Oh What A Time... - #8 Parenting

Episode Date: September 3, 2023

This week we're taking a look at how different societies have dealt with the rearing of children through the ages. From the militaristic upbringing offered by Sparta to coming of age ceremonies from all corners of the globe, plus we check in with 16th century England's version of NHS Direct; “The Boke of Chyldren” by author Thomas Phaer. Our new feature ONE DAY TIME MACHINE has had our inbox red hot this week. Listener Jo wants to travel back to smash up a certain wet market in 2019, while Stephen wants to head to Dallas in 1963 to set a few extra cameras rolling (potentially getting himself arrested in the process). Let us know where in history you'd like to go for one day and also please fill us in on your time travel rules: [e-mail] This first series will contain 12 episodes that we’ll be releasing weekly. If there's an episode you'd like to hear, please let us know! And thank you so much for your support for the podcast since our launch a few weeks ago. If you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? (Thus taking heed of our increasingly desperate pleas for reviews). We’re also on Twitter and Instagram @ohwhatatimepod And thank you to Sam Parry for his help with this week’s research. Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). And thank you for listening!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Crypto trading involves risk of loss. See Kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer for info on Kraken's undertaking to register in Canada. And see what crypto can be. I'm going back to university for $0 delivery fee, up to 5% off orders and 5% Uber cash back on rides. Not whatever you think university is for. Get Uber One for students. With deals this good, everyone wants to be a student. Join for just $4.99 a month.

Savings may vary. Eligibility and member terms apply. Looking for a collaborator for your career? A strong ally to support your next level success? You will find it at York University School of Continuing Studies, where we offer career programs purpose-built for you. Visit continue.yorku.ca. Hello and welcome to Oh What a Time, the history podcast that tries to decide if the past was as awful as it seems. I'm Ellis James. I'm Chris Scull.

And I'm Tom Crane. And each week on this show, we'll be looking at a new historical subject. And today, we're going to be discussing parenting. From the very militaristic upbringing offered by Sparta to various coming-of-age ceremonies from throughout history to the sort of healthcare offered to children in 16th century England. Lovely stuff. Welcome back to the show. Look, last week we launched a brand new feature,

One Day Time Machine. Crane, over to you. It is Britain's hottest... No, it is the world's hottest new format point. Quick course correction there. Exactly. So much so, so much so, that we wrote a jingle for it. Fire the jingle.

It's the one-day time machine. It's the one-day time machine. It's the one-day time machine. It's the one-day time machine. The idea of one-day time machine is you can go back to any point in history. You have one day to spend. And what are you going to do with it? Who are you going to see?

You know, what's the vibe, basically? And also, what are you going to do with it who you're going to see you know what's the vibe basically and also what the rule what are your rules i think this is such an important aspect of this feature yes what are the rules you're creating for yourself and you're this time machine that you've invented yeah for me the biggest thing because if i was going back in time i'd be scared of getting trapped poisoned buried so how are you overcoming those that's what i want to know yes because last week when we launched the world's hottest new feature i became very panicked about this am i a ghost am i a coffee table can people hear me what do i know so we need to hear your rules am i drifting

through the time now i've got some uh some correspondents to come in on this subject should we get into them let's see what our lovely listeners send this way first of all uh joe horseman has emailed the show to say hi guys i love your podcast and the relationship between you all it's such a positive podcast that always cheers me up oh yeah that's nice it's just a lie it's through gritted tea she has said Joe Horsman has said if I had a time machine I'd go back to the wet market in Wuhan

circa December 2019 and destroy any stools selling pangolin or bat how would you do that though what are you going to do turn up with a baseball bat and just start smashing everything up Jesus in the temple

flipping over the is it like that how are we imagining Joe Horsman going mad in Wuhan what did Jesus do in the temple flipping over the is it like that how are we imagining Joe Horseman going mad in Wuhan what did Jesus do in the temple

well didn't he go he flipped all over all the stands he was like what's going on did he yeah

like he was in Led Zeppelin I can't remember exactly what it was I think it was something to do he flipped over all the tables

and said what's going on you had a religious upbringing. How is this the best you've got? You've made him sound like a West Ham fan, offence, Chris. What's going on? I can't remember the exact ins and outs. It was something to do with the farmer's market affecting trade in the high street.

I think he was annoyed. I don't know. Tom, you've made the bible sound fantastic you've only been on the tables and shouting what's going on do you want some what's going on that was his catchphrase isn't it what's going on do you want stuff it's not jesus it's what's going on and do you want some? Those are the main ones. That's when he was talking about wine. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah.

Well, how would you do it, Chris, if you had to destroy... Because my thought is you destroy the first table, the first pangolin stand, and you're immediately arrested. What are you doing? You're battering the pangolins.

You're immediately arrested. It's not their fault. Well, I don't think you have to hurt the animals, but I think you just need to destroy the way I would say If you turned up At Wuhan wet market

With a baseball bat As I was smashing Around pangolins I think you're actually Going to do You know The spread of Covid May have been far worse

Yep Isn't it It's going to be Absolute carnage in there I don't even know How you'd go about it What could you do I think the best you could do

Is go back in time And maybe have a strong word With whoever's running the gap Yes I think a strong word Is probably That would always be My first choice george joe is better than war war i am a ghost from three years time so you really really need to believe me okay do you remember quantum leap what's that under your arm is that ghost toilet paper so that's joe so joe's

gone back to uh to stop the pandemic which i think is quite a selfless thing steven steven baker he's uh emailed the show with a more classically historical take but one also made me laugh he'd go back to the 22nd of november 1963 which fact fans was the assassination of john f kennedy yeah he's made it very clear in the email not to stop it but to simply find out what happened to put an end to the speculation so i like the idea he's made it very clear in the email not to stop it but to simply find out what happened and put an end to the speculation. So I like the idea. He's gone back

and he's in a position where he can stop it and he's gone, no, no, no, that's not why I'm here. I'm afraid I'm going to need more detail than that. Where are you going to go? Are you going to the Texas Book Depository? Well, he has actually given more detail. If you see Oswald firing the shots,

is that going to be enough for you? Are you going to go grassy knoll? Where are you going? actually given more detail. If you see Oswald firing the shots, is that going to be enough for you? Are you going to go grassy knoll? Where are you going? I want the detail. Well, that's the thing. You don't have to put on a Texan accent and say, there ain't any grassy knolls around here. I'm not entirely sure what a grassy knoll is, actually.

