Ologies with Alie Ward - Speleology (CAVES) with Gina Moseley

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

Caves! Caverns! Grottos! Crystals! Let's get down and dirty with Speleology with explorer, researcher, professor, and paleoclimatologist Dr. Gina Moseley. She shares what it’s like to spend a week straight in a cave, safety tips, climate research breakthroughs, and the deepest and darkest caves. Also: stalactites, stalagmites, cave clouds, show caves, who counts as a spelunker, what ancient climate science can tell us about our current sticky situation, cave diving, cave rescues, creepy caves, gated caves, old school versus new school cave mapping, if cavers ever lose their damn minds down there, and why nothing beats the longing for the underground. Grab a friend and wear a helmet. We’re goin’ in. Follow Dr. Gina Moseley on GoogleScholarA donation went to the British Cave Rescue CouncilMore episode sources and linksSmologies (short, classroom-safe) episodesOther episodes you may enjoy: Chiropterology (BATS), Indigenous Pedology (SOIL SCIENCE), Geology (ROCKS), Disasterology (DISASTERS), Metropolitan Tombology (PARIS CATACOMBS), Fearology (FEAR)Sponsors of OlogiesTranscripts and bleeped episodesBecome a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a monthOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, hoodies, totes!Follow @Ologies on Instagram and XFollow @AlieWard on Instagram and XEditing by Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio Productions and Jacob ChaffeeManaging Director: Susan HaleScheduling Producer: Noel DilworthTranscripts by Aveline Malek Website by Kelly R. DwyerTheme song by Nick Thorburn

Oh, hi. Hey, it's the second place pie at the Bake Off Alley Ward, and here we are with a deep dark exploration for you of some freaking caves. Let's get musty. Let's get into the hole as fast as we can. All right. This guest is a well-decorated and lauded Nat Geo explorer, a paleo climate researcher, a caver, and they studied physical geography at the University of Birmingham in the UK,

studying microclimatology of caves, and then got a PhD at the University of Birmingham in the UK, studying microclimatology of caves, and then got a PhD at the School of Geographical Sciences at the University of Bristol. They're now an assistant professor of paleoclimatology at the University of Innsbruck. And she has explored caves all over the world, including in the remote reaches of Greenland. And we'll hear about those adventures in a minute. But first, thank you to all the patrons who support the show for a dollar or more a month

at patreon.com slash ologies, where you can submit questions we may read on the show. You can also wear your ologies merch to find other ologites in the wild. We have that at ologiesmerch.com, which is linked in the show notes. If you have not heard, if you're looking for a kid-friendly episode,

we have started a new show called Smallogologies that you can find anywhere you get podcasts. That's linked in the show notes. And also thank you to everyone who's ever written a review. They help so much. I have read them all, and to prove it, I pick a fresh plucked one. And this week it's from Katie Holyfield who wrote that they always feel like they are smarter, kinder, and more understanding after listening. Also they had a dream that they met me at a bakery and that I helped them pick out the

perfect pastry and that we became best friends. Katie Hollifield, can't go wrong with an almond croissant unless you're allergic to almonds or dairy or you have celiac. Let's get down into it. Let's get dirty with the word speliology, which comes from, once again, the Greek. It always comes from Greek, pretty much always. Speleo, meaning caves. And in this episode, we're going to cover everything you ever wanted to know. Like how deep does something have to be to really be a cave? How dark is it really down there? Do cavers ever lose their

damn minds? What's the longest this guest has lived in a cave? Huge crystal formations, stalactites, stalagmites, cave clouds, show caves, who counts as a spelunker, what ancient climate science can tell us about our current kind of sticky situation, cave diving, cave rescues, creepy caves, gated caves, haunted caves, old school versus new school mapping, and why nothing beats the longing for the underground with professor, explorer, paleoclimatologist and yes, paleologist Dr. Gina Mosley and I use she, her. Do you refer to yourself as a speliologist or is that a term that only people who are not cave people like to use?

That's quite a funny question. No, I do consider myself a speliologist, also a paleoclimatologist. So there's kind of two branches of science that I'm working with. And something that I often hear kind of American audience, it uses the term spelunker, which is a term that British cavers generally don't tend to use, I have to say.

I feel like someone who's a spelunker is, I think of them as someone who could go down just for sport or thrills or because they like to be terrified, but a speliologist definitely seems like you're down there with a clipboard, you're collecting data, you're measuring stuff. I guess it depends who you're talking to, but yeah, everyone identifies a little bit differently I guess, even in their own sports. It depends who you're talking to, but yeah, everyone identifies a little bit differently, I guess, even in their own sports. Just a side note.

So I was a big ignoramus to this, but I just found out that in the UK, some people call caving potholing because it's like going in a pothole. But that may just refer to the exploration of more vertical caves, while spelunking is about checking out horizontal caves. But then I learned that calling someone a spelunker is like saying that they're a cave poser. And this dates back nearly 40 years, when the editor of the magazine American Caving Accidents, which subscribed me immediately, once wrote, the term spelunker denotes someone

untrained and unknowledgeable in current exploration techniques and caver is for those who are trained and knowledgeable. And some cavers, they have bumper stickers that say, cavers rescue spelunkers. What? Just when you thought caves were at their darkest, more shade. I would say speleologists are going into caves. Some study, for instance, the geology or the formation of the caves. Others might be studying biology. Others might be doing the exploration and the

mapping. Those people would also be speleologists as well. If you are going into a cave or going into this field, is there a big chance that you really dig caves? Like you really like going in them? Oh, I thought you meant the other kind of digging there, like removing soil and stuff, which speleologists do love to do as well, I have to say. Yeah, generally speaking, people that really want to go into caves really dig caves as you say and jokes aside there are people that spend their free time digging out sediment and boulders because they're so driven by trying to find that next bit of cave passage that

nobody has ever seen before them that they spend weeks, months, years, decades, literally digging caves to try and find the passages beyond. Yeah. Do people in your field have any idea how much of the caving systems out there have been uncovered and how much are just completely unknown to us? Yeah, that is a question that often comes up. I would say from a truly scientific perspective, we've got no idea how much is yet to be discovered. Okay, cool, cool, cool, cool. However, other people would say take the average amount of known cave in

limestone, for instance, and then look at how much limestone is on earth, and then guess how much there is left to be discovered, for instance, and that would be a huge amount. But as a kind of true, let's say, scientist, I'm not going to have a guess at that, really. So even speleologists have no idea. And I find this thrilling. Like when you have one of those dreams that I have all the time, that your house has an undiscovered room, like you open up the medicine chest and then suddenly there's another house in there,

or you see TikToks of people who find catacombs underneath their farm houses. And to think the earth has those all over the damn place. Are a lot of the caves, are they limestone or are they granite caves or are they obsidian caves or do they typically happen only in a certain type of rock? No, caves are basically holes in the ground and essentially they're mostly found in limestone.

