Ologies with Alie Ward - Coffeeology (YEP, COFFEE) with Peter Giuliano

Episode Date: September 3, 2024

When did coffee get into our mouths? Who’s right when it comes to the best coffee? What’s the most ethical way to enjoy it? What about the cats that eat the beans? How will climate change affect your morning coffee? Peter Giuliano is the executive director of the Coffee Science Foundation explains folk stories behind coffee, what makes beans taste the way they do, why cold brew and nitro feel like rocket fuel, shade-grown coffee, roasting chemistry, flimflam, atmospheric pressure, dead espresso, and the best way to brew it, in his opinion. Also: why it tastes better outside – for some of us. Follow Peter Giuliano on Instagram and LinkedInA donation went to the Coffee Science Foundation, an arm of the Specialty Coffee AssociationMore episode sources and linksSmologies (short, classroom-safe) episodesOther episodes you may enjoy: Gustology (TASTE), Disgustology (REPULSION TO GROSS STUFF), Scatology (POOP), Dendrology (TREES), Carobology (NOT-CHOCOLATE TREES), Critical Ecology (SOCIAL SYSTEMS + ENVIRONMENT), Agnotology (IGNORANCE), Pomology (APPLES), Lupinology (WOLVES)Sponsors of OlogiesTranscripts and bleeped episodesBecome a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a monthOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, hoodies, totes!Follow @Ologies on Instagram and XFollow @AlieWard on Instagram and XEditing by Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio Productions and Jacob ChaffeeManaging Director: Susan HaleScheduling Producer: Noel DilworthTranscripts by Aveline Malek Website by Kelly R. DwyerTheme song by Nick Thorburn

Oh hey, it's your brother's college roommate who does a weirdly good Marilyn Monroe impression, Allie Ward. And honestly, this episode may be one of our most divisive. I don't think we've ever covered a topic where every single listener considers themselves an expert in the matter. But here we are. We're ready to just submerse ourselves, dunk into the darkness of coffee, which is, according to a 2024 report, the second most popular beverage in my country,

eclipsed only by water. One is essential for survival. The other is essential for survival. Now, depending on whom's you ask. Now, we asked possibly the best expert on the matter. We looked high and low. This is the head of the research department at a trade association for coffee farmers, roasters, and baristas all over the world. They live, breathe, eat, and drink coffee. And also, bonus, they're not a dick about it. So slam dunk. So we're going to get to that in a moment. But first, let's say a big thanks to patrons at patreon.com slash allogies for submitting

such great questions for this episode. You too can join for as low as a dollar a month. And we also have a tier to leave audio messages, which we may play on the show. So thank you also to everyone out there in Ologies Merch. I see all your tagged photos that we repost on Instagram. And OlogiesMerch.com has all your t-shirt and tote needs. Also, thanks to everyone who leaves reviews for me to read, which I do weekly and I pull a new one. And in this case, from Bev's topical name, who wrote, come for the weird animals, stay for the personal growth. And they wrote, I was initially drawn to ologies for the deep dives on cool animals,

but have been surprised and delighted by episodes that have helped me learn about myself. So let's learn about us. Let's learn about what we drink. Let's get into coffee ology. Okay, so the name, let's get this out of the way. Like fun ology, this is a name that frankly displeases me because it sounds like something that would be printed on a ceramic jar on a clearance shelf at HomeGoods. But so many people use it, we must respect linguistic precedents, and we're going to talk about the word origins in a bit. But this guest has baristaed, has owned a specialty coffee shop, and is now exactly the person we need to talk about the folk stories behind coffee, the origins, roasting chemistry, brewing methods, caffeine content,

flim flam, atmospheric pressure, cold brews, dead espresso, and the best way to brew it. Why you like some more than others, non-judgment, super tasting, ethical farming, and so much more with an expert in both Java and Joe. Professional coffeeologist, Peter Giuliano, he, him, and I'm the chief research officer for the Specially Coffee Association and the executive director of the Coffee Science Foundation. Coffee and science. You're right in the middle. I live coffee science.

And it's sort of like applied science to this product that is so familiar to us and so beloved by so many people. One thing I like to say is making coffee is like a chemistry experiment people do in their kitchen every morning. And it's true. I mean, they're doing this thing. They're applying hot water to this powder, which somehow creates this extraction that brings joy. And there's chemistry in that, there's folklore in that, there's history in that, there's physics in that. So anyway, that's the way I like to think about it, it's sort of applied science. It's interesting because some people approach a morning cup of coffee by grams and scales, and they know exactly what kind of size they've got. And

then some people are like, like me, if I'm going on a road trip, I'll hit 7-Eleven. I'll see whatever kind of weird stuff they got in there. Blueberry coffee, six in the morning. Why not? I'm kind of the whole scope, which is horrifying to some people. But like, I'll fuck with a truck stop coffee. My husband and my brother-in-law, however, are the measuring type. Right. In consumer research for coffee, we've got shorthand for those two kinds of people. Do you? Yeah.

Yeah, the shorthand is we call them either super specialty or specialty adopters. Okay. And I'll explain those. Well, first of all, specialty coffee is our term for coffee that is better for some reason. So it has attributes to it that make it more valuable or more desirable to people. It tastes better. It comes from a certain place that they care about. It's the opposite of commodity coffee. Okay.

So coffee can qualify for being specialty in a bunch of different ways. Anyway, that's why I work for the Specialty Coffee Association. That's the good stuff. But when we started looking at the behavior of specialty coffee consumers, we see these two groups emerge. One, we call it the super specialty people, and these are the perfectionists. These are people who use a scale, you know, care a lot about the origin of their coffee or the particulars about how dark it's roasted and really want to get into the technicalities of coffee.

That's one kind of consumer. Then there's another kind of consumer and we call them adopters. For them, coffee is an experience and it's more about self-care and it's about enjoyment. So an adopter is more likely to, you know, go and get a funny drink with ingredients in it, you know? Yeah. That's me. Is more likely to be open to both a truck stop coffee and a high-end coffee shop in a city, whereas a super has to be dialed in. That's their whole thing.

So these two groups coexist in an interesting way. I would say I'm more of an adopter myself. I'm like you, I'm broadly open to lots of different coffee experiences. But at the same time, I know that there is some benefit to getting technical, you know. Yeah. Once you start measuring stuff, it can improve things a lot. So according to a study commissioned by the Specialty Coffee Association by an independent research group in 2016, both trashy or not snobby open-minded adopters like me and supers

like my brother-in-law, Chris, who has good taste, prefer to drink coffee in the morning, which is no surprise. But in the study of 250 participants, the researchers noted that the majority of supers buy whole bean coffee and prefer to grind their own fresh, while adopters go for the ground coffee. And I would like to note that before living with my husband, who grinds his fresh, I drink instant coffee. So people can change. Although like many other adopters, I tend to drink my coffee kind of like an infant would, adding a brazen amount of milk or cream,

sometimes marshmallows if I'm feeling sassy. Now, supers are more likely to use plant milk and natural sweeteners if anything at all. They also probably pay their car registration on time and understand what a Roth IRA is, or if it's pronounced Ira. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. What was your first cup of coffee? Do you remember?

I don't remember my first cup of coffee in my life. My grandfather was, like, a legendary coffee drinker. Really? I come from a big Sicilian-American family, and he was known in the family as being the guy who loves coffee. He would start a pot in the morning, drink it with breakfast, start another pot, and at lunchtime he would switch to iced coffee and then he would drink coffee the rest of

the day. I remember one of my favorite memories with him is he would carry a thermos of coffee around with him and we would stop at a park bench when you know, when we were hanging out and he would drink coffee and he would share it with me, I'm sure. So I'm quite sure that that was the context. It was my grandparents giving me coffee milk. Coffee milk. My first cup of coffee, I still remember, was a bottled Maxwell House affair that came on the market in high school right as my skills in procrastination

were truly developing. It was called Capio. Capio Mocha, a splash of chocolate flavor. Capio cinnamon, an unexpected twist. I consumed one around 10 p.m. on a weeknight before a midterm paper was due. And I believe it ignited my lifelong love of what are essentially melted milkshakes for nervous adults. The other story I like to tell about the first cup of coffee is the first cup of coffee that really made an impact on me. So I grew up in Southern California and I was kind of a weird kid. Like I was one of those kids that didn't fit in.

My favorite. And when you're a weird kid in the beach town I grew up in and near San Diego, you spent time at a coffee shop. That's where you went. That's where you were accepted sort of. Same, same, same, same, same. Totally, you get it. So through a strange coincidence,

I wound up getting hired at this coffee shop. One day somebody didn't show up and they needed somebody and I was hanging around all the time. And the assistant manager threw me an apron said, can you work a shift right now? And I was 18 years old. I started working that day and I've never worked another job since I've always worked in coffee ever since. But about three months after I started, I was standing at the counter, you know, at the espresso bar and a coworker came up to me and with a cup of coffee and she said, taste this. And she handed it to me and I remember everything about how that

tasted. Yeah. 18 years, I can remember where I was standing. I can remember the way my shoes felt on my feet at that moment. It's one of those moments where everything sort of becomes clear. This coffee tasted like chocolate-covered cherries that you get at the candy store, the chocolate. It was so good. I said, what is this? It helped because I was fond of this coworker. I mean, she was somebody I liked and admired. And she said, it's estate Java. Tell me more.