I'm assuming it's kind of a grassy bank, but as a texan i mean i'm from texas myself i should know i need to do some book depositoring today and then after he shot the authorities go well it was clearly that really weird guy who kept yeah he put on a strange accent and i should briefly butt in here just to say that i do steven a disservice what i read there was a strict back version of his email. He's explained that he would fit in by only having 1960s video equipment. And he set it up to film the book depository, the grassy knoll and the motorcade. All the main areas covered in the film that day.

And then he basically, yeah. It's like a Hollywood shoot. What's he doing? Is he leaving all those cameras rolling and then running around the place? The Secret Service, their suspicions are surely going to be raised by the fact there's a man setting up about 15 all over the room who when he's interviewed slips from a texan into an english accident back again disappears into thin air back to the future so what we've concluded there is that stephen baker would go back and immediately be arrested for the assassination of John F. Kennedy that's what we can we can take from that um our final email that

I'm going to read today because we've had so many on this subject thank you so much for getting in contact yeah we love your stuff we love you getting in contact Darren Bond um has got in contact mainly because he's panicked about the dangers of using this one day time machine he said dear Ellis Tom and Chris I seem to spend quite a lot of time thinking about the dangers of using this one-day time machine he said dear ellis tom and chris i seem to spend quite a lot of time thinking about the safety issues around time travel and i'm not talking about the machinery breaking vaporizing you i mean your survival in whatever era you go to i think the further back you go the more you'd stand out even if you managed to don the correct clothes and as you spoke to people who try to exist i can't see any way that they wouldn't believe you

were a witch or a spy and shop shop you to the authorities for for a hanging or a burning at the stake in some ways and i think this is an interesting point i think it would be our superior knowledge of subjects have not been researched yet or a shrouded myth on false wisdom that would get you into the most trouble you'd have to bite your tongue a lot and keep your head down i think that's an interesting point actually this is why one of my okay i'm going to tell you one of my rules for one day time machine i am made of the toughest metallic substance i look fleshy but i'm actually impenetrable my skin cannot be scratched touched harmed i am basically made of metal i'm you cannot damage me you're t1000 yeah i. Yeah, I'm a T-1000.

With a solid form, and I can't be burned, I can't be scratched, stabbed, shot, anything. Like, you can fire a cannonball at me, I'll be absolutely fine. Half an hour in, Chris, and you've got your foot stuck in a kettle grid. And you've got to stay, you can't die, you've now got to stay there for eternity. How far back do you think you could go and fit in?

I reckon I could fit in back to about 1994. What? You're not turning up in 93. Who the fuck is this space age wizard? What do you mean? No, no, sorry. I've gone back as a child. I've gone back as an adult.

Yeah. You could fit in, I reckon, until about 1910. I think you could go back. I think any further back than that and you would be weird. 1910? You reckon you could fit in in 1911? The 1920s were a swing in time. No, they weren't.

They were a swing in time for about 300 people when in when in south wales or the north of england was like yeah this is great actually now chris i i appreciate your angle there of you having this sort of uh impenetrable suit personally i think you just need to go back as yourself and and run the risk that's my take on the time but um i there's one thing that has been raised here um by deron which weirdly i was talking to my wife about last night was this idea of this knowledge i think i have such a fundamental lack of understanding of how to do any of the big inventions that even if I did go back you know, prehistoric times and they were like, okay, so here's how you make iron. I'd start

and I'd sort of like trail off and I'd realise I actually don't know. Basically, I can make fire. That's rubbing sticks together. But nothing else. You could not make fire. Do not put that on your CV. Give me two months. I'd come up and I'd be able to make you some fire.

So you'll have to eat berries and fruit until I've done that. So you'll probably catch a chicken up as we're getting towards the end of the two months and we'll cook that. I mean, it is a Richard Curtis film. And obviously it's also mentioned in... It's also referenced at the end of Back to the Future. But if you went back to

1960 and wrote a load of Beatles songs that would be, because they're quite easy to play Beatles songs. The Goodnight Sweetheart approach. Exactly. Nicholas Lindhurst goes back in time when he's in the pub just banging out hit after hit Richard Herring made

such a funny observation about Goodnight Sweetheart which for our younger listeners you might not remember. It was a sitcom in the 1990s starring Nicholas Lindhurst much loved Nicholas Lindhurst obviously he was super famous because of Only Fools and Horses and playing Rodney

where he was an East Londoner who had a portal back to the Second World War. So he would drink in his local pub on a Monday night, but on a Tuesday night, drink in his local pub, but it would be 1940. And you think he's gone. You think of all of the possibilities

that are available to him and are open to him, bearing in mind that he can time travel safely and predictably every time. Richard Herring said the paucity of his ambition, he goes back and he just shags the barmaid. That's all he does. It doesn't occur to him to kill Hitler. It doesn't occur to him to kill Hitler. It's quite a big ask, to be fair. I don't think that hadn't occurred to people during World War II, the idea of killing Hitler.