This is because limestone is quite easy to dissolve with a very weak acid. So as soon as you have some water and it mixes with carbon dioxide in a soil, it becomes very slightly acidic. And then that allows for dissolution of limestone. And that ultimately is what forms the majority of caves. But indeed, you can get caves inside glaciers.

And then they would be glacier caves. You can also find lava tubes. So these are caves that form from volcanic eruptions when the outside of the lava flow cools down and hardens but the inside is still molten and flows through. And then when that eruption is finally finished, then you have lava tubes. Brand new ones are being formed in Iceland, as we speak over the last few years. And then there's also caves in quartzite and sandstone.

So these tend to be formed through more abrasive processes rather than dissolution processes like in limestone. So another type of abrasive form caved might be a sea cave, also called a literal cave or a grotto, and those form around a body of water, and they're from waves lapping at the shoreline making these indentations. Or sandstone caving systems might be mechanically made from tectonic shifts, but most of the caves are called solution or karst with a K caves where that very lightly acidic rainwater seeps into a crack in a rock and over time eats away at more and more of the

rock to form these hollow drippy systems, usually out of carbonate rocks like limestone or marble or rock salt like halite or from gypsum. And for more on what rock is who, you can see the wonderful two-part geology episode with Schmidty Chomson. A wonder. Love them. But yeah, if it's a hole in a rock, you got a cave. Sort of.

So if you can get underground and kind of get away from daylights, then it's a cave. I'm wondering how big or small can a cave be? Like if you have a two-foot depression in rock, is that a cave or do you have to be able to fit something specific in it, like the size of a car? Oh my goodness. What is it? What is it?

I laugh because cavers could argue about that for an end, honestly. Yeah, generally speaking, a person has to be able to fit in it. There are also then debates about if you have to be kind of beyond the twilight zone, if you have to like actually get into the dark or not. And for instance, I've had a fantastic series of expeditions in Greenland in the last years and the caves we're exploring there were once really big long systems but now they're all like

chopped up and there's just like corners left of these caves and small passages and things and people have said to me they aren't caves you know I get a little bit defensive of them because I'm like well they were caves once but you know we don't get out of daylight anymore, so maybe they're not caves anymore. So the dark makes the cave? It's interesting too to think of them in that human perspective, like what a badger or a squirrel might consider a cave might be a lot smaller, or what a mammoth might consider a cave. It's like that subjective. I love the idea of spelunkers and speleologists absolutely cutthroat

arguing and getting into flame wars, heated text messages, blocking people on social media. And do you travel a lot for your work or do they have a lot of caves in, I'm guessing you're based and from the UK? Yeah, I'm from the UK originally, but since 2011 I've been living in Austria because there's an excellent cave science research group here in the Alps. But we were also working in America, in New Mexico, also in the Yucatan. There are fantastic expeditions I've been on in Borneo

and India. In more recent years, you know, I kind of stayed closer to home, partly because, you know, I kind of stayed closer to home, partly because, you know, I'm working as a climate change scientist as well. So on a personal level, I'm reducing my travel quite a bit. And also with a young family, it's just hard to go away now. So I'm not traveling as much anymore. You can't take your three year old toddler in a backpack into a caving system, I'm guessing. Well, people do.

That's true. A few years ago, I was on a job photographing a cave with my partner. And at three months old, we took our daughter into a cave. It's so funny. I have this photograph of pushing, my partner's pushing the pram up to the cave entrance. And then she slept through the whole thing in the cave.

I was breastfeeding in a cave at one point as well. It was quite a ride. Oh, it's amazing. Yeah. And then when she got older, maybe at like 18 months or something, we took her into a cave and then she kind of knew what was going on and she absolutely hated it. Really? Yeah, it was terrible. Now she wants to go again. She's kind of excited by mummy and daddy going into caves and she keeps saying, can we go in the cave? When are we going Yeah, it was terrible. Now she wants to go again. She's kind of excited by mommy and daddy going into caves and she keeps saying, can we go in the cave? When are we going in

the cave? So I think we have to try it again now. And is your partner a speleologist as well? He is. Yeah, yeah. And he specializes in photographing caves. So he's doing the arty side of caving and I'm doing the science side of caving. Did you meet him that way? Yeah. I mean, the caving community is fairly small, I have to say. So we all tend to know each other or know of each other in a roundabout kind of way. And it's funny, a lot of people kind of go, oh fancy that meeting each other caving,

but then another person once said, well it would be more weird if they met in the supermarket queue, you know, imagine standing at the checkout and someone said, hey I like c be more weird if they met in the supermarket queue, you know, imagine standing at the checkout and someone said, hey, I like caving, hey, I'm into caving, like that would be more weird, wouldn't it? That would be. There's not that many of you considering how many people there are on earth, but how did you get into it? Oh, that is a good question and I could talk for the rest of this time about that. But basically I was on a family holiday and we were on this campsite and there was a guy

there who was running kind of outdoor activities for the family staying on the campsite. And my mum wanted to try caving and she said, Oh Gina, will you come with me? And I said, Oh yeah, why not? And so I went along and I was completely hooked on it from the start and we went in this little cave called Goat Church Cavern, which has kind of been sacrificed to scout groups and guide groups and beginner cavers. So there's nothing pretty to see in this cave at all. And it's small and it's just about crawling ground

in some passages underground really. But I absolutely loved it. And then I went a few more times that week and I would save up money from my newspaper round that I had after school. And then in the summer I'd do as much caving as I could during that one week in the summer holidays. Curiosity was burning a hollow into my Boulder brain. And I looked up Goat Church Cavern. And it's what's called a show cave, meaning it's open to the public. It's kind of like an ambassador cave.

Like humans, allow me to introduce you to a cave. But there are still lights inside and handrails, and usually a guide and like a gift shop so you can purchase geodes or keychains naturally. Also Goat Church Cavern has more than just some scout troops inside. Some deeper inspection, they had to scrub off some graffiti on its walls and then they found some etchings dating back maybe 500 years and they may have been used in rituals. So they're called witch marks.

Witch marks in a cave doesn't get more goth. Also let's have a real quick glossary. So what is the difference between a cave and a cavern? I had no idea. Some people say a room within a cave system is a cavern. Well others insist that a cave is only a cavern if it is accessorized with speleothems, aka rock growths such as stalactites and stalagmites. But I've also read that a cavern is only the entrance of the cave where you can't see any outside light, whereas a cave is what it's called once you're in utter darkness, and especially in relation to cave diving. So just let this be a lesson.