And I'm like, what is a state Java? What does that mean? You know, and that's what started me and my journey right there, that sort of mystery of the origin of where it was and the impact of the flavor. So that was a profound moment for me. I still think about it all the time. And it was, what, 35 years ago? More on estate Java in a bit, because it's a bonker story. Does that coworker know that you've made a life out of it? No, she doesn't know.

She doesn't know. You have to find her. I do, I know I do need to find her and thank her for that, you know, because it really was a turning point. You have to send her this episode. Yeah, maybe. You know, I feel like one of the reasons why I can drink whatever is mostly just ignorance.

I've been drinking green tea for a long time and do not give me a bag of bad green tea. It will ruin my day. Don't give me a blueberry green tea. Don't give me a pomegran bad green tea, it will ruin my day. Don't give me a blueberry green tea, don't give me a pomegranate green tea. I have preferences and that's just because I'm familiar with it. And I feel like I have a little bit of

an area of my life of just ignorance with coffee where I don't quite know what to look for when I'm tasting it. Can you describe some of the qualities that people who really know their coffee are looking for and are those from different areas of the world? Are those from Ethiopia? Are they Colombian? Are they Java?

Are they Sumatran? Yeah, no, that's a great question. So first of all, a little bit of background here. Coffee is interesting because it's not something that we drink for calories or anything. People usually become attracted to it first because of the caffeine. We hear this story all the time, like, you know, I started drinking coffee when I was in college and I stayed up late. Yeah. Introducing Caffeo.

But then there's lots of ways people can get caffeine. They generally stick with coffee because they love the flavor. So then what is the flavor about? So coffee is interesting because by itself, it's the seed of a fruit. It looks like a cherry, grows as a seed of a fruit, and it's processed and dried. Then it becomes a thing called green coffee, which is just this kind of pale green looking seed. And that seed does not taste or smell like anything. It smells like wood. It does not resemble the

smell or taste of coffee at that stage. It has to be roasted. But then when it roasts this coffee flavor appears. And this coffee flavor is mostly the product of Maillard reactions, you know, you know about my reactions. Yeah. So when there are sugars and proteins and heat all at the same place, you get these complex chemical reactions that create all sorts of interesting flavors. And the heat generally needs to reach 280 to 330 Fahrenheit or 140 to 165 Celsius for those amino acids

and carbon and oxygen groups in the sugar to create polymers called melanoidins that make baked goods and roasted foods so drooly to our brains. And also a side note, the man who discovered this in 1912, a French chemist by the name of Louis-Camille Maillard, was working on pee at the time. He was known for his kidney research. And those 1,000 or so antioxidants called polyphenols that make coffee smell and taste how it does, those come out in your pee, in case you ever have coffee pee.

But before it gets to that Maillard-related excretory business, yes, there is the Maillard reaction that made you wanna drink it in the first place, because the roasting creates the tastes and the smells. Sweet aromas. Now we're getting into the flavors that coffee lovers look for, which is sweetness, bitterness, acidity or sourness, a little bit of pleasant sourness that comes from this thing that it's a fruit.

And then all these aromatics, aromatics like vanilla or butter or chocolate. A lot of people, I say their ideal coffee flavor is sort of similar to chocolate chip cookies. You know how chocolate chip cookies are buttery and sweet smelling and chocolatey smelling? Yeah. Those same things are components of coffee flavor too.

Oh, okay. Sweetness, chocolateiness, nuttiness often. So that's the core coffee flavor. Then coffee lovers like to stack on that other elements like extra roasted flavors, like those extra dark roasted flavors, bitterness, bittersweet kind of characters. Other people, especially tea lovers like yourselves,

like lighter roasted coffees that don't have those chocolatey nutty notes, they've got floral and fruity notes, so they can smell like jasmine or like lemon. You mentioned Ethiopia. That's my favorite kind of coffee, is coffees from Ethiopia that are floral. They smell like tea, honestly, or like citrus. So because coffee flavors can be so diverse, you have people loving different kinds of flavors

in coffee all the time. You mentioned Ethiopia has more floral flavors. Is that the soil? Is that the rainfall, the shade? Well, yes, to all those things. You asked about the origin of coffee and it is Ethiopia. Southwestern Ethiopia is where coffee grows wild and it still grows wild today.

And it evolved there a couple hundred thousand years ago. And this story is sort of lost to time. People started to interact with it, consume it, whatever. There's some myths about that. But certainly people in southeastern Ethiopia started to consume it in some ways, but they didn't consume it by roasting it and brewing it like we did. They were eating it like a fruit or maybe making a tea out of its leaves. The roasting and brewing process happened in Yemen right across the Red Sea from Ethiopia. So through various cultural exchanges, coffee made its way from southeastern Ethiopia up to the northeast across the Red Sea to Yemen. And that's where coffee became the coffee that we know of it today. We call coffee, its botanical term is Kaffir Arabica.

And the Arabica comes from the part that that, at that time Yemen was considered part of Arabia. News to me, there is not one species of coffee. I just figured, like domestic dogs or apples, we were talking a single genus and species, but a bunch of breeds or varieties. But no, in the genus coffee, there are over 125 species. However, most of what you've enjoyed is probably one of a few species. There's coffee arabica and coffee canaphora, although canaphora is usually just called robusta because it's a little more bitter

and it has a higher caffeine content. But arabica, which is grown at higher elevations, tends to taste more floral and fruity, while robusta, which is grown at lower altitudes, is more on the bitter and strong and whiskey and nutty side. Some saying that it even tastes like scorched rubber, which I'm gonna admit, as a person who loves a tire store, I'm actually into. But in blends, arabica is the dominant bean,

making up about three quarters of the blend, and the rest might be robusta. Now, so-called commodity coffee, like Folgers or Maxwell House, what you might buy at the grocery store is usually a mix of robusta and arabica. might be Robusta. Now, so-called commodity coffee, like Folgers or Maxwell House, what you might buy at the grocery store is usually a mix of Robusta and Arabica. Now, this is weird.

In an Italian cafe, like in actual Italy, your fancy espresso may have Robusta beans too, because Robusta beans have a silkier mouthfeel and can give a creamier head on a shot of espresso. Now, Vietnamese coffee is mostly Robusta, which is why it packs kind of a gut punch in both flavor and caffeine. But many coffee establishments in the States at least

offer single origin Arabica. They don't even mess with Robusta. Now, within those two types, of course, there are so many varietals. Now, within those two types, of course, there are so many varietals. Now, there's also this species of coffee called coffee labirica or baraco, and it's native to Western Africa, and it was popularized in the Philippines.

And that shrub produces larger, more almond or teardrop-shaped beans, and it may be hardier amid climbing global temperatures. So keep an eye on it. Liberica coffee itself, I've read as described, is sweet and nutty, even grassy, and it's used in Southeast Asia a lot. So to recap, Arabica is what is most commonly brewed,

even in blends. Specialty coffee shops, you know, like the small chains or the local cafes where everyone who works there is hot and has maybe a septum piercing, stick and pokes, and makes your pour over coffee while you watch. Those places tend to use single origin Arabica beans because they have lighter and fruitier notes

and more complexity in their flavors. Now, Robusta, considered more of a buster bean, and it's used in cheaper blends, or maybe in European cafes for texture. And Liberica is this typically cheaper, often scoffed upon bean that is said to have lighter taste almost like jackfruit and it might become more popular as our planet rolls to a boil. Now in terms of timing, there were waves of coffee trends, there are first, second and third and your first wave coffee evokes a simpler time With truck stop and diner coffee being the norm,

everyone drank the same stuff. Now second wave represents mid-tier coffee chains like Starbucks and Pete's or 90s coffee shops that had those big oversized couches that smelled like farts and the menu features a lot of flavors, maybe a lot of syrups. And now specialty coffee shops are sometimes called third wave with higher quality, more expensive drinks,

maybe a more precious brewing experience, and a real emphasis on the bean origins and the tasting profiles. But let's go back in time to the beginning, back to Yemen when it was considered part of Arabia, and some folks were taking fruit pits and toasting them and getting jacked on caffeine. And they were the first ones to grind it,

decoct it with hot water, and drink it like we do today. Did they roast it as well? They roasted it. They roasted it in a pan. You can find all these old pictures of people in Yemen roasting it in a pan over coals or a flame, then grinding it with a mortar and pestle, and then steeping it in water to drink it. People think that happened about 1100 AD.

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So more recent than people might think. It's not super ancient in that way. Now, it could have been consumed in Ethiopia for a lot longer than that. We just don't have historical records on that. But coffee started to break out of Ethiopia and get to the rest of the world around 1100. So only about a thousand years ago. So ancient Romans, no one was designing aqueducts over a morning or a midnight coffee. They didn't even have tea, just wine, just wine all day. And coffee really began to develop and make a mark historically around the time Henry

V was already doing his thing. Before that, people just raw-dogged it for ages. No coffee, no antibiotics. Was there toilet paper? No. That's another episode entirely. And then via the Ottoman Empire, spread all throughout, let's say, Arabia, the Eastern Mediterranean, partially because coffee wasn't alcohol. In Muslim countries, where there's a prohibition of alcohol, coffee was a good alternative. And in fact, some people theorize that the word, our word coffee comes from an old Arabic word meaning wine. Really? Mm-hmm. And some people, in fact, still call it the wine of Arabia. comes from an old Arabic word meaning wine.