I think it was just probably quite a big ask. Ellis time travels back to the pub in 1942. Guys, have you guys thought about killing Hitler? What are you all doing? We're all sat around now. It's so obvious what needs to happen here. That's the classic thing, isn't it? When time travel

crops up as a topic of conversation, people say, oh, well, obviously I'd go back to 1920s Germany and I'd bump Adolf off. That's what I would do. That thought never occurred to anyone at the time. Right. Shall I just briefly tell you what I'd bump Adolf off. That's what I would do. That thought never occurred to anyone at the time. Right. Shall I just briefly tell you what I'd do?

I'd go back seven weeks and I'd relive these last seven episodes with you guys. It's been an absolute delight. There you go. There's a nice little closing. Are you dying? You've pulled it back after your Jesus impression. So, guys, if you have any further

one-day time machine suggestions, do get in contact. If you want to try, you know, the pandemic has been saved by Jo. She sorted that. We can't do that. Well, Stephen's tried to find out who killed John F. Kennedy and has been implicated himself. But anything you want to send us, send us as many details as you can as well.

What are you wearing? What's the accent? Whatever. Or do what Ellis does. Go back and kill Hitler, Mussolini, and just sort it all. Just get it all done. Just get it all sorted in a weekend. Pol Pot. Pol Pot. Get it all sorted. If you want to get in contact with the show, here is how. All right, you horrible lot. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show.

You can email us at hello at owhattime.com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at owhattimepod. Now clear off. All right, so on this week's show, I'll be taking a look at child rearing in Sparta. I am looking at medical care for kids in the pre-Cultball and Pyrrhoton age. And I am looking at incredible coming-of-age ceremonies throughout history. I thought we'd begin, as we always do, with a little quotation. This comes courtesy of George Carlin. If your kid needs a role model and you ain't it, you're both

fucked. Oh, George, are you watching me? Because I know that he died before I had kids. But that's creepy. Creepily prescient that. Oh, dear, dear, dear. What sort of parent are you, Tom?

What sort of parent am I? I am... I think I'm quite a sort of Empathetic, kind, fun parent That lacks all of the sort of practical skills For structuring a child's life Yeah, yeah But I think I'm quite good at play And that sort of stuff

And I'm good at listening if they've got a worry But I will forget to send them to school with a packed lunch and that sort of yes yes they won't eat all that time that you went to was it Duxford Air Museum and you forgot to put shoes on your child I think it was Hendon the RAF museum and we turned up and he didn't have any shoes on oh but to be fair he was he was in the back seat and I hadn't looked back throughout the journey it was an awful moment because Claire my wife had basically organized everything that day and it was my job to dress the children and then as we got them out in the car park we noticed he had bare feet oh man did did you turn around to go home well we then went to um I had to go off on a journey to find the a shoe museum, and it was actually perfect. I went to the next door. I can't believe it.

You had some 16th century clogs. The gift shop's at the end, so you had to go all the way through it. Yeah. Then went to the gift shop at the sock museum, and actually it worked out all right to them. So, no, I had to find a nearby Clark's. I was thinking about Clark's the other day. When I was a kid, do you remember, do you ever go to's and they had like this futuristic machine that'd measure your foot size?

Yeah, measure the width of your feet. Sounds like you're having an MRI. Like an MRI for feet. And this is like in the early 90s. Yeah, yeah. An electronic machine. They've got rid of that now because I took Charlie

to Clark's recently. It's just like a hand controlled, you know it's just like a hand controlled you know it's just sort of two bits of metal to see how long your foot is yeah they've they've gone back in they've gone back in time they must have been listening to this podcast so they're actually the old ways are better and more accurate because every every branch of clark's was renting that machine for 500 grand a day and it was not sustainable as a business and nasa needed it back as i say you see it's your nobile so if you put your foot in there as the as the machine closed in on your tiny little prepubescent foot

you were desperately hoping that it would stop when it reached your foot and not just keep going every 500 every 500th child would lose a foot, but Clark said it was worth it. It was worth it for the optics of having that through the shop window. And they got free shoes for life. But of course they didn't have any feet, so they were useless. I can genuinely say, knowing the nervous child I was, that would have petrified me.

I would have been scared of that, to be honest. That would have worried me. It's so unnecessary as well. It doesn't need to be. You just get a little measuring tape. What does it need this huge machine for? That said, I don't really trust the pushing on the end of the shoe technique that people do in new shoe shops.

No, I do it. It's never worked. Yeah. And they'll do it with my children's shoes, and I'll go, oh, yeah, that seems great. Then we'll get home and realise that they're like 15 sizes too big. This is what I do as well, where my children have new shoes bought for them. Can you just walk around the shop so I can have a look at how they...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That looks good, actually. That looks like a well-fitted shoe to me. I encourage him to do some jumps as well. If you could get down on your knees, Sort of like you're at the starting block In the Olympics of the 100m final On your marks Get set

And go Quick 10m burst So I can see how quick you are Over the first 10m or so If you're playing football I'll link up my Spotify with the shop audio I put on Riverdance We do that for about

About two minutes But yeah Okay, well that that's amazing. So that's the sort of parent I am. Ellis, what sort of parent are you? Completely lacking in authority. Okay, great. And what about you, Chris?

What are you like as a parent? I want to say chilled out entertainer. Yeah. Handsome. Do you remember coming into this episode, I was thinking a lot about, you know, I'm so glad I'm a dad at this time. Yes.