It really kind of depends on who you ask. And apparently a lot of guides joke that the difference between a cave and a cavern is two letters. Maybe only spelunkers care. Although I thought maybe a cavern was one that you walked into and a cave you squeezed into and just prayed for the best. But Gina laughed at me and said, most caves, there's no strolling in. I think you're the first person who has I've ever spoken to, said, I imagine just walking into a cave because normally most people just think about the tight, crawly, nasty bit and

then they go, oh, I'm claustrophobic, I can't do that. So to imagine walking into a cave is quite a unique thought process. That tells you the kind of caves I've been to or how the caves that I could have been to. Yeah, sure. Yeah, it completely varies. So caves within a particular region will tend to have a particular kind of character, and that comes down to the geology and the way the caves are being formed, the climate, how much rainfall there is in a region or snowfall and all that sort of thing. So it depends where you are in the

world. But you know, ultimately, you can experience absolutely everything you want to in a cave. You can be crawling in really tight small spaces where you have to take your helmet off and put one arm in front of you and like push your bag ahead in order to get through. You can be head first, you can be feet first, you can be upside down, you can be on either side. Or you can walk into a cave, you can climb over boulders, you can be swimming, you can go through what's called a sump where you kind of duck underneath the water or actually dive as well if you're into cave diving, which I am not. And then there's also a lot of technical stuff

going on as well. So this is what we call single rope technique, which involves using ropes to get up and down vertical sections of cave. But yeah, people go down that and then they have to climb all the way back up. And how deep of caves do cavers abseil or climb down on ropes? I didn't know that word until literally today. Now one pit cave, which is Maokang in China, has an unbroken vertical shaft.

It's just over 500 meters deep, which rivals the tallest skyscrapers in the Western Hemisphere, which, you know what, is trifling, quite frankly, when compared to this wandering depth of this system called the Varyavkina Cave, which descends into the earth 2,223 meters, or over 7,200 feet, which would be nearly six Empire State buildings stacked on top of each other. And Sheena elaborates on that one. The deepest cave in the world is over two kilometers deep, and that's in the Caucasus. That involves an awful lot of rope work as well. That's very vertical.

But then at the bottom of that, it becomes a very horizontal system. So after four days of people out sailing and camping to get down to the bottom, they then set up camp at the bottom of the cave and then they can walk from there in the horizontal passages at the bottom. Four days of going vertical and then you just sleep in a hammock somewhere along the way? They sleep in makeshift tents. So you know, you can just make a tent out of a foil blanket, you know, like you would have at the end of a marathon. So you can pull up some washing line and string and make a kind of tent out of that because you don't need a full on four

season Everest style tent to camp in a cave. You just need to keep the draft out and it needs to be lightweight because you have to carry everything. Take sleeping bags down and sleeping mats and yeah, just camp down there and then move on. So it's pretty wild. And of course, you really have to plan and have enough batteries and lights and all that sort of stuff as well if you'll be down there for really a long time. I had to know for all of us, where do you go to the bathroom if you're in a cake? Oh, well, that's also a big topic of conversation, which I like to get in trouble about. Let's say the regulations are that everything should be brought out of the cave. Whether everybody

adheres to that, I can't say. Put it that way. Got it. Got it. Okay. So some leave no tracers dig a little hole like eight inches deep. It's called a cat hole. They do their biz, and then they cover it up. But due to the delicate microbial environments, cavers are held to a higher standard and are encouraged to use what are called wag bags.

And those contain a solidifying powder developed by NASA. And yeah, you roll that up, and you keep that at the bottom of your bag. You don't get to leave it in the cave. Now, other DIY options include what is unfortunately called a burrito. And it involves a homemade kit consisting of wet wipes and a turkey roasting bag, which when tied correctly are pretty puncture proof. And I read too much about this. And I'm going to stop now before I ruin it

for burritos everywhere. Other people simply say, fuck this. Let's pretend nothing ever happened. You didn't see me. I didn't see you. That's not necessarily the way to go. Humps of word there. But how long have you spent in a cave without surfacing?

That was a week. That was in Lechuguilla in New Mexico, which was incredible. It is one of the most beautiful caves on the planet and it's such a privilege to get to go there. Yeah, I spent a week underground and took photographs and did some exploration and mapping and things and it was just amazing. It was incredible. And you know, when you do these things, you spend a lot of time with a handful of select people who you become very close with in a short space of time. It's a really cool team bonding experience actually. It's really good.

And when you are down there, are you collecting samples or how are you mapping something that's in the dark, that's rocky, that's underground, that might have tiny passages? What type of sciencing do you get to do down there? Well, I mean, that depends on the purpose of the trip. So if you're there exploring and mapping, then historically that would have been done simply with a compass and clino, a tape measure, and someone on a notebook. And people would look around the cave, you'd have teams of two or three, and you'd go from point to point and measure the distance

between one point and another point. You measure the azimuth and you measure the inclination. So in general, distances from the fixed observer at different angles. There's not going to be a quiz. It's fine. You measure how far away the left wall is, the right wall, the ceiling, and the floor from where you are. And then the person on the book is actually making a sketch as you go through the cave, hopefully to scale. And In that, they put all the details of where there's boulders, where there's calcite formations, where there's water, where there's bats, where there's insects, where there's passages going off in a direction, where there's holes in the floor, where there's holes in the ceiling. All these things go into that sketch map.

Historically, when cavers were using, for instance, carbide lights, which are these small little flames that miners used to use, they would miss sometimes passages going off because they couldn't see them with the lighting they had. Sounds very dark. So then as lighting has got better over the years and people have gone back to passages that have already been mapped, then they may see that there are other passages going off that were not seen previously. And then that then gets explored and gets

added to the survey of the cave. But then also with time, not only is lighting improved, but obviously digital and electronic technologies have moved on. So then we moved on to having laser distance measureers, which do the distance and the inclination and azimuth for us. And then they're connected to an Android phone

or a PDA or something, and it immediately pops up on the screen. And ultimately someone's still drawing, but now they're drawing on a handheld device rather than an old notepad with a pencil. And then even further on our expedition in Greenland last year, we actually took a handheld 3D laser scanner and literally just walked through the cave and it mapped it for us.

Wow. So it's always changing. That's got to be such an advancement for speleologists. That must be huge. Do most people just do it that way? Are they kind of moving toward that digital laser or are there purists who are like, no, you have to do this by hand measurement? I think most people today would be using the distance laser measure connected to an electronic

device. Most people are definitely not using the 3D laser scanner because for a start they're very expensive and then you have a lot of data that you have to process and then it ends up in a 3D model which is wonderful to look at on a screen and to use that to study the cave but as a mapping tool to then go back to a cave with a 2D mapping at hand like if I was to pass it on to somebody else to say no here's map. If you want it for that purpose of using it to get through a cave, then a 3D model isn't good for that. Then you want a 2D map, like a traditional one. So

that's where the distance laser measure and the PDA still comes in. And how often do caves just collapse? Because I would think that if I step foot, or rather step by my belly crawl into a cave, it would just collapse on me. I'd be buried in rubble forever. But are they pretty sturdy? Well, yes, I'm going to say yes they are. When we go in a cave it has been formed over tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years with water. So I'm talking about limestone caves now as well with water that has slowly dissolved away the rock. That's pretty stable. It's been standing there a long time. But of course, there are boulders on the floor quite often, so they've fallen from somewhere. So rock falls do happen. And if you're going through, say, a boulder choke, then that might be loose and unstable. So that will be an area where a cave has collapsed. But it's really not common that as you're walking through a cave,

it just collapses on you. And if you need more robust research on this, there are speleology, traumatology epidemiologists out there. And one such paper is from 2012. It's titled The Epidemiology of Caving Injuries in the United States. And it reports that between 1980 and 2008, there were 81 caving fatalities, which is about three deaths per year. And the majority occurred from falling or from drowning, although in a jam that caused 18% of fatalities.