Really? Mm-hmm. And some people in fact still call it the wine of Arabia. I've never heard that. Yeah, it became the core drink among non-alcohol drinkers and was very, very associated with Islam and in fact, Muslim religious practice because you can consume coffee

and it keeps you up for your prayers. Really? And then when did it come to South America and then North America? Oh that's an interesting story. Yeah, let me hear. Okay, so it became popular in Yemen and there was a port in Yemen and it was a port along the sort of spice trade routes, right? So by this time there was trade with the Mediterranean and Europe that would go down through the Red Sea, out into the Indian Ocean and all the way to the East Indies, the Spice Islands,

where they would pick up cloves and nutmeg and things, bring them back to Europe. And as they went, they passed by Yemen. So Yemen had coffee. So coffee started being in these trade routes, going to Europe. And in Europe, they thought of it as sort of a spice at the time, you know, just as as cloves and nutmeg were cool spices, very flavorful, exotic to the European palate. Same with coffee, and coffee began to be interesting. And then consumption was increasing in the Ottoman Empire in Europe.

Okay, just a side note. The Ottoman Empire, also called the Turkish Empire, was hot shit from about the mid 1400s to the late 1700s. And in 1602, what would become a giant multinational corporation? The Dutch East India Company, sometimes abbreviated for the Dutch VOC. So that's in 1602. And during its near 200 year reign on commerce, it was granted the authority to start wars, to make treaties, to mint its own currency, and even take prisoners and execute them if it was feeling brutal. But the company nabbed some coffee plants and in 1696 planted them in Jakarta. Now by the early 1800s global colonialism

in full swing, the world's superpowers were duking it out in the Napoleonic Wars. And one battleground was a series of islands in eastern Indonesia. So pretty soon then the Dutch went and decided that they were going to take over the Spice Islands. Okay. And they fought a war with the English over it. And they're like, we're going to control spices now. And they successfully did that. But just as they did, the bottom started to fall out of the spice market.

Really? It's spices started to get less popular. And business has been so bad. And so they were like, what do we do now? And they thought coffee. So what they did was they actually sent spies to Yemen to steal coffee seeds and bring them to the East Indies and plant them. And they planted them on the island of Java. No. Just a side note, Java is an island located northwest of Australia with Bali to its east and Sumatra above it. And the

capital of Java is Jakarta. Also, the name Java either comes from a word for distant or from the name of another indigenous plant that had nothing to do with coffee. If I were that plant, I would be pissed because the coffee plant is not even native to Java. At another time, there was a legendary figure called Baba Boudin, who was a Muslim from India who made his pilgrimage to Mecca, also thought coffee. And he famously smuggled seven seeds below his belt and brought them to India.

So in both cases, sort of surreptitiously, coffee was stolen from Yemen and planted in India and what we now call Indonesia on the island of Java. No. So that's why we call coffee Java. That makes sense. The Dutch, like, were really good at exploiting the local population to build these coffee estates. And build these coffee estates. And suddenly the island of Java was the biggest producer of coffee in the world. Congratulations. And then they took the title from Yemen.

And the port in Yemen that I keep referring to is called the port of Mocha. So that's another word that we associate with coffee, right? So you've heard of Mocha Java? Yeah, yeah. That's the story. Mocha is this port in Yemen, Java is this island in Indonesia.

And apparently people would call coffee a portmanteau of Java Mocha, Jamocha, which legend has it has just been shortened to a cup of Joe. We did it, Joe. Although Yemen unfortunately has been racked by war for decades at this point, but you can still get some really amazing old school style coffees from Yemen.

It's almost gone. It's a tradition that's almost gone. And those estates that I told you about in Java still exist. And in fact, that coffee that I told you about, my first like, formational cup of coffee, that was from one of those estates in Java called Jampit in East Java. And I got to visit there later in my career, but that's another story.

So now here's another interesting story. One of the other places that coffee was planted was in Ceylon, which we now call Sri Lanka. And there, they noticed that the coffee leaves were turning brown. And then when a coffee tree's leaves would get this brown dust on it, the tree would die within a year. So they identified the problem and it was a disease. We now call it coffee leaf rust. It's a fungal disease that affects coffee. And it wiped out coffee in Sri Lanka within a few years. Well, this sucks.

Then it appeared in Java. Oh, no. In the middle of the 19th century, it appeared in Java. And they're like, oh, no. And it basically wiped out the coffee industry in Java. However. More colonists, this time French ones, brought a single seedling of coffee to the island of Martinique in the Caribbean.

And that was the coffee that started Latin American coffee. Oh. And so by the time that coffee sort of collapsed in Java, it was just coming up in Latin America. And that's why Latin America, you know, Brazil and Colombia are the biggest coffee producers in the world today. And it's because they were kind of at the right place at the right time when coffee sort of collapsed in Southeast Asia. And do they still retain those flavors because of just varietals or is it the environment? Yes, well both. So one interesting thing about that story I told you is remember I told you

coffee was getting stolen and hidden in places. So every time that happened, that's sort of a genetic bottleneck because they're only bringing a few seedlings from place to place. And so the varieties are very idiosyncratic to where these places are because they were descended from only a few seedlings, except in one place, and that place is Ethiopia, which still has all of its natural genetic diversity in it. So Ethiopia is this country, its coffee has a huge amount of genetic diversity. Anywhere outside of Ethiopia, the genetic diversity is much less. However, there are varieties that are out there and they, just as your intuition tells

you, they do determine coffee flavor where they're grown, in addition to microclimates. So coffee is very sensitive to climate, and it tends to express itself in different ways, depending on what the climate is. Can you give me a quick rundown of, like, you're gonna get these notes from this place? Like, if you are new to coffee, or if you want to appreciate it in more than a blueberry

truck stop way, what should you look for? Because my husband loves coffee and I want to appreciate what he appreciates and I just don't really know what to look for. I mean I'm coming at this like the, you know, ask smart people not smart questions. Yeah, yeah. You've asked a question that I love to get. This is a great thing, and I'm gonna try to do it in the most concise way

because as you might imagine, there's like an infinity of this. Yeah. But I'm gonna try to break it down for you as much as I can. There's two things. One is geography and the other is process. So like there's red wine and white wine, okay?

Those are different processes, right? Red wine, they ferment it with the skins and stuff and it gives it all that color, but it also changes the flavor, whereas white wine, they ferment the juice and they're two big different flavor categories and different grapes and stuff too. In coffee, we've got a division like that

and it's washed coffee versus unwashed or natural coffee. And the difference there is whether they leave the skin on when it's drying. Oh. So if you take the skin off and you've kind of washed the fruit off the seed and then you dry it, it's got a much cleaner, more transparent flavor. It tastes more like just coffee.

Okay. If you dry it within its fruit, if you just pluck it from the tree and dry it in the sun, then it sort of ferments inside that fruit and it creates these really intense fruity flavors. And oftentimes, you've mentioned blueberry a couple times, oftentimes that coffee can taste like blueberries. Oh, wow, okay.

But it's not blueberries, it's the fruit of the coffee itself. So that's a big difference. If you don't like that fruity fermented flavor, you're not going to like those natural coffees. Some people love that. Some people, you'll give them one of these things and it smells like strawberries or like blueberries and they're like, yes, this is my coffee.

Other people are like, no, no, no, what I want is the clean coffee like flavors of a washed coffee. So that's the first big division. So washed versus unwashed is the process. And one removes the fruit or cherry, which is not actually a cherry, but whatever. The beans, not really beans either, but washed coffee removes the cherry before drying. And the skin of the fruit, if you're like, what do they do with that? It can be used as fertilizer or dried and brewed

like a more mildly caffeinated kind of fruit-like tea called kashir in Ethiopia, or it's called Kaskara, which means husk in Spanish. But what about the raw materials? Who grows, what, where, why, how? Then there's some geographical divisions. They produce both natural and washed coffees in Ethiopia, and they tend to be either very fruity

for the natural ones, or floral and fruity with the washed ones. Got it. Okay. Same with Kenyan coffee. Kenyan coffee can be bright, a lot of acid, a lot of fruit notes. Latin American coffees tend to be washed and they tend to be coffee coffees. Sweet aromatics like vanilla and nuts. Some fruit sometimes, but not as pronounced as African coffees. So Ethiopian coffees, you may taste sweeter, fruitier notes. And in South America or Latin American coffees, which tend to have the fruit stripped off before they dry,

they may have more of that chocolate chip cookie vibe. And now I'm realizing from this episode, I don't really taste coffee when I drink it. I taste milk sugar. So perhaps a black coffee is just going to be my next order, so I actually taste what I'm tasting. Now, those are some flavor notes, but... Coffee's from Southeast Asia, like Indonesia, still exist.