When we were giving birth to our two kids, I was in the hospital with all these machines and these doctors and hundreds of years of medical expertise. I was like, how did cavemen do this? How on earth did people give birth? Can I pick up on one thing, Chris, by the way? Use the phrase, when we gave birth. It's not a phrase i've used or heard but i like it it's nice but it's not does that make me a modern man to say we we did it together no or am i taking the credit where it's not due i think it means you're taking the piss man absolutely

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So I've been looking at the Spartans. When you think of Spartans, or I think of them, double hard bastards. Just infamously tough. Yeah, absolutely. Warrior nation. But I never knew how they did it until now. Right. Do you know, Sparta had a grueling system of state

education known as a gauche a system by which boys boys are raised by the state extremely disciplined compulsory mode of bringing up bringing uh bringing up children and it was unique to sparta so this is how it works if you're if you're born female you're kind of expected to spend your life at home you will become a housewife eventually if you're a boy seventh birthday blow out your candles you're off you leave maternal supervision you're turned over to civic officials and your military training and character formation begins right uh straight off i not going to thrive in this system. So they also like the education. A lot of focus was given to kind of physical education and developing strength through sports.

So hunting was a big part of it. Athletics was a big part of it. And you're doing real military training throughout your youth, including gymnastics, but you're getting taught how to move with others in formation, how to handle arms handle arms how to fence how to throw a javelin and you're in this until you're 30 years old do you know what it made me think of like no way tiger tiger you've seen tiger woods documentary i can't remember how i know this but his dad basically got in playing golf at like four and i, yeah. No, he was younger than that. It's absolutely incredible.

You see, I've seen clips of him, tiny kid, toddler, smashing his golf balls around. Yeah, playing golf at three. I mean, there are clips of him, there's clips of him beating other people at the age of three. And it's like this culture,

Sparta, like doing this to all the kids. They're turning them all into elite warriors. It's such a massive part of the society. No wonder they're so hard. The whole society was geared towards it. Can you imagine if it kicked off in a pub on a Saturday night but everyone's a Spartan who's been through that military training? It'd be absolute carnage.

Imagine being the bouncer on that pub. Oh my God. You're just watching all the Spartans filing in, getting steaming. And you're like... You're looking down at your lanyard and your walkie-talkie thinking, how much does this really get me though? Do you know what?

The other thing they did was like, it began... Although you leave at seven, the training process essentially starts as soon as you're born. You have to cut your own umbilical cord, don't you? Well, they left their limbs and bodies entirely exposed. They taught them not to be scared of the dark, not to mind being left alone and to restrain themselves from tears, screaming fits and tantrums of any sort.

You're basically fending for yourself from day one. It doesn't sound like a laugh. Just imagine how hard you'd be coming out when you hit 30. I'm going to say it. I genuinely think a four-year-old from Sparta could beat any of us. I wonder

at what age a Spartan child would be able to kill all of us. I think I could have a 10-year-old. Do you know what I mean? I think even if they're really well-trained. No, no, absolutely. That is nonsense. What, you think a 10-year-old Spartan?

He would have an absolutely meal of you. You'd know the points to go for. He's had three years of military training by this point. What training have you had? Have you done any martial arts or anything like that? So's a spartan this is a podcaster exactly fight a 10 year old spartan a 10 year old no no chance he would kill you chris and it would also he'd make it be humiliating as well he'd do it in a he just let it he'd draw it out like you chop off your ear and then two minutes later you take off your other ear no do you know what he'd do it in a... He'd just let it... He'd draw it out, like, he'd chop off your ear, and then two minutes later, he'd take off your other ear.

No, do you know what he'd do? He'd kill you, and then he'd pull... As he was killing you, he'd pull your trousers and pants down. And Ellis and I, we stood there laughing, saying, we told you so. We knew this would happen. Oh, it'd be awful. Do you know the other thing they did was, like,

they would group you into gangs of boys they would have group fights like regularly contests held between groups of boys and they said the lads would fight and kick and bite those on the opposition sides and quite often tear each other's eyes out

it's vicious I think you have to have a situation where somebody needs to be calling stop as soon as someone's going for an eye you can't let that play out and the eye come out can you another interesting thing they did was like they accustomed them with stealing but really punished them for getting caught with blows they essentially there's a uh a contemporary source with xenophon who says they trained the boys like this because they wanted them to be more devious at procuring supplies

and being warlike. It's interesting, there's stealing is seen as a really valued quality in Sparta. It's kind of captured, there's a famous tale they would tell of the boy in the fox cub and it's a story about a boy who allowed a stolen fox cub, he was hiding

underneath his clothes, to devour him rather than cry out and reveal the theft. Does that make sense? So he's stolen a fox cub and the fox cub starts eating him. We were all at school with mud kids. And the fox is going at him like he was a bin. And the fox was going at him like he was a bin. Yeah, and the fox eats him till he's dead, rather than cry out and reveal that he'd stolen a fox.

Wow. So that means that when he died, when did they find the fox? That must have been a fine surprise. They're going to find the fox when you're dead, mate. Imagine the doctor saying, can I shock you? The cause of death is fox.

And then lifts up a coat and there's a fox there looking awkward. So you live, until the age of 30, you live in barracks with 15 or so comrades. And at 30, and by the way, if you get married, you're not allowed to live with your wife. It doesn't matter. You can only visit her for purposes of procreation. Yeah. But after 30, you can move back in with your wife. can move in with your wife oh that's nice but also you're expected to have your main meal of the day with your fellow comrades in the barracks i'd say though

by the time you're moving back in with your wife you're a little bit scarred by the last 30 years a little bit weird and damaged yeah yeah i can't imagine you're like a really chilled out guy. Yeah, difficult to live with, probably. Oh, good. My severely affected husband, who's been beaten and forced to rip out the eyes of his friends for the last 30 years, is coming to live with me. Good, good.