Just last month in Northern Vietnam, one person was killed in a cave and it's suspected that it was because of illegal gold mining within the natural caves. So beware ye shady excavations. Mines may be different. Mines are places where humans have excavated it and are now only some tens or hundreds of years old. But on the whole, no, they don't just collapse. But that's not to say that we aren't looking out for maybe unstable ceilings or even unstable floors. I did have one experience where I was walking along a false floor and I didn't realize it and I just went through

it and I only fell like half a foot or something, but of course it could have been worse. Have you ever found anything or anyone in a cave? Anything or anyone, like snakes and bats and things, yeah. It's not uncommon to find sheep and dogs and things in caves. They often get rescued. I wasn't sure how many people have disappeared into caves. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, no, that's not so common, I have to say.

Is it good to go on a buddy system as a team just for safety? Yeah, definitely. A buddy system's always good. Also, you know, telling people on the surface where you're going, even if there's, you know, several of you going, it's always good to have a call out on the surface so people can know when to expect you back in case something does go wrong.

But of course some people do also go on their own. Yeah, I don't, but people do, you know. That's wise, wise. It makes sense. And if you're not sure how to get started caving, you can ask the internet some cursory questions. Now, the Bureau of Land Management has this wonderful safety guide with all kind of hot, steamy tips I never would have known. And I'm going to link this on our website. I'm also going to read them to you with my mouth. So it says, here are the tips. Leave word with someone stating what cave you will be visiting

and an approximate return time. Never go caving alone. Always have three to four people in a group. Each person in the group must have three independent light sources and extra batteries. Matches, candles, and glow sticks are not considered light sources. Wear a helmet, preferably an approved one,

to protect against low ceilings and some falling rocks. Use a chin strap to prevent losing your helmet and light. And it doesn't call you a buffoon here, but it could. It also says to mount your main source of light on your helmet to free your hands for climbing. Wear sturdy footwear, such as boots that protect the ankle, and have non-leather, non-skid, non-marking soles.

Bring gloves. Bring knee pads if necessary. If you're going into the cave for an extended period of time, carry water and food for each person. Stay within your abilities and experience level to avoid injuring yourself and to avoid damaging the cave also. Avoid drowning by not entering gypsum caves or other storm drain type of caves if there is threat of rain.

Always watch for and avoid poisonous creatures such as snakes and insects. So grab a friend or three and get caving. Maybe you'll even spot a dead bird or an alive spider. And also now that I've asked most of my terror based questions, we can get to more of the science. And as a paleoclimatologist, you mentioned how old some of these caves are, maybe up to hundreds of thousands of years old. What do you study when it comes to paleoclimate? What are you able to discern from these old caving systems versus what we've got going on right now?

So I'm studying climate change that happened in the past. So this is an anthropogenically forced climate change. This would be natural climate change that happened in the past. So this is an anthropogenically forced climate change. This would be natural climate change that's happened over Earth's history, basically. And to do that, I work with calcite mineral deposits. So these are small pieces of like calcium carbonate that get deposited by water within caves. And most people might be familiar with them as like stalactites or stalagmites that form from the ceiling or on the ground. So, a stalactite with a C forms on the ceiling and a stalagmite with a G forms on the ground.

Hey! Yeah, that's how you remember. That's great. I was going to ask about that. A conical formation hanging from the ceiling is usually composed of years of mineral deposits from dripping water, crystallizing onto itself, and hanging kind of like an icicle. From the ceiling, stalactite, or since it has two T's and that word you can think of top. Now, if water is dripping and the minerals are forming a stack and it's on the ground,

that's a stalagmite. So, go forth, win some bar trivia, spill a little beer on the floor for me, or really for Dr. Gina Mosley, speleologist. And why does she study them? It's pretty cool. And these stalactites and stalagmites form from water that has traveled from the ocean where it's evaporated and then traveled through the atmosphere, it's then fallen as precipitation, be that rainfall or snow for instance. It's passed through soil above the cave and then dissolved the limestone above the cave and then as it's entered the cave, it's deposited

a small amount of calcium carbonate and brought with it a chemical signature of that entire transport process that it's been on, so the state of the ocean, the atmosphere, the vegetation above the cave, how active the soil is and these sorts of things. That all gets trapped within the different layers of the stalagmite, a bit like tree rings in effect, except that this is layers of rock that are forming. Getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And so then I come along and I take samples with permission.

We collect stalagmites and all cores of stalagmites and actually leave the stalagmite intact in the cave and just take a core out of the middle of it for instance so that we don't destroy the aesthetics of the cave. And then I can analyze the changes in the chemistry through the stalagmite. And then that tells me about the state of the climate and the environment at the time. But then to put that into perspective, we have to know when that stalagmite was forming in order to put that climate and environmental record in the context of some time period in the past. And this

could be the last few thousand, tens of thousands of years. And it can even go back millions of years if you have some caves that are that old. What has shocked you that you've done with your research? Did you get any conclusions or results or analysis that you really weren't expecting? Yeah. I mean, this is what drives us on with science, right, to find those answers. And the more surprising ones normally give you a headache for a short while or a long while. But that's kind of what's exciting really, then talking about it and working it

out. I think there's a couple of ones to pull out. One is Devil's Hole in Nevada, which is a project I worked on some years ago. And Devil's Hole is famous for other reasons. It is a small fracture in the desert, in the Amigoos Desert, and there are pup fish that live within this cave. And they've got a population of less than a hundred and they only live in this one particular cave in Nevada. Now this is, yeah I know crazy hey, we don't work in that cave because the pup fish are there and obviously they're highly protected but next door there is Devil's Hole number two cave and basically you up sail down and you reach that aquifer underneath the desert. And for hundreds of thousands of years, calcite has been precipitating out of that aquifer,

out of the groundwater and onto the cave walls. So this is a different kind of deposition. It's not a stalactite or a stalagmite. It's actually called mammillary calcite. But ultimately, it's the same kind of idea. Where does that name come from? Mammillary? Is it kind of like mounds, like boobs? Like how there's mammatus clouds?

I never thought of it that way, but maybe. And I don't know the answer. But it does kind of look moundy. Yeah, so possibly. Like cloudy. Yeah. Mamma Larry's are rounded knobs of calcite that appear on the ceiling and walls. And yes, these cave formations look like knockers. Honestly, kind of hot ones and definitely were named after boobs. But according to the National Speleological Society, mammillaries, also called cave clouds, are carbonate coatings that form underwater in cave pools whose water is super saturated with calcium carbonate.