And they tend to have really deep, rich body, meaning the texture in your mouth. You know that sometimes when you drink coffee and you still have that, even after you're done, you still kind of feel the coffee inside your mouth and you're still tasting it like you're driving to work and you're still tasting it half an hour later? Yeah, like a silkiness kind of.

Yeah, exactly. Indonesian coffees have that. We call that heavy body. Classically, coffees from Sumatra and Java have that property. So when I'm talking to somebody like your husband about what kind of coffee they like, I start to ask them questions.

A lot of times it's like about floral and fruity, how they feel about that, how they feel about chocolate, whether they like dark roasted, then there's roasting of course, like dark roasted versus light roasted. And you can zero in on people's preferences pretty quickly and pretty cleanly. I understand that there's a big flim flam when it comes to blonde coffees versus like a dark French roast where people think because it is deep and dark and bold flavor with a French roast, oily beans, you've got more caffeine. It's really the opposite. Yeah, it is technically opposite except the difference is very very minor. Oh, okay. The caffeine really isn't that different. What really changes the caffeine is how much coffee you decide to use

to make your cup of coffee, you know? Oh, yeah, I guess that's a good point. Yeah. I mean, people sometimes talk about, well, it's more roasted or less roasted, that affects the caffeine. But then they're using radically different amounts of coffee when they're brewing it, you know, and that's what's really affecting it. So with a very deeply roasted coffee, people may use fewer beans because there's so much

flavor, but with a lighter roast, they're going heavier on the grams of grounds. Now, are you a third wave coffee person and you're cringing at the mention of French roast? Let's talk about it. Let's unpack it. I understand coffee connoisseurs not as big a fan of the oily, dark French. Like I know my husband and his friends, if they see a dark bean, they're like, it's trash. I have other friends that are like French roast only.

A matter of preference, but in this coffee science world, what is correct? Well. You can offend people, it's fine. So from a science perspective, and I'll tell you this personally, science tries to be non-normative. People like what they like and let them like it. And that's my own opinion too. As I've told you, I've worked in coffee a long time.

When I was starting in coffee, the sort of coffee snob attitude was exactly the opposite of what it is now. Really? Yeah. In those days, the darker the roast, the better. People had a sort of a gourmet ideology about that. Only bad companies roast light. Dark roasting is the way to go.

That's what all the cold kids are doing nowadays. And then just over time, because culinary trends change, the ideology totally shifted. And then it went to where the coffee snobs were like, no, no, no. We don't like dark roast anymore. We like light roast, you know? People on both sides will explain why they're right and everybody else is wrong.

But from a research perspective, it's just that people like different things, you know. To me, that's the glory of actually food science because food science is dedicated to understanding why people like different things and understanding how they do. And of course they do because that's why we have menus in restaurants, you know. If everyone liked the same thing, there would be no point to having a menu in a restaurant. People like different things by nature. And to me, that's the real answer. There are good reasons, I think, to like dark roasted coffees, just like there are good

reasons to like Cajun blackened catfish. A burnt marshmallow exactly exactly that's a fantastic example or you know i mean there's a similar controversy in wine between natural wines and i guess the traditional style or something the funky flavors and wine or like beer you know there's controversies on how happypy you want beer to be. Anyway, from my perspective, it's more about understanding what motivates people. Coffee purists, you know, like a coffee buyer, like somebody whose job it is to like go out and seek delicious coffee, they'll tend to like light roasted coffees because it's sort of easier to taste the regional differences when it's more lightly roasted. Well, question, maybe you get this, maybe you don't.

What's the best cure for coffee breath? Oh, what a good question. I have never, you mean coffee breath that other people smell or persistent coffee taste in your own mouth? I would say either or both. If you've just had a really strong coffee and then let's say you've got to get a dental exam or you're going to kiss someone who does not drink coffee. Is there anything that works well for it?

Because some people can drink coffee and not have coffee. Just water. Just water. Just hydrate. Yeah. I mean, that's not something I know. I've never ever. You're the first person ever to ask me that question.

And I'm sympathetic to it. I went to the dentist last week and I had that thought, like, am I gonna turn them off? By now they know your job. Should I not have that second cup of coffee? Okay, this is huge. So huge, huge. So apparently what causes bad breath

are volatile organic compounds like hydrogen sulfide, which smells like rotten eggs, methyl mercaptan, which smells like rotten cabbage, and dimethyl sulfide, which smells like decaying fish or propane, according to people who have had to do this professionally. And these are produced by bacteria. And because coffee contains caffeine,

around 100 to 150 milligrams per cup for brewed and about 75 milligrams per shot of espresso, it can dehydrate you and it can lead to a drier mouth, which means that the decreased saliva is not washing away trapped food particles or the bacteria that are farting gases as they munch on your mouth debris. So it's the decrease in saliva that's a major culprit. And black coffee drinkers,

perhaps supers among us, sit back, feel superior because guess what bacteria love? They love the proteins and sugar in cream and sweeteners. So that is really what's doing us in, adopters. It's not the coffee necessarily, folks. So let me straighten my lapels. And like a defense attorney, on behalf of coffee, I will present evidence in the form of a 2021 paper titled, Efficacy of Arabic Coffee and Black Tea in Reducing Helitosis, a randomized double-blind controlled crossover clinical trial, which measured volunteers' baseline breath with a portable oral spectrometer—thank God it was a machine—and gave them a solution that would cause malodorous bacteria to proliferate, according to the study. Then they had the volunteers swish with water, mouthwash, black tea, or black arabica coffee. And then they measured their breath again with the gadget.

Now the mouthwash helped, the water somehow did nothing. The green tea helped, but a champion for decreasing those sulfurous compounds was yes, the plain black coffee. So long story, try drinking it straight up and also have plenty of water. And don't worry as much about the plain coffee. Also, clean your mouth, brush your tongue,

and your life will improve. So will other people's around you. Now, if you're still worried that your breath is dissolving the ozone layer, you should know via the 2023 paper titled Succinctly Halitosis, that there are two types of bad breath. You ready for this?

One is genuine, in which up to 85% of the cases have something to do with what mossy abominations are growing in your mouth. And then the second more insidious type of halitosis called delusional or pseudo halitosis, in which a patient may insist they have stinky breath, but others are like, you're good, man. So when in doubt, ask a loved one. And when still in doubt, pay a doctor to tell you the truth, or I guess get one of those gadgets. But as long as we are hanging out in your orifices,

let's go a little deeper. Let's go much deeper. To a question I just, I had a gut feeling I had to ask. Do people ask you what is the best coffee to get you to the bathroom in the morning? Because I know that a lot of people don't like to talk about, or maybe they do, if they are my husband, talk about the coffee

just being go time. That is so true. I mean, people talk to me about that all the time. What is it in coffee? There's no talk to me about that all the time. What is it in coffee? There's no research I know about that predicts that. And same thing, this isn't so common anymore, but back when I was starting in coffee, it was a cigarette and a coffee.

Oh, really? People wanted a cigarette and a coffee, and then going to the bathroom was their thing. That was the ritual. Yeah. Okay. Well, I know almost zero actual habitual smokers because I live in LA and people are afraid of wrinkles unless it's outside a bar at closing when apparently no one is worried about anything.

I'm often surrounded instead by vapors. And yes, indeed, vaping nicotine products will also give you VIP expedited access to a morning poop. And nicotine is a stimulant, right? It tells your intestines, let's get hype, butthole. And smoking a cigarette delivers about one milligram of nicotine. And a 40 milligram vaping cartridge is equivalent to about two packs of cigarettes. Now if you're wondering about those nicotine pouches or snus that everyone lately has been

like talking between their lips and their gums, like Zin, which side note is owned by Philip Morris, a lower dose pouch is about one cigarette's worth of nicotine, and a regular dose is about three cigarettes worth of nicotine. And for more on smoking and how tobacco companies do not care if you die, you can listen to the Agnitology episode on willful ignorance by Stanford professor Dr. Robert Proctor. But yes, if you find that these products do affect your bowels, please know that these are called Nick shits. Or if you're using actual chewing tobacco, then they are dipshits, I'm told. I have a friend that insists stumped down every time.

She's got to... Really? She's feeling like her... Feel a little back down. It's like stumped down. And she goes there. Yeah, sure. She gets it. She gets a cold brew bottle.

You know who you are. Yeah, well, okay, so... I think that what's happening there is that's pretty strong coffee, meaning the ratio of coffee to water is such that she's getting a little bit more coffee than normal. I think that's the reason. That might be it. Yeah. And I have so many questions from listeners.

Can I lob some at you? Oh, sure. Amazing. Because I figure I have all these questions in my mind too, but I might as well ask them from them. Okay. But before we take the coffee break for sponsors and partners of the show, we will donate to a charity of Peter's choice.