I'm going to discuss parenting in England, something I know almost nothing about, because we parent in the Welsh way, but we're in England, which means that my children have been raised with a very, very different set of cultural values. So, Why Do You Acknowledge Me, with a very, very different set of cultural values. So the widely acknowledged to be the first book written specifically regarding paediatric medicine was The Book of Children by Thomas Farr, written in 1544. The book claims to be scientific, but it's got some really, really peculiar suggestions. So it covers most of the common conditions that children suffered from aches or colds to parasitic worms.

Dealing with lice. I mean, obviously, you know, the nit nurse is still a big part of every primary school. They were endemic in early modern society. Far advice is the afflicted to avoid certain foods. They are not to eat figs and dates and to wash in salty water or brine. Now, I've washed my children's hair in tea gel because I thought that they had net knits That was difficult enough Persuading my kids to wash themselves in salty water or brine

Child has urged to wear a cloth around the waist that has first been soaked in pig's grease and quicksilver or mercury Fart can confidently stay so lice cannot bear the smell of quicksilver I think it's safe to assume that this was prior to the smell of quicksilver. Oh, you're... I think we can... It's safe to assume that this was prior to the invention of the knit comb as well, do we think? Yes. Which we are a special part of.

By about 500 years. Yeah. I imagine, though, in my mind, I imagine everyone in 1544 had knits. Which would have been a complete ballick. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, God. Being itchy all the time would have been a nightmare. Is that itchy now? Actually, I read in the news yesterday,

they found the body of a man who died 30,000 years ago, and they were able to, I can't even remember how, they were able to work out, I think they were able to work out what his diet was, so they were able to look at his intestines, and they found that he was absolutely riddled with parasitic worms in his intestines yes i read this and then and then actually that might have been quite common at the time and i just thought if you've got parasitic worms and you know you probably know you've got them

there is nothing you can do about it absolutely nothing there is no lloyd's pharmacy the torture of that. I think, do we need to bring that up? Do we need to let everyone know that you have parasitic worms? He's embarrassed. Let that truth die with him. He's going to be embarrassed.

I was dug up in 500 years and someone said, oh, by the way, Tom had this. Don't do it. As he was dying, you probably thought, this is the end of the nightmare.

No one is ever going to know that the hell, thank God it's over. 500 years later. Look at this idiot. Could they not have said he might have had parasitic worms? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, completely. Barr's book opens by focusing

on breastfeeding. First he shares remedies appropriate to the increasing of milk in the breasts, including three simple soups. First he includes pasta and fennel in chicken broth. Women who couldn't find the fresh produce necessary for that recipe could make a broth with mint, cinnamon and mace. And if

none of those spices were available, women could always turn to a beef tongue broth with dried and powdered earthworms. Oh no. It's so close to being right, isn't it? It's the sort of thing Roald Dahl would come up with, isn't it? It's one of those sort of... Straight from the twits. Yeah.

That is such the cuisine of the time, isn't it? It is. It's one of those sort of... Straight from the twits, yeah. That is such the cuisine of the time, isn't it? That is bang on what I would expect a cure would be. Faros recommends many individual ingredients thought to improve milk production, among them dill, anise, fresh cheese, honey, goat's milk, lettuce, saffron and cow dung, sheep dung also fine. He's so close so many times if he just ended on

saffron I remember once my daughter the UTI when she was very little we had to take her to A&E because she was really ill and they thought she was a UTI but they needed to do a urine sample talking about the kind of parents we are and this is when she was still in nappies

so it was easier said than done. So in the end, they said, listen, just make her drink, sit her on your lap, and then when she starts to wee, catch it. So that's what we did. So we had to sit in A&E

with her with her sort of... Baseball club. ...nappy off. Just wait for it to wee on my jeans. Anyway, a couple of hours later, it worked. We caught the urine. Guess who knocked the cup urine. Guess who knocked the

cup over? Guess who knocked the cup over? Guess who knocked the cup over? Guess who knocked the cup over? Yeah, yeah. Absent. You should have seen Izzy's face. Probably my lowest moment, I think. Was it salvageable?

Was it stalled under the floor? I salvaged about, through my quick reflexes, salvaged about 5 mil, which was just about enough. But yeah, probably my lowest moment. If Izzy had been asleep, would part of you have been tempted to sneak off and replace it with apple juice or something like that? Yeah, or my own piss. Or your own piss.

Yeah, yeah. She hasn't got UTI, but she'd drink a lot of that. Yeah, or my own piss. Or your own piss. Yeah, yeah. She's like, I haven't got UTI, but she drinks a lot of alcohol. Espresso martinis. This is incredible. Whether the cause is eating, sleeping, winding or teething,

most of Farr's remedies are directed at stopping a child's crying. His entry for bloodshot eyes, a condition which Farr says comes about from too much crying. It's one such example. When the eye is bloodshot and unread, it is a singular remedy to put into the blood of a young pigeon

or a dove or a partridge, either bought from the bird or else dried and made in powder, as subtle as may be possible. Can you put the blood of a pigeon or a dove or a partridge into a powder and then subtly put that into your child's eyes? Can you be subtle about it? That's the question