And Gina told me that she has done research on Devil's Hole cave number two, and it's an important one because in the late 70s, early 80s, it was in Devil's Hole that they obtained the very first long climate record from a cave. But the paleoclimate data, which went back up to a half a million years, covered all these different ice ages and then warm periods and an ice age and then a warm period and an ice age,

like going in and out these big climate change cycles. But the cycles seemed off, and it wasn't until further research decades later done by Gina and her team that they discovered that some of the dating methods used decades earlier interacted with the groundwater, making the dates off, and they were the culprit for thinking that the Earth's cycles were a little off. And for more on that, you can see Gina's paper, Reconciliation of the Devil's Hole Climate Record. So thanks, Devil's Hole Number Two, Mammalary Speleothem Paleoclimatology.

So that was one super cool, exciting thing that we kind of found out, I guess, in recent years. And do these caves, because they're, I guess, protected from the atmospheric elements, even though things like leach down into them. Do they act as kind of a time capsule or are they just as dynamically changing as everything on Earth? Yeah, they are very dynamic, but they're definitely working as a time capsule because that water leaves that calcium carbonate deposit. It's not in all caves, but in the right scenario, it will. And then those records can last for hundreds of thousands and millions of years. Then that is a record that's kept underground away from the elements on the surface. And you think about

when a big ice sheet comes through or a glacier or something, that just bulldozes everything out the way, right? And everything that was in its path before it, and then it retreats, and then you have a nice record of when the last glacier came through, but caves kind of sit there, kind of quietly recording the, you know, what's going on on the surface but from underground. But indeed they are also very dynamic as well, and if you go somewhere, say, in the tropics where there's a monsoon every year and huge amounts of water passing through the cave, huge floods going through the cave, then obviously the record within the cave would also constantly be in change and influx.

And how are paleoclimatologists and speleologists, how are they relating that to the climate change that's happening now? Or are you just looking at paleo-paleo way, way, way back? It depends where people are working, essentially. Some people are working on very modern, very young records. We call it sub-annual resolution. So if a stalagmite is growing fast enough, with the chemical methods that we have today, the analytical methods, we can get multiple data points for one year of growth within the stalagmite. And then if that records say a few hundred years old or a few thousand years old, then we can have a very high resolution record that captures the more recent changes. That's one aspect

of kind of answering that question. But then the other aspect is in terms of paleoclimatology, the reason we study it is to improve our understanding of how the Earth system works in the first place. So we know we're heading towards a warmer world. So if we look at times in the past when it was warmer through other processes related to the Earth's orbit around the Sun for instance, or times in the past when it was warmer, through other processes related to the Earth's orbit around the Sun for instance, or times in the past when there was naturally more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than today, then we can tap into those periods in the past and learn from them, learn about the weather systems, learn about how high sea level was,

basically the different workings of the environmental system on Earth at times in the past when either it was already warmer than today, when greenhouse gas concentrations were higher than today, or even times in the past when the climate has changed very quickly. So then we get an idea of how fast sea level is even capable of rising, you know, these kinds of ideas. So that's kind of what we're doing as paleoclimatologists, trying to improve our understanding of boundary conditions, mechanisms, rates of change, these sorts of things, which then go into predictive models for the future to help us improve what we could expect to happen in the future.

How do paleoclimatologists speak about folks who might think, hey, there's been ice ages, there's been warmer periods. This is just another cycle and it's not anthropogenic. Is there just a big sigh and a face palm or how does that handle scientifically? You should have seen my reaction when you asked that question. Just... Yeah, there is a little bit of that, but all we can do is just keep on with our mission

of explaining, yes, there have been ice ages in the past, and yes, the climate has always been changing. And yes, that's how we know that what's happening today is completely not natural. We know what should be happening. And we also know what the consequences are of what's happening today by looking at other periods in the past. So it doesn't deter us necessarily and we can only keep working with that message of why we know it's not natural today and why we also know this is really bad news for the future if we don't do something about it.

this is really bad news for the future if we don't do something about it. Right. I imagine there must be a lot of news headlines and opinion pieces that just really would get your goat, but that's amazing that you just soldier on and keep doing the work you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask you some questions from listeners? Yeah. And of course, before we do, we like to just flutter some coin into a cause and this week Gina selected the British Cave Rescue Council which promotes the exchange of information between member rescue Organizations to help get more cavers in peril safe and sound above the ground Now you can find out more about the British Cave Rescue Council at the link in the show notes And thank you to sponsors this show for making that possible

Okay, let's dig deep and unearth all of your curiosities. Dandaman asked, Hey, Ali, big hole fan here. I had a question if there are separate experts for like ice caves, like are they clicky or are they the same like cave experts as the rocky caves? Oh, that's great. No, um, they're not clicky. No, they're definitely not clicky. But yes, there are different experts because you know, it's a different science study in ice to study in rocks. And we can't all be experts in everything. And we may all meet up together every few years at a very big

conference and hang out and stuff. But ultimately, yeah, there are different experts, I would say. And it's not to say that we can't work together and branch out and that sort of stuff, but yeah, there's definitely different experts for different topics. That makes sense.

Now, what about long caves? You wanted to know specifically Josie Brotherford, Mouse Paxton, Tia V, Carol Young, Sharon, and first time question asker Miranda Ramirez. A lot of big and long caves are found in the tropics, for instance, in China, in Borneo. But then you go to the Yucatan, for instance, and there are hundreds of miles of underground caves that you would need to dive to get through most of them. And that's a very different geology and that's sustained as well.

But the longest cave in the world at the moment, I believe, is Mammoth Cave in the USA. And so it comes down to the geology basically and the climate. And yes, Mammoth Cave in Kentucky is not fronting with the name Mammoth. It really is the biggest known cave system. And as of 2022, cavers have explored 426 miles of it. And Courtney Hudson, a listener, is based in France and asked about caves at elevation. And it turns out that in central Peru, there is a limestone cave called Cacama Chai

that is over 16,000 feet, or nearly 5,000 meters above sea level. You got to get that high to go low. And these caves at elevation also in seismic zones. And you may like that, but friends, I don't. And also since absolutely zero people asked me, but the scariest cave in my mind may be in Southern Colorado. Not only because it's at high elevation and it's slippery and it's a very crisp 35 degrees Fahrenheit in there and there have been a lot of falls and rescues, but also people have found human skellies in there. This is called Spanish Cave.

One of the skellies was said to have been dressed in armor and wearing a chain around its neck. Also, some people say that they found gold hidden in there. I'm just saying, it sounds like a great place to die of a heart attack, if nothing else. Now, I said I would stop being scared earlier and I lied to you. You mentioned scuba diving and Erin Ryan asked, they're from Vancouver, they were wondering, As a scuba diver, what is it about cave diving that makes it so much more dangerous and so much scarier than regular ocean diving?