And this week he asked that it go to Irvine, California based Coffee Science Foundation, a support organization and the research arm of the Specialty Coffee Association. And the Coffee Science Foundation aims to understand coffee and secure its future through research, knowledge building, and outreach. So a donation will go toward further research, and that was made possible by Allogy sponsors. Okay, we're back. Let's grind through your questions. So a totally understandable and nagging moral question was on the minds of patrons Tia Danilovic,

Chandler Wutherington Kathleen Carlson Taylor Clinton back Allie and Julian Eric Anderson and will who asked what labels like free trade are actually meaningful when it comes to coffee now Side note because the top coffees are grown at elevation Harvesting machines are typically not employed, but people are. And patron Gwen Kelly said, I love my coffee, but I cringe a little every time I think about all the people who have to stand all day next to a bush or a tree picking it one bean at a time, which is how they do that. And another side note, each cup of coffee that you drink has about 55 beans worth. Now patron Maya said, oh boy, oh boy, I love, love, love coffee and I'm sad because it's evil.

So I try to buy from roasters that deal directly with farmers. Biggest question, Maya writes, is there ethical coffee and how do you find it? Let's talk sustainability and ethics. Feline Earl of Gramelkin, David the Altruistic, Misanthrope, Lena Brodsky, Don W., Noah Pastana, Maureen Ford, Violetta, David Barker, Lena Brodsky, Nicolette.

A lot of people wanted to know, in Char Harrison's words, how can we reduce the exploitation of bean growers and harvesters? Phelan wanted to know, is there any actual ethical way of consuming and buying coffee? What are the dynamics of the industry? What's the best way to consume it or what to look for? Yeah, that's a great question.

So first of all, as somebody who works in the coffee industry, this is something that the coffee industry talks to itself about all the time. Because we're an industry that's based on pleasure and enjoyment of the world, and nobody likes the idea of exploitation in this system. Even the bigger companies are really actively trying to be engaged with this issue. And so what you'll find is that companies will often be engaged and will tell you about what they're trying to do about this, about ensuring the way I think the question was put was like

ensuring that no one was being exploited in the production of this coffee, something like that. And coffee roasters will often tell you about it. Now, because I do research, one of the things that we're interested in doing is figuring out which of these strategies is actually effective in enhancing people's livelihoods, et cetera. Because it's not only about avoiding exploitation, although that's important, it's about avoiding exploitation and making sure that people can prosper by their participation in coffee.

Figuring out, you know, some people make personal visits to coffee farms a big part of how they source their coffee. And that's good because they're present and they feel like, well, I can see it. Other people rely on certifications where third parties like go in and have a checklist and they say, can we see the places where they pick or sleep? Can we talk to them? And they do. And so I would say there's no one size fits all solution to this. I will say also that this is where technology is helping a lot because now using things like blockchain and, you know, simple as cell phones, you're able to really track the source of the coffee. So people are using these and also regulatory bodies are saying,

look, you have to prove that there's no human rights abuses in your supply chain. And companies can do that because they've got the electronic tracking, you know, that goes all the way back to the farm. So yeah, I would say the answer to that is ask the question of wherever you get your coffee and listen to their answer and then use your judgment. If you feel like that resonates positively with you, I feel like most of the companies that are talking about it are sincere in their attempts to improve the situation. Can you say any coffee brands or growers

that you admire for the way they're handling it? Or are there just kind of too many on the scene? I'll mention a couple that I think are interesting. One I think is really interesting here in California is called Pachamama. They're in Sacramento and they're interesting because they're actually owned by coffee growers. Like cooperatives of coffee growers in Latin America and Africa actually own this coffee roasting company that's in Sacramento. Oh.

Which is unusual, right? It's a coffee grower cooperative thing. That's unusual. And it's interesting for that reason. But I would also say that larger companies that people are familiar with, that people may distrust, are often have their act really together. And they're doing a very

good job. They take it very seriously. You know, they've got their commitments and they're doing it and they're living up to their commitments. But small smaller companies and there's way too many to list who are like actively engaged in their own supply chains are interesting and good too for that reason. So what measures are industry standard and are any companies doing it well? So according to Peter's 2023 paper, Understanding Sustainability Interventions,

an Assessment of Experimental Evidence in the Coffee Sector, he says, almost everyone in coffee is aware that coffee is an essential livelihood for millions of coffee producers. But among the more than 12.5 million farmers worldwide who rely on coffee cultivation as their primary source of income, at least 5.5 million, almost half, live below the international poverty line of $3.20 a day.

Now, in a report by NBC News this past January, in Brazil, officials in the international labor sector have zeroed in on major coffee chain suppliers over abusive and unsafe labor practices, including garnishing the cost of harvesting equipment from farm workers' wages, not providing clean drinking water and bathrooms, and employing underage workers. And that NBC report continues that over a dozen workers in the last few years have been rescued from quote modern slavery by inspectors in Brazil.

Now many large international chains, the ones that you might get at the airport or at the mall, they adhere to verifications and certification programs for sustainable and ethical trade coffee. But some of those certification programs are set up by the coffee chain itself. Now Peter says that looking into your favorite coffee brands record and sources is important. Or buying from known brands that are farmer owned, like Pachamama Coffee, or I've read good things about Brandywine, Onyx, Madcap Coffee.

And you can also look into coffee co-ops, or you can do your own research and ask local roasters or cafes, which also gives you the benefit of getting more info about the origin and the flavors of what you're drinking. So creepy practices and straight up human rights violations don't leave a bad taste in your mouth. Now, speaking of shady business, leave a bad taste in your mouth. Now, speaking of shady business, a lot of people wanted to know about shade-grown, Sarah Cheney, San Juan Josey, Marine Flood Molly H. Is what exactly, or in Sarah's words,

what's the deal with the shade-grown coffee and why is that considered more environmentally friendly? I don't know what shade-grown coffee means. I'm so encouraged to hear that question because I'm sometimes skeptical that that's something that we talk about in the industry but people don't know what shade-grown coffee means. I'm so encouraged to hear that question because I'm sometimes skeptical that that's something that we talk about in the industry but people don't know about outside the industry. And it's so great that your listeners know about it.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it's wonderful to hear. So here's the deal. Shade coffee is indigenous to Ethiopia, as I said, and it evolved as a understory shrub under larger canopy of trees. So it sort of evolutionarily likes some protection from direct sun. So coffee can be farmed in that way where you either don't cut a forest down,

you just sort of clear the underbrush and plant the coffee underneath the big trees. You can do it that way. Or you can intentionally plant coffee and then also plant shade trees over it. Now, there's a body of evidence that's very persuasive that shows that these kinds of shade-grown coffee plantations are positive from an ecological point of view. In other words, native species use the trees. It might not be exactly the same as like an untouched forest, but it's pretty good. There's lots and sometimes in some cases even better. There's lots of wildlife in these shade grown plantations. And while some folks say they don't taste a noticeable difference in shade-grown coffee, others insist

that since the fruit matures more slowly in the shade, the beans inside take on a sweeter and more fruity taste than those grown in full sun, which can cause a plant to over bear fruit. And Peter explains. Now there's another alternative. The other alternative is take away all the trees and just grow coffee in full sun, breed the coffee so that it's tolerant to full sun, and you get more productivity that way. But of course you don't get all of the environmental benefits. Right, okay. So shade grown is a positive thing and from an environmental perspective. There's one little small caveat, which is if you're growing in full sun,

and there's some farmers that take this approach, is look, I'm going to grow in full sun over here, but I'm going to leave the forest untouched over here. And rather than integrating them all together, keep them separate, do full sun. So think of those like a hybrid car of sorts. But yes, shade grown in general makes for a happier ecosystem if you were to ask the birds and the bees and the bats. It's broadly thought of as being an

environmentally positive way to grow coffee. The challenging part about shade is it's a little bit subjective. You can call a farm a shade grown farm with only a few trees or with lots of trees. And that's where, you know, people in the industry kind of argue with each other. But in general, shade is a positive thing. How do you feel about goats? Did someone ask? Several people asked. Heather Crane, Patrick Duffy, Char Harrison, Meegan Walker, Danny Kirby. What animal, when it comes to coffee, is the greatest of all time? Getting back to the origins a little bit, if there is, Meegan Walker says, does the story about the goats acting funny after eating coffee berries

have any chance of being true? Well, yeah, flim flam is not the word I would choose. It's a mythos. Let's call it a mythos. Okay. I'm actually really interested in this. I actually have a little bit of a background in folklore. I'm interested in folklore as a subject. And one thing that I learned while investigating this question for myself is there's kind of a lot of myths in the Mediterranean and East Africa and Arabia and stuff about goats discovering things. Okay. And here's one example. There's a Greek story about a shepherd with a goat and the goat starts acting funny

and around this hole in the ground, there's a hole in the ground and gases are coming up from it and the goat is acting funny and it turns out that when people come over this hole, they start to have visions and they wound up building the temple of Apollo at Delphi on the site. That was the discovery of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi. So that's almost exactly the same as the goats discovering coffee story. You know, you call them motifs in folklore. It's

the motif of goat discovering something that turns out to be a good thing to a human. Mm-hmm. And so in that sense, it probably has some truth. There's lots of ghosts in southwestern Ethiopia. Anyone that's spent time with goats knows that goats will eat anything. Same. But I sort of doubt that the story went down exactly as it's told, but it's a good myth. It's a great myth. A few people, Cole Figment, Rachel Von Morrigan,

first-time guest Oscar-winner, Konstantini and Nicolette wanted to know about cold brew. Cole asked, does cold brew really have less acid? Is it better for you? And Figment wanted to know, why does it last forever without getting bitter? And Rachel asks, what's the difference in tossing your hot brew in the fridge and the chemistry of brewing cold? Funny you should ask. Okay. So in the Coffee Science Foundation, we've just now finished three years of research on exactly these questions.