I would ask. It doesn't sound like a subtle solution to what is quite a small problem. Oh, God. I mean... Even cowpoll with those syringes is tough you know the blood of a pigeon during the pandemic when you would have to go and take your child down to be tested those swabs and all these sort of things i mean yeah understandable and angry reaction from your

children because they have no idea what's going on why you have to do it yeah the idea of dropping something into your child's eye which has got impossible and also the flavors these things as well like i can't encourage my children to eat you know peas or whatever it's yes let alone something which has the taste of dung the residual taste of cow dung in it like how are they doing this my mate pointed point is to me that I think is quite astute. Because children can often like quite strong tasting stuff if it's on toast. Marmite, probably the best example. And yet they often dislike some things that, to my mind, taste fairly inoffensive. And I think it's textures that put them off and not

taste. So I think maybe cow dung has got an absolutely lovely texture. And kids are like, do you know what? Yeah, it makes me wince a bit, but that texture. Like Haagen-Dazs. Mmm. Cradle cap, bathing

bull's urine. Right. I'd rather just have the cradle cap yes yeah it's not that bad teething now teething oh no bearing in mind it's the year 2023

three of us have got young children it is incredible to me that teething still has such an effect on a baby my two year old is teething terribly at the moment and it messes them up yeah he's awake. It messes

the most. So crazy, isn't it? The most highly recommended treatment, and when your child is teething and you've been up all night and you've got work the next day and you're just desperate for a solution, you will do most things if someone has told you, oh yeah, this will work. So back in the 1500s,

the most highly recommended treatment, anoint the gums of the baby with the brains of a hare. Mix with equal parts capon grease and honey. The hare is used because it has big teeth. So it's sort of... I see what he's done there. I can see the arithmetic. He doesn't need to show me his working.

Why the brain? Because he thinks, oh, well, the hair's ability to control pain is in the brain, and then if you rub the brain on the teeth, it doesn't make any sense, does it? You're killing a hair. You're scooping out its brains. Yeah. You're mixing it with stuff, and then you're rubbing that on your child's teeth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And your child is going, what the fuck are you doing? Dung for supper, and now this. And also, books don't exist, so there's no bedtime story. Hiccups. Far explains that the cause is eating too much too fast. The treatment is to make the child throw up with a feather. That's the worst one. that's the worst one that is the worst one what you do you're sticking the feather down their throat can i just ask do we think that tickling the back of the throat till they vomit or just tickling them so much on the foot for example that it's not stopping

for four minutes until they vomit what's the use of the feather i hope it's the foot because i even now if my daughter picks up a feather, I'm like, don't! That's ingrained in me as one of the key things you need to know as a parent is don't let kids play with feathers, because they're dirty. They're covered with viruses. The idea of sticking that in your throat, like I don't even like holding a feather, whacking that down your thigh is absolutely gruesome.

Well, I'd actually say that some have saved the best for last. Piss in the bed. To treat bed wetting, avoid all fatty foods until the virtue of the bladder is restored. In addition, add the following as a powder to all food and drink. The windpipe or throat of a rooster, or the

claws of a goat. Either or. Take your pick. Whatever's easiest. A goat doesn't have claws. A goat has cloven hooves well uh i don't sharpen the hoof okay there we are so i uh by contrast i'm actually going to talk to you guys about the point where parents relinquish some of the control over their

children and I'm going to talk to you about coming of age ceremonies so there's a couple of coming of age ceremonies that I've been reading up about that I would like to take you through what is the coming of age ceremony in our culture?

what would it be? it's like your 18th really isn't it your 18th birthday you go to the pub yeah learning to drive yes i think probably it's quite a big thing which is something i fail to do i've still failed five times i haven't i haven't managed to do i think if you can i just say if if you fail five driving tests i don't think you should be allowed to take another do you know what i mean you're established as a i think if you fail five times if you pass on the sixth, that makes me uncomfortable.

Do you genuinely think that I should be not allowed now? You should be banned. It's a fundamental problem. Yes. You can't keep going back until you get one driving inspector who's maybe having an off day and accidentally passes you. Because that's what you're doing. You're basically just rolling the dice you're just

waiting for your number to come up yeah yeah roundabouts were my big problem that's where 80% of my failures were round about just the 80% yeah yeah what are you doing how could you get that wrong you're going around the wrong way what I fundamentally never I never got my head around what was what I was supposed to do give way to give way to the right well that's the easy view to say give way to the right that's pretty much all of it yeah so i would head towards them with absolute blind panic and basically be reliant on there not being anyone else on the roundabout yeah if there was no one else on the roundabout then i was going to pass that test but unfortunately every time i went towards the roundabout there was someone on the roundabout one of my mates um

had a car crash on his first driving test coming out of the car park to begin the test. He was coming out of the car park and crashed into a car he was driving along the road. The instant failure. 30 seconds into the test, a crash. I can beat that, actually. When I went for one of my tests, the person before me,

when you're supposed to pull out of the bay, rather than pulling forward, obviously had it in reverse and just went immediately reverse and got the back of the car stuck up at an angle on the bank behind it and then the wheels

were spinning but the back wheels weren't down she couldn't get it moving again and they just both got out of the car and returned to the test centre

but neither of them said anything it was just like such a look of absolute oh yeah well that's happened on her face complete acceptance

so that was in four seconds did they carry on with the test did they carry on with the test no that carry on with the test uh no that was it that was it yeah one of my tests actually didn't even happen because i didn't know how to pop the bonnet so at the beginning when you were asked to explain the bits of the engine my mum had never told me how you open the bonnet of the car so i couldn't get at it so i tried to explain i say oh well i think the dip thing's in the middle somewhere he's like no i no, you need to show me. It's not good enough.

So that test didn't even happen because I had no idea whether... My mum was in Sainsbury's. I didn't know we were getting a hold of her. This was before mobile phones, before I had one at least. Why did they want to look under the bonnet? Why did they want to look under the bonnet? I don't know. Well, the test began.