Do cave divers, are they able to know where their twists and turns are and where these really narrow passages are? Yeah, there is a fantastic couple of books written by Rick Stanton and John Volantham who were involved in the Thai cave rescue a few years ago. And I recommend those as incredible reads to learn about the mind of a cave diver, I have to say. You can see Rick Stanton's Aquanaut, the inside story of the Thai cave rescue, a life beneath the surface and or 13 lessons that saved 13 lives, the Thai cave rescue

by John Falathan. And even if you are a cave diver, not all caves are the same, of course, or the waters. It also depends again where you train. So for instance, if you're training in the Yucatan or the Bahamas where the caves are also got beautiful, pristine, clear blue waters, but it's very easy to kick up silt and not have very beautiful, pristine waters anymore. Obviously, they always have a line that they have to follow in case that happens. But then if you train in the UK, as you would find out from reading these books, basically you don't see anything from the very start. It's all just muddy and nasty and horrible.

Oh dear, oh dear. These cave divers very much were dry cave as to start with. They really understood cave systems first and where caves go and how caves form and where you find the way on and these sorts of things before they turned to cave diving. And only then once they turn to cave diving and they're finding their way through the dark without really an escape route because there's a ceiling above your head, then in these cases they're just the most fabulous people in caves basically. They know how caves work. Yeah. I'm going to give you the shortest summary of what happened to that northern Thai cave They're just the most fabulous people in caves, basically. They know how caves work. So, yeah.

I'm gonna give you the shortest summary of what happened to that Northern Thai cave in that late June of 2018, leading to a mission that the rescuers themselves have called experimental and hideous. So, a soccer team, the Wild Boars, 12 boys aged 11 to 16, they were headed to a nearby cave after practice

in their uniforms with their assistant coach in his mid-20s to have a little birthday party for one of the boys. Now the caves are usually closed for a few months during the monsoon season in July and August, but it was a week before July they were open. It was late June. They figured they'd be fine. Obviously we know they were not. So a monsoon rips along. It floods the cave while they're in there and they have to try to find the small dry incline as shelter as the water comes pouring in. Now this cave, it's called the Cave of the Great Sleeping Lady. It's poorly mapped, it's at least six miles long, and over 10,000 volunteers joined the

rescue efforts. They tried to drain the caves, they tried to drill in through the side. Divers eventually got to them and gave them supplies and Mylar blankets and checked on them. And all these people hatched plans to get them out. Now they were over two and a half miles from the entrance, flooded, and they were under 2,000 feet of rock. So drilling wasn't going to happen. What ended up working is that they had to anesthetize these boys and the coach with

a combination of ketamine and Xanax to guide them underwater masked with divers through these flooded narrow passageways. All the boys were saved along with a coach who apparently was at one time a Buddhist monk and was able to keep the kids calm with meditation, which is honestly the best advertisement for meditation I can possibly think of. However, one Thai Navy SEAL died during the rescue and another ended up perishing a year later from a blood infection contracted during the rescue.

And I was looking into this and really sadly last year, one of the boys who had moved to the UK on a soccer scholarship died, which was ruled a suicide. Also, there was some drama with the guy who bought the Twitter website who said that he would build a submarine, but obviously they were like, dude, it is literally safer to give children a horse tranquilizer and drag them underwater for several hours. Thank you, though. Now, for more details, Nat Geo made a documentary called The Rescue that, even though you know the outcome, is still beautiful and nerve-racking. And I just can't believe that it wasn't a bigger tragedy.

So hats off to everyone who is capable of cave diving. I'm not one of you. And I'm glad you are. Now, speaking of such things, a few of you patrons were a little spooked by caves. Andy Guarnaccia and Lucy Antonelli, they wanted to know in Lucy's words, is that map of all the missing people in the US with all the caves matching up real? Are people being taken into the caves? Caves

are so fucking scary, Lucy says. And I asked Snopes, who said that those maps aren't just of missing persons, they are of missing persons who quote vanished under strange circumstances near national parks, which is why they may bear such an uncanny resemblance to the cave maps. So don't worry about it. Now many of you wondered about safety though, including first time question askers, Rachel Robinson and speleophobes or spelunkaphobes, Magsaroni, first time question asker, Eric Masterson, Clover, Valerie Kitty, Ashley Rocket, Mariah Schobes, Magsaroni, first time question asker, Eric Masterson,

Clover, Valerie Kitty, Ashley Rocket, Mariah Schemmel, the joyful Spitfire, Sean Thomas Kane, Kareem Godralt, Jacob Shepard, Carol Young, and Mariah Walser, and Steven Moxley, who wanted to know how do professionals stay safe in new and unexplored cave systems. And Steven says, stories like the Nutty Putty Cave terrify me. And just a side note, the 2009 Nutty Putty Cave terrify me. And just a side note, the 2009 Nutty Putty incident in Utah in which a man named John Edward Jones was stuck upside down in an unmapped and narrow passageway and ultimately died due to the physical strain on his body. That resulted in the cave being closed with him still entombed

as a memorial. But through all this, patron Addy Capello, I can hear you Addy screaming at me right now because you asked, how do we help battle the scary awful cave stigma? I'm a wildlife biologist, they write, and I'm always trying to fight the fears with good education. Now, we've already heard some stats on caving deaths.

Turns out, perhaps they're lower than we would all think. And China has been on multiple continents caving, sometimes hiking in days at a time to remote uncharted locations. Is caving really that scary, or are we just on edge because of these rare but really gripping stories? As someone who works in caves and explores these things and goes through these narrow passages in the dark and maps them, do you feel like you are braver in your everyday life?

No. Because I feel like what you do is the bravest job like in the world. No, no, I'm doing what I absolutely love. I started when I was a teenager, so for me, it's not it's not brave at all. Now, you know, you should see me on a ski slope. I'm just like, I can't ski to save my life. I hate it. And I'm so scared and petrified. I just

cannot stand it at all. And now I have to teach my three year old daughter to ski next winter, which I'm not looking forward to. Yeah, I don't see it as being brave. No, not at all. Well, beg to disagree. Biscuits and Gravy, first-time question asker, and Zach Everett, also first-time question asker. They asked about if you've heard of the Loray Cavins in Shenandoah, Virginia that have a playable stalactite organ. But a lot of people like Maria, first time question asker, wants to know about cave acoustics, why they're so hauntingly beautiful. What is it about acoustics in caves? Why are they so beautiful and what does it sound like in them?

I guess we need a sound engineer to answer that. Yeah, right. But yeah, no, I totally get it though as well. You know when you walk into a huge cathedral or an opera house, it's the same thing, right? They're just these big, huge spaces that are kind of, they're obviously purpose-built for that. So then caves are just Mother Nature's way of doing that. But I guess there must be something similar to being in a cathedral or a concert hall, I guess.