Stop it. Stop it. So I'll take the questions in order. One of the papers we published has the title, Cold Brew Coffee is Less Sour. And there is some evidence that shows that if you brew coffee with cold water instead of warmer water, that you're going to reduce the sourness. So notice I'm careful in saying sourness instead of acidity. Yeah, I was wondering if that was a misspeak, but no, no it wasn't. I'm being careful about this, because we associate of course,

I mean, sourness is our sense of taste that's associated with acid, right? And food science has known this for a long time. You can't just measure acids and know how sour something is going to be. For some reason, perceived sourness is more complicated than that. We perceive certain acids as less sour than others. Other compounds interfere and change things.

So our perception is that cold brew often, when it's brewed, is less sour. Now, is it less acid? Yes, slightly less acid in part because the dynamics are different at different temperatures. I'm being a little bit careful about this because just like anything in science, it gets really complicated, unbelievably complicated. So to answer the question is, well, if I cold brew versus if I hot brew and I throw it in the refrigerator, are they going to taste different? The answer is yes. But it's not just the temperature of the water that's changing there. You're also changing a lot of other things.

Like it takes overnight to brew the coffee using cold brew, whereas it only takes five minutes to brew with hot water. That time difference is meaningful as well. Okay, so cold brew. There's a good chance you're just drinking more of it. Also, it's usually prepared by making a concentrated brew and then diluting it with 50% water, but different establishments may have different math. They may tinker with that proportion. And if you are just tossing cooled down room temperature brewed coffee over ice, you're gonna get something more dilute with less caffeine for the same liquid volume. So first time question asker, Winn Constantini, who asked, why do I feel okay drinking iced

coffee but when I drink cold brew I feel like I'm having an anxiety attack? Winn, what are you? Me? Now when it comes to nitro cold brew, tiny nitrogen gas bubbles are kind of infused into the coffee, just like a draft stout beer like Guinness, to create the smoother creamier mouthfeel. The reason why it fucks you up is because there's not even ice for it, so the volume is greater than the same size coffee over ice. Now, why don't the big coffee chains serve large sizes of cold brew? Some people say it's because it contains enough caffeine to stun a moose, but that is a lie. It's just that in bigger

cups if you get a nitro cold brew, the gases will dissipate before you're done drinking it and then people will complain that it got flat. So you can get two smaller ones because they don't want you saying, this sucks because you took too long to drink it. Now my trick, here's my trick. If you have anxiety and you like iced coffee, but you also hate it watery, but also you don't wanna go to the ER

thinking that you're having a cardiac episode. This is what I do. I just order a single shot, not a double shot. It's half a caffeine over a giant cup of ice with a splash of cream or almond milk and it turns out like a nice cold icy Vietnamese coffee or if it's really hot out that it kind of turns into an Americano on its own. It's not too watery. But that's just my preference.

No, since you're not me, you do not have to like it. So the point is there's certainly lots of differences between cold brew and hot brew. If you like cold brew, that's great. Keep doing it. If you like hot brew, that's great. Keep doing it. But there's no clear winner. Like one is not clearly better than the other.

It really is a matter of taste. I love that there's research going on right now, coffee-fueled research happening. And if you've just enjoyed a venti cold brew and your brain needs to chew through some research, please enjoy the Coffee Science Foundation's new paper, Sensory Analysis of Full Immersion Coffee. Cold brew is more floral and less bitter, sour, and rubbery than hot brew. So let's say you're over bitter, sour, floral, and rubbery. What's next?

What's hot? Many of you have a question you are praying that we will ask, and some of you are patrons. Megan Steadman, Sarah Chaney, Erica Benarski, Ashlyn, Jim Brunberg, Jennifer Lemon, Rosalyn Hesby, Felicia Chandler, The Joyful Spitfire, Deli Dames, Hope Madeline, Laura Wood, Nisa Niehaus, Fleshverse, Zoe Litton, Cecily Templeton, Mary of the Grapefruit, the Joyful Spitfire, Deli Dames, Hope Madeline, Laura Wood, Nisa Niehaus, Flesh Verse, Zoe Litton, Cecily Templeton, Mary of the Grapefruit, Amber, Penita Alexander, Catoole, and First Time Askers, Meg McDaniel,

Susan Dawson, and Rachel Von Morgan, as well as Tara Ward on behalf of Will Ward, and a guy named Jarrett Sleeper, who is legally my spouse and who happened to text me during this interview. All of you asked about the coffee beans that are harvested in a clump that looks exactly like that peanut covered candy bar a payday. So let's get into it. Theria Mans in all caps says, civet poop coffee, please discuss. Sonia Bird wants to know if you've

tried it. I suppose it's called Kopi Luwak. Yes. Is that correct? Aaron White, talk to us about the one that gets pooped out of a cat. Please. Yes. Just why? Yeah. I knew this question comes up all the time and it's a fascinating one. So there's this animal called the civet, the palm civet. And people call it a cat. It's not really, it's more like a raccoon and it's common in Southeast Asia. When there's coffee around this civet will consume the fruit and digest the fruit part and pass the seed part. So you'll find these little poops around that are just coffee beans.

And so at some point somebody decided to collect that and roast it and brew it. Now the civet is interesting for another reason. It's got a gland in it that is used for perfume. You've heard of civet as being a... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's the same animal. And so people had already sort of focused on this animal as being valuable, you know? And I think for that reason, they thought, well, the coffee coming through

a civet must be valuable in the same way, you know? Because it passes right by that gland on its way out, you know? I've seen civets in the wild. I've seen civet, they have civet coffee processing things where they keep the civets in cages and feed them coffee and collect that thing. I've tasted this coffee. I don't find it especially memorable. I think it's a curiosity. People think it's neat or interesting or, you know, there's all these dare foods in the world that people eat, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think of it as sort of like that. But I mean, it's a legitimate, genuine specialty

of Southeast Asia. So civet, poop coffee, also called weasel coffee, or formerly kopi luwak. And it is an expensive dare, essentially, costing upwards of $600 a pound. And sometimes these poor sweet little creatures are kept in cages and just fed the cherries to churn out these golden turd ingots as fast as they can. And the taste has been described as earthy and rich, like an espresso, but other than that, not much different from regular coffee that did not come out of a bud. But it's not like you have to taste this at least one time before you die. I don't feel like it.

In your opinion. I would never, no. I do not feel like it's a bucket list thing. Jenna, first time question asker, love this one, says, my Italian family insists that espresso is healthier than drip coffee. Any truth to that or do my relatives just want to show off their collection of mocha pots? A mocha pot, side note, is one of those cool stovetop espresso carafs. And many of you wanted to know about espresso, such as David Clark, Caitlin Schwartz, Jess Sutner, whose dad is in the roasting business,

Danielle Sucher, and barista Noah Bartley, who kindly begs that you stop calling it espresso. But coffee versus espresso. Let's go. I generally don't comment on coffee and health things because I'm not really an expert. There is some evidence though that coffee brewed through a paper filter has heart benefits over coffee that's brewed in a metal filter. Oh, okay. It's a small effect, but it suggests that coffee brewed with a paper filter

is somewhat healthier from a coronary perspective. For more on this, you can see the 2023 study, Impact of Coffee Consumption on Cardiovascular Health, which found that moderate coffee consumption resulted in decreased risk of coronary heart disease, and heavy coffee consumption resulted in increased risk of coronary heart disease.

Also, unfiltered or boiled coffee has more compounds called deterpenes that inhibit bile acid synthesis, which then can lead to raised cholesterol. So yes, the filtered stuff can be better for your bile and heart, but moderation is your friend as with most things. That said, the general consensus is that coffee drinkers of all kinds live longer than people who don't drink coffee. Does that include people who pour a lot of hydrogenated oils into their coffee like myself?

Or is that only for black coffee? This is why I don't like to comment on any food and health thing. Because the confounding variables just drive you crazy. Yeah. With coffee, the big problem was cigarettes. So many people in the 60s and 50s would drink coffee and cigarettes together that they couldn't tell what was going on. What was good for you and what was killing you.

That's right. That's right. Speaking of death, first time quest asker Michael Garcia wants to know if you and what was killing you. That's right, that's right. Speaking of death, first time Quest-Rasker, Michael Garcia wants to know if you believe shots of espresso die. I imagine, is this a, you leave it out too long before drinking it and it goes bad or yeah? This is barista slang.

Okay. So what happens when you're making espresso shots is in the espresso machine, the coffee powder is pressed into a cake and then hot water is forced under pressure. Nine bars of pressure, nine atmospheres worth of pressure is forced through this coffee. And the coffee has carbon dioxide in it, in the matrix of the coffee itself. So when it comes out, it gets forced to the coffee. Wow, that's heavy.