You had to show that you understood the part of the engine. So it would be like where the dip bit is, how you replace the oil and all this sort of stuff I don't think I heard that I had no idea how to open it I tried pulling on it and all this sort of stuff it just didn't work so yeah but that's an old me

that's the old me now I'd nail it probably yeah well you know you've had your first pint exactly and you've had your first job which I think are two big ones two children you got you got two children so i think we can tick that particular coming of age big time so uh but i i'm glad that my uh the thing i had to get past was you know i may have

failed but at least it's only a driving test because in other areas of the world and throughout history coming of age ceremonies coming of age um things you obstacles are much tougher the first one i'm going to talk to you about is in a place called vanuatu which is a small island nation in the middle of the south pacific now they have a very particular coming of age ceremony there which they've been doing for centuries and And it's called Nughol, which is also known as land diving, which is where you show bravery and you sort of prove your acceptance, that you're ready for manhood. So the first question I want to ask is how are you guys with heights? How are you with heights?

Awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful. It's my – I'm not scared of spiders. Bring them on. I put a spider in my mouth I don't care I sort of don't understand why people are scared of spiders not a problem mice

not a problem in fact I would say most of the things I'm meant to be scared of not scared of them heights my daughter was on a climbing frame

yesterday in the beautiful picturesque town of Hartford and she got onto about the third step and I immediately got a stomachache. She's too high up, man. I can't go up ladders.

You spat the spider from your mouth, you ran over, and you said, what the hell are you doing? Go Ape was honestly the biggest test of my moral fibre. It was horrific. I don't mind Go Ape, but I've never jumped off the top diving board at the swimming centre. No, no, no.

I've been up there and bottled it several times. I can tell you that this certain coming of age ceremony would not be for you then, because this is jumping from a high height, but not into a pool, but head first into the ground, okay? What? So what would happen,

and what does still happen in this community is they will build 98 foot wooden towers out of uh branches and uh logs that they've kind of collected over the months before the ceremony uh and then they climb to the top and they tie bungee-like vines around their ankles and then they have to throw themselves off there and hope that the vine is the correct length and will stop them from hitting the ground basically um only natural fibers and branches are used so they literally are just getting everything from the forest they're creating their own vines and um the aim is uh the way it's described is to get as close to the ground as possible ideally brushing the earth with your head or shoulders.

Oh, my God. Right. Common trope in American standard. Yeah. Imagine being the first guy to do that. What a maniac. An absolute maniac. Absolutely.

And who was enabling him? Well, I can tell you who's enabling them from an early age because from the age of seven and eight you start from smaller towers so from the age of seven you are permitted to jump from smaller towers and then you get higher and higher and higher as you get older when it gets to the point where it's your it's your key moment to pass into adulthood it would be up to the parent would stand there with you and when you jump they throw away something from your childhood to show that you've moved on from your part that part of your life this is a big ceremony

so which i as a parent copy the gruffalo yes that's exactly what i was thinking as a parent i would use that as an opportunity to start decluttering the house something i've really wanted to get rid of for ages that toy kitchen you never Yeah, he's not going to read A Squash and A Squeeze again. Off it goes. Charlie's got this Paw Patrol fire engine which I trip over about seven times a day

and it makes more noise than an actual fire engine when you press the button on the front. That'll be going. That'll be going. That's going straight off. Do you have to be regarded

as a man? Do you have to pass into adulthood? Can you not be a sort of men behaving badly style lad who were in a constant state of arrested development could i not be martin clunes in this could i not be a south sea island martin clunes just drinking peroni drinking stella marlboro light exactly but it's also bound into one other thing the reason they do it as well

is because it's directly connected they believe with the cycle of yams and harvesting yams so yam being the root vegetable and it's to ensure that you have a good yam harvest which i think so it must be quite annoying if you're not that into yams. Yeah, if you don't love yams, this is a waste of time. Yeah, absolutely. It's like, I don't like pears. I wouldn't jump off a 98-foot tower for even food I do like. Like, I like pasta. I probably wouldn't jump off a 98-foot tower for a bowl of pasta.

However, if you get long enough spaghetti, it'd make the perfect bungee rope. But you'd be encouraging the community, surely, to start diversifying into other food stuff. That would be my first thing. Deliveroo. Yeah, exactly. Can we just not worry about yams anymore? And the other thing about this,

it's supposed to be health-bringing, that's what they say. Basically, it means a good jump will mean that you avoid diseases in the future. But people die from it, don't they? Yeah, that's very true. So a bad jump also means you avoid diseases in the future, to be fair. Good God. If your child has crumpled down to four inches tall, and you're eating a yam, are you thinking, well, it was worth it?

Or are you thinking, I must admit, I regret this? But there is another coming-of-age ceremony that I think was even harder. I think the Aztecs, basically, human sacrifice was kind of really important to the Aztecs. Sort of spilling blood meant that their gods provided them with sort of a rich harvest. It was all sort of bound up in that

and appeasing the gods, the sun gods, and them with sort of a rich harvest it was all sort of bound up in that and um appeasing the gods the sun gods and all this sort of stuff so sacrifice was very much their their go-to thing but it was also bound up with being a becoming a man becoming an adult and becoming a warrior for young aztecs as well and the way that that happened was according to tradition as a teenager in aztec society you would have to go out into battle and not only not kill someone you weren't you weren't supposed to kill someone you had to take someone captive and then bring them back to your city so you weren't allowed to kill them you had to which i think i think it feels harder to take someone captive than to kill them surely who you get who you're picking are Are you trying to pick a little old lady?

It had to be someone you were fighting. I don't think it could be, like... Yeah, it couldn't be Maureen, who's 72 or whatever. It had to be... Imagine coming back to the town with, I've got Maureen here. Yeah? Will that do? What have you... No!