So, PBS NewsHour, you just heard that clip from them, they did a lovely piece on this organ, which is known as the largest musical instrument in the world, as it spans three and a half acres inside a cave, and its sounds travel all within this 64-acre cavern in Virginia. And no, it's not really an organ, because it's actually a percussive instrument with dozens of these natural formations, some carved to get just the right sound, setting off different notes

when they're struck with a mallet. And with a cave, which is made of nice, hard, usually smooth rock, that sound can continue bouncing from surface to surface, sustaining the notes in that glorious reverb that we all love about a cave. Love it so much. How often do speleologists, when they're alone in a cave with a group, do the echo? Oh yeah. Echo? Oh yeah?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even if I'm in a tunnel with my daughter on the bike, I go, woo-woo, you know, like this and just listen to the echo. Yeah, yeah. And especially if you're in a group that's exploring, that could mean exploring the cave for the very first time. No one's been in there, but also exploring for the first time for yourselves. You don't know the cave, but other people have been there and you can sense this big passage beyond and you shout and you listen. Yeah, that is amazing. Yeah, yeah, we love that.

Amber McIntyre had a great question. How do deep caves have oxygen? Do they have an air supply and do you ever have to bring oxygen with you? Oh, that's a good question. It's not necessarily related to the deepness of a cave. So caves tend to be really quite well ventilated, especially if there's water going down through there that brings oxygen with it. There's normally lots of different entrances to a cave, just not that humans can get into all of them, but there will be holes and fissures and so then there's pressure differences and there's circulation within a cave. Generally speaking, oxygen is not really an issue. It

can be an issue in perhaps more shallow caves where, say, there's a farm above which is not uncommon, especially in the UK, and then you get a load of farm waste that's rotting in a cave that can cause what we call bad air or machinery or something that's leaked into a cave. And it is possible to have what's called bad air in a cave, which is high CO2 levels, essentially, or basically poor oxygen levels. And you tend to get headaches, feel a bit breathy, and it can be quite serious. It can be quite dangerous if you don't realize early enough that something's going on. And especially if you go in a cave and there's a lot of dead and rotting vegetation, that's normally a clear sign that the air might not be so good and definitely to be

a bit careful about how long you might spend there, let's say. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You better bounce. And Anna Lee and some others had questions about microclimates, such as Ali Brown, Leanna Schuster, first-time question askers, Wildlife Tech Grace, Sharon Holness, Rory, and Alyssa Elliott. And Rory asked, why is it so cold and wet?

Anna Lee wants to know, how do caves maintain a consistent temperature once you hit a certain level? There's these ones in Alabama that stay 59 degrees no matter the temperature outside. How does that happen? Yeah, so the general consensus is that caves record the mean annual air temperature on the surface. That's not always the case because there can also be air flows and things. So it's not strictly speaking, but generally they record the mean annual air temperature.

And the reason they do that is because they're kind of equilibrated to the rock. Once you get so far into a cave, the rock is not changing temperature. On long time scales with big climate change, then that rock will change temperature. Like on a daily time scale or even seasonal time scale, the rocks deep underground are not changing temperature. And so the cave air temperature is just kind of like equilibrating with the rock really. A ton of people wanted to know about crystals like Sand, Kieran, Geo Sassy, Christina Weaver wanted to know how often do caves have those gigantic crystals in them or is that Photoshop?

Oh, yeah, no no you have to look up Lechuguilla which is the cave in New Mexico that I mentioned. No caves can have giant crystals. I mean stalagmites for a start are a form of crystal but I know I know the ones they're on about they're thinking of Lechuguilla where there's these huge great big chandeliers and then there's some other ones in Middle Eastern stuff as well but they're not super common. Like every time you go in a cave, you're not going to come across a room with a big chandelier in it.

We do know they exist and they are in a few places around the world. So they're not so completely like sparse. Some of those pictures just look so fake. It just is like these huge shooting wands of crystals. When they came out a few years ago, people looked tiny and it just looked like Superman caves of just gorgeous crystals that definitely looked like Photoshop. Yeah, the Nika cave is definitely not photoshopped. I'm just looking it up now. Ah yeah, Chihuahua, Mexico. They are huge crystals and they are, there are people in the photos

and the crystals are many times taller than the person and that they are correct. That is true, yeah. So these glowing white crystals are longer than a school bus and like three feet thick and jut out at every angle and they've formed over so, so many years from this magma heated water saturated with minerals like gypsum to form these selenite crystals.

And I know that you like want to go there. Maybe you want to take some great fit pics. What a backdrop. Don't even think about hanging out in there though, because not only is it situated in a lead and silver mine, but the cavern itself is over 130 degrees Fahrenheit and can be up to 99% humidity. The photos though, astounding. So trippy. Oh, speaking of.

Cole DB, first time question asker, wanted to know, will you actually start hallucinating after like 10 minutes in a pitch black cave or is that a myth? I think that's a myth No, I don't think so. I mean we always do a fun thing with the freshers You know when you take people in a cave for the first time We always do the turn off the headlights and you know, put your hand in front of your face and like you there's absolutely No chance of seeing anything It's amazing, you know, you kind of think that your eyes would get used to the dark like they always do on the surface, but no, they don't. You just never see anything.

Which is super cool, but no, I don't know if anyone hallucinating. That's good. That's a good thing. A lot of people are talking about specific caves that they went to in South Dakota. Kelly Cheever wanted to know, yes or no question from Keely Chavez, they're from New Mexico, home of the famous Carlsbad Caverns. They have malpaced lava tubes, the talus formation. They want to know, are we perhaps the luckiest state in terms of variety of caves? Yeah. Well, yeah, in New Mexico, that's where you've got electric gear. So, yeah, oh, this, you know, they're already in this realm of like, cave competitiveness. Our caves are better than your caves, which is the same all over the world.

Funnily enough, you certainly have some incredible caves in New Mexico, and you should be very proud of them, definitely. And I believe there's a lot of legislation in place to protect them as well, which is fabulous news. Well, on that note, a bunch of people wanted to know about conservation. Looking at you, Stephen Knighton, Sidoni S., Madison Wolfer, and Sarah in Montana. And Joyologist asked, do caves have special environmental protection? Katie Noble wanted to know, why is it illegal to touch the walls of some caves? What happens if you do touch a cave? And Faith Stemler wants to know if there's any proper cave etiquette that people should

observe. Oh, yeah, these are great questions. So of course, you know, there's the don't leave anything in there that shouldn't be left, you know, take photographs and nothing else, that kind of like general rules of being in the wilderness anyway. As I kind of touched on, if we are camping in caves and everything should be brought out at all,

human waste should really be brought out of a cave. When it comes to sampling for, you know, science like what I do, I also very much appreciate and I acknowledge that taking stalagmites is also questionable, which I appreciate, but we also try and do that as minimally as possible. We either take samples that are already broken or we take cause of samples and leave the main thing intact or we do pilot work to make sure that we know the age of a sample before it gets taken. So this is also why some science takes a long time, it takes years because we do preliminary analysis first to see if the

sample is going to answer the scientific question that we have. And then in other caves there's things like the microbiology might be so super important in some caves. This is a big issue, especially in New Mexico, in the Carlsbad region. The microbiology there is so special that it's really important that you don't touch the water or touch the walls because you might contaminate that very unique microbiological system that has been living in that cave for millions or billions of years, you know, so that's really critical not to not to contaminate it in that case. So caves are really special. They're really unique. Anything that lives there has adapted to live

in the dark in those stable environments, you know, away from the surface. And of course, anything that we do down there is quite invasive. So we just have to step back and remind ourselves that this is a very unique place and we have to be as conservation minded as possible. Are a lot of caves just open to people or are only select ones that seem more stable and less delicate in terms of that microbiology? Or is it like if there's a cave you can go in it? No, it depends where you are in the world. There's a lot of caves in, for instance, in the UK, you can just go in them. They're actually in guidebooks and things. I don't recommend

it if you're not experienced, but you know, there's a lot of caves that don't have gates on and there's actually nothing to stop you. But like I say, I don't recommend it. Then in other places, there may be gates on caves and you need to stop you. But like I say, I don't recommend it. Then in other places, there may be gates on caves and you need to know the right person or have access to the key to get in there for various reasons. I did a very innocent search on how to get keys to explore caves, thinking it would probably lead to some resources for parks departments or speleological associations. But all passageways toward that information led to message boards saying things like, okay, so today I got two keys to caves from a toad and from a chest.

