really don't like that either. I'm that nervous. It's just the size of these things. It doesn't have to be a bull. Even cows freak me out. I wouldn't go to the running of the cows if it was in Palladon. I wouldn't even risk that. What kind of animal would you do the't go to the running of the cows if it was in Pamplona. I wouldn't even risk that. What kind of animal would you do the running of? The running of a cat, Sidewatch.

Yeah, okay. That's a good question, actually. What is the biggest animal in Pamplona you'd be willing to run through the streets with? The running of the hamsters. I'd be scared of stepping on one. The running of the small dogs that are kept in posh people's handbags.

Yeah, I wouldn't do big dog. I wouldn't do geese. No, no. Absolutely wouldn't do geese. The running of the small dogs that are kept in posh people's handbags. Yeah, I wouldn't do big dog. I wouldn't do geese. No, no. Oh, my God. Absolutely not. Running of the Great Danes. Sheep. I would do sheep.

I'd run with some sheep. That's fine. Yeah, I don't know. I just don't want to wind any animal up. And certainly, the idea of being gorged by a bull. Because then you end up in hospital and you've had your liver ripped off or whatever mad injuries happened to you because you've wound up a bull and it's gorged you on its horns.

And then your mum and dad are there and they're like, do you not wish you'd gone into IT? Once the surgeon has sewed you up and is asking how this has happened, you're having to admit that it was your fault. You encouraged this. You travelled to this city to be chased by the bull and now they're having to use hospital time. And it got you.

And it got you. I like winding up big, sort of scary animals. It's quite a rush, quite an adrenaline rush, but obviously it's a high risk, high reward. Anyway, back to the bulls. Anyway, back to the bulls. Yeah, back to the bulls. Shinobu's gone on 400 years.

400 years. And it started because kids, like, the bullfighting was only for the really rich. So the kids would run along with the bulls as they were on the way to the bullring. And that's how it began 400 years ago. The kids. Oh, good. Kids were mad 400 years ago. The kids. Oh, good. Kids were mad 400 years ago. I wouldn't even let my daughter ride her bike in the garden on grass without wearing a cycling helmet.

I allow my kids to run alongside a bull for a laugh. Parents 400 years ago did not give a shit, did they? I wouldn't let, genuinely, I wouldn't let my four year old watch a video of the running of the bulls in public. And I mean that for fear that he saw something horrific, let alone him actually be part of it. The route is 850

metres through mostly cobbled medieval streets, happens every summer. Whenever I've thought, obviously I've thought about what my tactics would be but i think you're pretty i heard once that you can kind of you can go and you can start at any point on that 850 meters but basically you're considered a bit of a coward if you only if you plonk yourself on the 849th which is exactly what i would do like yeah I'll take the booze from the locals.

No, thank you. I'm not starting there. I'm not on the starting line, thank you very much. Absolutely no chance. Here's something that surprised me. They've started keeping records of people who die in the running of the balls. They started that in 1910. Have a guess how many people have died since 1910.

25. Eight people. About halfway between years. 16 people since 1910. Have a guess how many people have died since 1910. 25. Eight people. About halfway between years. 16 people since 1910. 16 people, yeah. Which feels to me... That's fewer than I'd have thought. That's fewer, yes.

So 16 people since 1917, I think you said, have died doing this. There's no way that would happen here. Well, funny enough, there was a ball run in England. The last one was the Stamford Ball Run, which ran until 1839. It ran for 600 years, but stopped in 1839.

At the time, it was finished. It was described as an old-fashioned manly English sport and an ancient amusement, but eventually it was considered

illegal and disgraceful. And do you know how much these, the typical balls that run, the running of the balls, they weigh about 1,300 pounds. And do you know how much these typical bulls that run, the running of the bulls, they weigh about 1,300 pounds. And then the larger ones up to 1,500 pounds. And they use Iberian fighting bulls.

Being chased by an angry car. Yeah, essentially. These Iberian fighting bulls they use, they do not run in the face of danger. They attack, known to be a trait of the Iberian fighting balls they use, they do not run in the face of danger. They attack, known to be a trait of the Iberian fighting ball. So what you're telling me is diplomacy is key. Georgia is better than World War. It's so wildly dangerous.

I'm also thinking about whether you'd enjoy watching it. Like we talked earlier about the joy of being a spectator at a sport. If you're one of the people leaning out of the window, because that's what it is, people live along this street, would you want to see it or would the potential horror of seeing your neighbour squished against the wall be too much for you? Oh man. People

living on those streets, imagine you're doing a Zoom meeting. So also that background noise, oh it's the it's the running of the ball, it's a kind of coming of age thing. The screams you can hear are a bloke who lives two doors down he's had his kidneys spliced open

by a bull's anyway just looking at the figures for Q1 and Q2 as blood splatters up the window in the background I've realised I forgot to move the car which is worrying me a bit. I think, in conclusion, what I've learned is,

I think it's actually, the problem with this is it's mainly men, isn't it, throughout history, come out with stupid shit, stupid things to kill themselves, basically, in the name of entertainment masculinity it is toxic isn't it historic toxic masculinity sport has given me in defense of sports sport has given me some of the best memories best experiences i've ever had and all cultures in history have have had sports of some kind. It's actually very, very natural to play some sort of sport. There's not actually that much you can do. Hitting something with a bat, running, kicking it, catching it, throwing, which is why, you know,

sports have, they have similarities to other sports and other cultures and things. And it's actually a very, very instinctive thing for humans to do to sort of invent sports. I would say running away from a bull is slightly different. Yeah, I mean, not every... You could have been left in a room with a pen and paper for hundreds of years.

You wouldn't have come up with that. Oh, I don't know. I reckon that's probably idea number three or four, actually. Football first, rugby second, then cricket, running of the bull, tennis. So should we conclude as to which of these crazy sports from the past, if we had to get into one of them, which we're going to get into? So mine was chariot racing in the 150,000-seater stadiums

where often the fans would murder one another, the riots would spill out into the streets, but it probably was a bit of a laugh. I wouldn't mind making £15 billion though. You're not getting that in a game of Shrove Tide football, are you? Yeah, exactly. Well there we have it. Thank you so much for listening

to this episode of Oh, What a Time. We are back next week. Of course, new episodes drop, as they say in the 21st century, every Monday. If you enjoyed it, we sincerely hope you did, please leave us a review, because not just to massage our egos, even though obviously that is very nice. Believe it or not, because of algorithms,

it does help people find the podcast. So you're not just helping us, you're actually helping others. Which I'm led to believe is quite a satisfying thing to do, I've heard. Yeah, and also I think it's the key to happiness from what I understand. And also, if there is a heaven, it seems like the

sort of thing that would go in your favour. I'm so glad we're finding fresh ways to beg and borrow five star reviews. They mention that in the Pernikits. You didn't seem to leave any five star reviews on the podcast you like. How many hours did you spend listening to that?

And you didn't even leave one five star review? As you see the clouds parting beneath your feet. What, and audio is your favourite medium? Thank you so much for joining us, guys, and we'll see you next week, I guess. Yes. Goodbye. Bye.

Bye. Thank you.