Bring Maureen back! I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get back here, but she's very slow. Yeah. It had to be someone you were fighting and you would take the prisoner you bring them back to the steps of the temple and then the priests would cut the victim

open remove their heart hold it up to the sun and then toss the body down the steps that instantly that instantly skippers the idea of there being some sort of reciprocal arrangement with a person that you're trying to keep captive

you could say listen mate I've got to I've got to take someone hostage it's a rite of passage thing in my culture if I could just take you hostage for a day I'll split the money with you if you do any weird stuff as well

I'll be your guy if you be my guy and I may or may not have to rip your heart out if I was a prisoner I'd spend the entire journey back trying to convince them that adulthood really isn't all it's cracked up to be yeah it's just pills every letter is a pill

the big shop car insurance I never play anymore all it's cracked up. Yeah, it's just pills. Every letter is a pill. The big shop. Yeah, yeah, that's boring. Car insurance. I never play anymore. I just love playing. I haven't drawn anything for ages. I just love drawing. Never write stories.

Convince them. Your hope is to convince them that you run away together and just live a really chilled out life. You know your mum and dad put your school uniform on the radiator? Well, guess what? I'm the one putting it on the radiator

no one puts my uniform on the radiator doesn't even wear a uniform it's rubbish so you get brought back your heart will be ripped out your body will be chucked out

the thing and then only then would you be considered a man with the person who caught you basically

that would be the moment at the moment the body was chucked down the steps would be the point that you'd be considered a man another piece I read your national insurance number and your driver's licence At the moment the body was chucked down the steps would be the point that you'd be considered a man.

At which point you get your national insurance number and your driver's licence. You fail five times and you leave it. Great. JF446509B. Thank you very much, Tom. One thing that I read on this which did make me laugh, it said that the rituals were hotly anticipated family and friends would gather around and it really brought everyone together

what a nice family event that is gathering everyone around and you know like after the event they're gonna be your family like your mom asking like so where did you catch him where did he did he did he put up much of a fight? Which of those two do you think you're going for? Are you going for the Aztec catch someone or the jump off the 98-foot wooden pile, which do you think is the coming-of-age ceremony you'd choose? I find... I think the Aztecs would be a laugh.

Feels like a Channel 4 show, doesn't it? Like, go catch yourself and bring them back. Has that been commissioned? Should we pitch that? Oh, Dave are doing it. What about everything we've heard so far, then? What's the best? I think at least with Thomas Farr's

you know the book of parenting. So it's the book of children by Thomas Farr written in 1544. His solutions and his advice is bad and grim and disgusting and gruesome but it does ultimately come from a good place

whereas the Spartan stuff sounds horrendous and land diving sounds terrifying and I don't want to hold anyone hostage and keep them captive and have them murdered so I can get a national insurance number. Yeah, I agree. I think as horrific as it is,

at least it was coming from a place of trying to do good. I'm not saying I want hare brains rubbed onto my gums as I'm teething. Absolutely. But, you know, at least they thought it's maybe in a hundred years time, Kalpol will be discredited. And people are like, oh my God, I can't believe they were doing this. They used to put Kalpol in their mouths.

Oh, Kalpaw! I would also say, though, of course, that this island nation, the Vanuatu, the high diving comes from a point of, you know, wanting to... It's health benefits, the crops, all these things are so important. Yeah.

It all stems from... And if you survive, it must be an incredible rush. What a feeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What an adrenaline buzz but I actually think I prefer the Spartans I think the Spartans

it's fine you know okay it's a bit barbaric at least it's all managed for you do you know what I mean I feel like you might come out of that

alright whereas the Vanuatu you're getting your head caved in so it's a sort of national service aspect that you quite like the fact that you'd be

it's a structured environment it's almost out of your hands it's almost out of national service aspect that you quite like. The fact that you'd be... It's a structured environment. It's almost out of your hands, you know? Fine. And you're getting an education. Who doesn't want to be good at fighting? Yeah, being hard would be good. Yeah, that'd be a laugh. Let's chuck our answers into the ring then.

OK, I am going with Ellis. I think if I had to choose with any of those, I'm going for 1544. I'm going through that book. I'm finding a hare. I'm scooping had to choose with any of those, I'm going for 1544. I'm going through that book. I'm finding a hare. I'm scooping its brains out and rubbing it on my child's gums. That's what I'm going for. It's not ideal, but that's what I'm going with. It would be a great bond

with your, if you could survive it, with your mates in the army barracks in Sparta. But I'm not sure I was ever cut out for Spartan training from the age of seven, so I'm going to say the English, yeah. And Chris, however, thinks he's...

Thinks he's Sylvester Stallone. Exactly, yeah. And the Spartans sort of missed out by not having him. Yeah. It's weird because I'm kind of too scared for the harebrains, but I'm more up It's weird because I'm kind of too scared for the hair brains, but I'm more up for the fighting. Yeah.

Have you ever had a fight in your life? Scout's Christmas Party, 1994, punched my best mate on the nose. Did you? And how did that go? So I'm undefeated. And there we go. Thank you very much for downloading this week's episode of Oh, Water Time. And it's that time again, I'm afraid, where I'm going to ask you for your ratings and your reviews.

Historically, I have always been very bad at asking for this kind of thing. It always feels slightly uncouth asking for your kind words, your five-star ratings, et cetera, but it does help people find the podcast. And also, I've overstretched myself on the mortgage, so I kind of need this to work out. I'm slightly uncomfortable. It's okay to cut the accent, so...

Ellis, can I tell you something very briefly? We genuinely received an email this week, which I didn't read out, from a man called Paul Whiffin, which simply said, Accent, please get Ellis to do his Cockney accent more. It's amazing. That's true. Look, from a guy called Paul,

you've just made Paul's day. That's amazing. But to surmise, leave us a five-star review, write nice things things and we'll see you next week see you guys bye