And key frog make a noise that sounds like coins being dropped when they move around. And you need bone keys in order to open doors and chests. Ogres in that same dungeon drop those keys. So maybe for newbies, you can, as a first step, stay home and you can explore through the multiplayer Nakara Bladepoint game. Or you can start with publicly accessible caves out of doors. Or then there's the show caves as well, which of course are a great place if you just want to get underground and just get an idea of what it's like to be in a cave. And then if you find actually that you do quite like being in a cave and this is something for you, then get in touch with your local grotto or

caving community. And they're a very welcoming and friendly bunch. I'm sure they'd be happy to have any newcomers along that they can show off their favorite caves to. And then you get to go in the really cool places that need a key. But favorite caves to and then you get to go in the the really cool places that need a key But you want to you want to make sure you get the right pals and yeah, you get some experience Josie Rutherford Wanted to know what is the most famous cave in pop culture and Kendall M Wants to know if you have a favorite horror movie that takes place in a cave Madison Armand wants to know what you think of the movie Descent.

I'm stuck! I can't breathe! Okay, Sarah, you have to calm down. Or if you prefer cave documentaries, if you have a favorite cave documentary. Great. The most famous cave in pop culture. Oh my goodness, I don't know. Yeah, I mean all cavers love a cheesy horror film in a cave, you know, because we sit there and we sit there and laugh at everything and tear it apart. So we're actually the worst people to watch a cave-in film with because actually we treat it like a documentary, which of course it's not.

Yeah. And yeah, I love a good cave-in documentary as well, though. There's always a limit with what a documentary can do in terms of, how do I say this? It's not the same experience as going in a cave, basically, you know. There's always limits to filming and if there's a big film crew and all these sorts of things, then it's just not going to be the same really as if you're actually in the cave yourself. Yeah. The smells, the snugness, the humidity, the lack of it. Yeah.

You know, Philip Dunson had a great question about navigation. How do cave explorers crawl through the tiny tunnels the first time, not knowing if it opens up on the end with no way of turning around. It always seems terrifying, they say. Yeah, I won't give it a go. You give it a go? Yeah. It was much later in Austria as we were wrapping this up, and a fellow speleologist joined

our meeting, a very sleepy and precious one who is having a tough time sleeping. And it's okay if she's in the background. It's a family affair. She's a caver too. Here we go. She's got pepper pig, so hopefully. Oh, perfect. Last questions. I ask are always really easy. You can say in one sentence, hardest thing about your job, favorite thing about your job? Oh, hardest thing about my job is leaving my daughter Madeline behind, who you can hear crying in the background. And the best thing about my job is getting to visit places that very few people on this planet gets the opportunity to see.

It's such a privilege. And then to research these places and answer incredible questions and just spend that time with great colleagues, you know, trying to piece things together and work it out. Like I absolutely love that when we get into a great conversation for a few hours and just like look at graphs and data. Well, you're the bravest person I know, even if you don't think so. I'm in awe. Thank you so much for talking to me and spending this time to get to know your life in caves. Thank you so much, Allie. It's been fun. It's been really good. Thank you.

Thank you so much, Ali. It's been fun. It's been really good. Thank you. Oh, amazing. Okay, I will turn off recording. You can put Madeline to bed. So ask dynamite people some deep questions because it can lead you down some real rabbit holes. Now, thank you so, so much to Dr. Gina Mosley for joining us today and sharing all that knowledge. You can find out more about her work linked in the show notes, as well as her charity of choice is linked. More links will be up at our site via alliward.com slash ologies slash speleology linked to the show notes. We are at ologies on Twitter and our ex, I can't stop, and Instagram and I'm at Alli

Ward on both. We also have free amazing kid-friendly versions of ologies called Smologies. Those are also out once a week. They're on their own show feed. You can search Smology's wherever you get your podcast. You'll see a new green logo by artist Bonnie Dutch, who is also available for great commissions and pet portraits. You can search out Bonnie Dutch, B-O-N-I Dutch online to find her. Erin Talbert admins the Ologies podcast Facebook group. Aveline Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly Ardwire does the website.

Noel Dilworth is our scheduling producer. Susan Hale is our director of managing everything. It also did additional research on this episode. Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio edits. And Jake Chafee takes over as lead editor for this episode as Mercedes is out exploring the world for the week. An additional editing help was provided by legally wedded

Jared Sleeper of the Webby award-winning Mindjam Media. Nick Thorburn made the music. And if you stick around till the end of the episode, I tell you a secret. And this week, my secret is that I have gotten more into scents the last couple years. I just feel like, ooh, I like this little perfume. I get a lot of like perfume samples, and I'm like, ooh, what's this?

And there's this one scent, it's called Neroli and it's kind of like a lemon blossom. You know when you walk past like an orange blossom or a lemon blossom tree and you go, I want to have that so bad. It's like that. It's that smell. And I found this perfume. It was neroli scented. It's so good.

It smells so citrusy. And I couldn't place what it smelled like for a couple of days. I was like it's so good but what if there's something nostalgic and then I realized I don't know if they still make them but when I was a kid they had these air fresheners that you could put anywhere called stick ups I think there were like these little discs like as big around as like the top of a soda can and you could just stick them under the toilet and they'd give a nice fragrance there was a lemon stick up that smells exactly like this perfume

and the perfume mellows it becomes softer but when you first spray it it smells exactly like a toilet air freshener from decades ago and every time I spray it I gotta go it's gonna get different it's gonna change and now I should look up whether or not they still make those air fresheners I wonder if they do are you still still listening? Are you still here? I don't know. I am. Let's look it up. Oh they do stick ups. They make them. They're made by Air Wick. Sparkling Citrus. I should order some and and really see how similar they are.

This perfume was not inexpensive. It was a bit of a treat to myself on a very low week. And so I should get it and see. But yeah, I still love it. It just smells like a toilet sometimes. Okay, bye bye. Dermatology, Homology, Cryptozoology, Litology, Nanotechnology, Meteorology, Metropatology, Nephology, Seriology, Stereology.

Enjoy the cave.