When it comes out, it's got all this carbon dioxide dissolved in it. But because the pressure goes down, because now it's out of this high pressure environment, it foams up. And that's why coffee when it's coming out of the espresso machine is all foamy. Yeah.

And we call it crema, it looks like the head on a beer. Yeah. And that's pretty much what it is It's the same thing in beer carbon dioxide in the beer creates a foamy Layer on top in coffee same deal carbon dioxide in it creates a foamy head on top I'm just a fun side note those tiny nitrogen bubbles that are in cold brew and in a super compressed Espresso with the creamy top is not unlike divers getting the bends

if they ascended too fast and have decompression sickness where nitrogen under pressure has dissolved into their blood and tissues and then forms bubbles as the pressure goes down and they get closer to the surface. But do not get too much in your head thinking about it. Let's focus on the foamy espresso. I'm sorry that I said anything.

That foamy head will go away over time. Now, why should you care? The answer is that when you drink that espresso, all those little bubbles create a sensation of creaminess in your mouth. And there's actually science about this. There've been studies about what is going on with this matrix of bubbles.

And it turns out that it enhances people's flavor perception of the coffee. And same deal with the milk. When you steam the milk and you create those light, tiny little bubbles, it makes the flavor of the coffee actually more perceptible. Well, okay, question about the barometrics because we have an espresso maker that we love,

use it every day. And sometimes we cannot get bars of pressure and sometimes we can. We're like, is that the grind of the bean? Is that how humid it is? Is that barometric pressure outside? No, that's a great question. Well, I don't think it's barometric pressure outside.

If you grind too fine, you know, it kind of chokes the machine and it won't work. If it's ground too coarse, it flows through really quick and it doesn't work properly. So the grind is important, but without seeing it, I can't really tell. Maybe we just needed a D scale. Yeah, exactly.

But espresso machines are designed to deliver that beautiful nine bars of pressure. And that's what creates this really beautiful, Achille Gaggia, who invented this process in Italy, called it il crema di caffè, the cream of the coffee. And he thought of it like, you know how cream rises to the top of milk? That was the idea. It was like, this is how you get the best of the coffee by putting it under pressure in that way. So I figured that this was in the 1600s, of course,

but no, it was in 1901. Roller coasters have existed longer than espresso. I need some time with this. I'm still in a state of shock. Meanwhile, let's talk beans, shall we? Patrons Figment, Amber Dickerson, Jeff Petters, Weylo, Aaron Yosef, Lindsey Bartholomew, and Magsaroni who asked, what is the actual difference

between coffee beans and espresso beans? Can you use the same beans or should you be using a different type of roast for espresso? Yeah, usually people, you can use the same beans. I mean, you can, but as a person who's developed a lot of espresso in my life, you change things. The espresso machine is like a magnifying glass.

It amplifies all the flavors in the coffee. So if you've got any like pronounced flavors, it will distort that. So you've got to be really careful about balancing flavors in an espresso blend and that's that's why they exist. You create it in such a way that when it goes through the process it comes out as a balanced coffee rather than if you use just a regular coffee that was intended for filter brewing it might be distorted. Oh that's good to know. Yeah. And if you've been wanting to leave us voice questions don don't be bitter. You can upgrade your tier on Patreon if you like. Like this next listener.

Hi, this is Spencer Parks. What is it that people like about the bitterness? What have you found? Personally, I hate the bitterness. So of course, I need to add in a bunch of extra stupid sweet crap to make it tolerable. This was also asked by Dylan V and Rick T. Samoy, first time question asker, Caitlin Comet. And Denny wants to know about the bitterness in coffee. And Caitlin had a great question saying I've heard that some folks use lemon juice or salt to cut the bitter in coffee. Whoa. Is that possible? And what are the ways to drink freshly brewed coffee and avoid bitterness? And we did a gustatology episode on taste not that long ago

about super tasters. And there's this feeling that's like, oh, I drink my coffee black. Obviously, I'm very tough. But apparently, people who are super tasters tend to not like super bitter things because their perception is heightened with coffee and with beer. What is it that makes coffee bitter? And do people, I understand people have a twist of lemon, which seems absolutely bonkers to me. Yeah. There are various chemicals in coffee. A lot of it is chlorogenic acid that creates bitterness in coffee. But there are other sources too.

So like one source that we've talked about already is the roasting process. As you roast, you know, some of the sugars and stuff and other compounds get dark and there are bitter compounds created there. So there's roasting associated bitterness and there's bitterness in the coffee itself. And the bitterness in the coffee itself can vary according to the kind of coffee it is, where it was grown, how it was grown, what species it is, etc. Now, remember those two main species are that very popular and more delicate tasting arabica and then the more caffeinated and bitter robusta.

There are some coffees that are very bitter as the coffee itself, and then there are coffees that are less bitter. And then a good roaster will be able to modulate that bitterness. So that's where the bitterness comes from, from chemicals, generally healthy chemicals, by the way, in coffee, antioxidants that taste bitter to us. Some of it just comes from the plant,

and then some of it can be modulated through roasting. Then what do you do with it? There's a couple of different ways to reduce bitterness in things. One interesting feature of taste is a lot of them interact with each other negatively. So if you are perceiving something is too sweet, you put something sour in it and it'll seem less sweet at the same time as you get sour. So a lot of tastes interact with each other and bitter is one of those. So saltiness will modulate bitterness down and sourness will too. So, and sweetness does.

And sweetness is the most common thing that people use. People put sugar in their coffee. The other thing that people do, of course, is they put milk in bitter coffee, and that interferes with the perception of bitterness too. Milk is good at that. You put milk in chocolate, you get milk chocolate, and it reduces the bitterness by a lot. Same thing with coffee. Now, I will say, though, especially now, there are a lot of non-bitter coffees out there if you just look for them.

Meaning that there are some roasters that do an excellent job of sourcing coffees that are very low in bitterness to begin with, and then roasting them in such a way that the natural sweetness that's in the coffee is amplified, and those coffees are like magically non-bitter and are lovely. Yeah.

A lot of people, if they have a super taster who's not that down with coffee, they nudge them toward either cold brew or Ethiopian light roasts. And again, for more on super tasting, we have this great gustatology episode that explains how your taste buds work. So get into that.

Oh, on the other side of the coin, we also have a disgustology episode to learn why you might retch at bitterness. I have a question from a few people I thought this was great. Emily McBride, first-time question asker, as well as Magsaroni and Ghoulnextdoor want to know, in Emily's words, can you explain how reheating a cup of coffee in the microwave alters the taste? My very tired mom self would love to know. Gullnick Store asked, they say that why does it taste different when it's cooled down and then reheated? They also say that they feel they can taste a difference if they drink it outside versus inside,

but maybe that's all in their head. But microwave and coffee reheating it, what's happening? Good question. Thank you.'s happening? Good question. Thank you. This is an interesting question. There's also a similar phenomenon with coffee that stays in an air pot for a long time. In other words, if you keep it hot for a long time, it changes its flavor, you know? Yeah, yeah.

And we've actually done some research about that and it's been very hard to replicate. The published research on this phenomenon is not very clear and the limited research that we've done has been very hard to duplicate in a laboratory setting where you can actually, you know, quantify what people are tasting. I would say, I'm not doubting that this phenomenon exists, I've experienced it myself where you put a cold cup of coffee in the microwave and it tastes different after you do it than whether you did it. But I don't actually know what is happening there. I wonder.

I mean, if I keep tea in a thermos, especially something metal, it tastes like it's oxidized. It tastes metallic to me, but I don't know. I mean, a great mystery. But if it's helping you stay up and you're a tired mom, then drink away or enjoy. I have no judgment against people that do that, by the way. Yeah, go for it. I mean.

But I do want to say one more thing because it was from the person that was talking about drinking coffee outside versus inside. Yeah. I think one of the things that coffee science has taught me is the importance of, and we call this these extrinsic attributes in coffee. Okay. The intrinsic attributes are the material attributes of the coffee itself, whatever is going into your mouth and doing the chemical reaction with your smell or your taste.

But then there's all the extrinsic attributes. And those are actually really important too. The environment, who you're with, the shape of the cup, all of these things, the things you know about the coffee. There's this phenomenon in coffee, we sometimes call it the honeymoon effect, where people go on vacation on their honeymoons to a place that grows coffee, and then they love that coffee the rest of their life like Kona or Jamaica or Costa Rica you know and that becomes their favorite coffee for the rest of their life. That's something that they know about a coffee that really enhances

their sensory enjoyment. So first time question askers, Carleen D.H., Caitlin Comet, Perry C. I hope that helps with your regional questions and Dawn W., Emily McBride and Grace, that might be why you three love your Hawaiian coffee so much. Just something to think about. And that's not an illusion. That's like, that's a real phenomenon that's happening in their brain. They've actually studied this in food products, you know, sodas and things like that. What you know and what you're perceiving externally about a food is just as important as whatever chemical reaction that's happening. Yeah. This idea of enjoying coffee more when you're outside versus inside and it tasting different,

it probably does taste different. And you should embrace that, and people should not judge that as if it's an illusion. It's not. It's a real thing. In Italian, we say, you eat first with your eyes. And that's true in all of our food and drink. It's an important part. The extrinsic stuff is an important part of any food's enjoyment. Now for more on this, you can see the 2012 Journal of Physiology and Behavior paper titled

You Eat with Your Eyes First, which straight up finds that visual cues modify the way that taste and flavor are perceived. Learned associations create influences that can modify how you perceive flavor and that flavor is affected depending on the strength of your association to it. And I will say, I thought about it, all right? My favorite cup of coffee, I'm gonna bring you with me. It was maybe six years ago, and it was probably like a store brand can of whatever,

brewed in an old Mr. Coffee with white sugar and powdered creamer. It was made by my dear Aunt Margot in a tiny cabin built by my great-grandmother on a Montana prairie. And I held this cup of coffee in the 7 a.m. dawn as it steamed, and I walked around in this grayish-blue light by myself on these acres that my family has worked now for six generations. And I saw fresh antelope poop as the sun rose in the sweet grass and it just tasted the best. I probably wasn't a lot to do with the coffee itself, but it

was the best tasting cup of coffee I've ever had. Speaking of best, I always ask hardest part, worst part, easiest, best part about your job. But in this instance, I am going to ask a challenge about your job, but then I'd love I am gonna ask a challenge about your job, but then I'd love to know the best way to make a cup of coffee. So, okay, hardest thing about your job and then best way to make a cup of coffee. The hardest thing about doing coffee as a job

is I think it's a hard part for anybody that works in something that they love. Like, if your work is something that you love, then every day you get to do something that you love, which is a good thing, but it also turns the thing that you love into your job. You know what I mean? So this is what I learned. I loved going to coffee shops when I was younger. And then I started running coffee shops. And now when I go to a coffee shop, all I can see is the dishes that need busing or they're steaming the milk wrong or something like that. It kind of ruins it for me. And that's true for coffee now. It's very hard for me to just enjoy a cup of coffee because I always have to be analytical

about it and that drives me crazy about that. I wish I could just have a simple enjoyment of a cup of coffee. So that's the only bad part about my job to me is that it's my job. It's a job. It's hard for me to listen to podcasts. I get it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I get it. Or like actors say that they don't like to watch their movies. Yeah, exactly

But I love it. But yeah, okay best way to brew a cup of coffee. I am a minimalist So I do pour overs in my home. Okay, but I also love espresso. I just don't do it in my house. I to me Espresso is something that Exists in a coffee shop, you know? So espresso is special. You know, you're not going to get me to choose a brewing technique because to me they're like children.

That'd be like choosing my favorite kid, you know? I know, but I feel like parents do have favorite kids and they just don't stay like they like. But the truth is, I do a pour over for myself every day. You do. Every day, that's what I do. Do you weight it out? What temperature water do you weigh out the grams? Wow, thank you for asking.

I have a grinder that sort of automatically, I set it to how many grams I want it to do and it does it, you know? So I do weigh the grams, technically. Luckily it only takes me a push of a button. Oh, fancy, fancy. And then I use, right now I'm using 88 degrees Celsius water because that's the low end of what we've done the research on.

I know, God, this look, um, well, water temperature does affect coffee taste, not as much as a lot of people think, but, but it does. About 190 Fahrenheit Americans. But that's what I do. I've also got a kettle that I just set it to, but that's not the important part. The temperature and the, and the grams they're fixed, but that's not to me the important part. The thing I love about pour-over is not that it's precise. The thing I love about it is it's something I get to do. It's like I grind the coffee, I put it there, it's my little moment.

It's like a little meditative ritual for me. And it's not about precision for me, it's about ritual. And that's something I actually really love. I've also, I've lived with people whose goal it is to have somebody come and pour coffee in their mouth while they're still in bed. I mean, that's some people's dream and I respect that too. But yeah, for me, the little cooking moment

that I do with my coffee in the morning, usually I'm by myself, is really nice. And that's what I love. Do you have a bean, a type of bean that you like, a type of filter you like? And also do you pour it over and let it bloom for a minute and then pour it over? Is that the importance of a goose neck? Yes. That whole blooming thing, that's real.

And what's happening in the blooming is that carbon dioxide that I was talking about earlier, the hot water sort of softens the coffee grounds, it allows it to release some of that carbon dioxide, it foams up and it's softening everything and getting it ready to be extracted. We sometimes call it pre-extraction for that reason. And that really does work. Doing a blooming thing, it's easier with a goose-neck kettle, will make the coffee a little bit better, plus it smells great. The other reason I like a pour-over, I'm standing there to smell that as it's releasing

all that aroma into my kitchen, and I love it. I am lucky that I get to be exposed to coffees from all over the world and I love the diversity of coffee flavor from all over the world. Ethiopia is a special origin to me because it's the origin. But I also love just like the honeymoon effect, I've got my own personal affection for the country of Nicaragua where I did a lot of my early coffee travel. Indonesia has always been an interest, Sumatra especially, has always been a fascinating place to me in my mind, and that gets reflected in the coffees that I love. I'm not done asking questions.

What about filter? Gold filter? Well, I like paper filter. I like paper filter, but I'm not really picky about that. I also value, and I think a lot of people do, I value to be able to brew coffee under whatever conditions. In other words, I don't have a meltdown if I can't get my favorite filter. If I'm at somebody else's house and they don't have

exactly the kind of machine I like, I look at it as a cool challenge to try to make coffee under challenging circumstances. You know? I love camp coffee. I love drinking coffee when you're camping. Exactly. Even if it's like a busted percolator or something,

you know what I mean? Like that's the best. Like coffee outside in the morning is my favorite. I love it too. It tastes different. And when I go camping, I bring one pot, you know, it's like a cast-iron, one pot, and I try to do everything with that one pot. Fried bacon, hit water for coffee, everything, you know. I love that sort of challenge. Well, you're in

Southern California, we should go camping sometime. Yes, let's do it. You and my husband are going to talk about coffee. I'll bring the coffee. You bring the tea. I can assure you I will be drinking much coffee for that. So ask captivating people caffeinated questions and to learn more about Peter and the Specialty Coffee Association as well as the Coffee Science Foundation you can see the links in the show notes or you can head to alleywar.com slash ologies slash coffee ology. Peter is also on Instagram as Peter Geodesic and we're on there too at Ologies, as well as on X, we're at Ologies there.

I'm Allie Ward on both. And if you'd like kid-friendly versions of Ologies, we launched a new show called Smologies, which has its own feed and is linked in the show notes, or you can search for it wherever you get podcasts. Also, if you're finding that our shows aren't auto downloading lately, it's because of Apple's updated podcast app function. But other apps don't seem to be having that issue. So switch to Spotify or elsewhere. Hot tip. Also, we have Allogy's merch available at the link in the show notes. Erin Talbert admins the Allogy's podcast Facebook group.

Aveline Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly R. Dwyer makes the website. Noelle Dilworth is our faithful scheduling producer. Susan Hale managing directs the whole shebang. Jake Chaffee is our lovely editor. And lead editor on Dex is the always warm and sweet Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick Thorburn made the theme music. And if you stick around to the end of the episode,

I tell you a secret. And I have two for you. And one is that I forgot to tell you how coffee is decaffeinated. So I'm going to make this quick. That's part of my secret because I forgot to fit this in. OK, so caffeine dissolves in water. So they can treat a green unroasted bean

with a chemical agent like ethyl acetate. So they soak the beans. They get out a bunch of flavor and caffeine. And then they treat that leftover caffeinated water. And then they reintroduce just the flavors from that now decaf water back into the beans or they can treat the beans directly with a chemical solvent that breaks down the caffeine and that chemical solvent Mostly leaves the beans when they're roasted There's also using CO2 pressure to extract caffeine or there's this thing called the Swiss water process method

where they soak the unroasted beans in hot water they They get out some of the flavor and the caffeine from them, and then they reintroduce the leftover water, which is called green coffee extract, to the now decaffeinated beans, and they keep doing that, washing them with this tasty water that no longer has caffeine. That's the long and short of it. It wasn't the best explanation.

It's the secret at the end of the episode. Cut me some slack. Go Google it if you really wanna know more. Okay, cool secret, Ali. Also, second secret this episode is dedicated to my friend, It's a secret at the end of the episode. Cut me some slack. Go Google it if you really want to know more. Okay, cool secret, Ali. Also second secret this episode is dedicated to my friend, Bruce Dennis, who is a really wonderful guy, someone I love very dearly who passed away on Thursday. He had multiple myeloma, which is the same cancer that my dad had.

So a bunch of love goes out to his gorgeous, wonderful family. And Bruce loved the jazz music that they played at this coffee roasting place in Pasadena, California. It's called Jones Coffee Roasters and they have jazz music in the mornings he would go to. He called it church for him. And so if you're in the Pasadena area and you feel like catching some coffee and jazz there, you can raise a cup to Bruce at Jones Coffee Roasters. Okay. That's it for my secrets. Thanks for listening brush your tongue Bye bye Serious

You know, this is excuse me a damn fine cup of coffee